 I asked you to software, but I want to ask you again because the last time I saw you you were like a good 15 pounds of lean body mass smaller Yeah, so how size is everybody at least you look jacked right now. It's the shirt. No, it's not It's not you know, I'll get out of here You put on some serious muscle recently. What do you do in differently? What's going on duck at home for maps and a ball is I Did I did the the Russian kettlebell start? So I spent the first half of COVID training for that so it had ton of cattle. How'd you like that a ton of overhead farmers walks and snatches Turkish get-ups And I would just keep ordering heavier and heavier kettlebells No, that was I love it and I want to do RKC to but they keep moving it with the with the pandemic farther in the future So every time I get excited about the snatch test again, it just gets thrown a little bit farther down the road You and then I did a lot of BFR training a lot of BFR training like three times a week To failure full-body BFR training We well my kids actually got a lot of really good meat sponsors for their podcast like Bell Campo and butcher box and then This guy named Ty Lopez who partnered up with Joel Salatin He's got a farm now So they're sending my podcast meat for that and so we we have a ton of me We have a ton of organ meats I started doing about 12 of those ancestral supplements organ capsules like hard liver kidney What else they got lung they got brain so a ton of liver and yeah liver organ meats kettlebells BFR training and Then I'm still doing a lot of BPC and TB 500 the animal between yeah Did it does it feel like your body was like Craving to grow because it seemed like you just put it on do you feel like you were holding it back? And then you know and you feel better with more muscle mass. Oh, yeah. Yeah Well, I was telling Adam especially going into the winter when you don't want to be cold and frail week I don't want to be the first one that the wolves or the bears get and But in all seriousness, I like to maintain a little bit of extra muscle But my all the guys in my family are so lean. It's hard like you do have to eat a lot really and For me probably with my one week link if I have one week link it's gut I have to be careful when I'm eating a lot to really select my food You know like we were talking about I'm doing no FOD maps no legumes no Prebiotic fibers very few probiotics. So I'm pretty much doing like meat tubers fish bone broth organ meats You know some berries still doing a little bit of like a good clean protein powder with some Colostrum and things like that in the mornings, but yeah, just a lot of nutrient-dense super clean food But it is hard to eat. I imagine you're similar. I mean, we have a similar bone structure or similar height I would think that you have to be north of 4,500 calories to to maintain or yeah I think 4,500 for me right now would be tops. I think I'm going like 3,500 or 4,500 I found once I started over this little lady next next to me right here. She just keeps shoving food in my face and Well, you're both obviously a picture of health, I think you guys represent what you talk about pretty pretty darn well So that's that's that's pretty cool Do you notice any changes in performance because with more muscle mass because you are you know, you know Most of time I know I've known you you like to really do things like obstacle course racing Yeah, all things and yeah, is it make it more challenging because you're heavier or is the strength offset that well we were talking with the doctor this morning because we're going over to a clinic after this to get just some some work done and The doctor asked me what what hurts and I pause them It's nothing like I I feel great because and you hit on something there. I'm not racing anymore And that's probably a big part of that's a big part of the weight gain too is I went from running You know sometimes 20 30 miles I'm running maybe my running right now is when I go check the mail I sometimes run up from the mailbox So I'm running like a mile a week right now and then we play a little bit of family tennis We do family tennis usually a couple of nights a week and so a lot less chronic cardio a lot less running I was even trying to for a triathlon last year So a lot less swimming a lot less cycling and just basically a lot of kettlebell and a lot of BFR Yeah, the thing about resistance training that I like so much and one of the reasons why I think it's the perfect Exercise prescription for the modern for modern life is that it's pro tissue whereas lots of cardiovascular activity tends to be you know anti Tissue as your body tries to become more efficient and become better at this kind of long-duration high oxidative stress type of activity Resistance training done properly just for longevity not saying you shouldn't do any cardiovascular activity, but resistance training just it's better For longevity you just feel better. It's a totally different feeling. I think I think Honestly, the is simple and and non complex as it sounds. I think lifting heavy weights Walking a shit ton and then playing some sport that forces you to sprint every once in a while It's just like that's that's the perfect match. I would I think I think that that's it Just it's just about everything from a physiological stand. I would a hundred percent agree back to the gut health thing I've read studies that show that Athletes and hard training individuals suffer from gut health issues at a much higher rate than The average person which kind of sounds contradictory, right? If you're a hard training person you work out a lot you're probably very health conscious really you think it is It's this is what the study I think it's I can tell you what I think it is And it's and it's paradoxical because they have found I believe it's the pharmaceutical to bacteriode ratio in elite athletes Tends to be more favorably oriented towards metabolic efficiency towards harnessing energy from carbohydrates more efficiently and There there was even an outside magazine article I think it was last year about whether or not people would start getting fecal microbiota transplants from elite athletes Like get the same gut biota as an athlete But the the biome aside We know and we've known for a long time in exercise physiology that gut permeability increases when blood flow is directed away from the gut All the more so during high-intensity interval training all the more so during high-intensity interval training or exercise in general in the heat Right, and this is why even like back when I was racing Ironman years ago. I would always use colostrum I would load with colostrum for a couple weeks going into a race Just because of the research that also shows that that limits that amount of gut permeability onset to seal those junctions furthermore We're not going near ibuprofen or Advil or any NSAID during a race or after because when you combine that increased gut permeability With something that's mildly toxic to the liver and the kidneys is it's a recipe you essentially simulate Rhabdo with that time and then you combine that with probably a toxic shock different eating behaviors too Right when you're an athlete you tend to like get down on meals on a whole another level than somebody who's just a sedentary Sometimes you're eating when you still have blood flow directed to your extremities always I mean you're encouraged to eat right after a workout and if you're you've got some systemic inflammation going on Which is going to happen, especially after an intense workout and then on top of it. You're you're consuming a Quote-unquote easily digestible food like a shake Which is you know, you know, it's it's even more it's probably even more likely to pass through your your your gut than Solid foods so that combination over time. I feel like it's the perfect storm I agree with your with your theory on that but I didn't I do notice that if I because I'm sensitive to gut stuff my gut issues Something I'm always kind of dealing with when my training is through the roof Is when I need to be the most careful. So yeah, it makes perfect I think nearly every athlete should be on something that's going to alter the the opening of that that zonulin protein The activity that zonulin protein that makes the gut more permeable. So, you know, whether that is Colostrum or or lignite or or anything like that is going to help to keep that tight junction closed I think that just about any athlete should be in a really good enzyme complex, especially for any fat or protein rich meals and Finally, they should have a giant slice of your sourdough bread babe every night with some grass-fed butter Salt and honey on it and that would solve all the world's woes now. I'm assuming that that's real sourdough The gluten is all I guess out right what happens with it to the process somewhat out It basically pre digest the gluten so gluten isn't gone. It's just gone through The starter and it eats the gluten and digest it. So when you eat it You actually don't have to do all your stomach has to do all the hard work of breaking gluten down It's already partially broken. How do you how long the if you feel like diseases You're still gonna paint the back of the toilet seat if you have No, so how long does it take to make a real sourdough at home at least 24 hours? Okay, so it's a it's a process Yeah, but it's mostly just waiting. Okay. It's not that hard people. I think the hardest thing is keeping it alive Yeah, now it's now what we talked about before you came on the show when you had told us you'd be in the area You had suggested it would be a good idea to do a podcast on Parenthood and raising children and I think you too. I thought I said guns vaccines abortion and Abortion and the questionable gender of track-and-fill deathly Affiliations, yeah, no, no, no, no, we're talking about parenthood and I think you both are Two of the most interesting people on this particular topic. We've been to your house Justin spent the night there I didn't but I definitely You were both two of the most Involved parents that I've ever met with your children. You just you're involved in Almost every aspect of what's going on. You can call us helicopter. Yeah. No. I was just gonna say You guys don't feel that way do you really don't you don't feel like your helicopter? Oh my gosh. No, I was gonna say If anything anti-helicopter, yeah, I don't think no what I mean by involved is you're literally present and involved It's you know, your kids aren't just good You know, you're present you're involved with the whole process and definitely not helicopter I see your kids having a lot of freedom to fail and to succeed kind of you know on their own So I think you guys are great people to talk to plus you guys homeschool What I think is an interesting topic. I know right now homeschooling is Exploding. Yeah, it's the fastest The best way to do it right now. Yeah I wish I could hit the rewind button because I would be so cool And I was homeschooled in the traditional manner you buy curriculum, you know back when I was homeschooled It was the Saxon math curriculum or the Usborne books or any number of different You know a Becca was not a very popular curriculum and you'd order typically In many cases that the same books from the same organization So you had your your math your reading your writing your logic your grammar your social studies Whatever and you order that all from Usborne or from a Becca or from Saxon or for many of these folks who didn't send all the books To your house kind of like when you start a semester in college and you go to the bookstore I get your books and then you you know You go through lessons plan lesson plans with mom and sit around the kitchen table and you know, everybody You know meet at the kitchen table at 8 and we go through all the books and occasionally There's some kind of a group activity with other homeschoolers in the afternoon Very very traditional died-in-the-wool homeschooling scenario and that is not what we do with our kids really I want to I want to start there Actually, you know, I feel like we've gotten to know each other really well in the last one has been three almost four years There's been four years and four years four years Yeah, and you know, I consider you a good friend of ours And I'd say that the thing that I probably know the least amount is really your your childhood and like your Upbringing I feel like I've gotten pieces of it through through the years But I'd really like to like dive into that your relationship with your parents what it was like when you were a kid And that I think well that has such a strong influence on how you parent I think that's a great place to influence not only in the way you parent but also in the way you partner Jess and I have even been Digging into this a little bit in terms of our relationship and the attachment theory in terms of whether you were given a Lot of attention when you were young in terms of whether you were left to fend for yourself in terms of how Explain the theory to so I'm not very good at explaining attachment there I'm gonna totally bastardize it but essentially some people are born and Grow up with anxious attachment where they really look to other people for verification for Compliments for words of affirmation and for things that make them feel as though they're okay They don't have to be anxious about anything you know mom and dad are giving them verbal approval and saying good job You know and they and they grow up really digging that kind of approval and almost needing it and still needing it from a partner when When you know they're married or they're with a partner and then there's there's another one that's that's more of like It's almost the opposite of attachment. It's do you remember what it's called babe? It's or the opposite anxiety avoidance. Yeah, so avoidance would be I want to be left alone I was oh, you know, I was maybe left to be very independent and I love my independence and I want my independence I don't want a partner who's in my face all the time and I'm very self-sufficient and independent and That person would not necessarily be the person needs many words of affirmation And there's this whole idea of the five love languages, you know words of affirmation or quality time or gifts or certain things That really mean a lot to your partner when you express those to your partner and you know For example, I kind of skew a little bit towards anxiety attachment and jessa kind of skews a little bit towards avoidance attachment And so in our relationship one thing that I found myself doing for years was I'd worry if she was okay Right like when when I'm making coffee in the kitchen I look up and she's in the kitchen and I can't quite tell if she's smiling or if she looks like she got up And she's in a good mood. I'll be okay, babe. I'm okay. You sure I can't you sure you okay Damn it Well, we've realized is that because my love language is words of affirmation if jessa wakes up and and she says something like gosh, I'm still thinking about how great that steak was that you cook last night or You know that coffee smells amazing. You make such good coffee, you know or something like that Like I have I feel zero need to ask her if she's okay. Yeah, it's like that's all me projecting me on her So interesting it's really interesting and and so kind of a rabbit hole from what you were saying about how the way that you are Raised affects the way that you parents would also affects the way that you interact with your with your spouse to a certain extent Now, how were you raised? How do you think the way you were raised made you skew towards that that that type of attachment? You know, I was I was kind of noodling on this because I'm You know my my mom I really depended on her for approval I really look to her for you're doing a good job You know, you're you're you're good You're great and gosh darn it people like you and I think that I look to her a lot for compliments And so I still grew up looking to women in my life such as my wife for those same type of compliments Yet I married someone who's very like tomboyish more more the avoidance there Who's who's wouldn't wouldn't necessarily think of unless we had a conversation about it Oh like compliment this person because for her and we were talking about this it almost feels like you like unauthentic like Terrible, but I'm like I I just don't like compliments do not come to my mind at all Like I mean it's not that I like I don't think it is just I don't voicing it just feels weird to me Yeah, and plus the fact that Jess and I met and well we met in second grade Sunday school But we we really got to know each other well in college and we're very competitive with a triathlon She raised track and field so we've we've you know sand volleyball everything We've always been a very competitive couple and so part of it too is like when she compliments me It's it's almost like it it rubs against our our I night tendency to compete with one each other With one another and to try and try and one up each other unless she like beats you right and she's like you did a Good job I'm wired up to be an achiever If I take a personality profile, I'm a cheever perfectionist and jessa is more people pleaser type B and You know one of the ways I'll compete with her is if I see her out in the porch drinking a glass of wine Just like you know lounging at whatever 6 p.m. And I come up and it's like an hour before dinner Whatever I see her out there, you know, I I will literally say well I've got about an hour of work still and about 30 emails. I still got a finish So I'll be up from the office in about an hour. So I'll see you then I'm gonna go get some work done Just because we're still competitive with each other so you guys are actually the reverse of Katrina and I very very similar So I could totally relate to the feeling Authentic to just say compliments to say them so I actually and I love the five love languages I recommend that to anybody in a relationship I think it brought so much insight to Katrina and I and and how we navigate we've been together for 10 years So of course, we've learned a ton about each other and I I can never I can never compliment enough For her and so I'm always trying to practice things that feel authentic and real that that it provides that for her Something that I've done that's that's helped that is I just make a point I try and do this at least once a month where I get her flowers and like write a card And if I have if I sit down her language is receiving a gift actually gifts aren't affirmation It's the card that the flowers is the message. Yeah, the flowers is a bonus She likes them in the house and they're pretty the card is what means everything to her She and she would rather and this was hard for me when we first started dating I was the shower with gifts because that's my thing So I mean bought her all these nice clothes all the time because because the way that you thought was well, of course Of course, she's gonna love to get gifts. I love to get gifts. She's got a lot of it. Yeah Yeah, it's really interesting. Yeah, that's not the language your partner. No And I actually think this is like one of the biggest things where people miss in their relationship because and it and no one Is really guilty because you feel like you're trying I remember when we had that this first, you know paradigm-shouting moment in our relationship because she had felt like I Wasn't giving her that love and I remember that going literally last week I just dropped like $500 on new And I'm thinking myself like I you know, I stopped in my day I thought about her I went and bought her all this stuff and I brought it home for no reason no holiday Like how is that not showing love? But it took me a while to make that connection that I could do that all day long And she's still not feel loved because I'm constantly speaking my language and not hers And now Ben I think good one thing that comes to mind I realize I haven't even answered your question about my my childhood yet, so but one thing that comes to mind Regarding that whole idea of gifts as being a language of love is I also think that that can lead to a certain form of lazy parenting Meaning that you know in many cases we feel as though we're doing a good job as parents if we you know Take our kids to some expensive steakhouse and then you know the next day a trip to the zoo an arcade and a movie And we just trying to make every moment epic or every moment Extremely extremely valuable with cash with money when in fact, I think that Time and traditions trump that big time like like I can tell you like if you have Breakfast for dinner on Tuesday night where dad makes eggs and waffles every Tuesday night for you know eight years of their childhood They're gonna remember that more than any you know random trip to Vegas where you know He blew a thousand dollars on the whole family at dinner at a Japanese restaurant or if if they've got every single Christmas you know, they're they're doing the 24-day advent calendar and getting a little chocolate and You know and and doing a little bit of reading each morning You know for this 24 days building and building and building to Christmas every single year When they grow up and you ask them about Christmas, they're probably going to talk about that tradition and That that memorable habit that's a part of you know, there's the the family then they will that one year They got the huffy, you know the shiny huffy bike that they'd always wanted You know, I found out my kids just building things with them was everything like it, you know taking them to Like I knew my son was into tether ball And so we just like his gift for Christmas was all of us We're gonna put this together and like make it from scratch and everything and then you know They're bike ramp and all this just that vested time that everybody shares together It makes that thing more valuable to them. It has you know some kind of relevance And we all had an experience we share together. It doesn't if that time is Repeated and regularly scheduled. I think that's where you start to build families and legacies and even this concept That grandparents matter because they become part of passing on those stories. Totally Yeah, and and I think that having family family rituals and that's a huge part of our parenting Like our family dinners are the other the song we sing before Sunday dinner The the type of journaling we do in the morning the type of journaling we do in the evening as a family the you know the bedtime music the trips to the tennis courts the the Six different card games that we play nearly every night of the week like our our kids Find dependency and trust and safety in that but furthermore We're not raising our children raising our grandchildren I was our children raising our grandchildren the type of traditions that we instill in our children now Those are the things that go on and become a special dependable part of family No matter where you know if I get up rude and I got to move to a new state and get a new job or whatever We can still play our Sunday night tennis. Did you both get that growing up? I got a lot of that growing up. She did I've learned everything about the value of tradition from my wife because my family was Barry my family was you know Christmas morning. What do you guys want to do for dinner tonight? Should we get some subway sandwiches or you know find a turkey that we forgot to pull out the freezer? No, or whatever because of that were you was that just normal to you and it wasn't a big deal Or did you ever go through a phase where you had animosity towards your parents because of maybe how you were raised? pleasantly Agnostic like I just I didn't even know right how you're normal until I met Jessa and I thought it was super yeah Most people she's like oh, we've got our annual trip to the coast. We do it this time every single year I'm an annual trip when you have to do the same place This is the color of the plates that we use on Christmas and these are this what the name tags look like for Thanksgiving and this is the exact Easter egg hunt that we do every East and for me now you push back against that I didn't push back against it But it was just super weird for me like I never and and oh my goodness like I think it's So lucky, you know marrying a girl who who actually knew about the importance of traditions because our kids are that they're so stable at Home because they there's so much they can depend on every day of the week, you know predictable Environments remove a lot of fear and anxiety So I want to hear from Justin because when you have when you have the difference like this And I know Katrina and I have this there's there's always some sort of resistance somewhere What has been the greatest challenge for you with him because of the way? He was raised that you guys have had to work through together You know it wasn't like the crit like doing the same thing at Christmas or you know Easter or whatever or having those traditions around Certain holidays it was honestly more of the tradition in the daily routines Because like I grew up in a family my dad. He was a farmer. He raised cattle. He came home five o'clock every night We had dinner at six o'clock everybody came together And then we enjoyed maybe a half-hour TV show with popcorn, you know there is always tradition built in to the day and So for very very long and she married me where I'm like I'm on a plane to Abu Dhabi to race a triathlon Back working, you know, 10 to noon three to five eight to eleven p.m. At a gym and then you know coming home trying to build an online business till 2 a.m It is it all over the map because I grew up with a dad Who literally would hold the same job for like a year and then go start a new company and then sell that and like buy a Franchise and then you know go and buy some old ambulances and start to do you know ambulancing It like my dad was all over the map. So she grew up in a very dependable Traditional consistent farmer type of environment whereas I grew up with with you know a dad Who's just all over the the map in terms of entrepreneurship So that that was it that was a different because I could I could see how the annual traditions It's like we're that's understandable. Yeah, Ben can be like yeah, okay fine Well, we'll do this one day today had a bit like every day. It's like this we do in the morning This is what we do at night. Yeah, I could see how that would be, you know It took me a long time and now like I Can't like the day does not feel right unless we have our family dinner with our card game with me playing ukulele or guitar to the boys afterwards with our you know, we do self-examination and In purpose at the end of the day. So at the end of the day we say in our journals What good have I done today and what could I have done better today? So we learned from both our successes and our failures And what is one way that I lived out my life's purpose because we I've taught my children from a very early age to have a strong Purpose statement, you know to have their icky guide have their their plan Davida the thing that rips them out of bed in the morning That gives them a lens through which they see a lot of the boxes that they might be checking during the day You know in the in the end ultimately How is this helping you to fulfill your purpose and then in the morning same thing? We you know, we right now we meet as a family out in the sun on the deck We've got a five-minute meditation app that we go through called a bide that walks us through like a little Verse from scripture and a prayer then we all write down one thing We're grateful for and one person we can pray for or help that day and all these little things They rubbed me the wrong way at first. I just to me It felt like being just like an old buddy duddy TV show family from the you know 50s or early leave it to be ever and now Like it it is the most magical part of the day these little They ever request any specific songs from you now like some AC DC or anything They know a little bit of the place, but they're they're really into epic movie soundtracks, which I can't play I took them into the into a recording studio for our Christmas gift from mom and they really like the greatest showman Which has a lot of really? We recorded a whole album from mom recording studio and then they also really like Like super heart felt like praise and worship songs because they're very they're very into like praise and worship So they usually like that kind of stuff or sometimes like just like an old-school him like yeah, well So so I'm listening to all this and by the way, it sounds it sounds amazing And you know speaking to to these these rituals or traditions. This is how cultures are created and you know one thing about Humans is when you look at things that last for thousands and thousands of years. That's because we've found Significant value and otherwise it wouldn't last right. This is part of evolution You know peace out people who are into science who understand evolution from a biological Sense you also need to understand evolution from a cultural and practical sense and behaviors and practices and cultures We often take them for granted because they've been around for thousands of years and we tend to look at them Like well, that's stupid. Why do we have to do it that way? Everybody's been doing it so long That's a it may be we even view it as oppressive or whatever, but the reality is it exists because humans have found it Tremendously valuable and oftentimes in ways that you don't even fully understand because it's been around for so long But as I'm listening to this and I think again what you guys are doing is extremely valuable I also know that you have two 12 year old boys. They're about to become teenagers. Yeah, and like all kids I'm sure they give some pushback sometimes. I mean, I don't think there's any perfect person out there let alone perfect kid What do you do when your kid says I don't want to do this Or what is it that they give? Like how do you handle that? well First of all, and I think maybe it was when we recorded in Tahoe We talked a little bit about on one of the previous podcasts that we recorded together About this idea of love and logic style parenting Yeah, educating your children on the consequences of their decision then as much as possible Allowing them to make the decision am I gonna eat gluten am I going to you know look at pornography? Am I going to you know smoke a cigarette? You know any of these things you teach your children about the impact on the brain the impact on the body the potential societal implications and then you let them make the decision and deal with the consequences, right? Maybe you know poor performance at school the next day because they punished, you know three cupcakes at their friend's birthday party I'd rather them learn that way than me say no cupcakes and then feel like I actually took a whole course It's there's they have a free course right now online love and logic and the one of the things that they say on there That's so powerful. So they give the example. Here's an easy example You're going out. You're going out somewhere. It's cold and you're you tell your kid Hey, make sure you grab your jacket. I don't want to wear a jacket, right? So the the old school way would be like get your jacket put it on you're gonna the love and logic way would be like Okay, don't worry. Then when you go out and they're freezing and there's oh my god, it's cold You empathize with them like I am right. Yeah, that really sucks or whatever And they learn from that and then the way that they sell it Which I think is brilliant is if they learn those lessons now then they don't learn They don't have to learn in the hard way later on when it's like getting drunk driving or you know things that have real serious Consequences, so yeah, I and you take the course. I really think it's valuable It is and and there are there are two other considerations here with this style of parenting A it only works if you're a really good example, right? You you can't you can't you can't tell your kids Oh, you can use the phone and the television and the video game platform as much as you'd like You know might hurt your eyes a little bit. You might not sleep that well tonight But if you say that and then every night after work, you're plopped in front of Netflix for two hours Then that's what your kids are gonna have is a good like in the Greenfield house if there's downtime 90% of the time I'm holding a musical instrument or have a book in my face, right? I am not on my phone I'm not playing a video game. I'm not parked in front of a screen So when my kids have downtime like their go-to thought pattern is not where's my eye touch or I'm gonna go Go hunt down some cars and YouTube on the MacBook then the other thing and this is new for me is that I Think that sometimes that style of parenting can lead almost too much to you Wanting your kids to like you, you know Or as Jordan Peterson would say don't do things that would make your kids dislike you or don't do things I would make your kids hate you sometimes I think we can take that in In too far the opposite direction I don't want my child to ever feel as though they were deprived or as they as though I told them They had to do something because we use this whole love and logic don't ever make your kids angry type of approach But you know for example, you know, I have decided that Even though for the longest time I've been writing out little workouts for River and Terran to do You know, it's so you guys you got to do 60 pound pet sandbag one time around the obstacle course and and you know There's three times this week or your workout today is five goblet squats five push-ups You know dead hang for max time and you're gonna do five rounds of that. Um, I was not being a good father I was not being a good leader. I was not being a good king in terms of Basically me almost parenting through check boxes and and giving my kids little assignments that they could or could not do but great if you've done it versus me literally bringing them out with me and Sacrificing, you know, my podcast time or audiobook time or my favorite Spotify Artist time to just go inside my own head for a workout instead take them with me and have them suffer in a way that they kind of sort of don't want to suffer you can tell along with me because Let's face it. I think a 5 a.m. Paper root like I had when I was a kid Like if my parents would have told me that all you could or could not do that's up to you But because they said you need a job and we have a paper job. So go work make money I think that's character building and so I think that you sometimes have to get to a point where you are telling You're pretty your foot down. You're saying, yo, this is gonna be good for you. Let's go out to the garage We're gonna sweat for a half hour. It's not it's not do you want to come with me? It's we're going out. Well, and also it's just coming alongside your kid and doing something with them rather that Yeah, that versus telling them because it's not You're you're sacrificing your time, which is a display of love towards that person and so Really, I think in all of this Love has to be seen in everything that you do for your child because they won't have trust for you If you aren't displaying that to them regularly And that's that's in putting them to bed and not just saying good night. See you in the morning It's putting them to bed You know making sure they have everything they need and maybe they need that prayer or that song that or that ritual It's literally just like taking Taking your time and giving to them I 100% agree. So what do you do when you're like, do you have an example of time when your when your boys was like I don't want to do that journaling today. We're not going to do it or I don't care about that right now or whatever I don't feel like I've ever And this sounds crazy to poly people. I we don't receive a lot of pushback from our boys in that way I haven't seen that. No, we don't I mean they're they're not they're not perfect like like, you know, because they are They're unschooling they each have their own little MacBook and sometimes they'll have you know, like they they take one course called Mathnasium where they have an online math tutor and sometimes they've got little homework assignments and You know, I was finding with increasing frequency. I walk into them and you could tell they were switching browser where those really And where where my mind goes is I can tell them Hey, you're you're hiding something from dad and taking your computer away from a week. You're grounded All right, but what I said to both of them in two separate conversations because sometimes you want to be careful not to embarrass One kid in front of the other or to make one feel like, you know, they're wrong the other's right So I I took them aside and I said look I'm not stupid I can tell when I walk into the room when you're on your computer and you're quickly switching browser windows That you're doing something that you feel might not be the best use of your time or that I might disapprove of I told them look, I don't care. It's your time. It's your life It's up to you whether whether or not you want to waste your life or squander your education or spend time on some silly cartoon website versus Applying yourself and doing what it is that's going to make you a better person in the moment But my one request is that you not hide it from me You don't have to be embarrassed if if you have a certain website you're visiting that you want to visit Go for it. Do it. Just don't feel like you have to hide it from me because you're not going to get in trouble All you're doing is is ruining your own life and that's up to you. Just please don't hide it from me All right, so so those are the type of conversations that cartoon network is ruining my life So here's the other thing too that sometimes I worry about Now my my son is about to turn 15 my daughter's 10 So, you know kind of close in age to your boys And obviously I'm a I'm a fitness and health person, right and I've seen this before I've seen this before where I had a a family member whose dad was an herbalist and super into Health and whatnot and the in the kids Had to eat everything was healthy They didn't get all the processed foods that everybody got and every you know when it was their birthday They didn't get the normal cake They got the you know the the super crunchy, you know, whatever cake with no sugar And what ended up happening to both of them is the second they got out of the house They went super far Tracking up You know they went super far in the opposite direction and so sometimes I get or or I've also seen where parents are super into fitness to where the kid Maybe feels like it's a bit tyrannical And so they they have this bad relationship with fitness and then when they get out of the house and they're on their own I never want to work out type of deal What do you do to ensure that either that doesn't happen or if it does happen that they end up coming back to You know the right thing Well, I don't know. Here's my feelings on that is My own personal journey myself Is my parents didn't force fitness or food or anything on me really And I was allowed to come to that at my own time. Now. I think my parents instilled in me Like an understanding of this is good for you. This is not good for you. You should maybe be active and not sedentary You know, they instilled those Virtues in me, but they didn't force them upon me. And so I I call it we're not raising dogs. We're raising spiritual beings You know, you're not raising your kids to do this and obey and this and that you're raising them to make To have a spirit and be able to make a decision and and have virtue and so to me I really feel that If you are teaching your kid anything if it's not done in the heart of London And they don't understand that you love them and that's why you're teaching this to them Is because you care about them then it's gonna have it's gonna Kind of hit tin and just bounce off I think I think the the independence that comes with adolescence Which we're of course increasingly going to experience as as our kids, you know, grow into teenagerhood dictates that a child will want to do the opposite of what their parent is doing to assert their own independence That's just the way that things are and so I fully expect and I'm fully prepared for river and terror To be the anti-gym rat or the person who prides himself upon maybe having a little bit of pooch and being a member of the chess club And playing a lot of piano just because dad is so unfitnessed. I want to like that's not cool But not not that i'm saying that adolescence I I think sometimes it's used as a crutch for or an excuse to go into full rebellion but I think some amount of Of asserting one's independence and sometimes asserting one's independence by trying to do the opposite of what their parent may have done is understandable but for me personally like I think that You always kind of experienced that prodigal son-esque moment Where where you where you come back and you realize the value like my dad used to give me books that I absolutely did not want to read I mean like Christian apologetics and you know sermons by c.s. Lewis just all this stuff I was just like why do I want to read this just like, you know You know the way I think about I was a teenager's Jesus freak drivel and you know Just this this random religious philosophy like I want to be reading about You know may I got I loved fantasy fiction and I love space fiction I got that's the kind of stuff I wanted to read But now coming full circle like when I've got downtime and I feel like I really want to feed my spirit and feed my soul and Challenge myself intellectually. I mean, that's what I'm reading. I'm reading of john piper and c.s. Lewis and dug Wilson and all these these deep logical philosophical books on religious On on religion or on apologetics and all of a sudden I'm like, oh geez i'm doing exactly what my dad Took me took me 30 years to see the value in that but you know, all of a sudden I'm like, oh, I'm actually I'm growing my spiritual muscles now. I understand what dad was about Yeah, but I came to that place So I think you show your kids what's important and then a certain point you just You know, you trust god that that they're going to if you if you've exposed them to the right type of things Eventually make the right decisions even though they'll probably go in through that independence Gotta be the hardest thing to do as a parent That's gotta be the hardest thing because you You know what they're gonna do you see the pitfalls and just gotta let them do it That's really really hard. Yeah, but you know, what's really cool is I've seen my parents Go through that and see their daughter take really hard nosedives and do really stupid crap. How did you rebel? Jesser rebel I wasn't really I like to teeter on the edge, but I never fully won. She rebelled by marrying me. Yeah, I basically did Did any of your guys now did any of your guys have siblings that rebelled or went the complete opposite like Did you guys? Yeah, I think I would imagine everybody's got a little bit of a black sheep in every family Absolutely, but but what I what I was saying is I'm like, I got to witness my parents walk through that and go through the fire of that I lived through that with them and so to see that they're how they Reacted to that and how they walked through that. It was just honestly With a lot of faith and a lot of prayer and that's all you can do at that point because they are their own person And at some point you do have to let them You got to let them go and just You know, yeah, well you got to let them go rest and promises basically Here's what I think and here's what I think that idea like whatever they say 99% of the time You're gonna spend with your child is done with by the time they're 18 So you better just make every minute count and you know live live every moment with your kid As if you were going to be in your death bed that night and everything everything has to be and You know, I think that That's a it's based on a flawed theory If you have built up traditions if you have built up rituals if you have built up an environment where Parents are honored and grandparents are honored and and children are honored Then you create a scenario where you know when your kids are 18 They want to keep coming back for more when they've when they've flown the nest they've started their own family They still want to keep coming back to The original family or including their parents and their extended family and their rituals and routines and traditions because the entire family Is built upon these deep rooted traditions And so, you know, I think that even though a lot of kids are gonna have times when they go their own way Our job as parents is to create this safe nest full of traditions and habits and rituals and routines and dependency And trust that just makes them want to keep coming back for more as they age and then take you when you're old As a parent into their home because I think that's that's another big issue with parenting With the value of parents and with the honor of being a father and a mother right now in culture is a We hide away old people And we hide hide away old people because we don't want to care for them We don't want to give them the time we don't want to give the attention And then and I mean this is probably This probably delves into the politics that I know you guys love to talk about so much We kill a whole bunch of little people Like yeah, I want 40 million of them right and so when we say, okay, we care about babies But you know, there's there's several tens of millions that we're they were willing to kill for conveniences sake each year And then we care about parents But when they get old and it's inconvenient you got like change their diaper and they stink a little bit We're gonna hide them away Right, so I think on both ends of the spectrum There are some issues that cause us to a certain extent to devalue parents and devalue children Well, there's one I'll I'll I'll move away from the the third rail there a little bit But I'll move to one that's a little bit much less of a third rail But sometimes is also I think is a big one is that I think fatherhood has been totally Devalued uh in in in modern societies. We just had this conversation You look you watch tv shows and how they display the father Modern family, right? He's an idiot. He's a bumbling whatever. He doesn't really do much. He has no value He's like the jester. He's he's a clown and And so so here's what I think the problem is and we run into a lot of this like in the health space anti-aging Longevity peter pan syndrome, right? I'm I'm gonna be a boy and have fun and go to You know like I like for me I'm gonna go go to spartan races and and triathlons and and get the You know stem cell injections in my dick and do all this like cowboy peter pan I'm gonna be a boy forever type of shit when in fact Living like that having all the biohacking toys having the workouts You know being being the buddy because you really want your kids to like you and the clown and the jester Not that there can't be some light playful aspect to being a father But I think too many dads are not freaking like kings true leaders Fathers strong rocks that the family can depend upon And you know another part of that too is is just you know welfare parenting, right? So many single-parent households with mothers government steps in and takes the role of father So so dad's a lot of times they don't even need to be a dad, right because somebody else Yeah, well in a lot of boys run in a room. Yeah, and a lot and a lot of the old You know cultures I talked earlier about how things exist for thousands of years oftentimes because we find lots of value When you go to a lot of these old cultures It's a It's almost like a way to brag when you're a father with a lot of kids Like when men talk to each other say how many kids you have I have three kids Well, I have four like wow, you know, that's awesome. Whatever It's the opposite in our culture if you are you know You tell a guy a buddy of yours that you have three kids and they'll they'll respond was like, oh god That sucks Yeah, well, well, I'm gonna know I got my my corvette and you know I get to bang hot chicks all the time and that sucks that you have to you know Do that kind of stuff and they laugh about it whatever it's crazy that we don't Prize that anymore and by the way, you can disagree all you want the statistics are clear They're crystal clear children raised without fathers are many many times more likely to end up in all the terrible situations Everything from prison to drug abuse to suicide. We are in a it's like a pandemic of fatherless societies It it's really really sad And this this comes because you were asking about my childhood My father was somewhat absent Meaning he he was not a very high quality time You know lots of hugs type of dad. He you know, he was off running businesses starting businesses very he's naturally quiet Naturally introspective naturally good at being an introvert and you know Kind of off doing his own thing like I tend to be pulled towards his father was the same way Right always locked away in the office always working or using work as an escape So coming down to me and this idea of you're not raising your children You're raising your grandchildren I have come to the realization a very strong way over the past year or so that If I don't break that cycle if I continue to you know parent through checkboxes Whatever, you know river and tearing here's your work. I was this is that dad's headed out to la for eight days I'll be back and check in on you guys and make sure everything's you know going well and If I am if I am not a fully present father if I am not a leader if I'm not the king of my household then It's It's going to show my children the example of the father That a greenfield father is and then they go forth and do Probably something very similar to what I did Mary a really strong woman, you know, because Jess is an amazingly strong woman. She's super, you know independent Self-sufficient even a little bit of that avoidance syndrome versus the attachment syndrome that I have so she can operate on her own Just fine And it's very easy for me to let her wear the pants in the family to let her be the leader and so So I can be a little boy, you know off, you know pulling on the speedo to go to swim in hawaii in a triathlon Well, she's at home holding down the fort And you know the question I've increasingly been asking myself is is that what a greenfield father should be known for? Should a greenfield father be known for being the playful little boy off having great adventures married to a really strong woman So the kids are taking care of at home or should a greenfield father Be a leader be a king be someone who really takes their children under their wings and trains them and spends quality time with them And sometimes has them suffer along with him and really really teaches them how to be a man And I would say that I think the the latter is far more valuable than your kids Liking you because you're just like the clown around the house. That's a it's a very powerful realization Now have you found moments recently where you you were about to take off and go to something and then you stopped yourself and you go Cancelled your flight or cancelled your trip and said i'm staying home I mean, have you had moments like that in this last year where because you're right when you have something so deep that it's generations Your father your grandfather that that shit's so deeply rooted that that's always going to be default for you It's hard to be aware of and I I'm I had the same similar type of thing is to go bury myself into work And so I have to always kind of check back in like is this me kind of Running away without even realizing i'm running away and you know, can I pass on this? Do you I didn't have to cancel a thing because because god bless coveted it all for What I have done one big change I have made is um And this has been really remarkable in the way it's just transformed my whole week my approach to work my approach to productivity My approach to procrastination my approach to prioritization is Sundays are full on Family day me no calls. No no work. No. Oh, you know, we missed a call on monday Let's just shove this one into sunday. You got time this weekend. I'll ping you this week And I would find myself sometimes on sunday, you know three or four phone calls playing some catch-up work You know just getting things done. Sure now knowing that sunday is coming. That's a full on family day It it really gives me hyper focus every other day of the week And then when sundays roll around not that i'm not spending quality time with my kids every day But that's been transformative to have that one day where it is nothing but family and faith focused I love I love that now you've mentioned spirituality and faith a few times and I've been on my own and I've been public about my own recent spiritual journey I used to be very atheist and then I became agnostic and more recently now. I've been pulled To the the christian religion quite a bit and I've learned quite a bit of it And there was a a moment that I Justin adam myself and dug were invited to Listen to bishops baron and arthur brooks speak And it was one of the most uh, you know arthur brooks is a very I don't know if you know who arthur brooks Very very powerful effectiveness actually one of the most genuine nice people I've ever met my entire He's one of those people you meet every once in a while that you Immediately feel their positive their energy and you want to give them a hug just a great guy and he said something so powerful that literally Justin adam and myself and dug looked at it looked at each other and looked away quickly because all of us were Emotional we're all in the verge of tears. I love that. He said something very powerful and he said about the power of of Going to church with your children as a father and he said something I'll never forget. He said Here you are if you're a good father. I'm paraphrasing. He says it much better But here you are a good father your children see you as The most powerful person uh in the world if you do a good job and in your good parent your children Look at you as the ultimate role model and it's not a totally not You know unusual for a kid especially young kid to think that their dad You're the strongest person ever is the strongest most powerful most whatever Which is not a bad thing. You're the protector of the family You know, so they think and I remember thinking that about my dad And he says to go to church to see the most powerful man in your life bend a knee and uh and and in praise and give great and give uh, you know To someone else basically saying I am this one thing's servant or this god's servant He said what a powerful message all of us sat there like yeah, what a very What a powerful thing to show your child, you know, the the perfect the the perfect example of a father and a son is god and jesus and a perfect example of of something that fathers can aspire to is to be as great a father as god and so when When You are a good father or you're a powerful father. You're a leader in your home You're absolutely right and and you show your kids that you still get down on bended knee that there's still something that you fear There's still something you honor. There's still something you have a great deal of reverence around And it is this you know this creator this greater power this absolute truth I think that that also shows kids that there's even a there's even a greater rock There's even a greater foundation and honestly, I just think the whole idea that there is an absolute truth that there is absolute morality You know in my opinion that that that's part of the strong fabric that knits cultures together And and that well your foundation is that keeps morality from unraveling not shakeable You have to you have to have that the very idea of uh of this country when it started You know, there was a period of time when anybody could come here It doesn't matter who you were where you came from you could come you were welcome and you think to yourself How did that work? You got all these different people and I've heard people say oh, they're all europeans They're all the same with stupidest thing I've ever heard of my life because They've been at two world wars with each other. They were very different Germans, Italians, irish, you know, they were all very very very different They all came here. How did they all get along? They all had a underlying Appreciation respect and belief in liberty and freedom So this is how they all got along so that when you say this absolute morality The only way different people can ever work together and still be very different is if they have one They have this common thread of something and that's what this absolute morality. This is why when morality is subjective and not objective you you run into Uh a lot of different problems, but the question I want to ask you've been you're you you're very spiritual You've mentioned, uh, you know, jesus and god. So obviously very strong christian But you're also very analytical objective scientific minded individual so aside from the specifics that you find in Christianity and in your religion from an objective scientific standpoint What are the values of having a spiritual practice or a belief system are their values because These days it seems like that There's constantly people are saying there's no value in that. It's silly. It's It's make-believe. Why do we even do it? Obviously it's existed in every culture Yeah, every culture forever has had some kind of a strong belief system So there's obviously value but What from that standpoint what are the val like why is that important to have right? Well, well, there's two things to consider here the first is when When you're talking about science and reducing everything to Scientism if you want to call everything must be proven there There must be a reason for everything if you trace everything back to its to its ultimate origin Everything must be explainable And it's very difficult to be a respected authority in a field of something like fitness or nutrition, you know as kind of like Shallow sciences as those fields might be considered to be And to make to make statements that you want to be respected for When at the same time you have admitted that there comes a certain point Or when you've traced something back from tissue to cell to Adam to Molecule the quark to proton to electron and you know stripped everything down to its tiniest tiniest component You know the tiniest little thread of existence you will get to the point where you can either say Well, you know, we're going to keep on digging because we're going to figure out what came before this and what came before this And what came before this we can eventually explain away everything via science Or you get to a certain point where you throw up your hands and you say I don't know. It's it's magic Something like some higher power that I don't understand made this and I'm just going to have the faith that that happened and And resist the Even the mild arrogance that I might be able to explain away everything in the universe And that's tricky to be involved in a field that depends upon science at the same time Essentially say the equivalent of yeah, I believe in unicorns and berries and fairy tales and magic But I'd rather live in a world Of magic where there's deep hope that there's a story written for your life That there's a big guy upstairs watching out for a buddy that that this entire universe around us and all the wonder of it from you know, uh from from, you know, smoked clams and and cannabis to you know to sourdough bread and a good red wine to You know psilocybin and and dumbbells and everything like these are all wonderful Wonderful works of creation that we can simply enjoy and not necessarily feel that there's an extreme need to have to explain Away via science and so that's that's one part part of really the difficulty is getting to the point where you just say Yeah, I believe in faith. I believe in magic. So You know so You know judge me for it and then the other part of it when it comes to The value of this You know, we know that there's a lot of data out there about how people who who are church goers tend to have reduced All cause risk and mortality. You know, maybe that's the community Maybe it's the tiny thimble full glass of hermetic inducing red wine every sudden Who knows but we know that for a fact we know that gratitude lowers blood pressure Improves sleep increases empathy increases self-control. We know that this self-examination practice Increases the the amount of actual productivity and impact that you make with your life We know that having a purpose statement actually is associated with higher profile of mood state scores and greater happiness When you go down the list of all these spiritual disciplines and you read wonderful books by guys like richard foster and David wallace on all the spiritual disciplines gratitude service community worship solitude purpose in life silence abstinence, you know, that's a big absence everything You wind up with this this list of things that ultimately have deep physical and physiological and psychological Which these people came from faith, right? It's not because they had a scientific And all of them are even fasting right fasting did not originate from science. It originated from religion and It was a spiritual it was for spiritual health not for physical health, right? That's what it was for You know, it's fun when so for me what kind of got me, you know to move in this direction It was a few different things, but well one of them were some of the ideas that seem to work so well are not obvious Uh, for example the idea that and this comes from uh religion The idea that all people have are born with inalienable rights, which is you know, it's in our our founding What a weird radical crazy idea totally not obvious for most of human histories or kings and queens and peasants and slaves and Nobody if they know who would come up with such an insane thing From a reasonable logical standpoint, you can look around at people and observe and obviously that's not true We're all so different. We're all some people are born this way So where did that come from and it came from? Religion so that that was one of the things that helped me move in that direction That that that is that is the gospel, right? Like God sent his son to die so that the burden and all the shame and all the sin And and all the shit that that we are born with and that we create and that we live with every single day Could be taken upon the back of the extreme suffering and pain literally a god from the sky came down to take on And it says very clearly in the bible, which I consider to be A source of absolute truth that that was not just done for like the jews not just done for the gentiles Not just done for the asians not just done for the south americans every single person, right? The the the the grocer the slave the free person you name it Everybody is on equal ground when it comes to all of us And it's entirely not obvious and reasonable to think that anybody would come up with that Especially anybody with any kind of power. Why would you give away? Right, so so it's very interesting to me the ultimate act of humility. Yeah now I understand that it is improved that there's a a a supernatural god. I get that but boy the the Pragmatic, you know, how pragmatic it is how effective it is at helping create, you know societies that we value Boy, is that crazy the other part is this is that You know Let's talk about science for a second quantum physics is magic. Yeah, let's talk about that. Yeah It kind of is the observer effects. It's it's unexplainable. Yeah, it's kind of magical But let's talk about science for a second science is uh, I can I can easily make the argument that it's one of the most Valuable powerful the scientific method has got to be one of the most powerful tools that we've ever Come up with but here's the problem with science. You mentioned scientist Scientism It it has no morality. It's not supposed to science doesn't work If you apply a morality to it's supposed to be purely objective But if you don't have people who have an idea of morality within themselves Here's what science turns into it turns into not should I but can I Is this possible like okay, uh, let's let's let's hybrid humans with gorillas to see how strong they can get Let's create let's have children out of the womb because that's convenient. Let's uh, you know what all these human monkey embryos Yeah, oh, you know eugenics eugenics is an idea. It's such a terrible idea Right that we need to get rid of the genetically bad people to have a pure perfect race from a scientific standpoint and objective For the collective it makes perfect once once science becomes absolute truth You you are on a very slippery slope towards an absence of morality Because there there is no consideration of whether something is right or wrong Just whether something is true or false and what's really interesting is a is a book that I recently read It was when we were in, uh, uh Actually when the boys and I were in dubai, I think I was reading this book on the plane And I I sent you this book just and i'm forgetting it's about how every single culture Has this this one great god in the sky who who actually Is this source of truth and is this this source of right and wrong many many cultures I have no idea who jesus was a gospel sacrifice any of that stuff But they know like there's this one god who has created an Like a deep truth and morality that goes beyond and it's going to be nuts that I can't remember I can't remember what the name of the book is but essentially what it comes down to Is there is head knowing and there is heart knowing head knowing is science Or like I know whether something is true or false. I can use reasoning. I can use logic I can explain away the observer effect by maybe talking about how like particles would interact with the photon And there's got to be a way to explain this and then heart knowing is basically just I just know Because I know I know that I should not walk up On the street to the person holding a wonderful aromatic loaf of sourdough bread Hold a gun to their head pull the trigger and walk away with their bread because I wanted it And that felt right to me right like everybody knows in their heart like that's the heart knowing you know Even you may not be able to explain But you know deep down side because you could try to explain ways you you could say oh you did because that Makes you happy and that's and in and you know morality comes from what makes you happy But did it make the other person happy here's an interesting thought experiment along those lines It's like you asked somebody if you could go back in time and kill hitler when he was a baby Would you do it? And some people might say well, yeah, I would save lots of people really think about it He's not hitler yet, right? He's a baby. He hasn't done anything yet. So your heart knows That would actually be wrong even though theoretically I could prevent all this other You know stuff from happening. It's wisdom. It's also very unrealistic Never actually So fitness is my expertise So I like to take things to fitness because that's where I understand the most I would say and there's a lot of Wisdom in fitness and I'll explain often so we do episodes called Quas right where people ask us questions and we answer those questions And there's a question that pops up all the time which is if scientists invented a pill that made you fit lean and healthy Regardless of what you ate and what you did Would that be a good thing now? For somebody who's been You know who's took this seriously understood this study this worked with people For well over two decades I have developed a level of wisdom with fitness that is beyond the you know You get fit you build muscle you burn body fat. And so when I hear that I understand that yeah, you'll get people who are lean You know more muscle mobile and that kind of stuff But they're not going to get the true value that you get the value is the The value is in the discipline and the abstinence and the journey journey not the destination It's always the journey And so that's something that's totally different from the the reason and the logic because the science would say the pill would solve everybody's problem But here's here's another example You have people who seem to have everything that you think that you would want from a logical standpoint money power sex Drugs fame and their suicide rate is through the roof. What does that tell you? I would take that pill daily if it was on top of a mountain and a decline mop the mountain every morning to get the Pill I'll take it Exactly. So I want to I want to take a left turn here or whatever turn here and and ask you a little bit about Homeschooling I know you guys are big Homeschooling let's talk about jesse's shirt. Did you watch tiger king? I had to point that out. I've only seen a couple Free joexotic I'm glad you don't know it's a total waste of your time. So so You mentioned unschooling which is a form of homeschool I had friends who were big in the homeschooling world and when I started training them there That's how I met them and I was very skeptical when they would tell me about what they did They were unschoolers and I thought oh boy. I hope their kid doesn't turn out whatever. Anyway, he turned out to be One of the best young men. I've ever met I thought he would be lazy and he'd oh, he just gonna play video games all day now This kid is entrepreneur start his own podcast. He's become a personal trainer He's a go-getter very very balanced Well-adjusted young man snow friends. He's depressed. Yeah, none of that stuff, right? Yeah, right now now there's a lot of confusion and a lot of myth around or just Incorrect knowledge or information around homeschooling and in along those lines homeschooling has exploded Not just recently because of covet but over the last 10 years It's exploded a lot first off. Why do you think that is? Why do you think more and more parents and it's growing exponentially? This is real now in fact that The public school system is actually quite worried about the fact that more and more people are homeschooling Why do you think it's exploded so much and then I do want to get into Unschooling of what that means I actually I've I pose this question to one of my girlfriends whose kids are in public school and I during all of this stuff and in Recent laws that have been passed in washington And I said to her I was like and I said don't take this as offensive But I was like, how do you feel dropping your kid off at the state every day? And allowing them to pour themselves into your child rather than you pouring yourself into your child Like that's a really honest question and I wasn't trying to be offensive or rude but and and say that you're doing it wrong I just really want to pour my values and my my Yeah, my values into my child rather than allowing the state to pour their values into the it's all of our children. I think that um That is it It's good that a parent would want to be with their kids more and want more quality time It's not about being with your kids more it's about or want to your value system Want to be able to instill more of of their family's values into their children But I think that the human psychology of someone else being able to educate a child and you could drop them off and go to Work and fulfill your nasal hierarchy. Well, somebody else does the work actually would make homeschooling a less popular notion and so I think the reason that homeschooling has become more popular Is multifactorial but a big one is technology. Yeah Like the ease of being able to find information find teachers find tutors Have that be scalable and affordable has made it so that you can homeschool anyone anywhere in the world and You can you can I mean compared to even what you could do 20 years ago Have an amazing amazing education for your child And then I think that when you pair that with a little bit of of social unrest, you know, increasing school violence increasing bullying increasing amounts of depression and loneliness and suicidal tendencies among children who are simply in An effed up social environments in in many cases in in, you know, public school or even some cases of private school type of situation dictates that I think a lot of parents are aware that a school might not be the best place a traditional school might not be the best place for their Kids to be during the day and as that awareness grows What I've seen are I've seen a growth of homeschooling But I've seen this real shift towards the notion of creative free play aka unschooling Aka find out what your kids passions and interests are find out what makes them Truly excited what they really want to study what they're truly interested in Then surround them with as many arts and crafts and tutors and computer programs and games and activities and museum tickets and everything That they would need to be able to pursue that passion and then step back and just lightly guide them You know make sure they've got a you've got somebody to drive them to the place They want to be driven to and they've got some cooking class or make sure that they know how to Log into the computer for some class they want to take online So lightly guide them and and then just surround them and then the other important part of unschooling And this is very similar to that love and logic approach right like use love and logic but also discipline So unschool but also realize there are certain skills that your child is going to highly benefit from having experienced in life That they might not know about yet when they're six or eight or ten years old You know neval ravacan great modern-day thinker and philosopher I you know, I love a lot of the work that he does He says there's essentially five key tools that a child needs to be able to excel in no matter what career that they go into And those are reading Writing right so so being able to consume information at an efficient pace Writing being able to express thought clearly on written in written form on paper or via keyboard Arithmetic being able to just do basic figuring whether it's geometry or building or woodworking or anything that involves basic math skills And then finally Logic or computer programming right which are technically synonymous right like logic slash computer programming and then rhetoric slash persuasion If you can weave in sales reading writing math Logic slash persuasion and or logic slash computer programming and rhetoric slash persuasion Then your child is really going to be set for life And so we we have 12 core subjects that washington state requires us to show that our child has checked the box for You know like they did chemistry this week. Well, you're sure they learned how to make a ravioli right and that that counts as Kitchen chemistry so a class for that as chemistry But then I am also very careful to ensure that even if they like because there's some weeks They don't want to take their online mathnasium class They probably would not be doing logic puzzles right now if dad wasn't paying him five bucks Every time they successfully completed a really hard logic puzzle in this logic book that I got for them So there are certain little things I nudge them towards that. I know they aren't super interested in But that are going to serve them well in life and then everything else is you know weekly family meeting What are you guys passionate about? What do you want to learn? One local assistant who helps to drive them around and you know get them to different activities One virtual assistant who kind of helps us keep track of all their different passions and interests and you know Which block of the year are we going to kind of? Focus on whatever woodworking and which block of the year we're going to focus on building the tree for it And which block are we going to do more wilderness survival and plant foraging and we just keep a running List of all the things are interested in then weave those in Throughout the year and it's scary because there is no model. There is no proven model There's no one right way to do it here in there And you want you you almost want like a set pattern habit or routine because that's what we all grew up with with schooling Once you realize it doesn't have to be that way and that kids actually learn really well through this concept of free creative play So that's what works really well. So essentially unschooling is no real Hard structure, you know curriculum right and you know, here's a thing here's my argument in support of what you're saying I'm glad you explained that and you did it so well Modern society is a lot of specialization You go to work and you're probably really good at a couple things and that's how modern society works You don't need to know everything Or or lots of little things you kind of need to be really good at one thing And for anybody who's I mean anybody who has kids, you know when your kid is into something Like when my boy was four years old You know, he loved thomas the train the train set the little trains and there's like, I don't know 300 figurines Yeah, or maybe thousands right and so I I saw that he was really into it and he built the trains So I bought him he might he had to have at least 100 and something trains He knew every single name every at four years old every there were two trains that were twins I could not tell the difference He could it took me days to figure out how he was doing it And you know what it was it was the direction of the eyebrows was slightly off on one or the other And it's because he was into it, you know, they're like little tiny sponges So what are you seeing unfolding with your kids right now? What do you what what are you noticing? Are you can you do you guys feel like you can kind of predict What they're going to be into or what they're going to do when they get older by now Well, they've been saying what they want to do since they were like three or four they both Love art and writing they they they love cooking they have a cooking podcast And even even above like cooking and food prep They like to create art both of their purpose statements are based around Inspiring people to joy and adventure with their art and with their writing River does a little bit more of the writing Taran does a little bit more of the art And they really want to do a lot more publishing of their own books They want to live in Moscow, Idaho 90 minutes from our house for all their nieces and nephews reside and they want to Live down there and make books and kind of have like a little coffee shop that they run during the day And then write books, you know in the evening or in their off time And that's what they want to do right now is you know beat authors and own a coffee shop You know that that might change a year from now. They might want to be professional tennis players You never know, but you just you sit back and you just let them pursue their passions and Resist the urge to push them towards the stuff that you really thought Because living vicariously through your children is so easy. It's cruel. What do you How are you guys teaching them finances right now? They've got these books called the Tuttle Twin books that are a little bit more of kind of a libertarian conservative approach to the economy and the finances they Go through each month with their actually they're they're once a week right now with their their podcast producer and manager The financials, you know what they're bringing in from each affiliate. What percentage the affiliates are oh great They go grocery shopping with mom and with our assistant to help You know manage things like you know finding deals and finding discounts same thing on amazon They leave the tip when we go to restaurants whenever we're playing card games You know they're in charge of keeping track of the you know the the the numbers and the digits and um And it's great because it's all real life. I mean this is all stuff that you're gonna have to deal with Yeah, so do you guys? Allow them to be buy whatever they want freely or how does that work for them saving and spending so so any time They're actually pretty big savers. Yeah, they're they're big enough to save them But again, we are too like we're just not like we drive a Toyota Highlander and you know dodge pickup and we don't live a very Fancy flashy like you know flashy lifestyle. I you know this shirt cost me 10 bucks from the thrift store And jessem makes our furniture and like we we live pretty simple And so I think they just they've never really grown up being spend thrifts We don't live with the spirit of scarcity, but we also just we're not spent we don't spend all our money on random items But the understanding in our house is that if it's related to education, especially if it's a book No questions asked. I will buy it for them All right, I will provide them anything that really fuels something that they want to learn about something They're passionate about if it's a nerf gun if it's a lego toy, whatever Then what they do is they send to my assistant marge who does a lot of our shopping what what they would like And that you know the other email addresses she finds the best deal And she comes back and tells us how much it is then they decide if they want to get it if they do She then transfers from their bank accounts where all their affiliate income from their podcast goes where You know any any money that they make you know gifts that they get for their birthday or Christmas or whatever And she'll do a transfer until they know that when they bought that it gets transferred You know it goes it's purchased using our amazon account But then the transfer occurs from their account into ours so they're covering and they have the freedom to I mean if they decide to go on a crazy Addiction of nerf guns and buy them every day technically could with their own money They could they could they could do whatever they want with their own money But again like because they see mom I mean they they see me spending this is almost too much You know they'll see me spending 10 minutes deliberating over You know which double a batteries to get on amazon because one packs like two dollars cheaper So we're we're pretty aware of spending in our home. So I think they're they're pretty used to just the the value of Of saving slash investing. I haven't taken them through any investing courses or anything like that yet, but That's awesome. One thing that I've heard from people and this one's actually quite a disturbing Comment I'll get on homeschooling is they'll say things like Well, there's a lot of parents out there that are really bad the kids shouldn't be Uh, you know the parents a lot of parents shouldn't school their kids and they should go And to me this is always a such a Disturbing thing to hear because of course there's bad parents out there But if you added it all up and you did the math and study I would trust a parent raising their kid over the state Raising your kid mainly because parents Usually care about their kids or or a co-op or or a collective I mean or a homeschooling group like like there are ways that a parents can be involved in their children's education And if they don't have the heart of a teacher or they're frankly a shitty teacher Like there there are ways that you can homeschool or not be Just as a wonderful teacher for arts or crafts or gardening But she's not going to teach the kids calculus or science because she didn't she didn't learn that stuff in college She doesn't have a passion for it. So that's a big part is whatever your kids are interested in You find the person that's going to do the best job teaching them that it might not be you and that's okay So a little speculation do you how do you think what do you think is going to happen with the current education model now that Formal education that the cost of it is it's been exploding for years far faster than inflation Schools are now a lot per you know either shutting down that kids can't go there. So kids are at home or You have to go to school and you have to wear a mask and do this whole thing Which can be very anxiety inducing. I'm sure in children. They don't know what's going on Or you have schools that are saying hey like harvard, for example said Next year all online. Oh by the way, it's still $50,000 a year tuition. We're not changing the cost Speculating moving forward. Do you think that we're witnessing the beginning of the end of the way that school has been administered? Because of all these stresses now and then of course technology making it So inexpensive to transmit and receive information. What do you what do you see moving forward with that? I've I personally think a hundred years from now We're going to look back and laugh at about the past 60 years or so of education that we've tried to hang on to the threads of That is all based off the agricultural revolution and the design of factory workers and in It's laughable I really don't anticipate that model sticking around much longer And who knows we might be in the time right now during the covet pandemic Where it's a full on light bulb moment and people really do realize. Oh, shit. I was paying $50,000 To go to harvard and they've just admitted that everything that i'm getting from there. I could literally be Doing from a beach in thailand for free while simultaneously running a surface significantly less. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah crazy Well, you guys are you're always a great guest band and I loved having you on jessa. Thank you. Yeah, this is great Both very very good people. I love uh hearing about how you guys are at home and and how everything's going on And I wish you guys continued blessings and success with with everything Thank you. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for letting us emerge from our our little hole Well, you know, you're always welcome under our rock. You're always welcome on our podcast It's like it's like a direct flight. Yeah. Yeah, excellent. Yeah, we just gotta get you guys up to spoke handsome time We're due we're due for you We haven't been there in a while so all right guys. Thanks. All right. Thanks guys I think my parents thought for a second that they were getting in trouble for smuggling like salamis and shit because Importing you're not supposed to do that, right? But I think I had like cheeses and salamis and stuff So I could tell like the panic, you know on their face like sweat like oh fuck they caught us, you know And then they pulled out my cap gun and the look my mom gave me