 Welcome to this fish night, fish night eight. My name is Tom Mitchell, I'm the executive director of IID started back in September and I'll be your host and moderator today. And certainly, ably supported by many other members of the team from IID who I'm sure will will become familiar to you over the next hour and a quarter if you've not met them. And so, as you will see today the topic of our conversation is on keeping up momentum for artisanal fisheries and aquaculture. And following the, the year, the AF a year we will come on to talk about. And, and today I'm delighted really to be hosting a conversation really with two speakers that will come to an introduce very shortly. And, and hopefully with an opportunity for all of you with questions or comments or ideas to also contribute over the next hour and a quarter. And, and so really looking forward to a lively discussion and hopefully something entertaining for us as well by keeping our comments brief punchy exciting as well but I'm sure you'll help me with that. Just as a note about why we're getting into this topic and kind of how important it is. I'll shortly pass to Annabelle to talk a little bit about IID's work and involvement in this area but this topic couldn't really be more important at the moment we know that small scale fisheries and aquaculture are critically important for livelihoods and nutrition. We know that millions of family in fact, 7% of the world's people at least partially dependent on small scale fisheries whether for for nutrition or for work. And we know also that living and working on coasts and floodplains that small scale fishers and fish workers tend to be extremely vulnerable to the impacts of climate change or or biodiversity loss. And we also know with the right support that they hold huge potential for transforming food systems to to lower missions and to protect aquatic biodiversity. And with all the threats around and the opportunities we've really got to work out how we can make the most of that opportunity. The recognition of the contribution that small scale fisheries make to sustainable development. 2022 was designated by the UN as the International Year of Artisanal Fisheries and Aquaculture, the IAFA. And so the goal of that year was to really raise awareness of the contribution of small scale fisheries and also strengthen the relationship between scientists and policymakers and actors on the ground to make sure that all the people on the front lines of the challenges are part of those decision making processes. And so during the year, there was a lot of work called to action, really focusing on 2030 to make sure small scale fisheries are protected and restored. And really the focus of this particular event is to look at how we can build on the momentum from that year, and make sure that we can continue with concrete steps. What I'd like to make sure we do in the contributions and discussions that we have that you do your best to help us think about what concrete steps that we could take to maintain together a support for the sector and the momentum that we've had from the year. So before I get to the speakers and as promised, I'd like to turn to my colleague Annabelle Bladen to talk about IID's work on the inclusive blue economy. Annabelle over to you. Thanks Tom and hi everyone, thank you for coming. So as some of you will know we've been holding these events since 2013 in an effort to bring together diverse groups of people to discuss issues around how humans interact with the ocean, and particularly fisheries and agriculture. The idea is to promote the sharing of knowledge and lessons to inspire change towards a more sustainable and equitable future. Now we used to hold fish night in person but since the pandemic we've been online and while we missed the drinks and snacks afterwards we do appreciate being able to include those of you joining us from afar. These events are part of our program on inclusive blue economy, work that aims to support sustainable and resilient aquatic ecosystems, and the people who depend on them through collaborative research and meaningful dialogues. Our overarching goal is to identify and promote the development of innovative cost effective evidence based solutions for the conservation and sustainable use of aquatic resources for supporting countries to meet if SDG 14 left below water. We work at local national and global levels always trying to connect local priorities and local solutions to global challenges. And what this means is that our work typically focuses on people and communities involved in small scale fisheries and aquaculture, who are by far the people in the blue economy. We believe that by reorienting the blue economy agenda to prioritize social sustainability and equity and empowering small scale fishes and fish workers and local communities to lead change. This is how we can make the blue economy agenda a novel and meaningful way to drive progress not only towards SDG 14, but towards all of the sustainable development goals. And that's why over the last few years we've been working hard to increase the global visibility of small scale fisheries, joining several other organizations to support the FAO leadership of IAFA. We produced a series of infographics to raise awareness on the importance of the small scale sector is challenges and opportunities. We advocated at the UN Ocean Conference in Lisbon last year for the sector to be included in dialogues and decision making. And we recently published research on the seafood sourcing policies of big retailers in the UK and Europe, exploring the barriers to small scale fisheries entering international markets and what retailers can do to improve access while supporting sustainability. So with that, I hope you enjoyed today's conversation and I will pass back over to Tom. Thank you, Annabelle. Let me just take a moment to introduce you to our two main speakers today. I'd like to introduce you to edit Rudith Lukanga and Jeremy Percy. In terms of their bios, let me just quickly summarize these are always kind of funny points where you don't know how quite long, how long to go but I would just note that both of them have huge amounts of experience and affiliations. And so edit Rudith is co founder and executive director of the environmental management and economic development organization, a nonprofit organization working on natural resource governance in Tanzania. She holds several positions in leadership of small scale fisher and fish worker organizations, including the World Forum and fish harvesters and fish workers, and the African women fish processes and traders network, and his vice chair of the International Committee of a offer representing the International Planning Committee for food sovereignty working group on fisheries and Jeremy Percy has been a crew skipper and owner of a variety of fishing vessels across UK and Irish waters. He is a master of fisheries protection vessel, as well as deputy director of a sea fisheries committee with responsibility for ensure fisheries management. He was the first real time internet based fresh fish auction in the in England and Wales, and was owner and managing director of a successful fish processing and export company based in Milford Haven previously Jeremy was CEO of the main Welsh Fisherman's Federation CEO to the low impact fishes of Europe platform, and currently CEO to the new under 10 Fisherman's Association for England Wales so I'm sure you'll agree that there are two very accomplished experienced speakers for us to hear from. Now the way that this is going to work is that I will pose an initial set of framing questions to edit Rudith and to Jeremy. We'll go through a few rapid responses from them and then we'll open up the floor to questions and discussions. And with it Rudith, firstly to you, thank you very much for joining us, and you were on the International Steering Committee for Yaffa. Can you give a brief overview of the year, why it came about and what do you think it's achieved. Thank you thank you so much for this question and also for the very good introduction. Good afternoon everyone good evening or good morning depending on where you are at. Yeah, so to respond to this question. Why it came about and what it has achieved. The reasons why the year came about stems from 2014 when FAO members and those the voluntary guidelines for securing sustainable small scale fisheries in the context of food security and poverty alleviation, which are shortly called as SSF guidelines. So the guidelines are a result of a very long participatory process that was demanded primarily by the civil society organizations as a means to acknowledge the important role that the sector small scale fisheries sector plays for sustainable development and to help addressing the challenges that it faces. So recognition of the small scale fisheries grew throughout the development process of the SSF guidelines. And in 2016, the group of Latin American countries in during the FAO's Committee on Fisheries, proposed a dedicated international year of what some officials in our culture. So it was welcomed by the other members and this proposal later on was taken away to the General Assembly, which declared the 2022 as the international year. So, 2022, much as it was overshadowed by the COVID-19, which had an impact on both the possibilities to organize many personal celebrations, and also funding availability, as no dedicated funding could be established for the year because other issues by that were likely more of a priority. So despite this, the small scale fisheries stakeholders all around the world organized many events, including they were about 260 virtual hybrid and in-person events. And this happened at the global level, regional and even at the national level. And there were also over 300 publications that came out. They were supported greatly by the communication products made available by FAO and FAO has been the lead agency through this year. And all these contributed to the achieving the objectives of the year, which include to raise awareness on the significant role that the small scale fisheries sector in aquaculture plays and also to strengthening the interaction among stakeholders, but also empowering stakeholders to take action, but also to build a new and strengthen existing partnerships. So this was really a reason as to why this year came about, continuing to amplify appreciating, acknowledging this significant role that the small scale fisheries sector plays. Thank you. Thank you very much. Just as a reminder for everybody we did ask if you could introduce yourself in the chat so we know who's around the table thank you very much to Rachel for doing that. And for others coming in so please do take the opportunity and we can see who's around the table. Thank you for your introductions. Let me pass to Jeremy and Jeremy asked you, you know you, you obviously have kept track of what's been happening during the effort but can you just talk from your perspective why you think it's been so needed. And equally why, why do we need to ensure that there is much more significant support for small scale fisheries and aquaculture. You're on mute Jeremy buttons I'm in trouble. Yeah, again, good day everybody wherever you are. Hi Tom and thanks so much for the invitation to join the, join the discussion today. I mean I suppose if I'm absolutely honest the effort to an extent past us by in the northern global north I think it was very much focused quite rightly on the global south but in terms of your question generally I mean it is absolutely vital that small scale fisheries have more support and visibility. It's, it's 70 in the UK 79% of the fleet by number I mean we do get into definitions here Tom, you've got artisanal. You can argue that talks about what that means small scale low impact insure offshore, not sure it's it's, there's a whole range of definitions but I think the best definition was was friend of mine Brian I read and who said that small scale is very difficult to define but you know it when you see it. And I think that's true, true wherever you are I mean that the visibility thing is is absolutely key, irrespective of where you are, certainly in the north. Small scale fisheries are undervalued under underrated and under supported certainly by by policy and visibility is the is the absolute key. What I've learned I think over the years is that irrespective of where you are in the world to a very large extent small scale fishers have the same problems and to extend therefore the same opportunities. We ran the low impact fishers Europe platform. We had fishermen from all the way fishermen and Fisher persons, fishes across the whole of Europe, and it really didn't matter whether you were in Ireland the UK the Baltic the Mediterranean. What was very clear is that the vast majority of problems were common to all of us as well, to an extent say the same, the same opportunities. The key really is in terms of the need for visibility and support is to persuade policymakers that we are actually worth the trouble that they have to go to to to provide that level of support. It is frustrating and anybody in this discussion who has a link to artisanal small scale fisheries will share my frustrations that we are or should be viewed as part of the solution. And to an extent we are still viewed in some areas as part of the problem and I, if I'm honest again I think to an extent it's our own fault, you know, whereas larger scale operators tend to be much better resource. They consider themselves businesses rather than fishers and I think that's a fundamental difference. And I can't, I can't talk for edit Ruth's people are members but certainly in the north. I mean if you get to fishers in a room you'll get three opinions and trying to pull us all together to act as a coherent unit is I think an ongoing challenge but unless we overcome that. Then really, we're always going to struggle for that key elements, which when you strip it all down is all about political influence. That's it start and finish, unless we can positively influence influence policy at a local regional national and international level. Frankly, then we really struggling and will continue to do so. Really good. I'm going to ask the next question to both of you which you've highlighted really the importance and the critical aspects of maintaining visibility and so on but but in practical terms what what should we be doing what more should we be doing coming out of the international year and maybe edit Rudith I could turn to you first for that. Yeah, so what more should we be doing is a very good question because we are not yet there. And for me, this question I would like to align it with the implementation of the in the continuity and poverty. Can you hear me, we just you just paused for a moment but maybe you could just repeat your last sentence and then go from there. Okay, so I was saying, I would like to respond in line with the implementation of the SSF guidelines as to what should we be doing more. Is to ask the actors, mainly the states and other actors who are responsible for safeguarding the small scale fisheries and to ensuring that the small scale fisheries guidelines are implemented because the SSF guidelines are the main opportunity, because they provide this consolidated framework for action. And this is grounded in the needs of the communities and provide guidance on how to address, you know the challenges that the communities are facing. So, the way they are situated in the framework of the food security and poverty alleviation, and these directly link to the SSF, I mean to to to the SDGs the sustainable development goals. I think if the SSF guidelines are implemented, they will also facilitate the realization of the SDGs targets, and we have a number of SDGs that can take that they've been implemented or they've been successful, just by implementing the SSF guidelines and this for example, the SDG one, no poverty, SDG two, zero hunger, health and well being SDG three, the one for gender because we are also now acknowledging the significant contribution that is by women in the sector, but also SDG number eight, you know, decent work, the fishers and fish work at the way, the environment that they're working in, what extent is it decent enough, and when this, the SSF guidelines is implemented, it will be able to highlight and address the challenges but also the life below water SDG number 14. So, what more should be done, I would really underline and even bold the implementation of the SSF guidelines. Thank you. Thank you very much and Jeremy, what about from your perspective. You've got one Tom, to be honest, I mean, I think the SDGs, to an extent, have been focused and absolutely rightly in many respects on on the global south, and really the focus has been on there if you look at the workshops that have been undertaken they've all been in those geographical areas. My frustration has been that it's very often viewed when we and even in this conversation when we're talking about small scale artisanal fishers that people almost inevitably look at it from a global south perspective. You know, with the problems, the challenges, the threats, etc. But having dealt with and represented small scale low impact artisanal to an extent, fishers in the global north, and especially across Europe. Over many years, we suffer the same issues, this lack of lack of visibility. And really, as I said previously, being viewed more as a problem than an opportunity and so I think the. There is an opportunity and I don't quite know how we do it the FAO have been active to an extent I suppose in pursuing and advocating for SA SDGs, etc. It's, I think we struggle to be understood in certainly in Europe that the small scale fleet and we tend to deal with small scale as a definition or low impact as a definition rather than artisanal per se. But I think we struggle for visibility and being taken seriously to an extent by policymakers, which as I said previously really is the key. I suppose our solution to an extent lays in our own hands. And I do come back to the same point sorry that I made previously that you know it is very difficult to bring together a vast number of disparate fishers across many geographical areas into a coherent whole I think below impact fishers of Europe the life platform has achieved huge amounts in this in this respect. I'm trying to get people to work collectively. And it comes down to resources and marketing and all the usual challenges, but I suppose really that the main opportunities are there and to an extent they're in our own hands, if only in terms of being able to influence wider policy. So let me just, I suppose, let come back to you first on one of the points you made which is that the SDGs and kind of the framing of them for small scale scale fisheries may be more appropriate to the global south but you know you and I know that there have been significant challenges in the UK with access to markets, particularly related to Brexit and so on and we've got SDG 14b, which is focused on providing access of small scale fishes to resources and markets. And I just wondered in that respect, you know what what you felt was the, the kind of the barriers and options for removing those barriers to be able to support low impact fisheries. Good question, Tom. And it's difficult to put these things into sort of short, short responses I mean I think in terms of the whole market thing is massive. You know, we are currently I am literally in the last few days and weeks we've been talking to larger retailers to the soil association which in the UK is very, very highly respected accreditation body for agricultural, horticultural sides but not so much for consumers seeking to get their accreditation for small scale low impact fishers so market access you can break down really and again it's it's local, but in the UK certainly we have to cut out markets for ourselves the vast majority of consumers fish through the larger retailers and we've lost any number of local fish mongers which is where you normally sell higher quality day caught fish. And we are in the transition here I think and have been for some years because these things don't happen overnight. And the market side of things here is very diverse. Organisations between individual fishers that halt their fish around the local area. We've got companies like the soul of discretion, based down in Plymouth and to some extent pesky fish that try and provide direct sales to consumers online sales and there's a number of issues and routes for that, but it's still a struggle really, which it shouldn't be because we produce probably the best possible quality fish that you can, you can provide. So the marketing thing is multi faceted and particularly challenging and not least in a cost of fishing a cost of living crisis. I mean it is an anomaly certainly in the UK that people consumers only tend to buy decent quality fish fresh fish when they go to food sales places restaurants and etc. And they don't tend to take it home and cook it food service outlets take up a significant proportion of marketing. Whereas perversely when our people go on holiday to Europe, they very happily come back and say they had this wonderful fresh fish and shellfish, most of which probably came from UK waters, strangely. So, you know, we do we still have this ongoing market penetration challenges but we're getting there I think to an extent. In terms of resources that's a whole access to resources is a whole different story and again it could be a very long answer but I promise you won't be. Because we had article 17 when we were in Europe, I mean Brexit started hand-related to fish sales into Europe, we used to export 80% of what we landed here and we still export a very significant amount but the difficulties and the costs involved of skyrocketed post Brexit but don't start me on Brexit I will take this opportunity to apologize to the rest of the world for Brexit, some of us even fishermen didn't vote for it. So when we were in the common fishery policy, which I didn't have a lot of faith in to be honest, we had article 17, which said that member states shall not might or if they feel like it they shall include social, economic and environmental criteria when providing access to fishing opportunities which mainly is his quota in northern context. And that was introduced in 2013 and has never been utilized really, which is an immense frustration because if you speak to I speak to schools and you speak to children and you say that the way that we give access to fishermen is not based on their social or their economic or their environmental benefits and attributes, it's basically who has the deepest pockets or who was given the right to access to fishing opportunities to quota and to fish catches by some sort of outdated system that was basically built certain UK on a pack of lies. And it is this anomaly which I think is probably the most significant frustration in terms of access to resources in we've now got post Brexit in the UK we've now got the shining new Fisheries Act 2020 and that article 25 of that really mirrors article 17 of the common fishery policy in terms of saying that the government must include social and economic criteria when allocating access to fishing opportunities, and that's only been really in for this year and we're already having arguments about with the government about definitions and what it means and what it doesn't mean. And basically they're very keen on maintaining the status quo because in the UK. We are seven small scale under 10 meters sorry I should explain for those who don't know we have small scale 10 meters and under in length and we have large go over 10 meters and the under 10 meters are 79% of the fleet by number so four out of every five boats is under 10 meters in length. Yet we have access to only just over 2% of the quota and we've been fighting unfairness for years. Thank you Jeremy. Really, really good kind of reflections and challenges and just wanting to know in the chat. Thank you everybody for putting in your, your details and affiliations isn't it wonderful to see people from all from from north, northern to Columbia on one side to the Philippines on the other and to to the Finland in the north to Zimbabwe in the south and so on it's really great to see such a diversity of people coming in to be part of this conversation and I think reinforces the fact that there are small scale low impact artisanal fisheries everywhere on the planet, of which all have their challenges in different ways but really fabulous to see everybody thank you for joining. Let me turn to you. I'd be really interested to get your perspectives on you know you're obviously working in Tanzania on the shores of Lake Victoria as well. What do you see from the perspective of access to markets or resources getting to where they need to get to to support those communities. Yeah. Yeah, thank you Tom. Thank you so much. Thank you 2014 be and looking at this target. It is an immense recognition of the small scale fisheries. And it speaks to two fundamental aspects that ensure that people can derive decent livelihood from the subset. Access to marine but also to inland resources is the fundamental condition to allow for such livelihoods be it for subsistence or for marketing. And it is therefore fundamental to ensure that rights to resources for small scale fisheries are secured, including what is referred to as the, the informal or customary rights and such rights obviously also come with the responsibilities for example to manage this resources sustainably as called for also even in the in the SSF guidelines because it calls for responsibility. And recently we had this IHH study that was launched. And in that we learned that it is generally accepted that long term sustainability will not be secured under open access regimes and hence small scale fishers and fishing communities require secure access to resources. However present access to many small scale fisheries remains unregulated. And the tenure rights, sometimes referred to as property rights limit access by authorizing who can use the resources and the conditions under which those resources can be can be used. And they can also include rights concerning the management of resources, typically through some form of the co-management with the government, as well as the rights of exclusion and transferability. So tenure rights I would say they are, they are really the heart of the governance of the small scale fisheries. So there have been both successes and failures with different systems of rights and the details of the approaches that need to be tailored to each fisheries context. The available evidence indicates that sustainable systems of tenure rights that provides users with adequate control in decision making through devolution and decentralization of authority and management, as well as the enforcement of regulations also provide the incentives to strive for responsible management and sustainable use of the resources. So in relation to the markets, it is equally important that small scale fisheries have access to local, regional, and even international markets and this often require action such as capacity development for improved handling, better organization of producers to be able to address power imbalances, but also access to price, access to market information, access to technology. So it calls for a lot of actions that if they are done properly and if these actors are empowered, then this could happen. So SDG 14B, which is in line with chapters five and seven of the SSF guidelines, help in holding all the duty bearers accountable and to take action in this regard. So we need here, be it access to market access to resources, we need actions to be oriented to these actors they should be empowered, they should be supported in order to have supportive environment for them to thrive for them to be able to access both the resources and the markets. Thank you. Really, really fascinating stuff and it helps to outline the kind of complexities of providing the support and resources or getting that right. I just wondered if I could follow up with you and just ask about the kind of gender dimensions here. What do you see in terms of the equity or lack of equity in terms of access to resources or markets. So again, this one calls for what we are seeing every other day, the significant contribution that women have in this most official sector. And if you look at the post have a section of the sector, more than 50% is women, but then they are working in various challenges. They are faced with various challenges, including what I've already mentioned. So in terms of proportionality, women really suffer the most. And that's why different actors and some of us including myself, we are working together to support the women so that they are able to achieve this. We want to really see that we cross that boundary of equity and accessibility. So women are more disadvantaged, I would say, when it comes to access to information, access to resources, access to technology. And therefore gender equity is significant phenomenon to be included in a way that it will bring the women, it will help to address all the barriers that women are facing, so that they could also be put up to be aligned together with men, but also to have their contribution really be felt be acknowledged and be appreciated. Thank you very much. Brilliant. So we're coming to the kind of close of the Q&A with me, but that means it's the opportunity for you all in the audience here to come forward with your questions. Please do pose your questions in the chat here or your perspectives that you want to come in and voice. So please do just type them in the chat as you've typed your introduction, and we'll shortly be coming to you and we'll pick out some questions and hopefully generate a bit more of a discussion but before we do that I just want to touch on the threats posed and the opportunities created by climate change. I'm telling the team this week that my first experience of working with small scale fisheries was in the Philippines, where we were doing work on the impacts of climate change and on adaptation to climate change. My experience was that the small scale fishing communities there were needing to travel further in order to be able to access the catch. That was related to coral bleaching issues related to typhoons, the warming of the seas and so on. We know this story quite well. The impact, the most direct impact it was having and we were working on child centered climate change adaptation issues was on children being pulled out of school in order to access a tour to provide care within the family home. And so I remember very clearly the work that we did with several teenage girls who were not going to school as a result of the fact that their families were needing to travel further in order to be able to access the shoals and that that was causing significant difficulties in balancing care in the home. Now what resulted out of my experience then is that one of those teenage girls was the first ever youth child representative to go to a climate change cop and talk about her experiences. And she shared that experience with a public transport campaigner from the north of England and many other children as well, but they shared a real sense of solidarity on the fact that campaigning for low carbon public transport in the north of England was directly related to her chances of being able to go to school and to work with the small scale communities in the Philippines and it was for me a wonderful kind of moment of recognition and solidarity of young people across the planet towards a common goal. And thankfully the work on on kind of children's voice and youth voice in the climate negotiations has really been amplified recently but that was one of the first instances back in 2007. And so I think the question that I'm coming to as a result is that you know from your perspective Jeremy and edit Rudith, what do you see as the fundamental threats posed by climate change to small scale fisheries but also what potentially are some of the opportunities. And I know that overlays quite a lot of the challenges that you've been, you've been highlighting here but maybe edit Rudith I could start with you. Thank you if I can come in first. Yeah. One of the major challenges is how to make the fisheries and agriculture more visible in the international and more importantly, in the national policies and plans that related to climate change, biodiversity and nutrition. I think we need transformational initiatives that can link climate change, small scale fisheries livelihoods, biodiversity conservation and nutritional needs. So, what needs to be done is to align narratives and avoid fragmenting messages. Reciprocal mainstreaming is a recommended approach, for example, that mainstream fisheries in climate biodiversity and nutrition dialogues and integrate climate biodiversity and nutrition considerations in the fisheries sector. Moreover, adaptation is not something to be imposed I think it is a process that needs to be co-designed and co-delivered with local communities who are the custodians of the natural resources ecosystem because when you're looking to the small scale fisheries sector and the impact of climate change, the small scale fishers whose lives are entirely dependent on fisheries are the ones who are impacted the most and therefore there shouldn't be any decision done about them without them. So this is very, very important and their involvement, them as fishers and the fishing communities is essential for the success in any solution that will be developed to address climate change adaptation and mitigation that are relevant to resources and systems upon which they depend. So, I think that's what I can start with now and I can come in again later. Thank you very much, really good. Jeremy, what about your perspective? Well, to be honest, I feel somewhat slightly embarrassed about talking about climate change, seeing we cause most of it. Yet, people like Eric Rudeth's folk are going to bear the brunt of it, so I apologize now. Having said that, I think we are seeing very much the impacts of climate change here certainly in the UK and Europe and it's brought up a serious number of particularly challenges. From a smaller scale perspective and artisanal perspective, obviously, we don't have the ability to go elsewhere if the fishing in our local area goes down. If you're a larger scale operator, then you can just pack up steam away and find new ground somewhere. So we are really rather trapped in our local areas, which does in fact encourage local stewardship as an aside. But I, for instance, we've got a very clear northward migration of cod, which was one of our mainstays on the inshore grounds. We've seen nearly no cod now in the southern half of the UK and they all seem to be moving north because they're chasing the cocoa pod, which is a small plankton creature that's moving north because of climate change. We used to rely very largely in the southwest on mackerel for caught very sustainably with hand lines. There are very, very few now at the moment talking to a fisherman down there only yesterday, and they're not seeing any at all. So that catch has gone down. So it's having significant impacts. Obviously invasive species is making a very significant impact on some areas, certainly in the Mediterranean, where you've got invasive species really decimating a bit like the Caribbean, I think just decimating local fisheries. The resilience of both fish and fishermen, I think. My biggest concern in terms of climate change is, as I mentioned earlier, you know, we're seeing this sort of lack of fish on the inshore grounds generally. And then to an extent, I suppose you can look at the usual suspects for that overfishing, etc. But I am really very worried that if in fact, climate change and the increase in water temperatures does tend to push fish to deeper cooler areas, so if that's happening in our shallow inshore seas, then we're in very serious trouble. So those are really some of the challenges. I think some of the opportunities, obviously new species is clearly, you know, we've had over the last few years a massive influx of spider crab, which has really in some ways been both a problem and an opportunity, but it was a new species, and it took time to adapt. And I think there's a lesson here as well that, you know, new species might come in, but you're still going to need to identify new methods of catching them, new forms of gear, and where does the money come from for that, and certainly new markets in terms of storage and supply chains. So there is that particular problem and on opportunity, but I suppose my main worry is the resilience. We're in this vicious circle really of where we're getting overfishing of many species in many areas, which tends even small scale people to put in more gear, because you have to put more gear in and anybody who's dealt with fisheries in management or science over the years will know very much you have this vicious circle of those catches go down fishermen tend to put more gear in which is more expensive, and the more gear the more catcher and catch goes down again you just get rounding circles for less returns. So I think the key message for climate change impacts really is to have the support effective fishery management which we haven't currently got, and the support financial, as well as in other ways from from governments to be able to provide us with the opportunities to have that level of flexibility that we will need to take up the benefit from the opportunities and face the challenges. Thank you, Jeremy, really good and I am. I'll turn to some questions in the chat at my moment but it certainly made me kind of react to some of the things that you said which is certainly if climate change action allows us to get access to new resources for adaptation or for loss and damage then you know maybe there are some additional options there but then equally I think we can understand the nature of the systemic opportunity here which is. Many people have understood that using fish meal in animal supply chains is hugely damaging for many many reasons, and that the big move towards investment in insect meal with much lower emissions for example, maybe an opportunity over time to protect some of that the fish meal and reduce the impact and so on so I'm just kind of flagging the systemic nature of the challenges and opportunities here but I think some of the, the questions in the chat also kind of refer to some of the questions in the chat so what I propose to do is to call out some of the people who've passed have proposed questions in the chat and if you're ready to come on camera and introduce yourself and ask the question I'll do them in blocks of three. And then I'll invite edit rudith and Jeremy maybe to take note of those questions and then pick up the ones that they might want to respond to. So let me start off and thank you very much everybody for what really rich set of questions flowing through. So, Virginia, how about I turn to you first if you could come on camera and say hi introduce yourself and ask your question that would be brilliant. Thanks, Tom, and thank you so much for this event. I was wondering if your panelists had any examples to share of examples in the aquaculture sector where stakeholders of a similar value chain, got together to discuss a premium price, because we read and hear time again that the access to markets inputs and the benefits of development outcomes really depend on the money that small scale seaweed farmers officials make, especially women so I'm really curious to see if there is any success stories anyway. Thank you. Brilliant question. Thank you, Virginia. Let me turn to Holly Christopherson. Holly, are you there and come on camera for us. Brilliant. Hi Holly. Yes, Holly Christopherson from the US Department of Labor Bureau of International Labor Affairs. I'm really interested in how illegal unreported and unregulated fishing is affecting artisanal fissures, especially in Africa, if someone could speak to that. Brilliant. Excellent. Thank you very much. And Julia, maybe I Julia, Nikolini, maybe I could turn to you. Hi. Yeah, thanks, Tom. I'm going to have to read my question out but it was about the small scale fisheries guidelines. And maybe getting a perspective from both Edith Rudeth and Jeremy Edith Rudeth you mentioned the importance of implementing them. So from your perspective, how is that going and what some of the barriers and for Jeremy, you know, are these guidelines being talked about in the UK as much as they should be. Could they sort of, yeah, could they contribute to some of that raising visibility of small scale fishes in the UK. Just get to get your thoughts on the usefulness of that in the UK context. Thanks. Edith, maybe I could turn to you. So we have a question on premium prices, one on illegal fisheries and one on the application of SSF guidelines. Don't need to cover them all, pick whichever one makes most sense for you. All right, thank you. Thank you so much. I'd like to start with the question from Julia. And I thank you all for this very interesting and good question that you've raised. So how is the implementation of SSF guidelines going on the use and application. In my experience I think the use and application of the SSF guidelines calls for development of the national plans of action for implementing the guidelines. In section 13.6 of the SSF guidelines, it calls for the countries also for the states to develop national task team which is multi sectoral and brings on board all relevant actors at the national level. And it being deliberated at the international level, being an international instrument, but it's implementation happens on the ground and this is where every other policies, whether be it good or bad, their impact are felt by those on the ground. With the development of the national plan of action which must be a participatory process, then that will guide the whole process to address the needs of the small scale fishers and all the other actors along this small scale fishers value chain in terms of transforming in a positive way their lives and livelihoods. And at the end of the day, it will bring us towards realizing the what the SSF guidelines are calling for, which is the food security and poverty alleviation. And there are some of the countries, such as where I come from in Tanzania, the government has done a lot to facilitate the process. And actually, it is among the pioneering countries to develop the national plan of action. However, there are some other countries where even a mention of the SSF guidelines is not there. So why is the situation as it is, what is making it so difficult to be implemented. And that's why, and that's where I'm making this call at this global level that every country should make efforts to ensuring that the SSF guidelines are implemented because there are tools to us addressing a lot of the challenges that we are witnessing today. A lot of challenges. And there are so many good sections in the SSF guidelines, where if we do make concerted efforts to implementing, then we'll make strides in improving the lives and livelihoods of the small scale fisheries. The question from Holly, I'm not sure if I got it right. She wanted to understand about the IUU fishing, if it's affecting the small scale fisheries in Africa. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so that's also a very good question. Actually, yes, it is affecting Africa because in most cases, according to my knowledge. In some countries they don't have the capacities to, I mean, most of the countries in Africa are small scale. They are fishing in small scale, for example in Tanzania, 98% of our fisheries is small scale. But there are instances where big ships come to catch fish in the EEZ waters of other countries that are not exploiting their EEZ areas. And this is significant and it is affecting because at the end of the day, the small scale fishers, because they are not able to reach far into the deeper waters where they can get more fish. Then their lives and livelihoods is impacted because there are some instances where these big ships, they come and scoop the fish even in there, along near the shores where territories for the small scale fishers. So once they do that, they disturb the whole ecosystem and they impact on the biodiversity, the availability of fish and whenever the SSF, I mean small scale fishers go out fishing, they come out with nothing because the whole system has been disturbed. So this is what I can share because it is really impacting, but also the small scale fishers themselves, despite using eco-friendly, but also there are some who use illegal fishing gears. And in small cases, you won't see immediate impact, but if you bring them together in terms of number, you will also see that they contribute to the impact of fishing, for example, but also distracting the ecosystem, the fish breeding sites, etc. So both have impacts, although the scale differs from the small scale themselves, but in the large scale fishers. Thank you. Brilliant. Thank you very much, Edith. I assume also real challenges in getting enough investment to be able to provide the kind of protection measures against those illegal fishers coming in the inshore for many countries and it requires a lot of, I suppose, policing and technology and resources to make sure that there's the protections in place, but maybe we can touch on that again later. Jeremy, maybe I could turn to you and ask this question about premiums and the version he asked and said, you know, what are the ways in which we could see progress towards premiums for the prices in order to be able to support small scale fishers. What's the experience of that been from your perspective? Well, she means, yeah, thanks, Tom. I mean, just before I start, I mean, I just want to back up what was just said in terms of, you know, I've never ever said that all small is beautiful and all big is bad. What lacking very often is, is management and accountability. So let's not just sit on the fence here and say, you know, we're okay with small scale, we're low impact, we're whatever. No, we've got to have a much clearer understanding of the impacts of big and small. And to highlight that I was at a conference in my very, very few exotic conferences some years ago in Mexico and there was a as part of it. I think it was organized by too big to ignore great people. And there was a photo competition and some beautiful photographs from around the world to do with small scale fisheries fisheries and I threw in the call about eight out of 10 of the photographs at somewhere either in the background has this massive pile of monofilament nets that folk were using and we all know the issues around those. I mean, at the same time, it's always difficult with these things you always finish it thinking I should have said that I shouldn't have said that or another I think you feel feel a very big response in that but just in terms of time. I'm the wrong person talk about aquaculture really in the UK sort of Virginia was asking really in terms of that we've got muscle. Very significant muscle aquaculture, which was devastated by Brexit because it ruined our export trade. The West Coast of Scotland is infested with corporate the own massive fish farms that are doing all sorts of damage. We've got a seaweed growing is now is now growing in the UK. We've managed effectively and we've got a sort of good natural oyster thing so they all have their own marketing issues. I don't pretend to be particularly at all an expert on that I would say on the on the hottest question about. We do have this issue where we have very, very large some of the largest trawlers in the world, operating within a few miles from the coast and scooping up mainly large pelagics and large scale pelagic species, blue, whiteing, mackerel herring, etc, and that they seem to be feeding either, as you were saying earlier Tom the sort of the animal feed side, or at least that's frozen and exported to mainly Africa I think to feed the populations there and at the same time as, as was mentioned, you've got these very large vessels from all around the world. If not fishing in an IUU capacity, still operating under some pretty dodgy agreements with various countries and where there is effectively no resources for or the resources that they're given up spent on monitoring and enforcement and we're all very well aware, very good friend of mine Beatrice who runs the coalition for fair fishing agreements from Brussels highlights the issues where you know artisanal fishing and fisheries are being devastated by not necessarily IUU fishing but certainly by fishing that is not being monitored or looked after. So it's, it is an issue. I don't think we've still got some IUU fishing in Europe of course we have it's the nature of the beast to be honest, but I don't think it's the scale that is elsewhere in the globe. In terms of Julia's question about in terms of you know the guidelines talked about in the UK know they're not. They are very much down the agenda for a whole range of reasons. We are as an organization swamp by the day to day stuff going on to try and preserve and support some more scale fishes in the UK but the guidelines really haven't got a very high degree of visibility here at all. Thank you I'm going to go for one more round of questions with punchy answers and I will take them from the bottom up so Momo if you could come off mute and ask your question that would be brilliant. Hi everybody thanks very much for the presentations and yeah I guess I'm just wondering I've worked in small scale fishery projects. In the past, and I always feel like there's really great results that we can that we can see and share but I am always stuck about how can we actually scale and good projects impactful and results from small scale fisheries. I think both of you have given examples and you work for and with organizations that do that. But how can we all do that better in the future to share good work from small scale fishery projects. Thank you. Thank you Momo. Let me turn to us Baumgartner for your question please. Yeah hello everyone well my question went a little bit I think it's similar to Momo so basically I've worked at different levels within fish value chains and a lot also with markets and what I observe is also the keywords have been mentioned before access visibility. You know like in markets usually consumers are not the way where the fish comes from small scale fisheries have no face there and but I think at the same time I mean better visibility is also key to access no to better access. So my question is a little bit despite of all the different opinions that Jeremy that you mentioned among fishermen and I also know like the millions of fishermen of course we are diverse diverse needs but how would it be possible or is it even imaginable that we could better coordinate and give us or give small scale fishery a unique or uniform voice and face in the market so consumers are aware also of the benefits of small scale fisheries. Usually fisheries are mentioned in a negative way because consumers read about the industrial fisheries and then destructive effects. So how to change this how could we coordinate small scale fishers to really also talk about the benefits. Thank you. And I've got a question from Noah Chongo but I'm not I can't see Noah still on Noah you there. I don't think so Noah's question. I think basically is how do you see the future of artisanal fisheries in the Anthropocene. Which I assume is kind of comes with a sense of either optimism or pessimism I'm not quite sure what but want to pick up and then the last one that I will highlight Judith Appleton you then to come off mute and ask your question. Hi Judith. Hi we can we can't hear you. We can't hear you but maybe let me voice your question for you because we're a bit tight on time but Sardine type fish are a key component of local diets of poorer people, but often hoovered up for fish meal to feed chickens for better off consumers who's actually tackling this and how. So I'm going to turn back to Jeremy and edit Rudith and we've got a maximum of five minutes for answers here so anything that you want to pick up I'm not going to ask you to cover them all but to pick up and give us some kind of punchy responses would be brilliant Jeremy do you want to kick off. Yeah okay very briefly actually as question is very good actually in terms of I give you an example in terms of the better coordinating and the challenges in terms of marketing in the EU some years ago there was a debate about or decision to be taken about labeling. And we obviously a small scale local fishes argued that the label should so date of capture and the larger scale people argued they want to be date of landing. For the obvious reasons obviously their fish can be two weeks old before it's even landed ours tends to be landed on a daily basis and we lost an argument. And if you look at labels certainly in the UK now and I think he knew it shows the date of date of landing rather than capture. So, in terms of better coordination you've got organizations like my own, not for but in the European context low impact fishes do a wonderful job I mean they've got well over 10,000 individual fishermen in membership. And it's a very slow process and it's, it's, it's, it is an uphill struggle so it's, it's all about I think communications and getting people talking together and working together and that's as we both recognize I think is a struggle. In terms of the future of small scale fishes, I think in the UK we are very serious danger of becoming nothing more than a picture postcard fleet, lack of fish lack of access to resources, climate change impacts. Perversely, second homes is devastating coastal communities. I don't know about anybody else in the world but here we pretty little coastal cottages are going for a phenomenal amounts of money and destroying breaking up long term traditional coastal communities and really throwing a hand grenade into into those sorts of support structures for that so it's. We're in the crossroads really and I wouldn't like to second guess what the outcome is going to be all I can hope for is that you know there is a positivity about it and that we do collectively be able to work towards it. I'm not, I'm not holding my, my breath in terms of sort of the pelagic species. Yes, it's an absolute nonsense that we're feeding them to what we were until recently devastating the North Sea for Sandy or to feed the fur factories. Yes, it's a complete nonsense and we need a root and branch reform, but I could go on for a long time but you'll be glad to know Tom I won't Jeremy thank you very much. And sorry for you to end on such a bleak picture I suppose but that's where we are. And it Rudith I wonder if you can come in and help us with the kind of last words including I suppose how we can scale effective work on on SSF. Yeah, if I go to question by Momo, they are yes great results but how to scale them up. I think it's by communication communication is everything. So if everyone is just fenced out and they're doing their own things. They're not sharing they're not communicating that won't take us anywhere. In the implementation looking at like we have the researchers we have the academia, we have the states. So sharing this sharing of information of what is happening. And not just the good things but also the challenges so that they are not repeated somewhere else is the key so that those good lessons are amplified and the challenges people learn from them. So communication is is one particular thing that's very important, building this networks, a country to country or even within the country. For example, there is this process in Africa for example of building women's networks at the national level. That's number one very important within the same country. Members from different water bodies sharing their experiences sharing this good practices is what inspires others even to do more. And if this also, you know, cross borders to other countries, they also be having some leaves to borrow from this such kind of experiences. So what I underline here is communication and from Bombard, how can we get more coordinated regarding the voice, how to change the narrative, talk about the benefits. I think, again, is in line with the first question, what can be done. So this all is I look at them now I believe so much in community driven change and being supported by SSF guidelines as a tool, once it is implemented and all the principles are followed because SSF guidelines follows the human rights based approach. And if this is all followed up, bringing all the actors together, the researchers do research that responds to the question that the small scale fishers have, the women fish workers have, and all the other actors in the value chain have, then it will be able to address then the academia likewise and all the other so working in coordination is key, sharing this information regarding technology, access to market, all these issues are very, very important. And this will help us to change the narrative in terms of instead of having business as usual, then we'll be able to transform whatever you do matters as long as you are doing for the best interests of the of the sector. Yeah. Thank you very much, edit Rudith really good words to kind of conclude with, and I'm not going to have either time or the talent to be able to effectively summarize the conversation. But if you recall our original question was what do we need to do in terms of concrete actions to build on the, the year, the 2022 EFA. And at least for me I've taken that there's really still some extremely tough challenges, and that we need a systemic actions one more coordination, more communication, more resources to where it's needed more information. Understanding rights and access and regulatory regimes and and work on on sanctions for where it doesn't go well, but also then acknowledging that climate changes and both an added risk factor and an opportunity to look at where there can be some reshaping. And eventually we do need to pull together as a community here to work from east to west and from north to south and understand the kind of fundamentally connected issues around this agenda. And, and with that I think I'd really like to make sure we take the opportunity to thank Jeremy and edit Rudith for really soldering through a lot of questions and and and different perspectives there thank you so much and also thank you to everybody for answering your questions I thought a really rich discussion and one final word for the team ID to Anna and to Christina and to Annabelle who've hosted this session so so well and helped us with such a great discussion. Round of applause for everybody involved thank you. And recordings will be made available please look out Friday's future work and work on our website. Thank you very much have a great rest of the day wherever you are. And look forward to seeing you again soon. Bye bye.