 I was born ready I don't think your mic son green light here we go September 24th welcome to the regular September meeting of the housing authority the city of Santa Rosa and the first order of businesses the call to order and we've done that so let's proceed to roll call chair Harris here vice chair Lemke here Commissioner Bulldock Commissioner Burke Commissioner Downey Commissioner Johnson Morgan here Commissioner Olson yeah let the record reflect that all board housing commissioners are present with the exception of commissioners Bulldock Burke and Downey okay thank you the next item on the agenda is the statements of abstentions are there any hearing none and we will proceed to the staff briefing briefing item number four Brown Act update thank you okay there we go speaking on this topic yes Sue Gallagher city attorney and I'm going to give just a broad overview of the Brown Act kind of walk through it I'll try to focus on some of the issues that are most relevant to the authority but it is going to be in the context of the broader broader provisions of the of the Brown Act and I always like to start a Brown Act presentation with a little bit of history because I think it helps put things in in in context really started back in 1951 when San Francisco Chronicle reporter spent six weeks looking at what was all going on in city government it was already the state law that business city business had to do and had to be done in public but what he discovered were a whole series of secret meetings going on so he then wrote a ten-part series entitled your secret government and that did get some response from the legislature and in particular Modesto assemblyman Ralph M. Brown introduced what now is known as the Brown Act to try to get some more teeth into the requirements for open government so since that so that was in signed into law in 1953 so it's been on the books for for quite some time and it has evolved in in some more particular ways but really the key provisions of the act and the primary intent of the act have remained consistent throughout it's really all about transparency and public trust and the beginning of the act it states that the people of this state do not yield their sovereignty to the agencies which serve them so that's the fundamental statement the public has a right to be informed and all of the business of the agency must be done in public the courts have looked at the Brown Act and considered the Brown Act in quite a few cases and consistently all of the acts provisions for openness and transparency are very liberally construed so if there's any questions we err in the side of openness and access all exceptions to that openness are very narrowly construed so the basic rule has several components it's all meetings of the legislative body of a local agency shall be open and public and all persons shall be permitted to attend any meeting of the legislative body except as otherwise provided in this chapter that is you know except as their except to the extent that there are specific express exceptions so I'm going to take those step-by-step although not in exactly that order we'll start with what is a legislative body that is subject to the Brown Act so obviously the governing body of the local agencies so our city council the board of supervisors so forth it is only local agencies does not apply to the state agencies and it also Brown Act also covers any other local body that's created by state or federal statute and it includes and I will quote here any commission committee board or other body of a local agency that's created by charter ordinance resolution or by formal action of the legislative body so we have had issues come up recently where the city council has formed in the climate climate action plan a committee a formal committee that is comprised of staff and we did conclude that it falls within this provision but for your purposes it's really going to be key to know that the authority itself is subject to the Brown Act and any subcommittees that you form with one exception and the exception is for ad hoc committees which are comprised of less than a quorum of the authority and that they are focused on a single subject and therefore a short duration if they're if the committee is going to cover multiple subjects or if it's going to go on for a year or more then it's most likely going to be seen as a standing committee in which case it is subject to the Brown Act and it has to have public noticing and agenda and open access no go ahead and ask questions as we progress in situations where members of the public have felt that created ad hoc committee is really skirting this definition of not being subject to the Brown Act in other words the singles subject and the short duration and I'll be open in that there's been some recently formed city council ad hoc committees which seem to be increasingly shut to the point yes we have had questions raised by the public on various ad hocs and it is not always an easy answer because there is not a bright line the single subject is a bright line although and maybe even that isn't that much of a bright line because it depends on how you define the subject and the short duration so generally we're looking at when we form an ad hoc is that there is an end in site it's not going to be an open-ended until we get it done kind of thing but it's something that we would expect to get completed within six months certainly less than a year but again the case law is not they do not draw a hard line in terms of how long an ad hoc can last I am aware of concerns over a couple of different ad hocs that the council has formed I know in the form the homeless ad hoc there were a lot of members of the public that would have preferred that that had been a standing committee instead similarly we've we have the council has formed a committee for the sunshine ordinance and we have decided to establish that as a standing committee so that it will be a brown act committee and open to the public so yes that that distinction between ad hoc and standing committees is sometimes subject to differing views and some controversy of a single subject yes it is it is a single subject and I think it was we work in our office was consulted on the formation of it as an ad hoc and we felt that there was there were substantial grounds for creating it as an ad hoc committee certainly the council could have decided to establish a standing committee that would have been a an ongoing long-term committee to address homeless issues so it could have been done either way but we did conclude there was sufficient grounds for creating it as an ad hoc thank you so now let's talk about what is a meeting and this first part is going to talk about what all can constitute a meeting that would be subject to the brown act and then we'll talk about what does the brown act allow in terms of those meetings so a meeting it has three components it's a congregation and I use that term very loosely of a majority of the members of the legislative body to hear discuss deliberate or take action on any item that's within the subject matter of the legislative body and I'll emphasize it's to hear discuss deliberate or take action so even if you are just joining together to hear something you're not going to take any action that still will be considered to be a meeting so that's different than the slide number 10 that's in the presentation which defines what is a meeting and the last bullet point is discussion whoops I'm going discussion reaction it is not it's not as I'm getting two slides that follow each other in the boat called what is the meeting yes there are two slides but I'm having problems getting back to where okay now I'm going the right direction okay I'm sorry okay there's the what is a meeting this is the majority to hear discuss deliberate or take action and the next slide is it can be formal or informal it can be planned or unplanned it can be in person or it can be through intermediaries or through technology it can be all at one time or it can be a sequence and again it can be discussion or an action and that's the distinction the it says discussion or action versus the other one which says here right that the here deliberate that is language from the statute itself this little summary is just and that's the code say right there California government code 54 952 yes so it includes your regularly scheduled meetings it would include any site visits any retreats any meals that you have together casual gatherings phone calls and again it can be all at once or in sequence and I'll give some examples so it includes informal meetings this is if four or more authority members got together beforehand before a meeting to talk about an item that's within your jurisdiction doesn't have to be on the agenda it just has to be within your subject matter jurisdiction or you run into each other all at the coffee shop and start talking about your work and about the work of the authority that would be a meeting it includes what's commonly known as a hub meeting where one councilman one commissioner might call another might call one and then next call a second next call a third now there's been a conversation amongst a majority of the commissioners now again number two number three number four haven't talked but number one has talked with all has talked with the majority so you've gotten a discussion going about a matter that's within the authorities jurisdiction and that has been done informally and outside the view of the public and that's where the concern is so there's a distinction between hub meeting and serial meeting yeah and then a serial meeting is I kind of use the example of a the game of telephone so that a calls be be calls see see calls D and it might be by phone call some of those might be by phone call some might be by email some might be oh I ran into someone at the store and said oh by the way I talked to talked to David and Helga and this is what they're thinking on this issue and you have that discussion going on outside of the public view and without any notice it also includes as I mentioned electronic communications and this I do want to highlight emails can so easily and inadvertently sometimes become a channel for communication among a majority of commissioners so our recommendation is to avoid sending any substantive emails any emails in which you discuss substance within the issues within the authorities jurisdiction don't send those emails to a majority of the council our recommendation is to not to send those kinds of emails at all because it becomes very easy even if you only send it to two other members it's so easily for one of those other members to forward it to someone else to raise it in a discussion again the focus is to keep those communications in those discussions within a within an authorized meeting so you trigger another question with you know council versus the housing authority I mean are there restrictions on communication between members of the housing authority and the full seven city council members no there are you can't that gets a little complicated in that you each of you individually can communicate an action let me see if I go to the next one what is not a meeting because this will help to address that individual context between commissioners and staff or between commissioners and our office lawyers or between individual commissioners and others so that could be members of the public it could be members of the city council that's fine that is not a meeting so long as you don't use those conversations to be conduit for discussions with with other authority members or to reach some kind of consensus you can't you could talk to me or to David or to staff or to a council member this is what I'm thinking but what you can't do is ask them what are others on the authority thinking would you let other commissioners know what I'm thinking that it cannot be a conduit for developing and for having any of those broader conversations one-on-one so similarly if you wanted to talk to all seven council members you could do that as an individual to an individual the council members could not discuss amongst themselves what you told them they can't you can't use them to try to each of those conversations to try to develop a consensus at the council level that would be a brown act violation at the council level nor could you use it as an as a vehicle for developing a consensus or communicating amongst the other authority members so in that context you're using you to mean somebody who has holds a position in some arm of the government right if you are a commission for purposes here it's if you're a member of the authority right it's not the general public who can't try no no right right no although even the member of the public and I had this discussion with with a member of the public the other day who was under the impression that he could only speak with three council members they said no you're free to speak to all seven of them but you can't talk to any of the council members about what another council member is thinking or about a what another council member told you because you can't use it as a vehicle to try to get some decision-making or some discussion going on behind the scenes you need a slide for that yes so that that is a that is a big exception to to recognize and to be careful of what the parameters of that are other exceptions attendance at a social or ceremonial event where no business is discussed so everyone can go to the sesquicentennial celebration everyone could go to an awards dinner those kinds of events to a wedding to a birthday party as long as you don't talk about any of the authority's business while you're there help us get a question sure if an individual member of the public talks to all seven city council members you said that that person can't use those can't convey what one person is said to another even if it's less than a majority is that just flat right those should not be used at all to to talk about what another council member is thinking or has said similarly to the authority members if a member of the public it comes and talks to you you should not reveal they should not reveal you should not ask you should not reveal what any other council members or any other authority members have said in a situation like that where the public probably doesn't know that that's their duty but they come up to me or any of us and start to tell me what another board member has said what am I supposed to do with that you're you're you're our recommendation is that you tell the person you I'm happy to talk with you about this subject but we can't talk about what any other authority commissioner has said to you or believes or what their position is we can only talk one-on-one and I very much recognize that most members of the public are not aware of that limitation so that responsibility really rests with the commissioners here with the council members at the city council level so three other exceptions to the meeting requirements and the all three of these have a condition and that is if you attend any of these kinds of meetings that you do not talk amongst yourselves about matters within the authority subject matter so commissioners are free to attend conferences that are open to the public free to attend community meetings that are open to the public we're also free to attend other open to noticed meetings of other bodies so the entire authority could go to a council meeting the entire authority could go to a planning commission meeting of the city tire authority could go to the board of supervisors meeting but at those meetings you could not talk amongst yourselves about anything within the authorities jurisdiction so you can go and you can hear you can participate but not talk amongst yourself there are some nuances in that there is some argument that if you speak at a meeting you're effectively speaking to your other authority members if they're all present but it's pretty nuanced and it kind of can go both ways so it's really more you shouldn't meet amongst yourselves and discuss things amongst yourselves in those settings social media is another area of frequent commune communications or possibilities of frequent communications in general all of this is evolving the law and this is evolving general don't engage in discussions or comment on fellow members fellow commissioners blogs or Facebook pages and again we've already talked about emailing that would also apply to texts be very careful and in how you communicate a recommendation generally is if you have something of substance or of procedure that you want to have the the rest of the authority be aware of communicate to to the director or to staff or to me or to other of the city attorneys and and and and then let us get that message out if it's scheduling issues or or if there's issues that you want to bring to the authority to have the authority consider bring that to staff and let them bring it forward yeah and I would just add to what Sue's comments I would defer you provide that to the director rather than staff that has been clear to you so we've talked about what can constitute a meeting so let's talk now about in what context is it appropriate for you to be having discussions of items that are within your subject matter jurisdiction three types of meetings in open session they're your regular meetings like this one that is a regular scheduled time special meetings which are my eyes will go through I'll go through my slides the regular meeting meeting that occurs at a regular scheduled date time and place and the agendas posted at least 72 hours prior to the meeting special meeting is a meeting that's called to discuss one or more identified discrete items that agenda must be posted at least 24 hours prior to the meeting and at a special meeting you can only discuss what was listed on the agenda so at a special meeting you don't even have the off agenda public comment it's only items that are on the agenda and finally you can have emergency meetings when action is needed due to some sort of disaster workstock stoppage or other activity which places the public health or safety at risk in that case notice is provided one hour in advance if possible and both for special meetings and emergency meetings there are very special noticing requirements and agenda requirements but staff will take care of those issues press needs to be notified council members need to be I'm not council members authority members need to get special types of notice so forth those are the three general types of meetings for all of them and I'll get to closed session after but those three open meetings the general notice and agenda requirements agenda has to contain a brief description of each of the items to be discussed including the items that are going to be discussed in closed session the agenda has to be posted a hard copy and it has to be available online and it has to be mailed to those who have asked for mailing notice and it has to be made available in appropriate formats for persons with disabilities and in general once the agenda is posted you cannot discuss any I take any actions or discuss any items that are not on the agenda there are a couple of exceptions which I'll get to but first with the agenda there's a distribution of the materials we have a nice setup in that everything gets posted online including the staff reports and the attachments and the PowerPoints there's also hard copies available any materials that come in after the agenda has been posted of staff has additional staff report or additional materials have come in those materials have to be made available to the public at the same time that they're provided to you again staff will take care of that make sure that happens and then any materials that come into you at the meeting itself those also have to be made available to the public so if you as an authority member are planning to bring any additional items if you provide those to staff in advance we'll make copies and have them available to the public again this is all in the interest of having the public have the same information that you have other than any types of confidential information that you might receive it seems as though we frequently get material at the time of our meeting this is an ex well this no this was on our agenda but sometimes there is something distributed at our meeting and not ahead of time so is that in violation of no there are times you're there there's no problem with providing additional information at the meeting itself either written materials or obviously oral presentations but written materials can come in from staff or from members of the public or from you know an authority member if they're coming from staff or we would ask from you that they'll we will have copies available at the top four members of the public and we'll have that available at the same time that we're delivering it to you if a member of the public brings in materials for you we will make copies of those materials we won't necessarily have them available at the meeting itself but we'll have it available shortly thereafter so that again the public can have access to the materials that you have access to other than confidential items well it's actually possible to update the grant because legislator yes during the meeting yes yeah yeah so actions that are not on the agenda what can you consider if you decide if a majority of the authority decides that there's an emergency you can consider that item off agenda if two thirds of the members decide that there's need for immediate action that the action need for action came up after the posting of the agenda so 72 hours and you know that it's a legitimate that it it just arose I've had instances not here but in past employment where folks say well gee we forgot to put this on the agenda so and now we're we're in a bind and we need to have action immediately that's not an excuse under under this provision but if something legitimately comes up rises after posting of the agenda if two-thirds of the members vote you can consider that exception there is that this need does not arise because staff forgot right so staff forgot it's that's too late but it could arise if there was discovery of an application that needed housing authority approval that somehow yes came in very late yes yeah yeah and I've seen it arise where there's been maybe a claim that's filed that needs to have a response within a very short period of time right this is right it's it's due to inadvertent you know if there's there's reasons outside of our control that something came up within those those days you can also consider actions that aren't on the agenda when the item well it will actually appear still appear on the agenda so I'm not sure why this third but bullet is still here but if you had an item on agenda previously and you're continuing it from that earlier meeting you can you can consider that with a question that you're making obvious is it to be continued it has to have been in the prior meeting right and agendized in the prior meeting right well it was agendized then and then that's if it just dangled that can't be a passive continuance you can continue it but my recommendation is it's going to be on the new agenda as well if it came up I forgot well unless it somehow came up within that 72 hours since the posting I mean I I'm a little bit of a loss of how that all logistically would play out so when I revise this I think I'll take out that bullet because it's a little odd one on public comment at all meetings the public has to be given an opportunity to speak on every item that's on the agenda each item separately unless you've already had the item before the authority and there's already been public comment on that it you don't need to reopen that ability for public comment the second time around so I've seen that I have not seen that as often here at the city I had seen seen that more often when I was frankly with the with the county they often took straw votes and then came back later to adopt a resolution and they did not have to reopen the public comment when they were adopting the resolution other than comments on that the resolution might not reflect that the correct action of the of the of the body but in general all all public is going to be allowed to speak on each item that's on the agenda in addition in a so on our agendas we usually have a section that says public comment yes rather than after every item right there is that is the second step so there is public has a right to comment on each item that's on the agenda and then in addition public has a right to speak on any item on any item that's within your subject matter jurisdiction whether it's on the agenda or not they have that opportunity at each of your regular meetings and so that's what that agenda item is the public comment is for items that are not on the agenda so if we have committee reports and we give those reports and then public wants to make a comment on that we we give them the time we give them that time yes I have a comment on that you know it seems to me most people who attend city council or housing authority meetings unless they're regulars wouldn't necessarily know the rules about comment it seems as though it would be helpful to the public if under each agenda item we said public comment actually put in there because I think I remember in the past sitting there and and not being sure whether I could come a particular item or I had to wait for the general public comment right and I I know that does sometimes create some controversy and I thought we have some language on our agenda at least at the council level that indicates that comments can be made yes actually it does say that it's a little bit buried under but it does say the public may comment on agenda items when when each item is called that's in the part about public comment yeah okay the general public comment on items that are not on the agenda that does not apply at special meetings nor does it apply at emergency meetings and in fact there not only is it not required it would not be permitted on either of those to have public comment not on the agenda so I know you often I've been here when you've gotten had comments public comments off agenda on items that are not in the agenda and so what response can you have to those I know sometimes members of the public raise some interesting issues in those public comments on items not in the agenda you can very briefly respond to the speaker but very briefly no discussions amongst yourselves no engagement with the member of the public you can ask staff for clarification and I have seen that happen certainly at the council when someone raises a question and council members might then call up staff and ask for an update on a particular city action the members of the legislative body might also refer the speaker to staff say you know we can't respond to you now but would recommend that you talk to director quine afterwards and he'll be able to help you or you could refer the the member of the public to reference materials that are available perhaps online or at one of the offices you can also ask staff to bring to report back at a later at the next meeting or a later meeting about the subject matter or you could ask staff to place the matter on to a future agenda for full discussion by the housing authority so can any individual housing authority any commissioner request that of staff you can request that as staff yes and to clarify it would be it would come under item 7 on your agenda where a member would make a motion you'd have to receive a second for it to be placed on a future agenda for discussion and action and is is that council and H and housing authority policy that is written somewhere or is that a staff preference that we do that as far as the council goes it is a an adopted policy of the council that it's that two-step process where a council member makes a motion is seconded it comes back at a second time for a vote on whether to put it on the agenda for a meeting sometime after that and I'm not familiar enough with the and that council policies referenced in the bylaws for the housing authority that we follow the council but it seemed to me it would be helpful to have a more descriptive line than if that is the point at which items can be proposed and adopted for a future agenda because it chairman and commissioner reports does not leave you with that immediate conclusion sure that's a I will revise that it's a very I mean heaven forbid if it's anything urgent because that you're talking about at least two months down the road right at this meeting the first and a second then it comes back for a vote at the next one and then it's on the following month is that right yes to the housing authorities recognizing that if they follow this procedure you know the council may hear an item sooner because they meet weekly where the housing authority only meets once a month and so that's something we'll have to talk through is see if we can invent something that can move quicker that would be great you do also have the right to regulate public comment so it's common that we have the three-minute limit that can be adjusted if there are no it's frequently at council if there are a lot of members of the public that want to speak sometimes the mayor will reduce the time of speaking to two minutes or sometimes even one minute you this says board but that's a that's a holdover the legislative body the chair may stop a speaker if the speaker is going over time if they're becoming overly repetitious if they're wandering into subject matters that are not not before you and if the speaker becomes disruptive the speaker can be removed my recommendation is and consistent both here and with council is use this very rarely and cautiously it's much better to allow the public to speak for their three minutes and if they ramble off topic or are repetitious so be it it's better to let the public have their same and and move from forward from there we're also very sensitive to not removing someone unless they are truly disrupting the meeting and we have had that happen at the council level and it's when you're when you are unable really to continue to hold the meeting I've been at the council where members members of the public in the audience have been so loud and chanting that you could not you literally could not hear what council members were saying at that point we adjourn we recessed the meeting and stepped out and asked the the those that were disruptive to to leave again only to be used in rare circumstances but it is available to you if need be and then I want to talk so those are that's kind of the parameters for open sessions obviously there are lots of details that we can go into it some other time or as they arise I'm always happy to answer questions feel free always to give me a call there's not a code section no in that second point there on slide 28 permitted only were specifically authorized by statute so is it sprinkled throughout or I'm sorry where this is 28 the closed sections general principles oh the second bullet permitted only were specifically authorized yes I did not have a chance to go through and make sure that there was a site on each page but I can certainly provide that sure the make a note of that closed sessions as I said earlier to the art narrow exceptions the general rule is everything happens in open with access to the public public participation public can hear what we're saying what's being said so closed sessions are just narrow exceptions again is going to be read by the courts to be narrow they're permitted only were specifically authorized by the statute there's a list in the Brown Act itself of when you can have a closed session item and that's quite the picture there my assistant helped find pictures but the standard is not whether the subject is sensitive or embarrassing or controversial so it has to fall within one of these specific exceptions I would just go ahead no go ahead I mean I would just say I'm struck by how careful the Brown Act is about transparency and openness which is why I really have a problem with the ad hoc committees that seems to be the other extreme I'll just say that and I and I do recognize that you are not the only one that finds that and feels that so close session before you go into a closed session you have to identify the grounds and you have to agendize it and the the statute actually includes very specific agenda notice noticing rules for for closed session depending on the type what has to be listed and again staff will take care of that but just to be aware of that discussion has to stay focused only on the agendized topic I've been again not so much here but in in prior positions where I've had legislative bodies that have very much wanted to wander into sort of related items but again it's very strict has to be limited just to the item that was agendized and allowable under statute it has to be on the agenda before we go into closed session when we come out of close session if there was any action taken so if there's a settlement of a lawsuit or authorization to acquire property that has to be announced and it has to be also disclosed who voted how they voted again if final action is taken can there just be an announcement that I don't know conclusion was reached to particular lawsuit or do the details actually have to be announced it will have to have the the detail I don't have to have the minute details but certainly if we reached a settlement of a litigation we would report out the amount of the settlement and the general terms of the settlement often what will happen is will they'll that is at the council level they will give general direction you know tentatively approving a settlement we will sometimes then report that out not that might because we don't have the settlement in hand but as soon as we have the settlement in hand it'll be reported out and we'll tie it back to that closed session so who can participate in a closed session members of the legislative body any staff that is required and the attorney can be there otherwise they can't have any members of the public you can't have outside folks involved and these are the primary exceptions to the to the Brown Act to open meetings there are others personnel matters that's not going to be falling in your jurisdiction pending litigation I know we have had that here with the authority in the past labor negotiations again probably not within your your jurisdiction real estate negotiations that could could could happen and that's just to discuss price in terms so again less likely to happen in front of the authority more likely to happen at the council level and then there's a series of other exceptions that are not relevant to the work that you do when we come out of closed session it's very important that the confidentiality of the closed session be maintained you cannot disclose any confidential information that was acquired in the closed session you can't disclose what was discussed in closed session or comments made by any one commissioner or another unless the legislative body itself as a whole authorizes the disclosure there are a couple of exceptions that's if member feels that they need that there was a violation of the Brown Act in the closed session and that can be drawn to the attention of the district attorney or a grand jury also if there are other illegal acts that you become aware of you can report those so you don't mention the Attorney General's office in that context it is to be dealt with at the local jurisdiction of the district attorney that's yes the the other confidentiality the one of the tricky parts is that from the staff perspective we do not discuss what took place in closed session even amongst other staff members except to the extent that those staff members have to be informed in order to move forward with the direction that you give or that that the council gives so now brown act violations if the members of the authority have met informally outside of an open session if we've met in close session and someone believes that there have been items that have been discussed outside of the scope of the allowable scope of the closed session there's a procedure either any member of the public and the district and or the district attorney can file suit if it is a member of the public they must first submit if we're concerns in action that is in the past they must first submit to us to the city a cease and desist letter there's a timeframe by which they have to do that then the legislative body can consider that cease and desist letter and if the body legislative body agrees to issue and does issue what's called an unconditional commitment to not repeat that violation and to you know take all actions going forward and compliance with the Brown Act there cannot be a lawsuit if the if you fail to do that unconditional commitment then the then the lawsuit can move forward and if the lawsuit moves forward any action that was taken in violation of the Brown Act can be voided and a plaintiff came the court can order an injunction to stop any future violations and the plaintiff is entitled entitled to their attorneys fees and costs so it can be it can also be expensive to be sued under the Brown Act and finally there is also there are also criminal penalties for against any member who knows or should have known that the action is in violation of the Brown Act so if you are again trying to reach consensus outside of an open public meeting if you participate in a discussion at the at the authority meeting that is not agendized those can all subject to you if you know or have reason to know that those are violations those can subject you to criminal penalties at the level of a misdemeanor and that's the that's the summary and happy to address any additional questions I have just one question does the state the assembly in the state Senate have the same kind of rule I see it to the local no they don't the state legislature in fact we were discussing that in our office not long ago with some folks that had been up in Sacramento on some pending legislation they said it's amazing they'll say okay well we're gonna take a break and we're gonna go and they'll do it right there in the in the chamber all huddled together and try to reach a consensus and then come out and announce it so yes the state legislature is not subject to the Brown Act that's amazing Congress isn't subject to a lot of things either thank you there was a very good presentation thank you thanks any anyone else with okay I do have some comments I mean I am certainly committed to the idea of openness and access and I still remain puzzled by the statement that to hear is is a already a meeting to me that would say the time at which this meeting packet is posted the meeting has begun because it has been heard and I you know that just kind of begs okay so that would suggest then that we would have a meeting in nothing would be posted until everyone was in or there the meeting was called the order because you would be in violation the Brown Act to have information floating out there without having the meeting in process I see where where you how you get there but the law is clear that you can provide materials in advance and yes you are you are receiving that information and you're receiving that information individually not as a yes you are all are receiving it but you are not in a communication about that until you come into your meeting here and maybe the hearing should be thought of as when what you're hearing when you're here together so the example that I would give for for hearing is if if four members of the authority say and invited director Gwine to come on over to the coffee shop and talk about an item that's within your jurisdiction you would be hearing that you would be at a meeting you'd be all you'd have a majority of the authority present so the the law is quite clear that we can provide you written materials in advance right so I mean that's things that they want to be communicated within the entity if there is something that you would like to have included in the packet you should give it to to staff to the director to staff and so this takes now to my specific email that I wrote in August and I knew what I was doing that there were questions that I had after receiving the packet and to bring those up only after the meeting it would cause a much longer meeting so I had written an email to our executive director in which I stated those and then I took and wrote a cover on top of that memo to him that I guess I will read it says in preparation for our meeting Monday I've developed questions related to the voucher waiting list update in the monthly activity report below as the email sent to our executive director Dave Gwine to give him a heads up in the last 10 days I did meet with Dave to review the agenda and discuss related matters he is aware of questions I have on other agenda items the purpose of this email is to share with all of you my questions related to the waiting list in preparation for our upcoming meeting this is not to start a group discussion outside the meeting as noted above do not reply to all I chose those words in full knowledge of the Brown Act and looking for a way and I am still really we should be looking for a best practice way to allow things that would facilitate our future communication this is a and so what I had sent was completely a list of questions I was not stating opinions of whether this was good or that was better I agreed with that or I didn't agree with this it was purely how many how much what is the difference between you know the flow in cash in in batch vouchers versus standard vouchers these are all factual questions for factual elucidation not any of my opinion or my trying to influence the other members and I believe there should be a way and I interpreted something that you wrote to me that it would be acceptable to then as long as this was distributed to the public at the same time everybody else got it we would be fulfilling the intent and I think don't know why it wouldn't also be in conformity with the purpose of the law the the issue is that by any member of the authority communicating directly which is by email to the other members outside of a meeting you have begun the discussion even if you are asking factual questions the nature of the questions you're asking is the beginning of the discussion that is telling your fellow commissioners where your focus is where your concerns are you may not be wording it that way but by listing what questions you have the best practice and this is what we we use at the Council is that you would submit those questions to the director the director then may find the answers to those questions and deliver a an email to the full authority that says these questions were raised and here are the answers and that's how we address it at Council so that we'll frequently get we appreciate if you have questions and it's going to help us to be able to prepare and be ready to answer that maybe even give some answers in advance we're happy to do that and the way to do that though is through the staff so that you're not and and when we do it at the Council we do not identify who raised the question we say questions have been raised the answers but we but by identifying by identifying yourself and starting that discussion you've you've started the discussion well I believe there must be a some way that we can devise a best practice because we have this issue that we get the agenda on Wednesday or Thursday and we have a Monday meeting there's not enough time for the process you're describing to happen by a Monday meeting I have yet I don't believe it unless I missed an email I have not gotten a response to this set of questions you know that were posed in August and it is now September so to have expected that to happen I was not being that presumpted to think that that would work within that time frame so that the fact that you could share those questions with the public and by having a place okay not by email post it on the website you know we do have a web page that you go to and it shows you who the current members of the housing authority are etc to have a place like that or anything that is in anticipation of that upcoming meeting is allowed to be made public to the other members and to the public in general and that would be in compliance with the spirit at least of the Brown Act and that is the question of whether what we're trying to do is really provide for openness and access or whether we're being overly bound by legal interpretation I'm happy to look at if there are avenues to have a conversation amongst commissioners in advance of a public meeting I am not aware of any under the Brown Act but I'm happy to do that research but again the concern is that you have started the discussion outside of a public forum and that's what what the Brown Act is precludes but the other piece of the Brown Act not only is the legislature exempt from the Brown Act in effect staff is exempt from the Brown Act and so we will have scenarios where staff has developed a resolution and recommended it to this body and we have not been privy to the deliberations that develop that recommendation and we are put in a position sometimes you know it in the meeting itself to realize okay well how did this get this recommendation get form formulated and you know that many times have seemed to me to be the huge inconsistency in the Brown Act that things get worked very fine detail outside the not only the view of the public but even the legislative body that is going to be asked to pass or apply on it and and certainly the the public meetings are the opportunity for you to drill down into those questions question staff quiz them about how they got to to those conclusions and then to voice your own concerns you're free to also you know continue items that you're right the work of staff is not subject to the Brown Act it is the Brown Act is directed to the decision makers the legislative bodies of the local agencies right well and I would to be specific I mean one you said looking for best practices I think we need to continue that steps see what other I mean how many cities and counties are in California and other boards and agencies I mean they were we're not doing one who's raised these questions and in the spirit of this I think we should establish some rules about our agenda process and and how much in advance you know realistically to me I think the Friday before a week before the meeting is what would give us enough time to formulate questions direct them to the staff to the executive director to his staff you know you can't expect the 12-hour turnaround you know from Friday to a meeting that's on Monday and we need to take that into the way we as a housing authority set the rules for our meeting preparation I would I don't know that the housing authorities any different from the city council but I know they're members of the public who've been arguing with the city manager and the city council around the amount of time for agenda you know notification and it's I doubt very much but maybe I'm wrong it's just something we could set separately from the practice by the city council you cited a 72 hour in your presentation and I don't exactly the 72 hour 72 hours is the is the required advance agenda in the brown act that is in the brown act city council actually operates under a they have a nine-day agenda posting which is a preliminary agenda which does not have all the materials attached but does have the list of items that are going to be discussed that nine-day advanced agenda was part of a settlement discussion from quite a few years ago and that time frame is also being looked at in the considerations of the sunshine ordinance and the open government task force recommendations I'm not aware of any limit on the housing authority to set its own time frame my recommendation and I would have to do some more research to make sure that there's nothing that requires it but my recommendation would be that it be aligned with what the council does so that there's not a number of different deadlines for staff to deal with for different different bodies so 72 hours 72 hours is the state required and is pretty consistently from the jurisdictions that I'm familiar with that is what is what is generally used and complied with but you mentioned the nine-day the nine days for Santa Rosa City Council and I think that is something we should seriously look at I mean basically we could adopt that because the city council is already doing it right and keep in mind what that is is an advanced agenda it's just the agenda language and does not include the materials are not attached until the Thursday usually it's published the Thursday or Friday before the Tuesday meeting so that is skirting in right under 72 hours right and we aren't bound to to pinch the 72 hours close so if we've said that it would be in the chairman and commissioners reports or somewhere in that section or part of the agenda that we would have the opportunity to request something beyond the agenda the agenda is and bring it to a third meeting which at this point would be well with a second I mean as I understand it let's say we are used say something I seconded it then it comes back to the next meeting and we actually have a vote and then I mean it does we do need to look at that and then we put it on the third one we have a second and a third then it goes on the next month right okay so I guess that is not in this piece of the agenda but we should be thinking seriously is I am expressing my opinion here that in the interest of openness and access that one we move our agendas along and make them more accessible and earlier and I would still accept your offer to do some more research to for best practices of how we can communicate because quite frankly you know people said to me all the problem with David Harris is the chairman is the meetings are going to be too long well if you want to do something about that we need to be able to address questions in a more expeditious way than having to wait till we are quote in a meeting and you know that is not against the public's interest to have us be able to deal with questions in an open way I mean it's not that there's anything I will look at it but you know my understanding right now is it would it would not be consistent with the Brown act to do that but I'm going to look and I'll see what other jurisdictions might be doing and I'll see I do some research as to whether there might be some other options right I mean the Attorney General's office would be the only other place that I could think might have some perspective on other jurisdictions right themselves a really important piece to bring back up is as it was mentioned earlier we follow the City Council policies but the City Council means you know every week so it's very hard for us when we have questions that can't be answered for 30 days out 60 days out because I know often when we do bring up questions here in the meeting we're told I don't have that information I'll have to get back to you and then we don't meet again for another month and you know it kind of just all gets lost in the shuffle right and I will say these questions that I raised are still questions that I do not have an answer to and so I want that to be clear that you know I think we need to be getting new perspectives on how the Housing Authority responds to the communities needs and understanding what our latitude is in how we could use our resources in other ways it needs to be thoroughly looked at and we'll do that and in the meantime and I'll try to get back some answers to you as quickly as I can and put that on the agenda but in the meantime I would ask that that your your questions be directed to director Gwine and and not to your fellow commissioners so and we will try to get answers to them as quickly as we can so I'm assuming this is a special appearance by you for this particular subject or are we have you assigned an attorney for the longer term to the Housing Authority or do we know unfortunately we haven't we have not yet gotten we have another attorney that will be we're going to be hire recruiting for another attorney and once that person is in place we will then have a dedicated person but for the meantime I'm afraid we will be rotating probably primarily between Molly McLean and me in terms of who is here for your meetings on Mondays I came here in part because I've done these Molly has as well but it had to do with both of our schedules and that I had materials prepared so that's why I'm here today but again it'll be Molly and I depending on our schedules and what's going on with both of us we are trying to keep very much in coordination with each other Angela Casa Grande who has sat with you before has a new assignment and is not able to take on this work at this time as we move forward she may she is she very much enjoyed being here and is very interested in this and in the matters that you address and so I can't tell you right now who once we get fully staffed who it will be and I do apologize for that it's been a little bit of a struggle for us staffing wise but our commitment is here and again Molly and I'll work closely together to make sure we're both aligned and I did hear you make the statement that you would answer questions for commissioners so I yes and I have not thought to bother you in your office but I mean no feel free I am I'm available and and as is Molly as well so okay so let me see this is agenda item 4.1 I have a comment card from Mr. DeWitt hello my name is Dwayne DeWitt I'm from Roseland I thank you for this nice discussion today and I wanted to clarify a couple of things for you before Mr. Olson leaves I'll let him know that 72 hours is the minimum requirement you can have more time all right it's not like you just have to be the tightest minimal legal requirements and Mr. DeWitt may we just pause for a moment until we have a quorum back in the room I apologize you will you will get your time is your time full-time yes a false start right I can thank you all right okay so Mr. Olson is back the mic appears to be on but the clock's not back to three there we go you folks are such time tyrants I have to be very careful about my seconds my name is Dwayne DeWitt and I'm from Roseland I wanted to thank you all for this discussion that you've had today it's very illuminating but I wanted to also make sure that you commissioners knew that 72 hours from the state is a minimal legal requirement and you can actually have more time as is sown by the City Council process of the nine days which came about through the lawsuits back decades ago with the Sierra Club at the turn of the century I was elected to a project area committee for the Southwest Santa Rosa redevelopment project that was alive at that time and I went through the Brown Act training and what I quickly realized was that the person handling our little committee named Jocelyn Lundgren was not really interested in having as much and as vibrant community engagement as we could I carefully read all of the rules and I happened to be at the University of California at Berkeley at the time and I would go over to the law school both Hall and talk to people there who were specialists in the Brown Act and also redevelopment law and basically what I came up with is that essentially staff controls the situation staff will keep a lot of things under wraps and they're not really as interested in the community finding out things community engagement is not necessarily something that enhances their pay schedule I found that trying to do good community engagement for the redevelopment out in Roseland was almost impossible because city staff kept a tight leash and didn't want us to have the information until the very last minute and we'd come to these meetings and then they would basically not give us a lot of information so I would advocate that you folks become activists if you will not just use the standard question well what does staff say but actually educate yourself on each of the matters that comes before you dig into it yourself and find out what you think is happening so you'll be able to ask pertinent questions and look at it as if it's a learning experience for us all as you try to utilize taxpayers money to do things that are helpful to the community for the health safety and welfare of us all with that in mind I'd like to also ask you to formalize a request to the City Council that the Housing Authority match up its meeting information dispersion if you will as the city does follow that same schedule that way you can say precedence already there and it should be easier to do with a once a month meeting than a once a week meeting so I think it could be an acceptable opportunity thank you very much for your time okay so that any further comments from the public on agenda item 4.1 seeing none that takes us to the regular public comment under item number five I have only one card again mr. DeWitt thank you my name is Dwayne DeWitt I'm from Roseland today I would like to talk with you about measure n I see that later in the meeting you are going to be talking about it but this is something different this is about utilizing the term veterans I myself am a veteran and I find it problematic when I see political discussions that essentially utilize the term veteran to try to put forward something for funding that actually may not help veterans and veterans may not be involved in how it is spent it's one of these things where if you go over by the Kaiser Hospital on Bicentennial Way you'll see a nice big new sign that says veterans village soon it's on a piece of land that they're scraping clear now that they've been talking about helping some veterans with federal funding and the county working to help for years and the idea is that it's because of the housing crisis the emergency crisis for homeless veterans and yet it takes years to get things done rather than just housing a homeless veteran tonight keeping them in out of the rain when the storm comes it's become more of a marketing approach to try to get funding for people to do projects now that the federal government has allowed through the housing urban development veterans affairs support of housing vouchers they're doing what they call project based voucher situations and it becomes a financing tool it's something that's been approved but it certainly doesn't help a veteran tonight I know some veterans that are out there right now and they don't have a spot and they'd like a spot it's taken years to get the veterans project at Benton street to go forward and it's costing hundreds of thousands of dollars per door and I'm thinking there's a way that you folks as a proactive housing authority could come up with a better approach you could perhaps say you know we want to house the homeless veterans that we have in our community and get it done as soon as possible tonight tomorrow night let them have a spot you know the military puts people on the spot the next day and tents are up that night and you've got a place to sleep in out of the rain right now so look at it from that perspective veterans are used to that and you guys could do that type of approach if you become a bit more active and look at it like yes let's help the veterans let's make sure it's not just political pandering to get funding to go for projects for people in their organizations thank you for your time about so much today okay mr. Wood thank you and is there anyone else wishing to comment on non-agenda items okay seeing none that takes us to approval of minutes which is the June 25th meeting in which I was absent and so I will abstain from voting on those and it says they were revised as of last week uh do we could you and might as as to what the changes were on September the 20th and if excuse me if the chair if you are abstaining and will there will not be a quorum for you right right so this is a continued item and no though that is June and when we continue till October and that is the kind of time delays that this body deals with which are a reflection of our attendance record okay okay so putting that aside but there is a question raised here it's noted here that they were updated last week and I can't tell if those are if those updates you know were on the basis of input from any of the commissioners or how that update occurred okay so chairman and commissioners reports so I guess I will start I'll put it in reverse order commissioners yes I just you may remember at our last meeting we had a presentation by Gregory Farron on a tool a digital tool he had developed to assist members of the public in finding in one place information about projects which were being proposed for development under development etc etc and I said I would follow up on that and Wayne said he would be interested in that too so we started that I started that process and I spoke to the director and want to thank him for following up with Dave Guheen from the planning department and he in turn is going to get back directly to Mr. Farron so that's where we are with that right now thank you any other items to report my commissioners well I will say that the executive director knows that I had told him this month I might actually put in a written report but I will report that I continue to follow and look in the media for examples of faster project completion in lower cost projects and I think we are you know after many years I think some of these things are now finally going to become viable in how we create the environment to be in the loop and potentially have projects presented us and from these newer approaches to rapid housing and responsiveness to to our charge we should keep an eye on that so that would take us to agenda item number eight committee reports the only committee currently that I'm aware of is the NOFA committee and I can turn to executive director to comment on what our schedule is for the NOFA process the committee reports are an opportunity for okay so we would leave that to the executive director's report too well it would be appropriate for you to comment on where we're at with the review or miss johnson who's also on that committee okay so I can report that I did the point commissioners Burke and johnson morgan and to that NOFA review committee and said that I would participate as I was able and we did meet last Thursday in the conference room in the city hall annex and started to look at the 11th and that's a daunting task with you know as you summarize 22 million in applications for a 4 million approximately that we have available and we did schedule a further discussion after this meeting because we did not even get the the overflight of all 11 on the table yet I would just add that I was I was delighted to see the variety of different proposals as to what the money would be used for and the different uses I thought that was great right there were some things that we have not seen before okay so that will take us now to the executive director yeah chairman Harris members of the commission so there's two items in the report the 1718 quarter four financial report and the monthly activities report be happy to answer any questions on those and then also I wanted to make an offer to the housing authority it was you know staff's observation from last meeting that for several members to arrive at a policy decision regarding the voucher program there was a desire for sort of operational knowledge and administrative detail and so to the extent members feel that they would like to have a refresher on those or the nuts and bolts of the section 8 program we could offer a workshop to the extent that then you gain a better understanding of the different levers staff pulls to balance our admin resources against the vouchers in the market rents when you're considering things like how many vouchers to project base or how to manage the waitlist I just would extend the offer we're willing to put up a workshop if you're interested well and as I communicate with you I it's particularly challenging because Washington isn't keeping up with the legislation I mean the housing opportunities through modernization act was passed in 2016 and the regulations are not really available yet I mean and it did make major changes to project base vouchers that the as I understand it but you know I'm reading third-party nonprofits saying that the new maximum number of vouchers just standard project base vouchers is 25 or 25 percent of the project which ever is larger so the new minimum for project vouchers is now 25 and you know it used to be there was no hard number like that and so you know there are various things that have changed in are still not working their way they're not in the regs yet so I would just be looking for the nodding of heads for those present if they'd be interested in us conducting a workshop so I see two definitely okay we'll make it available any member wants to come and of course we would agendize that meeting and publicly notice it very good good let's see if we can get some outside participation I have a couple of questions on the financial report yes go ahead I was curious on the page where you have revenue received through 6 30 18 and the difference between approved and actual and there were a couple of ones where the the percentage like the housing impact fee we received 343 percent um in that much more than what we had budgeted do you see where I am it's on page two yes two or three on that table and on that last received through 6 30 18 and the difference in the percentages in general or in a particular line 343 percent is so much greater than what was projected is that because there's such a boom in housing that we are getting so much more in the impact fee or was the impact fee raised or both it's a little bit of both so the start of the fiscal year we do an estimate on what we anticipate receipt of that resource to be and then it measures against the actual and typically we budget financially conservative so we don't overextend resources we may not receive oh okay the other one is loan repayment 822 percent that seems like a very conservative projection yeah there was a lot of repayments in fiscal year that we didn't anticipate people just had the money to get back sooner or project or what happened project didn't go forward the don't know if we have that detail good Megan we're ready Megan Basson chair manager of the Santa Rosa Housing Trust so the residual cash receipts that we receive in the form of loan repayment are difficult to anticipate so we generally estimate those fairly low and it's based on each project's performance during the prior year we did have some loans that were paid off in their entirety and we often don't anticipate those coming we had some larger loans that were 50 60 these are old rehab loans that were paid off in the prior year but in terms of the multifamily housing portfolio received we received several hundred thousand dollars from that source don't we require a certain time that people have to pay a loan back are these people who paid earlier than the requirement so for the multifamily housing portfolio we require residual cash receipts which are based on the prior years audit of the project so those are the repayments that are difficult to anticipate because it's based on the performance of that particular property so what their expenses were for the prior year and what other funding sources are being paid in advance of the housing authority so it depends on our lean position but in some projects which are old rehab loans those do have a time certain payoff date some projects do pay off a little bit earlier depending on their their terms if it's an ownership unit they may pay off if they're refinancing or if the unit sells so is the residual receipt what i used to call program income is it the difference between a particular complexes revenues and expenses and a certain amount has to be paid back to the city because that would be considered profit has it worked correct so for the larger complexes once they go through their revenue and expenditures for the year there'll be a certain percentage that we will receive in some instances if hcd has a loan in advance ahead of us they'll receive about 75 percent of the money and we'll get 25 so it really depends on the the funding sources that go into the project and the operation of that complex so any repairs they have had to make would be counted obviously as an expense and therefore a residual receipt might be less they should have a maintenance reserve which is funded annually through the the income that's lost my train of thought that's okay mostly multifamily projects have a deferred maintenance schedule so we can estimate when say a re-roof would occur or paint turnover units carpet etc and so that's the residual of that cash flow against those expenses came back the other time that we see our residual payments increase is if there was a deferred deferred developer fee once that is paid off we can anticipate receiving a little bit more money out of the project than in prior years but this represents i mean this item that's just labeled loan repayments that relates to all 100 and how many million dollars in the loan portfolio or is there some loan repayments in some other part or is this all of the housing trust 100 plus million i mean the housing trust has a portfolio of approximately 117 million without having the specifics i can't tell you if that line reflects the entirety of the loan portfolio well i think it would be behoove this commission to have a better picture of our portfolio and what it's projected repayments are you know anything we can do to accelerate repayment gives us more money to put out for new construction or new projects and you know 117 million well that was a big increase but if our projection was only 67 thousand on 100 million i mean that's pennies compared to our whole portfolio and is that i don't know from the corporate world i know that they work very hard to try and be to not surprise wall street by having receipts that they said they didn't know were coming and i i think it would be worth our time to be getting a better picture of what the near term repayments are so the theme i'm hearing from at least two members is we're surprised by the percentage a return over estimate and in some fiscal years when we have a project demand in mid-year we are in front of you as a policy board to see if we should budget that money in the current fiscal year rather than wait for the next fiscal year so that's one way for you to consider supply against demand so as we as staff see resources trending in that much higher than projection we do have that opportunity to come to you mid-fiscal year and have a budget consideration but that original budget number of 67 000 is like a half of one percent payment in in the course of a year and i understand that most of what's in that portfolio are 30-year loans with simple interest deferred to the end of the term except for payments made based on their residual receipts and you know we're in the era of big data that those numbers could be crunched to give us a better forecast i believe so the amount that's shown is the approved budget like david said we want to estimate lows that we're not over committing our potential revenue and also we have a handful of loans which generate a little over three thousand dollars a month in regular income so we don't want to estimate beyond what we know we're going to be receiving on a monthly basis right but i mean we if we budgeted closer it isn't the budgeting of expected income that determines how much we expend is how much we budget to spend that should be determining how much we spend and by underestimating the actual anticipated receipts you know that's not really standard practice and how you budget and i i think we we need to take a look at that now there's another item here the one with the biggest percent you tell me you didn't talk about the 1157 other housing choice vouchers okay that's not port ins uh that's some other class of vouchers it's uh next to the last item item on a table on the second page do we know what those vouchers are well i didn't i didn't know if you were making a comment or no no i i'm totally puzzled this to uh i mean other vouchers well generally uh so this is a funding source well our big funding source right above there the 25 million but what's the other uh that it isn't included it's they're included above so we have a another category here that's can't be many things if it's only well it's uh there's a footnote below did you have a question beyond what the footnote explains let's see what that footnote says federal grants is a funding from HUD to administer housing choice vouchers others it represents restitution reimbursement okay and um but you know what this uh we're not seeing the trends in restitution whether uh this was an anomaly year or whether you know there's a trend happening in in some of these income categories but i guess you know this really is the year in financial number right if you go back to the uh expenditures is you have numbers here that are the difference between approved budget and expended to the end of the year and then you got some committed but we still have remaining uh you know three and a half million dollars that's budgeted but my could you clarify the HUD if we don't spend if we were authorized 22.4 million for vouchers and we only spent 21 do we have that 997 thousand dollars to use this year or is that HUD says you didn't use it in your budgeted year that's off the table this is a line number two on the first page because every you know there is do we have the 997,979 dollars or is that is HUD saying oh that we would have given it to you but you didn't get enough voucher used to use the million we report our money to HUD on a fiscal basis but for our funding we follow a calendar year so are you saying that 997 is what we have as of 630 for the rest of the calendar year we spent this is what we have that HUD has given us and then they also give us money through them through the year but this is what we have at the end of June 30 right and you're saying that carries over because it's not the end of HUD's grant year correct okay and so the the actual budget year is some a piece of one federal year and a piece of another because but you're saying you're using calendar year the federal year ends on September 30 in the city's year ends on June 30 no for our funding from HUD HUD counts our money based on a calendar year so they give us money from January to December but we report to HUD on a fiscal year and for us it's from July to June that's why you know there'll be a discrepancy here but HUD gives us our budget usually monthly or once every two months so at the end of the calendar year then we do a reconciliation with HUD and that's there what they call the ACC number correct and and uh it would be useful to have a little more history of what's in a little more elaboration on when we do our well this is an example I think about how some individual members arrive at policy you really like to scaffold your questions awesome very basic detailed questions others not so much and so the offer for the section 8 workshop this could be a question some or more members have or maybe not everyone but that is the one item here that is based on calendar year the other items were based on our fiscal year so the because you know the loan activity that's within our control so we came forward with 1.8 million sub recipient funding while there was nothing there and projects again is yes that that is the homeless services right there right the three million that are shown there I think we should carry on with the meeting and let you take this up in detail staff I will do that I would like to note though that I think this would not have to dig into this so much if there was a more complete reporting system like I would assume that the HUD report would probably elucidate this but let me ask one further question and that is that uh this is as of June 30 that means that our audit process should be underway and what can you tell us about the audit process for this year it is underway I think it's scheduled to and that's for the whole city though I mean yeah is there a particular time that they they deal with our budget but but there will be a particular time and so it isn't that big a window it's a more defined okay thank you I have a um a difficult comment to make there continues to be a wide um divergence among members of this um board as to how much information we want on what subjects and I think each of us should certainly have the right for questions I think it's difficult to know when you know pretty honestly you're usually the one who wants more detail and how we arrive at some balance that you're comfortable with staff can accommodate and also works for other commissioners I don't have an answer to that but it feels like the elephant in the room and maybe we should be trying to find some solution well let me comment that I did attend the Narrow Conference in San Francisco in July and quite to my surprise I was registered for the commissioner's track not for the regular you know five ring circus that most conferences are and that was the commissioner's track on oversight and policy and I heard many stories from participants across the country of the fact that they when they do not pay attention to the finances of their housing authority they can get into trouble and that at least in HUD's eyes uh the commission has some fiduciary responsibility and it's hard to exercise fiduciary responsibility with the level of reporting that has been customary to this body and you know so that maybe comes back as a legal question is this commission indemnified by the city from the fiduciary responsibility that HUD might assume that we carry for the the financial health of the housing authority and that can be an open there's plenty of examples of when HUD has taken action against commissions that you know have kind of lost track of what's happening financially you know but I have also been on a lot of boards where reporting of finances has been not as good as one might hope and then I think as as a board member I the amount of time I spend on a budget or some other item is dependent on part on the track record of staff and you know Phil's been on here longer than anyone else this is not an organization or a city that is incompetent financially the audits show that to be true and I mean I've had years now of listening to reports and seeing HUD responses okay I have yet to see a HUD response other than the letter was regard to Montana so I don't know quite what that means but you know in most boards and commissions there is a committee that the finance committee that looks at this in more detail we do not have that level of structure in this organization so this is the venue that we have had to talk about finances and if we want to create more structure so that it is reviewed I'm amenable to that but there needs to be with along with the fiduciary responsibility some follow-up okay there's any more questions on the financial quarterly report so this takes us then to well the activity report there are two items on there do you want to comment only if there's any questions from the commission I think the the progress in the family self-sufficiency program is great I mean it's been around for a long time and it's nice when the participant gets a payout as it were was this going to be used for home purchase do you know yes okay good afternoon Rebecca Lane manager of the housing choice voucher program this participant is looking into that possibility she hasn't made a decision yet but we've referred her to two of the mortgage consultants that we work with on the family self-sufficiency programs program coordinating committee there's two local mortgage consultants who specialize with first-time home buyers and does that interface you know we've got potential projects that are for sale projects that we're giving partial funding to I mean if the person has a long enough time horizon obviously those things should come together sure you have someone's otherwise eligible for a project like that absolutely so could you put a little bit of meat though on this 28 percent over the last three months I mean what has happened with the level of participation in family self-sufficiency and has the funding been an issue or is it a more an issue related to identifying participants it's just been an issue of identifying participants and so we've just had a a great deal of more interest recently and we've been able to put staff resources above and beyond our our typical funding in order to do that okay so 28 percent is how many people well what is the total size of the family self-sufficiency program and are we at capacity now or is there still room for more people to participate there is still room for more people to participate yes what's the total amount so we started with a mandatory minimum of 75 participants and as we graduate families that number reduces so I believe the number currently is 68 is our mandatory minimum and we're still under that so we're still recruiting actively for additional families and okay so now we're talking minimum what's the mandatory maximum or is there none well we'd have to stay within the confines of our of the grant that we receive from HUD in order to administer the program so if we start to generate interest beyond 75 let's say then we would be requesting additional funding from HUD to administer the program so that we had more staff resource dedicated to it so how many years have we had this program and is it continuing at more or less a level funding or has it been fluctuating the funding has been pretty steady since about 2009 which is I believe the the when we had the current structure of the program and so there's 68 participants in room for seven or six more or something that's the no we have under 68 participants at this point right so that's why we're so yeah then what is the number of people that could be taken in if they were identified we have the capacity to serve 75 at any one time and we have how many now it's not the not to 68 that's our new minimum our current enrollment we don't know it's it's in the between 40 and 50 families right now so there's a lot of room there but I know you speak highly of that program and it sounds like it's one that maybe we should be thinking about how to increase that participation because it I mean if you help people come out of there with a down payment for a home purchase and we've got projects that are home ownership projects that need to qualify buyers you know we've got two sides of our house that are interested in this and to not optimize that you know that's not a good thing and there are very strategies that might be all stuff in here I would say we're not opt it's not a question of not optimizing it we're very much aware and you've seen Rebecca participating in the NOFA review the same committee will be reviewing the project-based vouchers so I just want to step in and you know maybe correct you chairman that it is being optimized right but I mean I'm just talking about the numbers and I know it's not going to happen by magic so and it does not hurt for us to talk about that we have things that maybe through people's relationships we could recruit some more people I mean it's we have to consider all the possibilities okay thank you for that elaboration I also had a couple of questions so how long would our funding sources had whoever is funding the self-sufficiency program you're saying that we're at 40 to 50 families and we should be at 68 what is our window like what is HUD going to look at us go you're below your standard it's an annual grant application for the salary and benefits of the family self-sufficiency coordinating staff so we are eligible for the maximum grant amount based on the cost of living in our area so the amount of salary that we would expect to put towards that position if we meet a minimum that is actually even below our mandatory minimum because what they set the grant on is based on essentially a caseload size of fss participants that might be standardized across the country although that's difficult to do so for the last several years we have been able to qualify for the maximum grant for one equivalent family self-sufficiency staff person that's about $68,000 and then also in conversations with Jules I know that there are thoughts about having a program inside the city to assist home buyers is that tied with the the measure in bond matter or is that a separate thought about getting a program going outside of the bond passing yeah I think what you might be referring to is the home ownership voucher program yes that the county has where they they help they continue to help home buyers with a voucher right they would if they were renting right so maroon county has a robust section 8 home ownership voucher program we are working actively with the county as well to be able to bring that program here it's a matter of finding loan agents who are willing to work with our participants so we have the two who are serving currently on the program coordinating committee for fss who would be interested in doing that it's a it's a complicated program to to take on and so we are working on it you know to the best of our ability and at this point while we're in the process of researching that seeing if we can develop that here we are working as as hard as we can to connect graduates of the fss program with other local resources that could help them become home buyers so taking that fss escrow account once they have that using that as a down payment by connecting them to to loan agents and to other first-time home buyer resources that might include additional down payment assistance so we try and sort of piece things together when the when the time comes for fss participants in particular however to actually get that program officially within within the county or within the city limits is it going to be tied to the bond measure no no that would be separate and that would be the bond measure program i know this is just a question that i'm sorry but that would be a completely separate option or resource to the community besides this program that would be specifically for voucher holders correct correct okay thank you so that means that in this presentation on the first page of expenditures that all of those programs are wrapped in the housing assistance payments i mean that the fss is in that 22 million dollar number as our standard vouchers our project vouchers are port in even port ins are in there and you know is that i'm not clear on the the budgeting and the granting for fss i mean would we have spent down that 997 if we had you know the 68 or 75 participants i mean i know you what you you you can only staff in certain increments so the staffing is one fte the staffing is a separate um from the housing assistance payments so that's administrative funding the fss grant and the fss escrow which is the the amount of money that a participant would receive at the end uh that builds up out of housing assistance payments dollars and then when it's uh awarded to a participant in that expenditure you know might spike for that particular month okay so um i believe we've uh had a lot of discussion on the monthly activity report so let's take the next step to uh the report item 10.1 on the statement of support for the city of senator rosa housing recovery bond mr chairman that item has been pulled from the agenda um it is not within the authority's jurisdiction to take a stance on local ballot measures under state law now i have to complain i mean we've been talking about this since august we were told at our i'm sorry we were told at our last meeting council thought we couldn't take a stand then we got a communication that she had conferred research whatever and we could take a stand so why this new information uh i have to apologize because i was that a miss kessigrande or miss which morning she and i talked briefly but i was not aware that she had done additional research to conclude that you could take a position the research that i've done frankly over the weekend um was that that it would not be permissible under state law i mean i'm not making this up right we did get it right absolutely received an email saying that i apologize i've been reversed and that we could have a position on on this if you want to take a brief recess i'll go try to touch base with her and see what she found um and if it's contrary to what i found well i don't know i'm gonna take me five minutes to walk up there and see if she's there okay okay brief recess okay yeah okay we're taking a five minute recess everybody can scatter to the corners okay okay looks like we have uh the personnel to proceed with the discussion about endorsements of bond the bond major yes thank you i was able to catch miss mclean and we're both here now um and i will say that yes this is an area of law that is not um crystal clear and does take quite a bit of digging to get down into it um but um i will let molly step in and yes thank you chair harris and members of the housing authority and first i i want to apologize for any confusion um in my initial direction to you with the last meeting i said that this was not allowed i did look again and find some guidance for the housing commissioners housing authority commissioners on issues related to the campaign and in that i saw that a legislative board may endorse an item however upon additional research we found that um that's the board of supervisors or the city council who are taking the original position and it's doesn't pertain to uh boards where the council makes appointments so the housing authority is actually um not in that category though and in some ways it's a legislative board it goes on to clarify that um where there are appointments made by the council um it actually draws that line and and makes that restriction so i apologize for any confusion should always trust my first instincts but sometimes the law is a little more complicated um than it looks on the surface and um so i'm happy to be here to try to clarify for you yeah i understand well i mean but it does raise the question to what degree uh we are our decision process is subject to the will of the city council i mean you know you have things that get appealed to the council does everything that we do subject to appeal to the city council but to clarify your decisions are not uh appealed to the city council and and this is an area and i will say that um i guess two things one is i apologize that that molly and i had not coordinated in advance of today's meeting so that i take responsibility for that um and i will say that the housing authority is a little bit of a um an oddity and in its structure and that in some respects it is its own legal entity and therefore could have its own legislative body on the other hand it is an appointed uh commission um from the from from the the city council and so by the research again um that was done that that we did since then um it does draw that line um i will say there is not a uh clear uh case law or statute that is precisely on point but what the general rule is is that um boards and commissions cannot take a position on a local measure and then there is an exception that is carved out for uh city councils and boards of supervisors as um the body that speaks for the city or the county and uh that that is allowed then to endorse a measure as i said in my email this morning um you still as individuals may certainly uh endorse the measure you may speak out on the measure you may use your title in in um in materials um you i should identify your that as um for identification purposes um that you're not speaking on behalf of the authority but you can you can use that title in materials um so yes it's a um a little bit of a difficult area and i apologize for the confusion well i it does leave us with the question of how uh you know whether we expect any flow of information about how this bond measure is being promoted you know nobody's nobody's calling us to say well could you meet us at such and such a place to walk door to door but some of that is happening and i have no idea how this is proceeding right as individuals you are most welcome to participate um in the campaign in support of the measure or indeed an oppose in opposition to the measure you have that right as citizens you certainly do not give that up um become by becoming a member of the authority so you have that and um but all of that has to be done all of the campaign work has to be done through avenues outside of the city government because the city can't use its resources to advocate for the position for this commission there are a few uh city resources being paid to those of us who sit on this side of the dais you know so it did you know that that is not uh it is consistent as it might be for you know uh accounting commissioners you know those and board of supervisors uh they would be using uh government resources if they use their time during work hours yes your your time is your own and you you may certainly use it um to participate in this campaign and any other as well okay so that takes us to adjournment i do think we put on the table some things about planning our future meetings and getting agendized some additional matters and uh we will want to continue to follow up on that to clarify that there was no there was no vote or consensus on what is being asked of staff to bring forward for your consideration well i wrote down a note here that said that we okay so we need to formally say something about formalize a request to the city council that we at minimum adopt their nine-day um advance release of the preliminary agenda that didn't get discussed it got discussed it was okay this is a chance to clarify because i clearly is an interest of the chair i don't know if it's an interest of the legislative body so that's what we mean when we would during commissioner reports we would ask for a motion and to see if there's a second and then okay well the body could have a discussion do that now because that was not me that's made that statement so i will second it from whoever made the statement about formalizing that with the city council i move to uh make a motion or i make a motion to request that we um i'm sorry i don't know the exact wording um have a nine-day lead time in advance of our agendas chairman harris new right so i was certainly would second that and it leaves me then um because that was not on the agenda that will come back to our next meeting agenda clarification what the city council gets is a preliminary agenda nine days ahead of time without the materials and attachments that's correct so i actually don't think this is going to do much for us we're going to get an agenda with simply the statements the questions arise from the material the staff material that we get right well so to make that more general then it would be may i ask what how how much lead time there is for the city council for their materials their materials are posted thursday or friday so still 72 hours their meetings are on tuesday so it's a little bit longer so even a day might be helpful well i mean well in general can we make a motion to the guidelines that the city well or to have a discussion in our agenda of what we are going to we are going to discuss and potentially take action in a future meeting on what we do want to schedule so now i'm making the motion which the chair generally doesn't do but and i second that and what is your motion that we have on our agenda an item to discuss and make decisions about how we will schedule in the release of our agenda and its supporting material and so that is to be determined we have not we're not coming to that meeting with the numbers already recommended let me check in with the recording secretary are we clear on what the motion in the second is to discuss and make decisions about the release of the agenda agenda and supporting items right i mean it's supporting items right okay about the scheduling of those as a standard time measure of the lead time before meetings okay we so was that a motion in a second well i would just clarifying what she said right then there's a vote right well i don't know that we in general to get something on the agenda of just a second is how the council works you know but this is exactly the question i mean once it gets on to discuss the next meeting and then they vote then it goes on the next meeting so if we want to vote on it now that would certainly potentially i don't know if we can or not but you are correct uh mr chairman that this then sets it up just to have a vote at your next meeting to put it on the agenda for a future meeting and there will be more thought-out motion at that next step we're doing this on the fly right now okay thank you if uh hearing no objection i will join this meeting thank you