 Hello and welcome to a 2022 panel discussion for St. Lucia Pride 2022. We're having an awesome time here in studio already and it's my pleasure to welcome you all into this discussion. It's going to be an awesome day. My name is Franny. I will be your host and well moderator for this panel discussion today. I'd like to introduce you to our panelists and then I'll give you an insight into what exactly is going to be discussed today. So this afternoon we're joined by some amazing, awesome, very energetic youth who are eager to engage in some helpful, useful discourse today. I will begin with Dania Abraham. Dania Abraham is a writer, poet, and advocate for human rights with areas of focus spanning LGBTQ rights, women's rights, and equality for women in sports. She is currently the communications officer for United and Strong, a solution-based LGBTQ rights organization and the content strategist for supporting girls in sports where the focus is on raising awareness for gender equality in sports. Welcome, Dania. We move on to our other panelist, Randall Theodore. He has actively been involved in human rights and sexual reproductive health and rights advocacy from 2014 and is currently the communications officer for the Eastern Caribbean Alliance for Diversity and Equality, E-C-A-D-E. He holds a certificate in gender and development studies from the University of the West Indies, Cave Hill Campus. He is also the assistant secretary for the Commonwealth Youth Peace Ambassadors Network, Saipan, and he is in the Senlucia chapter and he's also a member of Do Something Different. This is a nonprofit organization assisting underprivileged school students in St. Lucia. However, his main focus is LGBT and women's rights advocacy. Welcome, Randall. Thank you, Randall. Our final panelist today is 27-year-old Jakub Nesta from the community of Garibabono. He is a gold-driven and ambitious young man and is the former Caricom Youth Ambassador and the current USAID Youth Ambassador. 2020 to 2021, he was the youth parliamentarian for Babono and also the past second vice president of the Castries Central Youth and Sports Council. He's also served on the Youth Development Committee for, yes, on the Youth Development Committee for the Babono Youth and Sports Council and the past youth ambassador under the NYC Youth Ambassadors Network. He's a past student of the N triple secondary school, Sir Arthur Lewis Community College and the Edinburgh Napier Mount St. Vincent that's the Marconi International University prior to his current institution, which is the University of the West Indies. He holds many diplomas in various societal issues and youth developments and he believes to foster change, one must be willing to learn and have an open mind to the world around us. He enjoys anything to do with youth work, volunteering, learning, teaching, development and wildlife conservation. Let's welcome Yaku. Thank you, thank you so very much. I hope you guys are clapping at home, okay? While you're watching because I'm fighting the temptation in studio Yonam Extra. So today this is, well, this is a necessary discussion but we're really happy to be able to celebrate as part of the 2022 Pride activities. I'll just give you a brief summary before we enter this very important discussion. Here, and especially at 758 Pride, they always speak about the emotional and psychological wellbeing of young people and it has been recognized as an important part of their overall health. This is especially relevant for those who are visibly different. 758 Pride has chosen to host this panel as a necessary part of advancing the conversations in St. Lucia on how young people can develop resilience to cope with a variety of challenges. This discussion also seeks to explore the role of family, the education system, government, generally and society in contributing to the shaping of well-rounded healthy adults. It also seeks to propose culturally appropriate interventions including bystander and peer support and that's where you come in. This discussion again is part of the 2022 LGBTQ plus Pride celebration events which spans from what it started on August 26th and well it culminates to the August 29th under the sub theme, hope for a better tomorrow. The main theme as you would have seen on social media and the various websites and other platforms is persist with pride. Really excited to be able to have this discussion here today on NTN and GIS and we do thank you all for your support thus far. Panelists, I take you into this discussion. We're gonna start, we're starting big, okay? We're gonna start strong and you guys at home, feel free to send your questions and we will answer here in studio as best as possible. So panelists, any one of you, what is the biggest or most common misconception that you have heard about LGBTQ plus people? Biggest misconception? I think I can go ahead with that. Okay. So the biggest misconception in today's society is that you can tell if somebody's from the LGBTQI plus community. For example, if a guy is too infeminate, the voice is not really masculine, he doesn't sleep around it, how many different women, et cetera. And if a girl is considered to be too masculine, one might consider them to be either gay or lesbian, et cetera. And the other thing is that gays are really flamboyant, but where did that misconception come from? It's really beyond me because at the end of the day, are we really going to judge or provide discover without really understanding why this person is this way? So for me, that's a huge misconception and it is something that even happens in the workplace and in the education system where people perceive you to be a certain way without even knowing who you are. And that's detrimental to have negative effects in this society. So you would say physical appearance. What about you, Dania? Yeah, similar to what Yaakov was saying, I think judging people on their appearance is one misconception because you would have to speak to the person, that person would have to come out to you for you to know how they identify. And to also expand on that, I would say that generally people like to confuse sex, gender, and sexual orientation, which are three completely different things. Sex is leaning towards the scientific or the biological side of things. Gender is societal and sexual orientation is basically who the person falls in love with, who they enjoy having sex with, that kind of thing. So I think if we really name things how they are and really focus on the meaning of words, we would be good. But to say that somebody is, just because somebody identifies as a man, that means that they have to be with a woman, et cetera, that is a very big misconception, I think. Randall, I saw you smiling while Dania was speaking on sex, gender, and sexual orientation. Did you have an input on that? Because for me, I tend to think of some of the misconceptions that I have not based on the physical aspect of the person, but when you listen to people speak or hear them in conversations about people from the community, it's always something, either one, they have been abused at home, they lack a father or mother figuring the household. People choose to be that way. And I think that's the biggest misconception when you say they would choose, because for me, why would somebody choose a lifestyle where they could be either killed, discriminated against the entire life, stigmatized? Like, these are some of the things that people sometimes do not really think of when they decide to, what I say, oh, you don't know, you just choose to be gay, you choose to be a lesbian. Doesn't itself alone hurt people deeper than they think? And when you look at it, it's like, nobody will choose that lifestyle for themselves. Nobody will choose a life where they feel like they're not able to walk freely in their own country. And that I think it's just bad on a whole, yeah. We'll get deeper into that discussion, but you did mention being lesbian or gay. And we know that LGBTQ covers that and a lot more lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer. We also, the plus there goes way beyond that because we have intersex and people who don't even have a title don't choose to be called anything, you know? You guys here as youth, because this is a youth-centered conversation and I know that sometimes we get into the very salacious topics of what it means to be part of LGBTQI plus community. But are any of you here aware, generally, of the laws as far as criminalizing same-sex intimacy? Are you aware of those things? If you're not, is it that you just don't have an interest? And if you are, are you for the laws as they stand? I think I'm going to start on that for me. I am aware of the laws. And for me, personally, I think, before I dig into how it affects the community, I think one thing that I should just put out there and people, the general public of St. Louis should know, the laws criminalizing people from the community that would be sections one, three, two and one, three. All right, all right. I think they're not aware that our laws actually affect both men and women. And I think unless senior citizens get to know that, then they will not think that the laws specifically criminalize people from the LGBTQI community only, because it also affects people in heterosexual relationships. And I guess that is something that our people do not know. And unless our policymakers come forward and actually explain the laws to people, then they will continue with that idea that the law is basically affecting people from the LGBTQI community, and that alone is false. So I guess people just read the laws, understand those, and if you have questions, find one of the policymakers to explain it to you, because our laws just not only affect people from the community. Interesting point. I didn't see that way. What about you, Daniel? Are you, are you well-versed? Are you aware? And what are your thoughts on our laws as far as criminalizing gay sex in St. Lucia? Honestly, before I started working with United and Strong and getting involved in advocacy and activism, I wasn't as well-versed. I had a general working knowledge of it, but obviously with my role, I kind of needed to dive a bit deeper. So the gross indecency laws and the burglary laws are something that not many people know about in, I guess, my age group, my generation. But generally, we do know that there is something on the books that affects gay people, and that's why organizations like United and Strong and EKD, et cetera, exist, because there are laws that criminalize same-sex relationships and, you know, sex among people of the same gender, yeah. All right. And what about you, Yaku? You're smiling from beginning, so I know. I think for me, becoming a youth advocate, I had to sensitize myself as to the issues that would affect young people, no matter their background. And for me, it came from a place of not wanting to seem like an ignorant young person. I mean, you're becoming a public figure, you're putting yourself out there, so you need to ensure that when you speak, you're coming from a place of understanding and knowledge. So I had to educate myself about the laws. And I mean, being the past career commuter ambassador and having worked with so many regional and international organizations, when I speak on forums, I needed to ensure that I represented not only myself, but my country really well, because at the end of the day, you need to understand how essential facts come across to policy makers in other countries. It's not that I would say people don't know these laws themselves, but it's just that we need to be realistic. Legal language, legal jargon is something that many people, persons in the public, would tend to say they understand. But really, actually, everybody has a different interpretation of the law itself. And the law in questions and the laws that govern the LGBTQI persons, et cetera, it's something that we as a society don't really speak about. So really and truly, how are we educating young people? How are we educating our society when this topic itself is kind of taboo? And it's not something that even at the school level, it's thought about. And we need to be cognizant that a lot of our laws are really archaic and need to do what we're with. And we need to be mindful that as much as we tend to try to sensitize people about the laws themselves, we can do that for the rest of our lives. But when you have policy makers now using that same law as some type of chip to gain votes, et cetera, and oh, we're gonna try to get rid of the laws, et cetera, then really and truly, it's almost like, vote for me, I'll try to get rid of the law. But really and truly is that the way we want our communities to be as young people, no. But at the end of the day, do young people themselves educate themselves on things that affect them? I would say no, unless it's not them personally. So how do we get young persons involved? And I think that is a pivotal question that as an NGO and as youth advocate, we always have to be cognizant of how do you get young people involved in the discussion and to feel part of the discussion? Is it that we have to relate what we're trying to say to maybe how it affects them or somebody that they're aware of? Like, and we've realized and we've come to the understanding that a lot of the young people really and truly are not interested in volunteering anymore or joining any groups per se. It's really about making an honest living, et cetera. So at the end of the day, do you as an NGO constantly advocate for persons who themselves are not educated on how this is going to affect them? And are you always going to be the ones getting slandered? I think not. But at the end of the day, we have to come up with putting in solutions. It's true, and you mentioned young people and we're getting into a discussion about some of the concerns from young people who are part or form part of the LGBTQ plus community. As far as that law goes, would any of you say that this is part of something that makes young people very apprehensive to live in their truth, that they are fearful that based on the way that we are popularly interpret this law, is it a general fear or concern that you guys see from your peers, from young people that may be a deterring factor as to why they don't want to live out loud? Can I go ahead and answer that? Okay, sure. I think a lot of LGBTQ people are not really concerned with the law in its entirety. Because we've never, well, I can't speak for myself, I've never really heard anyone being prosecuted because of the burglary laws, et cetera. I mean, yeah, that is what I'm just about to say. We have had the cases, but a lot of young people would not know about it. But at the end of the day, I think a lot of the young people are more concerned with how does society perceive me as an LGBTQI youth, and what dangers are within the community for me? Is my life going to be constantly at risk? Would I be able to get a job as an LGBTQI person? Would opportunities avail themselves to me? And would I not be stigmatized for walking in my trip and being who I am? I think these are more of the pertinent questions that some people have in their mind. It's not really focused around the burglary law and how it affects them. I think most young people would maybe even say that, oh, it's up to the NGOs like United and Strong and EK to really advocate for that component because that's what they're really there to do. And that's where people have the misconception about what some of us as NGOs do. So then, is it a place that, then again, the conversation comes back to being should we now do a resensitization to the general public about how does the law affect them? About how it affects young people? I mean, if a young person who is very flamboyant goes for a job and you're told, I cannot hire you based on your lifestyle, et cetera. I mean, to be honest, I've had a neighbor tell me once I cannot come in front of the doorstep because my lifestyle, they don't tolerate it. And I was like, I was kind of confused because I was wondering which lifestyle they were referring to. So I had to ask the question now. So while you push in drugs and abusing alcohol, what lifestyle do I use? Because I have many. I go to church, I'm an advocate like, be specific. So the judgmental aspect of how people view you as an individual, even if you may not have had a conversation with them, then it ties back into everything. So really and truly, how does the burglary law affect me as an individual? I'm aware because I mean, for the love of God, I've done you for four years now. But a lot of young people would not know. And I mean, a lot of young people tell you, well, when I step into somebody, my bedroom is nobody's business. How would somebody know, unless maybe, and then there's the other issue as well. Most people would now bring in the burglary law into context and into discussion. For example, if a video got out and then they'll say, oh, there's the burglary law and these people need to be arrested, et cetera, et cetera. And then that's when as a young person, you start to panic and try to reach out now to the same NGOs that you don't even want to support. So really and truly, it has its effects. It does, Randall. I saw you really eager to chime in here for you and your experience dealing with LGBTQ plus youth. What are some of the concerns? I think the biggest concern that I've received, more or less, is about their safety. You have people from the community, young people that are fearful of just being themselves, even among family members, because you would see in the community, there's a high rate of homelessness. Family members bring out their children when they shouldn't come out as being gay or being a lesbian because we believe in that. You know, sandwich as a Christian society. So everybody's into the church and quoting the Bible. I want to see what the Bible says about homosexuality, go to Leviticus and read whatever they want to with the children and then put them out. Now, when you do that as a parent, think of it really, are you doing anything to safeguard your child or are you putting your child in more danger? And you look at, you have laws that discriminate against people that fall part of that same community, your child falls part of. And then you have that same community, you know, being murdered on the street, being discriminated, being stigmatized. You're now putting your child into that same position. And then, if the child is murdered, you as a parent will now come and tell the television, sorry to see, be a hypocrite and crying, saying, oh, my child is my child. But then you never stayed for like, spend five minutes and reflect on your action as a parent as to what you did to that child. So for me, the biggest thing that I've been hearing is about the concerns and being able to find a stable job, being able to, you know, find a place where they could just be safe and be themselves. I mean, of course, you know, the organization is there, they provide a safe space for the community, but is that enough for that individual? And I think when you go deeper into the situation, that child then could suffer from severe depression, anxiety, you know, then you get the child going into that mental state of wanting to commit suicide and all these things. So I guess there's a lot more bigger picture than what we see on the surface. And unless you actually sit and have conversations with people from the community, you won't really understand the issues that they give from how deep their problems and the concerns that they have as individuals. True, Daniel, what are some of the concerns you're aware of? Yeah, I definitely agree with my two fellow panelists. I think it's an issue with safety. People don't necessarily think about the law as much as they think about their neighbors. And when I say neighbors, I obviously mean the society on the whole. They think about whether people will attack them or call them names or stalk them, harass them, that kind of thing. And also the issue of upward social mobility. You want to be able to get an education. You want to be able to get a good job. You want to be able to fill your career by a house, et cetera, et cetera. So these are some of the concerns that young LGBT, even just people in general who are part of the community, maybe not young per se, but that's something that you have to consider. Are you willing to sacrifice getting the good job, buying the house, et cetera, just so that you can live your truth? Most times you would find people having to choose either or, you see, that they live their life, live their truth, they're happy in a relationship, that kind of thing. Or they are successful in terms of material things, having a job, et cetera. Is a very small number of LGBTQ plus youth who are able to one, live their truth and also have that upward social mobility. So the people who do have that, they're part of the very fortunate minority. So, I mean, we're still talking numbers enough to call it a minority, I think which is what we're very well aware of in St. Lucia. And you always hear people talking about they suspect or they have a feeling that somebody may be part of the community. When persons come to you and maybe unsure how to come out because a lot of people have a coming out moment or story or some people are not even sure how they fit into the community. What are some words of advice you give them? Because I'm sure some people are looking at us right now here having this panel discussion and saying, I don't know, I don't know where I fit in and then if I do find a place here, how do I learn to live authentically in wherever I fit in here? What's some advice that you have given to persons who have come to you for some guidance? Can I start? For me, for me personally, I do not like the word coming out. Because what is coming out? You have always been yourself. There's no reason for you to be like, oh, hey, I'm gay, I'm a lesbian, I be out there so loud and proud about it to let everybody know. Because for me personally, that's not nobody's business if you're part of the community. That's you and I honestly don't feel like you should come out. Because what exactly is coming out? Yakub is clapping for you. Because you have been yourself. It's just that people now need to understand you and accept you for who you are. Because one advice I would give to young people is be true to yourself, be authentic. It takes time before you actually fully accept yourself as being part of the community and that's one when you understand the struggles and you see the struggles or you know of struggles that people have been through. So then you would just stick to yourself sometimes. It's not one to make people see or give any signs that you're part of the community. So then you have, that's what sometimes you feel to us, internal homophobia because you're still trying to fit into what is considered the norm. So unless, so my advice would just be take your time, two things at your own pace and do not rush into wanting to be out there to get time to learn and love yourself first and from there you will be accepted and get a family that you know will just be there with you and support you throughout your journey and for those who do not know why they're fitting, still there is enough time to learn and understand yourself and see where you fit within the community because people don't know. There's a bunch of sexualities out there. We're not going to go into that. You know, just, you know, people and one of the things that people don't understand like you know just being a non-binary person like you know you don't fit within the social norms of male or female and people sometimes think, oh, what is that? But it's just you being yourself and exploring your sexuality and trying to see where you fit in as a person. I think that's just the best advice I can give to anyone. Yeah, we're going to societal acceptance a little later because you know we have to, yes it's good to have these formal discussions but we have to talk from a very realistic point of view as well, you know. And especially as far as young people are concerned, you know for young people sometimes when you try to make a big decision you kind of just take a deep breath and just go for it. And so I feel like that's what the whole coming out process has looked like and been like for people that they feel like, boy let me just put it all out there so I can just finish with that and not have to go through a long draining process sometimes of having to tell people individually. Go ahead, Rano. I think for some people that happens because I guess they're tired of being afraid. Like, you know when people use their shame as an empowerment I think that's what it is. They're like, okay, when they just come out loud and say, hey, I'm gay, I'm proud. That is taking the shame attached to being part of the community and letting you know that I stand full on my sex right and I'm proud of who I am. And I think that's what it is. And that's how I view it personally. Yeah, I'm not trying for anybody else. I have something to add to that, but. You've been very eager in the corner there to chime in. Let's hear you. I don't believe in the coming out component. No. I don't because for me, I tell young people this. Do you disclose if someone that you're having sex with some ex-boy and z? No, that could be coming out and saying, yeah, I'm sleeping with my neighbor or something. It's something private and personal to you that has nothing to do with anyone. And this coming out motion, it's almost like we take the song sung by Diana Ross and them and we, I'm coming out. Like, no, this is not Hollywood. This is not a movie. This is someone's life we're dealing with. So when we're talking about the coming out component as a young person, I always tell young people, you need to think of the dangers after reaching society when you make some decisions. Coming out might be good to you. It would make you feel better as a young person. Maybe some young people, I don't know how that affects them. I don't see the need to disclose again. So coming out might be, oh, I can finally say I'm the, et cetera. But honey, we need to realize we're in St. Lucia. We're in the Caribbean, a place that, you know, boom bye bye was a top hit song and boom bye bye was happening reality. We need to understand we live in a society as much as it seems like it's, it has become acceptable. There are people with their own biases and prejudices that would really look at you and try to get rid of you because they don't naturally don't like you. And at the end of the day, coming out for what? When you come out, okay, your family will give you more money or something. Is there, are you going to win the lottery when you come out? But sometimes, I mean, I don't know. Yeah, but that's not good. It could be. But at the end of the day, coming out might be good because it will let, coming out has a few advantages. For example, if I were to come out and say, oh, I'm here. The type of family I maybe come from might be supportive. The negative is that they won't be supportive. The positive, the negative again, is that the type of job that I would do, if that which is my workplace, we need to be cognizant of these things. For example, I'm a teacher. And if any teacher come out and tell you they're here, parents would start to throw all their clues in the air because they'll be like, I don't want no lesbian or gay person teaching my child. And we need to understand that this is reality we're facing. If you're a nurse or Doctor A, I don't want that gamer or that lesbian to touch me. Or if you have to see them naked because you need to clean them up or something. There is that huge amount of stigma that would affect the person. So really and truly, is the coming out beneficial to you or is it going to be something where the society is going to support you? I mean, we know there are people who are gay or are in the community and they have the support systems. I mean, you take people for who they are and that's how society is supposed to accept you. Would society feel better that we come out with a big, that's like telling me, walk with a big plaster on my forehead saying I'm gay. Would I get a free pass for the bus? No. Would it get me a job? No. So really and truly, we need to be realistic. If I can say, wholeheartedly, there are students I know if they came out today, some parents might kill them. And I can say that on live, I don't know, that's me. I know for a fact that some parents would really kill their child. Some parents, some fathers would beat their child to death. Like you need to think of how this, when you're coming out, I would say if you're coming out, think of not only how this affects you, but your family as well. Think of yourself as a single parent raising a child without any support and you have your own personal beliefs and your child is coming to tell you, mom or dad, I'm gay, I'm a lesbian. In your mind, some parents might accept, but realistically you're thinking of oh my God, the dangers my child is going to experience out there and that is where the lioness mode or the lion mode in some parents would really come out and they would tell you okay, that's what you told me, but maybe don't tell anybody. That's how some parents would take it. Some parents would kick you out of the house immediately. You would swear the mother never carried you for nine months. I've seen it happen. So really and truly, we try to imitate what we see in first world countries and I've always said this, we're a third world nation, we're an SDG, a small developing country. We cannot implement things or take the perspective of first world nations where they have systems in place to protect certain people. If they kick me out today, is government going to give me housing because I came out? No. Would my friends who were always there with me give me a room by them? No. Maybe some, but some might. Well, some might, but you cannot sit there for more than a month because people are going to start to complain. We need to be realistic as young people and for me as much as I expect, I respect someone's coming out. I would tell them allottedly, think of the repercussions. As much as we always say, oh, think positive, positive. Honey, we're living in a real country. We're not living in Alice in Wonderland. I'm not talking about that kind of thing. But speaking of, talking about, you know, the fact that we see it happen in the first world countries, do you think it's become trendy to come out that people who are part of the LGBTQ plus community see that it's so glamorized when they look at the TV shows and they look at social media and you see how many things are attached to it? You know, in the rest of the world, do you think that's what might entice them to want a huge coming out ceremony, especially in St. Lucia? What do you think drives people to want to come out in that way? Sometimes it could be from peer pressure. I remember the particular situation where I had a friend and he wanted to come out and it was really the pressure from the friends that were around him. They wanted him to come out. And I had to say, okay, are you coming out for you? Are you coming out for your friends? Who is it going to make feel more comfortable? Will they accept you more? They already know that you're gay, so what's the difference? So yes, we see it happen in a first world country, but really and truly, I mean, we're in a third world country, we're gunshots, there's just ricochet through your house. Tonight, I can go on the live and say I'm gay. Tomorrow morning, bullets pass through my house and voices from the ghetto playing on the radio won't end because I'm gone. I mean, we need to be realistic, God forbid. I mean, think of it this way. I'm here on this panel, all of us may be doing the 758th panel. We don't know who is gay here or anything, but I mean, one of us here must be straight or something. You, the public- Well, we don't know. Exactly. The public will not know, but one of us could leave this room here, God forbid, and get shut down because society may be saying we're advocating for the rights of the LGBTQI people and maybe they don't want this gay person, you know, and stuff. All one of us may go back to the workplace and be stigmatized because people have the notion that we're speaking about gay rights. I mean, and even coming here, you'd have to think of, you know what you're doing. So coming out is almost like this. I'm coming out, I'm comfortable in my skin, I can do as I please, I can tell anybody that. Maria could tell you, you have to talk to how it is. But at the end of the day, coming out is almost taboo as being gay itself. That's what I would say. So Danielle, I'll ask you just to follow up from this entire discussion that we had. Okay, we're talking quite realistically, guys. You see, some people who may present themselves a certain way. Maybe you see a guy who's walking in a way that he's stepping 60 and a quarter, you know? Like people tell you he has the long hair, he likes his nails and all that kind of stuff. And I think it's only natural to see somebody and make an assumption in your head. What do you do as a person in society if you suspect somebody is part of the LGBTQ community? Because we're saying not to assume, but you know for, I mean, we like people business in St. Lucia. What happens when we're that curious? Do we ask, is it a thing where it's okay to ask, do you just group a person based on your, I don't know if you've had that experience, Danielle. What's the approach here from society when you suspect? I think it's very natural to make assumptions in your mind. But as long as you keep them there, it should be fine. But if that person is honestly your friend and you have created a safe space for them to speak to you openly and honestly, they will eventually come out to you. If that is at all necessary. Because I have had friends who have never come out to me, but they have lived their life openly. So instead of coming out, they've brought me into their life. So the whole coming out thing was never necessary. And I think that goes across the board for just coming out in general. You don't need to necessarily come out, but at the same time, people who do want to do that, you know, all the power to them. But if you don't want to do that, that's also okay. You know, you can just live your life, your authentic truth. And the people who matter to you will, they will get on board or they will not. And I guess you have to be okay with that. Now, on this particular topic, I know a lot of what we've mentioned in terms of not coming out. It kind of feels like it's tied in with the fear of the way that society may accept you. Or not. And a lot of the ramifications that come with that to a young person, because this is the youth panel, to a young person who feels that they may fall within the LGBTQ plus community. How could you help them feel confident in their position within LGBTQ? Because like people say, some people don't even know where they fit in. Some people may just have a, and it's not just me, it's a natural feeling that they know that they have and they try to go based on what society is teaching. What kind of confidence do you give to somebody like that? And even some older people who've lived their lives one way for a long, long time, but just knew that there was always this feeling or they always knew this thing about them. What can you tell them about living in whichever place they fall, living in their comfortably? What do you say to young people? Honestly, I would say the kind of the same thing I said a while ago about creating a safe space for people. You cannot necessarily give somebody confidence. It's something that has to come from within them. So they need to find a way to be comfortable with themselves. But us as youth advocates and activists, et cetera, what we can do is help to show them positive role models whether those role models are ourselves or other people. Just find somebody to look up to or some people to look up to. And hopefully one day you'll be able to live your truth and that kind of thing. So you just kind of have to take it step by step and not necessarily rush the process. You can probably look to other people for inspiration of how you can handle different situations, how you can come out if you choose to come out. But that confidence has to be something that's built up over time. So to a young person, I would say, give yourself grace, give yourself time and just understand that things happen at different rates and that's okay. As long as you're slowly but surely building confidence in yourself. The world will open up to you. The world is a beautiful place. Although they are dangerous, as with women or older people, different groups in society, you just have to know that you have to be okay with you and even though that takes time, it's okay. Just stay the course, you know? Yaakub, I see you. We're gonna come to you but time is flying. It's crazy how quickly time is flying past us and I do have some really important topics and you guys can pull your opinions in here. But how can adults, all you big people watching us right now and listening to this discussion and those persons who are in those positions of power, Yaakub, you mentioned, you know, about the election time. It's a hot topic and everybody wants to do something to be part of the change. Those persons, how could they help to build an atmosphere of inclusion regardless of our personal religious views, especially in St. Lucia? How, what would you say to these people and what would you say to your peers as adults? How could we all contribute to creating a more inclusive atmosphere for the LGBTQ community? You guys are using two keywords that you just said yourself. So the first keyword was inclusion. The second one was inclusivity. For me as a young person, I always say that I don't find our society to be one that is inclusive. And what I mean by this is that we tend to take on situations that are not our own. We tend to mind things that have nothing to do with us and if we were of an inclusive society, a lot of, I would say there would be that betterment that's happening in the society. So as an adult, we have people who are policy makers, managers, working pivotal sectors in society. Be of an inclusive mindset. Be a person who practices inclusion. Be mindful that there are people from the community who are very knowledgeable, very well educated. They took their time, they went to school. They want the opportunity just like you wanted it during your tenure, during your lifetime, to be someone, to be impactful, to realize and live their dreams. Just allow someone, just be the person that opens the door for someone. As much as you may not agree with the person's lifestyle, but at the end of the day, just think of this like, if this is my child, how would I want someone to treat this person? Or if this was a family member, if this was me, how would I want to be treated? In this society, we have the notion that what you see is what you get. And we practice inclusivity, including in schools. But really and truly, we don't have the, our society is not one where it's inclusive. I mean, if someone has a disability and is of the LGBTI community, do you know how no offense, how bad that would sound to some persons in the society? After you have a disability, you still have the LGBTI community. We need to have that mental framework in every organization because we need to do this sensitization on a broad scale of how do you deal as a coworker, as a boss, as a supervisor? How would you deal with situations that may arise if there is that stigmatization that happens within your organization? What framework as an organization is there to enhance the inclusive concept within your business? How do we change minds and behaviors within the workplace? Is it a thing where we do organizational behavior and change or leadership and innovation in the workplace? I mean, I speak about it like it's something that's very easy to accomplish, but then realistically speaking in St. Lucia's context, we know that when you throw water into the bucket in St. Lucia, the bucket boosting because they don't want the water you send in inside, St. Lucia doesn't really want to accept change. No, we need to be honest. St. Lucia's are not a type of people to accept change. We're stuck in our old ways. And we need to understand that for us to practice, for us to accept that inclusion is something in the society, we ourselves need to practice it ourselves. As on a personal level? On a personal level, we need to be non-judgmental. We need to come to a place of understanding and trying to help this person. And as NGOs ourselves, I think we can do better where we ourselves, we've been doing this advocacy for so long, so we should have a toolkit or some kits in place to go into organizations and do the sensitization and work alongside organizations. It's not up to them. We've been doing it for a while, so we're more knowledgeable, but it's just getting that time to fit ourselves into that business so that we can sensitize persons about how do you practice an inclusive office space? Or how do you breathe that type of environment? How do you foster change in that environment? So I think there's a lot of components that come together and there's a lot of key persons and key sectors in society that would need to come together to ensure that this dream becomes reality. I would be more than happy to be part of the problem. Of course, I could hear the enthusiasm. Randall, quickly from you, tell us what can we do as people, as human beings, what can we do to create that space? Right. Let's start by just giving people a space at the table. You have policymakers. I mean, we could start from the youngest organizations, at least having people from the community sitting on your board to make decisions, to be part of the decision-making process so that they could advocate for people of that community. The National Youth Council, when elections, at least somebody from the community, at least be an inclusive National Youth Council, at least have somebody from the disability communities on the board of the National Youth Council, somebody from the LGBT community on there. That's you already creating an inclusive space for people so that they could see they represented. You know, giving people from these communities a space on the policy-making table to sit with politicians when our policymakers, when they're making these decisions so that they could hear the concerns from the people of these communities and see how they could now write policies that could protect people from the community. And like Jacob said, all these business places, ensuring that your laws or your rules for the workplaces that are one that is inclusive, have this no discrimination policy within the workplace. And of course, some things that we sometimes don't want to admit, those impositions of power sometimes could still as well be part of the community. But because of societal, you know, all these issues, even societies and whatnot, they sometimes restrict or like, you know, afraid and stab these laws and things that allow their workers to discriminate against those they deem to be openly gay or they have been living the work spaces. So just doing these small things, and I mean, sometimes like Jacob said also, as from the NGO space, sometimes no one to move from rhetoric to action. And you know, when in a meeting, you do not want to give us a meeting, I'm here for that meeting. So you know what, let's have a conversation. Because you know, in most cases, you'll get people going to this policy-making, sending letters, letters after letters after letters, saying, oh, here, I'm busy, I can't meet with you today. Let's try next week, next week. You call, oh, yeah, we have to postpone again and keep on going. So I guess it's something that we could just look at and see how doing these small steps could make a small, a more inclusive society that is. Agreed. I feel really bad later, we have to cut the discussion short because there was a rebuttal over there on the other side of the table. So producer, it looks like we're gonna need a part two to this seven, five, eight pride discussion here. I know that there were lots of comments online from the viewers and engaging in some rich discussion online, you know? And it's really nice to see that you guys are so, so very much involved. Producer has actually given us a bit of good news and said we have 10 minutes. So yeah, so let me get through the comments and then we can hear from Daniel because I'm really excited to hear her take on what we can do in society and make things better. But Janika posted online that it is my sincere hope that the government of St. Lucia will not just limit their support of the rainbow community, she calls it, to hosting panels, but commit to tangible actions. Like you were saying, Randall, tangible actions such as the repeal of discriminatory colonial era anti-Buggery laws. Don't wait for the court to strike it down. Show some spine and be proactive. Snaps for that? That's right. All right. As he said, we need more diverse conversation. It's needed. Let's open the discussion. Kenneth left a comment. He says, is this natural that you cannot bring forth life, the greatest gift? And Sany responded saying, as for your question, you are aware that there are straight persons, straight, obviously meaning heterosexual, straight persons who cannot give birth and some straight persons also take the stance of not wanting to have children. I could only imagine the comments that followed that. I think I'll go in the comment section. I'm going to go to the comment section myself. I really want to have some. Zia says. Right, so that was that discussion. Don commented saying that in this day and age, we should accept people for who they are. I see some lovely young persons speaking right now, and I bet this is not easy for them to do. I can tell you that we had a little bit of discussion before we started this official panel discussion, and I think for at least one or two of us, very easy for them to do. They've been waiting for you all, okay? But I'm happy to be able to have this conversation with all of you today. Daniel, we were talking about what we can do in society to create, like we've mentioned here so far, this inclusion. Randall spoke about having the space on the table. What are your thoughts? What can we do in society? What can the people who matter actually do to include or to accommodate the LGBTQ plus community? I think making it known that you are willing to, number one, recognize and accept diversity. That's where you start, basically. So whether that's in terms of race, sex, sexual orientation, whatever the case may be, when people realize that, okay, this is a person who is open to different people from different cultures, different ideas, different opinions, et cetera, then people would gravitate towards that. But if you're always making very mean, bigoted statements, et cetera, why would somebody feel safe coming to you with the sexual orientation or maybe relationship issues or gender issues, that kind of thing? So if you make it known that you are a person who respects, recognizes and accepts diversity, then that leaves room for discussion and possibly acceptance, et cetera. Yeah. Finally here, we wanna use as much of this extra time that we got as possible. People say it gets better. And I know that we've been very critical of society in this conversation, right? And spoken about the way that they have not been accepting, but, and I can say from a personal note that I have seen some change in the conversations that can be had. I have seen some change in some of the behaviors and especially people who are very flamboyant in these behaviors that are tolerated. I have seen change in the family units that are more accepting of persons who belong to the LGBTQ community. So would you say that things are getting better? Can, I don't know. You may have a difference of opinion on that. Do you feel like things are getting better or what, what can, what is so, how are you feeling right now in society as far as acceptance goes? I don't know. Daniel has a go, she's in the middle, go ahead, Daniel. If I may. Yeah, I just wanted to say that it may appear that way to some people, but I think it's just the fact that society is becoming more opinionated at number one and number two. People have a wider audience or they have access to an audience because of social media and maybe the different media, media houses looking for big stories so then they put out that person's opinion because it's controversial, et cetera. But I wouldn't necessarily say that it's more accepting. I think that there are people who are vocal about their support. That's number one and there are people who are vocal about their non-support, right? So, say that again? Yes, yes, yes, right? So, yeah, so I think if you look at, like for example, when Donald Trump, I hate to bring in the US, but when Donald Trump won the elections, right? People like, oh, I'm surprised that people would even vote for him, that kind of thing. But we have to recognize that even though there's some people that are around you who are very much against the same thing, they are people who accept it. So just looking beyond yourself, your circle, you would see that there are people who are strongly against something. Maybe they don't feel comfortable expressing that because maybe they're afraid that you will outnumber them and everybody else in the group accepts that thing or rejects that thing. But I think it's like 50-50 and we might not be able to get our heads around that but that's just the reality. There are people who have very strong opinions and some people just are not comfortable sharing it. And that's what we're hearing now. Rhonda, is it getting better? Well, it's not. It's not getting better, it won't get better unless, we at least have some of the cases among people from the community solved. You have so many cases spanning from 2005 that has never been solved. And the last one, which was known to be a home inside a monk's room from the community, was a close friend of mine that happened in 2015. And I'm not sure if people remember the case of Marvin Anthony Agreston from Grand Evier who was murdered on the Trier Beach. So unless we have, these cases solved, people are being locked up or put in jail for doing these heinous acts. I don't think anything will get better from there because they still feel like they have the power because the laws are still there to commit these acts against people from the community. Unless these things change, then nothing will get better. You won't see anything getting better. I would say though that there is some level of tolerance among some people, but not everybody. And I think one of the things that I think I could mention here is, you know, and that's not the one thing that Ikit has taken upon themselves with some of the other islands on the ground is to challenge some of the laws and you could see the ruling that came out of Antigua to be a very positive one. So I guess when these small steps or these things start happening, then you could see. Now, for example, this is Antigua, the ruling that came out of Antigua, you know, like it has been changed, seem to be null and void. Now, what's the next step? Going to the policy makers to ensure that the new laws that's going to be written is one that could at least provide that space for people within the country and within the community on a whole. And then you look at Barbados who just changed the republic and you look at the new chapter, the new chapter that they're putting out. The laws are that of one that is very inclusive of members from the LGBT community. So when you have these things, you see in this country sticking these small steps to ensure that every citizen is seen as one and equal, then unless this other country is two that are more so St. Lucia because that's, you know, I'm based in St. Lucia. So you look at unless St. Lucia can do these things, then I don't think it will get better. So we have to start there. That's the direction we have to go. Yes, and then we're going to see a change. I think quickly, because I know you have a lot on your plate. Let me tell you, as far as that topic goes, is it getting better? Has it gotten better? No, it can. I'll leave this famous saying by Mahatma Gandhi. Be the change that you wish to see. And I will leave my personal saying. Politicians need to develop a backbone for the development of their country. We cannot opinion it or we cannot do things for our benefits. We're going to keep the country back. And politicians need to understand that there are things that they do and they perceive it to be the things that would foster change, but it's keeping us back as a small island developing state. And we are going to damage the future for our youth. Our youth will not have a future, a proper future. If as a politician we do not have a backbone to at least try to solve certain issues that they face as young people. For example, the simple burglary law that could have been wiped up the book up to a day like today. No politician has developed a proper backbone. I don't know if they suffer from spinal failure or whatever. They really need to straighten their backs and broaden their backs and take them with them from society to do the stuff that would benefit us as a society. I wish I was a politician, I mean, I know people wouldn't like me, but that's not my business. So I wanted to do a job. I'm not going to go down that road. Then I go down the road. But at the end of the day, as a society, we just need to understand that our society is very opinionated. It will not change. And the thing is we empower negative things that happens in the society. So it has become a big issue for us to praise people who do negative things in society. So when we change the mindset of certain people and we put laws in place to deal with what we've already seen in society, then we can maybe take a look and say, okay, our society is getting better. But right now, we have a very corrupt society, I would say. So you say not getting better, not yet. Not at all darling, not at all. Well, you heard it from the panelists and thank you so much for joining us today as part of this panel discussion. I'm sure your mentions are going to be hot. No, not me. No, not me. I'm not your social media, thank you. You said what you said. You listen, I say what I say there. And I know that you guys who tune in via social media have been very much part of the conversation. We do hope that this conversation continues. It doesn't need to be one big moment that we celebrate pride and for the rest of the year, we root for it to all habits. I really hope this conversation continues. 758 Pride is the page that you should be following. You should follow them on all social media. I'll tell you a little bit about them as we close. St. Lucia Pride follows a tradition of global pride celebrations since June 1970. Wasn't even born or thought of. This internationally recognized movement claims time and space for the unapologetic celebration and affirmation of gender and sexual minorities in all of their diversity and multi-dimensional realities denouncing violence and hate. I hope this discussion inspired you to just be accepting at the minimum. And for those of you who could do more and take the next steps, I hope that you could help those who are in the LGBTQ plus community who feel out of place to make them feel like they belong because they do. They're no different than me or you. They're human beings who have made their own decisions the same way we have made our own rights. So on this note, I will say thank you again to the panelists. Thank you to the producers. Thank you so much to NDN and GIS for hosting us here today. My name is Franny. I've been your moderator for today for 758 Pride 2022.