 So hello and welcome. Once again, thank you for joining us for our program at Mechanics Institute online. We're very pleased to welcome author Susan Meisner for her new book, The Nature of Fragile Things, and also Ron Niren for his new book, The Book of Lost Light. I'm Laura Shepherd, Director of Events at the Mechanics Institute. For those of you who are new to our programs, the Mechanics Institute was founded in 1854 and is one of San Francisco's most vital literary and cultural centers in the heart of the city. The lectures are General Interest Library, an international chess club, ongoing author and literary programs, and our Friday Night Cinema Lift film series. So please visit our website for all that we offer. Also the library is now open, so now you can come down and visit us at 57 Post Street. We're open in person. We're open five days a week, limited hours. So we're very excited to once again open up the library. Our talk today will be followed by a Q&A, so please hold your questions, you can put them in the chat. I just want to mention that if you'd like to purchase both books, The Nature of Fragile Things by Susan Meisner and The Book of Lost Light by Ron Niren. Those can be purchased either online or in person at alexanderbook.com or any of your local independent bookstores near you. I'm pleased to welcome these two authors who have novels that tell stories of love, of loss, tangled relationships, and resilience centered around the 1906 earthquake and fire of San Francisco and its aftermath. And before we begin, I'd like to offer our biographies, short biographies of our speakers and guests. Susan Meisner is a USA Today bestselling author of historical fiction with more than three quarters of a million books in print in 18 languages. She is an author, speaker and writing workshop leader with a background in community journalism. Her novels include her recent novel, The Nature of Fragile Things, which earned a star review in publishers weekly. And also, the last year of the war, named to real simple magazines list of best books of 2019. And also, as Bright as Heaven, which earned a star review in library journal and secrets of charmed life, a Goodreads finalist for best historical fiction in 2019, and a fall of miracles, which was also top of the book list top top 10 women's fiction titles in 2014. She is a native of California, and also is a writing workshop volunteer for Words Alive, the San Diego nonprofit dedicated to helping at risk youth foster a love of reading and writing. And we're very pleased to welcome Susan here for the first time. Thank you for having me it's my pleasure truly to be here. Before our other guests, Ron nirens fiction has appeared in the Paris review, the Missouri review, the North American review. Limer train stories, Mississippi review 14 hills able use the Lucy review 100 word story and other publications. These have been shortlisted for the oh Henry Awards, and also for the push cart prize. He is also a co or author with his spouse and a writing partner Sarah stone of deepening fiction, a practical guide for intermediate and advanced writers. He is also former editor of furious fictions, the magazine of short, short stories. I wonder how short they have to be Ron earned his MFA in creative writing from the University of Michigan, and he is the recipient of a major hotwood award, as well as a for our prize in playwriting and the Roy W. Memorial Fellowship as well as the Andrea Bosch off price in short fiction. He is a fellow. He is a former Stegner fellow, and he also is teaching fiction writing at Stanford University. So please welcome our very accomplished writers and authors and guests. Thank you so much, Laura. Thank you so much to you and the Mechanics Institute and Pam for having us here. Wonderful. I'm going to just start off with a few questions and I like to ask both of you what drew you to the 1906 earthquake and fire as a as a catalyst or a centerpiece to both of your novels and maybe we can start off with Susan so you're since you come from afar from San Diego. What drew you to writing about San Francisco. That's a great question. It's not my first novel I have written other novels before and I've always written about far fun locations which is wonderful. I've written stories to have taken place in New York and London and parts of Germany. I never really written anything that takes place in my home state of California. And I thought, maybe I should be looking at stories that happened right here where I'm from, not only because I invested in this state, but the research would be easier would it not if I were closer and definitely in 2020 that was the case is that it helps to find things to do at home. So I started thinking about well what has happened in my home state of California of historical significance that hasn't had a whole lot of light thrown on it. And the 1906 earthquake came to mind first because it's a pretty defining moment for California history. And I just didn't see a whole lot of novels that were taking it up as a backdrop and that interested me. There are a lot of different reasons, you know, one of which was the, just the impact on ordinary people. And so when I started doing the deep dive into research I knew I had a backdrop for a great story. Yeah, I think I originally was thinking of this story as being a certain contemporary times and Connecticut which is where I grew up. I moved here in the early 90s to the Bay Area but there's going to be a story about a boy who grows up being photographed by his father every day as part of some obsessive project to capture time and I started to ask myself well why, what's the significance of this for the father and I thought it would make more sense if this were set in the early days of photography. This is the protégé of Edward Bybridge, the famous photographer who in Palo Alto in the 1870s first captured the horse in motion, and did this pioneering work. So that really led me to think, okay I'm going to set it in California, which is where I'm going to be, because it was living and also thinking about the historical interesting events at the time. And as Susan said, the San Francisco earthquake is just this fascinating event. Such destruction and such resilience by the refugees and by the rebuilding people rebuilding so I just really thought that resonated with the themes of trying to hold on to time and what happens when we lose just about everything. And then started diving into the research and just finding so many treasures. Yes, and I also want to mention that, you know, Moybridge has a has a very close connection with the Mechanics Institute, because he exhibited his, his work at the Mechanics Institute fairs. Over a course of between 20 years. So we found we just went into our archives in 1857 Moybridge had an exhibition of his books at the fair and then later on in 1876 at another fair. He exhibited his photos of Central America scenery and so you, you must have had a long relationship with us and in various ways so that's, that's also really exciting to know about about the history that goes into your book and also because it's also compelling with Leland Stanford and Moybridge and all of the characters the local characters and and persona that that are writ large in our San Francisco history. And it leads me on to my next question is to, I'd like you to both talk about your protagonists, and of course in both books and Ron and your book there's the father, son relationship and the family relationship that is very inclined and then, you know, in your book you sort of like this, this kind of accumulation of relationships that kind of it's not or it's, it's not organic because you know it's not organic like Ron the Kyland is it's it's sort of a mishap a relationship so if you can talk about your protagonist and Ron, since you're here in Berkeley, why don't we start with you. Yeah, well I started off with this idea of a father photographing his son every day from the boys birth onward and imagining a young man growing up the center of his father's project I he admires his father completely as a child and is proud of his partner work. He is certain that his father is making a great contribution the way ever my bridge did in documenting the aspects of motion that we can never get see with our eyes before. So he's convinced that this is going to do the same for time. And then, as things do his relationship with his father gets more complicated as Joseph heads into his teen years develops a crush starts seeing there's also in the book. Kylander Arthur's niece comes down that when Arthur's wife dies and childbirth, giving birth to Joseph so credit a certain mother figure to Joseph. But she has a very different vision of the world from Arthur, she Arthur is very orderly rational to a fault. He's somewhat rigid in his thinking, although we can also be quite kind, and Karelia is much more passionate and impulsive. So Joseph grows up between these two figures, loving both and admiring both, and they do not see eye to eye. So, so that also complicates Joseph's view toward his father, as he grows older and starts to share some of Karelia's skepticism that there's more problematic obsessive traits. And he wants more independence he wants to find pursue his own path. And he isn't quite sure if his father is a genius or a madman and yet they are thrown together by the earthquake. And they have to look after each other. So I wanted to explore the tensions of that, the father and son both the love and the attachment and the desire for a separate self. That sounds so interesting. Yes, my relationships in my novel, as you say, are rather convoluted. It's, it's a good way of I guess I'm describing it. But it begins the story begins with a male order bride, and her name is Sophie she's living in a terrible tenement situation in lower Manhattan, at a time when the tenements were truly terrible in New York and she wants out for a lot of reasons not just because she's making pennies a day and living in squalor. And she's telling you the story and so as, as the first person point of view as Sophie is relaying her story to you the reader. It's obvious that there are things about her past that she's keeping buried. And she's not quite honest with you but she's honest about not being honest there are things that are wanting her. There are things about New York that want her to get out. And so when she sees a male order bride ad for a widower in San Francisco who wants a new wife for himself and a new mother for his five year old girl she answers the ad and he accepts her and sends her a train ticket and she takes the train out to Oakland gets off the train gets on that ferry and she, you know, ends up in the ferry building meets him for the first time and they go straight to the courthouse and she marries him. And she's, you know at first she's quite content because she has about 90% of everything that she's wanted. She's got a nice place to live they live in a nice house near Russian Hill it's very pretty. He's got, you know, he's nice he's, he's kind in a way he's able to provide he's a very good provider. And she's got this little girl to love and she thought she would never have a child to love because she already knows that she can't have children. And she's out of New York, and so for all of these reasons she feels like she's quite content, but there's just one little niggling thing, and that is that there's something up with her new husband and she can't quite figure out what it is that he's slightly aloof. He doesn't quite, she can tell he's not quite transparent with her. But she decides to dismiss it because she has 90% of everything that she's long wanted, and mainly because she's falling in love in love with his little girl, who does not speak by the way and that's attributed to the fact that she's grieving the loss of her mother. And she's able to dismiss it until a certain day in April 1906 when everything starts to come crashing down around her and I mean everything and you know of course what happens is everything begins to fall apart figuratively and literally in in April 1906. Yes, well, thanks for that, for both of those descriptions and to kind of set the scene for us. So I think the next thing is we love to hear you read from from your works, and since you already wet our appetite. We love you both to read from from your new books. Susan, would you like to go first. Sure, start kind of in the middle it's not true middle but I thought I would start with a scene that actually takes place in the mechanics pavilion, which as many of you probably know was destroyed in the 1906 quake and fire. And so I need, I need to give you a little bit of background information for you to appreciate what's happening in the scene. So the quake has just happened if you know it happened at five, after five in the morning, and they've left their home on Russian Hill because it's not state safe to stay making their way to the hospital in that beautiful courthouse structure that unfortunately also did survive. It's still standing as they're making their way down the hill, because with Sophie is a woman who is in labor, and she's helping this woman get down to the hospital, which was in the basement of that old beautiful county courthouse and city structure. And so they get to, they get to the, you know, the courthouse structure was where the hospitals underneath in the basement and all the patients are being evacuated out of it, because it's not safe. The columns have fallen the building is pretty much already starting to fall into ruin because of the quake, and they're moving everybody into the mechanics pavilion. So it's Sophie, and this woman named Belinda who's in labor. Of course she has to go into labor on minutes after the quake. And with with them both is cat Catherine, who is this little girl who does not speak who Sophie is now stepmother to and very very much attached to. And so it's a little after eight in the morning nine in the morning. I think perhaps by this time. It's a little afternoon when this when this picture scene starts, and the baby has already been born in the mechanics pavilion, which you might know was like an arena. And the night before there had been a roller derby the night before. And so if you can picture like a rodeo grounds or any other type of like where a circus might be held. That's what it was like and so she gave birth on the floor of the pavilion with other women holding up blankets for privacy. So the baby has just been born it's a little afternoon in the afternoon, and the story then begins. And so this is Sophie speaking. So she's looking down at this beautiful baby that's sort of like a reminder that life is precious and life is resilient because in the midst of all this chaos. And I might add that the pavilion was not only the evacuation site for people coming out of that basement hospital but people were being brought to it with injuries from all over that part of San Francisco. And so the inside of the pavilion at this point is quite chaotic with many wounded coming in. And then of course people trying to evacuate from the damage from the quake. And Sophie says the moment is as perfectly beautiful as a moment can be. I want it to last forever. And for five or 10 blessed minutes, it seems like it just might, but then a shout rings out across the sea of mattresses across the masses of dead and living the roof of the pavilion is on fire. The nurse who helped Belinda earlier has returned and with her are a policeman three sisters of charity in starched black habits streaked with dust. The nurses speaking to us in a falsely calm voice. I can see that she is concerned with the enormous task of transporting so many people out of harm's way. There must be four 500 injured in the pavilion now. I help Belinda to her feet while the nurse and the others assist the other women in our little group of mattresses. Belinda seems unable to comprehend what is happening. Face is void of expression but her eyes tell me she can't believe that again we are fleeing danger. She's also weak from childbearing and not having eaten enough and she begins to collapse seconds after she stands. One of the sisters reaches for Belinda's baby. And Belinda shouts for me to take her. The sister obliges and hands me the child. A policeman sweeps Belinda up in his arms and begins to head to the exit with a sleeping baby and cat to attend to I make the quick decision to abandon my travel case. Hold my skirt cat I tell her don't let go. Cat looks up at me with fear filled eyes but obeys. We race to follow the policeman who is carrying Belinda. We emerge onto the street and into an orange gold world of smoke and ash. Above us hundreds of firefly cinders from an approaching blaze we can't yet see our lighting on the roof of the pavilion which is already hardly aflame in several places. I can't see the other fires. The air all around us is a smoldering blanket obscuring everything but what is right in front of me. But I can smell them feel them taste them hear them. The city streets were all about the ruin of the city hall across the street like snow. Automobiles and wagons and trucks, every kind of vehicle that can be pressed into service has been. These are now being loaded with not just the wounded but the bodies of the dead from the pavilion. We are told we will be taking refuge at Golden Gate Park two miles away. We are placed in a laundry delivery truck along with several other female patients in various stages of ability and health. When Cat and I and the baby reach the back of the truck we are told to find our own way to the park. There is only room for the wounded and sick in the commandeered vehicles. Don't leave me. Belinda cries out as I hand the baby to a man helping the women get situated inside the truck. This is the infant to Belinda and she begs again for me not to leave her. We'll find you at the park I promise I'll call to her. The door is shut on Belinda and my last view of her is her shouting that she wants out of the truck. Another man wraps on the vehicle to alert the driver to get moving. I can't tell which direction is west. The sun is masked by smoke. I can only follow the trucks and autos and carriages in the masses of people doing the same. The fireman is heading east to the fairies now. I hear someone ask why the fire brigades are not putting the fires out. And someone else says they have been trying all morning to put them out with the earthquake broke all the water mains below ground. The fireman can access no water. It is nearly laughable that as I hear these words, we are marching west on a peninsula that is surrounded on three sides by the sea. There is no water in every direction but one, but no way of getting it to the streets. Those who would put out the fires can only do, can only do, can do little more than watch them take what they want. And then I hear a boom off in the distance and then another. The fire has gotten a hold of something explosive I'm thinking. The fireman in the military uniform several yards away says the army is dynamiting buildings here and there to create fire breaks and hopefully starve the fire of its food. I look away from the direction of the neighborhoods near Russian Hill and urge cat to quicken her steps if she can. She and I have taken long walks before. I know she can manage a two mile walk but cat tires after the first mile. There's no ordinary stroll we are on everything about it is wrong. A man fleeing with his own family of much older children offers to carry here and I don't even ask cat, if she is all right, if that is all right, I just let him scoop her up and we continue our track away from the fires and toward the sand hills surrounding the park. Is that enough of a read for you? Is that enough for everyone? Yes. Thank you. Oh, Susan, I was just getting chills recalling as you were reading the scene in the inside of the pavilion because, you know, we have all these articles and we have documentation but to actually bring it to life with the characters and what was going on in there. The pavilion is the building. It is in the location of the the Graham Auditorium opposite City Hall. It was the site of this incredibly huge fair. And then it was transformed immediately into a hospital, sort of a makeshift hospital, but a lot of tragedy came out of that because it did burn down and they tried to save as many people as possible. But there is a very tragic situation all around. All right. Thank you, Susan. And now we'd love to hear from Ron. Thank you. That was, that was really amazing. I love that passage. I'm going to read a passage that comes 60s after the earthquake when Joseph, who's about 15 years old at this time, and his father and his cousin Karelia have fled the city their home has been lost to the flames they believe. And I was fascinated by the, all the stories of the many refugees who fled to Berkeley and Oakland and other cities around the Bay, who hadn't, cities that hadn't suffered as much damage and who took in so many refugees in their addicts and basements and in their backyards spare lots. Just so much generosity from fact to family members, but also to complete strangers. And so, Arthur, my photographer has a wealthy patron called Thomas Halligarten, he's sort of his version of Governor Stanford, who lives in the Berkeley Hills so Arthur, and they have a complicated relationship with, with Mr. Halligarten at this point, as you, as you do with patrons sometimes. But they, Arthur is determined to, to go across the bay to the Halligartens. And so they are sharing tents in the backyard in the Berkeley Hills with some other artists who have been refugees and who have found a patron and Mr Halligarten. So this is a little taste of refugee life. All you need to know about this scene is that Joseph is sitting on a balcony with Thomasine, Mr Halligarten's daughter, who is about the same age as he is. Thomasine seemed content to sit with me. And so we stared at the city across the bay, as it's black and ruined slowly disappeared in the twilight. I leaned closer to her, as if to get a better look at the city, but it was her profile that I studied. How would I not seen before how beautiful she was. I was trying to formulate some sort of compliment about her eyelashes. When a noise came from the yard below. A figure approached the house, moving on certainly, tracking back and forth. A man I didn't recognize. He stopped swayed and fell. Thomasine cried, bolting into the living room. I followed her down the stairs and out the door. Thomasine leaned over the man lying with his face in the grass and turned him over. His eyes were closed. He wore a long, great coat with a singed hole in the front, large enough to put a hand through. His hat had fallen off, revealing a considerable mass of long black hair. Thomasine kicked his shoes and trousers, and the reek of earth and whiskey came off him. Thomasine ran into the house. I thought to get her mother, but instead she returned carrying a vase of flowers. She yanked out the bouquet and upended the water over his face. I admired her quick thinking. Thomasine stood and gave a shout, half rising on one elbow. A flower stem blackened and flattened by rot clung to his stubble cheek. He wiped his face and looked around, groggy. After a moment he extended his fingers toward Thomasine. She set the vase down as if she thought he wanted her help getting up. But instead he grasped the flowers by their heads. She let go and their stems reluctantly released from her palm. I needed to get that hand looked after, darling, he said. She held up her palm in the moonlight. Beads of blood appeared where thorns had dug in. I didn't notice they were roses, she said. Mrs. Hallgarten came out and sent Thomasine back into the house, eyeing the vase as if the man had been caught thieving. I explained what had happened. Irritated to have my moment with Thomasine broken. I said, Mr. Hallgarten told the man, he struggled to his feet. My name is Nicholas Forrester, he said. And the whiskey is, in this case, more medicinal than diversionary. He lifted his hands in the air, showing us they were scraped and swollen. Under Mrs. Hallgarten's scrutiny, he seemed to sober up. He said that he had crossed to Berkeley on Friday and spent a damp night in the university baseball field, jammed in a small tent with five Scotsmen. He'd come across the newspaper's list of refugees staying in Berkeley, and saw his friends, the Vissers and the Crowleys, were at the Hallgartons. Before he could leave, soldiers commandeered him to help them dig the trees for the camp. Three hours later, they let him go, and the Scots shared some of their whiskey. I'm sorry to have collapsed with exhaustion on your lawn, Nicholas said, and I'm grateful to the girl for the dash of fetid water to the face. Mrs. Hallgarten sent me to fetch Peter Visser, who expressed delight to see him. He's an actor, Peter told her. You have to forgive him if he can't help making a dramatic entrance. After he had settled around the bonfire, Peter and Sebastian bombarded him with questions. First, Nicholas asked for a basin of water into which he plunged his head, holding back his long dark hair with one hand. I had thought him older, but now, clean-faced, he appeared to be in his late twenties. I not poured him a cup of cold coffee and sliced him some bread. Nicholas told us his story between mouthfuls. After the earthquake, he had been writing a letter, for reasons he couldn't recall. Then all his furniture jerked about and snow fell. I said to myself, I can't be that drunk. But the snow turned out to be flakes of ceiling plaster. He flung himself under his desk. A tremendous ripping noise came, followed by silence. When I looked out, he said, one wall had vanished, and my bed had slid right out like a biscuit from a tin. A pile of bricks. Three stories below. I'll stop there. Great. Thank you. Thank you, Ron, for bringing us into the, into, into Berkeley and as a place of refuge. And I'm just, you know, very, so impressed with how your writing style from both of you is so descriptive. It's so it's, it's both personal and bringing the personal into the historic that that wonderful compliment is really a delight. And it's a delight in both books. And so I'd like to also ask both of you about what effect the disaster has on the characters and the plot as you go along. And if you could comment on that and how that how that influenced you and also influences the characters and the structure of both your works. Ron, do you want to start? Sure. My characters lose just about everything on the earthquake and fire. Arthur, who has been taking a photograph of Joseph every day from four sides. Since Joseph was practically born, he's lost, he believes he's lost all of his negatives and prints from this project that he's been planning to take public for for so many years. And so it's devastating to him. He has as having a hard time letting go. And at the same time, Joseph, and his older cousin Karelia are finding themselves in a community of artists. And it's, it's like a lifeline in some ways to them. They've both been previously just revolving around Arthur and his vision. Karelia has been working as a receptionist in Arthur's photographic studio and Joseph has been trying to live up to his father's vision. And now they're here all these wild artists, painters, actor, who are have been leaving the beginning in life in San Francisco, and their stories and their, their merriment really open up new doors for both Joseph and Karelia. And they, the artists end up putting on amateur theatricals in the backyard to keep their spirits up and be at spirits of other refugees. And Joseph starts acting and finding that is sort of his, feels like his true vocation to be able to not just be in front of the camera for his father, but to be an acting stories, which is his true passion. And Karelia is also pursuing her own photographic vision very different from Arthur's. So, because I was just struck by all the stories of the refugees, not just the terrible losses, but also the resilience, the ways they, you know, people would walk through the camps at night in San Francisco and elsewhere and just repeat the sound of guitars and mandolins and people making life a new and in a way to, despite the thumbing their nose in some ways that all the destruction and devastation and I just love that so even with terrible loss there's that possibility for, for the invention and rebirth. Yeah, with my characters with Sophie in particular, you know, she was able to distance herself from what she didn't want to see because she had 90% of what she wanted. And sometimes we need something big, a big catalyst for us to deal with reality. And that's what the earthquake was for her because not only did it affect her physical living situation. But she was no longer able to ignore her situation with this man that she married and I won't tell you why because I don't want to spoil it for anybody who might want to read the book. As she and her stepdaughter and this woman named Belinda, as they're fleeing the ruin of her home, and this woman Belinda is in labor. It's, it's, it's setting off more than just fleeing away from, from danger from the quake and the fire that is coming, but she's also running now from other dangers to which when you, when you read the book you'll understand. The fire, what they did to San Francisco and maybe you've seen the picture but there's a very telling picture it's taken from I believe a dirigible, and it's an aerial view three days afterward and it just shows the wasteland of downtown San Francisco you know the 500 city blocks. And all you can see are the skeletal remains of that beautiful city hall structure that took 26 years to build at an astronomical cost of 6 million and there's basically nothing left of it, but it's skeleton and everything around it is gone. It kind of laid bare everything. And so I use that imagery for Sophie now because she can no longer ignore what she wants to ignore everything's been laid bare. She has to move she has to act. She can't pretend that she doesn't see what she doesn't want to see, especially if she wants to protect this little girl who she loves as a cat or her own daughter. So the earthquake and the fire, both, both of them together act as both a catalyst to force her into action she has to start making decisions. And it also lays bare her situation, so that it's, she can't ignore it any longer. And I like that imagery and I like the idea that you know all of us experienced times in our life where it feels like your world is falling apart. 2020 was that way for almost all of us, some of us to a higher degree than others, but we all felt the instability of what we always thought of as are just the basics of life everything was unstable last year. And for some people are far worse than others. And so it's at those times when it feels like your world is caving in crashing it around you that you have to rise up. Because if there's one thing you cannot do when your world is caving in is you can't just stand there. And so it forces you into action. And a really good book. I think if you think of all the novels that you've liked, loved. It's because the character was forced into action and they had to start making choices. And those choices had there were stakes involved. You know if they didn't, if they didn't do something something would happen. And the more I use that imagery the more I was able to I hope craft a story that shows you that Sophie, after the quake and fire she can no longer just stand there and do nothing she must make decisions she must act. I love this idea of, you know, through this disaster, and also exactly how it parallels our experience today you know what is, what is lost, what is exposed what is left. And also what is created or what, what motivates us to, to take next steps or, or take action. It's a very, very powerful themes. It's so close to us right now. You know, I wanted to ask about your research. If you could say anything about things that you discovered that were shocking or interesting or unusual about this pivotal time in San Francisco, and also with the reinvention of the city or the necessity have a reinvention of the city or to go to places like to create in Berkeley and to live in other places. So anything that just was that outstanding for you in your research or surprising. Yeah, well just follow up on what Susan was saying I was just really impressed and, and just made happy by the or by or inspired by the resilience of the citizens of San Francisco and the surrounding communities in the time of disaster and it was just really helpful to have those stories in my head as we went through this particular that the height of the pandemic just everything seems so unstable, as Susan said, and it helped to to be remembering these stories of the, the generosity, and even the spirit of the people on Susheance that that sort of kept them going, the little bits of diary all that I came across the historic things that people scrolled on walls, the number of wedding licenses jumped sharply in April and May, there are all these, they call the weddings. There's this really wonderful description in an old Sunset magazine article about a wedding that by fairly well to do a couple that everyone was dressed and whatever they had. And by, you know, there was, there was no place to get by a wedding present for the couple so just would brought molten bits of jewelry or plates that they had dug from the ruins of their burned homes, or their sort of earthquakes to give, because there were no shops, there were no banks open. They had to borrow all the glasses and all the wine because apparently soldiers alluded the hostess's wine cellars and pantries. So it's just just the kind of inventiveness of sort of dealing with that and the determination to, to, to carry on. And I also just wanted to mention the city had this massive rebuilding effort that took many years, and they held this great world's fair in 1915 the Panama Pacific International Exposition, which was a their way of saying, you know, look, we're back, we're, you know, look, and they had huge connections of dedicated to agriculture and horticulture and art and science and industry, just showing off so much to the world from global, many countries participated in creating resilience. And it was this glorious thing that stretched to almost all of 1915. So I ended the book with the 1915 Exposition, some scenes there because I just felt it was a really great way to convey that spirit of, you know, we're going to build back and create this glorious way of celebrating moral resilience. Yeah. And of course you have to also know for those for those of you who don't know about our mechanics institute history, our building at 57 post street was completely destroyed in the firing quake and so we had our new building, which was opened in 1910. So we had to do a lot of recreating of the mechanics Institute along the way so thank you Ron for mentioning that and also, I want to also make that connection to that are president of mechanics, and a lot of the staff were very involved in the planning and the organizing of the 1915 hand Pacific there. So it was, it was so important to San Francisco, history rebuilding and reclaiming its place in in this country and also in the world, because it was an international event of great importance. Anyway, thank you for for bringing that to our attention. I just feel we're both folks are just, we're just so in the middle in the middle of the story of the story lines of each of your of your novels. Anyway, yes, let's hear from Susan. I was, I was impressed by the exact same thing really the resiliency and that moxie and determination to rebuild also to the generosity of the rest of the world. I remember reading a list of all the different monetary gifts that were sent to San Francisco, and also tangible things I think Oregon sent several train cars full of provisions. The nurses Chicago sent me Minneapolis sent flower, the Rockefellers wrote a check, I just, I, I liked hearing the stories of the nation, you know coming around a sister city, and doing what they could to help, but the resilience of the San Francisco is truly amazing and I mentioned to the, the exposition when I talk about this book and and the rebuilding of the city that in only nine years they were able to hold the World's Fair is really phenomenal. And if you want to like when we're done here tonight, and you get off of this zoom call go on to your Google search engine and just search for images of the 1915 World's Fair in San Francisco the buildings that were built are just amazingly beautiful, they're beautiful. And if I'm not mistaken, they were built on landfill, and the landfill was the, the detritus of the city that had been destroyed. You know so they trucked all that, all the, the ash and the broken buildings and the crumbling they trucked it all north of the arena area and they dumped it made landfill, and then they built the exhibition exposition on really what had been left of the city so it's kind of it's kind of poignant to me that that's what happened. And the buildings truly are they're just remarkable it's amazing to me that that that could happen in only nine years I think it takes tremendous determination to pull that off. And it was it's just nice to see to that. People are willing to rebuild what was taken in the place that it was taken, you know, lots and lots of buildings rebuilt where they fell. The Palace Hotel, it maybe scooched over a block, but it's pretty much in the same place where it was before and I just, I don't know that just seems to me to be, it's just remarkable. And when I, when I think of the city now, and what it went through 100s, some years ago, I think there's a lesson to be learned about not letting, not letting devastation, keep you in despair, you know, but to you recognize the loss, mourn the loss, but then, but then find a way to move on and, and move out. And that, that to me it was particularly remarkable. Yes, great. Thank you, Susan. I think we'll open this to the audience Q&A. So, Pam, if you'd like to come on board here and Pam Troy, our events assistant is going to read off a few of the questions. Well, the first question is from Sharon Stone. Susan and Ron, I love the ways you both have these large, wonderful casts of characters. Did you have any particular challenges in managing them or surprising discoveries as you were writing? Well, I can start with that one, I guess. This book actually took me three tries. And my first set of characters that I wrote 25,000 words and it wasn't going anywhere. Well, I just, the story was, it was not, I could tell that if I kept going with the characters I had, that I was going to end up disappointed. And it was actually my editor who pointed out to me that the story was going nowhere. So I started again, this time with these characters in this book. And even again with that second try, I wrote 50,000 words before I realized I still don't have it right. And because I was trying to involve all the characters, so that the different female characters in this book, I was giving them all chapters, and they were all able to tell the story. And it was when I realized that this was only great at all. But I finally dialed into the story. I got in the groove, and I just made it heard. So it's Sophie telling you the story. She's the first person. So everything she wants you to know tells you, and everything she doesn't want you to know, she's that. And so it was, it was helpful, I guess, to have those false starts because I didn't really realize who the story belonged to, until I had those false lines, it was only Sophie. That's that makes me feel better. Susan, because I also went through experience of, in my case, I just kept reading and more and more characters, and the number of characters I've taught from this book could probably fill in another novel with the same number of characters, because just I was fascinated by so many artists at the time period that I wanted to clear a cameo appearances that I thought I just got to put this person in. And people inspired by artists and behemians at the time. And they just didn't make the story go. So I had to, had to prune them and find the story and I kept, you know, as I was in the latter stages of rewriting this novel I just imagined my three primary characters Joseph Arthur and Karelia. And I imagine myself throwing a lasso around them and pulling them closer together, because, you know, they wanted to go off in their own directions and, and the tension came from, from being still being tied to each other and dependent on each other in some ways. So, so that kind of helped me focus. And then whatever other characters I needed to help them tell their story. That's great I love that you remember writers who out there get a lasso your characters and that's great and visceral advice and, and Susan yes just the who the voice whose voice is really telling the story is so important and, and it's, it's sometimes that's the biggest discovery, as you've indicated. All right, we'll continue a couple more questions. Yes, the next one is from Zoe hindle. Thanks to you both for sharing. How do you know when to stop researching the historic details, even though I know a lot about San Francisco history. I feel so nervous to decide what I'd researched enough, but that I'd still have inaccuracies based on things I'd never thought to research or assumptions I'd made. Well, for me I set a date to start because if I didn't set a date to start writing I would never start writing because research is fun and writing is hard. And so for this particular book I remember I set a date on my calendar for June one, and I wrote it down on my desk calendar and I wrote it down in my phone that this is the day I begin, no matter how I feel about how much I've researched because the truth be told, you'll never feel like you know it all. So you have to begin at some point. And the other thing is is that it's only as you're writing at least for me. It was only as I was writing that I realized what I still didn't know like what I lacked. And some of the research that I had done I didn't need at all. And I didn't know that until I started writing so I would say you know be feel pretty good about where you're beginning, like do do your work. For me it takes about four or five months where I'm just researching I don't do anything else I'm not writing anything I'm only reading and taking notes, but then I have to start. And then once I start. That's when I begin to realize what I still don't know and need to know, and what I can really just let go of. That's great advice. I gave myself a year, because this was my first novel I just gave myself a year to take notes and research and try to figure out what I might need and even then I couldn't but after a year I was like okay I got to start writing because otherwise I'll never, never know enough. And, and along the way, the story took turns and I was like oh well now I have to research this. And, and research inspired a lot of my story when I would come across things for good and for bad, the wrong turns as well as the eventual right turns. So, but yeah you can never know enough, and knowing that, you know, maybe there's some scholars out there who will be reading this and saying well that actually happened on September 6, not September 5. You know, but the important thing is that the story is told you try you do your best, and the main thing is the story. And does it does it ring emotionally true. Does it does it convey the spirit of the times that in a certain way is more important for a novel. Imagine how historians do it, but ask them when the next time a historian talks about writing their books. Well there's this this kind of the second, this next question is from Emily Sellers and it's kind of it's similar. Great readings I look forward to driving into your novel I'm curious about how you balanced research with writing. Did you do research into the history of in the quake first and then launching to developing your story and characters, or did you find yourself doing a bit of both as you developed your drafts. It must have been difficult to reign in your desire to know more about the quake and its aftermath and I guess one thing I'd add to that is, when you were, you know it sounds as though you did research. You were writing you've come upon something but did you basically just stop writing, while you researched or did you did you try writing, you write a draft and then do your research and then go back and possibly amend things. I, I would wouldn't really, I mean I might stop for a day or two, but, but I wanted to keep up the momentum. And at the point that I was in the middle of the novel I sort of knew enough that it was just filling in details for the most part. And the thing that the 1950 next position I had read a little bit about, but it wasn't until quite many drafts into it that I very, very late in the models development that I put that in. So I started to research it in earnest, and if there's people who are interested in learning more about it was this great book by Laura Ackley called, I think San Francisco is Jewel City, beautiful book which also has lots of pictures and information. And, and that one I just come out. I think when I started doing the 1915 part of the book. And that was perfect timing. So, yeah, there's certain deputy along the way. And great research first sometimes at the end when you post. Yeah, for me I don't do a lot of writing when I'm researching I feel like when I'm researching I am filling my covers with groceries, those like shopping and building the pantry, if you will. So that when I start writing, I don't have to go shopping I have everything that I need right the book, my full pantry. And so I read as much as I can. And I'm interested as a crack into the world. This book I think I read three times just to prepare my head for the for the logistics of what happened. And so that book I recommend if you want to know what was it like scientifically and logistically and all of that. And then this book was invaluable to me it's called three fearful days. And what this man has done his name is Malcolm Barker. And all the different newspapers and libraries and historical societies and he gathered all of these firsthand accounts so the whole book are just excerpts of firsthand accounts because while Simon Winchester is amazing book told me what it was like. This book of all these excerpts of firsthand accounts told me this is what it felt like. This is what it smelled like and how it looked because these are people that actually lived through it. So having both of those types of books is very helpful research for your research. And then of course once you start writing. I think you'll you'll figure out what you need to know more of and sometimes you won't know what you'll need more of until you start writing. I have just one quick question. As historical writers. Do you think people often miss when they're researching an era when they're trying to write believably about an era are there things I mean a lot of times everyone knows well you need to get the clothes right you need to get the science right but what are things that people often overlook when they're writing historical fiction, and that might just slip by their awareness of what needs to be researched or what they need to have a handle on. I think for me I want to pay particular attention to what does the culture value, because values change, and what, what a society deems as important changes, and it's, it's, it can be easy to drop and you know colonialism wouldn't fit, and to have things happening that are just an acronym stick to the point where they take your reader out of the historical moment. And you know you're you're trying to be as accurate as you can while still using language actually today to tell the story. But I think if, if you really want to pay attention to what people cared about is to like for me I went to the public library downtown in San Francisco got my library card, and then was able to avail myself of newspapers from from every day, like daily looks at the newspaper because the newspapers the day to day life of the city. And you can tell what people care about by reading the front page by reading the society page by reading the opinion page you can people are thinking about because it's the it's the, it's the, it's the language of the day, the local and daily I would say no matter what area you're writing if they have a newspaper, you can access the digital archives. It's worth it to become a member of that places library yourself of historical, digital ties newspapers. Yeah, I totally agree with that. And the newspapers were so helpful, I went to the Berkeley Historical Society, and they very kindly got down their old editions of the Berkeley Gazette from from 1906 and I just paid through day by day. And for, for many days, just to get his experiments okay, a sense of what it was like when you don't know what's coming next, because any given day you're, you're right there with them they don't know what's going to be happening, what they're going to find and so having that lived experience really helped me get a sense of how they thought, and, and you know what, like you said what they valued. So, just jumping off from what you were saying Ron about Laura Ackley's book which is really stunning. One of our members Lee Bruno also wrote about the 1915 pan Pacific it's called panorama tales from San Francisco 1915 pan Pacific international exhibition and so both of those books are tremendous resources, if you want to get into the exhibition, really wonderful with incredible photos as well. I have a couple more questions, actually, what I want to ask you is if you would like to query each other about each other's works. This is just totally gripped Susan by your novel and just just swept along with it and I, I was just curious to know how you weave plot and history, because you know you have this fixed event. The earthquake which where you found out what exactly happened and yet you will be able to leave your character story into it so seamlessly with the story of their lives that was unfolding. So I'm just curious how do you, how do you get them to to weave together so seamlessly. Oh, thank you very much. I think for me what I try to do is, and this is how I dialed back into the heart of the story after those two false starts was I just got back to the basics of story which is really every good story is about a character who wants something. They have it, they go after it, and they meet obstacles along the way if you think of, you know, Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, she wants to get back home, she can't get back home without seeing the wizard. And so she has to go to the wizard to be able to get back home so we know what she wants, we know why she wants it, and all along the way, she's meeting obstacles that it get worse and worse and worse. So for me when I put a character in a historical setting is rich as this one. I still have to give Sophie something to want and it's got to be more than just surviving the quake and fire has to be more. And so, you know, thinking about what my character wants, it can be a day long week long month long search to figure out what she wants and why does she want it, and what obstacles is she going to meet along the way and how am I going to be able to surprise the reader along the way to because, you know, tensions with the story and nothing. Nothing is as tense as being throwing a twist or a turn in the story, the reader didn't see coming. So that's the main thing I try to focus on is what, what does the character want, and why do they want it, and why don't they have it. And the more I can dial into like a universal need. And the more I hope that readers at all ages will be able to empathize with my character because if they either want the same thing or they know somebody who does they'll be able to emotionally connect with that desire and, and hopefully I can do that on the page but I was going to ask you, how has your MFA helped you in your journey as a novelist because I don't have one and I've always wondered, like what, what does an MFA do does it open up new worlds to you did it open up your imagination places you've never dreamed of. Thank you. That's a great question. I think in some ways it required me to enlarge what I was doing right came into the MFA writing, you know I have been writing for a number of years, quite seriously but being around other people with different aesthetics and different stories to tell you know look around the room and you're like okay wow this person is talking about this and I'm just writing a story about some teenagers hurt feelings. I love my game. Wow this person's language is just so, you know, so tight, so full of imagery that makes me want to my game in that direction to so just being being exposed to their passions, the people they read and loved and who inspired them and so much so many writers that they love that they had that had stuff to teach me to. So this really great diversification and challenge and inspiration for me. And just to wrap up, I would, since both of you are both writers and teachers and workshop leaders. Just to leave us with a, you know what, from your own experience, do you like to guide writers towards. Well, I always tell young writers, because that's why if I'm going to be in a position where I'm able to impart any kind of knowledge it's usually with with young writers. I'm talking children teenagers is I tell them that writing is like any other exercise, like swimming for example, you don't get better at it by wanting to be better you just have to swim the more you swim the better you'll get at it. And it's like a muscle that when you work it gets stronger, the more you work it the stronger it will get. And if you think of Olympic swimmers, and we're going to be seeing some because the Olympics are starting tomorrow. As you know that swimmers like Michael Phelps, he didn't just start out winning gold medals he swam a lot of laps in a pool where no one was watching, and he got stronger and better each time he did. And writing is that way to you start out by just exercising in the pool. When no one is watching so it means really just exercising your writing muscle every day find something to write about every day there's always a prompt you can find on the internet. It allows you just to put your thoughts down on paper because even if you feel like I have nothing important to say today. Still right right anyway and maybe the lap you do in the pool that day isn't that great but you still exercise the muscle and every day. Yeah, that's great advice. I think I also maybe because of my experience in the MSA program, I just also just urge people to read widely. Books that are being published now, and books that were published decades ago centuries ago from other countries in translation. Outside the genre usually read poetry nonfiction inspiration can come from everywhere and I remember the story that one of my teachers and Pollock in my own program told us was that when she was in college taking her first creative writing course he was going to be a science major. But she took a course where the professor taught a story by Grace Paley, and Eileen had never seen read a story, narrated by a New York, you know, a Jewish New York voice with all that that humor and insight, and she was like, you can tell a story like this. And I feel like the more we read the more we come across these liberating examples are like oh what story can be that now I have never guessed that you find the thing that really opens you up in a way and lets you do something that you didn't know was possible. Wonderful. Well I want to thank our are inspiring guests and writers. Our are really gorgeous. So please everyone get to your bookstore or online or wherever and please enjoy these two wonderful novels. I want to thank Ron Niren and Susan Meister for a wonderful conversation about the art of writing and your works and we look forward to having you back. Thank you everyone, and we will see you very soon either on zoom or alive in person. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Bye bye. Bye. Thanks for thanks everybody. Thank you.