 What do you think my answer would be? Happy animals okay to kill? Shoot in next time to find out. Well, how do you feel about paying farmers to mistreat animals? They're going to die hard from. Hello. You don't know me by the name. Hello, how are you? We're out here in the lovely city of Bristol. We just found a nice little spot here with some Christmas trees, a little Christmas festival here. We've got a sign here that says all farmers mistreat their animals, proved me wrong. I know this might rub some people up the wrong way because everyone's like, well, there are some farmers who love their animals, but my argument is every single person who farms animals for their flesh or for their by-products mistreat those animals. So let's see what the public have to say and if there's any good debates, let's go. We know if no one sits down, then everyone agrees. You smiling, you want to sit down, mate? You've seen me before? Let's go for round two. He was smiling though, that's when you get him. The ones that sort of look and go, I want to wreck this vegan, they're the ones. You want to have a discussion, my friend? You sound, you're good at debating, I know you are. Everyone likes trolling on the internet, but no one's sitting down face to face, do they? Do you agree? Agree or disagree? All farmers, what do you reckon? Agree. You agree? Yeah. What about you, my friend? Don't really care, it's noise, mate. Don't care? No, I don't care. Agree and don't care. All right, no worries, brother. So I ain't nothing to do with you, though. They're concerned you. Well, I suppose like why would I worry about anything bad? You know, why worry, just keep to yourself, don't worry about. Oh, someone's getting stabbed over there. Oh, well, doesn't concern me. Just might as well let it happen. What was that? Oh, Charles been kidnapped. Oh, might as well just, oh no, don't worry, doesn't concern me. Oh, look, there's a dog being tortured. Oh, it's not me? All right, don't worry about it. I totally agree. You agree with me? Why do you agree? Tell me, what about some farmers? Aren't some farmers nice to their animals? I think they're farmers, no, definitely not. Why is that? Because they send them to the slaughterhouse. They're murderers. All farmers are murderers. Okay. Okay. There we go. Not gonna argue with you there. Take it on, mate. You agree with me? I agree. You agree? Wow. Good work. Guys wanna have a debate? No. Come on, you're a debate king, I hear. Well, we have time. No, you can, 10 minutes, come on. Well, this is the topic. Oh, what's the topic? All farmers mistreat their animals. I don't know enough. I'm really sorry, I don't know enough. Well, you could still have a position. You could be like, well, it's not all farmers or something. I don't think you should take a position if you're not particular. Okay. Prove that to be true. I know. Okay, there you go. See, there you go. So lack of evidence. So how do I know all the farmers? You might say, there could be a farmer. That doesn't mistreat them. Is that what could be a position? It doesn't mistreat the animals. And that's got to do with your family. Exactly. It's just one. There are a lot of farmers. Well, you can have one that 1% of the time they don't mistreat them. Yeah, that's true. What do you mean, mistreats all their animals all the time? Yeah. What do you mean by mistreat? What do you mean by animal? Oh, okay, see, there you go. Why don't you have a 10-minute discussion with me about it then? Just play devil's advocate if you want. I do. Oh, you don't have to. But basically, you want to know my position on it? Go on, yeah. Okay, so the second you... Because when I say farmer, they're growing those animals for a purpose, aren't they? Sure. To make money off of them, to sell their flesh, skin. Yeah. Something comes out of their body. Some systems farmers, they just do it to support the start. I would say that without their permission to do that, that's not fair. And to treat someone unfairly is to mistreat them. Which is, it's injustice. Oh, so you mean the animals? The animals are someone, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's when I say someone, because they are an individual, they have their own experience. They're not recognised as persons, but that's because the law hasn't caught up yet. Humans weren't recognised as persons in some parts of the world for many years. But they were human beings, but... Yeah, I can't guess my point. No, I don't... So my point is that when I say a farmer, they are farming animals to slaughter them for their bodies or they're farming them for some other purpose to meet some demand. They're treating them as property or resource. And when you... This is in the UK, so you don't understand. Everywhere. I'm saying, you pick the place. If they're farming animals for their flesh, milk, fur, you name it, they are mistreating those animals by virtue of either killing them or exploiting them for what's not theirs, treating them as property. So that's the same for fish and shrimp and all living things, or where's your line? Well, I wouldn't say any living thing, because the line is sentient. Yeah, so it supports... And this... We can go into that, like, but if they are farming fish, I would still say the same thing, they're mistreating those fish. Fish can experience pain-suffering their sentient beings, yeah? Bees? Bees? Be farming, I would still agree, is mistreatment of those bees, yeah. No, I don't disagree. I mean, I don't disagree that there is pain-suffering. I completely agree. Even if there was no pain-suffering, I'd still call it mistreatment, because... Oh, it's kind of abusive, though. It's not just a welfare thing, that's why I'm saying it. You can mistreat an animal, giving them the best welfare. You can put them on a truck, get them chopped up into pieces. It's mistreatment. Anything that experiences anything, you can't control in any way, so you can't... If they want to experience freedom, I don't think you should take that from them, unless you're protecting them. So you know they're intelligent enough to want to experience freedom? Is that a thought that they have? I mean, even if they... OK. Let's just say they didn't know what freedom was. OK, I would still say that it's mistreatment to use them for your own gain. So let's just say you had to keep... Like, it's in a sanctuary, say. They're not farming those animals. They're offering them sanctuary from... They've been rescued from factory farms and that. OK, they're offering them sanctuary and they're looking after them. They can't just let them free, because they would die out in nature. They would get attacked by the elements, wolves, foxes, say, in the UK. So, but they just protect them. They look after them. They do what is best for the animals' interests as far as they can in this world. But a farmer only acts in their interests. OK, so in a sanctuary, if they then start charging for you to come see those animals, but the animals don't know, they're still experiencing freedom. For what you said, they're still using them to profit themselves, make gain themselves. Is that mistreatment of those animals? So making profit, say, in their sanctuary, let's just say they're making money profit to help look after those animals. I wouldn't call that mistreatment. No, because they're making... It's not for their own inner sanctuary. These are charities and a vegan animal sanctuary. What they do is they get donations and they help build infrastructure. They feed the animals some of these costs. They don't get paid, no one there gets paid. Oh, that would get a living cost. But farmers aren't... They're doing it solely to chop their bodies up and eat them or to sell their... They're also doing it to earn money and make a living as well, just like those people in the morning. Yeah, but they are also chopping them up into pieces. OK, so then it's not about... So it's not about what's in the animal's best interest. Sorry, I'm just trying to understand your original thing. So it's not about we're doing it for our game. You're saying that the issue is the suffering of the animals. It's not about... No, no, no, you don't have to have suffering animals to mistreat them. That's for sure. Because you can just like... I don't have to mistreat you, but I could walk up behind you. I mean, I don't have to cause you any suffering, but I could walk up behind you, stun you and chop your body up and I'd call that mistreatment of you. Yeah, yeah, but like, let's just say like, I offered you sanctuary in a hospital, say you had a mental handicap and you didn't really know where you were and I need money to like keep that... This is in your interest that I get money flowing through to help you. All right, it's not like you're a means to my end. You're a means in yourself and I'm there looking out for you, you know what I mean? I'm not just like, I've got you here to make financial gain and I'm gonna kill you and bring some new cute ones in or like a zoo, where I'm imprisoning them, making money and so on. So I think I understand you're like, promising what you're saying completely and in principle agree. What's your alternative? What's the solution? Well, I think veganism. I think it's a practical solution and veganism is not without harm. You know, I'll say that, but when you talk about practically for everyone, if everyone went vegan like, tens of billions of animals would stop being exploited and killed, would stop breeding them into existence You'd have millions of cultures and people across the world who don't have a job, don't have an income for their family, don't have... All that again, taking them as an advocate here, I just think sometimes... Maybe you're making a strong claim there that they wouldn't have a job if everyone went vegan. Like, new industries wouldn't form or... Maybe not in the... Maybe it's fine potentially in the UK but not across the entire world where maybe they don't have developed places as much and you need... Okay, we could entertain... We could even... I could even grant you that. Let's just... let's grant you that that people would be out of work, okay? Do you think we should keep industries that systematically torture, murder, sentient beings in place because of jobs? Because, you know, they use that argument in this... I'm not saying I necessarily think that either. I'm just saying if you want to make change, I think you need more sustainable and serious answers as opposed to... If we took this argument to someone who could make change, like, I can't make change. I'm in this particular conversation. I'm not going to stop all farmers from working tomorrow. So I think the way to go about change and the way to get an outcome is by having fought through solutions to the problem. Of solutions? Yeah, we can talk about that. But I was just granting you that that's true. I don't know that that's true. I'm just giving you charity with that. I actually don't believe that's true. I believe that there are plenty of industries that would sprout out of... You know, if everyone moved away from animal farming, we moved into, like, more sustainable plant farming. Other industries would pop up at just more sustainable industries. But I still... Even if that weren't... wasn't the case, I would still say that it's not justified to mass murder billions of beings because they were using this economic argument in the slave trade in America as well. You know, and we still abolished that because it was wrong, you know what I mean? Do you think in 50 years' time, people say 100 years' time, 1,000 years' time, people say we can't murder these insects who are walking on the floor with crushing insects or we're... We can go to insects. Or murdering plants, because some of them have... No. No, no, no. Because they have complex... A lot of plants have complex nerve systems or ecosystems because that's what life is. So how do we know that they don't have experiences in the same way that other creatures have experiences of them living things in the same way? So we can get cows to... Which animal off the table for you? I'm not taking... No, but like, so you want to go down to insects and plants, but can we get pigs, chickens, fish all off the table and you say we should make those illegal to kill? Because it's really not a question that they're sent in. Maybe oysters are in a grey area. OK, I'll give you that. Some insects are in a grey area with sentience and their capacity to experience suffering and well-being. And for someone to matter morally, they have to be part of the moral universe. They have to experience well-being, suffering, some type of... You know what I mean? OK, so we can get those animals off the table. Will you agree? Would you say it should be illegal to harm them needlessly or mass breed them and harm them needlessly? I think, like I said at the beginning, I'm not... I haven't done enough research, haven't listened to stuff like that. I think in principle, everything you're saying makes sense and I'm not disagreeing with you that. I'm just taking notes out of it. Well, we can just say that those animals, the ones that we know are sentient to a certain degree... I'd go do 100% know that, because I don't even know you. No, no, exactly. OK, that's called solipsism, I think. Yeah, like, I don't know you're sentient. You don't know I'm sentient. But we give each other what, the benefit of the doubt. So I do communicate with you quite clearly and I see my likeness in you, so I go, OK, I can see your experiences are clearly similar to mine, so I assume you're sentient, but I can't do that. What if I was mute and couldn't speak and, you know, I had some disability where I couldn't really communicate, you would still grant me benefit of the doubt that because I had a brain a functioning nervous system that I'd feel pain suffer. So animals, they have a brain functioning, a nervous system connected to their brain, you know, and nerve, you know, they've got pain receptors and things like this. Yeah? Yeah. But like the animals that don't have that, say like an oyster, we could get into this discussion of like, what about an oyster? And I'd say they've got the beginnings of nerve, gangly eye. I don't care about them as much as I care about a chicken or a fish. All right, I'm not going to come in, protest your oyster, eating festival as before. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I would say that there is definitely a hierarchy. Yeah. You know what I mean? What about the animals which are completely happy throughout their life, if they're completely, I don't know, I'm in this free range pipe off the cuff, they're a free range animal. That is, see, it's fairly happy. What about those animals? What do you think my answer would be? Happy animals okay to kill? Shoot in next time to find out. Maybe, yeah. Happy people okay to kill? Thank you, thank you very much. Thanks guys, thanks for the chat. I mean, I guess he wanted to know what mistreatment is because like, at a sanctuary, if you are generating income, you know, would I think that that's mistreatment? So I thought he made a good, he asked some good questions to get to the bottom of what I thought, but I obviously don't think that's mistreatment when it's in the animals' interests, you know. Come on. You know, you can just give your opinion though. I'll give my opinion. Come on, come closer, don't be shy. That's all right, what's your opinion? What's your opinion? Do you think all farmers mistreat their animals? Yeah, I'd probably say so. Why do you say that? Because they're using animals for their own gain, right? They're using animals for their own profits. They're not, no matter what they're doing, they're always using animals, yeah, they're using them. I think the keyword is using, not like, do you know what I mean? So they're using either their bodies or their, or like eggs or whatever. They're exploiting them. Yeah, exactly, that's the word I'm looking for, yeah. Without permission. Yeah, without permission, obviously, yeah. And like, to mistreat is, you could treat someone unfairly is to mistreat them, yeah? Right. And it's unfair to take animals and breed them against their consent and just do what you want to them, yeah? No matter if it's a humane farm where the standards are much higher, if it's a backyard farm, you know, they're all going to the slaughterhouse, they're treating them as property, essentially. Right. And if you take a person, you treat them as chattel property, you've essentially got a slave. Right. They're not a person anymore. I've heard anyone that has disagreed with you, yeah? People, probably in their mind, but you are very intelligent. You are. Thank you. Because people at face value would look at that statement and go, well, no, they're a good farmers because everyone eats free range or I only buy the best meat, like I always just get the free range eggs. Sorry? Yeah, well, well, there's different standards, but if one's better, it doesn't mean it's good or ethical or fair treatment. There's probably farmers that also think that they're like, oh, I'm different, right? Compared to a factory, sort of, like care. Some people would draw a line between the treatment of animals and the mistreatment, won't they? Whether or not they're farmed for meat or for ethical purposes, you know? But if you even, if you take the most, like this hypothetical farm, which is really in percentage wise, most animals here are factory farms or chickens and pigs, always indoors, really. You find some free range pigs, but they make up a, you know, minority of the pigs that are slaughtered. You know, so even if you take this hypothetical, happy farm where they're supplying like a small percentage of the population, even in that case, I would still say, like you're saying, it's mistreatment. I guess the animals are commodity at the end of the day and that's the world we live in, but choice is a massive factor, like I eat a moderate to small amount of meat, my daughters are vegan, and but this is... Well, I want to know, how do you feel about paying farmers to mistreat animals? I certainly wouldn't want animals mistreated, but... You're actually donating, so like if I had a charity, right, and I helped children at that charity and you donated for me to help children at this charity, you put in your money towards, but when you put your money towards the animal agriculture, you're paying the farmers to do whatever they want to the animals, and it's very heavily unregulated. Like you could get our SPCA approval one week, and three weeks from now, your animals are living in squalor and, yeah, like who's coming in there every single? Yeah, I mean the world is changing and it takes people like you guys to fight. No, it takes people like you, and are you a meat eater yourself? Yeah. So you also, like I was as well, I probably won't eat the boat for eight years, but only because I hated being a hypocrite, I thought it was unjust and wrong, and the animals didn't do anything wrong to me as well, they're innocent beings, like we're not imprisoning them because we've got some indictment against them, but we treat them worse than we do prisoners, you know, way worse, chop them up into pieces and eat them. Never done that in any war that I know of, maybe some obscure war where there was cannibalism, but any horrible injustice you can think of, they never chopped the victims up and burnt them on the barbecue out the front. That's how badly they're mistreated, they're not even viewed as victims. Is this on a YouTube channel, do you have YouTube? Yeah, yeah, Joey Carbstrong. Joey, let me put it in my phone. But I appreciated your, you actually got there without me even having to say anything. Where was this? Carbstrong. Carbstrong. I got a lot of videos like this. I also got a bunch of, I just went into a few farms around the UK and seen horrible stuff in all of them. All of them. Nice one, man. Cheers. Thank you for your discussion, I appreciate it. Oh, wait a second. Before you go, I'll just give this to people because this is a little Christmas guide and it will show you, you just scan it with your phone and it will show you where all the, I'm actually trying to get people to stop eating animals for Christmas and here's some documentaries on that. But if you just scan that, it'll show you all the vegan food is in all the supermarkets. Thank you. Nice one, cheers. Some documentaries on there. Cheers, brother, take care. It's a cool discussion. They seem really intelligent and open-minded and he got it straight away. But he's a meat eater and got it straight away. That is a true vegan in the making right there. Britain are very proud of their farmers and so it is quite, it's an indictment on all farmers except for plant, obviously plant farmers, you know. So I think maybe someone's gonna get a little bit antsy about it. It doesn't work. A cow can't look after a calf. Why not? Because it's not me to do that. So they get chopped up into pieces. So what are feelings? Do you think it's a cow? I'm just saying, do you agree now, agree with the sign? At least. It says all farmers mistreat their animals. I'll rip that down once I'm finished, to be honest, because I don't mistreat my animals. It says all farmers mistreat their animals. Prove me wrong. Oh, okay. All of them. I can't prove you wrong on that one. I do. You can.