 Not only did he have a relationship with the government, but he had a ball in the FBI In this world, you look out for number one With any people take that ball to the grave These guys are on the street. So they're involved in hustling. All right, welcome back into the OG podcast Glad you could be with us talking about that convergence between pop culture and true crime I'm Scott Bernstein along with Jimmy Bucci Lotto and Roberto our producer on the wheels of steel behind the glass So this this week we're going to bring in a guest former FBI agent Jack Garcia Who went undercover into the New York Mafia for two years in the 2000s? Had a lot of groundbreaking work In an undercover role was kind of a Donnie Brasco 2.0 and then kind of fast-forward 20 years and Jack Garcia an FBI agent I believe he was working narcotics and had some some background in organized crime and and him and his superiors decided to Target the Gambino crime family, which at least since the 1980s has probably been the most well-known high-profile crime family in in New York City It's where John Gotti came from Jack Garcia infiltrated a pretty big crew in the in the Gambino crime family a crew that was a ran by an old-school cop by the name of Greg de Palma and De Palma was a confidant of John Gotti's as well as John Gotti's predecessors of Paul Castellano and Carlo Gambino the crime family's namesake and De Palma was also someone that was very tied into the entertainment industry was a kind of a conduit for the New York Mafia and Figures like Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra and Liza Manelli. So, you know, he was a pretty high profile figure both in the Entertainment industry in New York. He ran the Westchester Premier Theatre, which was a Prime venue a performance venue and then he was also a an up-and-comer in the Gambino crime family eventually got promoted To a capo spot under John Gotti and Jack Garcia Got his hooks into Greg de Palma and eventually from getting his hooks into Greg de Palma Was able to dismantle pretty much the entire administration of the Gambino crime family in 2005 took down the boss the underboss street boss and a number of captains So we're very honored to welcome in Jack Garcia Jack kind of talk a little bit about how you got started doing undercover work. Well, you know, it's I When I was in college, I saw the movie cervical and I was Taking it back. You know, I realized finally my senior year and football was not in my sights I decided to say, you know, law enforcement is it and I wanted to be an NYPD officer So I went and applied and of course they had big layoffs back in the 70s So my prospect of getting into law enforcement during really it was becoming less and less and then Suddenly one day I'm watching television and I see an advertisement for Spanish-speaking FBI agents that were in need at the FBI so I applied I figure let me apply for the greatest law enforcement agency in the world and Got in didn't even think twice about doing any undercover I kind of wanted to be like a friend Zimbals, you know, we're in a the thousand-eye shoes the fedora and the three-piece suit and but then I started doing some little light on the cover work while looking for And I found my niche and I think Why was because I got in at a time in the FBI which was 1980 Daddy realized the demographics of our society had kind of changed back then the agents still all look like Hoover types You know, and we started doing more street stuff and then eventually in 1984 We got involved in working drugs and since I speak Spanish fluently That I fell right into place. Well, at what point did you kind of conjure or invent the Jack Falcon persona? Well, you know people think that I I've worked organized crime my career That's you know, that's incorrect. Most of my experience in the FBI was either posing as a Money-launderer or drug trafficker a drug importer because of the use of my Spanish Being that I was born in Havana, Cuba and I came to this country at nine years old. I I This is all I did as I worked narcotics and then of course I did other investigations police Corruption political etc. But always around the theme of buying some Hispanic drug trafficker and one of the guys that I have worked the case on came to me and he said Hey, look, we got this mob case opportunity. We want to bring in an undercover I think because of your experience and undercover as well as the way you kind of carry yourself You may be able to fit right in and I said well first of all I had no idea about Organized crime because I never really worked it. I grew up in the Bronx. Of course. I knew about it But I said to him well, you think I could pass it off. He says well, you know We'll figure out what you know and I looked at it as a challenge I said, you know, I've done all these other on the cover type work. I figured let me at least try this for what it was worth and He told me the story that there was a strip club in the Bronx that was being shaken down by these Albanians and that strip club at one time was Unrecord with the Gambino crime family and to see whether I'd be willing to Look into these Albanians pay them off and as all of those negotiations and discussions were ongoing a Mob captain by the name of Lewis Philippeli came in Right after the Albanians that come in and destroy the place and said look we can make your problem go away But you got to pay us in order to keep them out So they set up a scenario where I would come in pay off Lewis Philippeli and his crew They called him bow, right? Wasn't that both Philippeli? Yeah, both Philippeli. That was his nickname bow and the reason he got the nickname bow I think every other word out of his mouth was bow And the guy is the Cardinals Bowman graduate in the Bronx So I went to Mount St. Michael, which is literally about two miles away but Yes, so both came in and we paid him I think was five thousand dollars recorded conversation to him and his people and It was to keep the Albanians out and the Albanians never returned But the interesting thing about it is as later on as you saw and I got into with break the palm up You saw how the eye they were working together They would do the old classic shakedown where you create a problem or a situation and you offer an opportunity On a solution so in this particular case Albanians came in they demanded money for protection Of course that wasn't happening and then they pulled on the mob guys to come in and say We'll keep these guys out, but instead of paying them. You're going to pay us So what happened after that? We're assuming that they split the money with the Albanians But it was your textbook, you know create a problem and then offer a solution Reading your book making Jack Falcone one of my favorite parts in the book is when you talk about as you're Starting to go undercover or at least consider it You go to quote mob school and and one of my favorite parts of the book is when you talk about how you you actually had to Learn how to eat like a wise guy. I just I love that I think that's really interesting detail and could you talk to us a little bit about that experience and and as you point out you I'm Cuban. I only spoke Spanish at home with my family, right? And you know my mom and dad and my sisters and brothers and all I ever ate was black beans and rice Morals maludos, you know all the good Cuban food and yes, I had Italian food, of course but it had to Be the actual case agent was it an individual named Nat Parisi who was himself Italian and He sat me down and he said listen if you're gonna pose as an Italian You need to know the proper Pronunciation of these fishes you have to know what they taste like what they're made out of because a lot of the mob business takes place over at dinner table and I found that to be of course so true So it couldn't be like it, you know, like for instance, if you were gonna have Brazil you couldn't say Brazil Lee or Give me some You know a marinara, you know Is it had to have been since the world that they had created for me was going to be someone Who was Italian maybe third generation? But grew up with that background so as any family members just like a Cuban would know how to pronounce models maludos or You know black beans and rice and of course plantains They I had to know that at least I was exposed to this type of food in the past And it was not unknown to me now. Just so you know, that was the greatest part of my whole training process I mean, I would get to eat a you gotta eat a feast every night. Oh Every night was a high it was a feast exactly, you know, of course, you know how to eat that the different types of Earths and you know all of the different foods and which actually I'm a big fan of right now you know Yeah, I think that's so fascinating that you're working under cover and actually cuisine and how to eat and the types of foods and Recipes that actually could give you away if you did not do that correctly. I just think that's so fascinating It really gives you some interesting insight covered every every basis as far as When you're gonna go infiltrate the mob, it's so unlike every other on the cover case that I ever did All the undercover cases I used to be the boss. I was the guy who ran it I was the big dope deal of the money launderer Oh, so there is that kind of you know, you came in with power You were talking to somebody with power, but when you infiltrate the mob, there is a lot of Deference that you have to show There's a lot of stuff that goes on in that world that different from every part of the criminal world It's a complicated hierarchy situation where I was I had to get all the details, right? And we know that they went out of their way to kind of verify your bona fide That all of you know, it's a world where usually somebody grows up in a neighborhood and they Seen and they see how they interact as kids high school kids young adults and you know and men So it was one that was gonna be a much more difficult than a lot of my undercover So we wanted to make sure that we had an airtight Background or legend as we call it in the FBI that it would be no matter if it was subject to scrutiny I would be able to pass so one of them was of course, you know I had to create an issue about well, where are you from so the fact that I was from Miami, Florida I was third generation and I left school early my parents died when I was young and of course I grew up around the you know the drug world I was kind of like involved in drug dealing and the good thing about it was I was able to use my Informants and sources that I had out there in that drug world in Miami and other places in the event That was ever questioned. I could rely on having them Be my so-called saving contact, but even as far as parents We went to cemeteries and looked and found Mr. And Mrs. Falcone who had died at an age time and the reason why we had to beat that detail is God forbid I'm down in Miami, Florida with these guys and maybe there was a little question as to who I am and they would say You know what you came from this area, Jack And I knew Miami like the back of my hand because I've done a lot of cases down there in narcotic matters So if they would just say, you know, why don't we go pay our respect? We know your parents fire Let's just see what your parents are at. Well, you know, give them flowers and say a respect now If you don't have that, what do you do? What do you say? So we had a Mr. And Mrs. Falcone that I could go to see and Deliver flowers to and I knew exactly where everything was so in the event They got that far I would be covered The only fear I would have that at that same time the real Falcone kids would be there and they said who the hell are you? Right. Yeah, there's just zero room for error. I think it's just demration It demonstrates just the the amount of detail that you have to go in In into creating the the character of an undercover persona, right? And you have to put each one is different depending on the case that you work with the mob They're very detailed. They want there is that distrust element at all time. There's always like who are you? Where did you come from? You know, who do you know? We had to we had a source who was very well liked and respected by Greg the Palmer and He was able to vouch for me that we had met over the years a gambling in Atlantic City in Puerto Rico and he visited me my family knew his family and then of course we did all this Backstopping where we created this background as to where my money was which was reality in real estate But they suspected and we always wanted to kind of dangle that carrot of the criminal world That I was involved in really with drug trafficking So you wanted to make sure that if they did and I know they checked this out because When Greg the Palmer later on got me involved in a local union I had a full out of form that would include Social Security former addresses now Of course, I had to memorize all of these and they had to be subjected to Scoot me and pass and I know Greg specifically told me in the past He said I know we checked you out. Everything is fine. This was early on So we were expecting that where in the drug world Somebody doesn't do that because there's always you know, somebody who knows somebody who introduces you So none of that would ever happen and if even was mentioned You will get in the person's face and say who the hell are you to check me out? But in the mob again is that difference that respect that you have to show Because those are the rules that have been around since the beginning of the mob You got to adhere to a certain protocol there that maybe doesn't exist in other lines of undercover Absolutely. Absolutely. Can you kind of describe at the time that you were entering into this Undercover role what the what the reputation of the Gambino crime family was in around 2003 and and just for for listeners That maybe don't know a ton about the mafia where they kind of stack up in in the in the world of the five families in New York Well, the Gambino's family had always been the number one family But right around that time they were either neck-to-neck or sometimes it depends on who you ask as being the number two The West Side which is the Genevieve crime family. They're called themselves the West Side They they seem to be more of the Ivy League Organized crime, but we were always in this race Among them as far as that and the reason why what that's done It all depends on the number of men of made men or wise guys good fellows amico nostrils However, you want to call it are in that family and those two seem to have the most Mouth of numbers. It's usually about 250 Individuals and then when you go down and see the other families that the locations or or the Columbos of the bananas then you stop maybe getting in the hundreds and then of course when you deal with Philadelphia and you deal with the Elizabeth crew Then of course those numbers are lower So it was always like a neck-to-neck But the Gambino's had in my opinion had an albatross around their neck in a person called John God He was a celebrity mobster and yet the chin he knew how to run that family They ran under the radar. They accepted please of Vincent gigante just for the for the listeners When he when when Jack just referenced the quote-unquote chin He's talking about Vincent gigante who was the godfather of the Genovese crime family absolutely, he's also was known as the odd bold dawn because he wore a Pajamas as well as a house coat or Around the city he pretended he was crazy reaction that he was crazy, but he was sly as a fox and The chin or gigante. I in my opinion ran the family much better than of course John Gotti did so what so when you were coming on the scene in 2003 it was kind of a At the point where we were at kind of if you were a Gambino you were kind of the John Gotti hangover stage where It'd been about ten years since Gotti himself had had gone away He had tried to install a number members a number members of his family including his son and his brother As kind of front bosses or or or acting bosses and at that point Wasn't there a kind of starting to be a shift in the family from the Gotti's to some other people and then eventually Over the Sicilian group. Well, yes, it was but keep in mind that Gotti We know went to jail in 90 and I think he passed away right around 2002. Yeah, Peter Gotti was named his son of course that was a Total train wreck but Peter Gotti who even to this day still in my opinion is the boss by name old although he's in jail That's that's my takeaway that Peter Gotti still had then you had of course the acting boss Which was Arnold Scutieri who we took down in our investigation? He was a loyalist to John Gotti as well as Tony McGalley So you still had that faction going and I think that after our Investigation and after the other large Gambino Investigation you started seeing more of a shift of more of the Sicilians and Dominic Stuff a little trying to run the organization and of course Cali now You know, he's come to the attention But I still think that because of the law enforcement efforts that we've had over organized crime over the years this Peter Gotti still dangling out there as more of a of Let's say as the boss, but one without power now a days being a boss is not good for business for organized crime Kind of a titular head or a ceremonial boss. Yes. Absolutely. That's my take on it And of course, but you do have the Sicilian influence on there and it seems like the Gotti Name is dwindling. However, we all thought and I know even I was one of them one day killed Cali that gene Gotti might have been involved and of course that was proven not to be the case And that's another brother of John Gotti. So Peter Gotti. I believe is is John's older brother and Gene would be his younger brother. I think that's where he goes Peter Gotti was a garbage man before But he was also of course a criminal gene Gotti in my opinion is the Stone Cold gangster I mean, he's he's hardcore. I think it's more than just your opinion I think it's via via the court record and and informants and he just got out of doing 30 plus years on a Drug and racketeering case and yeah, he's he's a he's Stone Cold Yeah, and that word is but they still the Gotti name and somehow when they're there may be some loyalists involved But you have to understand and as you know this starting guys is that, you know, the mob has totally Shifted there the way of doing business. I mean they've come to realize that you know losing bodies on the streets Is bad for business they come to realize that you know out there now is you want to be sticking to the original roots which the mafia is supposed to be a secret criminal Organization not have celebrity mobsters not being out there making headlines. They should be out there making money So they got rid of all their social clubs where they used to hang out and kiss the ring that Gotti requested now They're no longer doing that. They put on new layers in the actual structure of organized crime When in the past you had what they was called the administration your boss your under force and the concierge Now what they've done is they've acted in their acting forces state forces So they're no longer getting the commissions totally together. They're maybe just having messengers So they're trying to get back into doing what they instead of moving forward like all Organizations and businesses say we want to go forward and advance and catch up with the latest technology They want to go backwards and get back to the original roots of Operating in the shadows and I think they're doing a good job and personally I think the FBI with the restructuring of them no longer being an investigative priority You may see the comeback of organized crime Tenfold five years from now ten years because right now they're growing exponentially. We don't know that we have not We went from five squads in New York alone once for each family and two other squads that handle peripheral organized crime to now having two squads So if an agent is working a case that means that the whole squad is involved in that case It's no longer other guys working cases. So yes, they are going to be cases. They're still going to go on They're going to be wise as going to jail but a lot of them are going into the shadows and as long as you have Loan-sharking book making as long as you have extortion People buying stuff that fell off the back of the truck. You're going to have them off Yep, I call I call them not going away. I call them the three pillars of organized crime extortion Book making and Loan-sharking and as long as those three things exist and they've existed forever and they will exist forever There will always be some form of the mob in your book You talk about Robert Vakaro with someone that you suspected was tied in with the so-called zips that the Sicilians Can you talk to us a little bit a little bit more about that? I think at one point you were hoping to actually Get in close enough with him that you could actually go to Sicilia and meet with some of the Sicilian maviosi who were Connected to the Gambino's right and Robert Vakaro Really was an interesting character. I actually came to like him and you know, I thought he was You know an old-school mobster unlike Greg De Palma who was you know Telephone telegraph and tell Greg De Palma which was great for us in the FBI because every time he talked I had a recorder on Robert Vakaro was different. He was a different guy. He told me that he was part of the pizza connection We were trying to get to him in which I even suggested Well, why don't we go to Italy to Sicily and he knew or suspected that I too was a drug dealer He never asked me he never talked but that was kind of the role that I was playing So we mentioned well one in one time we should go to Sicily. He said well, I still know people there. He told me so This is one of the things that kind of bothered me about this investigation or the shutting down of the investigation was that we never followed that up and They could have been that he might have known some groups there As far as his connection to the Sicilian I Think he has more of a connection and he had a moral connection with Arnold's Gutierrez as well as Louis Boll, Philippelli, but keep in mind Arnold's Gutierrez sold junk too. He went to jail for that So his Vakaro tied in directly to Sicilian I think when he did his first jail time and a state level for drugs because that's what he did Time for he may have connections over there, but he right now his loyalties I've been out of the game now for 13 years. I don't know whether he's tied in with stuff below and the rest, but If Louis, Philippelli is then guarantee is so is Robert Vakaro so for people that have read the making Jack Falcone book this will be a Familiar anecdote, but for those that haven't I would suggest you get out and read it because this was one of the most Exciting parts of the book. I want I want Jack to kind of maybe flesh it out a little bit. So you're at a suburban shopping mall of Bloomingdale's I believe with Robert Vakaro and Greg De Palma and then another kind of lower ranking guy that they called a PD chops and PD chops was I guess being disrespectful to De Palma and Vakaro took it upon himself to teach PD chops a lesson in the middle of a crowded department story he picked up some type of glass fixture and broke it over PD chops his head in front of a Number of probably Onlookers that were just kind of their mouth agape of what they had just witnessed Can you talk a little bit about being there and and seeing that transpire? Yeah, that that was for real and the reason being is that PD chops his last name I Savinci Pete Vinci Vicky, right. He was a big loan shark and money and bookmaker in the Bronx And he was in Greg De Palma's crew. However, he violated for months The rule that you're supposed to a kick up because money always goes up the flagpole and to Report to Greg and it was driving Greg mad not the fact that he wasn't reporting him But that he wasn't kicking up Because all that money meant that he wasn't kicking to Greg meant money was that Greg was not getting in his Pocket, so he went on this mission to try to locate this guy and he asked around Finally, he had found out that Peter the PD chops went to Bloomingdale's Every certain days I forget the days and he would have his girlfriend go Shopping while he went into There's like a little restaurant up there had its cup of coffee and whatnot So he had inside information that on that particular day, which was president's day huge sales at Bloomingdale's and At six o'clock that PD chops will be showing up So I've been his driver drove him and the Carol to the restaurant Now when we get to I'm sorry to Bloomingdale's We immediately go up the stairs and we go to the the restaurant that we know him to hang out That was sitting around looking at housewares just chit-chatting waiting to see if we see PD chops well sure enough PD chops comes in with two women Right away. Greg goes on the offensive. He pulls the guy over. He tells the ladies go powder your nose You know, so they go into the cafeteria and Pete says he tells Peter he goes where you've been this what do you mean where I've been? I'm being followed, but he says you're being followed. We're all being followed. That's the game That's the life we chose and then they get into this animated stuff You haven't been showing up and the guy is saying it started going up being followed I don't want to take a pinch and he says I don't care about pinch You come in and I want you to report tomorrow and you're gonna bring me the fuzzles now fuzzles was a term He used for money so next thing you know you could see because I'm standing on the side with with Robert Baccaro and Robert Baccaro is like looking at some candlesticks and I paid no attention because you know I had a recorder on so of course I wanted to capture the conversation of These guys going at it then suddenly Baccaro gets angry rushes over to Where the two were and he tells the guy he says listen you will show up tomorrow and enough But I don't care about you being followed and of course PD chops is who are you and then that got into who am I? who are you and Baccaro grabs this candlestick, which is like Coast it's cola Costa Bada, which is made out of hard really hard crystal Cracks this guy in the head. You hear like a melon popping. Oh my god I dropped right down the wall. There's blood all over the wall from his head and This guy is like knocked out and he goes to hit him again So I grabbed Baccaro's arm. I go. Hey, listen, he's down. We got to get out of here. The cops are coming So he goes on this is and then he drops the The coast of Boda and at that time this guy gets up. He's bleeding profusely. He goes What did you do that for? Break the pomegranate goes, you know exactly why you didn't wait to tell you and he went on back all these Explosives to the him and then we started walking back and this guy is just up and loud screaming and Baccaro grabs one of the knives that they had and he was gonna stab him and I said I grabbed that from him Right, come on. Let's get out of here. We put down the escalator and as we get down the escalator There's a whole bunch of Security guards, but I guess we're coming up and Greg the Palmer without missing a beat he goes Hey, some guy the guy over there the top of the stairs. He fell down the escalator We get in the car and we took off now on the ride there Greg says and it was kind of interesting the way Greg put on his captain hat He told the camera goes what you did was wrong, you know He says you can't put your hands on another friend of ours. Do you understand and he says I know he said But don't worry. I'll cover this because TD chops a sign to me so if he's got a beef He's got to come to me first before he goes to the boss, but I'll handle all of that But he goes that cock huckers. Excuse my friend Well the next day, you know, we get back into we used to hang out at the nursing home Where Greg the Palmer's son Craig was also a made guy, but he Had tried to commit suicide By hanging himself in prison and he was in a vegetative coma, so we would spend most of the day talking there So the next day sure enough in comes I see Pete Buccini driving up he had gorse on his head like Yankee doodle dandy and Walked in apologize, and I was with the car. So I said the cow there he is so I said you're gonna talk to him and he said at him and Supposedly Greg then we went to lunch Greg said he came in he gave us money He said he's gonna start he wanted to know if you were a friend of ours, and he said and he goes on He says and also Jackie were you also straight now, and I told them soon you will be so That that's the kind of an interesting story that it was because it was surreal now that helped our case Tremendously because now there was an act of violence involved in the case So of course now they're in a situation where they have You know this has escalated their charges by having a display of violence shown in the investigation So just the backup for a second and kind of take us through first, you know Meeting and ingratiating yourself with Greg de Palma, and then how you reached a status with him over I think a two-year period where he was ready to vouch for you with the family administration and actually get you made well, you know it was kind of a And I've write this about my book it was You know you can't go in like in full force. I had to you know I learned from mob school and and of course speaking with other agents and sources before I took on this job of Of course what we all know today, which money and greed is what drives organized crime, you know So I didn't want to go in there like you know all out I wanted to make myself attractive to him by Being a kind of guy who kept his mouth shut, but he was an earner So we did it slowly methodically I tried to do the whole thing We discussed where we had some cigarettes from a case that I had before That I offered him and his driver at he was a bit he was a big smoker, right? And you kind of one of the ways you a garnered favor with him was feeding him Stolen cigarettes right or what he thought were stolen cigarettes. Well, they were he thought it was stolen Cigarettes, but they were actually counterfeit cigarettes from a case that I was working down in Atlantic City at the same time But he was a huge smoker. He had only a quarter of a lung He's had surgery and cancer in his lung that were removed He would take a cigarette that he bummed and the first thing he would do is take the filter out I mean this guy was hard for we would say don't smoke Greg You know, you're gonna kill yourself because I had a how whether we all got a thigh sometime He'd literally smoke packs of cigarettes and what got me at every restaurant that we went to he of course knew the owners He smoked in the restaurant and there were people sitting there and I think right put the cigarette away He was only the most One of me and he smoked a lot. So what happened in this particular case? I offered him cigarettes. Of course, he tried to unload it not him But the the his driver they didn't get the kind of money. So then I gave him a an envelope, which is a You know something within the mob You're always getting these tribute payments and I worked them slowly and gradually I would show up He would come I he kind of like chase me I was the you know I was being hunted by him because he knew that I was around money that I had money and I had Also, I was doing cigarettes. He suspected me doing drugs Then we got into selling him what he thought was stolen Rolex watches and they were really watches that we had Sees from narcotic and other investigations. Somebody's case was some of My extruct dealers that I locked up. We were selling them the Rolex at like barking prices They were like 45 hundred five grand this Rolex. He would then turn around and sell it for eight or nine thousand So he was making money with with me hand over fist with Rolex with diamonds with cigarettes with Even we got involved in the television game. So we was kind of where he Started wanting to be around me the next thing, you know, I started driving him We we forged the friendship, you know, I was with by his side, you know From the morning until like a very late at night. I would drive him here I would drive him to meeting he would then of course the beauty of him was he had such a big mouth He would tell me exactly what was happened at the meeting especially when he met with other mob guys So it was slowly and gradually we developed this friendship and then over the course of it always the very end he started talking about Proposing me he did ask me are you involved in any drug trade now? And I said well Greg, you know, I'll be honest You know, I was because I don't feel about what you did Have you not been involved in drugs in the last five years that so I of course said no I'm not doing drugs now or been involved in he says good he says I'm gonna propose you and he said that he's gonna be Be the way they were doing it at the time now was that for every individual who had died Every mate guy who has died you can have a replacement done And then he was gonna circulate the list and it was gonna go around Family if ever and I and I of course were played dumb because I found it sometimes Since I was supposed to have a background being involved with Cuban drug traffickers that I didn't know that life And I go what do you mean past my name on the list because don't worry about it We passed the list people look at it They want to know if you're on record with somebody else or there's anything negative about you You know, is there anything I should worry about it? And I said no none at all and then finally, you know, that's what he left now We found out subsequently at the end some sources and some of the other Families as well as the Gambino family was that you know, there was a list and if I was included on there But what said everything astray was the when there was word that Joe Massino had cooperated so that kind of canceled the everything around the The last year there and of course the bureau opted to terminate the investigation. So we never really Just for the listeners to understand Joe Massino Was the probably the most powerful mob godfather in New York City? in the 2000s and he turned government informant, which was just a Landmark decision on his part and really sent Just significant ripple waves through the underworld way beyond the Bananos all the way to You know beyond even beyond that the borders of New York City So, you know Jack was working in the Gambino crime family, but the fact that this Banano Crime family Don who was I guess, you know, if there was a commission that was still in existence This guy would have been you know, the chairman, I guess of the commission Joe Massino had had flipped and He and Jack saying that his decision to turn government informant then kind of dovetailed with the end of the de Palma investigation You know, it was like exactly what you said is at that time I remember Greg telling me on they had some connection on the inside and they heard that somebody big at flip That was like conversation. I said, well, you know, who is it? Who's the guy? He says well somebody but no one really knew they just knew that something was amiss and then finally when you know when Two and two was put together that came to rise. It was Joe Massino and and one like he said something that big in the mob world Happened you tend to just put everything on hold and stop it and and not pursue it But also keeping in mind too Scott is that Greg the Palmer was very very Angry at what he saw in the mob and who was house getting straightened out He kept referring that he saw some of these guys He couldn't believe that they're they were making these guys. Some guys were actually paying to get their button Which simply would mean rather than you play with the rules of of getting straightened out Which is usually you're a guy who makes money You're a guy who is Willing to do time a guy who keeps his mouth shut and a guy capable of violence Usually at the kind of the basic requirement tenets of becoming a mate guy Well, that other guys were maybe paying their way to get in other guys were not in his opinions suited for that life so I think That could have been I was it was all right about timing and When the Bureau decided I was of course very upset by it. I Voice my opinion. I talk about it in my book. I just felt that it was short-sighted For that decision to be made because we had an opportunity if I was going to be straightened out that we could have introduced other Undercover agents maybe throughout the nation to some of the other families We could have also been more privy to what's happening in in that world Then just somebody that you know, it's an associate because that will open the doors for Conversations, I mean one of the basic thing we learn And we all know is that in that world when you meet another wise guy You can't just go up to another wise guy and say hey, how you doing is I'm with the Gambino's I know you're from the Lucases you always need a third person to make the introduction Who knows the both of you and when you make that introduction is always I want you to meet Jackie, he's a friend of ours that tells the other individual that I'm a meat guy that I'm a friend I'm part of this This close an Ostra and but if I say to you I want you to meet Jackie He's a friend of mine that puts you on a spot is saying be careful You know, he's not one of us talk to him be friendly to him but don't engage in my business and I was tired It would have been a good opportunity for that to be part of that and also at times when Greg met With some Colombo bosses and captain that I would drive I would be sitting on the table and then Greg would say Jackie I'm gonna go over here and he'll move to another table and engage in mob talk The reason why I wasn't at that table was because I was not a friend of ours But I wanted to be on that table and that's kind of what we should have done get to that table or here What was going on in there and that's why to my opinion getting straight now would have been a plus Because it allows you to be in that table. It allows you to the keys to the kingdom Can you kind of maybe reflect on you know, maybe the one instant or two instances that you felt you were most You had the most exposure the most chance to get to get Maybe found out. Did you ever were there ever situations where you were nervous about getting your cover blown? Well, there were several I mean In hindsight, I I say to myself I must have been nuts. I grew up in the Bronx. Okay. I went to high school in the Bronx I went to a junior college and played football in the Bronx. So I Not Bronx, Westchester, which is next door. So if this case kind of spiraled because originally remember it was to take down The Albanians who was shaking down the club. So it was going to be kind of like a cameo I paid the Albanians boom Alex Rudolph's and company goes boom they go right to jail But then, you know, the fact that Louis Philippeli walks in the fact that Greg the Palmer gets out Because when Greg the Palmer was coming out of prison, that was a shocker He immediately called us not us but the source and met with him and he hit the ground running as far as trying to reclaim his turf and Louis Philippeli told us he specifically said that Greg the Palmer is what it is He's not going to be Involved in this and then our surveillance team because they were concerned for my safety because they thought Greg might be whacked Because keep in mind that Greg had a pension for talking Also, when he was in prison, he tried to take out a guy that he straightened out Nicula Sorcer By paying a supposedly hit man. There was an undercover ATF agent in prison, which is another whole story Scott So we thought that he was marked for death So our surveillance was on on Greg all the time and we kept seeing him meet with all the who's who Meeting with McGowan meeting with the Arnold meeting with this So we're saying what is this guy up to in the meantime? I'm over there worried about Who is going to come in that door to whack Greg the Palmer? So as time went on and on then finally Philippeli came in and he told the source. He said listen. It is what it is Greg got his stripes back, which means, you know, he's back to being the captain He says you want to be with him or you want to be with me? So we went with Greg because Greg Talks a lot So the decision we made was beneficial to What the FBI because we knew we were able to gather information Because of Greg telephone telegraph and tell the Palmer Did he ever talk about the the 70s and him hanging out with Sinatra and and all that whole rat pack crew Oh, Scott all the time he lived in that past Greg was problem with Greg was that he was not technologically Savvy he really felt like communications when we gave him a phone that was wired He talked freely the guy was a train wreck. He lived in that past when all of that stuff was a lot He spoke about his friendship with Frank Sinatra. He spoke all about Dean Martin He spoke about the Westchester premier theater that he claimed was a gold mine And what they did is they it's like a typical mob thing like you see in good fellas Like once you let the mob in if they blow it out whether he blew up that whole thing at the Westchester Which was at that time it was Las Vegas and then there was the Westchester premier And of course they opened up, you know Atlantic City, but he had all the names I mean he had sunny and share he had that Midler Diana Ross The who's who of entertainment went to the Westchester premier, which is a place which was owned by the mob I mean just think about that. That was a mob owned total place and he would talk about his Golfing he would talk about his relationship with Willie Mays He would talk about Leroy Neiman in fact the one instance I drove him a few times down the Leroy Neiman's plate And he used to rob Leroy Neiman blind and he would make money by crying the blues to Leroy Neiman About that he knew a guy. He wanted to buy one of his artwork So he would charge let's say a guy a hundred thousand or fifty thousand He cried to Leroy Neiman he get that same artwork for like 25 or 30 and then he sell it till his mark for fifty a hundred thousand dollars He made a lot and while Lehman was in his studio Greg the Palmer was robbing him because he would bring with him a tube and Inside that tube he would go through the art and just put art in there Walk out with you know He was like I said he was a True criminal. I mean we would go into places. I went one time with him to Rochester Big and toll shop in Manhattan. Oh, this time I look over he's sticking socks in his in his coat pocket He's thinking I'm the way Bobby Cameron you put that away you want that I'll buy it for you Jackie boy, I can't help myself These stories are fantastic You know what I mean is the spot of a leopard. What do you think if not help himself? He was the criminal through and through he would try to rob you He would rob the Pope he didn't care about anybody if I can jump in for a moment Do you think this is speculative of course? But what do you think was in it for guys like Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin to hang around with De Palma and play golf with him and go out to dinner with him What what do you think was in it for those guys did to be associated with the real wise guy? What what do you think that meant to Sinatra and De Palma somebody once said it they called it the hoodlum complex But by being around these guys you assumed their power you assumed their respect And and that's what I think these people Gravitate to guys like Greg De Palma and to mobsters in general Because if you're hanging out with a guy who we know would be a gangster then all of a sudden you've got a little extra kick in Your step now you're a little tougher guy your chest is out a little more because you are around these people You have that label he's connected and I saw that every single time I would sit for lunch at the dinner with Greg and I see people in the business world who literally were Financially successful. They had their lives come in and just frown all over Greg De Palma because he simply Was was the owner of the one-time Westchester premiere theater where people had great memories I mean I used to go to the Westchester premiere on dates when I was a kid This was the place to go was the hottest place in New York And I would sit there and I would scratch my head I go what are these people doing are they nuts and Greg De Palma would take your business card and Then he would walk around with a bunch of stack of crisp of a business card And he would think how could I get over on this guy, of course That's what he did. That is what they do. They are experts in detecting the fears and Curiosity of people and exploiting them. This is what a mobster is all about It's not because they like you they listen I only hung around Greg De Palma not because maybe I'm witty not because I'm funny It's because he made money from me He's so opportunity if I went in there and I told him a joke every single day He would nothing to do with me Everybody's a mark whole life. It's about yeah, right in your opinion. What's the movie that that really got it right when in terms of Depicting the mob and in depicting under cover. Yeah, the and the stuff that you saw firsthand Well, I think that the mob story world It would have to be Bronx tale. I I just I just found that amazing I think child's promissory, you know pegged it I like the way even the the things about he would have these conversations with the kid that whole life I I think that in my opinion did it On the cover work, I you know, there's so many out there and shows and stuff But I go definitely all the time from mob wise is concerned that and then of course the godfather is the You know, that's a classic except part three, but one and two is good I don't I guess I'm in the minority. I part of me likes three. I like three, too No, I like I like the Andy Garcia portrayal of Vincent and three, but I mean, there are there definitely are some flaws It's not quite one or two, but I don't think it's as bad as as everyone makes it out to out to be Yeah, I guess, you know what that people just say it out of a you know Everybody's saying it all the time, but one and two were really, you know I could tell it had some good things in there, but Henry Hill, of course a little bit inflated, you know To stop but I Bronx tale. How about your opinion? Like what's yours guys? Well, I to me that the Al Pacino Character in Donnie Brasco, I think really captures the essence of the the the everyday wise guy like, you know what taking a Sledgehammer to Parking meters to try to you know make a dollar out of 15 cent I mean just I think the the impression about the money you're right the impression I think everyone has is of mobsters are are, you know The Joe Pesci and good fellows or or the Don Corleone or the Michael Corleone and in reality That's that's the you know, that's the kind of aberration though. Those are the high-ranking guys the classy Big money makers You know big swinging dicks excuse my expression You know those are the exception the rule are guys that are just spokes on a wheel and and guys that could really probably work a Nine-to-five job and and be making just as much money as they are as a wise guy You're right, but although every once in a while as you know, there is a tremendous scam That's perpetrated and to this day there is not bigger in my opinion were guys that I was Met along my travels was the biggest internet fraud ever perpetrated on in our society and that was with Richie Martino That was with Andrew Campos. That was with that Mustafa and that was with Tori Luccasio They're Gambino guys these 800 numbers and people were calling that they were calling that and then they started I mean your phone bills of adding at that time remember years ago We would have like your phone bill had like 50 pages Like millions of trees and they would be like a 40% surcharge on something and that would go directly to the mob I know Greg told me which he was a little bit delusional here But he said that his son had something to do with setting it up Which I I questioned but he said that And these guys pled to millions and millions and millions of dollars But he said it was up in the billions of money that they took Internationally, yeah, they made a lot of money on that scan Andy Campos grew up with Puffy Combs I know that yes Well, he they went to my high school right handfuls went to my high school and listen Andy Campos was a Puerto Rican in My high school. I don't know how he became Italian, but that's another Our producer Roberto was just in Las Vegas and Visited the Las Vegas mob museum. It was fascinating to see your display that they had there of all the tape recorders and The little the little pistols you would carry right And I was surprised to see that a lot of these tape recorders were They weren't small. It's not like tech. You didn't have the technology you would have like today Maybe, you know, this was tape and it was a recorder and you know, where on your person does that wasn't James Bond It's all about the time my eye is my undercover was 13 years ago Okay, back then we used to wear what they call when I start doing undercover even in the early 80s We had to wear what they called the nagra and the nagra was this tool real thing that would actually get hot and That you would conceal in your person somewhere and run the microphones either to your chest or as I used to do Put them by my pants Now that led to what they call a mini magra, which was a little bit smaller But they offered tremendous stereo sound then from there We went into those recorders you saw at the show which was called a panasonic are in 36 and an olympic Sure, they were horrible recording. Sometimes you have to pay a lot of attention when you transcribe them But now we've gone digital back at the time that I was doing it We had just gotten into the digital aspect, but back then that was the only one the other Machines that you saw are of course for telephone conversations that you record So the the mob now even on television you see that there are recording devices on watches I remember on phones So we've gone a long way to ensure the safety and the security of undercover agents and Actually people recording conversations, but back then that's all we had was a recording device Which by the way, no matter how small you may think it may be when you're wearing a recorder against a wise guy or a drug dealer That recorder is ten times the size in your head We we're talking about Donnie Brasco I think I remember a story of you that That you would carry a wallet and you're told that wise guys don't carry wallets and that you should you should Keep your money in a roll with that with the broccoli tie on it, right? Right. Those were all little things It's so true. They're just different ways that they do things the mob. It's really it's really amazing Like I even wrote in my book besides the the broccoli was everybody had that on them They would take out what they would call a knot. Okay, which was this huge, you know Wad of money and they would always have this wrapped around and every wise guy I mean, it was a sign that whenever a check came or you went out the bigger the wide or the bigger the knot is The more successful you were if you had a small knot you were a proxter So everybody before they went out must have gone to the bank and changed all their money Dollar bills or something, you know And then it was just your behavior, of course, you know, I never had my nails done What is that nails done? I had to go I went with Greg to get manicures pedicures and and then of course, you know All of this stuff. It was all about looking good Your car had to be spotless and then when you came out, it was all about a show You wanted to give that impression among mobsters that you were doing good because if you're doing good in that life More things come your way more opportunities, but if you can't rub two nickels together Who's gonna offer you a scan? It's all about earning all brass tacks. That makes sense Well, Jack, this was amazing the insight that you're able to shed for for for listeners. I just invaluable This was a great conversation. We kept you a little longer than we thought But but we appreciate you, you know kind of going along with us and and telling us the story of Jack Falcone and everyone go out go to Amazon go to go to wherever books are sold and pick up a copy of making Jack Falcone It's one of the best organized crime books ever written. Jack lived it. Yeah, thank you, Jack It was a real real privilege and it was an honor being here, you know, it's got keep writing those great books of yours And you guys are great. I appreciate your hospitality and you know, three to me nights. Thanks, Jack Thank you. Take care