 Good morning, and welcome to the 32nd meeting of the Social Justice and Social Security Committee. Our first item of business today is a decision to take item 4 in private. Are we all agreed? We're agreed, thank you. Our next item is the consideration of a negative statutory instrument, the Scottish child payment and salary provision regulations 2022. This is the second additional instrument lead by the Scottish Government in connection with the amendments made by the Social Security Miscellaneous Amendment and Transitional Provision Scotland regulations 2022 to the Scottish child payment regulations 2020 that came into force on 14 November 2022. That was a tongue twister. The committee already considered an instrument setting savings provisions two weeks ago. The regulations for consideration today also breached the 28-day rule. The Scottish Government wrote to the committee to explain it needed to break this rule in order to ensure that the required provisions can come into force at the same time as the substantive provisions. Are members content to note the instrument? Yes, we're all agreed. No, no, no, it's okay, thank you. I just wondered why that's twice now in relation to this particular regulation. I know that it's important that we make those changes to the Scottish child payment, but that's been quite a long time coming. Still, we had to break regulations and rules to do it, so I just wanted to put on the record. I don't know if we should write to the minister and say, can we plan a bit more in advance in the future? Just continually breaking them isn't really a good way to do business. I was going to pick up at the same point. I may be able to answer Pam's question. I happen to sit on my delegated powers reform committee, which met on Tuesday to discuss these as well. We also had quite a lot of concern in regard to why this is the second one, and so we have actually written to the Scottish Government to ask them to give us an explanation, and I've asked for that response to be shared with this committee when it comes back from. Perhaps on this occasion we don't need to write separately, but once we see the response, perhaps respond to it that way, if that's helpful to the community. Your concerns have obviously been noted, and if you are happy to follow that procedure, then we'll hold off right in on this time and wait for that to come back. We'll move on to agenda item 3, which is an evidence session with representatives of voiceability on the organisation's progress to date in providing independent advocacy under the Social Security Scotland Act 2018. I welcome to the meeting Jonathan Senker, chief executive, who is joining us remotely, and Susan Douglas Scott, chair of trustees, and Emily Johnson, operations manager, who are joining us in the room today. Welcome. Thank you for accepting the committee's invitation to come and give evidence. Just a few points to mention about the format of the meeting before we start, because we're in a hybrid format. For Jonathan and members attending remotely, please wait until I or the member asking the question, say your name before speaking. Jonathan, if you could please allow our broadcasting colleagues just a few seconds to turn your microphone on before you start to speak, that would be helpful. You can also indicate with an R in the dialogue box and blue jeans, or simply with a show of your hand if you wish to come in the question. For all our witnesses, please don't feel you have to answer every single question. If you've nothing new to add, that's perfectly okay. Colleagues in the room should indicate to myself or the clerk if they wish to come in and ask a supplementary question, and committee members online should use the chat box or the WhatsApp. Just before we move on to questions, Mr Senker, I believe that you would like to make an opening statement, so I'm happy for you to come in now. Thank you very much, convener, and committee members. I'm really grateful for the invitation today just to introduce us and put us into context. Voiceability is an independent register charity working throughout Scotland. Our mission, our aim, the core of our being is making sure that people have a voice when it matters most, and we've helped to lead the development and delivery of advocacy for over 40 years now. We really recognise the strength of you from disabled people, disabled people's organisations, advocacy organisations and from the Scottish Government to put human rights at the heart of welfare benefits, and your understanding, their understanding, our understanding that this requires people to have access to independent advocacy. So we've been really delighted to have the opportunity to develop and deliver this service. We've made a positive early start. We've established from scratch a service that we believe is new not just to Scotland, but as far as we know internationally. We've put in place a really strong, skilled staff team, which Emily is managing and overseeing and leading systems and processes and relationships so that the service is well embedded and well networked across Scotland. We've made a positive early start, and we're really looking forward to having the opportunity to update the committee and look forward to your questions. Thank you very much, Mr Senker. I'll now move straight on to questions from members, and I will bring James Dornan in first, who is joining us online. I expect him to comment on the later questions, but I'm happy to ask that just now. It was going to be an item 3. Apologies, James. I've got you noted down wrong here on theme 1, so I can move over and bring you back in on theme 3 later if you're happy with that. Yeah, yeah, that's fine. All right, no problem. Sorry about that. Okay, well I will move first to Jeremy Balfour. Well good morning, good morning panel. Thank you all very much for coming. I really appreciate your time round this. This is one of the key areas that when we put this bill through and became an act and brought forward by Scotland Government, which is one of the things we were really keen to be able to provide for people in Scotland, and I'm grateful for what you've done so far. I wonder if I can just start off by asking, obviously it's early days, but how many people so far have you supported? I don't know whether Jonathan or Emily wants to take that. You can fight out amongst yourselves. Emily, please. That's fine, that's no worries. Okay, so to date we have had 576 referrals, and of those we have had 376 cases. 236 of those have been self-referrals or family friend referrals, and 127 referrals made from other organisations, whether it be professional organisations. How are people finding out about your service? Are people finding out via Social Security Scotland? Is it through your website? If I say I am a new person making a claim for adult disability payment, how do I find out you can offer the service to me? Okay, I'll take that question Jonathan, that's okay. We are at the moment in time doing a lot of engagement out in the community, speaking to organisations. We also have local hubs, where clients are attending, whether it be a community centre or a library, food banks, so it's getting that message out there and also through media as well as we've been doing a lot of advertising and with the support of the Scottish Government speaking with Social Security Scotland and various departments within the agency getting the message across. Thank you, and can I ask how many people are now working in Scotland? Okay, so staff members that we have at the moment in time is that we have 19 advocates, we have three team leaders, one operations manager, one contracts manager, one volunteer coordinator, one person in policy and one LND. I'll maybe just ask one more question and leave it to my colleagues to pick up other areas. Obviously you offer advice all the way through and including attending at tribunals. I'm just wondering with 17 advocates as disability and child move away through and go to tribunals. Obviously there can be up to eight, nine, ten tribunals meeting in Scotland ranging from Shetland down to Stornoway. Are you confident that you're able to provide that service for somebody on the day in the tribunal with that number of staff? I'll take that question then, Jonathan. So the support that we offer, we don't go up to the upper tier tribunal, the fact is the first tribunal, so it's a redetermination letter. So at the end of the fact is we'll obviously scale up with the guards too and then the fferals are coming through, so that's where we'll actually be obviously looking at further recruitment. But at the moment time, we are within our KPIs of making sure that people have actually been seen within a specific time, so I'm confident that at this moment in time that we have the staff available and we do to have another recruitment process happening at the beginning of next year. You didn't quite answer my question with respect and that is if when tribunals take place are you able to guarantee that you have enough people at the present time to cover those tribunals both number wise but actually geographically because, I don't know who your 17 advocates are based, but there could easily be a tribunal in Inverness and in Galashiers on the same day, plus the central belt. Are you able to assure us at the committee that if someone goes to that tribunal in the next few months that you will be able to advocate on their behalf at that first year tribunal? If I could just jump in there because I believe Jonathan Sanker would like to come in. He's been waving his hand quite vigorously there. Thank you, convener, and thank you, Mr Balfour. I think that as Emily is setting out, our model of support is one that we're going to scale as the need and the demand for the service increases and that Emily has described some of the work that we've been doing to raise awareness with a wide network of organisations and people. We're also continuing to work hard with the Scottish Government and with the Social Security Agency to make sure that the understanding of advocacy and the need to refer to advocacy and the benefits of referring to advocacy are really well embedded. We've made a commitment to make sure that we provide support to people when they need it, where they need it. We're confident that we're able to meet that demand and we'll scale up to meet that demand. We recognise that there may be challenges of different people requiring different supports at different levels and different parts of Scotland at the same time. That's the commitment that we're making through the contract. We're confident and we will obviously need to continue to review things as we roll out the contract as demand for our service increases with awareness. Our commitment is to meet the needs of those people, including at tribunal. I would like to echo Jonathan's points. As the chair of trustees, it's my responsibility to seek assurance from our executive teams that they are delivering on our strategic plan. Our strategic plan is that we have an organisation that supports anybody who needs a voice at that time. We're committed to that. As Jonathan said, it's a scale-up organisation in Scotland. We've set up a very successful team, led by Emily, to date. I have been given continuous assurance that that team is growing and developing as the need emerges through the referral systems that have been set up. We would like to see more people coming to us. That's why we're keen to continue with our recruitment drive so that we make sure that as many disabled people who need independent advocacy around social security benefits in Scotland will get that service wherever it is that they need it in Scotland. I will come back to you. I've got questions around recruitment, but I'll wait till the next section. I'll wait for you. Thank you very much, Jeremy. I'll now move on to questions from Pam Duncan-Glansley before we move on to our next team. Thank you, convener, and good morning. Thank you for the information that you've shared so far and also for answering the questions so far. I'm interested to take my colleague Jeremy Balfour's questions and consider the sort of support. Can you give us a flavour of the sort of support that people are getting? What are you doing with them? What kind of questions are you asking with them? Is it face-to-face? Is it online? Just give a bit of a flavour of the kind of support that people get. Jonathan? Perhaps if I click off on that and then hand over to Emily. Our support is very much tailored to what it is that individual people want and need. So people that I've spoken with have talked to me about the support that they've received in the way that was right for them. One person I spoke with spoke about how incredibly difficult it was to find the time, to find the energy to make sure that she submit a trial to disability payment applications around the very real challenges that she had back in supporting her children. So the support that we provided to her was a series of three sessions. It was by phone because that was what she could fit in. She couldn't come into an office. She didn't want us to come into what was already a quite challenging situation for her, for other people we've worked with, with people face-to-face. It's been absolutely critical. I've heard from people that they've previously had application forms sat on the kitchen table because they could not face working through that. I've heard of people and spoken with people who've previously applied but felt that they couldn't express their views in a way that was understood well. So that support, be confident to express their views, has been really vital to people and has enabled people to apply for benefits where previously they've either not felt able to or have been unsuccessful because they haven't been able to express themselves. If I hand over to Emily to invite her to give a further view from our clients and our members of staff. Thank you very much for that. The answer to your question with regard to face-to-face, 37 per cent of our clients have requested a face-to-face appointment and have received that service. Thank you both for that. When they do request a face-to-face appointment, where are you based for that? I'm sorry, I'll take that question. So there can either be in the community, in the local community somewhere nearby, and in the library it could be within a community centre. It can be within their home visit as well. So we obviously deliver the service that suits their needs. Do you have any permanent physical base in Scotland? We have an office based in Glasgow where that is our base. If that does at the end of it, it's used. Our advocates are best from home, so it's easy accessible for them to get out to the community as quickly as possible to see our clients if they wish. I've been in that and it's successful. That's good to know. I'll pop in and say hi at some points in. The other question that I was going to ask is, the figures on redeterminations for child disability payments suggest that 86 per cent of them are being allowed, which means that 86 per cent of decisions in the first time round are not correct in those cases. Do you have any information from the work that your advocates are doing or the clients that you're working with that could help us to understand why that might be the case, and what are the sorts of things that you're supporting clients with when it comes to things like redeterminations, as opposed to initial applications? Jonathan, do you want to take that or do you want me to take it? Happy for you to do so. My sense, and Emily, you'll be able to add to this, is that it's quite early days in terms of our experience, but it's something that we're keen to gather information so that we can provide further information to the committee on this. There may be some early signals coming through though, Emily, that you can add to on. The majority of the cases that we have dealt with have been ADP. 88 per cent of our cases have come through from adult disability, 12 per cent being child disability payment. We are due to start speak out forums in the new year, where that will give us an opportunity to speak to stakeholders and to clients that have gone through the service, where we'll be able to ask questions, ask them to get their voices heard and be able to feed that information back through the appropriate channels. I know that there's a question on reviews later, and I hadn't actually put one down in that area, but just to follow up on that, do you gather that information, like do you collect data on what people are approaching you for? Mr Senker, you said earlier that some people are saying that the application sits on their kitchen table, because they just can't face doing it. Are you gathering the sorts of things that people are asking you about, and are you gathering the sorts of things that are determining the redeterminations? Every time a case is closed, we send out a client survey, so when they send it back to us, yes, we gather that feedback. Some people have said that they couldn't have gone through this application without the support that we've given them. We do feed that back, and we feed that back to the Scottish Government on a regular basis. Redetermination, we've done two. One of the clients that we got through was very thankful for the support, and it was awarded. She was very much over the moon because I got that dated. If there are two redeterminations, I might be making some assumptions here that aren't case, but the figure suggests that, for adult disability payment, there have been five redeterminations decided. For child disability payment, there have been 250. Do you have any sense as to why only two of them have come through your service? I can't answer that, to be honest, beyond the fact that it's the end of it. We are trying to—sorry, Jonathan, do you want to come in? Yes, if I may, thank you. This is a relatively early stage in the development of the service, and what we've been doing is very much focusing on strengthening the systems and processes, both with Social Security Scotland, but there is some way to go to make sure that it is truly embedded in the process of that offer of advocacy. We know that there is a shared commitment with the Social Security Agency to make sure that that offer of advocacy is well embedded in the systems processes and members of staff that they are understanding, and there are some positive steps that we've taken together with them that, no doubt the committee may wish to ask further about, but it is relatively early days, so we would not at this stage expect, unfortunately, that everyone who is in the redetermination process has been yet informed about their right to advocacy. We would like to get there, and we know that the Social Security Agency are keen with us to reach that point. I'll just bring Susan in. I think that she had a follow-up to that, if you still want to come out. Just to say that I've been involved over the years in a number of programmes that have started from ground zero, such as this programme. In my experience, it takes time for the word to get out, and no matter how much networking the organisation does, people do not always know. Also, there is not the evidence yet to show the success of the organisation that we are building. You have made a good point to make sure that we are absolutely clear and gathering information around what type of support we are giving to people, doing that in a way that is discreet enough that we are not going to identify people. However, we can gather up pieces of evidence that say that there is an area that people are really struggling with. What are the barriers then to people being able to access those benefits? In Scotland, we have the value base, and the value base of the organisation of voiceability matches that as well. It is about supporting people to live as equal citizens, and that is all part of that process. I have confidence that that will grow, but it is just early days. I appreciate that. I am interested in what Mr Sincar said about the relationship between Social Security Scotland and yourself. There is obviously an expectation that you will promote your service that is expected. I am sure that you are. Is there anything that can be done further if there is something that you specifically think that Social Security Scotland could do that would help with that referral process? I think that there is a very positive relationship with Social Security Agency while recognising our absolutely independent world within this. It is fair to say that it is taking some time with all of the work that they have to do to make sure that the understanding of advocacy is embedded not just into people's training, but also into the systems, processes, forms and information. We know that there is commitment from the Social Security Agency to doing that. There are some important positive measures that have been taken. For example, I met two of their front-line advisers earlier this week that have also taken on a responsibility to act as champions for the need for advocacy within Social Security Scotland. There are some positive measures that are being taken as well as that. We will focus on making sure that the offer of advocacy is embedded into their information, into their systems, into their processes, into their training. It is relatively early days and we are keen that that work does gather paves. I would like to follow up through the work that Johnathan has stated, the work that we have been working very closely with the Scottish Government and Social Security Scotland being involved and being given provided an overview to many of the departments within the agency. Johnathan spoke about the champions. There will be eight champions. There will be four in child disability and four in adult disability, two in Glasgow and four in Dundee. Our first meeting takes place next week with two of the champions in Glasgow. That will give us an opportunity to start building those relationships and to see how we can work together successfully to make sure that we are getting the messages out there to the people of Scotland based on the work that we can do. We have also provided a lot of overviews and presentations. We have also got Ms Stewart who has kindly sponsored our event that will be happening in Parliament next year, in February. The work that we are doing, both for the Scottish Government and Social Security Scotland, is working really well. We will move on to our next theme, which is recruitment and training. I have Miles Briggs first to be followed by Jeremy Balfour. A lot of the questions have already been touched upon, but is it possible for the committee to be provided with where advocates are based and what regions they are covering, specifically when they are working across health board areas? We have an advocate in Ayrshire and Arran. We have an advocate in Borders. Is that the information that you are asking for? If you could write to us on an ongoing basis, if there is an opportunity to update us on recruitment so that we can see what that looks like, that would be really helpful. We know that complaints to Social Security Scotland have risen by over 400 per cent, so I just wondered if you are already getting feedback on why that would be. Are the complaints going to Social Security Scotland? Yes. The conversations that you are having with clients. I am sorry, Emily. I think that Jonathan you had wanted to come in, so your hand up a second ago. Was that on this point? It was actually on the prior point just to give the committee the reassurance that we have coverage across the whole of Scotland. We have advocates in each of the areas. At the moment, there is one health board area that we have a temporary vacancy that should be filled in a couple of weeks or so and cover across that. Our commitment is absolutely to make sure that there is that coverage. We have the capacity currently and will continue to expand and flex that according to the demand. I would not know that. That is not a suggestion that takes place with ourselves and Social Security Scotland and the Scottish Government. In terms of the SPK forum that you are planning to develop, is that something that would be included in capturing why people are making those complaints, whether it is with regard to the system or an outcome? The Speak Out Council gives clients the opportunity to speak about their journey. We will be asking them questions about their journey as a whole, whether that be with Social Security Scotland or other providers that they have engaged with, identifying any gaps that are available. We can collate that information and bring it back to speak with the Scottish Government. As part of that data collection, will you also be looking at waiting times for an advocate and also cancellations that have taken place? That is also important. We will definitely be discussing that because that is the fact that we want to make sure that people are being seen within an appropriate timescale. That is important. Finally, convener, with expansion plans and in the current market, are you finding it difficult to recruit advocates with the necessary experience? What sort of training provision have you also developed? You're happy for me to take that, Jonathan? Oh, Jonathan, that's what he's hand up. Perhaps if I sort of head off and then ask you to provide some additional information. Broadly, we know that it's a difficult employment market for many organisations. We are actually finding that we are recruiting successfully some people with a remarkable range of skills, both from their own lived experience and from their wider life and career experience. So, whilst, like every organisation, recruitment is more challenging now than it has been at some other times, we have not found that to be a limiting factor at all. We're really proud of the staff team that we have established and we've been able to fill the posts that we need. We're confident that, in the months and years ahead, we'll be able to develop the service so that it meets the needs of people that are coming forward. We work, like many organisations, to make sure that we are a great place to work, both in terms of the training that we provide to provide a full range of training in relation to advocacy and our core skills and understanding around advocacy, making sure that there's the right support and training to interact effectively with people in support of their benefits application and with the system. We're looking further at how it is that we can make advocacy an attractive career for future generations. So, some early work that we're doing, particularly with schools, which you'll probably want to pick up on, as well as expanding on some of those points. Recently, we've been doing some work with Govan High School, where we had a group of pupils that came along for a five-day introduction into advocacy and given them some skill sets. Obviously, providing them a certificate at the end of it is our plan to take that across a further four schools in next year. With regard to your question and training, is that correct? We have an L&D department that has been working very closely with Social Security Scotland in making sure that we all have the correct tools to give to our staff that are coming into the business. When we go through our three-week induction, that is all part of that process, and we have signed up to the Social Security Scotland newsletter that allows us to attend webinars to keep ourselves abreast of any changes that are coming and so forth. That's very helpful. Thank you, and just very briefly, I wondered, in terms of travel costs, so they also covered for either the client or the advocate going to visit the client. I'll now bring in Jeremy Balfour to be followed by Pam Duncan Glancy. If I'm honest with you, I am surprised by the lack of number of people that are working for you. I just did a quick google. I think that there's eight tribunals sitting today, which would mean that if one of one per region of Wales were taking half your staff would be at tribunals. I'm just wondering about the recruitment. I looked to your web page yesterday and you're not at the present recruiting any advocates. I think you're recruiting one policy officer according to your website. I'm just wondering when is the scale-up going to happen and what is the timescale for that in regard to recruitment? I'll just bring in Jonathan to answer that one. I think he's got his hand up there. Thank you, convener, and thank you, Mr Balfour. We will scale-up the service according to the demand that's coming through, so when people need the service, we're looking at the figures very carefully so that we can anticipate that and we will make sure that everyone that is requesting the service is able to receive it. I mentioned earlier about waiting lists. We do not have waiting lists and our response times are extremely fast to people. The model of the service is one where we make sure that there's the right support to people who are approaching it. We don't want to employ members of staff and then not have work for them to do. That's not good use of your funds or our members of staff's motivation and time. What we've done, given the relatively low number of referrals early on, is to redirect those members of staff so that they're able to generate the understanding, the awareness and ultimately leading to people requesting the support service. Can I just follow up on your modelling? Where would you expect to be this time next year in regard to the number of advocates that you had in Scotland? This is an entirely new situation, not just for us but also for the delivery of benefits in Scotland. Rather than plucking a figure or giving a projection that may look very convincing on a graph, what we're doing is reviewing the uptake on a continuing basis. We're recruiting so that we're ahead of that. We do not have currently, as a limiting factor, our capacity. That is not the limiting factor, so we're determined to work through our networking and through our links with the Scottish Government and Social Security Scotland to make sure that those numbers increase. We will be ahead of that curve in making sure that our recruitment is in place. One final question, convener. In regard to the arrangements that you have with the Scottish Government, is the money that you receive based on the number of people that you're employing? Is there an upper limit to the number of staff that you can employ in regard to the contract that you have with the Scottish Government? I think that I saw £20 million worth of a figure that you had in mind in two to three years' time for this. Is that dependent on the number of staff that you employ, or if you could maybe just give us a wee bit information around that? Thank you. Our overall model is where the payment is mainly driven by the work that we actually do. There's a certain capacity payment to make sure that our basic systems, processes, staffing are in place. Overwhelmingly, over time, it's a demand-led service. The basis for that is making sure that the money is going to ensure real delivery of services, support and outcomes for individuals. I'll now move on to questions from Pam Duncan-Glancy before we move on to our next theme. I'm just keen to know a bit more about the numbers of jobs, to be honest, just to ask further on that area. When the minister came to committee, the minister said that the voice ability would create 100 new jobs and that 75 per cent of staff would come from long-term unemployed sectors. Do you know when you'll have those 100 new jobs available? I hear Mr Sinker's point about the number of staff not being a limiting factor. If there is another limiting factor, it would be helpful to know so that we can help you to address that. I'm not sure if the minister is saying 100 and you're saying that it will be kind of demand-led, but I wonder how long it will get to that point. I think that there will be quite a bit of demand, so it would be helpful to know a bit more about that, if that's okay. Thank you for your very good questions. The limiting factor is—or the important thing that we want to drive here is the number of people who receive the service, because, like you, we know that it's a service that is really needed. That's where both our networking and our work with Social Security Scotland is so critical in this. I understand that the figure of 100 is the overall envelope, so the upper limit to the funding that's available. I believe that this service is going to be incredibly important, incredibly successful, and that, like you, I believe that there will be a large number of people who come forward that will want to, in which case, we will start to move towards that number of employees. There is no benefit for people in us moving the capacity in a way that's far, far beyond the current demand. We have well beyond the current demand in order that we can use those people to make sure that we get the word out, but we're really employing all of the people to do the work that needs doing at the moment, and we're looking ahead to that. I could not meaningfully give a set date in time in the future when we know that we're going to hit a particular number of staff, but I can give you a commitment that we will do everything possible to make sure that we always have the staff to respond to the people who are coming forward. Our record so far suggests that we will be able to do that. Thanks, Jonathan. I'm just going to bring in Susan to be followed by Emily, who I think wanted to respond there. We're about a fifth of a way there to the 100, if you like, in a relatively new service, but my experience of working with Scottish Government and other organisations where we have a sponsorship arrangement is that we really have evidence that we're effectively spending that money, so until it's that catch-22 situation, until we get the referrals, we can't draw down the money to employ more people or give evidence that that's growing, but that's what we're doing. We will, as Emily said, the next recruitment drives us next year, 2023, so I would envisage that over that year we'll start to move forward, but I think it will be that slow steady progress as we build the Scottish team and make sure that that's sustainable, that people have got the positive roles, because then they'll stay. If they've not got the referrals coming through, as Jonathan says, we won't be able to give them things to do, they won't be engaged, whereas if we're doing it in the way that we're doing at the moment and growing slowly but steadily, I have confidence that that will then offer a sustainable, strong, values-driven organisation. I've met with the team, they're really passionate, they're a fantastic group of people. The world of advocacy tends to be very passionate people because they really believe in people's rights, so the more we look after them as well as a team of employees, the better and stronger I think that the team in Scotland will be as it continues to grow. Emily, I'll bring you in. We currently have five advocates that are on-boarding at this moment in time, and, as obviously what Susan Douglas Scott had just said, we will have a recruitment campaign going live just before we break up for Christmas over the Christmas period, and if we have to run it again, we will do it. We constantly look at our reports on a weekly basis, we look at where the numbers are growing significantly, and that's when obviously the fact is where we will look to bring in those advocates to accommodate those numbers that are coming through. That's really helpful. On the figures that we've got for the projected spend, I think that there's been about half a million spent so far and then a forecast of 20 million over four years, does that forecast, is that based on recruiting a specific number of staff? I believe that the 20.4 million figure was based on the staffing complement reaching 100 members of staff. I think that that was a linkage, but I'll revert to the committee if there's any to look at between that and the actual situation, but that's my recollection on it. Thank you. I just have one further question, and it's around training. I appreciate those answers, thank you. It's obviously really important, and I know that Susan Douglas Scott will specifically appreciate this because I know that she's done some of this training in the past, but it will be really important that your organisation and your staff have an understanding of the lived experience of disabled people and what that means for a service like yours. Could you set out the ways in which you're training your staff to understand disability, equality and what that means, and if you have any relationships with disabled people's organisations to help that? Johnathan, would you like to come in? Happy to do so and to draw Emily in to add as ever. As an organisation, we absolutely recognise the importance of disabled people's experience at the heart of what we do. Our trustee board includes many disabled people and, throughout the organisation, many of our employees are disabled people and have lived experience, so we need to ensure and do ensure that that's at the heart of our mindset and our approach. We've developed links with many different disabled people's organisations in Scotland, both umbrella organisations and organisations that are working alongside people on the ground. Emily, you might want to say a little bit more about the specific training in that three-week training period. The three-week training period will look at some e-learning as well as with regard to training that we do with our staff at disability training. We are also in talks with RNIB. The fact is not to support with some training there and support that will continue to link in with various organisations. Johnathan recently met deafblind Scotland, so we will continue to look and work in partnership together to make sure that we are dealing with those clients appropriately. We have a brief supplementary from Deputy Convener Emma Roddick. Thank you very much, convener. I just wanted to pick up on something that Susan had been saying to Pam in that line of questioning. She can please correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounded like there was an expectation that referrals will grow, so is it not expected to be the case that the launch of the benefit is where the highest need is going to be? Sorry, I don't understand your question. If referrals will grow in the future, it's not now that the highest number of people will be needing support. We will expect that the more people apply for benefits, the more referrals will get and also the more people will get to know about it. Within the population of Scotland, there are many more people going to come forward for both adult disability benefit and child disability benefit. As those new referrals come through, that's likely when there's going to be perhaps a time where they won't get through the initial application process or they'll need support with the initial application process, and that's where they might need an independent advocacy, so we would see those referrals continuing to grow to voiceability to our independent advocates. Thank you. Jonathan, would you like to come in on that? I think that Susan covered it very, very well. We've got two factors at play here. The first is the availability of benefits, and as the deputy convener pointed out, obviously a critical point, and that was the launch and the roll-out of ADP. We've got a second factor in this, which is the knowledge and awareness of our services, and that's something that's growing continuously. I think that we've got a third factor also, which is the degree to which we really embed within the working of the social security benefit system, that knowledge and understanding of the offer of advocacy. When we look at those things together, we're confident that the demand on our service will grow as the knowledge and understanding of it does so. Thank you. I'll now move on to questions from Paul MacLlanan. Thank you, convener. I'll just move on to the monitoring, reporting and evaluation of the service. A couple of questions, I think, from myself. One was in the bout, and you've touched on this. What formal reporting and monitoring arrangements are in place between yourself, Social Security Scotland and the Scottish Government? Probably come to yourself first of all, Emily. That's fine, that's nice. I know that John Swin wants to come in there as well. Thank you. We've produced a quarterly report for the Scottish Government, and then, on a fortnightly basis, we have regular meet-ups to discuss the service, anything else that we can do to support our service. At that meeting, we have recently had the privilege of having two team leaders from Social Security Scotland that have been attending to see how else they can support the work that we're doing. John Swin, do you want to come in on that one? Emily has covered it perfectly. You mentioned the Scottish Government. Does that include Social Security Scotland, as well as are they involved in the discussions at the same stage? At the meetings that you have? They do, they attend, yes. If there was anyone else that the Scottish Government felt that it would be appropriate to attend, our fortnightly sessions and meetings would obviously bring them in at that point. I take this for a moment and it's in the bin, Kate. The more certainly are. Sorry, Paul, just before you move on, I see that Jonathan has his hand up. Just to add to that, in terms of continuous liaison, of course, it is really important that the Social Security Agency are involved. Just to stress the point that we are absolutely accountable for public money that's being spent and for the overall performance of the service, and that's why we have that robust monitoring arrangements in place. Our loyalty, our independence, our focus of the service is absolutely on the individuals to whom we provide that. It's not a reporting relationship in terms of being accountable for how we work with individuals, it's a reporting relationship in terms of ensuring accountability for public spending and accountability for our performance, as well as a regular channel to make sure that we're working together effectively as independent colleagues. That's an extensive answer, thank you for that. The next question was really just a slight move on from that one. It was more on about how you evaluate the service provision, and I think you mentioned before, Emily, that I end about the involvement with those with lived experience, so particularly maybe focusing on those with lived experience having part of that evaluation process. Again, I'll probably come to yourself if Jonathan wants to come in after that, but just on that. So after every case closes, we actually send out a survey to our clients to collect the information that they want to share with us about the service. Like I said earlier on, next year we'll start to introduce our speak-out forums, where the fact is that clients can come and sit in local community centres or through providers that we'll be working with to come along and talk about the service. That will be what we've delivered, that they've experienced through their journey through other providers, and also the fact is that we will be doing it at the end of the first year. An evaluation as well as a factor, so we will do another survey out to those clients that have had the service to ourselves as well as. Emily, thank you for that. I don't know if Jonathan wants to add in to that again, that was quite extensive. Emily, thank you for that. Nothing to add. Fantastic, Paul. Thank you. I'll now move to questions from James Dornan, who is joining us online. Thank you very much, convener, and apologies for the confusion earlier on. I welcome committee. Thanks very much for being here, and Susan, it's always nice to see you again. Can I ask that 10 months now the service has been providing the service, what would you say were the one or two things that you've learned so far over that first 10 months that you would take forward in the future? I suppose that Emily might be good. That's fine. That's no worries whatsoever. What have we learned? The fact is that you're right that it's still early days, but by looking at data that we collate on a daily, weekly, and on a quarterly basis, we are seeing trends of maybe not seeing a lot of unrepresented groups that are engaging on the service, so that is something that we obviously need to work with. We've currently started working with a refugee council to help us on that side of things. What else have we learned? We have learned that we are not seeing a lot of redetermination coming through. I can understand that, and it's work that we need to do further as well. I'm sorry, I was frozen there. I wasn't sure if you'd finished speaking or not. Thanks very much, Emily. Susan, you've been part of a number of organisations where you've worked with the Scottish Government. I wonder if you could give me your oversight of how things have been going over the last 10 months? I'm very content with the steady progress, James. We're building a solid foundation. As I said, I've met the team. They seem very passionate about disabled people's rights and really keen to support the people that they're working with. Each of them has a caseload, so although we don't have a huge number of advocates, we're able to support more people than in terms of numbers going forward. It's exciting to see a new service grow and it being a national service. The other thing that I've enjoyed seeing is the organisation starting to embed itself as part of the landscape of advocacy providers in Scotland. I think that that's important because it's always difficult for a UK organisation to have an ambition to be a UK organisation means that you have to work in each of the four nations, so that's our ambition. I'm there to support that as chair of the board. It's great to see that this has landed. There's been some tricky conversations, as there always is, about who should be doing what and how do we work together. However, as an organisation, again, officers are taking that steadily and having those conversations leaning into them and just developing a strong foundation in place for voiceability as an active and committed provider of advocacy services in Scotland. I'm excited by it. It's great. That's a very positive response, Susan. Just one last question. In terms of the annual reports, do you plan to include more detail on service use in Scotland in future annual reports, or do you think that the way that it will be that it's going to be done now is fine? If you would like to come in, Susan, that's fine. Jonathan up, the annual report is the report that belongs to the trustees and to the executive of the organisation. It's a reflection, but it's a high-level reflection, so we don't get into a lot of operational detail in those reports, but I'm always content to be able to provide back-up information to MD that asks about more of the detail that's going on. As Emily and Jonathan have both alluded to, they are gathering evidence, they are gathering information, and we will continue to revert to committee if they need more information. Obviously, to our sponsor team within Scottish Government, they get a lot of the detail of what's happening on a month-to-month basis. Emily, would you like to follow up on that? Yes, definitely. Thank you very much for that. When it comes to the annual report as well, the fact is that we will be speaking to Scottish Government to see if there's something else and any further information that they would wish us to provide in that report, which we'll obviously be happy to provide. Thank you, James. I'll now move to questions from Faisal Tawdry, who is also joining us online. Thank you very much, convener. Good morning, panel. The committee has heard all too often that data on ethnicity is not collected by a variety of organisations. That often makes it much harder to find areas where outcomes are very significantly for minorities. Is there a way that data on client ethnicity can be sensitively collected by voiceability or further annual reports? Oh, sorry. Who are you directing on that question to? Apologies, Faisal. James? I think that Emily wants to come in, so I'll bring Emily in first. We collect that information at this moment in time. It is provided to Scottish Government, EOI, but it is protected characteristics that we are collating from our clients. We do give that information to the Scottish Government. Emily is absolutely right. The point and the question is very well made. Your phrasing of the question is particularly important, because that focus on equality of outcomes, not just equality of access, is one that is really important to us. It is relatively early days for us in terms of being able to draw any conclusions from that. Beyond that, as Emily indicated, that, like many organisations, there is further work that we need to do to make sure that people from all communities can access the service. We have developed strong links that will help us to do so. Emily mentioned the refugee council. I have been in touch with the umbrella organisation for carers from black minority ethnic community groups. It is something that we will continue to monitor carefully, but it is also more important that we make sure that we tie real actions to that, so that we increase equality of access and equality of outcome. I move to questions from Deputy convener Emma Rode. I have just got one question left, convener. I wanted to pick up on Emily's comments earlier on the speak-out forums in terms of valuing lived experience. It sounds like a really good opportunity, but I wondered if the impact of those will be entirely internal or will decisions change, or even conversations that come off the back of those be shared more widely? The information that we collate will be shared with the Scottish Government. Jonathan, would you like to come in and give any further information on that? We are just a sort of guest to restate that commitment. Obviously, we want to learn for ourselves, but we also want to make sure that people's voices are heard across the system. Already, we have some small but significant examples. Perhaps we can write a committee about that afterwards, where, through people's voices being heard, the issues that they are facing, new issues have been identified, as there always will be in the roll-out for a new system, and the system has been able to respond to make sure that those barriers do not affect other people. We are keen to draw in lessons from others through amplifying the voices and bringing together the voices of people who draw on the support service, and it will not be for purely internal use. It is also for the fact that it is at the end of his to help the Scottish Government when they are evolving the service that we are delivering at the moment in time to help them to make any changes, identify any gaps that will help them for the future when they put their beds forward as well. It is important that we share the information and we make sure that we are making sure that their voices are being heard of the people of Scotland. We just have one last question, I believe, from Jeremy Balfour. If you could make it quick, please, we have just under four minutes left. One area that we have not covered, and I have just been trying to note, is what relationship you have with other advocacy services across Scotland. I have had a constituent come to me here in Edinburgh. He went to one of the local authority ones, and they have a waiting list as long as you are on. Are people like the advice shop, other third sector charities aware that you are out there? I am just wondering why they are not referring them on to you if they cannot take on new cases at the moment. I have been in touch with many of the advocacy organisations, as well as carers organisations and disabled people's organisations in Scotland. Obviously, the SIA, the umbrella organisation, we have been keen to establish good links to make sure that people are aware of our services and can refer to us. We will continue to work with them to encourage them to support them in doing so. When you are writing to us with all the other information, you could just give us a list of who you have been in touch with across the whole of Scotland in regard to that, just so that there may well be gaps that people like Emma Know are opening off of Scotland that are not well known. Perhaps you could give us that list that would be really helpful. Be very willing to do so, thank you. That is great, thank you Jeremy. If you could follow up with that information, that would be fantastic. I want to say thank you all for appearing this morning. We will now move into a private session. Can members who are joining us remotely please use the Microsoft Teams link in their calendars to join the meeting? Thank you and I will officially close the open part of this meeting.