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Um, so Mike and I had a discussion about a topic that just seems to always be hot and that's keto diets and Our feeling was this that they have a place But they they're not a religion and that there is anything magical about them So share your thoughts and feelings on Yeah, my first exposure to you was one of the Google talks you did Yeah, and I not only loved how you spoke and ripped things apart because it made me laugh But just like the style the style of video. I assume it's on your YouTube. Yeah, if people want to check it out Yeah, it's I think it's on my YouTube or actually I know Google has it up on Talks at Google. Yeah, it's so good. It's so good. You just sit there and he has a big whiteboard behind I mean just and these are maybe non-fitness people at least they're not in the industry And you're just taking questions suggestions terms gimmicks that people have heard you write them up And then you just scratch them off not only the list on the board But people's minds of may or may not work and so yeah keto. What are your thoughts? What what are maybe some applications? And why is this stupid thing so popular over the internet right now? Well, I love that you guys called it Like I think it was Jim. I think you said it was like a religion Like like I feel like that's how people treat keto like it's a fucking religion and listen if somebody's keto They'll fucking tell you right away. They're keto. Yeah, like, you know, like you see like the memes It's like yeah, like hey, nice to meet you. My name is Jason and I'm keto like I don't like I think you know If I look at it, so I think I make the statement before but I remember one time on like a muscular development magazine this was Right after keto was really popular in the bodybuilding world Probably 12 13 14 years ago when like Dave Palumbo is really popular You know then all of a sudden George Farrell was like the guru and the headline on the magazine was carbs are back And I'm always like where the fuck the carbs go like it's not like as a macro nutrient They they fucking disappeared and you know, so I right now I think like we're just in this phase and if you just look at like dietary advice in the world It's very cyclical and so right now keto super hot then it'll be carb cycling again Then it'll be high carb low fat then it'll be fucking vegan and then keto will make another, you know Come around but if you look at the beginning of this craze you actually look at like there's some MLMs that you know Started producing the exogenous ketones and and so that's you know, anytime MLM happens I mean you look at like by Salis had their run And then you look at Beachbody had their run And you know now you've got like the pro bits of the world that are backed by you know Like one of the owners is like Russell Brunson is one of the best marketers in the fucking world And so, you know, it's backed by like a lot of really good marketing hype and so people just buy into it You know from the outside looking in it's super simple like let me eat eggs and bacon all day And I don't really think 99% of people that claim to be keto even understand what keto is I mean like when we look at it from application standpoint it should in theory be like 70% fat 25% protein and 5% carb But most people are like eating so much fucking protein, you know moderate amounts of fats and no carbs Which is not always keto. I mean research is somewhat conflicting that You know whether or not excess protein in a keto setup can contribute to knocking you out of ketosis Most people will tell you yes, I just read literature that actually refutes that so I don't want to you know Make a blanket statement either way, but the popularity I just think is in like, you know There's some ease of application. I mean just remove a you know a whole macro nutrient But let's just be honest anytime the average person removes carbohydrates. They're not counting calories They're not counting macros you remove a whole macro from them. What did you do you created a calorie deficit? Are they gonna lose weight? Of course, they're gonna fucking lose weight like it's not rocket science the same as intermittent fasting Like tell someone to stop eating for six hours. Okay, so they didn't eat their cupcakes at 8 a.m They still ate their cookies at 10 p.m. But those cupcakes that are no longer counted in their calorie deficit or in their You know calories inverse calories out is creating a deficit. So of course, they're losing weight like it's there's just nothing magical about it You know, you've got some zealots that have gotten behind it but then you dig into literature and you start to see like long-term effects and you see its application in in Current training protocols and you actually see it becoming more detrimental than good And so I'm not really a huge fan of keto and in most applications When you say more detrimental than good what what particular things are you referring to? Yeah, so I mean agree or disagree like Western or you know like current training modalities are at their all-time high relative to intensity Right, I think we can all agree on that like in 2019 training today is more intense than most I mean we're seeing a lot of Support in literature for more volume But you know, there's there's very high intensity training proponents and then of course there's the crossfit influence on the world There's the metabolic conditioning influence on the world. And so you're just starting to see a lot of these things All of those training intensities become glycolytic right at some point like higher intensity training metabolic conditioning It's glycolytic activity period the end like we we can't like dispute that that's fueled by fucking carbohydrate and There's not anything in the ketogenic diet that's going to support fuel from that or recovery from that And then you take that and you put it into a setting in Western culture today where you know things are like stress Is that an all-time high? You know, we're just stressed out as individuals. There's more traffic on the road. There's you know, we're sleeping less We're overcaffeinating we are You know just as human beings we're trying to do more like there's this hustle and grind culture that exists in 2019 And so you take that with you know an inability to really create a parasympathetic shift and All of a sudden you have a recipe for disaster with the ketogenic application to higher intensity modalities One another topic we're going to cover another podcast is kind of health versus performance So I don't want to go too deep into that but Yeah, what's maybe some applications of keto? You know, I think we see as I think you agree with us in a scene also like Instagram YouTube obviously one of the biggest influences on fitness culture right now And a lot of these people that maybe have a lot of muscle or lift a lot of weight are now saying that they eat Kino jetik style diets and I tend to agree with you I think 90 to 99 percent of these people actually aren't eating that style diet And then they aren't doing it for a long term But that's a different topic for a different day of what people post and what they actually live Well, what are some maybe applications of keto that you might see is is it a health thing? Is it a weight loss thing? Is it you know, like you said, I think there's fewer applications that people think it's not a broad stroke But there are some applications. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think if we were to look at Anybody that you know again, let's go back to like the whole Charles Paulic when statement of earn your carbohydrates Well, even that is you know somewhat misspoken Like if we use that as a foundation of understanding like where do carbohydrates fit in first of all? Carbs are a non-essential nutrient and any keto zealot will fucking tell you that right away Well, you don't need carbs to live. It's the one macro. We don't we're not disputing that. Yep Listen, we get it like you don't need it. That doesn't mean it's not optimal And it doesn't mean you also don't need the fucking resistance train in your life yet You can send you to do it. Yeah, so let's not go down. You don't need to shave your body head either Right exactly There's there's a lot of things that don't need to be done yet You continue to do them so it's a horrible argument, right? But if we if we look at that as like a base statement We say, okay who actually who needs carbohydrates so anybody under you know undertaking glycolytic activity anybody that wants performance enhancement You know anybody looking to you know for those things then we look at people that are not training people that just want to live longer Well research supports the fact that a ketogenic diet would would be helpful, right? There's anti-inflammatory benefits that have been shown from it You know, we know that's that inflammation is the one biomarker late directly to longevity So anytime you're trying to control inflammation a keto diet is gonna work great you know anybody that Maybe there's some pre diabetes going on a keto diet's a great start now I will say my stance on that has changed. I used to say like that would be the place you definitely go I think there's a short-term application there I think longer term you should be working to actually build insulin sensitivity to tolerate carbohydrates Some people will dispute me on that but I can back that one up pretty good And and you know again like now I look at I literally read before I talk to you guys I was on a podcast with a guy that was telling me and his his off-season the bodybuilding using seven 800 grams of carbs a day You know, I would want to be testing like blood glucose there and making sure that you know While you might need that to make your quote-unquote gains You know at some point you have to be looking at your insulin sensitivity and your blood glucose So, you know a brief ketogenic sample a brief ketogenic phase to bring that insulin sensitivity back up bring the blood glucose down Would be advisable. So really those are those are the main applications The one that I want to just straight up fucking bash is ketogenic in aerobic sports I'm so fucking tired of hearing the aerobic people be like keto this keto that like when you understand physiology at a certain level Yes, aerobic exercise is primarily fueled by that And so anybody that claims to be completely aerobic can get away on a ketogenic diet that being said Aerobic athletes like the keyword there is athlete not aerobic at some point. They are going to hit threshold Meaning whether it's anaerobic threshold or in their case aerobic threshold aerobic threshold is primarily Fueled almost solely by carbohydrate. And so when that carbohydrate is not available now all of a sudden You're starting to have a massive cortisol response. Well initially that cortisol response is great Which is why a lot of these aerobic athletes see success short term on the ketogenic diet But long term they begin failing and they begin getting worse Well prolonged like over like having an abundance of cortisol elevation is only got a smash your HPA axis Which is extremely difficult to recover from so, you know, these athletes are highly misinformed saying that they're only using that Perfumable they might be predominantly in their aerobic setting But as soon as you're competing you're in a setting where you need carbohydrate Like it's you know, and there's so many studies that show that like you look at like Ben Greenfield when he did volix 90% fat keto diet he he did really well in the Ironman, but then he fucking tested his hormone levels. They were complete shit So, you know, you start to look at like what are the real effects? Like a lot of people are using keto and like an n equals one situation and they're not showing prolonged application Which is really where the real research should be should be done And like you said like if carbs aren't hindering your performance and they may add to your performance a little bit Why wouldn't you get the extra calories and plus they fucking yeah Just like logically Yeah Who doesn't want to carbohydrate the rest of their life? Yeah, like seriously I cannot I will never meet one person that it's like listen that piece of cake doesn't look good Of course it does or you're lying like or you're lying bastard, you know Like either one is okay if that's what you want to do with your life But at the end of the day at some point most people are going to desire a carbohydrate You know gender specific to there's another fault You know and I don't want to just bash keto, but I think it's important that people understand, you know In my experience especially with physique athletes and people that are in calorie deficits pursuing fat loss You know females don't have as resilient of metabolism as males and I think it goes back to hormone profile behind that But if you're taking carbohydrates away from females for a prolonged period of time We're starting to see compromises and insulin sensitivity So you see girls going keto and then having an extremely difficult time Reintroducing carbohydrates let alone calories right which is hey you might look good on the keto diet for 12 weeks But long-term on the keto diet you've completely fucked yourself up like that doesn't sound good to me So there's there's just a lot of things I think people need to be aware of when they're undertaking something as extreme as keto Yeah, and like you mentioned hormone profile. It's something we mentioned Me and Jim talked about is that some of these people on the influence side of things Instagram whatever whatever even on the stage magazines, etc Probably are taking some type of hormones performance enhancing drugs and then they're backing up these keto's or whatever diet or whatever supplement Or whatever results, but the people following these Influencers whatever I don't even know what to call these people in 2019 the world's getting weird man Yeah, these people well all of it all of it's fucking weird I don't know what I even do for a living But the people that follow these bodybuilders or influencers fit slow folk They're most likely are not competitive or competitors And then they may not be on these performance enhancing drugs So these hormones obviously play a role in your metabolism how much muscle you can gain how much muscle you can spare in a diet And they're just not maybe being as honest as they should saying which ratio of keto and what ratio of PEDs may be played a role in their success You know and we look to at the population of people who are trying to compete in things you know aesthetic stuff or strength stuff or you know Prospheter whatever but the low-hanging fruit of all this are people who are overweight and sedentary and I think that the deal is that some of these people try a keto diet and they drop a bunch of water weight initially And so they get that sort of oh well I got you know I can actually lose weight that sort of confidence from it and then I think that some of for some of those people that's kind of where it turns into The religion because nothing's ever worked before and so this is working for them now And and they're definitely like I don't want to you know I don't want to sound like a zealot to you know when I'm going against all the zealots that I believe exist in the space But it's like they're definitely applications and listen. They're definitely people with sluggish metabolisms that have You know insulin sensitivity issues that just naturally don't tolerate carbohydrates Well, where keto might be an application for them to achieve the goals. They're trying to achieve You know the whole conversation could be preceded by another conversation of just understanding what your goals really are You know, I think a lot of people and like you said like we're gonna do another podcast on performance and health and a lot of people claim Oh, look at the health benefits of keto. Yes, they are out there. They cannot be disputed But yet you're now saying well, you know, it's making me healthier So I'm performing better at CrossFit like no I'm gonna tell you long term You will not be healthier number one because you're doing CrossFit Number two because you're fucking not fueling CrossFit with carbohydrates or recovering from them with carbohydrates So while you might see short-term and there's actually scientific reasons why that works But long term it will completely fuck you up Yeah, and it seems like it seems like people just don't Really read and plan around Massive changes like that, you know Changes in diet and changes in in in exercise all there's just like no No real thought that goes into it And so there's no plan for not being keto someday or not or you know reintroducing some Some calories at some point some extra calories for whatever reason. There's just no no plan in general Well, Western culture as we know it lives in today We don't ever really think I mean people overspend money today They they don't think about the ramifications of their today's actions relative to tomorrow I mean, so there's a lot of there's a lot of fundamental issues, but diet definitely extends into that And you know, and that's that's keto and otherwise I mean, I would you know again and using the example of somebody consuming seven eight hundred grams of carbs a day If you're not thinking at some point you might need a keto phase to control your insulin sensitivity You know, that's sadly mistaken as well. So I Think a lot of and you know, we call it nutritional periodization But a lot of people just very much live in the current phase It's you know what we're recording this the end of April So a lot of people are getting ready to diet for the summer and I guarantee a lot of people are thinking of Using the keto diet to diet for the summer, but let's consider the fact that you're gonna go 12 to 14 weeks without any car We lost you go up on vacation where you're gonna consume Oh, can you hear me? You're gonna show up on vacation where you're gonna consume nothing but alcohol and carbohydrates And after after three to four months of no carbs, then you do that for a week of only alcohol and carbs How do you think your body is gonna respond to that pure muscle? Oh 100 did games games man all about the games So yeah, I mean, it's a you know, people don't think at all about long-term You know long-term anything So just kind of to nutshell this thing short-term strategy Good for some people with with specific health conditions Have a plan Always have a plan. Yeah, always have a long-term like periodized plan, right? So even if you're Even if you're pursuing fat loss as it is today You need to have an exit strategy from your current diet And then you know once you've exited that you need to say okay I might even in a place where I could potentially diet again like Mike You're going through your diet right trying to get out of that I guarantee you'll have Dude, I'm trying to try to get shredded like you If you guys need to go to his Instagram this guy's jacked He doesn't just talk to talk There's a lot of nutrition is gonna disappoint a lot of people man They're gonna go to my Instagram be like Mike is completely full of shit wrong username Yeah, people are gonna say like yeah, I'm just gonna I'm gonna start posting pictures of you on my account Prepare to lose followers But no, it's Yeah, I mean, you know every dietary phase you go through has to have to be periodized We talk about this in the context of literally everybody we work with whether you're a professional athlete Whether you're a weekend warrior wanting to get lean whether you want to live forever There there has to be some sort of flow and some sort of evolution to what you're doing And and if that's not built into your plan, then you need to talk to somebody that understands that concept Yeah, I think advice I mean obviously if you have the money always getting some kind of coach and it is difficult Again another discussion for another day to find a qualified or good coach But yeah, any kind of guidance is often better than because you have weird discussions with yourself I even do I've been in this thing for 12 years and I still think like shit man Maybe I should do some you know, like everyone's getting results on keto Yeah, I mean dude I just I literally just started my diet on Monday and I was like maybe I need to start like super low Card for the first two weeks and I've coached tens of thousands of people. Yeah, you know stupid stupid shit still goes through my head It's human nature, right? I mean I think that we see the the media and the propaganda around us and here we are three people that have been in the Industry that understand the industry and and understand the bullshit messaging behind a lot of it yet We are still influenced by if we're influenced like think about the people that don't have our knowledge and don't have our experience Of course, they're getting hit with it Yeah, we get it Jason appreciate your man. Appreciate the time working people find you Yeah, dude Instagram at Jason Phillips underscore. I am three or online. I am three nutrition calm Best two places awesome. Thanks so much