 Hello everybody, if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that means it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always my one and only co-host It's Tyler. What's up, brother? How are you doing? Hey, buddy. Good to be here excited for today's guest. Absolutely. Welcome back Tyler Also, I'm so happy to be spending time with this gentleman again one of my favorite people in the world Mr. Benjamin Sava one of the great AOS players the world. How are you doing brother? Hey, man, how's it going? It's good to be here. It is doing very well It is wonderful to have you on the show and we are gonna be talking about something I think near and dear to all of our hearts today, which is our work place. I think we all have a love of orcs, right? Absolutely fully on board now was my first ever army walks and goblins I Realize cool in green skins anymore or has that been decided to be problematic? I think we can still call them green skins. Am I very loud? I think I might be very loud here I'm sorry. I'll turn it down everybody. There we go. Hopefully that's better I didn't realize I had my mic turned way up. So hopefully that's better for everyone. Yeah, it looks like we're spiking less there Sorry everybody I Apologize if I blew your door your ears off, but it is appropriate at least I didn't start the show by yelling wah As I as as I wanted to do But at any rate Benjamin we have a bar of we just got to be under four and a half hours for the show I think we can do yeah Okay, that'll take me to 230 Took so much pleasure out of that time stamp that I saw on last week's video Appreciate it that Tom. Good work everybody last week It was a lengthy lengthy lengthy show. Sorry I was recording something else and I had to turn the microphone way up and I forgot that I left it way up And it didn't show me spiking before anyone I was testing. So sorry everybody I also turned Ben up a little and Tyler. So hopefully they'll be coming through stronger All right. Well now that we've got some sound issues resolved gentlemen. Let's get into the news. We can go through that quick Yeah, rumour engine Got the London underground logo stamped on a skeleton head mm-hmm, and What do you think witch hunter was the first thing that came to my mind? I went in doubt witch hunter Seems to be the latest out at the version of vampires right now. Sure. Sure. Yeah There is a boot by the way in this picture right here. Yeah clearly see a boot a leather boot, right? So I agree with you. This is our dawn bringer Crusades a dawn bringer Crusades hero out in the wilderness of Gerr Striking forth a bold human hero. No doubt that is a hundred percent what it is. I think we've solved it Benjamin Any guests from you as to what this particular little rumor engine is going to be I'm just I'm just I'm just looking at it now for the first time. I hadn't even seen it today This is the London underground. Mm-hmm the guy with the London underground head. Mm-hmm Yeah, that looks like a Like a shades by a base to me. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, probably an underroll thing Wonderland of worlds. Yeah, that's what it's called. Yeah, it looks like that looks like one of those detail bases That's it. That's all yeah. No, I can see that. Yeah This this is the type of rumor engine that I hate because you know exactly what it is without knowing at all What it is like it's clearly a tree in a tombstone. Got it Like yep, that's what it is So last week's image a hilt of a sword and we saw like a piece of an armor I wonder if that's the same model Time will tell time will tell it's rare that we get these that I go. Yes This is exactly what I wanted right like I know exactly what this is boom Like when we got the original witch hunter image for the guy from Cursed City or whatever We were all like no, which other, you know, like it was so obvious because of like the the hammer thing like yep You use that to drive stakes. It's rare. We get those So, yeah, that's the rumor engine. We had gen con a few Previews announcements the teaser for war cry at gen con Benz you were there. Yeah, I was yeah, oh So first up we had the warmer underworld's Harrow deep Which is gonna be set in Olga they said so maybe foreshadowing Some Malarian elves in 2022 one can hope It's inevitable everybody complains about stormcast Yeah, there's like there's too much stormcast first of all We haven't even had like a real stormcast release for three years since the launch of a OS you know years, right? I'll tell you what I'm complaining about all these elves. We can't stop getting elves and we've still got more elves to go we've got the other half of LRL we've got these shadow elves everybody wants and then they'll they'll probably find some new fifth type of elf The sixth type of elf. I don't even know what number we're on now. They're everywhere You've got a cannot the avenue they will be out as well. Absolutely. Yeah Second wave of I don't know that's been rumored for forever. Yeah, let's do it Yeah The thing that's not to me about this announcement was they're gonna do pre decks as part of the game now So, you know, it's a sort of a card collecting thing where you try to create the perfect deck for competitive play I was personally never really that interested but the idea of having the decks pre-built for you I'd find that a little more intriguing a little easier plug-and-play, you know getting a game in so I thought that was cool For this. Yeah, it's a good idea. I'm shocked. They haven't done it already. Frankly. I know yeah I'm kind of just listening to you guys for the news actually because I normally watch Yeah, the I I don't think I've ever seen such a strong distinction between Incredible art and a miniature that frankly failed to realize that as the leader of the storm cast for Harrow deep Because in the art she's gorgeous and she's lit by the lantern against this sort of like dark shadowy background with this wonderful Environmental lighting and her hoods down and she has a like very it's a beautiful piece of art and then in the mini They sculpted her with like her hood up and it's like covering part of her face And she's looking to the side and making kind of a strange face, and I'm just like No, this isn't what I did not want Yeah, it doesn't it doesn't land does it doesn't land right the expression and A combination with the hood here. I agree. No, it's odd Yeah, so that needs to be replaced like you've got to snip her head off Remold the cloak and then put on a sister of battlehead and then because she has the sister of battle haircut It's just blonde. It's not white. Hmm. Yeah, she's got a simple Bob, right? Well, there's plenty of options for Bob haircut Exactly in the in the Warhammer universe Now even you can get guys with the good old bull Bob type of haircut, right? Like that's easy because that new black Templar guy there that everybody's focused in on has it. So good to go. I Think sisters in battle have plenty as well. Oh, yes. Oh, yes Representation with a different hairstyle. Yeah, not just the crew cut All right, so we had that and then a little war cry teaser Which I mean the obvious guess would be spider fang that would match up with the rumor that we got a while back We're supposed to be getting a new rack knock spider. Maybe a spider fang versus piece of chaos I think that was the rumor Not all incidentally those rumors are not to be true from that source I think they were off on the great nights for example great nights didn't get any models except for one You know one new model one character. I think Yeah, what do you guys think Benjamin any any thoughts guesses I be did you see the war cry teaser? I normally do just all around it from you guys So I thought I saw that there was a lot of people talking about Eight-legged things or there was a lot of suggestions of spiders. So I think that guess that makes sense to me So more on Twitter from than anything that saw people talking about spiders I haven't heard the beast of chaos rumor. Everybody seems to think that beast of chaos are a On their way out. I think those people are crazy every time somebody doesn't feel like they get enough attention They're like, oh, no, we're on the chopping block. We're gonna go and I'm like No beast of chaos have been like, okay. If there's anything All right, folks, let me explain to you why beast of chaos are fine. Okay? We live in an age that does not create anything new Culturally, okay, we only mine nostalgia. That's it We want to sell you what you enjoyed as children over and over and over and over again Okay, and beast of chaos have one of the oldest pedigrees in Warhammer if you've ever seen the original white dwarf like A catalog of all the different beasts of like the crab beasts and the ostrich beast and the you know Just like nuts. Oh animal mixes from like 85 So I'm like at 86 they were very early I need I need hooves of doom here because he's the he's the librarian of the Keeper of all these facts of when things were made but like They have the longest-serving pedigree In a time when they're bringing back all of these things to resell you the things you love They're not gonna kill one of these beloved things They might remake the beloved thing in a new way to resell it to you again They would do that Okay So like on a long enough timeline You'll get all of those things that your little hearts wanted as kids that you couldn't afford when you were 14 And now you'll have it as adults with disposable income and they'll be more than happy to shove it right into your face So no beasts of chaos are not going away. It's crazy And like it's it's why I completely believe all the chaos dwarf rumors and that they'll repackage cast wars for the same reason It's why when we get to the old world, they'll have obviously they'll have Bretonians and they'll have tomb kings back to sell again, right so You know, yep Checks out Although as we'll get into shortly, I think with bones players Maybe if that is any indication of the direction that factions such as bones flares fleshy accords Beasts of chaos are going in. You're probably better. Just Just a quick death, you know, just off with the head Don't you don't want to go this way? Yeah, I'll scream I'll do my best to defend the our bones letters, but I but I I get where you're going. So I Get where you're coming from. I will do my best So there we go So one thing on this I remember Thinking that there was a reference to spider faying With very inspire ever chosen very guard from back in the day and did a little soothing and yeah found war of the spider empire It was a page on the original ever chosen book that that you know battle tone for some reason we got in 2015 one of the first battle tones with like three war scrolls in it Yeah, there was a page where it talked about the very guard and ever chosen invading spider sort of spider things I think it's called the howling cities and So, yeah, there's some precedent for Yeah little homework It behooves the authors to just make a bunch of crap like this up Okay, like it behooves Phil Kelly and his team to just like go nuts and Drop stuff like this around so that nerds argue about it forever and can then win eventually by pure happenstance The sculptors decide to expand it then all of a sudden they can be like, oh, see I knew the whole time and it's like It's such a it's such a survivor bias Right because you know you're only picking the one that they decided to make it to something and not the 500 they did nothing with that are just dangling threads, but sure Thanks, thanks. Thanks for killing my research and thought process that I appreciate well done Tyler. Good job you Heuristics and biases into it as always Vince. Well, thank you. I love you Okay, so last piece We wanted to talk about briefly the worst girls and what has happened. What's happening to them? Yeah, they removed all the worst girls from the website. I mean, it's that simple Nothing much more to it. The worst girls all got removed the download section is gone even on the old stuff And then but I'm not sure that I really care is my answer Like I liked having them there don't get me wrong But that isn't actually the common place I referenced them as long as they remain free in the app then fine like the app is free and You don't have to sign up for Warhammer pluse right now with it And in fact, it has like a skip signing in option which assumes will then have less less capabilities or whatever And you know as of right now if you look in it like the stormcast their command traits and stuff like that are locked The things they're in the book unless you use your code to open it But the worst girls are all there and in full detail. So I assume they're just going to use the same model they always did where the worst girls are free and the Rest of the stuff the rest of the functionality if you want the detail you got it by the book and pay for Warhammer pluse I assume that'll be the road they go on And everybody's saying like for now. Yeah, I know it's for now. Thank you. I'm fully aware like I don't Folks, I love you all but like maybe it'll change. Maybe it won't Right like if it does then I'll call them on it for being crappy because worst girls should always be free If it doesn't and they remain free, then you spent a lot of mental and emotional energy on absolutely nothing of value so How about we wait and see what they do? They seem to imply in the arc in the articles that the worst roles would always be free and the part that would be hooked Into police would be like the army building and all that stuff. So and besides to actually build my army I'm always gonna use war scroll builder. All hail Tony P. Are living saint May he forever reign Um, so there you go. All right, that's it Oh, and folks, we're gonna skip events this week just to save time. Yes. Yes. Well, we'll be back to that soon though Don't worry. Thanks everybody. I just want to thank the other number of people been sending me events info Paul right. Thank you for your info from iron realms and others really appreciate it. Yeah, keep sending in those Events to Dan and myself It's all very helpful Here's blood type this weekend That's right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's right Rob big one in the calendar Who's been that is rob and company putting that on Uh, mark will since the to and rub is streaming. It's from the lgt. So it's a huge 40k tournament And then it's a big it's normally international, but obviously, uh slightly less international teams will be there this year because of travel and whatnot, but The big 120 so it's the biggest uk one so far. Well, are you gonna be there? Yeah, yeah, we've got team fiction me and leo and alex and ben. Uh, sweet man. Good luck No, I'm excited. Yeah, I can't wait to see how everybody does it's gonna be great to see a really big event in full swing I'm I am beyond excited. I will be watching Uh, just my my wife is away this weekend So it's just gonna be me hanging out paid to get me watching all of you play some fun games this weekend So, uh, the only time I won't be watching is when I'm getting some games in myself, but they won't be near as exciting Uh, just a quick comment. Thanks tyler s just joined, but did I miss spider fang news? You did spider fang? It's probably happening. That was our that was the news And uh shout out to anthony who said skipping events is what tyler is good at boom Gotcha Well full credit on that one. Yeah, and uh, at I agree Where are my dragons every week we will this is my carthage must be destroyed Where are my dragons? We can talk about whether or not they're overpowered. I don't care raise them 50 points I don't care That's fine. They should probably be 325 points for two of them like easily there were 325 points I take 335 I take 350. I'm fine with it folks. I don't care about them because of that I love them because I think they're cool as and I want to play dragon knights I read dragon lance when I was a very small kid. I read the legend of humor I thought it was the coolest story ever of people riding on the backs of dragons with big lances And I want I would like to buy my childhood, please. Thank you as I just said so Here we go Okay, I'm not gonna tips that one I've been enjoying your commentary on twitter this week benjamin Yeah, we all agree dragons are under costed everybody agrees. We all know it It's just a question of how under costed they are So let's just find a better point value and move them up to that and then we can move on great like meet next Right, like I've never seen more universal community agreement than the dragons are under costed great. Yeah, okay So who cares like I'll still be playing them. It's cool Uh, there you go Uh, uh and oh and uh shout out to the Oh and jackson who said you can see my team and I walk away with the trophy see there bence. All right. Oh and putting it down Putting it down All right, uh, so Uh, yeah, that's that's all our news gentlemen. Shall we uh, shall we move to our next topic? Uh, shall we get to some pick? Oh the week tyler. You've got links. They're in the description What would you like to share with everybody? Yeah So quickly go through these Speaking of the oh and jackson the legend grows. There was a video by kiryoth a pretty well known fellow doing A warmer content particularly 40k a big channel He attended his played his very first aos games period And he did it at a tournament nice and yeah A couple weekends ago now. I can't remember which tournament was Benjamin. You might know but I think it was hammer. Right. Okay. Thank you. And Appropriately played oh and the first game Amazing Fantastic. Yeah, uh, he Yeah, he had an incredible experience that first game and just all weekend. So it was really cool to hear somebody Really playing their first games ever at a tournament. Uh, and yeah Just just You couldn't wish for a better first opponent than owin. I think I've played him many many times and he is One of the he is the nicest person I've played on the tabletop actually always the most enjoyable games against owin So the perfect a very perfect first opponent. Yeah So it was just a really cool video hearing him go through his games and talk about his experience and and all that kind of dispelling, you know, some of the lingering myths or Just views that folks have and being scared to attend tournaments And on that note as well, uh, paul at radio free hammer hall Did a video perfectly enough entitled why everyone should go to a was tournaments and he's kind of talking about You know Kind of talking in general about it. He also mentioned which I think is important that You know, we have a lot of experience of I think a was tournaments being incredibly inclusive I just kind of broadly defined, you know, I saw at brucey brawl. There were a lot of women. I mean, they're like eight women Uh, you could see in a photo With the you know, the rest of us guys, which is just incredible to see at brucey brawl burden is great a really good, you know environment over there and It's just yeah, I thought paul nailed it in terms of all the different reasons why, you know We've got a good thing going with with tournaments in the community in general So those two kind of go together and then finally A tabletop tactic so a little bit of a different one They're arguably the biggest probably are the biggest battle report channel periods They run by this guy Lawrence it's been doing it for quite a while. He's one of the playtesters for 40k. So mostly it's it's pretty much all 40k content But he had a discussion recently Is 40k nine two complicated? I mean spoiler their answer is, you know, yes, essentially But they went into a lot of depth and I think it's a good Reference for what we should be concerned about, you know might lie in our future if If we're not pushing back and You know trying to be thoughtful of yeah about some of these decisions that are being made They really emphasize strategy gems is a huge one that's had a big impact on 40k Because that's the one that opens up a lot of gotcha hammer potential Because you're not going to know the hunch, you know all of the strategy gems of all of these books And and they can be played at any given time and have a big impact on the game So I thought it was an amazing discussion really highly recommend everybody check that out because a lot of it's very relevant to a was 3.0 and potentially going forward Nice nice Yeah, I very very very much have that fear That's why I was so happy to see a lot simplified, especially with like the storm cast book I'm not sure this book will have a discussion of whether or not we think that's true here as well But because the storm cast are really the sort of intro army and sort of the obvious pickup if you're a new player Like we need to have I'm okay with a few armies being highly complex and being real head scratchers Like those should exist too Because there needs to be something for lunatics like benjamin to play and map out with his like 12 spell casters and what they're casting for each thing in his exact first turn order Like he'd like to do your pepe silver wall like that was I you know a very rewarding thing for those types of players Which I do not count myself amongst But it's good that I exist but at the same time overall the game should trend toward simplicity because complexity should become emergent Right, it should be the emergent interactivity of different elements of the game that breathe that sort of thing. So any who Benjamin, what would you like to share with everybody? uh, I have to admit that I Write about the beginning of lockdown last year I started listening to fantasy audiobooks with viewer potentially maybe starting To write my own erstwood novel. I used to be a writer before I became a painter I've had a few things published, but so I got really really out of listening to Basically anything else if I'm painting now i'm listening to an audiobook I've listened to like maybe 40 or 50 fantasy novels in the last in the last year or so Just just every single day and i'm about 20 books deep into horror serace now. So don't have any Good warhammer related content to recommend. So what i'm going to recommend is, you know, jay cozger the expert fundus Yes. Yeah. Yeah He so I think he is like the the The funniest warhammer related He has the funniest warhammer related twitter account out there like his his actual good sense of humor that and he He makes warhammer funny in a way that a lot of other people try to do especially with like memes and and Jokes and things like that that just don't really land as well as his stuff and he basically made uh The little menial who is polishing hellbreak. Yes. Yes From the new thing he photoshopped that so everyone can post the little menial onto their own pictures And i've been seeing quite a few of those on twitter and they've been really making me laugh And i'd like to see more of those on twitter. So if you go to his page He's got the little cut out of the menial dude who's cleaning the blade and you can add him onto your own pictures Um, so I just want just that's just selfish. I just want to see more of those because they really make me That's brilliant Awesome awesome pick. I saw a couple different ones where the menial was uh, was polishing up, uh, sigvalds Uh, beautiful glorious exposed booty. So I that's that seems absolutely appropriate Uh ghost button said any fantasy book recommendations recommendations benjamin Uh I mean just I just got into so much brandon sanderson after somebody recommends storm light archive to me I listened to the whole of that. I listened to all of mistborn series And then I even when I found out that uh, he wrote the last three books of wheel of time I read or listened to all 14 books of wheel of time just so I could Listen to more brandon sanderson. So I would say like like any brandon sanderson really is a really good place to start Like I I read a lot and and read a lot of like non fantasy books before this last year as well Uh, you know things like gene paul sartra and david foster wallace and you know like actual You know like really really incredibly well written prose and I would say he's up there with one of the best writers I've read not even like as a fantasy writer, which feels like a caveat Sometimes you have to give like, you know, he's good for a fantasy writer He like brandon sanderson's a legitimately good writer like his His characters are just incredibly complex and nuanced and this is just really really incredible character Narrative arcs and yeah, it's just it's really really clever really interesting really human Writing so I think that is is definitely the best place to start and stormlight archive is his Is sort of magnum opus. I would say Yeah, I really liked mistborn. I think I liked it better honestly, but but yeah, that's to each their own But yes, I thought he is a great writer. I absolutely agree And if you if you're doing he does a bunch of talks and stuff He's put up on youtube of just like about writing If so if you're someone who's interested in writing and brandon sanderson's methods and things like that He does all sorts of online talks He's published where he breaks down like the way he writes and how he thinks about characters And how he thinks about story arcs and just everything like that. He's incredibly prolific. So, um, there you go So, yeah, great fantastic fully fully backed recommendation Yeah, I'm with that completely Uh, yes as autumn lotus pointed out. Yes, the great clean one or I think somebody else mentioned it too But somebody had uh, oh and mentioned as well somebody had in polish you can charting him into the great clean one. Yes that next version Yes, the mean yellow is it's Completely memeable Uh for my pick of the week, uh Our good buddy friend of the show mr. Mifesto just did a really nice show that went up today on sons of behemoth And uh, some other related items do check that out. That's my pick Uh, it was a lot of fun. I like giant talk giants are interesting To me because they are in such a strange place in the game right now So it's fun to talk about them where you have this it's always interesting when you get a great overlap Of something that is both like incredibly casually interesting that people really like to play And something that's also highly competitive. It's this weird Chris cross of the venn diagram that doesn't always happen Uh, it's not like people were running out and your casual players were adopting vanguard wing Or something like that right like back in the day or whatever we could pick many times where it's been this weird techy complicated nonsense But when it crosses over then I think you easily get problems So you've got I think we got to be very careful about that sort of thing. So yeah, it's just a good discussion Uh, and I'll be interested to see where sons go in the future because I know jp has been stewing up some new data We might have to have our our man j our man in the field jp back on at some point to talk data And the emerging meta and I am here for it All right, let's talk about uh, a little hobby time Uh, before we get into everything else Uh, so hobby time, uh, obviously Tyler you continue to not paint. Did you get any games in? Yeah, I played a first test with newstorm cast and cruel boys last night I think the cruel boys list was we will get into this but One of my intentions with cruel boys is that they are more compelling as combined arms than leaning hard into the shooting Obviously, you want some shooting? And that that was definitely the case last night. It was too much shooting. He couldn't do anything with objective play So, yeah, it was goddess southson prime. I mean just a lot of the good stuff didn't do dragons Not personally that I mean dragons are great, but every time be playing dragons and I think they need to go up Anyway, so I'm not that personally interested But yeah, uh the the bull boys, you know good output It's nothing too crazy. He didn't have the sledge drake sledge raker for the the plus one damage So I think that's a really nice take and yeah Learned a little bit Storm cast are incredibly good at save stacking to nobody's surprise So you can get protectors on a plus four mystic shield built in plus one Uh Anyway, all that just go down the list. Yeah, but it's plus four, which is just unbelievable Just in terms of What's that? Are they three plus on their profile? Yeah, man They're three plus base and then as long as you have I think half or more than half with glaives at any time You get another Plus one not to the characteristic But just always a plus one So then yeah, you add all out mystic and the warning lantern as the fourth one And of course you make them hunters so that they can always be potentially a plus four I mean, you know if you have the conditions, right? Mainly you're like Buffing them up and then sending them in because right now translocation As it's worded it's missing the last sentence where it would say and you cannot move and at the end And you cannot move in the movement phase so you just you can make a move with them And you know, they might be able to redeploy it, but if you're going into like a castle, you're going to get into something They've got a three inch. I mean they do everything. I think you know, there's an interesting debate between fulminators and protectors Fulminators you can you can shut down, you know, you can charge them before they charge you And if they don't blow up what they've gotten into then they could be in trouble You know, you can pin fulminators pretty well protectors are just always on like they're always going to do damage So I I think they're one of the absolute standouts in that book Yeah, I will say protectors also do almost the same damage as the dragons were talking about if you compare them to the sword dragons As opposed to the on the charge lance dragons Which I never fully believe in the on the charge things like there's a lot of really really fast things in this game They can get the drop on you even if you have once again movement shenanigans And so like when I look at the the damage on the lance on the lance is off the charge is It's Not great at all But like the the fulminators do basically the same damage as sword dragons And they're a lot cheaper So You know like you can get a heck of a punch out of them is what I'm saying So yeah, four of them it's insane the damage output if they're on the charge Yeah, it's really nuts. You can you can burn down a giant Likely or three smalls. So yeah, yeah, yeah, it was interesting. Yeah, kind of learning a little bit more about crowboys and kind of where they are I don't like battle shock There you go. Yeah, they don't have a way to ignore battle shock either for the most I mean other than they got a couple We'll talk about but yeah, all right. Yeah, it's not not a whole lot. Yeah Benjamin, what have you been hobby and anything interesting on your table that you've been painting? Uh, yeah, but I don't know whether it's does it count as hobby anymore? I think I definitely do some do some commissions that definitely just feel like work But this week has not been one of those because I've been doing stuff Um, additional things for I don't know if you saw the obr army I did for leo that was sort of like all the towels towels and two two kings Sort of shields on all of the the obr So I've been adding some soul like graveyards stuff for that for this weekend Actually, I've been doing a wardrobe of vangorian lord and some zombies in the same style as that I've done some absolutely Uh, some of the most ambitious basing for them that I've ever done. It was the the giant's causeway basin. I did um, that was like cutting out loads of individual plastic hexagonal rods of various diameters and pushing them all individually by hand into uh, into putty on top of bases, uh, which was I really really regretted I committed to it and I've really gone to town with that idea now. Um, I'm really getting into um the sort of using uh bases to help tell the story of the the army a lot more and really sort uh You know really going to town with with with a few of the basing schemes. I've been doing recently. Um And I think it can they can it can just add so much and it's I think it's uh Quite an overlooked area of the model. I think like once you once you painted the model It's often just slaps and paint on it dry brush it You know get the basin done and then and then you can start playing but I think there's there's a lot of uh There's there's a lot you can explore I think with basing. So I've been doing that Uh for my own stuff I did actually like I very rarely get to do any hobby for myself this week But because I've got tournament coming up, which is the only time that I ever get to do anything for myself I rushed something out in the last few days before the event But um be interesting to hear your opinions on it as well. I did post about it on twitter But I so I made this model. I made a lord of afflictions that was Uh built out of voted bloat drone. I think what they're called from 40k. Okay. Yeah It's it's like a war chanter bursting out of it and it's sort of like uh mechanical and Organic together and it's a cross between two of my armies. So the the sort of The clan skia which is which is clan mech the leader of that is a character called elok Who's there the sort of arch warlock and he uh, he basically makes it's an adeptome of some mecanicus themed armies so he makes all of the you know all of the Skia acolytes are built out of skitari I've got the vermin lord that's built out of a knight, uh, you know, like So it's all mechanical based and then the the sort of the guy behind the scenes who runs the big skirt Which is my nergal themed oryx is a little goblin shaman called pox And in the story of the earthward those those two characters are sort of like they've they've come across each other Uh pox is no and elok is trying to become his sort of His master so it's like a master and apprentice kind of relationship And so I'm so the idea is that elok has helped him to build this this character from scratch With view of trying to help him to perhaps use the same techniques that eloks uses to Uh to create some of his own characters within this nergal characters or troops within this nergal thing But it's such like I don't know like it feels like quite a novel idea to me like mixing two like of your own very distinct and very Uh, sort of personal narratives and then putting them together in an army And I wasn't sure how people would Would sort of react to that on the tabletop. They look at like a floated bloat drone You say this is my lord of afflictions, you know, like they could be like what the hell how why I I love the idea. I did see it. I thought it was great. I really did. I thought it was a very cool conversion Look, you're talking to a guy who Cut up all of the mega gargants and hacked them to be, you know, frankensteinian monsters And built my city's a sigma army out of like, you know, terrain stuff and 40 k pieces and plasticards So, you know, to me, yes 100 percent. It's that's I'm on board man 100 percent. I I loved it I loved it because I you know, I know the the background of your stuff and what you've been you've been creating And so yes, I think it's it's great when you can get That much of your own sort of narrative and then start bringing this stuff together. I see no no issue with it at all I think it's fantastic See if it's got the vince ventrilo that thumbs up then i'm gonna run with it hardcore thumbs up right here, buddy 100 percent Yeah guys, I see this come up, you know, like a lot of our packs still have the whizzy wig You know what you see is what you get and like the packs will sometimes still emphasize this notion of like The model's got to have the right weapon option equipped and I just in terms of I never really found that to be the case and like an issue like Nobody gives a damn nobody really cares. Tell me what you've got I'm good to go And like I mean as long as it's you know, like I could see there there's a couple of asterisks maybe like if you've got A unit that doesn't look like the actual unit and then you have the actual unit in the army Right, sure. Maybe that's that's the thing. There are sort of three situations. We're always trying to avoid one tuna can chariots Right, that's like nobody wants that. Okay two The i'm too lazy to do anything for the new figs. So i'm just gonna grab my glade guard and say they're now Uh You know bleak sorts or whatever. I don't know Right, just like a is b and there's no effort put in there They just literally grabbed the models and said this is now this Right And then c is yes the bad actor who was like almost trying to confuse you by saying like oh these phoenix guard are actually Executioners, but these phoenix guard are really phoenix guards. It's like, okay. No no stop Okay, but like that kind of behavior the three three things. I just labeled are super rare Um, when I see people do conversions and they're reasonably accurate to what they are. I'm like, yeah, let's do this It's fantastic, right? Like I'm stoked as for it. I'm very happy about it um, and and by the way like There's lots of ways to go about that. I've seen that from very simple things People using other things to become things, but they make it feel like that thing So I don't have a problem with taking phoenix guard and turning them into executioners as long as you sell me that Right, maybe you put some executioner heads on them or you do something else with the weapons or whatever And then you don't have normal phoenix guard like cool. That's just your take on those. Yeah fantastic I'm down with it, you know Like fine or all the way up to super crazy conversions like what you're talking about and yes I agree that part of the pack just needs to be more carefully written Right to say like look here's the bad behavior Don't be stupid if you show up with something that's obviously in bad faith I'll ban it off the table and you can't use it in the game And that's it Those little addendums to to packs end up being quite prohibitive in a way that actually when you get to the event Like the to's won't care about it. Like we'll have a world has quite a bad reputation for for their sort of their packs being quite sort of severe with with the wording of proxies and whizzy wig and things like that But then I took that skyer acolyte army I think the the general consensus is if you go to a warhammer world event don't email them pictures It says to email you pictures and they'll confirm them whether they're okay or not And quite a few people have had things rejected from there because they've sent in the pictures I just went with the approach of just don't don't don't send them anything and take it there And I took that skyer acolyte army Which was it's all skitari rangers. Uh, there's no there's no Actual scaven in there apart from like heads and bits for conversions Um took that to warhammer worlds that I was on stream on the very Someone the night before actually on the friday night someone said to me like have you have you Have you had them okay that like I really I really think that they'll make you take that off the table And I was I was really worried I hadn't been to many events at that point I was kind of oh no, you know like are they gonna actually make me take it off But I was I was on stream there. They gave me an award at the end of it Um artisan of renown or something like that for for for doing something so sort of out there So I think a lot of the time it's just Actually in real life rule of call trumps everything I think for most people It's exactly it It's exactly it Right. Yeah. Yeah, like as long as long as you say is it's had it's had some effort put into it And someone's done something intentionally rather than just like oh, I've had this, you know Like if I had a float float drawing lying around and I was just like I'm just gonna make this in so Lord of afflictions so I can't bother to buy anything else and or whatever But you know like as long as there's effort been put in I think most people Will go for it. Won't they event 100% because we all want to see cool stuff Right. That's that's the universal rule like it's we want to see cool stuff and you can you can smell effort And it's inverse from a mile away Right, like I know when I look at somebody's army and it's obvious they've put in effort And if they did a bunch of cool stuff, then I'm on board for it. I love it. I'm into it I want to see people bring their imagination to life. Isn't that supposed to be part of the fun of this hobby? Right, like I love it And so like my some of my favorite armies that I've seen are when people just get really nuts and and really let their imagination go wild Uh, and I think that should never that that should never be kept down. All right. Anyways, we got a lot to cover So I'm gonna keep us moving I wouldn't definitely agree. Yeah scale in size. You got to have that right, but sure Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's that's part of the you know, don't don't be a bad faith actor Right, exactly. Yeah, yeah You don't take like a bunch of of some tiny miniature and be like You know, you don't go get the original hero quest bloodthirsters and put them on the bloodthirster base and be like these are my bloodthirsters Like, okay, we come on now All right All right My hobby time uh was limited because I was at gen con all weekend from basically after the show last week until Uh late on sunday, so I did not have a lot of hobby time, but I have Got my annihilator all finished up. There he is with his big bonkin stick Um, I've only got one more to do in the unit. He doesn't have a shield on I just didn't attach it yet But there he is mr. Annihilator and uh my my rat cast annihilator with his bonker One more to do there and that will mean technically I have two battle line units done if I play knights excelsior So that's pretty good So there we go. I'm getting close. Uh, there's a lot more to do though. Um There plans to be much painting time this weekend and over the weeks to come If I don't I gotta get enough painted that if they don't get me my dragons in time I still have it on me depending on when these freaking dragons eventually release Okay, the dragons the dragons in the same theme. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they're all gonna be rat cast It's gonna be my my rat cast writing dragons. Yep I'm just amazing Uh my my scaven were my my scaven were redeemed They are now among sigmar's champions And so the greatest of them have been given dragons to ride rats on dragons is another dream of mine from when I was very young So there you go Uh, all right Okay, so, uh, let's get into some oryx shall we gentlemen Let's do this It is time To review the oryx war clients. Let's make sure that looks okay. Yep. That looks great Okay Oryx war clients before I get to my summary page. I'm gonna go to both of you gentlemen Overview of the book what you think about it. It's designed. Do you like it? Whatever give me a 40 000 foot view Of it Benjamin i'm gonna start with you since you're the guest Which what's your general high level feeling on the book in toto? So I kind of think that the 40 000 foot view Is the view If that makes sense Yeah, I can see everything already from 43 000 feet away. There's no sort of uh There won't be as you mentioned earlier. There won't be any sort of like, you know pouring through the pouring through the battle tome in three or four months time and finding secret little combos and Adding them all up to make something that is much bigger than the sum of its parts. I think you you kind of it kind of It's it's hard on its sleeve isn't it as a as a battle tome So I think that's my kind of my overview is just that actually you can you can you can see all of the parts You can see all of the moving parts and how they will fit together and then I think The key to unlocking the battle tome will be not It'll just be it'll just be figuring out how how best they do work together rather than finding sort of lots of little hidden gems and secrets and making it far too complicated and over the top which is what I normally do That's basically but that's that's Fair enough. Tyler, what's your read? Yeah, I like that So let's see Let me start off because so maybe competitively. I mean that's something that everybody tends to care about I mean iron iron jaws You know, we're gonna talk a little bit gonna share a lot of excitement. I'm gonna get ready people like The iron jaws love is going to be unfettered throughout this show You know, they I'm very grateful to pocastro and you by the way for seeing the future apparently. I'd love to borrow those powers sometime You know that, you know Iron jaws in particular is I mean just about everything that I would want out of a small range of models a a faction that's nice and compact And it's all for the most part doing a thing and it does it well like So getting more details. I thought they nailed them, you know, they're gonna be quite competitive They but they've also have some healthy constraints in particular range damage can still be a challenge So that's good. That's the offset with iron jaws bone splitters We're gonna Ben's men's gonna share a lot of thoughts on bone splitters. I've been hearing a lot of thoughts on the internet That's an army. I have no familiarity with for the most part I mean, I would see them do potentially well with 200 plus wounds And 2.0 to the tell him the 2.0 But I've been gathering that it's it's a bit of a mess with them So I don't really have an opinion on them Cruel boys, we officially have a johnny army, you know in terms of the timmy johnny spike Within destruction. They are definitely a johnny army I think it's gonna be, you know, the Don't strike me as a top tier army I think some skilled players will find a way To get more out of them than than the baseline But I think the results will be all over the place The initial read of shooting heavy doesn't strike me as being right. I'd love to get pushback on that I think you want some shooting And so but I they look like a combined arms to me But yeah, I find them the most intriguing just in terms of Some of the potential but I think there are some obvious misses and like a big first send with cruel boys With one unit in particular in the point value of that unit But yeah, the Like overall design Like I'm you guys touched on this a lot with storm cast in terms of the streamlining You know and you mentioned as well their simplicity isn't always good or bad Like it depends context is required And I think storm cast the the simplicity for the most part was a hit some misses Here, I suspect bone splitters is a big miss but iron jaws. It's a big hit But they were all they were already fairly simple But yet effective and complex in certain ways and what they can do. So yeah, I mean it's it's a mixed bag, but Those are a few thoughts to kick us off. Sure Do you ever see mars attacks? You know, I never did actually see I saw galaxy quest those two kind of came out around the same time But I never didn't see mars attacks. Yeah, it's it's a good movie. It's fun There's a point in there where Where the aliens come in and speak to congress and then melt them all with laser guns with their little laser guns And the president at one point says I want the american people to know they've still got two out of the three Branches of the government working for them and that ain't bad For some reason that stands out in my head with the war clan's uh book So that that ultimately I suppose is probably my surface thought I I mean, it's really four distinct armies in one book, right? You can't mix war clans and anything but big waw because you do have this big waw force That allows you to just kind of throw everything together but with uh, but with restrictions, which we'll talk through Here's my summary of the three Iron jaws simplified but gained in their overall ability to do what they do best to move fast and hit hard I actually love every unit in it more than I did in its previous incarnation. We've somehow gotten better again Because I really feel like the three units have clear role distinctions And are really really functionally interesting and what they do on the table And I've only gotten one game in with these new iron jaws, but my god, did I love it? Uh, it was so good Um, the cruel boys. I think are techie. They do have some powerful shooting without a doubt and they have some decent tricks Um, so, you know, they we'll we'll talk about them Like I think there is some interesting Sort of combo type play there in ways that you can do it Bone split as I think they lost a lot of flavor and options, but I think there's still potential there I think it unfortunately they became a pretty um I think they became a fairly like Single dimension, you know mono dimensional army. I think is unfortunate. Um, I think Yeah, go ahead, please Well on the topic of simplicity, which seems to be a hot topic at the moment within within the competitive scene, um I think simply like with with bone splits as it seems like they've gone Backwards to simplicity whereas I think like if things everything that's simple that's done. Well is done. Well by intention like Uh, I buy a lot of my clothes from a lot of my basics from from a place Just going to fashion just because it's easy for me But I buy a lot of my like clothes from uh a place called cost like a lot of my basics Just do black and white t-shirts really really simple stuff But they're always beautifully made like really really well designed really really beautiful cuts And they're just black and white t-shirts, you know But I pay a premium for them because they're done well and they're done so simplicity because they're designed From from a point where there's you know, that's all it's going to be is ever going to be as a black t-shirt And I think if if that's the way that we're going to go in age of sigma Then and we're only going to have one ability on each war scroll and we're only going to have Three artifacts and we're only going to have three command traits then they they need to be They they all need to be to have a place we cut like if you're taking away all of that stuff Uh that people weren't using then every single piece in there has to be designed It has to you know, if it's just one more scroll on the war scroll it has to be a really good Interesting rule whereas and and then that needs to be done I think from from from the ground up from the point from the starting point It needs to be designed knowing that it's going to be simple But I think what happened with bone splitter is that they've Taken something that was really interesting and it genuinely was one of the most Challenging and rewarding armies that I've that I've ever played I think there was so much more depth in it than than what it appeared Uh on the war scrolls and in and in the old book. I think I think are at war clans It was the best uh book of AOS to um like hands down. Um, and Yeah, and they've just taken all of that flavor away and and And made it simple by just removing things and I just don't think that works Um, and and you know, maybe that is because it is an older faction And we're at the beginning of this new direction and more and more books are going to uh go in this direction But they will have this design philosophy in place. Whereas, you know, it just it does just feel like Things were taken away from them without without Adding anything in right there wasn't like a compensation of sorts there because It's not that simplification. I said this during the last show, but it's worth repeating again Simplification in itself has no value right like it isn't it isn't a virtue in and of its own existence It can sometimes be a necessity because we've complicated the base game Right that is to say the underlying foundational game is now more complex So you can have a good incentive to to keep your game Like moving and playable by having simpler armies, but that does have other consequences beyond that, right? I think it works for iron jaws, which by the way iron jaws still have a lot of I've always said that iron jaws was was was one of this These armies that like always on its face looked simple But it was actually very complicated to play Because you had to play completely in the tactics to win with a melee only army, right? Like your movement your positioning you had to be smart about things you had to be in the right place the right time Apply your power in the right place is the right time and I still think that's true Right, like it's a fundamentals game and it always was what feels good about iron jaws is that I feel like they lost nothing I missed Right and instead I leaned into and now have options to do what I wanted to do which was move and hit people Right and I can just do that in in different and interesting ways now And there's there is new and interesting things to discover like not all of these things are so simplified Though I think we oftentimes say oh, we've simplified all the scrolls or this kind of thing That's not true. Some of these scrolls still have some very techie abilities Both in the iron jaws and in the cruel boys bone split is You know, I agree probably not as much a little miss there, right? But some of these things do have very techie combo if it like bombo combo You will be like a the difference, you know winner and a loser pilot in the army is who uses those abilities correctly Right skill tester abilities. Those are still going to exist Those do still exist in both of these armies, right? But I think at the same time and this is something that that rob has been saying Right is that he says oh, well allegiance abilities are basically nothing now. So only the scroll matters Okay, well rob as ever is prone to a little bit of hyperbole. I love the man, but he does he loves the hyperbole Uh and what I would say is The allegiance abilities have certainly been scaled back and the you know other abilities like sub faction rules have been scaled back So the onus does fall on them to design scrolls that have different roles value and uses in the game Right, because if you make a single scroll that feels like it can do it all Dragons being a good example, right it can then feel overwhelming right So It just incentivizes people who know those those scrolls specifically then really if everything like Stormcast like dragons is a great example of that because there is so much stuff in the stormcast book that just you would never take and is and is really uh It's really dull or doesn't have much of a role on the battlefield Then everyone's just Going to go towards the stuff So that's why eat like I don't mind I don't mind if if this is the direction that we are going in but as I say I think every rule And even if it's just one rule like brutes and odd boys. Yeah, great example, great. We just feel two completely different roles Here's your new co-host If they were just they would just do this anything and that can this be this new co-host Yes, I like tyler, but no tom. Just promise me no tom We're good. We're good cat the dogs dogs and me. Yep. They said yeah, tyler said just dogs in him. There you go I like it. Okay We'll do it. We'll do a spin-off series with just me and the dogs and tyler. I love it There you go Yeah, I think you you're you're dead on benjamin. You're dead on right like the it's amazing how much you can do with One well executed rule right Like you it doesn't take a huge amount and I think that this comp like a lot of this discussion has been around the loss of flavor Or complexity or simplification. That's all these words to get thrown around And part of like what people oftentimes mean with flavor is often just needless complexity Okay, those two things do move not together, but there's a correlation not a causation there You can do really flavorful rules that are pretty simple Brute the brute rule is a great example Right, but they're harder to design. It's really easy to make Bad flavorful rules and bad means overtly complex, right On a wound rule of six when fighting a hero then this thing also happens if you roll a die and on this plus Right because these guys are hero slayers Okay, sure The name swamp caller boss his rule is a really good example of that with the bet and the Yes, and the hub grab and the things and you gotta get the triumph and you can only use it on a specific thing Just awful right awful rule. It's a it's a great. It's a great example, right? So, you know, I think that sometimes you can get People get wound around the axle on this stuff, right? um, and so When you know and by the way, this is a struggle that like lots of games have had over over time It's not like this is something unique to warhammer if you if you look at like D&D and third edition if you look at magic over its history There's plenty of times where flavor was defined as just overtly complex nonsense Right and it doesn't have to be that way Um, you can do flavorful stuff in in with with simpler rule structures, but it's really hard You have to think really hard about the design Right and make sure you're not creating mental baggage And that takes, you know, a lot more thought than just saying six is too wound in this case if this then this in addition this So, yeah, I mean that's that's why I Love iron jobs so much because they they did do such a nice job with that It's it's simple. It's contained, but it's elegant. Everything has a role as you said And but then that's also why so many of those hero role scrolls are meaningless in that storm cast book because they're not They're not filling any role. They're duplicate, etc Or there's a few standout units that are doing too much I think maybe protectors are doing too much. But anyway, yeah Um, kind of difference between simplicity and elegance. Yeah That's exactly right. And and you know, I I try to avoid saying needless complexity though That's certainly a thing needless complexity exists. There is such a thing as needless complexity bad complexity In the same way simplification isn't in and of itself. Good complexity isn't in and of itself bad I talked at the beginning why I think there should be complex armies that have very johnny-ish type techy interactions because there needs to be things for You know, Benjamin and others like him other weirdos like him, right? Who who really love that kind of interaction I believe that That though that should exist right that that stuff should exist It shouldn't ultimately be the most competitive choice But that type of stuff should always exist And I don't think we want to over extrapolate from what is basically one data point of the first two books To suddenly say that oh anybody techie is going to be gone And we're just going to destroy all of that. I just I don't buy that for a minute I think the trend overall will be toward uh Trying to reduce things that that are setting like that are needlessly complex because there is certainly a subset of complexity that is that And then there's going to be some stuff that they keep but I hope they design it better like I hope they use this opportunity to Create actual interesting choice mechanisms in those things. That would be our best case scenario right so That that's how I that's what I hope to see but we'll see time time will tell okay And you know, ultimately we're always going to be burdened with the fact that Uh and bone splitters are a good example of this where you have lots of units that are duplicative with other Units that exist. I mean stormcast is the ultimate example of this right where it's like We made so many of the same thing and now we got to try to figure out how to make them all different useful You know get into an army that has seven units. That's what I'm saying Like there's where you want to live because they can they can figure out how to keep all of those distinct Okay Yeah All right gentlemen is the opposite is that's only 10 that's only 10 is a 10 or 12 10 more scrolls in there It's it's not that many it's just unfortunately. They're all very similar Like there's a lot of very similar stuff to each other, right? You've got like these orc boys or the more boys or these dudes on pigs or the other crazier dudes on pigs It's like, you know Right like some they got themselves into the same situation in a very small number of units Like your perfect world would be you'd redesign that line Right and keep the good stuff collapse things down and add more crazy savage or goodness like that would be the right world to go um But you know anytime I you talk about Anytime you talk about taking anything away from people even if you're going to add twice as much That's not going to be a happy day, right people just immediately like the the negativity bias comes out hard, right? So yeah, yeah Yeah, okay Uh, cool. Well before we get into this Uh, don't forget to hit that like button subscribe if you haven't already hit all those buttons as it says up there in the corner Buttons are fun. So hit like uh, if you liked my wife interrupting us with dogs Hit like for dogs the dogs will know that you hit like and they'll be very thankful and be better dogs good. They'll be good dogs All right gentlemen Shall we crack on let's get into the let's get into the meat of this. Okay Just time stamping this out All right, let's do allegiance And all that related non-sensory Okay Uh All right, so Cruel boys allegiances. Um, they have sub factions great. They work like the new sub factions. We talked about that before Venom encrusted weapons. We've all known what this is the important part to remember here is that it's only cruel boys oryx That will be relevant For various models. Uh on a sixth their damage characteristic becomes straight mortal wounds This does not apply to mounts unless stated otherwise. There are a few scrolls that say that Uh, you've got the cruel boys war which um, you can call Uh in the combat phase when you pick a friendly cruel boys general to fight You can say they're calling the war and if you do so you pick two other friendly cruel boys units Holy within 18 18 inches of that general If not yet fought in that combat phase that general and those units you picked can fight in one after the other In order of your choice. So basically letting you jump the order. So you're even faster than double picking elves You get three picks once a game. So take that lrl Uh, and then you've got your whole dirty tricks section So there are four different dirty tricks noisy racket lethal surprise disappear and act uncovered in mud I honestly love all these like we talk about flavor. Now these have some flavor. I don't love all of the Mechanics on all these. There's a little too much rolling for rolling that I was talking about But the idea here is good Some of these could just be more straightforward like I would have given these if I was the developer These would have got another pass from me. So there is still a bit of like silly complexity in here for no reason But conceptually these are awesome Uh, Benjamin, what do you like amongst these? What's what's your what's your picks noisy racket lethal surprise disappear and act covered in mud? What do you like? Well, first, I've got to give a shout out To the most important aspect of this rule The bit that excites me the most is the timing of it. Yes, it's just agree Beautiful. Yeah, if it was before the game if it was on a list Even and I think in previous Iterations of different books. We've had things like this and you'd have to decide it on the list But there's so little in the game that lets you Adapt to your opponent On the table and even the things that we used to have something like the battle mage used to have the The eight spells that you could you were able to choose at the beginning of the game But then it got turned that you had to change it on the list Like I love rules that allow you to adapt to your opponent and uh in in real time Um And I think the fact that it is after not only is it after turns have been like tables have been decided Uh Deployments been done. It's even after You know, uh, who has chosen the first turn or not. So you know exactly You know everything you've got the whole you've got the whole map You've got the everything that you need to know about the board So before you you know before you're even choosing any of it's in everything And I think that's what makes this such a fantastic battle trait for me. Um I think of like of the four I think I think disappearing act is my favorite because twice um the way you write your lists Um, and I think we'll get into it a little bit because I've seen a little I've seen quite a few people on twitter. Um, who have been afraid of the the sort of big yellows bolt boys Uh alpha strike, which doesn't exist And we'll get into it when we get into the rules, but it doesn't exist There is there is no such thing But there are there are potential alpha strikes that you can do but it's with it's with monsters And I think disappearing act ties so well into that It's something that you really really consider in in list writing and it's just you know, like being able to pick up and delete a screen and then You know sneaky deploy a monster double move another monster in the hero phase use the spell use the mount trait Uh, you know, you can get three monsters up there in their face remove all their screens Use your big wall get them all to fight three times like that is that's what I like about list is you know layering I think like layering is on top of each other and I think so that's that's definitely my standout But man, I love it that all of them I think have options apart from the other the the other one needs to be Not within my not within one of an objective. It's that's too easy. Yeah, that came up last night Yeah, he told me I was like, so what's your range on that and one inch like That can't be right check double check that Yeah, that's that that yeah Yeah, because it's too easy to just not ever go within one inch of the objective. Yeah, never trigger it. Yeah Which might might be a little bit more difficult it with with terrain pieces Um But with the objective you can you can claim the objective without standing with it one an inch of isn't it? Apart from if you're a krakenita the only thing I suppose you want to kick it Right, right. But yeah, I just I absolutely love it. I think it's one of my favorite battle traits Ever I think I love it. Yeah, it's I completely agree and and your point about the the reactionary capability of it Means that like yes, some of these are only good in certain circumstances. Okay, we all agree on that But that's fine because you don't need to pre-assign it So when you're in those certain circumstances, you can make that choice, right? Like if you think you're going to get alphaed Buy something that's by a lot of big things that are coming to you You can just go for like the default Sort of noisy racket and give the entire enemy army neg one to wound an extremely powerful debuff Right And just like know that you are going to be in a much better position to survive whatever that alpha is Right if they've out dropped you and they've and they've taken the first turn And it's not hard to read the tea leaves at that point as to what they're going to do, right? Um Lethal surprise I agree is kind of the one that I like the least because of the one inch It's all it's like it's too much rolling for rolling as well It's like roll three dice and then on a four up Then you pick one for each of them and then it's on two up and then it's d6 mortals So great sometimes it's going to be like one or two. Yay You know, it's just not enough. It should have been more set in what it does Um, I think disappear and act as amazing against certain armies, you know, you got like Units of 10 pinks. You're just taking off the table amazing fantastic. Love it, you know All that kind of stuff. You're right pulling chaff units Right like oh, you've got a bunch of pre, you know pre game moving chaff. No, you don't buy You know, I mean pulling. Yeah, so many armies pulling techless Like going through the list It We'll get in this with each army, but it seems I mean so many armies right now It seems like you want to be low drop and ideally just one drop in 3.0 And just that chance to give your opponent first and then they lose teclis or negash Well, you can't pull the big unit off Oh, you can't no, you can it has to be a tiny unit Oh, okay. Yeah, because you have to roll greater than the units of wound. Oh, gotcha. Okay. Yeah, right I missed that part. Okay. No, you're fine. It's all good. Um, it can't be reinforcement. It can't be like a unit 30 cents Yeah, okay, so it's it's perfect for killing chaff units things like untamed beasts people like to you know, pre move chaff you with Um units of 10 pinks, right all that kind of stuff Min units of even like min units of weird glass canony shooters like Flamers or something, you know is a great Pick because they're they're only like two wounds each So it's not that hard to roll a three up and pull the unit off the table But that kind of stuff is what it really excels at right? Yes, it can't be reinforced But there's there's lots and lots and lots of units that you just Getting rid of one to two of them off the table because that's going to be your sort of modal outcome on three dice Looking for four pluses is you'll get one to two um You think a lot of the armies that are using um Min battle line and yeah, yeah, you playing a You're playing something power of numbers, you know, and you just you just delete two Maybe even if you roll heart and delete all three of their their battle line And then they're just off the board and get up there and then claim the objectives Uh, and then they and then they can't deploy, you know, you Stuff you run across the board claim their objectives battle line and they can't deploy in their own deployment zone No, there's so much interruption you can do with that, you know that the I'd net deepkin are running a lot of three times ishaling guarders as their only true. Yeah, sure Don't hold them you get into the meat behind it. You stop things like forgetting forgotten nightmares I think it's just one of those rules of the Use you're gonna you're gonna find that you get out of it And if they show up enough, you know percentage wise at tournaments, then they'll potentially impact list building You know as you're pointing out like lumina also comes to mind where you'll often see just you know Maybe two by ten wardens. Sure. Maybe three by ten wardens and Yeah, I mean that that might have to change if they're able to just remove them I know lumina they're often one drop or two drop as well But you know, potentially you get alpha didn't get those sentinels off the board, you know, like you you know Super sneaky sneaking the asthma just the combo that you can do getting monsters in particular up in the opponent space that you mentioned Yeah, it's there's so many implications potentially to this 100 it was the one that yeah And and if you rolled all three like in the time where I get all three I'd probably pull two units like two one wound units or something like that when I'm using it, you know And then I'll take the roll with the buff hero the five wound buff hero Right, like I'll take the roll because you got to roll greater in the wounds characteristic Like if I'm pulling off two units and marauders or some untamed beasts and and marauders or unit cast raiders or something And I've already gotten rid of both of those and then I've got that cast sorcerer lord hanging out I'll roll it if it's my third roll I'll throw a dice and let's see if I can get the six and get rid of your cast sorcerer lord So your first turn you have no buffs like I love that You know, what a what a fantastic play when that happens like I already got the meat I needed to get out of the way now. Let's see if I can get this boy. Let's go for the big bonus, right? I think four up is the right number as opposed to say three up and No It should be a three up, but you know, here we are Yeah Yeah, that's same reasonable Benjamin three dice three up. Do you think there would be a significant power differential between that and three dice four up Uh, I don't think significant. No, it wouldn't be significant enough. I don't think no I mean, yeah, like three three times four ups. You you run the risk of Not rolling anything. Yeah, right It feels like yeah, it should probably be a three out With with the other with the other governor switches on here, it should be Three out because there's already like you can't be a reinforced unit. You have to roll over their wounds characteristic Like there's a lot already going on And so it should it should just be three up. Yes a hundred percent Absolutely slam dunk a rune like so that way your statistical modal outcomes you get two out of three right Yeah Okay, and then covered in mud is kind of obvious. I mean, you know Can do what it says on the 10 that can help you against character on shoot cat, you know name your non-syntinal Shooting output armies. Yep. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, I think interestingly as well it is It is if they are in terrain at any point as well, which kind of a They can they don't it doesn't have to be terrain in your deployment zone doesn't have You start in terrain so you can get so you can move the you can move things up the board and get them into terrain Central and and then, you know, like they can still be out of sight and that lasts for the whole game Once you've chosen your unit any time it's in terrain. It's not visible. So there will be uses for that beyond You know just hiding You know hiding some of your units from from shooting Buddy this play the spoilers knows how good that can be, you know to spoilers with slaves of darkness Yeah, with their ability to yeah block line of sight. Yeah Yep. Yeah, absolutely. It's a standard. Is it one of the standard spells? It's cast on like Seven or an eight, isn't it? I think one one of the universal Spells is oh, yeah ghost ghost mess. I think ghost mess. Yeah. Yeah And it's a high casting value. So it's obviously a high value ability. Um, and just yeah being able to, you know, pop that on You know a unit that can just benefit that from that anytime it's in terrain It can move from from terrain to terrain, you know, like if you've got Especially you've got terrain pieces big enough to hide six or nine bulb boys in it And they can just jump around from piece to piece. I think One will get a lot of use as well I I'm excited for people to um to like You know effectively like speed paint a model just a little bit like just get some basic color on there But they don't worry about it being accurate Literally just slapping it on the color on the model in a few seconds And then just taking like some uh, some streaking grime or some enamel mud or something like that and just All over the model and be like look, I'm just modeling out my covered in mud. Okay. It's it's fine There are three colors on there. They're just covered by the mud All right, let's keep moving Uh, all right, let's talk about the command traits and artifacts Uh, so uh our Kill a boss snatch a boss or break a boss We've got this general can retreat and charge If this general is on the battlefield at that which is I'm sorry slippery scumbag We've got super sneaky, which we've already mentioned a few times If this general is on the battlefield at the start of the first battle round before determining who has the first turn You could pick one friendly cruel boys unit and set it up again anywhere on the battlefield Nine inches away from enemy units very a lot a lot of potential there Uh, and then ego maniac if this general is within three inches of another friendly unit Roll a dice before you allocate a wound or mortal wound To this general instead of making a war role for this general on a four plus pick one of their friendly unit within three Inches of this general that wound is allocated to that unit. So effectively a bodyguard thing uh Is supus like I like slippery scumbag and I like super sneaky is my honest answer. I like both of them What what what's your what's your guys's take? That's the only two that you would take I don't I don't I don't know Maybe maybe some the other one it would be there's maybe there's some value in having two big monsters one with amulet of destiny one with uh ego maniac But I think super sneaky is going to be almost always the one the majority of people go to I guess it's again. It's a it's a decision that you make before you even start writing the list I think it is yeah command trait um But I mean that said I think the snatcher boss is he's the standout monster for me and Having retreat and charge on him could be really useful because of his his buff aura. You don't want you kind of don't want him to be Uh, you know, it's it's a 12 inches. It's a 12 inch bubble I think and it gives Venom and weapons an extra more wound Uh, when they when they roll that on sixes. So you don't you know, you wouldn't you might find Times that he's stuck in a combat somewhere only giving that to himself And maybe one of the unit and being able to retreat and charge out get him into more favorable position puts that buff out onto On more units The math is pretty good on him in terms of point per damage that you can get out of that unit at like what 315 I think The non-named one. So yeah, you definitely want him Correct. Yeah, he's a Yeah, legitimately good war scroll that is I think or it's For its utility and just for its standalone standalone power as well. Yeah So, yeah, I could see some use I could see some use from that one from from slippery scumbag But I think super sneaky is is is going to be the go-to and it's going to be the it's going to be the consideration when your writing lists to to go to events The question and answer phase of of writing lists like do I have answers to this? Am I am I going to play cruel boys? You're going to consider they can potentially put something right in my face all the time So regardless of whether you take it or not people will be will be considering that as part of the The sort of stock that that you'll find for cool boys. I think And your nine shots are going to burn the world down on your alpha strike. I love it Obviously, we'll get there. We'll get there All right artifacts I biter ash It's a very random effect for potentially neg one to hit for either the round or the rest of the game It's the sort of artifact I don't really love because I I don't love things that have a 33 chance to do nothing once a game Like I don't for like the payoff being not a massive effect I don't mind a chance to do nothing if the effect feels like really really big But like just one unit getting neg one to hit. It's like It doesn't feel like enough to pay off the The cost there of like, oh, I spent my whole orderly artifact on nothing Morcs eye pebble once we're about at the start of the enemy shooting phase You can say the bear will rub morcs eye pebble if you do so the bear And all friendly units wholly within 12 inches the bearer have a ward of five plus until the start of the next phase I quite like this. I think this is a darn good artifact, especially if combined with covered in mud To like really create problems for enemy shooting armies, right like big time where Some of your units aren't even targetable. The rest of them are near the boss And in this one round where you really need to break them. Oh, guess what? Oops Sorry, we've all got a five up word against shooting and like five up word will go a long way To stop a lot of damage. It's it's a good shape. I just like, yeah Because that's on all of those units so that can be like a lot of wounds suddenly inheriting that five up word, right? If you can find the space for the mark knob, I think it's like 90 95 points Good could be a good bearer for this. Sure because he's already got a five up spell ignore bubble Five up. Yeah, it spells a little spells. Yeah Yep He was he was in my list with with with that. Exactly. It's the perfect guy for it. Definitely. Yeah Uh And then beast kill a slop once for battle to start the combat phase You can pick one enemy monster within three inches of the bearer and roll a dice on a one Nothing happens on a two through five d6 mortals on a six 2d6 mortals I like this one better than the i-biter ash because at least one less chance to do nothing And two at least you've got some kind of chance for like 2d6 mortal wounds, which is a very exciting role So on the just random fun artifact This is actually the one I like like if you're in for random fun This is my random fun pick Okay Because 2d6 mortal wounds is super fun. Like I don't know. I don't care what you say. That's a lot of potential mortal wounds Now sure oftentimes you're going to roll like a three. That's going to be my experience with it But man that time you roll like a 10 or 11 here Boom You're dead Got you with the slop got you with the slop pot Uh And then spiker seeds once per battle after an enemy unit finishes Like I spiker seeds are legit also interesting as a potential anti sort of Uh melee force, you know, but I mean hordes aren't as Uh prevalent right now. They're still around but they're not as prevalent In seasons in the future as this advances as the game advances Like if we if we go away from monster season and get into like horde season or something, you know Uh in future ghp spiker seeds can be it's good its value will increase Once for battle after an enemy unit finishes the charge move within six inches of the bearer I like that it's within six because they don't actually have to charge you You can just kind of toss it over there over the line Um, you can throw the spiker seeds if you do so roll a die for each model in that enemy unit for each five plus That enemy suffers one mortal wound. So cool. Nice little No, please go ahead. It's crowned wasn't there from the old uh The old malign source of your sensory yeah one artifact that did something like that was just really really impactful really really good Fortunately, it was definitely better because you could control it. You could charge And then do it. Yes. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, that is. Yeah, that does that does make it That does swing the tile Yeah, I can't remember which one I called but you're right I mean that was a bit of a hidden gem and we didn't see that one played all that much But it it definitely can have impact. Yeah, it's another tool in your toolbox And what I look about the that these these artifacts actually is that they're all They're all once per battle as well. I think if if you go in once per battle Roots for artifacts They do need to be a little bit more impactful than and say number one and number three there I buy a ration and beast killer slop um, but I think what ios Three has moved us towards more is it's a game much more of resource management And so I think this this plays into that really nicely. Uh, and you know, like the The players who are Going to be good at resource management are going to are going to get more use out of these because they're going to, you know It's resource management is all about not blowing You know, all of your resources in the first two turns. So it's about, you know, saving them for Exact and appropriate times. I think that's that's why I like artifacts like this in this edition. I think Um, I'd like to see more more of them. I'd like to see them a bit more impactful. I think more oxide pebble Is a really good is a really good example of that. That's super impactful if you use it at the right time. Yep Um, and so it it's going to reward people who are able to manage their resources A little better. So yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah, uh, similar thoughts I think this fails the usefulness test principle that we talked about earlier in terms of you're reducing simplicity You've got to increase your utility and they have not sufficiently done that here. They're, you know You can have four artifacts and two of them be fairly, you know Untouchable like yeah, so sure Okay, uh Iron jaws battle traits. We're going to go through all the battle traits and stuff obviously then we'll we'll go through So then we'll get to the schools. We're not going to break it down army by army. We'll do the scrolls in order Okay, iron jaws battle traits you get clans Spoilers we're all blood toofs now if you're not playing blood toofs get into it Uh, oh, I'm gonna I'm gonna go hard on this one. I will I will stand by this. I will die on this hill, tyler Here we go Once per battle at the start of your chart Who's richer, you know, like Bill Gates? Sure. Yeah Yes Let us all bathe in our fantastic piles of gold. Yes. All right, the iron jaws wall Truly my favorite wall of all the walls Once for battle to start of the charge phase You can pick one friendly iron jaws general in the battlefield and say they are calling the wall Until the end of that turn add one to charge rolls for iron jaws units and improve the ren characteristic of melee weapons for iron jaws units by one Holy crap Yeah, there we go. Oh I love it. Oh Yeah, that's my wall, baby. I'm in for that Uh, and no, I don't think blood toofs is actually the auto include just a reference what autumn lotus just said It's like as tyler just said, he's gonna fight me. I honestly, they're all three of these are quite compelling Um, I'm just saying blood toofs is the way to go because I'm being I'm planting a flag because I knew tyler didn't think so Uh Mighty destroyers, uh, it lost a little bit. It's it's still basically what it used to do, but it lost a notable ability Uh, if you're outside of when you use it if you uh, if you're outside of 12 you move If you're inside of 12 you charge if you're in combat you pile in but no fight So no hero phase fighting anymore Uh, still an incredibly good ability and it gets even better when we get into the scrolls spoiler alert mega bosses on maw crusher can issue This command ability to three people at the same time and mega bosses on foot can issue this command ability to two people At the same time like two different units can receive it or three different units can receive it unbelievably powerful for for your movement Uh, even good by the way, even the pilot one, which I think people are the saddest about I found to be really good I was using it just like I was using it just to flow around people And and threaten deeper pile onto objectives, you know, just like all sorts of stuff Just getting an extra three inches of movement out of your people I'm having have you played any games against the sloppity ballpiper yet? Oh Oh, no, but I've seen some bad reports where yeah, he allows your punnett have a really good time I've shut down entire armies for four or five turns with that one model so that's the so iron jaws are blessed to have the ability to pile in there because Yeah, I mean the the the uses of sloppity ballpiper just because like on paper It's completely different from how it plays on the on the game So having some having a way around that if we see more and more nerg on the way around that Is going to be worth its weight in gold 100% agree 100% agree By the way, your hero phase piling in gets you around sloppity Your hero phase charging gets you around unleash hell and other similar types abilities And your hero phase movement is just um a do a really good like So yeah, and and the movement was always the thing The movement was always the thing that that people use might destroys for anyway You didn't get a lot of use out of the fighting in the combat phase. Anyway, we did you and You know, because everybody was dead after you hit him Everyone was dead That's the whole army was designed to that you'd smash an ambassador is the next leading ability We'll get to it signed around killing the unit So you're often never going to be in combat with it anyway, you know, so right? I don't think it's a huge loss Really, yeah, I agree using it for movement. Yep. Now you can move three unit at once instead of one So it's it's a net gain. I I cannot explain how much better that is Like I would set that loss of fight in the hero phase But now I get to have three units move is like such a ridiculously good trade Right in into this like I am all about it all about it It's madness the amount of repositioning on your army you get now. Yeah, you're fine. You're not a vegman Um Like it's wow. I have never felt like you know, tyler. I'm obsessed with movement Uh, and I think movement wins games and I have never felt more mobile than I did playing this now, right? It's like good lord. I'm everywhere. I want to be Right I was just gonna say I mean you kind of hit it on it But the the pinning potential is real with the pylon in the hero phase I mean folks definitely should not sleep on that particularly when you're doing with pigs and those big bases You know, you're often that might open up pinning a hero Uh, just getting within three inches of something and there's so much potential with that with that pylon in the hero phase So yeah, it's it's amazing Yeah, I you know, I saw megaboss mike is making a comment in there of of like he said Celebrity is a good example of why I g need to ally, you know cruel boys shooting, but they can't Let's just I want to just deviate from what we're talking about We're just one second to say is it strange that the only way to bring these together Is in a full-on big war army that you can't ally the other clans In at all do you like that design or not like that design? What do you think? Like the fact that iron jaws can't treat cruel boys as an allied army Yeah, I'm of two minds about it. I mean as as usual with with me on things like Get it. It's strange I mean, you would think that you could we do have big wall though My bias is iron jaws. Obviously I really like that iron jaws And not ally in shooting Because it cannot create a natural governor switch on the army is what you're saying. Yes Yes, it it constrains the space in a healthy way, which means that they needed to lean into what the army does well mobility Killing things etc. And that's absolutely what they did for the most part. So, you know, like I'm less I'm we're more competitive now against shooting. So we don't need to have have shooting in our army Yeah, I like that piece of it, but that's one example. There's probably counter examples of negatives in that in that regard Yeah, I mean Benjamin, I want to get your thoughts too, but I mean, there's a sort of an obvious double-edged sword here Right, which is on one side it constrains the armies cleanly and lets them balance them more like the individual forces more succinctly and they they can live in a space and do a thing very well But then they have the natural constraints on there, right? And you kind of know what you're going to get Fine. I I agree that that can be a positive But the Like it is constraining the space is actually generally a good thing because it does make it easier to to balance to understand To write points around and all that kind of thing But at the same time it also has this problem of being weirdly unintuitive, right where it feels from from a versimilitude perspective in the world It feels like yeah, of course, they could just ally in with some of those guys They're all greenskins, right? If they can get together a big wall, it makes sense That's a few less of them Can get together and be an ally, right? There's sort of a there's almost like a Wait, what? That doesn't make any sense feeling to it, right? Those two things I feel are kind of bouncing up against each other here Right because yeah, so it's it's tough. Benjamin any any other thoughts on that one? um Yeah, I mean it's definitely kind of intuitive. I think when all the When all the Sort of review shows were coming out last week That was the one question that was floating around that no one could seem to get the answer to so every like I was Already starting to write lists bone splitters list and and what some cool boys in there You know, it made sense and so my initial reaction is to My initial reaction to that was kind of like no, I don't like this Why why wouldn't you they'd be able to do that? But I think the more I think about it the more, you know for reasons that Some of the reasons you guys have just outlined there I think I think it's one of those things that actually the more I think about it the more I'll come around to it It's more of just like a reaction because you kind of want to You know, you think about an iron jaws list and putting six bolt boys in there Or things like sloppity as they said in the chat and you know like a few small pieces You're like, yeah, you want to you want to do that. No, get out get away We don't need that. Yeah. Yeah When you think about you like no, it doesn't it doesn't need it and it goes against the the army play style It creates anti synergy. Like, yeah, it's it's not it's It's not necessary. I think I think yeah as as as I digest the book more Keep your soul pure folks Yeah, yeah, yeah All right back to it. It's interesting discussion. I think there's there's definitely there's definitely interesting trade-offs there to be made I'm not sure I know what the right answer is I need to really think about it because I see both sides of the argument very very strongly um, okay Because it does feel like they could have been even coalition units or something Right or something like that Like there were options there. They didn't explore and it feels strange to me And I don't know how to feel about it Is my honest answer and I get that it runs counter to the grain sort of it runs counter to the established Status quo what we'd expect we got allies four inch point limits. Why can't they just be allies? Obviously, they can't be like I get that. Yeah. Yeah, and there's a built-in cost in the audio So like, you know, I don't know And then smash in and bash in it's still basically what it was and it's great. So yep, if you kill something Then you get to keep fighting so keep killing things and you get to keep fighting So Yep, good stuff. Like it's still amazing Smashing in bath that bashing remains amazing So what's your what's your the most that you've ever done? I mean my whole army Absolutely. We're measuring we're measuring something here Benjamin. Sure. I mean, it's easily my whole army Yes, everything that was fighting like everything that was fighting. I don't know probably five six units at least Yeah, I mean like I like I've brought the whole line into somebody picked all the right units all the right buffs Whammo blammo, right? Like you can if you set it up right you can just explode the enemy army So, yes One thing gets you can I just ask I'm just trying to read it now quickly But you guys might just have the answers if we circle back to mighty destroyers. Can you give? Three different orders or do you have to give the same order? It you can all you're doing is you're giving them mighty destroyers And then the way they receive it is based on what they do is based on their positioning So it doesn't have anything to do with it. Yeah So like if you give it you give three different people mighty destroyers and then mighty destroyers triggers a check Of like what is their location visa be the enemy and then they act accordingly? Right. Yes. So yes, that's amazing. Yeah, it's great. So like this unit just full moves This unit charges this unit piles in. Yep, great because that happened to be the ranges they were at, right? So, yeah, yeah, yeah That that means you'll get even more use out of piling one then because you can just Mighty destroyers the two units that want to run off and do other things and then just You've got one spare throw it onto the unit do a little cheeky piling and Yep Okay. Yeah, I mean smashing right. Yeah, it's still good still good. All right iron jaws command traits Um, so there's probably one thing we're going to talk about here, but maybe two we'll see we'll see Okay So hulking brute after you pick this general and make a charge move You can pick one enemy unit within one inch and roll a die on a two plus that enemy unit suffers d three mortal wounds So it basically gives you an extra impact hit the only way this is ever going This would ever be taken is if you were going all in on some kind of crazy Like mortal wounds on the impact strategy Right It's a funny strategy where you can get up to like d six plus d three plus, you know, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh plus D six plus d three plus three. Yeah, that's it's like I haven't I haven't looked at the order in which they happen yet though because with with with If you can choose the order specifically you could Do that then do bulk destructive bulk So you could you could potentially do 2d3 damage before you do bulk and do bulk so that you kill the thing and then move Yeah, I think it's a simultaneous effect. Well, that when we get to the war scroll But we'll have to do that out. I think if you can do that if you could potentially trigger that And the mount trait one first and then do destructive bulk so that you could kill the unit so that you could then move on Again and and do it Do it to another unit then I think that could have that could have some use for me I think that could be interesting. I mean, it's more cute than anything But yeah, it's yes, you can stack them in the order you want. Go ahead because of it Well, actually, so it's that's what we're talking about. We'll get into it. So after this journal makes a charge move for hulking brutes, but then to start the bulk is It's a it's a monstrous activity. So it's at the end of the charge phase. Yeah The end of charge phase. Yeah, you do your d3 first. I shouldn't have said in the order I should have said this one happens first. That's what I meant Yes, okay. And then what's and then the mount trait is what just when you make a charge as well Oh, no, the mount trait one is just on stomp, isn't it? Yes when you make the stomp. Yeah, you do d6 Exactly d6 Okay, so uh mega bossy, I mean it's sort of the obvious smooth brainest one, but it's also pretty good This general can issue mighty destroyers command even if it has already been issued by another friendly model in the same phase Obviously truly amazing if you're running double maw crusher, then that means six units in a single phase can benefit from mighty destroyers Truly incredible for getting your army moving piling in charging doing anything that you want Uh So, you know, there you go Another play is so for example The teleport spell let's say you teleport 10 brutes And way across the battlefield like in the enemy's backfield They then use mighty destroyers and they're the only one in range You know, they give themselves mighty destroyers, but they're then Out of range for the cabbage to give it to them Sure, but they just do it on themselves. Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's do it on themselves Yeah, then the cabbage does it for three others like Yeah, this opens up combos like that particularly with the teleport spell that may not otherwise be there just in terms of positioning With with mighty destroyers, etc with everything being orange around the cabbage. So yeah, yeah Uh, yeah, it's it's real strong. You're around as well, doesn't it that this what's that? It gets you around redeployed really easy ways to get around redeployed Just move from the hearing place. Yeah, which is really big. Yeah, it really applies Massage, isn't it? Yeah Yep, uh, again. Yeah, let's like no, no, I'll just uh, you know for for especially for units like pigs in the Mawcrush who can do that kind of movement, you know They can just get up to three inches away from you quite easily in the hero phase because they start outside of 12, right? and then just stop They didn't move in phase. They don't move and hence there's no opportunity to redeploy away from them, right? So Yeah, it's it's super strong. Yeah I should state that even with a brute you can start at, you know, 12.1 inches away Move four inches forward be at eight and then if you call the wall that turn You're still charging on seven if you didn't move again, right and they can't redeploy away from you Right. So even with your basic brutes, you can sometimes pull the same trick even though they're slow So yep And then finally mighty wall leader if this general cause an iron jaws wall You can reroll charge rolls for friendly iron jaws units fully within 12 of them until the end of that turn Um, not a terrible ability It's just hard to compare it to the other two Which I actually do think both have like a list that I could that I would put them in and build toward This one's good, but at the same time It's like Eh, you know, we're already pretty good at charging It's fine when we need to be and you can kind of can cover my one unit I really need to get in there Rerolls of charges are generally good. This is not a bad ability at all Um, I think it's just one of those things that like I just see the use of the other two Right, right. So yeah, just kind of like what you said like the army is generally going to be where it needs to be Yeah, redeploys potentially a thing but you your bases are usually covered by just needing one charge You know, maybe it's the teleport you need to reroll because you're seven eight or nine away Yeah, and I mean we have get them beat much more reliably now as well Yes, um, you know the like and that's a game changer the game changer of the way they changed to get them beat Uh, because again, that was another thing. I was just using like crazy My my little boy couldn't keep his sticks moving fast enough with all the get them beat. I was throwing on people Um, all right. So touched by the wall iron jaws wizard only Which does that only mean the shaman? No, it does not it also means mega boss on maw crushers who happen to be wielding an arcane tome So, uh, Before attempting to cast a spell with this general You must pick a unit within six inches of them that unit suffers d3 mortal wounds But you can add the number of mortal wounds caused to that unit to the casting or all the spell If you pick this general to suffer the mortal wounds, they are slain by one of those wounds Uh, the spell is not successfully cast So obviously the play here would be to take one of the fairly hard to get but highly impactful buffs something like the plus Wonder wound will come to in a little while And then bring your mega boss forward Hit the enemy unit within six inches of them for d3 mortals Then use that as a bonus on his own cast above himself or another unit within range Yeah, I hadn't I hadn't clocked that the arcane tome taking that that's great Yeah, shout out to our friend Constantino. So he was the first one of our threats to at least Vence that was the first time I had seen it. Yeah, I I had I hadn't put it together I had thought yeah, you could do that, but I hadn't really thought about the implications I was like, oh, but what are you going to do with that spell? And then I Then he walked through it and I was like, no, no, he's right. He was right I had underrated this Constantino's nailed it. Yes Absolutely Yeah, leave it to a corn player to find the the tricky synergies That means that you just a big wall around me Because you can just cast that spell every turn Wow, I mean not not every turn. It's not guaranteed but getting that spell off is gonna be a lot easier And that with all our attack, then you just you just call the big one religions. Welcome to twos and twos, baby Yeah, it's it's hard man. And you can use, you know, faster like one thing I did it in one of my first test games with the new book was Use faston to get out of imbine range Ah Ask the spell With, you know, plus it plus two in that situation, but yeah big wall potentially plus three And then mighty destroyers, of course And and then a move And yeah, and so you could potentially deliver your bashing lads plus one wound bubble Where you need it with fat the combo of faston The mighty destroyers and then your regular move, you know potentially Yeah There's there's a number of tricks. I mean teleport spell is a great option with that Including in a big wall that makes the teleport a lot more reliable And yeah, maybe we could spend, you know, 10 minutes on the potential combos and implications of uptouch by wall But it's I think it's really big Yeah, it's it's such an interesting ability Like the Because of who it can go on Because of the way it interacts with things like faston mighty destroyers the teleport and and all these things to give you a just Plus d3 to cast is a pretty good bonus to cast Right and that that plus one to wound spell is so potent in this army and you want it But it's often hard to get at Because of its cast value as we'll talk about but like suddenly it's in reach to where you've got a reasonable chance of getting it off Right. Yeah, so I mean it's got to be said, of course With the fact you can put flaming weapons On the mighty fist and tail for the cabbage itself And so now with violent fury you're looking at five damage On those eight attacks. Yeah, that's probably two isn't three is at least That's pretty wild. It's pretty great. Yeah, and we can even get you can even just get it Get get it the mega boss in range of an enemy unit. So you don't have that on your own unit Correct. Yeah, you're just it's just a free d3 models of some enemy unit. Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah Which is a good enough eye fact in itself almost really right right because it's just every round you're doing it Yeah, you just be near the guy take a d3 mortals, right? Yeah, it's not bad. You can just start pinging off heroes and stuff um So, yeah, uh, and then deboss is horde Uh, so we lost metal ripper Let us all pour out our drinks take a moment to lament the loss of metal ripper Don't worry though. We can still get there with the rend, but it is sad uh Skipped of a master of the weird you can pick one extra spell for the general that was the other Champion of the weirds command trade for iron jaws wizard But I mean you're if you're taking that you're gonna take touch by the wall. No, I didn't skip it Yeah, that's fair I just didn't talk about it because it's who cares. It's not relevant That is the definition of throwing good money after bad right there like that is no no bad wrong incorrect Okay, so, um The uh The artifacts armor of gork this I don't know what to do with this artifact. Okay The bearer is a ward of six plus and plus one to hit with melee weapons. Okay Good abilities. I like six upwards. I like plus one to hit all the time. It's pretty sweet However, you must have tracked two from the bearer's move characteristic and the bearer cannot run All right Now I like speed I like mobility On a maw crusher first of all I how heavy is this armor that the maw crusher cares I don't buy it for a second Not for a second that thing flies because it scares the ground into into into getting away from it, right? um So I just don't buy it sound two inches and I'll say it's a fairly irrelevant number Like if you wanted to put this on one of your mega bosses, you certainly could On on maw crusher, it's not that big of a change to his movement He's still perfectly mobile enough between mighty destroyers and and the potential for fast and and Yada yada yada calling the wall whatever all the different things you can do But like what a ridiculous thing to just make impossible for the The foot boss to take because then his move becomes two inches like what a ridiculous drawback Why Why are you like this armor of gork? You're terrible. That is just silly A two inch move nothing like making go track looks like a speed demon right Uh, yeah, I think that full head potentially as like a third artifact if you're doing six heroes Because you're probably going to do the plus one attack You know if surely got a cabbage you do the plus one a hit all out attack on that cabbage and then do Yeah, do this on him on the foot guy with his eight attacks Yeah, I know you're right. Yeah it Things like this just frustrate me so much Because it was a cool artifact and then they're just like oh, but then also it's terrible I'm like, okay. Sure for the person. I wanted to give it to Like I just I don't understand it why they design stuff like this. It just Really, it's that heavy. It's that heavy Like come on Come on. This is like the wild riders where they were like, oh, they can take shields, but minus two movement like shut up Just stop it stop with this neg two movement thing. It's bad. It's bad design We got a winner next one up destroyer rules. All right Pick one of the bearers melee weapons once for battle at the start of the combat phase You can add three to the damage characteristic of that weapon until the end of that phase That's what I'm talking about. Uh, autumn lotus says is there any way to deep strike that boy? Yeah, because you can you can still teleport the boss around on foot even if you only have a two inch move You can still teleport him, but then you're relying on your teleport going off, which is like It's tough, um, but anyways destroyer is amazing. I love me some destroyer There's usually a round where you absolutely positively need to kill everybody in a unit And destroyer makes that happen when combined with violent fury for plus four damage Now we're talking Uh, even on the little foot guy. I like this. I actually use this on a little foot guy recently No, the foot mega boss because it's funny as all get out to me to have him jump into a unit He's only neg one rent So you want to use it on the water and that you pop this like you want to pop the wall and this But it was hilarious to me to have him swinging six damage a six damage sword around Like hey, what's up derthu? Wham! Like I just carry I need to model him with the big derthu. So yeah, yeah, he's he's a better derthu follow sequel eight attacks Yeah, threes threes twos threes minus two rents six damage 11. Yep. Yep Yeah, wow Yeah, it's again, it's about it is this once per game thing, but it's about making that right timing on the choice, right? Um, yeah, you do do your turn that you give him his birthday as well. So he's two and twos Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. This is definitely in the small rotation of artifacts that you might get That's a good one. Yep. And then the boss skewer an old favorite That's plus one to bravery for your iron jaws units while they're wholly within and neg one bravery For enemy units while they're within 12. So fine. Mm-hmm. Yep Okay, cool So, yeah on cabbages, I'm curious Well, we can talk about when you get the cabbage in terms of artifacts you put on the cabbage I think there's there's there's three three standouts amulet arcane's home and destroyer. Agreed. I mean, that's the list. Yes It's a short list, but it's the list Yeah Okay Bone split as battle traits again, they have sub factions Uh, they have war paint still it's a ward of six up. Yep Their war is once per battle at the start of the combat phase You can pick one friendly bone splitter general on the battlefield instead of they're calling the war If you do so until the end of that phase friendly bone splitters units have a ward of four plus instead of six plus Which admittedly is a super powerful war Right. Really good. Um, like that is a great war because that means one combat phase with all of your stupid wounds Because you have so many wounds in this army You are Just very resistant to damage So it's strong like when you need to hold it'll do it If that was Before the turn so that you could get that for shooting as well Yeah, that would change the dial on this whole on the whole allegiance so much Okay, that would make that would almost it would almost make that It would almost make up for everything else. I think Uh, it would you you'd skew you to a completely different type of build It would just be all about wounds and and board control and grinding Which I suppose is what they did a lot the way then but um, yeah, it's a shame that it isn't For shooting as well, but it is still incredible. Yeah I I agree. I totally agree on that I just want I just want to reinforce that like I read this and at first I read it as for the round and I was like, this is amazing and then I read it again I was like, oh wait, it's just combat, you know Yeah, and Like there's other fun things it could enable to that we'll talk about when we when we get there Um to then to the scrolls if it was for the round and I'm just I'm not sure it would like Because it be if it was just that turn I should say turns it around if it was just your turn the space of your turn or whatever, right or something Yeah, yeah fine. Yeah, not to the camera phase. That's busted, right You know, like there'd just be options But anyways because if you cool like oh neat you get it against, you know The unleash hell that happens at the end of the charge phase and you could have it for your shaman and stuff If he tries to blow somebody set up with his mask and like there would just be so many more neat interactions that could happen But anyways, we didn't go that way. So it's fine Well, I was gonna ask Benjamin At a high level like is it your guess if you're trying to go 50 or whatever You know maximize your ability to win games with bone splitters now Are is the first choice to lean into this with like an alpha, you know, low drop one drop, whatever Alpha bunker play style, you know, a lot of these missions have three objectives in the middle Or is it doing something different? And then, you know, we're kind of like trying to sequence it So you're lever you're trying to leverage this, you know Maybe you're alpha bunkering and then your opponent comes into you and then you burn it You pop this so that your opponent is not killing you in the time that they thought that they would and you're getting up on point something like that I think It could work. Yeah, but I don't like we've been chatting a lot about it in the bone splitters chat And it's not not a no, it's not something that people are building around Okay of a bonus Uh, because it because of it only being in the combat phase. I think it like yeah I think if it was whole turn then 100% you would be you would be building the lists around Around it and it would make the army You know put them up a whole tier probably Yeah, you know the bottom from from d to c maybe it could be that if you were building a list around it It's the same like I used to build the around the save stack in back then when you when you know Yeah, you could get your regular troops up to a three plus save and you'd have no retreat bone grins You know like you built that army around that and then it was it was super solid But I don't I don't think it's on its own. Um, I think I think it's yeah, it's a good boat um, but Yeah, now you wouldn't you wouldn't I don't you build towards it That's the feminine capture. Yep. Although I haven't yet. So maybe maybe there is maybe there is something in that I'll explore it for you. Yeah, okay. There we go. There we go Uh, the spirit of gorka marca if the unmodified hit roll for an attack made with a melee weapon by a friendly bone Slitter's unit that has five or more models Is six that attack scores two hits on the target instead of one So obviously that it's it's the newest version of what was an existing rule that they double tap Three three different rules. They had they used to have for that. Yes They had a two different command abilities and a spell that all gave that ability and they all used to stack Yeah, uh, so you could prop multiple and they had the they even had the little addendum that said They specifically did all proc on a six. You'd get three hits And so you don't have that you don't have to spend any resources for it anymore. It's it's it's free. It's automatic Um, but it's only it's one. It's only ever one and it's only ever on Units that don't have any rent, right? There's no there's like no ring in the army. There's just two two heroes Yep heroes. Yeah, because it has to be these big units. Yep. Exactly. Yeah Do you feel like that should have been um Do you feel like that should have been two or more Models like if they were trying to keep it away from the heroes They could have just gone two or more models Right because then big stab us would would get it too, right? Like, okay. We don't want to give the heroes all free double tap Fine But but why not just just limiting it to two or more models would do that because heroes are all singles, right? The only thing it would the only thing it would add in Would be the big stoppers. That's the only thing that it would be Which isn't a bad thing to add in here like it kind of sucks that they it's hard for them to get this thing, right? Yeah Yeah, exactly like Especially with what how reinforcements work now is yeah, I should say impossible for them to get these things They're not ever battle lines. They can only be reinforced up to four. So I should have stated Yeah, yeah, and they can only go up to four And that and that was you know, like who big stabbers were how you did damage in in bone splitters armies and rogue idle maybe but you know most Decent bone splitters list had a unit of eight or a unit of six and that's how you You know, so that was how you did damage. So I think I think it's a net loss overall Yeah, because even though you don't spend a resource for it. You could still put it and stack it on to Onto big stabbers back then so Yeah, now both hey woe and tyler in the in the in the chat said why not heroes though? I don't disagree. I like I'm trying to work within the constraints They offered right which was we're in a limited by some number of models It just feels silly that they took it away from like the cool unit that you want to be double tapping on if like If their prerogative was we can't give this to heroes. Okay, fine I guess but then like give it to the fun unit that people want to run in and do lots of big damage with right Um, so anyways, I I I agree that it should just spend six or double taps in this army Like why not like what what who cares? It's fine Like your heroes aren't yeah super killers. Anyways, it wasn't here You've got one you've got like one combat hero who Great attacks threes threes one two. That's it. Yeah, it just doesn't make sense how they've limited it So the five models just one extra Yeah, like my my perfect version of this is just kill the five or more It's just bone split as attacks on sixes double tap great next moving on like done That's how it should actually be changed All right tidalist trackers after deployment but before the first battle round begins Half the bone splitter's units in your army rounding up can move up to five inches If both players can move units before the first battle round blah blah blah. Okay five inch pre game move Good ability It's a good ability But from experience It's a much better ability when you can determine if you're going first or not. Sure, uh, with Bone split has played a premium to to have low drops and work quite easily Majority of drops were were three back then but you could easily do two And you could even do you could even do one if you wanted and and that's in every iteration of bone split as well They've always paid like 300 points for battalion in in in every every version of them the first version the second and uh That disability. Yeah, just the it's exponentially better if you could decide Who is going first? um I think now that everybody has access to about a regiment that's going to be much less likely So it does take away a little bit of the value of it Yeah, yeah Very quickly on that Benjamin What's your working sense of what you're seeing in the uk scene so far in terms of drop cap Is it a lot of one drops two drops? Yeah, like 50 percent or a battle regiment Uh, and I like I honestly think I said to speak in a Twitter about it today, but I I'm against it. I think I think the the value of low drops now has Has gone down so much since everyone has access to it and I think be Revealing your hand all at once but deploying it all at once It's such it's such a setback. I think Um I I I used to run exclusively like I'm two of my Three armies were both one drops phone splitters and scryer And I don't think I've ever played over a stick drop and now that the list I've taken this weekend is 10 drop I think it's lost. It's lost almost all value for me. I think there are certain builds that need to be in Yeah, need to be about Things like something like scryer still like like night warm fiends or something that you have to do easily Yeah, um more of the builds like that But I think too many people are taking it. So it just it often just comes down to a roll-off. So you've you've you've uh You've kind of hampered yourself from taking the other battalions, uh, which say you say you know, you're already Uh, you know denying yourself some utility there with extra artifacts extra command points Yeah hunters. Yeah Yeah, like I think I think that battle regiment is a trap massive And I think that a lot of people are still writing lists for 2.0. I think like scarring Can it see a lot of them are still written with 2.0 in mind? And I think maybe even it is a case of like People didn't have that before so now they like a lot of armies didn't have access to one to one or low drops And how that they do I think people sort of like looking at it with starry eyes sort of like oh my god Yeah, I can do this with you know With an army that I couldn't do it before and so they're taking it And not really bad like not not really sort of rating or not really um Weighing up the balance, you know, yeah balancing it out. Yeah Fair yeah, no, I A lot a lot at the moment, but I think that will will dwindle over time. That's great I'm very happy about that tangent. I think that was No, that's fine. All right, let's talk. No, that was great. Yeah, I really appreciate that There's gonna be I think a lot of movement around as people play with that back and forth I agree. I think there are some armies where you have to and some armies where people just do it because it's fun Right because they exactly said they couldn't do it before and I think honestly It should be a point of more Uh A point of more deep introspection in your list building. That's what I'll say. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I agree Uh, okay. Let's talk command traits and artifacts Uh, benjamin. I'm just gonna throw this over to you. Are there any of like what of these stand out to you? What do you like in the command traits or artifacts? If any Uh I mean glowing tattoos 100% is amazing Because it opens up the one good combo in the whole in the whole book for me Which is putting glowing tattoos on a war god prophet so that he can Have a four plus save against the mortal wounds that he does himself Staring staring staring and doing as many mortal wounds Um, which is the one funny and cute and interesting and potentially uh Powerful thing in the whole books like in the bone splits chat someone just to give you a quick example. There's a guy will Uh, we picked up on this quite quite early on and then uh, there's a few people Peter who runs plastic Plastic crack is it? Mm-hmm. Not quake everybody. Don't make that mistake Yeah I took hell for two weeks over that Yes He he dared will to take six of them To to see if we can get any value out of it and In two little groups of three And the group would go in tattoos. Um, three of them killed a mega gargant with amulet That's insane. I think he's like the dice a lot, but that is insane. That's so good Uh, I mean it's 900 points. We're running six of them. I think he's gonna take it See how it does Again, it's more cute. I think I think just one though like six six is but I think Uh One workug with the glowing tattoos is amazing because it's given him a four at board save against all of his mortal wounds That he's taken so the wet so for anyone who hasn't seen that the way it works is The same as the old workug mask is that you Roller dice take d3 mortal wounds Afterwards you roll a dice again on a three up you can do another d3 mortal wounds on a one to two It used to be that you were slain, but now he just takes d3 mortal wounds Obviously you've got a four d6. Yeah D6. Yeah, yeah Oh, sorry. Oh, it's d6. Yeah Okay, but d6 even you know average is four four or five you could potentially and then you're saving two of those So he's got six wounds So he could stick around for for easily long enough to kill a 12 wound hero with no more wound save for instance So that's that's that's the one stand out for me. I think in in the monster meta Mork's bony bits is potentially quite interesting. Again, if you're going up against something like gargantz You could have a workug who is plus six the cast Sure six to unwind um So that you know, that's that's quite cute and the Most most armies are running monsters now on they at least one or two. So you definitely can value out of that uh Yeah, I'd want to casting dispelling and combining rolls for the bear for each enemy monster within 24 inches. That's a great range It's a big old range. Yeah, exactly. Like it's it's it's a thing that if they have a lot of monsters, you're very likely to get that bonus Yeah Agreed the the only command worth Worth any note is the one that extend extends Our tireless trackers to an eight inch move But then you're restricted by the same parameters that Sort of sat down in the last with with that um But yeah, almost everything else in there is just like what why? Like even like, you know, like her instinct is unmodified hit rolls ever six causes a mortal wound uh On on you've only got one character who's fighting So that's One mortal wound, you know, like they're right. Yeah, everything else is just Milk toast really. Yep Yeah, I agree. Um, yeah, I mean, it's it's great hunter I mean, that's the choice because it's still a there's a big difference between moving out to eight inches and moving out to five inches just when you think about where oftentimes middle board Middle board objectives end up And it lets you actually pretty comfortably end up sort of positioning in a good way with those just as a pregame Kind of regardless to where you're threatening them Right at the start. So that's yeah, I agree. And yes, uh, I I too glow in tattoos and marks bony bits for my picks as well um Yeah, which I mean glow in tattoos. It also does uh stack with the With the big one, doesn't it? Yes, it does the turn that you are in combat Your your foot hero will be on a two plus board safe. Yep, which is pretty good Yeah, I mean it basically means that turn in combat that hero is immortal unless he's fighting You know, one of the few things that ignore word saves in the game. So All right Mount traits Uh, regardless of the type of orc warclans army you choose you can pick one orc warclans hero with a mount in your army to have one of the following mount traits Um, so we should state that some of these are limited to monster only but some of them are not And these are just mount traits. So if you have a guy on a mount, you can get this and all three armies Do have somebody on some kind of mount Uh, so The value of that we can argue about but it exists. So there we go Uh And to me this is really all about just a couple of these Uh, so toughen Has no value this season because you have the command ability to just fight at the top of your profile It could change in the future if you you know, if we lose that command ability in future seasons of the ghp Uh, which we will I mean we're going to but you know for right now It's a pass fast in once for battle in your hero phase. You can make a normal move Love it infinitely useful works on any kind of mount. No restriction. My god is this good Uh, like just just so good just so stupidly ridiculously good Yeah, it's the standout for me Yeah, yep, um meanen Uh monster only when you carry out the stomp monsters rampage with this model, which is how the Mall crush is destructive bulk works now. You suffer d6 mortals on a 2 plus instead of d3 meaning that your monstrous um Your monstrous rampage of stomp on your mall crush is going to do a d6 plus 3 damage If you take this mount trait, which is you know a lot D6 plus 3 immortal wounds at the end of the charge phase is not it's not bad. I checked into it turns out Pretty good Pretty good amount of mortal wounds as it turns out Uh Loudon Also another interesting one when you carry out the roar monsters rampage pick all enemy units within three inches of this model instead of one Roar is an exceedingly powerful monstrous rampage being able to potentially affect even two units with it instead of one Is really good So especially in armies that may want to be say fighting with lots of people all at once Uh, you know, I can't think of any army that might fit that description But maybe like if I was just a pick it'd be iron jaws Uh, so there you go Uh, weirden got worse in a really unfortunate way Uh, which is just this model has a ward of 4 plus against mortal wounds caused by spells and the abilities of endless spells Instead of like what everybody else gets which is just a a spell ignore on some dice I don't know why we had to make this a more restrictive worse version of the thing As opposed to just a four up spell ignore, but sure And then smelly and I don't like it all although I guess it could be interesting if you have you're just trying to protect like Some of your monster heroes that aren't charging in iron jaws terms I never I I see no value if you were talking in cruel boys or your little caster who's on a boar Sure, maybe it's nice to have neg one to hit for him since they might not be charging as much If you can just cancel it now, they can't maybe they'll let attack so Sure, but it still puts them back on the regular number instead of being on twos or whatever, right? So there's value to it, but admittedly it's less. Yeah Yeah, it's not terrible. But yeah, there's better options here. Yeah, which yeah fast and yeah I think you kind of know a fast and is amazing all around And then yeah, Mina and you can lean into if you're going for that strategy Yeah fast and mean and then loud and are my are my that I love. Yeah Yeah, I mean it's it's faster than just because of all the other utopia as well as like we were just talking about the The arcane tome wizard. Yeah Like that and as you were saying like faster than something out of online range and bringing back it destroyers There's just so much bread that that the list that it's just it just And it's got synergy with all of the factions I haven't thought about bone splitters, but certainly big wah curl boys and obviously iron jaws. Yeah fast and you get utility Out of out of it with all of those, you know super sneaky as the one with curl boys in particular Yeah, yeah Uh, so sleepy hds does point out that the four plus spell ignore is one roll per Wound right as opposed to just one roll for the whole spell which can have advantages That's a fair point, right? Like if you take six mortal wounds you get six rolls at that right? So you'll tend to ignore three whereas with the old one you were banking on ignoring all six On the on the four up. So there's a give and take to that It's I would call that a lateral move, but it is interesting. It's it like there can be situations where that's advantageous Uh, all right spells Uh, so we're gonna do the big wall battle traits. Yeah, they're at the end of this big loss. Okay. Yeah, there's the end of this Uh, okay spells Uh, lore of the weird for iron jaws wizards, uh, foot of gork Uh casting value of 10. Why? Okay, like I whatever I hate I hate that so much In a range of 18 inches if successfully cast pick one enemy unit within range visible to cast her that unit suffers D6 mortal wounds then roll a die on a one to three to sequence stops on a four plus They suffer D6 mortal wounds keep rolling until the sequence stops or the target unit is destroyed like Cute I like a bunch of mortal wounds. It's neat. I understand they're super scared about D6 mortal wound spells but it is a joke That you put this on a 10 and total eclipse exists on an eight When you think about the effect this has on the game like I will never let this die Because they just they under rate crushing utility Right, like they they consistently still continue to make the magic the gathering 1996 Fourth fifth edition mistake of like oh creatures are super dangerous. We got to up cost them all up utility like counterspell Who cares super cheap? No wrong reverse Back it's the wrong way around right like things that are horrible horrible powerful utility That are like neck one to attack to hit to wound or both and you The minus of your charge and all this crap ends up being off and on very low numbers Whereas like a thing that might do some decent mortal wounds Is on a 10 get out of here right And it's a law spell as well. So like it used to be on a wall On his And now it's now it's a spell that you have to invest in as well. You have to take Yeah, you're making a choice here, right Yeah, you're wasting an enhancement on it as well. So you just you're not gonna do it. You're never gonna Yeah, like mystic shield. Let me ask a simple question. Here's a simple question. Okay Which spell Is in the raw more powerful ignore casting values for the moment Foot of gork or mystic shield. What's the more powerful spell? Yeah, obviously mystic shield because you don't have to roll a four up to do it All right easy like no explanation. No hesitation. It's mystic shield every time twice on sunday get out of here Right because it lasts forever like just a million million years through my turn through your turn through your potential double turn And it just keeps paying dividends every time you shoot at me every time you target me Right, it's just Yeah, so the fact that that's on a five and this is on a 10 tells me they still don't understand how their own magic system works Like I don't know what else to say there right Uh, I think I think it should be an eight Should be a lot less. I don't know man a lot less a much lower number Because there's no world where this is your pick. There's no world Well, that's the problem like even at an eight. You're still probably not taking this right because you're gonna take like mighty Ed bud is like whatever who cares? Um, you're taking either the great big green hand of gork, which is a teleport Okay, and innately powerful and on a seven and more powerful than the foot of gork by far right Or you're taking bashing lads, which is on an eight, which is probably too high again Uh, but like but at least gives a whole unit plus one to wound until your next hero phase Right. Oh, that's all that's within the bubble within the bubble. Yes. You're absolutely right Like it's a big big spell, right? I'm I'm in my head It was only the mega boss out there doing it on himself from our earlier discussion and no one else was near him That's how I set the unit. But yes, you're right. I mean, it's a big old aura Um, it it maybe is worth the eight Maybe But it's a great spell Okay, and like again the ability to bash them lads off of the mega boss with the tome taking the d3 Uh command trait is pretty good Yeah, I mean that thank you. You know just real quick raxias saying at an eight I get dreaded warp gale for a d6 mortals and have to run in charges Right Yeah, and that's a worse way to spell too. No choice Built on guys that can just take bonuses to cast or stand near that that bring their own plus to cast terrain with them Right So, yeah, anyways Yeah, it's bash them lads in the big teleport, right? Yeah, it's probably a good idea that they reduce the range at the teleport. It used to be holier than 24 It's not holier than 12, you know, I think that's reasonable to reduce that a little bit But I mean teleports are really really really really really strong Yeah, like yep All right savage beast lore benjamin. What do you got for us, man? Is it just is it just glowy green tusks to have fun? Yep, so you actually have rent in this army Yeah, and then and then that one spell is kind of uh Deciding where you how you're writing your lists now like all of the lists that we've been around in the in the bone splitters is We're basically ball lists cragnoss with a bunch of balls And this this spell is what makes What basically makes that choice for you almost? Because you don't have the other end in the army only the character the only the only models They all have one rent and then and then big big stappers Do you have a couple of pips around there as we look about things like reinforcements makes them Much less useful. So this is the only way that you get access access to rent Uh in the army really but then, you know, like boards boards still do only have so, um in units of 10 is It's not, you know, it's not optimal. I don't think uh, so you so, you know, you Wasting your cast in this ball on the unit five boards. They have 10 there on fours and fours um So Even even that spell doesn't do, you know, you don't get actually that much value out in the end And especially because the you know the one Uh interest in Subfaction is ice bone, which which gives you mortal wounds on sixes to wound anyway So, I mean then that's The first of many instances of of anti Um, but you know, like gorka mocha's Gorka mocha's war cry is a good spell, but I just don't think that you have enough stuff That you're going to want to be fighting with really. I mean that used to work Well again with big stabbers bases or output Um for the damage so you charge a few things into one into You know one big base models like archon and all attack it first Uh Yeah, I thought it could be a potential nice tool and big wall Of course, you still have potential range issues So maybe portal, which you know, it's not cheap so many points to get the range But you could certainly get the cast bonus Conceivably to get this off somewhat reliably and you know, maybe with portal you're you're hanging outside of imbine range or I don't know. Maybe you could chain do some chaining like You know set up a teleport on your bone split An iron jaws cast Hand of gork onto a bone splitter's wizard. Actually, no that doesn't work. It's got to be an iron jaws Units that can only receive right? It's No, no, it's orc. Hey, you don't want the great big green and yeah, it's orc, you know Yeah, it's orc. So, yeah, you could potentially do some sequencing chaining to then Get that You could give the wargog glowing toes in big wall still as well teleport him over So, yeah, I think it has some some chaining potential in big wall because you've got the hammer units Potentially to where I mean one thing you find out with iron jaws is that yeah If you're not achieving smashing and bashing and you're you know, you're getting hit by a mega out of sequence You're not able to burn down that one mega and then you get whacked by another mega You know, that's going to potentially take off your tin brutes or maybe you're in your cabbage So but yeah, this could be a way to help with the sequencing Hmm Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I can see that. Yeah, it's got some value in In big wall for sure. Yeah Oh, what else I'm saying in the other you know, we go go ahead. You're probably going where I was going to go Yep, go ahead Benjamin. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah good The just the last I mean the last spell is just a rework of uh, B spirits, which is you know add one to Charged rolls hit rolls, which is you know, it's it's it's useful. Um, but Yeah, probably, you know, like you you a gogs Giving up their spells now or docks have to give up their spell to dance Where gogs have to give up their spell to use the mask. So It's when are you going to find time to cast that, you know, like the Yeah Sure. No, it's a good buff, but there's a lot of competing opportunity costs with it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep Uh, all right And then finally the lore of the swamp uh for our cruel boys Uh, them all cruel boys better Uh, grow learn how to grow wings start flying or start flapping their arms real hard All right, so the black pit uh the black pit has a casting value of 7 range 12 pick one in a unit within that range Visibly cast a roll a dive for each from all the unit For each six and each other roll that is equal to or greater than unit save characteristic They suffer one mortal wound So, okay, cool. Fine great spell Yeah, like on on paper great spell the context screws it potentially sure I mean like no bonuses to cast and Yeah, I mean You know getting it off again like in the storm cast matchup. It's pretty strong. It's a lot of mortal wounds, right? Like It's decent Um, so that's why it's iron drakes as well. Sure. Yeah. Yeah against a lot. Oh gosh All those cities dwarf stuff with like very low saves. Yeah. Yeah, all those three Breakers and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they just dropped it I think seem like they're gonna they're gonna be about that. We're seeing them about already a lot on I think Um way more than I would have would have anticipated. I wouldn't predicted them to be around Anywhere near as much as they are. So I think that's a good spell. Yeah back pocket there for things like for things like that. Definitely The and we'll talk about the challenge of castors and cruel boys who often want to be doing other things too later on So that's it's that's got to come up again here. But yeah, I mean choking mist Uh, I I agree with uh, Jacob who said choking mist and nasty hex are really kind of the are really pretty stellar Although I think all of these have some potential Um choking mist casting value of seven range 24 pick a point in the battlefield within range of visibility cast are all used within six inches of that point Are affected by choking mist until the start of your next hero phase while they're affected by that They have minus one to their attacks characteristics Uh and cannot run Really love that. I love things that shut off the ability to run minus one attack and no running to a to a bunch of potentially a bunch of stuff Is pretty strong. It's also interesting that you can shut off their ability to use Uh a battle tactic for potentially a good part of their army Because they can't use the that like they can't pick those units to be the three units that run battle tactic, right? And um, that's often one that those like you'll you'll see the little You know pack of three buff heroes hiding around the back will just be waiting to do the run Uh the three the three run battle tactic It's just interesting to push them off of that ability. So they have to run with sub optimal units There's there's certain battle plan. There's certain. Yeah, but uh battle plans that There's not much that you can do something like that like the the new version of star strike There's not a lot that you can do in that first turn. So a lot of people will be doing that as well And I you know, I keep saying in a lot of conversations if you shut one person's battle tactic down for one turn That's potentially swung you the game 100 if you can stay one objectives You can shut down one battle tactic So Yeah, yeah, I think that that that's really interesting. Yeah, it's shutting down ferocious advance Yep, definitely Uh and and as you say like they they normally flag that during deployment as well If that's what they're going for first first of all they flag that in deploy spell Down stop them two points Probably winning of the game. Yeah in more cases than not I think That reminds me. Yeah shout out to coach and Matthew Davies math mellow Sylvaneth God goddess at the moment with his four ones at all these tournaments He did a really nice job of going through the critical importance of denying battle tactics in terms of you know Your list building and that's one of the main differentiators right now in 3.0 in winning games or losing games Just so it's a really nice breakdown. I definitely recommend people check it out You know in the context of his list, but it applies to you know in general across the game I mean 100% if you're if you're regularly achieving four to five battle tactics and you're holding your opponent to three You probably won the game Like it's more or less that simple, right? I'm a no-go list at the weekend is designed about is designed around Giving up as few battle tactics as possible Sure, even if you can just deny one or two in a game You win the game which it's doing which you know a weird off-matter Nurgle list is doing consistently because I wrote it Designed what wrote it specifically to try and deny battle tactics as much as I possibly could It's yeah, it's it's definitely the way to go With list writing I think moving forward AOS 3. Yeah, so yeah, so a spell like that Could potentially be a game winning in in quite a few battle battle plans So and it's also just great utility on top of that right like it's a great debuff is what I mean to say So like it's not as though that the only thing is doing that's that that that's the cherry on top in this case, right? I mean like one one little thought you playing with scenery effects, which we should all be doing You know you find your arcane Terrain and you do your your super sneaky To hop on it now. You're out of six. We're shaking mist. Sure little thing. Yeah Uh sneaky miasma, uh casting value of six in a range of 18 inches Successfully cast pick one friendly cruel boys monster within range of visibility cast or that monster can make a normal move I like this a lot again It's one of those potential ways if you want to run the sort of monster mash version It's another way to you know, try to get more monsters upfield Um, it's a decent cast It's always hard to bank on these kinds of spells though because somebody can shut down your plan Which is tough, but again spells that cause moves are generally pretty good. And so it's okay Yeah, and you can always keep the wizard out of them by enrage as well and Within range. It's a big sure big range, isn't it? It is. Yeah, 18 inches is a nice big range when you're hitting your own people Right, like that's that's a good healthy range um And and by the way, it's the monster only has to be within range not wholly within A small distinction on the spell, but it it matters, right? It means that person can actually be your your caster can be like super backboarded And you're just touching the back of the guy's base and still letting him take that move. So Hmm Uh, and then nasty hex casting value of seven in range of 12 If it successfully cast pick one enemy unit with an range invisible to the caster until the end of your turn Ward rolls cannot be made for models in that unit Whoo Situational, but boy when that situation happens, does it matter? Yeah, yeah, when you get that off on Archeon Shoot me the unit of Bolt boys. He's dead turn one It is crazy. Like, yeah, I mean You think of the uses of like, okay Earth guard and phoenix guard and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah whatever, you know, like there's it's Endless these annoying tarpid units that want to rely on their their ward, right and just Slicing that off is just it completely changes the math on that unit, right? And all the amulet of destinies that we're going to see yeah Yeah, I mean being able to shut the amulet of destiny off on a mega, right? So then you're just dealing with his normal wounds. It's a it's a huge impact to the overall It you it's effectively taking 12 wounds off of him by shutting it off, right? So the only thing is is that you have to invest heavily and that's about you need spell You need right. Sure. Yes. And if not even a third like I was writing lists where if I want this in there I probably need to take a third swamp caller because I'm giving the poison buff to a unit of stabbers No, two unit of shoes a unit of gut rippers And then and then I still want to cast this spell and then you still say well So you even need to cast the portal as well. So yeah, it's it's it's a massive investment. You know if you're doing that I mean, maybe Only works if you're taking gobsprack Maybe But yeah, yeah Living and dying on the seven is not is not my idea of a good time. Yeah, sure with a little investment Yeah, I mean it's it's another example of a something that is situational as well Great, and you'll just know you have it against some games. So as beautiful as it is I think I don't think that we'll actually see it that much on the table I could see again another one to me. This is in the category of the gorka's require whatever It's a tool and big walls toolbox potentially as you said with spell portal because you can actually potentially get the Bonuses to do the thing or set up the sequencing combos to cast the spell out of unbiased range portal it You know, maybe do the sequence in terms of a wizard upfield Is also out of unbiased range or maybe in against an army that can unbiased can't just automatically shut you down You do the thing with spell portal. You got the wizard upfield puts it out one out in the backfield one out forward You got, you know 40 inch range or whatever potentially Yeah, but scroll boys like none of those tricks are on the table Well, I mean you still have you still have potential for fast and and you still have potential for the tome on somebody as well So like I just I just mean in terms of reliability. Yeah. Yeah, sure. I understand that I understand like getting into position That's where you need to be you don't necessarily need to go to the portal route is where I was answering there Right, like there You're right. Yeah I think I haven't been considering arcane tome At all really because you pointed out some really interesting things you can do with that there But yeah, you could put that on a sludge breaker Move him up Yep, cast that there. Yeah, that's interesting. That's a good shot Yeah, and and I can see it. Yes, it's situational, but I can see it as like the pocket tool You know, there's certain tools in my toolbox. I don't use very often, but I'm certainly super glad when I've got them Right, I still keep them in the toolbox like with the tome. It's like, okay, great Yeah, maybe I get to like what's the cost here if I can't use this in a fight Then I'm just going to have that dude mystic shield himself, right if it's like the the sludge breaker Like fine, maybe on a swamp caller as well. You're taking the swamp callers anyway for poison So you just so you you've probably taken two swamp callers in every list So you may as well stick hex on one of them and then if it's situational Then you just give up the you know Like if it's better value to cast text than it is to let the poison Then then there it is, you know, like you're not losing anything by putting it on You know on the on the list with on a swamp caller that you're taking any way for for the reasons, right, right? I don't know if it doesn't become a thing this giving up your spouse to do an ability is awful Uh boy, are they really loving that design space in this book? Yeah, you're not you're not wrong It's really bad because you what are you paying for your wizard for then? Why is he even a wizard why not just put that an ability on something that isn't a wizard and then And then he just doesn't have spells anyway Like you're giving up so much because then why are you even designing spell laws? You know in this army It just doesn't make sense like I don't know. It's a really bad. It's a really bad I hope it's not a direction that that we go in We will see fair point. All right. Let's talk the clans here real quick. Let's talk war clans So we'll do the cruel boys ones first Uh, there is probably a standout here as There is whatever we'll talk it through. Here we go Out of the mists uh grinning blades during the first bout around friendly grinning blades units are not visible to any models that are enemy models Sorry, there are more than 12 inches away from them. Okay, cool. Great as long as your name isn't sentinel Pretty good. Mm-hmm anti shooting technology, right? So that's fine I think it I think it sounds good, but it is kind of it is a bit anti synergy as well with the army because you've got things like your battle trait gives you um Gives you covered in mud which you know, you can get your your important units to not be seen anyway, um, and then also You know, there are a lot of things you've got a spell and mount trait to move things forwards to get in their face So you're probably going to be within 12 inches anyway Um, so so I think that you know, there's a In the battle term that kind of disincentivizes you taking that Um, as well as you know, as we're getting to now big yellows is is the standout Pick anyway. Yeah, I mean, let's just get to it big yellows add three inches to the range characteristics of missile weapons used by friendly big yellows or Uh units in addition in the first bout around each time a friendly Big yellows or a unit shoots you can re-roll one of the hit rolls for one of the attacks made by that unit But that's not actually why these guys are the best. Those are. It's a perfectly good ability Like the ability to re-roll a die is cool. It's fine And like, you know, especially on the big kill bow, it's having the one re-roll of the hit roll is actually kind of cool But we're actually doing it because man skewer bolt boys our little our little Boom, you know, our little bolt boys are battle line in this in this in big yellows and Crew boys, this this is what we'll get into it here. And this is a good place to talk about as any Crew boys to me just feel like they're in the same place with battle line as like old ko when they were only stuck on having Uh, like one battle line unit and that battle line unit was of questionable value Right. Yeah Because any time you could open up anything else people just ran to it immediately, right? If there was any conditional battle line and that conditional battle line was playable and in this case, by the way, I think obviously they're good Um, you just it just becomes the de facto choice because otherwise you're so constrained right I think it relates to the yeah The first sin of curl boys has got rip is at 180 I think there are a lot of downstream consequences to that point value. Yep. Yep, completely agree Yeah, it's like you see if you don't take big yellows you spend in 540 points on battle line. It's the core of your army on battle line and they're not worth Unit to 10 of those and not going to put out 500 Yeah, yeah, I agree Um, all right, and then finally skull bugs Uh, I think what everybody rates as the the worst choice, uh, but Okay, and and for obvious reasons Talk about die within rolling die to roll dice or whatever Okay When an enemy unit is picked to fight roll a dice if it's within three inches of any skull bugs units add two to the roll If that enemy unit is within three inches of any friendly skull bugs monsters So it puts that I should point out that's putting that in the enemy's control Right because if they're going after your non monster units They're just going to do everything they can not to pile in within three if it's at all possible right Uh, and then on a roll of six plus subtract one from hit rolls for attacks made by that enemy unit in that phase Okay Okay. Yeah Again, it's on a four up that in the best circumstances right in the best circumstances It's a coin flip for an egg one to hit I mean as a You know like this seems yeah really terrible to me as an an army wide ability Is it I mean you would take it here's where I'd say you take it I could see it if you were going for the hardcore monster mash type of situation, right monster melee Okay, yeah, and so where you're relying on monsters and they're always going to be near monsters Then why not you're just taking it to have coin flips to give your monsters neg one to be hit It's not that it's useless. It's just like wow is that condition conditionally constrained Right, yeah, and I guess in that case if you go in that route as well Then the other two you're not getting almost any value out of the other two Right allegiance abilities as well. So right. Yeah, exactly. So like why not, right? Yeah, because as you mentioned if you're going for the monster thing, you're probably trying to move them up quick You're trying to get in there pin them alpha them to some degree hit their weak points You're probably trying to do disappear and act on them to get rid of their chaff, right? So you're going to be within 12. So there's no point to grinning blades You don't have you're not relying on shooting. So there's no yellows, right? If you're going all the way into that strategy, whereas I feel like you actually want to be mixed arms and still have that so Um, yeah, okay Um, we'll talk about some monsters Sexy bear says hardcore monster mash out with what monsters we'll get to that. We'll get to it, buddy. We'll get to it Uh iron jaws war clans. Okay honest answer all three of these are good Like Like the the my legitimate feelings is all three of these are completely solid and No reason why you couldn't take any of them and have a good time My personal answer is it's blood tubes or we die? Okay, uh, let's hear it Uh iron suns you can use command ability at the end of the charge phase This unit the unit that receives the command must be a friendly iron suns unit There's within 12 inches of enemy unit more than three inches from all enemy units That iron suns unit can attempt to charge great fantastic Charging outside of enemy charge like during the enemy charge phase Wonderful fantastic surprising great repositioning very solid ability no issues, right? Obviously a super unit with units as well. What's that? Yeah. Yep. Remember when you do it with three units Yep Yes, exactly Yep, you can pass that out to three people And they can all charge They're all getting in Uh, I Yeah, I made this note in another show, but let me just for reference Everybody was playing iron suns. So I when I started picking up iron jaws. I wasn't that interested in trying Because it seemed like a no commodity But then I did try it about a couple weeks before the new book came out and oh my god Yeah, like I get it like how powerful that ability is in certain matchups context Where people cannot ignore the cabbage If they're trying to peeing into like 10 our boys, you're going to get my our boys You're going to get the cabbage in your face, right? Just the ability to do things like that or get extra. It's it's crazy. It's pure strong tempo control Right, like you will decide the engagements period Right like between my movement with mighty destroyers and my iron sensibility I will decide what's fighting. You will not Okay, yeah, like that is strong Uh, okay Uh the uh blood toofs Um, which is my personal pick at the two reasons Which first here at the end of the combat phrase friendly blood toof score grunt as units that fought in that phase And are within three inches of any enemy units can make a pylon move Fantastic more piling in Uh, in addition those that fought but are not within three inches of any any enemy units can each make a normal Move or attempt a charge. I would point out. This is a unit that does mortal wound impact hits And I would point out this is a unit with a pretty decent base normal move And the ability to take a bunch of pigs Ram into something and kill it And then just leave And go your entire move distance back onto an objective Every single combat phase with no expenditure of resources Okay And or to to do the flip side to to blow up the unit of 10 That's and then just sail on in behind. Yep, and you're in and I would point out that Uh, also blood toofs are battle lined in or sorry gargoyles are our battle line in blood toofs. That's what I'm trying to say so piggy piggy back on the menu, baby and Some people will tell you six pigs is too many because of new coherency Those people are wrong Six pigs is amazing. Don't believe the hype You stand a decent chance of losing one pig at some point in the game And then you have full a unit of five with the perfect coherency Rip it and tear in and you can do the four and two with the tokyo drift the whole rest of the time It's fine Six units the six strong unit of pigs. I have had Wonderful wonderful usage with even with the new coherency rules I've got a user manual for for six pigs because I'm doing something wrong, man. Be good at whatever Okay, sure I've had two two tries with them and it's been a complete disaster both times And you know, I'm doing the tokyo drift. I'm doing all the things I'm I'm doing the weird formation nonsense, and it's just not Reality is getting stepping in the way my friends of your of your theory Well, I'll say that it's works fine over here, but yeah, good Oh, no, it's just because I haven't seen them play out on the table actually with the new case But on paper there, they're my favorite unit in the army six pigs. Yeah It's so good Like again, you only ever bring four in when they're under that But like you're just you can be so cavalier with six pigs It's ridiculous and like one dies pretty fast and with this ability Remember on that normal move out of combat. You just whoop whoop whoop You're right back into whatever coherency you want And then you're just Into somebody else, right? So, uh, yeah, it's great. And then finally to choppas. Um, if you're going to go, you know, brute heavy boy Oh boy, is this a great play? Um, when you use violent fury ability of to choppa's war of a friendly to choppa's war chanter There we go. That's it's a lot of non words to string together You can pick up to three different friendly to choppa's brutes units or to choppa's ard boys units in any combination To be affected by the ability instead of one Why give plus one damage to just one unit of brutes or ard boys when you can give it to all of them? Uh combos super well with your, uh, mega boss who's you know, making three units Move or charge or whatever like just apparently you just move in threes So, you know, I mean all three of these have value depending on your list So, definitely Great stuff All right bone grins ice bone and dragfoot Uh Okay Benjamin What what do you like here bone grins is plus one to attack to savage orich arrow boys ice bone is Unmodified wound rolls from attack made with melee weapons by friendly ice bone model six It goes straight to mortal wounds equal to the damage characteristic and the attack sequence ends and dragfoot is no ward saves I mean Allegiance a bit like I well bone grins is just terrible that that used to just be an ability that was on their The arab boys war scroll and they get it for free for having over 15 models Uh, and it replaced, uh, no Uh army wide no retreat if you're interested of any bone grins units Which granted probably is a little bit too powerful, but completely changes and completely Uh ruins bone grins like I just don't think you would ever take bone grins anymore ice bone is a bit more interesting um because it does Does synergize quite nicely with the fact that your attacks are exploding on sixes so you gain more wound rolls Then there's big units of boys Or you know like you little dark units of pigs Also helps to cover the lack of rend right because suddenly you have mortal capability That's it. Exactly. I was about to say you've got rending It's great. Um, and then You know dragfoot for all the reasons we just spoke about with this with nasty hacks. Yeah Nasty hack being interesting is is great, but it's an allegiance ability So it is situational probably uh, dragfoot's better as a As a teams army really so you sure into To other lists that that it's going to benefit from Um, it is. I mean it is good and you will get more value I think that you would in previous ones because of just because of amulet of destiny really, um Um, yeah, so I think ice bone though is probably the one to go for Typically, um, and you go in you probably go in pigs heavy anyway, um, so you've got The attacks of the rider and the pigs are all gonna fuck potentially more wounds So I think that that's that's the one I would play I think if I was taking it to an Yeah, it feels like the best all-comer Right sort of the the the choice for the all-arounder because it is Compensating for sort of a known weakness, right? Yeah Okay, and then lastly big wall Before we get into the rest of this good night. We have taken a long time on this. All right uh big wall, um So cun and brutal and savage a big wall army uses the following three battle traits in addition to the other battle traits on this page So they get the venom encrusted weapons for their cruel boys auric units not mounts just like the standard rule They get the mighty they get mighty destroyers for their iron jaws units because it can only move iron jaws units And they get the war paint for their bones bladers units cool beans Good enough. Um, they have a new heroic action that their hero can carry out Which is you choose instead of doing one of your normal ones You roll a die if the roll is greater than the number of the current battle round You receive a number of wall points equal to the number of the current battle round So if you roll a four plus in turn three you get three wall points in turn one You'll need a two point two plus, but you only get one That's a heavy cost in the heroic action because you're doing that instead of other things But it is usable in both players turns. Uh, we should point out because it is It's a standard heroic action. I can do it on my turn. I can do it in your turn and so on and so forth Oh, I missed that. Oh, great. That's that's yeah. Yeah. I think that's what makes it value for me I think if it was just your turn then then then no probably But I think the potential to double it pin in both turns, but then uh, yeah, it's I mean you you do want command points Don't you for destroyers in Yeah, it's there's a cost there's a cost it's and it gets much harder as like the reward is bigger But it gets much harder as the game goes on, right? So Yeah Like in round four and five it's questionable that you're gonna throw a dice at this. Let's be honest, right? All right, and you probably stack your big wall points by then anyway, right? You just don't need it Unless you've blown them all on Yeah, yeah, it definitely just seems to me like a round one and two thing Particularly now that I know you can do in both Hero phases. Yeah, you're just trying to spike up to get to that 16 to 20 Right. I mean that you're trying to get every point you can to get up to 16 to 20 um, yeah the um The power of the wall is very different now and how it generates points Um d6 points at the start of your hero phase if your general's on the battlefield That's just kind of a flat one, but you got to keep your general alive um two points, uh, if there are Any friendly war channers on the battlefield just any at all one slash infinite is two points One point at the start of your hero phase if there are any friendly bone splitters wizards on the battlefield any one to infinite one point One point your charge phase were each friendly oric unit that finishes a charge move Do note this because not everything has the oric keyword in all three of these combined armies Uh, so you got to be careful of that And then at the end of the combat phase for each uh, but that is each so it's everybody who who completes a charge Uh, and then one point for at the end of the combat phase for each friendly oric unit that is within three inches of an enemy unit Okay, always tough to do because you want to be killing people So, you know If you if you if you go too hard and kill too much you get less which is an interesting outcome, right? Um, and then the table now goes zogam for plus one to run at eight Plus one to charge 10 plus one to casting a dispelling and unbinding at 12 One to hit at 16 one to wound at 20 and then at 24 you have your big Okay Yeah, so do you guys have any perspective and what we might see as a rough average by let's say the end of your first turn Like in terms of outputs, you know You think in like eight or 10 is talking about the literally the end of your first turn like assume you go first And it's the end of your first turn. What are you at? Any how many wall points? Yeah We're getting up to or just say round one. How many wall points are we getting to in round one? I know that I mean that's there's a lot of variables here, but I'm just curious if any eight to like eight to 10 or 11 if you go real hard Like I suppose there's probably some kind of alpha build you could go for that would get you higher But that's pretty like d6 average is three or four plus one for the heroic action Two for the existence of the war chan or one for the existence the bones of the wizards because certainly you've taken those two Right, so that puts you up to like three or four four or five You know seven or eight eight or nine and then a couple charges slash fighting depending on what's fighting, right? Yeah Yeah, I was basically thinking around eight to ten, but yeah So that means the The plus one to hit and wound still is achievable by turn two then isn't it And that was part of the thought. Yeah, is that I would suspect a base of attraction for list design would be lists that are capable of getting to 20 ideally by round two. We're certainly capable of getting to 16 by round two Absolutely capable of getting to 16. Yeah, it's still doable. Yeah. It's still doable Absolutely doable to get to 16 to 20 by round two. Yeah 100 Yeah Yeah, I mean to me big was it's fine. It's cool. It's not as it doesn't feel as sort of default almost as it used to where it felt like Oh, jeez. I I just run iron jaws. I guess I'm I guess I'm making the worst choice It does feel like it's it's competitive with the rest of the things now Benjamin how competitive do you think big was gonna be? Uh, I'll be honest. I haven't given it. Yeah, because in like the most complex Of it's one that I haven't got I haven't got the actual time yet. So I never um Or never seem to get into The real sort of cerebral lists until I can sit with the actual book and and pull through and flick through the pages So I haven't given that too much thought yet because I think that I think there will be really interesting builds in there There's there's a lot more Well cruel boys opens up a lot more options for big why that they didn't um, so I think I think I think it's got potential. Yeah, I think Definitely, um, I just haven't really kind of given a I definitely find it the most compelling Sorry the most compelling in terms of like where we are and where we could be in turn You know the list that we might see and because there just hasn't been a whole lot yet Like yeah, the tech and the optionality space is is really intriguing there. I think I mean the others are relatively known and I feel maybe I again, I don't know much about bone splitters, but yeah Yeah, I think it's I think it's intriguing big wall Yeah, yeah, I think I think big big what doesn't doesn't come on my sort of 3000 foot view from the beginning of the You know the beginning of the the show As I think you can kind of look at I enjoy Get an idea of what's good very quickly the same with cool boys And with bones players you can get a look at it and see that is very good quickly Whereas bones big wire. I think he's going to take a little bit more To figure out the the right balance of what kind of you know, yeah, especially if we just injected like 10 12 Whatever it is new units into it, right? Yeah Yeah All right Match play grand strategies We'll get to the units eventually folks. I promise we're like three hours into this and we haven't even touched the units left Good good lord people. We're gonna move fast through the units. I'm gonna warn you right now guys. Okay Uh Okay, no, it's fine here. Yeah, it's my it's all my fault. I'm here All right, uh grand strats are any of these good No, nope No, they're just not I don't think they're they're all bad Like they're just all bad You're not taking these Um, yeah Yeah, so cool neat. Yeah, they're bad. Yeah, there's a battle tactics that are relevant Yeah, so battle tactics are like grand strategies all bad flip that page tear it out of your book burn it As I will say every book review from now until the end of time. These should not be in the book There should be no grand strategy. There should be no battle tactics in the book This was a mistake from the very beginning to include grand strategies battle tactics and core battalions I find it deeply offensive that they included this crap in the books. It should not be we should all be playing from the same Selection of options because it would keep the game more even keeled by doing this You only introduced the incredible chance for high variants And for some people to just be able to slam dunk on five battle tactics Which is what really matters as we just discussed Not 30 minutes ago is how important it is and yet they willingly are making their game worse by putting this in here And it bothers me to no end Okay Yeah, I've seen the point that you know, some people have been saying well Your opponent can just tell you what they're doing. So it's fine. That's not really the point about why we've been saying this about That is not the point at all It's about increasing Yeah, the the probability that people are that you get all five easy Yeah, that that's the problem with these things Okay, that's all that that's all that this is about. Yeah Time to get stuck in you can pick this tactic only in your first or second turn you complete this tactic if the model Picked to be your general and all of the models in your army that are on the battlefield are within 12 Inches of an enemy unit at the end of the turn Um, great This is one of those ones that's like I don't hate that it's here because if this comes to pass Like you're playing an iron jaws army and you happen to be running up with everybody in turn two And you're just going to happen to be within 12 with the whole army or because they came to you Or you met in the middle or whatever Right Yeah, well, it's only turn one and two you can only use it in the first or second turn That's the trick. Oh, is it okay? Yeah, but it doesn't matter like the point is that if that situation comes to pass then you will just do this and you'll autocomplete it Great. It's another it's an autocomplete will it happen every game? No Should you be playing toward it? Probably not unless it's part of your strategy, but will it happen sometimes? Yeah, and then you can just go great. I get this free one done Yeah, and you save save one of the other easy ones Right. Yeah, you save like your run three or your, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever it is You know, you save your monster's takeover for later Um wait for it lads you can pick this battle tactic only if your army has at least 24 wall points You complete this tactic if your army has at least 30 wall points at the end of turn Fine. Good enough if you're doing big wall, um, you know, like You're not often going to need to pop the wall right away. And so like You can generally rely on probably at that point getting at least six Like you can do your math if you know, you're gonna probably get at least six then sure. Why not, right? Mm-hmm Um, switch to puny gets you can pick this battle tactic Only if the model picked to be your general has the iron jaws keyword And there is at least one enemy battle line unit on the field You complete this tactic if there are no enemy battle line units on the battlefield No enemy battle line units on the battlefield at the end of this turn So it's a modified broken ranks because you use it on the it basically gives you a second broken ranks for the late game Right where you've already picked broken ranks. You killed one battle line unit Now they're down to like the the other one died incidentally They're down to one left and then you're just going to go smash that thing off the table and broken ranks two Right, you do it how I used it. Yeah in the first game. Yeah, exactly It's just it's late game broken ranks two electric boogaloo. Fantastic. Okay good Like there's just a limited design space for these and doubling it up with weird interesting conditionals doesn't make them innately interesting Um killed a biggin you can pick this battle tactic only if the model picked to be your general has the bone splitters keyword Pick one enemy monster you complete this tactic if that monster was slain by attacks made by bone splitters this turn So you get bring it down part two If your bone splitters right pick the monster kill the monster great So now you have to bring it down If they retained any of their monster Yeah, it would have been great feels like that could have been a part of it. Yeah And then take that you suckers, um, you can pick this battle tactic Only if the model picked to be your general has the cruel boys keyword and basically deal at least 10 wounds, but don't take 10 wounds Um, so you're going to pick that in the shooting version of cruel boys this battle tactic I hate it because it it alone does is it an additional incentive on top of a lot of incentives to shooting type stuff Where if you have a bunch of bolt boys, you'll know you'll do at least 10 damage If you're not in combat, you know that you're not getting hit back for 10. So why not? Right, it's it's it's just a it's it's a silly incentive for a low save army Uh to have because then it in melee it's useless in shooting. It's god And then finally, um You can pick this tactic only if a friendly crag noses on the battlefield pick one faction terrain feature on the battlefield That was set up by your opponent and it has not been demolished You complete this tactic if that faction terrain feature is demolished. Sure. Why not? Okay cool Like sure Have a couple monsters that way you get a couple bites at that rolling a random die to get two points You know game that you're playing there like three up to get two battle points. Oh, I got it. Yay Uh, all right core battalions Uh, I'll be right back. Yeah, that's fine. All of these are bad, right? Am I missing anything here? Okay They're not good there's like Chat are you like am I missing something here chat? P? I know we've got some some folks here I looked over these and literally I cannot figure out a reason why I would pick any of these over the existing ones so Yeah, there you go I mean the the cruel boys one Is actually I mean if you're going It's a cheaper way of getting an extra command point if that's what you're not Yeah, I I just like I guess I mean, I'd probably just figure out a way to take command on to roger warlord Yeah, I mean you go warlord first definitely then that's you know, like Because you do need to go command on to our jam wall or you do foot sluggers so If you don't eat, you know, if you're if you only got one one extra swan player could maybe do that You're gonna have you know, you got a couple a couple of units. It's it You might take that there might be Yeah, I yeah, I just Nope pass. Okay, great Uh units here we go. We're finally there folks Okay Alrighty Mega boss on that was my my first bathroom break in the history of doing the show No, it's fine. I'm I'm almost there too honestly because I drank a bunch right before the show which was stupid of me rookie mistakes Yeah, it's it's because the unusual time. I I was like whatever. It doesn't matter. Okay We will power through my bladder can take it. Let's do this It's only like 30 scrolls. All right Mega boss on ma crush it. He is amazing Ignore the fact that it says four up. I'm not going to read all of his attacks. He's 18 wounds now That might say four up save to your eye It is not because now you're always taking the rip to fist which sets his save back on a three plus where it belongs It's incredible. His destructive bulk as mentioned earlier is now just a bonus damage on the stomp monster section. Fine, whatever Uh, he now has four levels on his wound profile Which is like how all monsters are written now so he can go zero to six without suffering any penalty He has 15 attacks because that's what you're gonna end up taking You're not taking the boss hacka and choppa because you want to have a three up save because you're not insane Uh, and then he still has uh his strength from victory bonus wounds and bonus attacks whenever he kills stuff Which is fantastic And skull shaking bellow the three friendly iron jaws units receive this command ability instead of only one That is when he uses any of his command abilities. Now, there are restrictions to hear There are questions we need to answer in the faq. For example, theoretically, he could rally three units at once. That would work fine um theoretically he could Like he but theoretically he cannot all out attack or all out defense three units at once Because three units at once can't meet the trigger Which is that unit is picked to fight or that unit is attacked Right and that happens one at a time. So that there aren't three triggers Uh on there that are happening simultaneously But it has to do with the the wording on a lot of tech is yeah Yes, the issue. Yep. We need clarification. Right. So, um, you know, some of them still work like I believe the run six You can do it too because you can pick three different units and then their run becomes six. I think Um, maybe it's when they're picked to move. I don't have all of them in front of me So I apologize. But the point is read the wording. Some of them will work. Some of them won't that's the answer um Because you have to all the units that get targeted have to meet the trigger of The thing of the command ability. That's how I'm reading it now We could get an faq that tells me Completely different and they could say nope. You can just do it anyways who cares ignore our own rules fine You know But timing wise it seems clear as a bell to me Uh, obviously mighty destroyers being tripped up mighty destroyers and six units is incredible Or, you know, whatever whatever so yep I think rally is one that you can do Yeah rally works. Yeah, because it's just it's at the start of the european You can pick a unit that's depleted and boom Uh at the double you can use this command ability after you declare that a friendly unit will run Oh, there you go. Yeah, so you couldn't do it because you can't declare all three hands running at once. Yeah Yeah, it's language like that that yeah, at least for right now folk should Let me see language like that. Don't do it for right now And all out attack is like that and yeah Yep But yeah, he's amazing. He's great. He hits like a truck Yes, the rip two fist is only rend one damage two and the mighty fist and taylor rend two damage three And he doesn't have the rend three weapon anymore Who cares it doesn't matter you can easily get him to damage three four Um, you can easily buff the crap out of this guy have him charging three six inches And on the turn you go in with him You're gonna call the wall Like when he really needs to kill something and then main dude is rend two and boy on top is rend three And s has been pointed out. He's just going to wreck sun like he He can get it. He can get it I didn't I didn't play iron jaws, you know in the It's tomlin kieran, you know early on days and company, but I would imagine this Latest iteration is what? That must felt like in terms of you know, you were just trying to set up your sequence To get out get everything right and then you're going in in this case with your big your your wall To to blow everything off the board and smash into fashion with that extra rend and and so on and so forth like I just I love the design of that as As a play style and because there's there's some cool johnny etc to to that is like this great combo of timmy and john They just nailed it. Yeah, and the cabbage like it's such a perfect expression of that. Yep He's gorgeous. Yeah, I love him so much So much And yes, you can build an army with three of these now That is that is actually doable in the points. So if you really love him, you can you can trip him You can trip cabbage now Gordrack nope Skip I mean, he's got war. He's basically the normal guy The normal megaboss with with a couple notable exceptions that are big deals He has two more wounds, which is cool, but he has a four up save and no ability to change that which is not cool Um, his weapons are fine They're perfectly fine like he gets a lot of attacks 10 attacks And they can have some extra neat things they do like proc mortal wounds and stuff his destructive bulk is one more Okay his You know like fine enough his his his small crush is one attack scarier Um, but he's a four up base save And that's where we stop That's it and he can't take amulet like the more crushing him. He can't take any amulet Yep, that's another big piece of this So I just find this interesting we don't have to get into this but The fact that all of us write off This cabbage gore track because it's got a four up save. I find that compelling in relation to the save stacking debate Sure, we've gone from like zero to 100 Save stacking is the worst thing in the world that needs to be get get rid of save stacking in the game And the moment we see a four plus save base characteristic We're out. We're all out Like I just find that we don't have to get into it, but I find that intriguing Look, it's a thing that's here. It's reality Like save stacking is the real world Right. And by the way, if it went away, I might be even more prone to care about the three out Right because then I can push to like at least I have some ability to push to a two sometimes You know, I mean it's such a huge deal. And by the way, this guy is still so much more expensive Than the normal dude For like no reason I He's 80 points more expensive. He's 560 compared to the mega boss is 480 Yeah 68, okay Like no, yeah There's no universe where he's worth 80 points. Sorry. Go ahead Benchman. I apologize That's okay. Yeah, like he scales better with What's the ability called where he's getting extra because he's got two Yeah, instead of one or two profiles instead of three instead of two, right? I should say Friends from victory he's better with that but It's just yeah, it's not worth 80 points, but no Yes, his strength from victory pushes him to six and six on his main weapons and also violent fury But all of those become damage three obviously, right? so You know, okay I think you know that with the fact you cannot amulets and therefore you cannot arcane to him or You know the three that we mentioned like that. He's out that in the four up. Yeah, so yeah Yeah, you bet. Yep Like at some point we'll we'll figure this out at some point boardwreck will be worth it Uh, we'll have these unique some of these neat characters that should be cheaper than the better baseline, you know generic bill We'll actually get that Because I he should be cheaper arguably than the the mega boss, but anyway Uh, yeah and mega boss mic said if he still gave you automatically six on the d6 for your big wall points That would make him more playable at least in that build, but he doesn't anymore, which is like a real shame Yeah Uh orc weird knob shaman also known as a unit. I never take Uh I do not find any value in this guy Uh, he is now 90 points. He's cheapest chips now for a caster. I'll give him that at least Uh but but um Well, hold on. I want to answer some of the comments ben Briccio said gorgorat giving out three unleash hells to bolt boys in big waw So two tricks to that one the regular mega boss can do it because he also has the trip three thing So no difference there, but two the problem with unleash hell is they all have to be within they still all have to satisfy the criteria So they'd all have to be within nine units of the unit that completed the the charge, right? So at any rate just to rally at home again. Nope. I can still do it with a normal guy and spend 80 less points So, okay weird knob shaman 90 points. Tyler you want to defend this pile of crap? Because i'm just putting arcane tome on my second wall crusher and saying that's a better caster every day of the week Well, look, uh after constantinos converted me to the new religion of touch by wall Uh, yeah, it's hard to argue for the the weird knob. I'll I'll give you that Yeah, I mean he's cheaper. So that's nice. I mean if you're feeling lucky you could potentially make him the general And hang him out in the backfield and hope for the best Hope that you're not playing somebody with sentinels or something to try to deny slay the warlord I I think it's hard to argue for him right now, but I need to think more about him Yeah with touch by wall on a cabbage. Oh, thank you. Everybody corrected me. You're absolutely right I'm sorry. The regular mega boss is only iron jaws core crack can't target any unit So he is the only one who's been pulled off the three unleash hells. Thank you. Sorry everybody. I apologize. Yeah, good. Okay Yeah, um, are you not making Are you not taking in your lists? And I just want to wound Never could Potentially the I mean an iron jaws Benjamin. Of course, you're not you're only getting buffs mostly one way and that's touch by wall Unless you get lucky and get arcane. So then you're I mean it might it does make that a little more Interesting and that he's only only 90 points. So it's like I could spend 90 points and hope I can roll sevens Yeah, you could backboard him and you know, like make your opponent if you're not playing seraphon have to get Fairly close to you to get an unbind range or yeah, you can you can do some things But yeah, I don't know. I'm kind of on the fence with him now, but maybe Pass not reliable without any bonuses in terms of that. Pass. Yeah pass Iron jaws are about punching people in the face. This guy is 90 points of not punching people in the face I can now make my mega boss a caster end of discussion. Like what are we talking about? It also screws up the drop count because you're always going to well if you're running a cabbage You have a cabbage and you have two war channers. Sure. So there's your battle wretch finished So he screws that up. He takes you from a one to two So part of that would depend on how much you think there's a difference between one and two I think there's a potential huge difference Particularly the meta that we're in and then you can easily do a very scary one You know, I think like a common list is going to be two cheerleaders War channers cabbage 10 brutes 10 brutes like 10 r boys six pigs three pigs. There you go. It's like 1971 drop good to go That's a ton of hitting power 155 wounds There's a few variations you can have there, but yeah Yeah, I think he's kind of hard in terms of drop count if you're trying to play that game. Sure Pass Brutes. Oh, yeah, baby Now we're now we're to the good stuff Oh Let's talk about brutes battle line all the time five of them for 160 points So it's 15 wounds for 160 points on a four up save with bravery six One guy is a champion. He has uh, the boss claw and the brute smasher Or sorry, but yeah, but you know what I just said, you know what I'm saying Uh at any rate, uh, the two inch reach weapons just became hot hot hot Uh, because the jagged gore hackers are two inch reach three attacks So one less attack than the choppas, but on threes and threes neg two rend One damage combined with the fact that the Uh, the gore hacker, uh, sorry gore choppa. I apologize the gore choppa Um is uh fours and threes also neg two rend but two damage base Uh incredible, uh on the round these guys come in that is a huge amount of your unit that is One can reach over the top because they all have two inch reach so they can fight in five and five with no problem As long as your little champion guy is you know, one of the dudes up front Which just you know, make sure that happens And then everybody else can fight and they have a huge amount of their attacks being on rend three Whoo Take that save stacking meta And uh and then as well They have a built-in plus one to hit against a lot of stuff because you had one to hit rolls for attacks made by this unit The target unit with a wounds characteristic of four or more Which is wonderful because then if you're fighting a big thing and or not even that big of a thing like ogre's ogre or bigger And you then you don't have to use all that attack on them. They just boom They're just a plus one now. They're all in twos basically. It's great. It's fantastic And uh, the you messin our new ability that is so fantastic enemy models with a wounds characteristic of one That are within three inches of this unit cannot contest objectives Raising Such a good ability. It's so insane Oh my god You messin and you Yeah, you so I got a good amount of salt from my friend the first game that he experienced this Because I was not even within six inches of the objective with the brutes that were shutting down his 20 pinks And I had other units that were in range to just uh, we're here. We're just gonna, you know cabbage was just there hanging out Screw the 20 pinks. We're gonna score this because my brutes nine inches away tagging 20 pinks No, I was amazing. Yeah I love it. I think That ability on its own settles the argument between brutes and our boys, doesn't it I think Yeah, they're all very different roles now, right like Yeah, they are very different Yeah, but I think At their Yeah, extraordinary unit. Yes. Yeah Uh Iron Gutsman just said 20 points cheaper than 10 gut ripas. Yeah Yep Okay our boys our boys have now become your sort of like your Body unit if you just want mass amounts of guy to just be like a sort of anvil They're they're kind of your anvil unit. I mean, that's really what it is that you can spam and replace, right? Um, but they can go up to 15. They are battle line now all the time No longer do you need 10 they're base 5 for 85 points, which is cheap So if you're just trying to get sort of body slash board control that kind of thing, this is the role they fill They're probably now the weakest of the three mains. I would argue, but they but they're not bad Um, you know, there's still two wounds a piece on a four up save. So 30 wounds for for You know, not a tremendously huge amount of points 255 points, right? uh And the they're now three attacks on fours threes. No rend one damage Uh, they still have built in plus one to charge not plus two anymore, but plus one their bravery did go down And they don't have us if they can't get the bravery eight. They only go to bravery six um, and uh the um Uh Drawn to the wall is really interesting where if this unit's champion issues the rally command It has to be that unit's champion. So if he gets killed or eaten or slain by you know, any of those things They can't do it anymore But you have to like rally him back alive with something else or whatever, you know But if this unit's champion issues the rally command to this unit while they're uh, wholly within 12 inches of a war chanter You can return one slain models of this unit for each role of a four plus instead of a six up Uh, and then they can still have their shields for a ward of six up. So between the ward The bodies the units and the rally they're clearly meant to be like your swamp animal. That's kind of the that's It clearly the intention Um, Jacob simms said vince art boys plus egomaniac You are reviving four plus meat shields Nice not terrible Sort of in a big wobble. Yeah, kind of a cool cool meat shield to protect your hero um, yeah They're clearly not as damaging anymore. They're just a big swampy Like meat shield now, they're me So I like them. Yeah, I think they're pointed appropriately and like gut repus sure and Like yeah, they've they've got a role to fulfill in your backfielder or whatever And then gore grunt as five wounds four up save beautiful beautiful beautiful all the way around rend on the guys Uh, and now the tusks and hooves are down to threes and threes You have your charge that can be on three up or two up If you have your jagged gore hackers for mortal wounds Um, which is how I build them because why not like two entries just makes your your perk a lot easier Uh, boss gets plus one attack Nine inch move. They're everything they should be for the beautiful price of 150 points and they're about a line in blood tooth Love them Love them Everything I want. They're everything I want. They're beautiful and buff to damage and on the wall Say goodnight crazy Like they will They will just blow things up Just blow them up So much damage amazing Uh, I'm just blowing through these guys quick because you know, it's Because there's not a lot to talk about with them. They're all pretty like iron jaw scrolls are all pretty on on the face Of what what you see is what you get Yeah, uh the orc mega boss seven wounds on the three up save apparently he's got better armor than gourd rack So take that gourd rack He has the when you issue he can issue it to two people. So still quite good Eight attacks threes and threes neg one two damage with his weapon profile still great Still has strength for victory where if he kills he gets uh one wound and one attack. So very nice Uh, and if he's killed in the combat phase, he can fight immediately before he's removed So he can always he can always fight before he dies Um, yeah, great. Uh, what I love about this guy Why do I love this guy? Well, I love this guy quite a bit and I love this guy because he's 140 points Yep, that's a good price point. I mean we've talked a lot over the years about how we need more of these Foot hammers, you know these scary Individual seven eight nine wound heroes on foot and this guy definitely fulfills that role at 140 points I don't I'm still not sure he's going to be in that many iron jaws list. He might be an intriguing Or reasonably intriguing big war addition. I don't know Benjamin. What do you think about this guy? Hmm. Yeah, I like him a lot at that at that point anyway, I think he's he's just Synergizing so well with the rest of the army is Day attacks can go to twos and twos really easy. Mm-hmm get up to two rend you can give him the artifact Like yeah, that's a that's a lot of output. Yeah At least more base Yeah, I mean he's he is he's slow, but you know, there's a lot of ways around around that And everything else yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he can just catch an extra mighty from somebody I would point out he's another great one for get them lads Or throw the get him beat. Sorry where because then you know, it doesn't matter to only move for if he charges 3d6 He can just Suddenly shoot out from behind the lines right into somebody because you pointed out he is on a relatively small base Um for what he has I mean, it's big for an infantry hero, but it's it's small vis-a-vis your mock rusher Right Uh So yeah, the war chanter this guy had a lot of changes Uh six wounds for up save his sticks got a little better Um his sticks are now six tacks three threes no rend of a d3 damage stick stick stick He has still has violent fury. He picks a an iron jaws unit holy within 15. He gives them plus one to damage um Until your next hero phase so Yep, super good still super good like great amazing and the war beats changed a lot first thing to note about war beats They're now successful on a three up instead of a four up Oh boy, does that change the math on these guys? Second thing to understand is they're now phase locked so they happen sort of at a more appropriate time This can be good or bad, but it can it can't help Um fix and beat is in the hero phase so you can heal D three wounds perfectly like Fixing beats where I start excuse me. I always have one fix and beat chanter. That's my first chanter. I will say I run trip channers Um, so there you go um, I actually run two fix and beat um heroes just because uh Or sorry, um You can pick one of the following war beats to know and it right on your army roster You can only attempt one of the war beat that it knows. Um, yeah, so Yeah, anyways, you get it. I don't want to drill myself get them beat now happens at the start of the charge phase Um, if the attempt is successful pick one friendly iron jaws unit only within 12 in that Uh, and then that unit rolls 3d6 instead of 2d6 when making a charge and they can declare a charge up to 18 inches away Um, very strong on a three up and the fact that this is in charge phase can be a little good a little bad You know like something can shoot way out You have to think more about your movement between mighty destroyers and your actual move And this guy's run. Um, this is a pretty frequent guy to absorb a command point to need to run six Right Just so he can get the full 10 out there to extend his 15 inch range all the way and Or his 12 inch range all the way for for these or whatever, you know Sorry, um, and then kill a beat is attempted at the start of the combat phase If successful you pick one enemy unit within 12 not fully. Thank god And add one to hit rolls for attacks made with melee weapons that target that unit. So again all valid Yeah centerpieces of the army as always. Yep I haven't noticed uh, I noticed that it moved to a three actually Yep, it's so huge Massive. Yeah, really big change. I think they're 115 now She's right around where they were. So yeah, good very good value Uh, yes as as megaboss mike pointed out it is your charge phase, which means you can't combo it with ironsons Which is a shame, but at the same time still an incredible ability and on a three up I have found this like I was getting a beat Like every round I was keeping that dude where I wanted him, you know to just like make brew I need to get the roots out there. There they go You know mighty destroyers them for a four and then get the get them beat on them and they shoot off 10 inches You know, it's just it's a three six charge is so good And the fact that it's now on a three up makes it much much much much more reliable All right, that's iron jaws. They're good. It's good stuff. You can you can mix and match almost anything in there And even the I mean we're gonna skip them But even the warbands are reasonably playable at their point value like they're they're reasonably intriguing I think Yeah, oh somebody asked a question is fixin beat and kill a beat not iron jaws locked No, they are not so in big wad. They can heal anybody or give the plus one to anybody. Yes That is correct only only get them beat is faction locked Okay, kill a boss on great Nash 2 if it's the same guy we saw in the dominion box set, um, you know he Um, he can help he helps with the battle shock thing you're talking about right because he makes it So only one model fleas Uh, and then he adds one to hit rolls for attacks made by this unit if they charged so um Staple, but you know, he's okay. He's 170 points What's your read on this guy benjamin? The three plus save makes him worth I think The 170 there's nothing else with a three plus saving the arm right, you know, he's he's 10 wounds. He's 10 You know, he's 10 inch move. He can put out. He can put out a little bit of damage. I think You go for him. I think You go for him over the over the vulture Yeah, I think so. I don't I don't I don't read the vulture. The vulture is cheap actually I guess it is cheaper than what I imagine it should be. I think it's 240 Oh, what are we talking about? Who do you want to compare him to kill a boss on vulture? Oh the kill a boss on corpse rip a vulture is 240. Yes, that is correct Yeah, and he's 170 so I don't know now What is he if it's the ultra four plus eight? Yeah five as well. Yeah four plus 14 wounds Honestly, the only thing I don't like about this guy. I like him at his points I agree with you on all your things. He does something very useful Battle shock is a thing with cool boys and it's nice that he can stop that to some degree Yeah, um, I wish he was nine wounds instead of 10. I think iron guy who said that Uh Somebody in the comments said that I think iron guttsman said it there. Yeah, I really like I hate seeing 10 wound heroes That's his that's his only negative right For no reason though Because then he he pushes up into the high leader bracket For like filling out battalions. He can't gain cover You know and all that kind of stuff, right? Just it has a lot of cascading impacts Like a 10 wound hero take the same exact scroll make one of them nine wounds One of them 10 wounds the nine wood guy is better Counterintuitively, right? Yeah Yeah, it's it's it's his only downside, but I agree with you. I like him. He's on three bullets. Say if he's actually Fairly tough. He's not a monster. He's not worth anything extra to your to your opponent, right? Which is nice. He can't like give most of your points that up and downside, but yeah But he can still you know, he can still have his birthday. He's getting plus one Anyways, those and you know going to twos and twos You know, you're not going to be sending him in to Wipe out one big threat, but he can Nip about on the edges take out screens take out things holding objectives I can see him in lists. I would probably run. Yeah He can be a great guide to partner up when you're calling the law in cruel boys, right? If you're going for the melee strategy because he's a great one of the three to pick Even if he's not your general he can be a good like he can be a good one to pick Because especially if you charge that round, you know Suddenly twos and threes for his whole profile. It's not bad. It's not bad Uh, all right, man skewer bolt boys. Oh boy. Goodie. Here we go. All right Man skewer bolt boys as mentioned previously our battle line in the big yellows version of the army You get three of them for 120 points. So it's six wounds on a six up save For 120 points. Normally we would stop there and say it's no good If we were just looking at those stats in the raw But of course there's more to it than that Uh The champion has plus one attack Of that model's missile weapons, which is actually a incredibly important champion bonus in this unit Right And the way their hasty shot aimed shot works is it's a forced choice Basically, if you didn't make a normal move and you're more than three inches away Then you use the aimed shot. Otherwise you use hasty shot, right? So aimed shot in big yellows is a 27 inch range and the hastiest 15 inches. Remember you get plus three to the range And your aimed shot with a 27 inch range is one attack two for the champion So out of the unit of let's say Let's just go all in these can be battle lines. Let's just assume you got nine Let's just do that. Okay. So you've got nine for 360 points That's what you're paying. That's what you're getting you're getting 10 attacks with the champ bonus On twos threes neg one two damage and every six to hit goes directly to mortal or yeah Yeah, six to hit goes directly to mortal wounds And that nine unit is obviously going to be what your swamp collar bonuses right and uh and The uh, then they'll do it on five ups Yep, unless they're in range of the snatch a boss then the six ups do Three more wounds and stuff, right? Yep. So I think I think it's 15 on average From those shots on a 15 mortal wounds that is on average from a unit of nine But it's a it's a cleverly written scroll I Exist Because when when I first read it when we did I imagine many people first read it me and kory pop We're talking about it and he went through the exact same process As I did is that you think oh, you know, I can super super sneaky one unit up I can bridge the other unit up and then I've got What like, you know, they double the attacks then so it's 18 you've got 36 36 attacks Well, you you imagine that but the way that the buffs work And the way that the rule is written means actually you can't You can't shoot the the The hasty shots if you have a move so you can't bridge them for instance and then still get hasty shots Um, you can't if you super super sneaky them off Then you're going to be outside of range of the swamp collar shaman, which is a super weird and restrictive Way that we haven't seen before is that they don't even need to be they can't be hollywood in 12 she can't even like super send them to and Put the swamp collar on the deployment line and have them still hollywood in 12 because one model So really there isn't any way of You know of moving them unless your opponent deploys badly There's no way of getting the the hasty shots in range With all the buffs on in the first turn on not even on one unit really Like depends on some some uh Some battlepans the 18 inch battle plans you could get one unit in range With hasty shots and the buffs, but that's it Um, so it's it's it's cute because I like I do like the way that it's written It forces you to take the aim shots When you take when you've done something like bridge for instance You haven't counted as as moved. So then you you're forced to take the the aim shot and You know, I I guess the way that those shots normally work is that the aim shots The aim shots normally better with with with units like that because you get the better to hit both But with this because you're looking to proc right because you're fishing. Yeah As as have been pointed out, you're absolutely right Like you go for the hasty shot if you can because you're just looking to proc Right, that's what you want. You want to punch straight through to mortals. So more shots is better It's not that you couldn't also like all out attack or whatever. Sure you could I mean like whatever It's fine But ultimately what you're trying to do is throw as many dice as you can to hasty shot if you can Because then the math on that unit of nine right goes to 19 And every five is Two mortals and every six is three mortals and all of a sudden it's like whoa That is very explosive for 360 points Right in that 15 inch range Yeah But it changes so like the way the way the rule is written like that changes it from it's not an alpha strike army It's a it's a counter strike army Essentially, so it's like that one small little change. I think that that one small change on the Makes that makes all that difference it turns it from being able to do an alpha strike with you know If you could alpha strike with two units of those The army would just be beyond busted um, but with really really cute and not Incredibly obvious like I think Yeah, as I say I've seen a lot of people on twitter been cruel boys bulk spam, but You know like it it isn't the powerhouse that you think it is initially because of the way the rules are written and and the Restrictions side of them like like I think it is weird The swamp caller one where you need the model one model within three, but the unit holy We haven't seen anything As quite as restrictive there, but it just means it just means that you can't be Is Still getting that swamp caller the swamp caller buff You can still easily get the the swamp the The snatch your bosses in range because you've got brown traits. You've got the span So if you do if you are teleporting them off Super sneaking them off some other part of the board the chance so you can probably get the Snatch of boss in range So you still do the mortal wounds on on sixes, but you wouldn't be doing them on fives because you'd be at a range of the swamp caller Yeah, I mean my answer is right now like I get what you're coming from Benjamin and I know that you're not as hot on the power of the bolt boys as I think has been common knowledge And I I see certainly the points you're making But I'll tell you man The damage these guys put out for what is in the end of relatively low investment right now Now they are fragile like let's be fair these dudes are fragile Right even nine of them. It's like 18 wounds on a six up save So like let's just be real about what we're talking about here. Okay But at the same time It's so many mortal wounds Right. Yeah, like two units of nine Is not an unreasonably large investment And out of that you're gonna get You know, I mean depending on how your swamp call us and you know where your dudes are at You're gonna get somewhere like 20 to 28 mortal wounds at range Probably Right, that's probably the math on that. I haven't I haven't like thought about it in all the different weird overlapping synergies But that's a lot man Like that's a lot of mortal wounds to just put in the face of the enemy Right and so much of that like most of that's not caring about negatives to hit to some degree right Like You know like all of their utility heroes are just dead If you want them to be right, yeah and so And and my other problem is because the this is made worse by the fact that That gut repas are so incorrectly pointed right now And they're your only battle line Right, so the the comparative is like well, I'm either taking these guys Or gut repas right like those are my only two choices like I got to have one of two of these things in my army Yes, that's it yeah And Because gut repas are so incorrectly pointed being off by I don't know probably 20 points Maybe 25, maybe 30 Right Yeah, minimum. Yeah, minimum 20, but yeah could be you could go lower Right the the point is it just feels so It feels so incorrectly balanced right now that it's like well The shooting is really powerful. Yes, it's fragile, but it's really powerful And I haven't invested a huge amount of my army like I mean seven or points to seven or points I'm not saying it's nothing But like Man for 20 to 30 mortal wounds that feels pretty reasonable when I'm going to take a couple other things I was going to take anyways Right like I was going to have the swamp colors. I was going to take the I was going to take Derek Right, so why not? Right Um, I I just feel like right now the incentives are upside down on cruel boys to the fact where like you're going to see a lot of people playing A pretty heavy amount of bull boys Yeah So what do we think around me real quickly while we're getting into this now? What do we think the lists are likely to look like when I've been looking at this? I tend to go to okay. Well, you probably want the sledge raker You want two shamans You want probably around 18 bull boys in some combination if you're not doing gut rippers You're going to have to have three battle lines. So maybe you're like nine six and three. Let's say And I I think and then I would lean into the hop grots for the chaff battle line screen subject to play And not gut rippers and then I think you've got some flecks of like 240 something where maybe you do the vulture Or maybe you do something else I mean the argument for the vulture is cutting down the battle shock potential, which isn't I mean it could be an issue on 96 let's say or if you have two two nines But maybe more importantly unleash hell you can double tap unleash hell With uh with the vulture and how it works. Yeah Which means you're not like if you're not a way to shut down unleash hell with them You're not going into them in terms of that little castle there But that that's kind of where my brain has been at least in terms of a more heavy shooting list What do you guys think? Yeah, I mean so jacob just shared his list, which is two by six bolt boys 20 gut rippers Two swamp college generic lizard generic bird three by 10 hop grots So, you know some version of kind of what you just said something like that I've I forgot about the killbows that that's the final piece. Yeah two killbows. Yeah, sure. I've seen um, I've seen the 21 Shooting list right 993 Right and then you you forego the gut rip is completely and you just use the hop grots as as screens You know only maybe that's backed up with a killbow or two. Maybe not right um And then yeah like generic bird generic derrick um generic derrick. Yes uh Yeah, I mean That's it's some mix like that right is kind of where people will probably land right now. There's there's I think Go ahead go ahead benjamin, please And I was just gonna say I think it's a basically I think that's the exact list is I think you go six you go nine 333 though with the 18 because just just forgetting the extra the extra shot from the the hero and Also, you're only probably going to be buffing the one you I don't I don't know whether given up the swamp callers Spell is good enough on a unit of six, especially if you're not doing hasty shots Which means you can probably you know, you can definitely get away with doing two then if you were Two units of nine you'd need three I think um Then At least I was writing we're just running for you As the screens I think they're absolutely incredible for 80 points because they're not battle line So they're not giving up. They're not giving up a battle tactic Um, each my friends I've been trying to tell everybody in a local community. They've been crapping on hop grots No, I agree. I Yeah, I think hop grots are actually really good. Um, yeah, we'll we'll get to them I think they're I think they're a sneaky Solid thing that should be part of a a lot of army construction. Yeah, I completely agree. I'm glad to hear We got three hop grot fans in this in this chat right now. Yeah I I've got 60 of them and we'll be using probably most of them in most of them in most lists I think it's it's it's another it's another aos aos three thing Uh, I don't think has has become as obvious as As why it seems to me it should be In that there's so much value in little you that that aren't battle line Right. They can't give up broken ranks. Yep. Absolutely. Yes Or or the new things we've talked about because a lot of the new by the way we when we're saying like broken ranks Keep in mind a lot of these books are printing battle tactics that are like pick a battle line unit That's under these conditions, right? And then you can get there's like most of these books and the white dwarf articles are having Secondary kill a battle line battle tactics Yeah, right And so you you're potentially stopping not just two but four battle tactic points with with the hop cross They don't give those up. So yeah All right, be skewer kill bow. This is the big old bow again. He's got a hasty shot or a name shot this time It's one each Meg to rent this guy is one for 130 points. I think that sounds right. I'll stop. I am correct. They're right. Yes one for 130 That's right The it's the same sort of thing if you don't normal move you use your aim shot blah, blah, blah It would get long longer range and big yellows all that kind of thing Um, it is and then your your damage characteristic is two plus Effectively a third of the targets Wound characteristic max 12. Is that a fair way to think about that? Mm-hmm Right because you you roll a number of dice you put to their wounds characteristic and every five up adds one to the damage. So There you go Um, yeah So two plus a third of their wounds characteristic and I like all like all of them because they have been across weapons They can go to sixes. We'll we'll pass straight through to mortals. So that could be a potentially big mortal hit So do you guys rate the risk reward with these you're paying 130? You know the risk part in particular that three up to wounds I mean anything with one shot, you know, we know that goes even if you're on twos and twos Sure You're gonna have that time we roll that one and certainly you're gonna have a time where you roll the one or two On the on the wound roll and all the sequel. I mean I was thinking about something crazy like Six heroes or even maybe just as your second enhancement I'd have to look and you know, maybe try and go very low points for double triumph Double inspired just that you'd have two shots Maybe at twos to wound to try to push through in certain matchups But I don't know. What do you guys think in terms of the risk reward? Or would you would you include these guys on your list? Yes, one It is worth it for one Yeah, because there's too many things like it's the mega hit is too is too appealing The ability to hit a mega and just do like 12 damage or or even 12 mortals, right? Like it's it's just like that's a huge part of the meta. They're very popular right now There's lots of 16 18 wound heroes out there like one of these just has Just value right sure it's gonna miss sometimes But sometimes it will like pay off it has such a huge top end of what it might achieve That it's just worth it because yeah, it's 130 points. Again, it's not battle liner I think it doesn't give up anything special. It's Like yes, it's it is a it is the classic destruction slot machine But when you come up jackpot jackpot jackpot or whatever, you know, it's just like it is a heck of a payout, right? Yeah And also you get like, you know, if you're not playing against mega gargants or I think with a big juicy monster You only need to spike You know like a five wound hero you need to roll to five six wounds and instead so Uh, there's a good chance that you can be just you know in the games where you're not shooting at big juicy targets You're just picking up some more you know, there's all support heroes with it and if you know, even if he you know He doesn't he only rolls one five and just for damage You've got a unit of three bolt boys then who can just finish it finish it off Yep. Yeah, it's good points. Yeah. I think I think one no more no more than one now. I think it is too it is too situational Yeah, okay. I I rate one a hundred percent All right, the marsh crawl a slog off Uh, our little dobby friend, um, who has an error right now in his war scroll And that he doesn't have the cruel boys keep word and so technically cannot be included in the army Obviously an error which will get corrected um, but um He has auric war clans grot traugas all that kind of stuff Um, I assume he'll get cruel boys. He's 12 wounds on a four up save. Uh, not a monster uh, important to note Uh, and then his melee is more or less There It exists Uh He can like slay a model. He has a little pick and kill He can regenerate and really you're taking him because he has a plus one to hit rolls for attacks made with melee weapons By friendly units that are wholly within 18 inches of any friendly units with this ability Um, interesting that that is not keyword locked in any way So if the guy is taken as an ally, he can give plus one to hit over in gloom spite He can give plus one to hit in everybody in Uh, big wall and so on, you know, yeah Um, so he's he's interesting. Um, our marsh crawler slug earth is 150 points What do you what do you rate him there gentlemen? I don't really see him in a pro boys list No, me neither Yeah, absolutely Yeah, and I mean even in a in a big wall like it's more enticing Yet at the same time as we discussed you're pretty quickly getting you should be pretty quickly getting to that plus one to hit Anyway on the table. Yeah, and so I'm not sure you're getting sufficient value in that regard anyway with him in big wall Yeah, yeah, my argument is you're going to see this guy more often in uh, gloom spite gets armies Then you're going to see him in oracle armies like he's going to show up in some gets armies Uh, uh, like he has a big old bubble of plus one to hit with a grot keyword Um, and the trawler got the keyword Who bonuses all their stuff like he's going to show up in some grot armies. That's going to happen All right gentlemen, uh I'm going to step away for like two seconds. I apologize, but we're at the point where I'm going to die otherwise So, but I'm going to let you guys I have swamp collar shaman and gut rippas up And these are two things that behoove a lot of discussion So take them through like how the swamp collar thing works and lua the casting and the gut rippas and let's have the gut rippa discussion I will be right back Okay, cool. So Benjamin will start with uh, swamp collar shaman So we've got Obviously, mostly it's about the poison and and alexia is with this guy As we've already discussed you cannot do both spells and the poisons Uh, the start of the hero phase. So it's also an important trigger start of the hero phase This unit is more than three from all enemy units instead of attempting to spell etc You can pick a crowboys unit, uh, holy within 12. So it's pretty good range It's not too bad to do this It has to let's see more that unit has to be more than three away from all enemy units and Then the let's see if you do a poison and to next hero phase. That's what trigger least What's that? Like it just it does need to be at least Within it one model needs to be at least within three inches of him as well Absolutely. Yeah within three inches of him. Yeah Yeah, it's like three three three stipulations rather than just being holy within that's true. Yeah, I'd miss that little part there at the end Yeah, that's critical as well Yeah, yeah, and you can't do both of them So you got to pick one of the other if you do the poison, which probably most people are going to be doing Yeah, or we're discussing it towards the six of us uh, trigger the mortals into fives and modified fives to hit And then the what is the other one here? Let's see If you give the elixir add one to save rolls for attacks to target the unit to your next hero phase So, I mean an army of pretty bad saves. I don't know. What do you think? Probably never doing that one It's not going to do it. Are you and and also It's just mystic shield, isn't it? I didn't so yeah, I mean obviously you could you could stack them if you if you were going that Who spells just to give plus two to a unit that's only on a five plus save anyway because the only thing you're going to use it on Yeah, absolutely It's just mystic it's just mystic shield, but more restrictive and I guess you get it for free, but you still need to the stipulations, right? You're not gonna you're going to be using the poison every time. Yeah, definitely Yeah, he does a little bit of work in combat, but I mean two attacks three is three is minus one rend d three I'm not probably not going to do much math wise I'm in buggy miss the spell isn't too bad casting belly of seven God until your next hero phase add one to charge rolls for cool boys oric units on the battlefield and subtract one from charge Rolls for other units on the battlefield I I mean that's I mean situational, but you know anytime you get a potential minus one to charge rolls across the entire battlefield That's not too bad. Again, though. It's on a seven. You know all these seemingly are on sevens with no ways to bonus Yeah, I mean that's the yeah, that's the that's the problem is a lot of in spells With no spell cast No cast spell casting bonuses in the army tackle and then the the trade off Your the ability on your war scroll is better than the spells But it is a it is a good spell, but also gob gobspring So like if you're doing if you were doing something You know disappearing act to get rid of screens and some monsters fought Uh the plus one, you know and especially with On unit outside nine back a combo quite nicely with Uh cast it a little bit, you know put someone on the Put someone on the line cast the cogs a little bit further up to charge with Again plus two to charge then with with some potential rewolds So I could see you some you know if you're not running gobspring I can see some you know a potential first term where you might use You might use that spell instead of the the elixirs And just because maybe you it's not the elixirs on as on as valuable on monsters because got much less attacks And maybe you just shoot them off in the hero face then Before you even get to that point, uh I mean, I would let yeah, I love that idea if you had a way to as you said have make that reliable I mean it's been a time on cogs to talk my language now That's that's still you know By by those stumps folks but yeah, so All right, I think that what 120 for the shaman I'm right. He's 105 actually 25 They swamp call a shaman and park grot is 105 105 oh, wow You can definitely 42. I think you I think you'll see two You know most every list really because he's filling in You know, he's filling in one of the core battalions then he's filling in Mandantara them um And then you can you can alternate then as well in you know one can be cast in what one term You're giving the elixir if you've only got you know, for instance one unit and nine balls Is all you know 20 gut rippers or something where the only we've got one target where you Where you want to put that on at least then you've got the second guy who can be cast the spell right? Yeah, I agree at that point cost. It's very reasonable to take two. I mean this guy's a You know good enough for wizards what he has and the nice part is I here's what I'll say about the alternate to the spell casting thing This guy does always have a role to do something like he's always doing something unlike the stupid iron jaws wizard Right because you can run into magic matchups where you're like, well, I'll never get my spell off And by the way, this guy's a pretty good spell as you as you guys were discussing, right? Like but some in boggy mist is a pretty darn good spell Um, but like you can run into those magic matches where you're like, oh, okay I guess I just don't get to cast spells here because you're up against a spell dom and it's like who cares I'm still going to derive the value from this guy Right through either that's through the elixirs the potions and and honestly like I would probably Here's the thing I would probably take those two bonus bonuses that he can give with the elixirs and the potions even if this guy wasn't a spellcaster That's the trend. Yeah Yeah for 105. Yeah on like a six wound hero. I like that he's six wounds too I really really love the difference between a five wound hero and a six wound hero It's the smallest difference, but boy does it often matter a lot Um, so anyways to what degree there's an argument for just skipping the shamans and investing more into bolt boys in 105 versus 120 I think the bonus is too huge as to what he adds like the way it pops off the mortal wounds is such a mathematically huge difference And his point costs right now are cheap Yeah If you're not running any units of nine, then then maybe you wouldn't because you go in MSU anyway So you get in the extra shot Which will probably probably balance it out over seven or eight units maybe This course. Yeah, that's that's a good point. Yeah, the big unit of nine Yeah, certainly you're getting a lot of good mathematical value out of that But I just kind of looked at the numbers in terms of yeah, like the differences between just running more bolt boys I mean it moves it a lot just ask any lumeneth player Yeah, sure. That's a good point. You know because it's it's just lumeneth ability 2.0, right except yeah, whatever Sorry. Yeah, uh, all right. Did you guys talk gut rippas already? All right Got rippas, you know two wounds five up save two inch reach on the weapon that they come with in the dominion box set And the one you're probably going to build them with so they can actually function Because they're on relatively big bases for what they are Um as we've talked about a hundred times, you know, they're they're 180 points I mean you are getting 20 wounds for 180 points with them Um, they get their bravery five they go to six with their banner Uh, they do get plus one to charge because they're musicians So they do have like the good musician sort of good, but I would expect out of that banner stuff And they their little ability of scare tactics, which is an ability I absolutely hate because it's it's one of those things I just absolutely despise The start of the charge phase of this unit is more than three inches from all enemy units You can pick one enemy unit within 12 inches of this unit that is not a hero or a monster So it's already quite restricted And then rule 2d6 add one to the roll for every five models in this unit At least they have some minor bonus. So if you're taking them in 10s, you get plus two all right Like I would I would I mean a unit of three a six or sorry I have 30 of these will definitely probably get this off even against very high bravery armies But even if it's not automatic, it shouldn't say definitely probably it's then a 50 50 chance. That's the number Um, and if it's equal to or greater than the bravery characteristic of that enemy unit Subtract one from hit rolls for attacks made by that enemy unit that target this unit until the end of that turn You know the problem is in 10s It's just like oh my god. That's a lot Of points to get like that's an ability that you're like well There's a lot of bravery 10 stuff in the game And it's just basically never going to work, you know, because you got to roll an eight To hit it with a unit of 10. It's not impossible, but it's not the it's certainly not the likely outcome In which case it doesn't have it's a scroll with no rules whatsoever, right there's matchup Yeah Well, we've said a lot about this we we all know the problems with this unit g w please drop the points They're way too high right now I the first list one of the first list I wrote. I think it was the snatch boss and sledge raker the break a boss on trogoth 20 gut ripas the idea of trying to have three unbat pieces where you could at least once per game potentially lean into the wall Set out with I think there were 12 bull boys and what a combination you want 2 by 10 screens in the hub grots and a couple of kill bows I like your argument for only doing one kill bow. So that's another unit of bull boys So 15 bull boys, let's say, you know right there in that list. I mean I it's not amazing But I could at least see some potential play in a combined arms list like that I'd love to try that over a number of games and see what I can do In terms of like trying to sequence it well and I just I don't know it's covering a decent number of bases If certain things can happen Particularly the wall because that's decent output potentially on those three pieces the trogoth The sledge raker and 20 ripas with a five, you know two inch reach 20 of them It's what 41 attacks fives doing mortals I mean, maybe they're not all alive by the time that they get in but Is it yeah, yeah We should point out that like they can do work with the venom across the weapons if they get the swamp call of bonus They're not it's not like this unit is terrible. Okay. Yeah, their special ability is largely superfluous, which is a shame Right You wish it was something But they can do damage Like, you know, if the if the if the shaman gives them a little potion Then then you're good. All right. They they can they can get there Um, the plus one to char the drummer is nice as well because that does again We speed up the you speed up cogs casts the the mist And they're on a plus three to charge and you could even potentially Be putting things like bridge in the list then at that point Yeah, bridge in you units of 20 it was around. I know I've been thinking about bridge as well. Yeah. I mean at least that is on a six It's What is bridge right now at 7800, right? I don't know. I think 60 I think oh did okay. I thought it was 100 for some reason. Okay. All right Okay, that's not too bad Uh, elect man says are they the only battle line outside of boat boys in big yellows? Yes, they are And jacob sims says 20 is surprisingly. Okay. Keep on playing them Um cruel boys deployment is so important movement too. Yeah, I mean I yeah, I think that they're I I do think they're not a bad scroll They have a bad rule, but I think the scroll has a lot of good bones I just think it's literally a points issue right now That boat boys are slightly too cheap and gut repairs are slightly too expensive Like it's just it's just the world we live in right now. It's a points problem Which isn't a bad place to be good by the way because that can be corrected pretty easily Right, so That's that's fine. Um, yeah, Benjamin. You're right bridge is 70 So there you go. Yeah. Yeah, okay. All right swamp boss scum dreck. So this is our our named guy Uh What is everybody feeling on the named guy? Are we are we just like no we want to get to the the the non named guy Is that the is that what we're The only difference is that he has that stupid extra There's no point if we read it out, uh, right. Yes. So swamp boss scum dreck. I'm not gonna you're obviously right I'm not he's 320 compared to the regular sled raker beast 315 So they are about the same point cost, but obviously he's unique So hence can't take items and all of that type of stuff, right? Uh, and yes, he has this bet master ability that relies on hobgrod units existing and then you like playing the shell game where the exact right unit dies first and And anybody can just deny that if they want or whatever to a point like accidentally is basically what I would say And and then All is is a triumph. And then yeah, you get an extra plus one to win once a game. Yes Um, yeah, I like regular derrick better. Um, we'll get to him in a moment. All right. So gobsprac the mouth of gork Um, so gobsprac is 300 points even Is a monster Is a totem by the way. Oh, I didn't mention by the way earlier. This was a thing that totally slipped my mind The regular mega boss on foot has the totem keyword now So even if he's not the general his use two commands is 18 inches not 12 all the time. Yeah Which is super cool. Yeah, those are cabbages. Yeah, they've got it too. Yeah So anyways gobsprac the mouth of gork. He has all the keywords. He gets them all Um, he's a big old wizard. He has 14 wounds on a five up save in melee. He's like Not very good. Let's just be honest here, right? He's okay He's okay. He can do a little damage But now for his points, he's like he's certainly not a combatant, but he has a two cast to unbind wizard uh and Uh, you know, obviously he flies. He's on a big bird Um, he has more says no each time this unit unbinds a spell the caster suffers d3 mortal wounds If the spell was unbound with an unbinding roll of 10 plus the caster suffers d6 mortal wounds instead He has the mouth of morc. If this unit issues the redeploy command to a cruel boys unit You can reroll the die that determines the distance the unit that uh receives moves, which is Like a really really good Because there is no worse thing than rolling the one on a redeploy and this, you know Minimizes the chances that you get a one pretty greatly Uh, and then the if the unit issues the unleash hell command to a cruel boys unit You do not have to subtract one from the hit rolls for the attacks made by the unit that receives this command So, okay cool He's got a ward save of six up um And then once per game, he can use his screaming mandrake where once per battle when this unit attempts to unbind a spell You can say that is using a screaming mandrake if you do so he rolls 3d6 instead of 2d6 Increasing the chance that you proc back at d6 mortals, right or or definitely get the unbind for a d3 Yeah I mean to state the obvious where the hell is this guy's plus one to cast a spell and unbind there we go. There it is There it is I mean, that's that's why I can't bring myself to put him in a list Like I get he's got some nice utility He's potentially he's a A reason to give you're giving your opponent a reason to not risk casting in certain matchups You know his potential to do 2d3 with his unbinds One reliably with the once per game I just don't think you know with how I mean you're always star for points with every list and trying to squeeze the most out of it Are you going to drop 320 for this guy without any bonuses to cast when this is the caster? I would also point out. He is a bravery six hero. So he's almost impossible to heal himself Right. Oh, yeah Yeah Yeah, like five up six up, huh? It's a 90 pound model. That's not a 90 pound war scroll That's my biggest issue with it. I'm not paying 90 pound for that It needs a 90 pound war scroll because the model's fantastic. It's so good but I don't think we're gonna see it that often because like You get the value like, you know archae on teclis or Has a hundred pound war scroll worth It's worth it on the table as well. So Yeah, that's just yeah for me. I think that's I mean that's a that's a barrier So I don't want to spend night on that. He's gonna die in the first turn. He's only got five Yeah, I like Jacob. Absolutely. That's amazing. Yeah, I like Jacob Sims take here. Hey man We all came to the same conclusion. Here's what I told everyone if you want to take him because he's the big man He's okay just not the better option Like if you like him because he's cool and because he is the big name dude in this don't feel bad about taking him It's not that he's horrible It's just he's a fragile piece and you know, he is what he is, right? Like he's probably you're gonna be hard-pressed to get his 300 points out of him to get your 90 pounds back Okay, uh break a boss on mire brute trogoth Uh, all right. So dude who's riding the troll? 12 wounds for up save again not a monster Uh, I feel it didn't I feel it necessary to point this out Um, the big troll is a mount hence his iron bound clubs will not benefit from venom and crusted weapons here Okay Uh, but uh, this guy can actually do some pretty significant damage Uh, so at the start of the combat phase you can say the breaker boss is yanking on his trogoths harness If you do so this unit suffers d3 mortal wounds, but for each mortal wound You add two attacks to the characteristic of the iron bound clubs until the end of that phase Meaning that the sort of average outcome is that you end up at eight attacks on You know, let's just call it threes and threes You could use other things as well to buff that obviously, but you could end up on threes and threes Eight attacks threes and threes neg to three damage each It's a lot of damage on good rend like that is What it is and this dude's 180 points Uh, and you can stick a arcane tome on him and give him flaming weapons. Yeah. Yeah, he sure can Yeah, I had that combo Yeah, all that attack and his birthday as well So like you got a 33 percent chance of doing 10 attacks at twos and twos minus two rend for damage That's spicy for 180 pound 180 point Yeah, I I mean say pound for pound this guy is Where where the money's at just I really like this guy Yeah, yeah, I think I think it's a good value of war scot really isn't it so yeah He's slow like the five inch move slow Okay, we all we all accept that We all like yep, let's all get on board with the fact that yes, he's slow Okay So you could take a mount trait as well. He can take a mount trait. Yes all the ones that say non Uh, that don't say monster he can take right? Oh, okay. Yes, right remember some of them say monster now ironically fastin does not so you could sneak that extra five inch move out of him I've probably better uses in the world But yes, he can take a mount trait. Um I mean, that's you know, like that's there's some not terrible stuff as options by the way on there for him even with the non monster ones um So he is slow, but again On the new smaller boards with redeploy as an option. I've been amazed how much easier So like I was playing with the mega boss on foot. I one of the I played Yeah, I did two games with the iron joe so far and one of them. I didn't use any maw crushes Okay, intentionally I built a non maw crush list because I wanted to challenge myself, right? First of all the amount of bodies you get in a non maw crush list is insane like it's just nuts, dude It is nuts. How much iron joss are on the table like it was what are you going to do with all that meat? You must have had like 180 wounds. It was nuts. Yes. Yes. Exactly. It's madness okay, and But I took two mega bosses on foot right just the regular foot mega boss. Those are those are my two guys And they're like four inches as their movement and you know what? Now given I had mighty destroyers when I needed it for them But look honestly, they weren't often the target of mighty destroyers because they can only get double up, right? And it usually was other units. I was needing to move around So that dude was mostly just Running behind things, but then late game guess what he did He was in there, right? Like you could get there like I'd redeploy him cheekily He'd run every so often and then boom. He was up and in the mix right So You know, I'm not I don't think it's as crippling to to have the five inch move as it used to be. That's what I'll say and I was gonna say Vince. I had this guy. I think he's In my mind intriguing for egomaniac If you build a list where you're not leaning into a super sneaky Just help keep him alive before sure and that's how we can get in and do some work He's interesting for egomaniac. Yes, he is like super sneaky plus fasten is a funny build Because then you can put him You can trigger the super sneaky where you deploy him nine away and then fasten him is five up and now it's only a four inch charge So like, you know, there is funny things you can do there with him to like get him around where he needs to be um, but yeah He's he's at 180 points. He's worth experimenting with well Right, I think you can still move off the super sneaky as well as it's Uh, you can move after you do super sneaky. Yes. Yes Hobgrot slitters, I think a lot of people are pooping all over these guys I'm excited about them. Not only because do they herald the inevitable release of a chaos dwarves plastic range, which is absolutely what they're doing Like let's not kid ourselves here Working for their chaotic dwarven masters. It's like, oh, okay Got it Right, but yeah, man. These guys are great. Ten of them for 80 points. They are not battle line as has been discussed Um, but they have a little funny missile weapon attack that has rend with their little scrap right, um They uh They can run and shoot Yep built in on the scroll which is fantastic Um, they have reroll battle shock, which is comically hilarious since there's their bravery four Okay, so like whatever if they take wounds they all die. Who cares? That's not the point, right? Um But and then their little slit of knives are like have sixes or double taps because they don't get the venom encrusted weapons So, you know, they have a little replacement rule Yeah, they're fine They're they're great for what they are ultra cheap pretty mobile throw a little damage around chaff Yeah, yeah I like which is exactly what Exactly what the army needs as well. I mean Be great if they're a little bit faster, but I still think yeah, they're value at 80 like i'm I don't think I haven't wrote a list without 40 of them at least in at the moment Yeah, I just think they're they're fantastic value. I really do Um, you know as somebody who like obviously benjamin, you know and tyler, you know That like scaven is one of my other loves, right and having just cheap Units like this that you can throw around and get in the way and go hold objectives and do annoying crap Right like night runners and gutter runners and stuff is is incredibly valuable Yeah, even more so in this edition as well because they eat unleash house They're just in all the unleash house your units of 30 centinals or deembow snakes are just Shooting 10 hobgrots off. You don't care and then you charge them with your sludge your sludge breaker or your myabrew or what? Break like there's so much value in that as well now that You're cutting out. Yeah, we cut out a little for a while. It's kind of cutting out a little bit. Yeah But yeah, man, uh, Benjamin, do you know offhand if they are 25s or They have the weird 28 point something. Are they 25s? They are 25s. Okay. Good. All right Because some of these things that have been on these like 28.5 millimeter bases that you know breaks obviously the the stringing out But yeah, yeah, they're good. They're perfect perfect perfect screening you Yep, yep They they're doing a roll multiple rolls. Absolutely All right Uh, now our now for Derek The snatch of us on uh, sludge raker beast 14 wounds four up save Uh, this guy is as I said earlier 315 points um I like this guy a lot His main weapon is pretty good at damage three He's he's kind of you know neg one down the line until you get to the big ball the tail Which is only two attacks on threes and twos He does have a big by the way, please continue structuring all random things like this Why aren't more random things structured like this? Like his noisome bite is like d3 plus three Oh, yeah, right. Can we move away from d6 and just use d3 plus three from now on that would be super great Um, you know, that would be nice um He adds one to the number of mortal wounds caused by the venom encrusted weapons battle trait If the unmodified hit roll was six and the attacking unit is wholly within 12 of any friendly units with this ability Um, do note that this is only on the six So if you expand as they as they say here clearly excellent use of a designer's note to pre answer in f aq right Uh, and say no if it's on a five you would still do the normal number on a six you would get the plus one Uh, which is great and then, um The uh important the there are two other really important things to mention about him Which is one the venom encrusted weapons actually applies to the sledge raker beasts scrapling talons and noisome bite Even though it is a mount which is cool um So that's that's nice Um, and the he has a little snatch and grab which once per battle at the end of the combat phase You can pick one enemy model that has a wound's characteristic of seven or less Does not have a mount and is within three inches of this unit roll 2d6 If the roll is greater than that enemy model's wound's characteristic. It is slaying Pretty nice ability to just if somebody's foolish enough to let you get this guy within three inches of their utility hero That thing is just dead instantly pretty pretty Pretty strong numbers to just insta kill a five wound hero on foot It's also breaking coherency at the end of the combo Yep Fold in as well. Yeah Which is crazy like that. You know that could That could kill another four or five I know I mean that yeah, that's one of the best abilities for crawl boys that I think that they've got going Yeah, just in terms of the potential of that He's great Like I love everything about him every single bit about that scroll and the point the points cost everything like There's there's there's no Yeah, like the The damage output on this guy in terms, you know, four of save just the average damage relative to the point value He's pretty he's just a little under a cabbage In terms of assessing, you know relative to the points value of 14.12. We had him hear my friends on his sheet Against four of saves. So yeah, really really solid Yeah, he's good Can take artifacts as well. Yeah Can be a gem you can take the command trait for running charges. We discussed earlier If uh, if you go in that route, which could be useful on him to be honest You probably put the amulet on him as well Do you guys see list going double? Sledge raker May they only list or or maybe combined arms or shooting heavy going double or Yeah, I could see it to be honest. Yeah, because you could do yeah doing a combined arms. You have one at the back seat boys Um, and then one yeah one going forward And he would be one of the options for you three as well. So you do maybe him and myabrew and The killer boss on on dog as your three things that you're going to send into war I think between the three of them they could pump out quite a bit of damage really and that and you know that whole package there is What happens is that the dog 170 300 My boots 180. Yeah, so it's only like seven Yeah, again, it's it's a relatively cheap little efficient package and it works well with the law So I agree like I think you could in melee focus or a mixed arms I think you could you could justify there's the potential to justify the double the double Derek. Um, I really do Um, or I think the only other list I put him in a double Is if you just run in msu MSU boat boat boys just so you've got a bigger A bigger range for the buffs or you can separate on two sides of the board then I think that that like that would just be if you were like literally just spamming like you put those two in right Swamp the swamp caller maybe and then just everything else Yep, so yeah only three's as well For me, this is one of the main standouts of the entire cruel boys line so far Yeah, great the point value super cool model. I haven't talked about it a lot But a lot of these models are actually really cool. I really like this model and I think he's uh, Like he's he's a great all-arounder What's that 34? That's value for 34 pounds. You're getting 34 pounds. We're the war scroll here for sure. Absolutely Yeah, get two of those That's still any 60% of the the cost of the bird. Yep all day All right, uh the killer boss on uh on the vulture. So this is the non unique melee vulture guy Um, he is 240 points 14 wounds on a four up save again like decent ish damage profile Uh Now again just like the other dude um The beak and flesh-sharing talons and a stinger The venom encrusted weapons battle trait applies to attacks made with a corpse Rip of vultures beak and flesh-sharing talons and its stinger even though it is amount. So his whole profile gets the The venom encrusted weapons, which is cool. So he does have some chance to push through some significant order wounds He has the like breakup boss's ability to to minimize battle shock And he has commanding view, which is probably the reason you've actually taken this guy So commanding view you can use the same command ability more than once in the same phase If you pick the unit to issue the command If you sorry if you pick this unit to issue the command This unit still cannot issue more than one command in the same phase Any unit cannot receive more than one command in the same phase. So obviously what you can do there is First of all, you could you know, you could like double rally or something like that um But But you can double only shell, right? I mean that's that's what everybody's been talking about you can As long as both units are meet the criteria are within nine you can double only shell Right, you can't just pull ready. You can't randomly pick another bull boy's unit That's on the back of the board to start shooting or something that's nowhere near but but you can do it twice So yeah, is that I mean I agree that that's me is what stands out about this guy Obviously, it might potentially be only losing one model to battle shock might be nice if you're running some gut ripples But we talked about the problems there. So yeah, it's all about the commanding view Relative to the other options though And I mean we've been talking about the sledge raker and the mirebrood chargoth. It's got some play shamans Can you find the points for this guy in list? I'm skeptical that he's going to be in list I don't know those other options. I don't know. Is he Okay, yeah, I think he's competing against the dude on On beast to some degree right because they're they're both killer bosses And points wise he has 70 points more expensive, but he's also like a He's much more mobile, but he's not quite as tough. That's the challenge, right? The difference between the four up in the three up is a big difference But that commanding view is like a pretty good ability So I don't know Yeah That'd be curious here if anybody's you haven't been running. Oh, yeah, go Benjamin I think actually listening to you guys know he is better gave him credit for I think in the beginning that Having that killer boss ability in the arm Is that yeah, there there is There is definitely legs in that Um, and he is cheap like he is cheap for for his profile really Yeah Yeah, I think I think as as Tyler said, it's he's just competing against too many of the slots And I don't think he's doing it. You know, so I think he needed one more rule or scroll there to To really differentiate him and Different role Yeah, he's yeah what what saves him for me is he's not that expensive for A monster of his size and capability, right? And again, he is also a totem and all that like, you know, he's He's useful like 240 is not a bad level of investment for something with this stat profile Sure, that's that's why I think I think the point value is fair. Yeah for what he's what he's bringing to the table. Yeah Yep I've had a hard time fitting him in the list Just with the other options and yeah, he just hasn't quite he's like on the cusp of making the cut But yeah, be curious and comments Live show or or afterwards. Yeah, if anybody's been finding use for him if he's making your way in the list We'd love to see the list Honestly, I could see him in melee heavy Yeah, because this army doesn't have ways to Save themselves from battle shock other than this guy for the most part So battle shock is a real issue with this army as I found out last night. Yep All right kill a boss with stab grout. This is our killer boss on foot six wounds four up This is the guy from the Initial box set again He also has the killer boss ability of all part of the plan against a minimizing battle shock And he has his ability called you hold him off Which lets him basically put a wound onto the step right probably one wound And kill our little friend um the Yeah, I mean he's the cheapest way to get all part of the plan because he's only 110 points Yeah You know, I don't I can't see him in the single Oh, wait. What's that if he's armed with a shield. Oh, okay. He does go to a three plus safe. Yes. Yeah Yeah, I sure said that. Yes. If he's armed with the then his safe characters to become three plus. Yes. Thank you That's a very important thing I left out. Yes. That is super important. He can go up to the free up That this guy cannot Right, even though he's got the shield the one on the vulture is stuck on a four plus The little guy can be on a three plus Hmm, I still don't think you take him that I think I think the argument for if you took him would be If you were building your melee list you were happy with and you needed to sneak that battle shock ability And there's somewhere I didn't have the points for the other two options Sure, then that's where he'd come in and I haven't played around enough with lists to know if that's a reality Right. Yeah, but that's it. Like that that to me is his use That makes sense. Like oh, I've only got 120 points left. Okay. Well, I can't afford the the guy on the break of east, right? So it's this guy That's what it comes out to All right, mercknob with the belcher banner also a dude out of the box set 95 points very cheap six wounds four up save He's okay Is my answer He has his power of crag knows when a friendly cruel boys orc unit Very important as he does not protect hobgrats Okay Holy within 12 of this unit is is affected by a spell or the ability of an endless spell You can roll a die on a five plus ignore the effect of that spell or the effects of that endless spell's ability on that unit I should say that these do stack So if you have multiple merc knobs, they can overlap their banners and give you multiple five ups. It's not a word Um, they are relatively cheap at only 95 points So if you kind of have a couple of them mixed into your lines where they're double affecting certain critical units You want to keep it alive? It means that those units become Very resistant to magic because even two five ups is you know, like has a pretty good chance of happening um So yeah, and then you know, he can at the start of the combat phase You roll a dice for each enemy unit within three edges on a one nothing happens on a two to five They suffer one mortal wound on six. It's d three. So he can do some mortal wounds But really you're taking him for the power of crag knows Again, I think it's tough Um, I can see in this definitely especially like in a team list or something where you were going You know, maybe all msu Or a lot of msu bald boys He would You know, that that list would get wrecked by tech list For instance, like Paul, you know his aoe through a portal Uh, you know something sort of like a Um Would save a hell of a lot of damage coming through I think so I don't think you could be in every list, but I think I think we'll see him I think he's got value. Yeah. Yeah, we talked about the morc side combo with him, which I really like and yeah Yeah, I came up last night. Yeah, he was in my friends list And I was trying to have a blaze the updated war scroll for they have a blaze comma, which I still rate that I mean, I know it's under points. It's not procking multiple times now But you can dispel it in the enemy hero phase, of course and then recast it So I think it's still pretty good value In certain lists. Anyway, I mean he shut down. He kept rolling fives Like he probably cut my output by half with the number fives that do his role in in his castle of cruel boys Um, so yeah, certainly added added some value that game last night Yep. Yeah, I agree. He's situational and less dependent, but you'll see him a little bit. I think yeah, I agree. Yeah Craig knows skip Um, yeah, I mean like I'm sorry. He's just not worth it. He's back up again. He's seven or 20 points Oh my god, he's not worth it. I wish he was but he's not that's what it boils down to like I think the only the only the only list I could see him in is a bonus because they don't have anything else to To fill that role really, right? I mean rogue idle rogue. I love doesn't punch hard enough and is not good enough Without save stacking they miss from the old book So, yeah, I think like the the the the one the one list that I would consider with bones flares Uh, which I still don't I still think is probably only a three two is is a bunch of pigs and And cragnos, I think There you go. Well, sorry craggy. Um, maybe next time. Okay um, speaking of Let's get to the uh, let's round this out. We're in the home stretch boys. I want to I want to end this sometime soon Uh, we have we have officially gone longer than the storm cast With I was talking about the game half the scrolls Okay Uh You're a legend man for doing this with us and staying up so late indeed. I know it's very late where Benjamin is We got it. We got to like The quality of my analysis is definitely suffering a little bit left. That's all right I save the easiest part for last because there's a least to discuss with the the the bone splitters All right. Yes savage big samples Go ahead Go hit me Just before we get into it 12 abilities were deleted 12 unique abilities were deleted from scrolls. There's 10 scrolls So some scrolls had two abilities deleted from them, which Is all the flavor like that's just a ridiculous amount of things to take away and not and not put Almost anything in in return Yeah, the problem with these guys is I'm all for the the type of simplification. I really support our weird Mental taxing things that are like do a thing here and then remember or there's a complicated trigger And it sets up a thing for later and then you've got to come back and use it again Sylvaneth was pretty horrible about this like Sylvaneth In various incarnations have had lots of this sort of nonsense We had to remember all sorts of complex triggers of things happening here and then going there That's the type of stuff. I really don't like because it's things that get forgotten any time you've ever heard somebody go Oh, wait, hold on. I forgot Right if you've ever heard that it's because of an ability written like that, right? and They're like But that's not that's not what a lot of this was that was on them. It just feels like they took I don't know what their their goal was I don't Know that these guys are going to get squatted. I that's a lot of everybody's prediction Is that this is like the first step on the road to squatting. I'm always reticent about that kind of prediction um You know, I I think that they I don't know these guys are probably around for many years at least Maybe fourth edition. Maybe fifth edition or something like that. They go away. Who knows Our 4.0 or 5.0. But but you know They definitely took way too heavy of a hand because they took out abilities that didn't need to go that didn't have that kind of mental tax right, yeah um and uh Tomb King Tristan says Benjamin Uroa Warhammer masochist. He stayed up till 3 a.m to play him on tts. So there you go All right, so savage big stab us four wounds six up save and then When they're slain by an attack made with a melee weapon before this model is removed from play You can pick one enemy unit within three inches and roll a die add two to that role If the enemy unit is a monster on a four plus the enemy unit suffers d3 mortal wounds They make three attacks three threes neg two two damage one of your only sources of rend in the army And reinforcement hit these guys really hard as has been pointed out. They come in a unit of two Two for 80 points, uh, and um They can only go to four Yep, the the glades that I lost were run and charge. Yep, which was obviously great and it was not Aggregious in any way relay I suppose um And they lost the ability to do extra damage to monsters So I think they did a deep extra d3 damage to monsters with the spears. Yep in combat. They lost both of those as well big hits dropped slightly but Yeah, they dropped 20 points Yep, but I think the scroll is just too vanilla without it Like they are and you say two models eight wounds six plus save We're five inch move We've lost the the ability to fly so they can pre they can pregame move but um Yeah, I think I think you're just going to struggle to get them in that they're just so Yep, agreed You can't like You know, I had a unit of those a unit of eight Dutch DT killed Archeon a keeper and Celesk in one activation Which is maybe too powerful, but um, I mean that's it's just The ability to be able to do that much damage In a single turn by layering all the buffs putting everything on them Suping them all up sending them find them You know double move and fly or even triple fly Just completely changed. It's a completely Yep, so are are these on the short list of takes or not? Or your sense of list right now? No, I don't I I don't think so. No. Oh So that's amazing because I mean, yeah, they were one of the all-stars Hmm Okay Yeah, I just don't I don't think they work him like me anyway It's then it mainly it's the delay getting them delivered Where they need to go Right because it's just It's it's very hard to get them where they where you need to have them now That's the problem. They just they get they easily get caught flat footed by things that they don't want to get caught flat footed by right That's the problem Savage orc more boys. They're they're more boys Uh So, you know two and six up save these are the the more boy version as I was saying like you've got sort of these duplicates throughout Like most of this army is made from one kit. It is the I will say they ever didn't get retired Wouldn't be a huge number of kits cut from the line. They're making most of this army out of one kit um So the um, they're three attacks four threes no render and damage So they have the same sort of like the way to think about this. They have the same sort of melee profile as As our boys now, right, but a very different save characteristic Um, they do add one to the attacks characteristic if they charged and that is the end of their special rules Right. Um, they do have built in plus one to charge which is cool Um, and they have the standard plus one to bravery So they can make a lot of attacks Yeah, but then again as soon as you Pass 10. They're only on a one inch range So As soon as you go past 10 that you're not going to get many more of them in and you I mean with the unit of 10 you you might not even get the 10 in um So the you know the extra attacks are attempted with You know, let's say ice bone Obviously the attacks of prokken as well on six is exploding into two hits and then in ice bone You know, you want to be thrown more dice to do more But I just don't think you get enough of the combat and And they lose, uh They lose a save point over the regular boys as well who went to a five plus save. Um So, you know, there's there is still ways of stacking saves in When when you start out on a six plus you're only ever going to be a five plus at best, right? So Yep, yeah, I mean they I should mention here. They are a battle line in drakfoot. So if you're you know If that's your build to negate ward saves, they are another battle line option for you Um, 10 of them for 155 points Okay savage bore boy maniacs, uh, so the bore boy maniacs Uh are five for 145 Effectively they have the bore boy profile right three attacks on four three's no rend and then their little tusks and hooves are three attacks on four's four's no rend um You get the same rule of one to the attacks characteristic of this unit's Uh chompas if the unit made a charge move uh in the same turn and then the tusker charge You had one to hit rolls and wound rolls for attacks made with tusks and hooves if they made a charge move So, you know on the obviously they want to be charging at which point you go four attacks on the guy on top and three attacks at threes and two or sorry threes and threes. I apologize for the for the bore um And they do as well have the plus one to charge built in Uh, I assume you're probably a normal bore boy As opposed to the maniacs, right? Yes, I think so The I mean just the five up save characteristic. What makes such a big difference? Yeah, because there is there's one there's one source of Uh, there's only one source of it now. I think a plus one save. I think it's from the dance But then obviously you've also got mystic shield. You've got all our defense So the five plus save I got a much better chance of going on four plus save and rolling against One or two rend I think sure And yeah, yeah, and they still get the same they still get the tusker charge. They don't get the extra Back I think the most e-damage is going to come from anyway. They'd Say in one profiles because of the the spell that gives extra red. Uh, yep Yep, I think the other one's slightly cheaper as well from there hundred and four Yeah, so the comparison we'll get to him in just a second. But yeah, there's there's a there's a pretty stark comparison here so, um, okay So the savage auric arrow boys to attacks with the sting a bow the only way you get a bonus attack now is if you're in um, bone grins Uh, which which I will say the savage auric arrow boys are They are a battle line. They're a conditional battle line in there. So at least there's that Um, but yeah, I mean, so then they would go to three attacks in that And then if you're targeting a monster your sting of O has a rend of one So, uh, 10 of these for 145 points battle line and bone grins Okay Yeah, yeah We're a long way from the early doors of uh, of of, uh, of the ruck and rolling like millions and millions of millions attacks Yeah, I'd say the the the only one thing in their face that Uh, all out attack You know like you used to be only be able to buff one unit when you when you multiple units You had the spell that gave them plus one to hit Uh, but you could only buff one unit and when they were hitting on fives, they're you know, they're obviously just garbage Then regardless of how you're getting so all out attack does Just move the dial on them a little bit because you can put that on one unit now as well as the right No, because the spell actually don't get it if you You don't get the plus one to hit for shooting from the spell anymore So you kids you still can't only do But at least you don't have to cast it you can do it for free. So sure it's an automatic which is better. Yeah Okay, keep moving the wargog prophet. Oh, here's our new fun guy. All right Uh, he's a build around piece. So there you go. Um, the wargog prophet Is uh 150 points Uh, he is a double caster Which is fun, but he probably won't be doing that Uh So because of other reasons Um He at the start of the hero phase instead of attempting to dispel an endless spell or cast any spells with this unit in that phase You can pick one enemy unit within 12 inches of this unit that is visible to it and roll a die On a three plus that enemy unit suffers d3 mortal wounds If you wish you can say this unit will continue staring at the enemy unit if you do so roll an additional die On a three plus the enemy unit suffers d3 mortal wounds on a one two this unit suffers d6 mortal wounds You can keep rolling until either the enemy unit is destroyed or this unit is destroyed or you talk you Uh, try to stop or you decide to stop So, uh, obviously with the green totemies thingy, whatever it is the The little the little artifact that gives you a four up ward effectively This guy can stare and stare pretty hard and just try to melt somebody We should note this is at the start of the hero phase you make this choice So you don't have the chance to like teleport him around or anything like that first Because it is a start of the hero phase ability But it's a good thing. It does a lot of damage like he can the four upward guy can stare real hard Yeah, yeah that has potential like the the threat of that alone is incredible like that has the potential to spike and do I mean it can also just But I think the the threat of it is massive I really do think that like I think there was another guy in the chat who Who killed 20 20 more talk in a turn with it There was a guy who killed 10 brutes and six pigs over the course of a couple turns as well and this there there are others of Now as well. Yeah, if you stick the glow I think there's a good chance that people will just either completely avoid him or Once you finally get him into place. He should be killing whatever You put him against really. Yeah, he is a mortal wound machine gun. That's for sure. Um, so Yeah uh, all right savage big boss, uh the Hilarity of taking six of these guys is not lost on me Uh, because after this unit has fought the combat phase for the first time You can pick one friendly bone splitters unit that has not yet fought in that combat phase This is then three inches of an enemy unit and that unit and holy within 12 of this unit that unit fights immediately And oh the comedy of having five or six of these guys and just having them run forward like lunatics and then chain activate right in a row Probably accomplishing not a huge amount, but they are six attacks on threes threes neg one two damage. They're not terrible Um, yeah, and this my points. That is cheap now. We come to the magic. Yes, my friend So the mega boss's profile is 140 points, right? He's only got two more attacks other than that's the same profile Right eight attacks on threes threes neg one two damage this guy six But this dude I really like because he is 65 points Crazy For that profile. Yeah, mm-hmm like that's a good attack profile on 65 points. I'm sorry, but it is Yeah, like four of them is only 260. That's 24 attacks at threes threes minus one rend two damage For 260 points. That's pretty good. And they're all attacking first as well Right. They just like one gets in and then the other one's just like yeah boss. Let's do this. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, so you can like legitimately run three or four of these and have a comical thing happen for almost no points Um, I mean if I told you a unit Right, so let's let's imagine the unit. Here we go. This is the unit. Okay The unit is 260 points and the unit makes 24 attacks on threes threes neg one damage to rend Okay Yeah, that's a good unit. Mm-hmm. I'd be like, yeah, that's a pretty decent unit right So i'm just saying it's an option. It's not going to break the world, but it's not terrible Uh, yeah, I would also point out you can you can uh, you can pull this trick in big Wa where they could all be on twos and twos Like your other heroes would be one more chanta and one Um Profit or whatever one were gogg profit, obviously. Uh, so that way you're getting the full You know the two points the one point off the chart bonus Probably one of those is your general and uh You know, they could eventually get up to the point where they're just running around like lunatics Just twos and twos making tons of attacks So It's fun. All right, uh savage Savage oryx the the only thing that we just left the only fun page left in this army by the way Um savage oryx and savage bore boys. Um, the oryx now, this is your base oryx These guys are obviously still battling their 10 models for 165 points. They are still on a five up base save You get plus one to wound rolls for attacks made by this unit if they made a charge move. So you go to um Potentially fours and twos or fours and threes depending on your loadout Uh, and which is not a bad bonus by the way like plus one to wound on the charge is actually pretty good Um, they make a decent addition number of attacks. Uh, they do still have plus one to charge Built into them on there because they're a musician And yeah, they're like there are a lot of wounds. They're 20 wounds for 165 points They're okay Oh, in what world are these guys more points than wardens I don't have an example. I do not have an explanation for you there other than I like it's it's the wounds there It's like it's because of the way their calculator calculates wounds Yeah, it seems like it doesn't it as this book, you know seems to High like that. Yeah, we've got rippers that we've got rip is in these guys. Yeah It's because of how heavily their point calculator calculates wounds, right? Like yes, it takes into account some the quality of the wounds, but they just assume there's a raw value of wounds, which isn't wrong But I think they overweight it that would be my argument. Yeah Like there was a there was a point with with horde discount bonuses when these guys used to be 330 That was like 60 wounds for an extra Well, an extra 40 wounds for an extra 135 points right to be yeah, but I think I think the one of the One of the upsides of the army is the wound the potential wound wound counts, but I think at 165 points you can't burn a unit of 30 of those anymore like that's all I I I understand dear my me going on about warhammer for five hours would be white noise to my wife for sure She just said I watch war briefly when I eat white noise Uh savage war boys. Yeah, I mean, I think this is probably the pick right now between the neg to rend spell Right. And just sort of the other capabilities. They also pair well with some of the other spells They have a good move like they pair well with the plus one to hit spell blah blah blah thing of the Werebore or whatever as well Um, I just love how we randomly decided to insert werebores into this world Okay quick aside what There are werebores in this world Like I know what werebores are from from dnd and love all of the lycanthropic creatures I think like dnd has an amazing menagerie of wonderfully awesome lycanthropes from Werebores and bears and rats and wolves and everything and it's super fun And I love all the different ones and they're different alignments and goals Um, we don't even have werewolves in aos and you're gonna just jump to werebore Like where's that? Where's that at? Where's that army? Where's my werebore transformers? But anyways, that's sorry We we blew past that and I really feel like uh That was it like start Start pushing around that territory gw. Let's let's get good nuts Okay So, uh, I mean it took magic almost 20 years to make a uh, no about 20 years to make a a lycanthrope related set so You can do it too Yeah bore boys, um, plus one to hit and wound for the the the uh with a savage stick Or tusks and hooves if this unit made a charge move the savage stick of being the two inch range weapon that's on fours and fours um So the chompas basically have no Bosses with bonus other than the fact they don't need to charge and they just want better to wound all the time Uh, and they still have plus one to charge built in and they have a 12 bench base move Importantly these guys are battle line in ice bone Which is really nice because they do generate a lot of attacks Hence a lot of potential for mortal wounds, right? So you're making five attacks per model um You know, they're five for 140 as battle line five attacks per model with sixes to wound going automatically to mortals and then lots of chances to To Wind fury totem them to more attacks, right? So so Yeah So Uh, yeah bore boys. Uh, yeah, definitely sense. So so far. I'm hearing wargog prophet four boys And maybe a couple spell as many of the the the 65 point bosses as you can fit in reasonably some bosses Yeah To back to back up overall Benjamin. What what do you think a competitive bone splitter list is going to look like right now? Is it just like going all like as many wounds as possible the tons of bore boys? Yeah, I think it is It's definitely bore boys. I do I do I do think I would put kragnos in Okay, if I was going to do an event. Why not? Yeah, there's nothing there's there's nothing else that comes close to Uh Fill in his rock. I don't really like the rogue idol in there. Any, um But yeah, it would be I would run one potentially two uh gugs. I would be tempted now maybe to three of Three probably three. I know peter was trying out a few Yeah, I I'm a savage or yeah. Oh, yeah Yeah, he had multiple wargog bore boys and he actually had quite a few big stabs and unless he was trying It didn't go all that well, but yeah, yes Yeah, no, I would I would avoid big stabbers. I think I'd put kragnos in in for For the render and the output potential um, and then yeah, you'd just be clogging up the bore with With lots of bores And and you go ice burn probably Yeah, I'd go ice burn and Okay, yeah I mean it's it could go three two with that list, but sure I think he struggles with anything better than three two Yeah, it is sad that all the flavor that's been lost because it was pretty clear That's why a lot of folks like you were playing it in the first place And yeah, it was like a it was a super technical army before really technical Um, I mean the no retreat was was a big part of it. I think it was a big part of what made the army good On I mean still even like in you know just in the monster The monster ghp of the monster edition the monster hunter army becomes the not monster hunters. Yeah, it's the weirdest choice. Yeah Yeah, yeah, all right. Let's get through these last couple scrolls guys before we hit five hours Let's do this. Okay. Here we go. I I I need to call it a night at some point. I love you both, but But we gotta we gotta wrap this up okay Maniac weird knob on the mount. He's your one cast wizard He is on a mount so he can take the non monster mount traits, which is funny On me on his little bore he can go right around and take those little things like he can do a fast and actually You know potentially reposition once again His bone spirit spell casting by seven range of 12 pick one friendly bone splinters unit Holy within range invisible to cast her to your next hero phase add one to wound rolls for attacks made with melee weapons By that unit so decent enough buff but hard to cast on a seven and he has his little tusker charge And then the war doc our old friend the war doc our little dancer our private dancer our dancer for money Instead of casting he's also a wizard obviously, but instead of casting He can attempt to do a dance. He can dance if you want to He can leave all your friends behind and just he dances. Uh, so you can do still has his three dances. Um, Which are all of Yeah, they're fine. Um You know, they're just the same as they were yeah Yep, an extra save or Burst cast and unbind isn't it Yeah, it's I don't think these got any worse. It's a question of the larger synergies that are lost right And it's like how much is this actually worth it now with with what it is? Um, yeah, you'll be able to do it as well as cast So you used to be able to take the war uh the the law spell and do that and then even in the In the short interim between a os three book He used to be a priest as well. Yeah, he lost three keyword. Yeah Yeah, so a lot of people were running in with curse And I think curse with you know curse opens up, uh, bore boys um, ara boys again, sorry, but Uh, yeah without that and with sacrificing the spell to be able to do the dances He's just like, yeah, you just wouldn't put him in any list. I don't think no Right. Yeah, and and I Want one thing that I really drove home into everyone in the bone splitters chat that you can't go you can't take Bone splitters to an event without at least four docks. It was like a mandatory I made everybody like I turned everybody in that like you have to take four war docks in every in every list Because there was four or spells And you used to be able to stack the save so you could do more dances, you know put rightable saves on um Yeah, they were they were fantastic and they used to be like a Best value war scrolls in the game like that like hands down So much utility in that war scroll um And yeah, they were undercosted when when they went when they became priests and when they were able to take They they Taking away their ability to cast and dance Time is just Yeah, it just cripples them. I think yeah, they're only 80 points and I'm not sure they're worth it That's a real statement Right, like that's boy. Is that a statement? All right, and then lastly Head racka the gob of cork our little um, what's his name the This is the guy from underworlds and his little mop. He's the only one I included in here Um, I didn't pull the iron jaws guys. I I skipped the iron jaws guys, but here's my summation of them They're both actually fine and good and can find places in your list is my honest answer I'm sorry. I didn't pull in the scrolls. I didn't have them But they're both of the iron jaws ones are fine So there you go um, I actually really really like the art boys If you already have three battle line instead of using five regular art boys, I would use the Uh, the underworlds unit every time of the four art boys They're way better Is my answer. I use them. I was very happy with them They have their like a five up ward on one of their dudes and they were just yeah, they're good so head racka is He is a double caster, um, which is you know, that's cool. Uh, where is this idiot at? There he is He is 220 for him and his three boys Um, he has a double caster Um, he has neg one to be hit all the time because of his little mask Um, he can pick one enemy unit with an 18 inch to this unit and visible to it until your next hero phase Add one to hit rolls for attacks Made by this unit that target that enemy unit in addition until your next hero phase add one to hit rolls for attacks Made by a friendly head racka's mob unit Okay, that could have been the best ability in the world if it was just add one to hit rolls for attacks to target that unit But it is not Uh, he has this little venomous fight. Um, where he can push people to mortal wounds And his spell is bone crush a Um casting value of six in a range of 24 inches pick one enemy unit within range and visible to the caster If that unit is within six inches of the caster it suffers t6 mortals if that unit is more than six inches It suffers d3 mortals. Uh, if it's more than 12 inches away, it suffers one mortal so Yep, he wants to have a little close-up spell and the important part about his mad mob is they they have a built-in body guard So they for a ward him effectively Seven wound five up save double caster for 220 Yep He's uh, it's too expensive No Yeah, and doesn't have a word Yeah, he doesn't have the actual wargog mask. He doesn't have the stary her to ask. Yeah, sure. Yeah Yep. Yeah, that's that seems like a lot of points. Yeah when doesn't have that Yeah Probably a bit too expensive for what in the end is, you know, 13 wounds It's it's because he's a double caster. That's what he's paying for but it's okay Yeah, like yep Um, so there we go. That's it. We did it gentlemen. We got there That's the end of the day All right, well for all of you out there who stayed with us for this marathon Oh my goodness. I can't believe tyler only you could could empower us to go longer than the storm cast You've you've done it again. You've done it again, sir Uh, if you're safe with us hit that like button, uh, we really appreciate it I know this was a long show. I like you for sticking around and watching. Thank you to everybody who's still here Hit that like button And uh, subscribe if you haven't already Uh, benjamin, you're an absolute titan a champion a legend for staying with us for the full time Even though it's 3 a.m. Where you are. So thank you, sir I really want to assist you too. Well, we deeply appreciate it So thank you very much everybody benjamin. We'll have you back again Probably when we're doing a normal show and not believe in keeping you up until All hours of the morning, but you're welcome back again anytime Best I can do is four hours benjamin Best I can do For all of you, thank you so much for watching. We really appreciate it as always We'll see you next wednesday