 Today, we're in Brisbane, and I'm about to conduct a fireside chat with Pup Scout, but I offer a sincere thanks to Sirk Twitch for the use of his comfortable home in Brisbane. And Pup Scout, welcome to the Fireside Chats. Good afternoon. How are you? I'm very well. Thank you. So tell us, starting right at the beginning, where are you from? Tell us a bit about your family. Where I was born. I was born in Sydney. Okay. In Auburn, Sydney, New Parameda, and I grew up and wasn't long before I moved to the city itself when I was old enough, and I had two brothers and a sister. What did your family do? My sister is a psychologist now. My brother lives in the States, and my other brother does IT stuff. Okay. Did your family work professionally? What work did your parents do? My mother stayed at home. She was a housewife. She did the whole nuclear family thing, and my father was a tailor by trade, and basically was a breadwinner of the family. Okay. Tell us a little bit about your schooling, because you told me that you were bullied at school. It was not a good time for you. Scrolling was certainly a challenge. Bullying was something that I had a speech impediment and hearing aids, which I'm still aware of today. Because you're different, bullying was certainly something that was uncontrollable, and kids were just nasty until about the age. For example, what did they do? They got the hearing aids off. There were sometimes vials, names falling, questions shoving. I was also quite small, so there were beta kids who would pick up the smaller kids. So yeah, it was quite a traumatic experience at school. Did the school administration do anything about this? The school administration did what they could do. I believe the bullying policies certainly are normally a lot better now. However, the rates of suicide are still quite high. I was part of the school watch report that was done in 1998 in New South Wales schools. Looking at GLBGI, students were bullied, harassed, and the response. Those were openly out. Certainly, there was very little support within the school system. I wasn't out at school. I got bullied because of my hearing, mainly. But you sort of changed in, what, the age here? So, high school, year 8, so a bit different to probably what other school systems are. I certainly decided to stand up for myself. And I was miraculously connected with someone in a manner that wasn't what I did. And bullying came to an end for me. What do you mean connected with someone? I hit him. Okay. So yeah, he pushed me too far, and I decided to throw a punch. And yes, he fell over, went back to the chair, and this thing, the bullies stopped. Oh, you... That's the best way to do things, but... You basically took back your power. Yes. Okay. Okay. So, you said that your interest in boys was organic. What does that mean? Um, it... I knew from a very early age that I was different, that I didn't see girls. Like, others would see girls as sort of boys' difference. You know, people would say, oh, that's growing up, and that's, you know, just what boys do. But as that continued into teenage years, it certainly got a lot more than just fiddling. It got a lot more to more sexual nature. And certainly, you know, a lot of friends would talk about women in a certain way, and I'm like, well, I don't feel that. And you learn to survive because you don't want to be out because there was a lot of homophobia. So you learn to survive by going, oh, yeah, you know, I did that too. And you learn how they carry on and mock their behavior when you know you're looking at them in the change room rather than looking, you know, what they're going on with. So from a very, from an early teen years, I knew I was certainly gay. What was your attraction? What about them? Attracted you? The muscles, the muscle-ups. I mean, women just didn't do anything for me. Guys did. It was just, you know, I looked at a woman, you know, that's a nice girl. That was it. You looked at a guy, and he's hot. So the chemical, I guess, in the brain were wired to know, hey, this person is hot. He's a guy, and I want to do stuff with this person. And from a female perspective, I didn't get that at all. Did you act on any of this interest? Yes. What did you do in high school? All sorts of things. I learned, you know, how to suck it. I was certainly probably not at the age of consent when I was doing things. Back in that day, we didn't have grinders. We didn't have recon. We didn't have apps. I was, I left school and in my apprenticeship after year 11, and I got paid. So my apprenticeship got paid. I was not very much money. But it afforded $49 to go down to a Westpac bank and deposit money into a branch to use a telephone line that you go into the old pay phone, and because I got rid of the old dial-up rotary phones, you dial in and you leave a message for someone, and you had to go back and dial in later on. Now, if you didn't have a membership, that was $49. You had to win a Reno 1 900 number, which was a lot more expensive. However, I didn't want that number on my parents' phone bill. So they wouldn't know because a Sydney number and a O2 number did not show up on the bill. So I was able to hide the fact that I was meeting people under, say, the Glacierville Bridge in Sydney. What age were you doing this? Fifteen and a half. My gosh. Okay. Fifteen. And did these other people have any concerns about someone so young when they would finally meet you? I was very mature. Oh, all right. There were questions sometimes, and I was like, oh yeah, I may need. I may have, you know, acquired a card from a video store that says I was 18 years old, because only 18-year-olds would have a membership for a video shop to hire VHS videos. So I said, well, I may need my card. I've got a video-easy card. So even back then, that means a bar. Okay. And I found the Baron's Bar in Sydney. My gosh. But you said, when we were preparing for this interview, you said that there was something called the Grim Reaper television ad that aired on Australian television. But you misunderstood it. So tell us about that. What was it? So the response, I was very young, so about five or six, and I were hearing aids. Back then I had hearing aids. And so you're understanding on what aids were, because they weren't referred to as hearing aids, they were referred to as aids. You know, have you got your aids on? Suddenly this ad with the Grim Reaper, which was bowling at people who were the pins and knocking these people over, children, women, men, everyone. And it was quite a dark, maybe nightmares. And that made me feel that if I wore my aids, my hearing aids, I was going to die. So it's something they were called MPs, because I didn't have that understanding of what the concept of what that ad was trying to sell. What the ad was, was a double attempt to raise awareness about the HIV-age epidemic that was occurring. Which, without knowing that age, obviously, but knowing the history of it now, created more stigma within the communities against the GLV, GIQ communities, especially those who were gay men, because a lot of people targeted gay men for the HIV-age epidemic that occurred in that era, and that was around in the 90s. So you're saying that the television ad actually backfired on the LGBT community? Is that right? I believe so, yes. I firmly believe that that ad caused more stimulants, caused more people to categorise people in a certain stereotype and cause severe stigma. Also, those who did get HIV, who saw the ad, it was a death sentence. The ad delivered a death sentence and that was your only hope. You didn't have any other hope. And so I believe it certainly affected a lot of people's mental health as well with that ad. Did eventually other adverts come up that did a better job here? Not to that degree. I think that ad certainly did give awareness to what was going on, a fashion that I don't know if that was the intention, I think the government of the day would certainly say it was to be proactive, because they weren't understanding what was going on. However, by 1997, when I was 17, 18, ACON, which was previously AIDS Council in New South Wales, certainly was a lot more proactive with their adverts and there was a lot more about condom use, there was a lot more, you know, testing, and there was a lot more education out there for that. Physicians obviously before PrEP, so pre-PrEP days. It was a lot more, the advertising targeted was a lot more to remove the stereotype and to also remove the fact that it was no longer a death sentence. At the same time, governments have put money into research for drugs that were available on the PBS as well for people to be able to manage their HIV. I'm sorry, PBS? Pharmaceutical Benefit Scheme. Ah, okay. Yes, the PBS, Pharmaceutical Benefit Scheme. They start a scheme within Australia. Oh, okay. When people who are on low-income healthcare cards can get their medicines, currently she's got almost 20, it was probably less than, rather than, you know, 30, 40 or 50 dollars or more. Got it, okay. But taking one step back, you said a few moments ago that that little card from the video shop got you into the bars when you were very young. Tell us a little bit about that. I also found headquarters down in Sydney, which was an SOPV. I'm sorry, SOPV? SOPV, that's on premises for you. Got it, okay. So I found Oxford Streets because, you know, it was a pink triangle and I wanted to find this pink triangle. Anyway, we found it. We stumbled upon the pink triangle, which was Oxford Streets, where they had the old Aubury Bar, Flinger Street Hotel and the Barracks and a few others. I mean, the Oxford is still there. The Stonewall is still there. But others have gone over there. So I found the Aubury first and that was amazing. And then you followed the crowds and I found the Midnight Shift. I found the Flinger's Hotel and a lot of the times I just walked in and never asked for ID. Okay. I mean, these days I did a lot more stringent with asking for ID. But I didn't look older than what I was. So I was able to pull that off because other people who were with me who were sometimes older or younger were asked for ID. And when they asked for ID, they accepted a video easy card. Not a proper ID. Fascinating. So we just had my date of birth. Which the video easy guy who I knew passed my date of birth on the video easy card so I could have one. So it said I was older than what I really was. And the Barracks Bar, which was the lever bar and that's kind of where I met my parents. It was more headquarters but we went to the barracks several times. On my 18th birthday, I walked up to the security guards and just my birthday felt how you must be 21. And I laughed at him. I went, no, I'm 18 and he wasn't very impressed. Tell us about the bars though at that time. What sorts of venues were they? The Aubury was a very dance venue. Very busy. The bars were probably a lot busy than what they are now back then. There was a vibe about them. There was a really good vibe and it was, this is actually a new vibe. Obviously different tastes went to different bars and different people went to different bars. Certainly if you're in the Flinger Street bar, you knew at 3am in the morning you were there with the same crowd. You were there with the same crowd that were going to be there every other weekend for the next 10 years. Because that bar was the last to close. The Barracks was the lever bar. And what we got away with or what we possibly couldn't have done but we did in the Barracks or other bars you certainly couldn't do today. Such as? I want more nudity. In the bars there was a lot more sexual activity. There was a lot of blind eyes being turned to what was going on in those bars. In the way that instead of going to the toilets you may have gone right in front of the bartender. Now you try to do that in a bar in Australia today. Even if it's a gay bar you'd be thrown out. Because of the laws. The Barracks for example had a spider web chain. That regularly guys were changed to when things were done until. So quite open. Anyone from the Senate, anyone who had walked in to participate. When was this? How long ago was this? 1996. To the early 2000s. It's definitely changed around the Olympics. In 2000s it really changed. Why then did they just go on a big cleanup campaign? There were more laws introduced in New South Wales to meet the requirements of the Sydney Olympics. There was also more alcohol laws being brought in. There were more violence incidents occurring on the streets. Oxford Street was not immune to violent incidents. I also believe that the drug scene that met became more than rather than just speed or the stuff that was low. That not used now as much. Or ecstasy. Things were a lot stronger then. And they're still continuing to get stronger. I feel that the lockout laws came much later. But I think that led up to the lockout laws that occurred in Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane. Which killed a lot of the nightlife in Australia. And for the benefit of an international audience, the lockout laws were basically at what time the bar was going to close and turn everyone out, right? Yes. We're bars into those five, six, seven days. There wasn't really many restrictions. But I understand that they're all open quite late in the night spots. Everyone's now thrown out depending on where you are from 1am to 2am. And they haven't gone and fixed. Well, hold on. We've got all these people out of the bars who are now drunk. Who are now going to get home. So they can constantly cause another problem. And they've also cut the revenue of bars which are now to send on them clothes. Yeah. The lockout laws were much later. But to the lead of that, you know, you had older, which is the Office of Gaming Liquor Reformed. Accords were formed. And they brought in various policies and license restrictions. That was to curb behaviors. And also society changed. Society changed from how they were doing, what they were doing. Officer Street was no longer just gay. Officer Street was becoming more pansexual. The night clubs were allowing a lot more straight people in. So a lot of gay people were moving out of Officer Street and more towards Newtown. So the culture was even changing. And I feel that kind of was a big part of what was going on. And a lot of people would comment that, you know, it wasn't what it was. And I had to agree with that. It wasn't what it was when I first went on Officer Street. You had drag queens in makeup full dress in the middle of the day, you know, carrying on. To now you walk up Officer Street, it's quite tame. Yeah. To what it was. Back in the day you were a dancing boy. Tell us about that. Back in the day. So there was the Prove Adult Bookshop that was in Officer Street down in the central door. And they had dancing boys. And that's one of the activities that I did for extra money. Because they would, you get paid to do the dance in the studio thing that has set up upstairs on level three. There were these little glory hole windows that people put cash in to touch. And if they put enough cash in you might have given them the key and they came in the room with you. Okay, how much was that? How much would they have to pay? $100. Oh, okay. $250 or $100. Certainly when the international visitors were in, the Americans and Canadians were a lot more generous because they were throwing large sums of money. I know there were times when American tourists were throwing $500. Wow. And you might even go after them and go home with them. They spent a lot. Wow. So yeah, it was a whole lot of fun. I was 18, 19 at the time. What was your reason for doing that? It was fun. Oh, okay. At first it was, oh, fine extra money. When you're on the apprentice wage at the time it's only $220 a week. You get. So it was certainly extra income. Okay. How much of that were you able to keep? What percentage belonged to you? All of it. Oh, really? Oh, okay. Yeah, all of it. It wasn't like when you work, say, for the night call or something like that, which is like a callboy house. You got 70%. Okay. So it was $200. You got 70% of that $200. Yes. If the client wanted two boys, then it was 65% of the total amount to what? And the house kept the rest. If there was outcalls, you were taken in a BMW, dropped off with a driver and a security guard, and they would come back and grab you, pick you up. The person had paid a credit card if they were extending the visit you had to ring and make the charge over the phone and you stay longer. You got your normal rate and they got the call out fee. I guess the outcalls. Oh, okay. So just say the normal rate was $150. It might be $200 for an outcall. So you only got your normal rate of the $150 and didn't get any of the outcalls. But they provided security and a vehicle and made sure you were safe. Oh, okay, okay. You said you stumbled upon the barracks bar, though. What happened with that? So the barracks bar was in a laneway. So you had Taylor Square, so when you see Marty Drive go around the toilet strip where all the cameras are, that's Taylor Square. So that intersection is there and that Taylor Square is right there. And you had a hotel there and that was a very, I guess, what we called the credit card queens. There was other credit cards and they would go there anyway. There was a little laneway that was behind that building and that went downstairs into the barracks bar. Okay. So it was one night walking to go and there was a little combat shop thing that was on the corner that you would get something to eat and when you've been drinking and stuff. I remember walking around and here was this security guard just standing there. I'm like, why isn't he there? So I walked up and there was a bar and there were people walking in there in leather. And I was like, can I go down? And he looked at me and said, are you ready? Yes. And I think he was also trying to answer it so confidently that it wasn't ever asked. Like, are you sure? Yes. Okay. And this gentleman was in forever. He was standing over by the side. I didn't really pay any attention because I was like, wow, look at this place. This is amazing. Had a few drinks and went home. I went there and decided to go there the following weekend and go there earlier. And there was this same gentleman for leather standing in the bar and he brought me a drink. And that was very appreciative, which was really nice. I then decided to go to Headquarters, which was the leather sex supremacist venue because there was also a body line, which was the spa bar in my house and there was a few others. And I was watching in the pool lounge and this leather figure from the Barrett Spa walked in. And I'm sitting there and suddenly I got all scared. I'm like, you could use a balcony entrance. There's no way out. And I'm like, I'll just pretend you got there. And he put his leg up for his boot on the stool next to me. Do you want to lift my boots? What? So I did. Okay. And then I lift his leg up and then we fucked. And then I had a sir. Okay. And that's how I found the Barrett Spa and Headquarters. Did he act as a mentor toward you in the community? Definitely. Yes. How did that mentorship benefit you? In many ways. It brought me into the leather community. Okay. I got my first pair of leather pants which I had to be suspended at the Fishtel leather to be able to get them for nothing. Whilst the shop was open. Okay. He was probably someone who was in the community quite known who knew people because I remember going to city leather pride meetings and everyone knew who he was. Okay. I didn't quite understand that because politics of the community never came home. I was sheltered from these politics. So I didn't really know. It wasn't until we went to a few of the meetings where he bought me a loan that I realised the extent that he was involved in the politics. And it was quite interesting that a lot of times the younger guys and whether it was mighty guys and girls but it was leather pride, it was a lot of younger guys came into a separate room where we would come up with projects and I'd keep us entertained while the adults give the talking. I guess. And our voices weren't really... we were protected by this political... whatever was happening. And I believe there were things that were happening I don't quite know because it wasn't something it was ever discussed. We went home and what would happen? Nothing. Nothing, boy, nothing happened. Why was this being kept from you, do you think? I think the DS that we had because there was a contract, there was an agreement that we went through and I was... also he knew I was not 18. Okay. Also. He knew I was... at that time I was about 17. So he knew I wasn't 18. And back then he knew so. I think the age of consent was 18. Okay. Legally now, 16. Oh, okay. But back then it was... I wasn't quite 18 so... and he knew I was... as he said, I can't stop you from going to the bars. They know they think you're 18. I can... that's your learning, that's your journey. I can't stop you doing that. He ascertained quite early that I knew exactly what I wanted and I was telling him what I wanted. So if I was going to know a subject, I was going to know a subject. If I was going to know a bend over someone, you know, it was going to be a thing. So he couldn't really say no. So he certainly... while he did, at the time, did mention that he felt that, you know, lying about an age is not always a good thing. So we knew. He knew. He taught values of what he felt the values of the community were. I was a lot shy. I mean, most people would probably not believe that I was shy. Most people now know me very unspoken. And certainly I speak my mind. I'm not afraid to do that. Now, back then I didn't. I was a lot more shy. The offer was made that, you know, because he moved to Melbourne, I returned to Melbourne with him, and I decided that I wanted to stay in Sydney. Okay. And the DS entered. Okay. And that was about 19. Do you still remain close with him? Yes. Okay, good. He's my first serve. All right. When I won Mr. Queensland Lover, he has a lovely place in Melbourne where he has two boys. And the boys come through the boys' entrance, not through the front door. So when I come and visit, I always go through the boys' entrance. Now, I'm not a slave. I mean, some of his boys identify as a slave. And I had never come out to him as a pup. I always was a boy. You should never underestimate a serve because they generally know that, you know, there's something different. Anyway, I messaged him and said, I won Mr. Queensland Lover. His response was, I know. I know you have. I won Facebook, remember? And which is something that wasn't there when we had the DS. Facebook wasn't a thing. Right. He invited me down. Yes, and I had airline tickets in my inbox. Oh, I'm going down to Melbourne. And I traveled down to Melbourne. I got picked up from Melbourne by one of the boys. I went to walk to the side entrance like I always do. The boys said, no, no, you need to do it. No, no, sir, you need to get into your leathers. No. And you need to go to the front door, which was really, it was humbling, but really took me back like, no, I always go to the boy's entrance. This is our thing. So it was humbling and scary. I was like, oh, wow, what do I do? So I got dressed in my formals. I had not seen sir in his formals for a very long time. Most of the time when I visited, he was in his suit in time. And at work, we'd make for coffee. But maybe they went back to the house and had dinner. And then on the other flight, they did something else. So it was always a fly in, fly out. This time I was staying for two days. Because I had not yet posted that I was Mr. Queensland Leather because I was not able to cope with the fact this was happening. I went very quiet. We scared our current committee who posted on my behalf because I went definitely, definitely silent. We then had a chat and I came in from my four leathers, I put the sash on and went to the front door and he answered the door. Which is unusual because the boys normally answer the door too. He answered the door and he's four leathers, which is always quite an impression when you see someone in their four leathers, especially someone with a dominant. And I walked up to him. It was always common practice to make him his drink. He knows he went to the library. So we went to the library and, no, no, no, no. I'll make you a drink. He just confronted me completely. He was almost like upside down, reverse. He said, not what's supposed to happen. And he made me a really good hand and he said, while you are not in the DS, you are the first who has ever been titled in my family. Well, I consider my family. None of my boys have ever entered competition. None of my boys have ever entered the political scene. You are the black sheep. That's what he said. I always was the black sheep, but I always was the black, the naughty one. And we sat down, we had a drink, and then I turned around and said, oh, I should let you know I'm the pup. And he went, no you're not. And I was taken aback by that. You can't say I'm not a puppy. You can't be a pup. A pup is a boy who's green, who's usually a sea. Not that kind of pup, a puppy. And I had my hood, that's it, a puppy. And he looked at me. Well, tell us how you found your paws. I found my paws. This is an interesting story. It's something the audience does need to know. I found my paws. That was prior to winning Mr. Queensland World Cup. I found my paws. My paws at ACON are in Lismore. So I had moved up from Sydney. No, sorry, Port Macquarie. I had moved up from Sydney, I hadn't gone to Lismore yet. I had gone from to Port Macquarie. I had moved up from Sydney. And I would go and get my gay fix. So I went back to Sydney because there wasn't a gay fix in Port Macquarie. I'm sure there was, and there probably is now. There were definitely gay people in Port Macquarie, lovely people, but it's always after because I like being the same. And I was scary. Because I also like leather. There wasn't many in Port Macquarie who were participating in the scene. OK. All that I could find. Glen Ferrero, who was the manager of ACON, turned around and said, you know, you're very grassy. Are you sure you're not a puppy? I'm like, what? What is this aspect of? And I went back to, oh, no, I'm not into animals. I'm not into bestiality, what are you talking about? Which is a common misconception because those who are puppies are definitely not into animals. You become puppy-like. You're more playful. And you certainly look for ways to have fun that a lot of dominance may not enjoy. Well, enjoy it, but won't admit that they enjoy it because it gives them something to be challenged by. So yes, I found my paws and I was looking online at what Puppy Play was. OK. And that was about 2012. And it was one night my partner who I'd been together with since 1998 walked in and completely freaked out, you know, and accused me of being a bestiality as well. Mm-hmm. And he put a little bit of a rip in our relationship for a little while because he had certainly upset because I was looking at doing this and I wanted to explore this. And I felt he was very close to the whole thing. So I was then encouraged to travel to Brisbane to bootcrow because puppies were becoming on the scene in Brisbane. So I went to bootcrow in Brisbane and found there were puppies in Brisbane and handlers. Anyway, my partner had also decided to do some research on puppy play and bought me my first hood. Oh, OK. But speaking of, you told me that each of the hoods has its own personality. Every puppy's different. So just because how I see puppy play is going to be very different to each individual. So I have different hoods and each hood has its own personality. Some puppies may only have one personality with different hoods. Some puppies may only ever have one hood. So every puppy's very individual where I am very much. I have a few puppies, personalities. And as I grew and found my paws I certainly did happen. You know, I'm known as Pup Scout. That name was first spelled S-C-O-U-T. Now it's spelled S-K-O-U-T. Oh, OK. So yeah, it's changed. And it's changed also by dominance. You know, their influence on me. So I've had three dominance since moving up to Brisbane. OK. So I've been in 3D essence. OK. You brought one of your hoods here. If you would share this hood, tell us about that. So this is Comet. Comet, OK. This is not my first hood. This is my second hood. All right. So Scout is my first and Comet is my second. Now Comet is a fur. So it's a leather, but it's not fur. I like it. OK. I hope the cameras can get a good look at this. It's very elaborate. And this is the prototype that Wayne and the Christian decided before he sold them. So he worked backwards and forwards in 2013 with how I wanted... usually he's designed my scout hood, which is his black one, how I wanted the fur. And it's interesting because when I said, I want a fur hood, the thing I got was I don't think I can do that. And yesterday he came back with, hold on, I found a nice fur and this is where Comet came from. And the reason it's called Comet is because it's left like a comet from the start. OK. And it's a big bright ball of ice and as it comes in, rips a hole in the habit and then disappears into the night. OK. And that's what Comet does. So you always know what Comet's about because you were coming and there'll be cameras knocked over, Christmas trees knocked over, and then he's gone. How do people know the different name for your different hoods? Different personalities. So if I put this one on, Comet will come out. OK. If I put a scout on, you'll get scouts. But for example, if you were to meet a stranger in a bar, you'd know me scouts. OK. So the first part, they'll meet me scout. Do you say call me scout? Yes. OK. So you actually work with them on that? Yeah. The first part they'll meet me scout is the lead. I guess the lead pup. Got it. And then spanking. So spanking is a naughty one, more playful, and is more sexual. So scout is very sexual. Sorry. Spanking is very sexual. Scout will do both. Comet is non-sexual. OK. OK. So Comet is very headspace. OK. And he needs to put headspace, and there's... But you told me when we were preparing for this chat that puppy headspace uses a different time continuum than other headspaces. What does that mean? How long is the history? OK. So once again, I've come up with a theory, and this is my theory, what I feel is a way of describing a continuum. If you look at people who are slaves, or people who are boys, and the gamma rate, there's a whole gamma rate, and they go into a headspace. And that headspace is not going to be the same, but we can almost look, they all have similar traits. They all have similar traits. I would even say dominance, and handlers, and daddies and mummies also have their own headspaces on the other end of the gamma type of thing. So what I believe is I have a boy, so I have a boy as well. So if I'm going to boy space, it's very different to puppy space. It's more yes sir, no sir type of thing. When there's puppy, it's like, there's less verbalization. It's R-offs. R-off. Howls. And it's not verbalized. Okay. Where boy is verbalized. Boy does not howl. Boy does not, where puppy does. Now, people, I mean this is the argument, you're going to have people may agree, people may disagree, that's why we are a community, which is nice. You know, if we all agree through everything, it would be quite boring. But I believe that there are loads of any form of headspace. Then you have the sub, all done, but the headspace where you start, you start losing reality. So with Slade Boy or something like that, servitude, you start going down that road. And what's expected, protocols, what the DS contract is. And you have that type of thing. With puppy, and because I can switch between the two, depending on what needs to happen, I will go to, say, a fourth level where I can still transact between the two, but it becomes quite blurry. So with puppy, you start losing the human element. So the human element is, hey, I have a dental appointment tomorrow, so I really shouldn't be being tied up, because I'm a bit funny about it. Puppy does not remember the dental appointment, but puppy doesn't care about the dental appointment tomorrow. Puppy does not care about work tomorrow. Because puppy headspace is about the hearing now. Oh, look, there's a ball. Oh, look, there's a squishy toy. I'm not thinking anymore about the consequence of what I want, because it's about the hearing now where with voice space, for example, or whether if I'm being more prattie, I know if I talk back, there's a consequence. I'm doing that for a consequence. I'm doing that for a reward. Puppy is not thinking through. It's not a fan thing. How did you learn this puppy headspace? Did you work with a handler? How did this indigenous come to you? I don't understand how you knew how to go into these subspaces and assume these puppy identities. I guess it's mimicking. I know how bio-dogs work. I've trained bio-dogs also. So I understand how they work and then mimicking that behaviour with puppy. I mean, with boy and I guess because I've already had done DS stuff. I had that understanding of protocol and subspace. And so I kind of... Well, I'm going to extrapolate that. Learn behaviour to what those puppies do. So puppies are more playful, more fun, they're a lot more... But then you realise that you're not thinking like a human. You've got to think like a canine. Is there mentorship in the puppy community? There is now, yes. When I was first starting out there was very little. There were definitely people like there was Pup Riot in Queensland and Pierre Brant who certainly were very good at excellent mentors. And they shared their experience. But Pup Riot certainly was one of the very few that were in Brisbane and we've exploded since then to a whole community. In to the point where he talks about headspace and how to find your paws and it's about that now. And you've got to lose your human elements. You're still human, you're still a human puppy. You never lose your human. So when people go, oh but I'm a puppy, don't want to hear it. You're still human. You still have responsibility for your actions. But you're becoming less human. You're becoming more puppy, more canine. And as you go further and deeper and deeper and it's almost like it's almost like when you do like those chimkins you go to like Pugna Pilates, those other ones. I hate them. I didn't know. It was waste of time. Yoga. Yoga. You know, meditation. Oh okay. And other stuff. It's almost like that. You go into a really relaxed state. And I believe the same with suspects. You know, you go into this state of mind. If you're going to be flulked or caned in subspace you know, that's part of what my boy does. You go into a different state of mind because normally someone's hitting you you're going to fight back because you have that element of fight or... Fight or flight. Yeah, fight or thing that happens. When your concentration is submitting to someone you no longer have that type of fight or do you trust it? You've done this trust and this is the same thing when you're being a puppy whether you have an alpha or a handler you're giving this trust that you will protect me and for that return you'll get the enjoyment of what puppy does for you. So alpha puppies have this we will have beta and amegas they get that element of enjoyment what that puppy does but they have that trust so all these relationships and these dynamics are built on trust and that's the key to a... I feel a successful media center relationship is having this element of trust and respect for both parties so it's not just one way street it's both parties so when with puppy for example when I go into the puppy headspace I'll go really really deep and you start losing you know I'm not able to drive for an hour or two after because I'm not capable if I get flogged I should have been behind the car I'm driving well because you're almost drunk because of all these door things that's going through your head you shouldn't be driving same thing when you're in a puppy when you're coming out of that space you shouldn't be operating machinery it's that simple because it's got the same principles behind what's happening in a normal radius and type of scene now when you're in your puppy space whichever it is do you have a master or do you have someone that basically is the puppy owner? no so you're just a free-range pup out there I have a sir who certainly takes on the handler role but it's more um and I mean there is certainly a puppy handler dynamic in that generally speaking I guess because of my position within the community has certainly become that I don't really have a handler I'm really self handled I generally find that when I do puppy now it's not in public it's now in closed doors it's not as public I mean it's now I don't get into the headspace like I used to um and one of the reasons are when I have started getting into the headspace at the Queensland Public Handlers Mosh as the president I would then have someone whisper say oh we need you to do something and you don't snap out of and I find that snapping out is really bad for the headspace so you're really in public you suddenly learn that oh I can't be a puppy out I've got to you've got to be this is why I have these levels I get to that level and I don't go any further with it so there's still that there's still more human there than puppy so you won't get the same interaction but in a private behind closed doors when puppy comes out puppy comes out what personal satisfaction does that afford you? puppy coming out or not coming out both the it's a catch 22 it really is it's some if you think of Maslow's hierarchy of needs almost I need to have my puppy come out but as I have been elected as president of the club I need to also make sure that others have a great and safe time with our wonderful committee we have an amazing committee and a fantastic community amazing across Australia which is really amazing very friendly, very caring puppy community who look after each other but when you're running an event or in that thing it's really hard to get into that to have puppy coming out but when you do you say you do it privately when you do and you go into that very deep puppy space what personal satisfaction does that afford you? I don't have to think about the world I don't have to think about tomorrow I don't have to worry about am I going to pay my phone bill it's very relaxing it's very soothing I don't have to worry I've been looked after, I've been cared for and I get to have fun there will always be those bills tomorrow but in that time in that right here and now they don't insist I'm no longer human I'm now a human puppy and as a human puppy I can't open a fridge door but I have learnt to with my paws but you've got to be fed you've got to be watered and if it's spanky there's going to be some form of sexual activity if it's Cromit who's coming out it's going to be more about playing with a baller doing puppy things rather than in your back it may be sitting it may be staying and doing what puppies do or maybe just laying in your cells and getting scratches and just having that nice connection and that time together which is just really important what advice have you for people new to the puppy community be you be who you want to be don't let anyone tell you what puppy is that's the same in any any BDSM or other community don't if you want to conform with what people say the norm is, that's your choice but we are a community and if we all look the same we would be robots so explore your puppy safely explore your community you may not be a puppy, you may not be a handler so you may be one or the other we may be both to be able to be you and just don't rush don't rush out and buy your first hood because in a year's time your personality can be so different that you may not want black, you may want pink and there's so many more options when I first came out there was one hood that fits all I actually have that hood here there was one hood that fits all that was it, that's the only hood you could buy that I first could find in my paws and then Wayne had one that did it sell very well and he noticed puppies were coming out so he brought it back out and they started selling but it wasn't just on the market like it was and now hoods are in such a variety of colour and design and makes different materials like neoprene, rubber, leather and they're everywhere is there such a thing as earning your hood? No I like leather some of the leather traditions and you know this is going to open up a can of worms because some people believe one thing and some people believe the other within the leather community there are certainly few left to describe to earning leather and I believe in some traditions not all of them but some traditions certainly for example I don't wear a mule cap I refuse to wear a mule cap my traditions and what I believe with the values is it must be earned it must be presented by community or you must have a house and your house sees you as a master or so otherwise I don't feel you should just go buy one because it was pretty puppy hoods are different because it makes your personality if you choose to there are puppies who don't buy hoods because they're puppy in a different way because you don't need to have gear and it's really important you don't need to have gear to be a puppy and you don't need to have you know a wardrobe and leather to be a leather person and it's really important that we can't lose sight it's about what's here it's about our heart and that's what I mean with the puppy you know go and find what your paws and then buy all the hoods if you want to buy a hood but don't be precious because everyone else who's wearing a hood and just a good pup scout has 27 hoods doesn't mean you have to have a hood what's the biggest misconception about you there's probably lots of misconceptions around me um some people would say I'm very soft inside with a hard exterior I like to portray that I'm very hard um I probably I am very soft I am very I find that you know the community has everything to me and um when I can find ways to be able to help I will and I do not like getting credit for it I will find other ways that other people get the credit not myself I will hide behind positions and pay the bills that's the presence of the ISIS folks um people don't need to know that when assistance comes that you know I may stamp my foot or you know put an argument up saying this is what something needs and a good example was a member had his medical equipment stolen from Bucco not from Bucco itself but Bucco I went to the community and asked Bucco to afford and we were able to replace his equipment for him um if another member did contact me and said oh you know have you seen this post in fact I would never have known and we may never have realised and he was just lucky that the club was in the position to be able to you know had it it's not that expensive and we can afford to help because without his equipment this person would die and unfortunately with our current government structures in Australia he already had his equipment replaced if you lose it you're going to replace it yourself or wait two years and it was stolen there was a police report so and this is where my first search says you get into the politics but you get into the politics to make a difference is it some people don't and I think that's really important you know the misconception is that you know I'm not always as hard as I may like to pretend that I am Pup Scout thank you for the fantastic interview here in Brisbane Australia yes thank you thank you very much