 Politicians are buying PVCs from registered voters. INEC raises a lamb as FURIWA challenges INEC to publish their names. Tonight on Civic Education, we discuss vote buying and implications on the 2023 elections. And, withdrawal limits will cripple campaign funding. Parties cry out. This is Plus Politics. My name is Nyam Gul Agaji. Human Rights Writers Association of Nigeria, FURIWA, on Wednesday challenged the independent National Electoral Commission, INEC, to publish the details of politicians buying and storing up permanent voter cards to rig the 2023 general elections. At least that's the word on the street. FURIWA's national coordinator, Comrade Emmanuel Omubiko, in a statement said, Much politicians must be named, shamed, and prosecuted immediately, insisting that there must be no cover-ups if the Electoral Empire is indeed serious about free and fair elections next year. Recall that the INEC National Commission are overseeing the federal capital territory, Nassarawa, Kaduna, and Plato states, Mohammed Haruna, had on Monday in a Buja race the alarm that some politicians were buying PVCs ahead of the 2023 polls. It is also disclosed that two persons have been recently convicted for illegal possession of PVCs in Sokoto and Kanu state. INEC also subsequently vowed that anyone caught buying or selling PVCs would be arrested and prosecuted, warning politicians and political parties that it would not condone any illegal acts. And hopefully by Emmanuel Omubiko, a national coordinator of Human Rights Writers Association of Nigeria, to discuss this. But we also have Reverend Raymond Noliefo, director, Justice Development and Peace Centre here in Lagos. Reverend Raymond, we are glad to have you join us today. Thank you very much. My pleasure to be here. Uriwa has taken the first step and said that the naming-shaming should be done before 2023. What advantage will that naming-shaming and prosecuting the PVC buyers bring to the 2023 election if you believe that is what should be done as well? Okay, now, well, Uriwa's call that people should be, for politicians, should be named and shamed. I think it's a very good idea. I think I like the idea myself because if people go around buying voter cards from registered voters, it's a criminal offence. It is stealing, it's corruption, and it has to stop. As much as we know that INEC is probably also telling us it will be null and void, basically because they can't use the PVCs for anything, or into the bimovidal voter accreditation system. So when you buy someone else's PVC, we begin to imagine what exactly are going to do with it. But we don't want INEC to just come out and say these things. We want to name names if there are politicians that they know already have been caught doing this. I think it behoves on them to let the general public know, and hopefully other politicians who are either trying to do this or contemplating this will have a rain check and decide to do otherwise, hopefully. Well, but they have claimed that two people have already been prosecuted and convicted. But in the general sense, do you think that INEC has this kind of capacity to carry this threat that they are giving out? Well, basically that's pretty much what we are talking about here because INEC would have to work together with the law enforcement agents and get these things done. I also heard and read as well of the two persons already convicted, who are they? I really don't know. If they're out there, it's not out of place to let us know if they're politicians, if they're just agents of political parties, they can equally let us know. A lot of faith is placed on INEC in the coming elections. And we cannot take this line down anymore. We cannot just sit by. There's no sitting on the fence in this. If INEC is making these types of allegations so that we take them seriously. So it's not some spurious allegations out there that some politicians are buying permanent voters card because trust me, no political party would admit it. All the political parties have said they are in tune with INEC. They want INEC to prosecute or INEC to go after anyone who is caught doing this. So who are the politicians? They obviously belong to one political party or the other. If INEC will let us know who they are, fine. And they will get to see them. Let's see them. Let's call these politicians, let's call their political parties, let's call their leaders. And then at least we begin from somewhere. So there is not some spurious allegation that is probably just to give the impression that work is being done. And that's why we are saying this at this time. But if they've said it, then let us see those people. Let us hear them. Let's call them and let's name names. Okay, what you're saying is what is supposed to be done. But do you think as a person, are you convicted that they can do this? Because we've heard of people being, okay, names being kept somewhere like when the time is right. We are going to name names. For instance, when we're talking security, at one point we heard that the people who are sponsoring Boko Haram, for instance, there's a long list of these names and the people, some of them are very influential. Of course, they have to be influential before they can sponsor Boko Haram or any other security threats or bandit group and all that. But these names never came to the fore. We don't know if they're hoarding the names for campaigns or they're hoarding the names for whatever reason. Do you think as a person that INE can do this? There is a system that can enable them to do this. There is the political will on the part of the government in power and the people who have been given this right to do what they are saying they can do if people go astray. Very interesting question. I'll answer that in two ways. Now, my head tells me that they cannot. It's just going to be another. It's just going to go the same way like almost every other thing. While there's a trust deficit in this country, especially with those who call themselves leaders, in every sphere there's a trust deficit. I do not trust the government. I do not trust the political parties. I do not trust the politicians. Am I going to trust INEK? Professor Mahmoud has given me a lot of confidence, but you just pointed out what happens in the area of security. But if we go by what has just happened, if I have caught a thief and I've caught you, I've caught your hand in the cookie jar, why am I not calling you out? Why am I not saying political party A or politician A has been caught doing this? So my head tells me that as much as it may not necessarily be a spurious allegation, as much as it's possible that yes, some persons have been caught, have been fingered in this, but they are not going to call anyone out. It's just going to be out there as just warnings. Maybe it's even a gaslighting. On the other side, by way of hope, being a Catholic priest, I have some hope that tomorrow is going to be better. We've been doing the work. We've also been praying, like we all believe, faith and work, not just faith alone, faith and work. And we believe that something good might just come out. And I hope, I desperately hope, I'm a diehard optimist. I believe this country can be better. I believe that if we have the political will, if the INEC chair decides to do the right thing, which I believe he wants to do, if he's going to do it. And I call on, I use platform to call on the president as well. He's been showing a lot of good will so far in asking that for a free and fair election, promising this and calling us to do what is right and all the agencies involved. I want to believe that yes, we'll get it right this time. But I don't know, a lot is left to be desired. So I think I'll just leave it at that. My head is telling me one thing, my heart is also telling me another. I just can't imagine. But when you're talking about the establishment, it's like the same people fighting themselves. And sometimes it's very difficult to get things done. But the people who are feeling the brunt, the people that sometimes we call on to do the needful. For instance, you have the Justice Development and Peace Center or the Justice and Peace Development Commission in the Catholic Church. I already know that there is even a prayer right now going on in the Catholic Church for the free and fair election. But beyond the prayers, what can the people do? Whether they are just politicians, they are just Nigerians, whether they are doing because they are religious, anything, any reason. But the people are the ones that bear whatever brunt comes from a political foley or a policy that is not favorable to the people. So what can we do to make sure these people do what they're supposed to do, especially like INF is threatening that they're going to prosecute people? Is there something we can do using your experience as a member or a director in the Justice and Development and Peace Commission? Thank you very much. There is a whole lot. There's a whole lot we can do. And we are already doing something. We've been doing this in the past. We continue to do it. But sometimes it looks as though all the work is, it amounts to nothing because of the lack of political will. But the people need to understand that we are in the majority. We're in the majority. We need to say no to all these acts of brigand age that come from the political, the elite class. Unfortunately, yes, poverty has been weaponized. And so people move into the streets, people move into the crypts in the villages, requiring people to bring out their voter's card and then they give them some money. We must continue to understand and enlighten our people. This web of education comes in. We must continue to enlighten our people that you cannot go about selling your PVCs or your votes on election day. It's not going to help anyone. It's not going to help you either. You attempting to sell and probably get a power to some of 5,000 or less for four years, regardless of the amount of money. And the truth of the matter is that, like I said, we are in the majority. We are in the majority. We must continue to close ranks. We both keep talking about this. This must be a front burner issue. And this campaign, these discussions must be taken to the hinterlands, the villages, the rural areas and get people to understand this that their vote is more like their lives. You can't afford to sell your life for a pot of porridge. That's basically what we have to do. Across we must bridge whatever it is that divides us along religious lines, ethnic lines and what a view. We are the ones who are seated underneath the table and the elites are on the table. We are more. The moment we stand up, we rise to the occasion. These guys will flee. These guys will flee. Look at what happened during the period where people were being conversed to go out and register. That was a show that we can actually get it done if we need to do it. Now, this is where we now call on IMEG, the agency involved in this, and call them that the people are trying as much as possible to play their part. The civil society space is at God with a lot of activities, voter education, conversing PVCs for people to go and get their PVCs. The church on her part is making conscious efforts not only to pray. The prayer has been sanctioned by the attribution of Lagos, and every parish in Lagos Archdiocese currently is going around. We are seeing those prayers at every mass so that no one will accuse us of not praying and no one will accuse us of not working. So this is work and faith put together. And I believe that with this, we can get it right this time. But the people, the people we really, really need to get to the people. Fortunately, there has been a weaponization of poverty. And trust me, these politicians, they know exactly what they're doing. They know exactly what they're doing. They know very soon, if it has not already started, PVC sales are on, people are getting down, their PVCs collecting monies here and there. This must stop. This must stop. And of course, the citizens have to also play their role by calling out people who do these things, by having pictorial evidences or video evidences and sending this to the security forces or the group responsible, the agencies responsible for this. I think I'd like to add here that I believe personally that two agencies or two departments that need to work to ensure a successful election come 2023 will be INEC and the security agencies. If these two bodies get it right, we might just be... Well, Father, I do not know how... Close to St. Hurop. We might just be close to St. Hurop. I do not know how it's going to be. So many times we hear people saying he will pace the pipe and it takes the tune. Much as we would like to believe that the security apparatus that we have in the country is somehow autonomous and we also know that INEC is an autonomous body, an independent body, as the name implies. But we know that there are influences that come from high above them. But that's not our concern now because no matter how they say, like my people say, no matter how angry they are at ease, it will not stop the cat from eating it. So we are concerned with the people that are not being paid as it were by the people that we are trying to check. Now, let's take your experience in the justice development and peace commission. I know that you had a hand that is the commission itself or the center itself in the peace accord that was signed by the politicians and the rest. Let's try to know the challenges that you have as a body and see what the people can do to key in to making your job a little bit easier because we need more bodies like the justice development and peace in Nigeria, not just that one that is run by the church. So what are the challenges and what is the way forward? Okay, now, well, truth be told, the peace accord was, of course, a very laudable one, a very impressive one, and all the political parties, the presidential candidates by one, they won, were out there to sign. But of course, because it has no force of implementation of its own, one can be compelled by the peace accord, what to do or what not to do. It's almost like what we call a gentleman's agreement that we are going to play fair and all that. But from what has happened since after then, it's almost like I said to someone somehow that sometime ago that it's like the peace accord, the sheet that was signed, they had already turned it to shreds. You can see all that's been happening in the last couple of weeks across the various political parties and what has been happening. And then part of the challenge is just the lack of political will from the politicians themselves. Unfortunately, in this dispensation, not just the Muhammad Wari-led administration, since the turn of democracy, we have not really fed well in the way our politics has been played. We've been playing the politics of do and die, do or die. Our politics has not been smooth at all. And somehow I think it's just this part of the world. We now tell everybody politics is a dirty game. So stay out of it. If you are clean, stay out of it. And so almost it's like a home of criminals. So as it were, it's almost like it's left for terrible personalities to get into the space and do their bit. And somehow, even though that should not be the case, somehow that's what we are seeing. They come in there. They steal votes. They pay thugs to create mayhem. And even though their leaders say nothing about this, or even when they say it, it just ends like the Holy Book will say. It's just lip service. We pay lip service to all of these. And then the security agencies seem to have been compromised. They seem not to be doing anything tangible about it. How many politicians have been prosecuted for electoral violence across the country since the turn of democracy till now? Lives have been lost. And lives continue to be lost. And nothing seems to be happening. So we need more agencies to come out and talk about this. People need to know that we cannot become canon foders in the hands of these daredevil, some of these daredevil politicians. Not all of them. But we know that somehow it's almost like no matter how good your intentions are, the moment you step into the arena called politics, you probably begin to sing a different song. It's almost as though you drink, like we always say, table manners. You begin to eat with criminals. And so you're not supposed to speak while you are eating, while you have the food in your mouth until you leave the space. But that should not be the case. That should not be the case. We must have to begin to enlighten ourselves, voter education, citizens' participation. We must begin to hold ourselves accountable. And that's one of the challenges we all have, even as followers, the lack of accountability. People, the average Nigerian, I can tell you, you can test this maybe when you get home, in your home or in your environment there. Give somebody some money to go help you do certain things and come back and then you ask the person, please, can you just give me an account of this? The person say, ah, this brush, no trust me. We don't like to give account. The husband gives the wife money to cook some meal. If you want peace in the house, don't ask for what did you buy with the money I gave to you. The moment you ask for account, transparency, automatically you don't trust me, automatically you don't like me, automatically you are my enemy. So as individuals, we are not accountable to ourselves. And what happens? We transit and take political power and enter into government. And then unfortunately, the type of politics played here in Nigeria, no one questions anybody. Look at what's happening. Some presidential candidates will come for debates, some will not. And so what are we talking about? If you cannot come to talk to us, if you don't want to speak to us, what's going to happen? How are you going to speak to us when you assume office? If you ever assume office, how are you going to speak to us? No one is going to hold you accountable. The office of the citizen is the highest office in the land. And so as much as possible, if the citizens, if we understand this, if we close ranks, if we come together and know what we want, what we truly want, what we genuinely desire, as a people, I think we can begin to stop some of these shenanigans. Don't allow yourself to be a criminal. Don't allow yourself to be used to ferment trouble in any way, in any way. How many of the politicians, you see them when they go for these campaigns and all that? How many times, at best, you see their wives? How many times do you see their sons, their daughters, their children in the group or in the mammoth crowd shouting some chants? But the moment they are elected and they get into political power, then you see their full family. You see the extended family. They are all there on the stage to receive a badge. I'm just sad. Let's just wrap it up with this. I know that there's only so much the church can do, but do you think the church, and I'm not talking about only the Catholic church, the Christian faith, because you are a priest in the Catholic church, so you may not know what is happening in the mosques and every other place, but in the church, the church generally Christendom, do you think enough is being done to enlighten the people, because whether we like it or not, the church is the church entirely from the politics of the day or from governance that takes place in our day to day lives. Do you think the church is doing enough to enlighten the people on what they really need to do and the obligations to the state and to themselves and the generations on bond? What I'll say with regards to that is this. The only room left in the world is the room for improvement. The church has been in the forefront of the democratic process since the turn of democracy, even before then, and the church continues, not only the Catholic church, like you pointed out, but across. And I can tell you for free that a lot is being done in the Christian denomination to enlighten her members, but so much still needs to be done. Bota education is critical. They need to get the PVCs. The need for our members, I have been screaming my voice out to people under my spell of influence. Get your PVCs. Get your PVCs. Don't wait till a week to the closure. And then the INEC offices, the local governments or the registration areas are jam-packed to the rafters. Go now and get your PVCs. And then the church is doing a lot. But what is left is just improvement. We have to continue to improve. We have to continue to close ranks and make sure we get people out there, religious bodies. I believe even in the month, these messages are being cascaded to the various adherents of the various faith. And so these things have to be done. I think it's just for INEC. INEC really needs to up their game. INEC needs to continue to give us a lot of faith, give us a lot of hope. The voter collection is out. But somehow I'm not feeling it. I'm not particularly excited because we're told November and this is already December. And yet the cards that are out there are not completely, at least here in Lagos, the cards of those who have registered or who registered this year, but those who did transfers and all of that. So I think INEC needs to really encourage us. But I think the church is doing a lot and she will continue to do her bit. Okay, thank you. Reverend Father Raymond Anoliefo, Director, Justice Development and Peace Centre, thank you so much for being a part of this program today. Thank you very much. It's been my pleasure. Okay, thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll take a short break. And when we return, we will be taking a look at our earlier discussion with Kach, or none of you, Special Advisor on Public Affairs to the Labour Party Presidential Candidate Peter Obie, and Honourable Angu Ongu, North Central Zonal Coordinator, Attico Support Organization ASO, on the CBN withdrawal limit policy and effect on party funding. Stay with us.