 Welcome back into the original gangsters podcast. I am Scott Bernstein along with my partner in crime my Very very valuable co-host the doctor Jimmy Bucilato. Hi everyone and behind the glass we got our MVP producer Benito Agusta. Thank you, Benny for being here and helping us out This is an episode that I am just chomping at the bit to jump into the deep end for I Am have anticipated this interview more than maybe any that I've done in the last couple years and for for people that have been Just kind of finding us on YouTube original gangsters podcast We have a really deep archive from when we were just Audio for about two and a half three years. We've gone to video now in the last six months So if you're just finding us on YouTube hit our channel and go and you know dig into the crates and we've done a lot on Hip-hop a lot on pop culture a lot on black mafia family and we're gonna throw it into a blender and Get this thing mixed up into some really really nitty-gritty investigative nuance and insight into the Murder of rap pioneer Jam Master Jay part of Run DMC It's 20 years ago this week that Jam Master Jay was murdered in his studio in Queens and the alleged perpetrators One man by the name of Ronnie Washington to Nard Washington and Carl little D. Jordan Are going on trial 20 years later in the coming months first-degree murder charges in the homicide of Jam Master Jay aka Jason Micell and Today we have we always go straight to the source and I am very very very happy to welcome a board to the OG podcast Frank Owen who is the go-to source on the Jam Master Jay Murder he has been reporting on it for 20 years all of his reporting has been groundbreaking his first piece in Playboy magazine back in 2003 really gave the the context to you know, what was Surrounding this this at that point unsolved homicide and he just had another Bombshell report that dropped on the anniversary, which was October 31st 2022 is a 20-year anniversary and he broke some big news related to Jam Master Jay's murder being tied to a botched black mafia family drug deal and that the guy that Jam Master Jay was dealing with Who for the last 20 years we've only known as an alias as Uncle has now been identified by by sources to Frank as Black mafia family co-founder Terry Southwest T. Flannery. So Frank. Thank you so much for coming on board. We are just so excited to have you great Thank you guys So Frank, let's just like I said, let's let's just jump into the deep end here 20 years Later Jam Master Jay His murder carried out 20 years ago this week in Queens You know anybody that's a fan of hip-hop knows that he was a part of the trio run DMC that brought Rap and hip-hop to the mainstream they were at the forefront pot You know, they were the pioneers pioneer in the in the ascent of hip-hop and rap music He was the DJ he crafted the image the all-black adidas inspired look and Just let's talk about When you first started reporting on this and maybe how you got to what you reported an 03 and then we can jump You know the 19 years later and how we're where we're at now well Well, if it started with actually I was on holiday in Vegas after I just finished my first book clubland the fabulous rise and murderous fall of club culture and This guy called on this guy called schoon Curtis schoon had approached Playboy magazine Basically offering inside dope about the Jam Master Jay murder Basically schoon had been identified as a suspect in the case by the NYPD over this drug deal that he and Jay did in 1995 the drug supplier ran off with the money and schoon was mad at Jay basically threat. I think I mean according to my sources. He tried to kill him, but But it was schoon's money the financed the deal, but Basically Jay eventually paid him back So schoon Approach Playboy Wanted to clear his name offering inside dope about the Jam Master Jay story They assigned some other guy to do the story. He got scared Because of the people involved in it. You know in Jay's murder they were looking around to Find somebody else to do it. My name came up because I was I mean I was used to dealing with gangsters I think I didn't cover them a mafia connected drug ring at the limelight nightclub We just it's notorious nightclub in New York I mean the guys who ran it were so upset by my reporting they tried to kidnap me off the streets and Take me to Staten Island to cut off my thumb an Idea they got from watching this movie called the Pope of Greenwich Village. You remember that movie the Pope of Greenwich Village? Yes bedbug Eddie They took my thumb These idiots right so I was used to dealing with these kind of mobsters So basically schoon introduced me to I mean He was the one who so he was the first person to tell me that Jay was involved in drug dealing, right? And that basically as a middleman he would like travel the country and would set up You know buyers and he were basically introduced You know people he knew to this guy called uncle and and they were set up like drug deals That was basically he was kind of like a middleman. He was awesome very hands-on like so He was the first person who told me that but that was kind of difficult to to I mean to rationalize because you know like if you remember run DMC. They were always against gangsterism They were very much You know at least you know in public anti-drugs they did you know public service announcements Rapid about staying in school and staying off drugs, you know, that sort of thing so this and I knew Jay from my previous life as a music critic and So it was a little shocking to find out that Jay was involved in You know in drug dealing and you know a lot of people just didn't want to believe it because you know, I mean Jay was very beloved by people in Hollis Queens. He was very well liked They didn't want to kind of tarnish his image, you know And people and a lot of people just didn't want to believe it, you know, that Jay was involved in drug dealing So, you know, basically I started digging around I mean the first thing I wanted to know was why the hell was he doing this, right? I mean one DMC was one of the biggest You know rap groups was the biggest rap group of the 1980s. They sold millions of records, right? How come he was involved in doing drug deals? He didn't need the money Well, it turns out he did need the money because what happened as so often happens and not so much today because rappers are much More financially savvy in those days, you know, it wasn't me I mean, he spent a lot of money during his heyday John the raising hell heyday Spent a lot of money on his parents on our friends on his sister, you know on cousins and forgot to pay his taxes And drink it, you know, it should be noted that when Jay Z Gets paid. He's getting paid Just as Jay Z When M&M gets paid he's getting paid as M&M when run DMC got paid They had to split that three ways What you're giving to Russell Simmons and Def Jam and the other thing is that not many people know this But Jay was never officially a member of the group. He was not contractually a member of run DMC Right, so now I talked to Russell about that and Russell says it was split three ways that he got the same as Ron and DMC now I heard that wasn't true at all In fact Russell always preferred Ron because Ron was his brother, but regardless He basically incurred this huge tax bill, right, which you know over time Ballooned to about half a million dollars, right? So and you know and after you know raising hell I mean Ronda and basically Russell sue profile records and that which was the the Record label Ronda MC was signed to just after raising hell So that he put their career and holds for two years the whole lawsuit and by the time they came out NWA had released straight out a comp and the gangster app was all the rage so Ronda MC seemed kind of corny that had fallen out of fashion and And So the next album, I mean it wasn't a bomb, but it didn't it didn't do anywhere near as well as raising hell So, you know, so it's kind of like an old story You know, they they made a lot of money very quickly and then they were no longer making money And then the IRS came calling, you know, so he was basically, you know, he was basically He was looking basically to make money quickly And doubt that the IRS basically wouldn't take because don't forget the IRS had a lien on his earnings, you know So basically everything he was making most of that was going to the IRS So he did what everybody else did in Hollis or the people he knew in Hollis did if they want to make money in a hurry He turned to dealing drugs and the first time he The first drug deal he did which was the drug deal that schoon was evolved. It was a disaster He got right. He got robbed. He got a lot basically. He got robbed. So but that didn't deter him. He kind of You know, he He continued to you know, oh over time he became not a major play in the drug trade But he was you know, it was like a profitable side hustle Met this guy called uncle Let me know Jack one second. I want to I want to contextualize so It I think it's kind of foreshadowing and I want to get your opinion on this What? So I think it's kind of foreshadowing that the first drug deal that that or the first major drug deal that Jan Masterjade tries to pull off 1995 He's robbed at gunpoint. They don't care who he is. I mean, I don't know if they knew who he was No, I was actually somebody who was he supposedly a friend but The bottom line was that the person that he was doing the deal with They didn't care that he got robbed. They were like you still owe us the money for that deal Yeah, well my point is the stakes were established Early on whether he knew them from a distance at that point. He knew them you know from You know at front street there and So my point is he knew he knew the stakes and You know fast forward to what happened in 2002 and you have a situation where And you point this out in your article with one of your sources Ten kilos gets you killed but You know this is no this isn't child's play Right. Well, you got to bear in mind the initial deal was just for a key So he started off small. He wasn't doing he wasn't doing major keys He wasn't moving major keys until he met uncle It was uncle at that point He then became a major player in the drug trade, you know, the the initial deal he did was only for a key Right, so he wasn't like doing major shifting major keys until he met uncle It was uncle that enabled him to because start making serious money as a drug dealer and Uncle, you know and uncle Uncle basically the relationship with uncle was that you know uncle would you know Wasn't just supplying him with like 10 keys 20 keys 30 keys at a time You also wanted to invest in In this movie in a film. Yeah, he was doing yeah called forever frank And you know that was very typical now, you know, I didn't know at the time it was black mafia family But that was typical of the black mafia family. They were always looking for like legitimate projects to They definitely wanted to Promote a an image of hip-hop Entrepreneurs I you know from my reporting and research I question You know, how much of it was lip service how much of it was Creating a narrative to dispel the the notion of the federal government that they were these burgeoning drug kingpins so but I That's I guess neither here nor there Perfect ways to learn the drug money. Yes. There's certain like things like night clubs independent record labels You know an independent movie is a great way to learn the drug money. And they were they were investing in as the you know as black mafia family, uh, just so just so uh, you know, again, everybody knows Let let everyone know the lay of the land here. The Flannery brothers two siblings from southwest Detroit Took a a very small group of childhood friends and lieutenants in metro Detroit in the, uh, you know early 1990s and by the new millennium by 2000 they had Parlayed that and expanded to you know, over a dozen states and major cities They had become, you know, what I've coined the Walgreens of wholesale cocaine They in almost in in miraculous fashion. They did it By diplomacy more so than uh brute force and the the Flannery the Flannery brothers are really the the definition of the You know, we're the og podcast. They're the different. They're the definition of the new g uh drug kingpins of of the 20 21st century. So Uh, that's who the Flannery brothers were we didn't know we didn't know until literally the last 48 hours when uh frank dropped this this bomb of a report on the anniversary that um The person that jam master j got hooked up with in 1996 Who was feeding him an endless supply of of cocaine that he was brokering to people that he knew Wasn't just any ordinary black mafia family lieutenant or underling He was dealing directly with terry flannery according to Your sources Yeah, well that that was the thing a minute. It was actually that that's an updated story An updated version of a story that that came out in last november just to be accurate Well, I knew this that it was terry flannery. Oh, at least I knew That the fbi believed it was terry flannery in uh Well 2017 was it? Uh, let me just check. I'll check I'll check for you. How do I say And when you're check when you're checking, let me just add for for our listeners and viewers Something that I haven't reported yet, but I think I'm gonna roll out Uh this week. So you'll get it, you know, you you get the you get the insight first Uh, I meant to report this a couple months ago, but for whatever reason I did it and it makes sense with Frank's reporting, uh that both terry and Demetrius Flannery have been served with subpoenas Uh to appear or to potentially appear as witnesses at The trial for jam master jay's murder Get the fuck out Yeah, would you know this? Uh, I had very good black mafia family sourcing. That's that's something. Oh, man Because you know, I mean, I never said it in in that in in the in the story in the story That I believed it was terry flannery. What I said Was that I got a phone call from From this guy cassidy. He was a An investigator who was working the case and he asked me point blank Did I know if uncle was terry flannery, right? And I'm like, I didn't know I don't I didn't know that at this point. This was what 2016 or something like that No, I said no, I no idea who uncle was and he said well this source is telling us That that uncle is terry flannery. So anyway, I'm talking to one of my sources like about a year ago And I mentioned this to him, right and he says yeah, that was me And so he tells me this whole story about he was the source that the the the investigator was referring to Right that he tells how he's such a great story He tells me this story about how he's Now you don't understand. He's he talked to uncle on the phone. He was lying basically jay's right hand man in the drug operation So and he was the guy who used to go to st. Louis to pick up 10 20 30 keys of coke from a black mafia family stash out So he was well aware it was black mafia family, right? But he had no idea who uncle was now he talked to uncle at least a dozen times on the phone But he never met him in person, right? So so one one night and this was as well as this 2016, right? He's listening. He's watching this documentary bmf the rise and fall of a hip-hop drug empire I believe I am one of the people that are that that are featured in that document So he's watching this documentary And and it features this wiretap of terry flannery that was recorded by the investigators, right? And so this kindly falls off the couch. He goes. I know that voice I know that fucking voice. It's uncle. It's freaking uncle, right? So he then tells the FBI that uncle is terry flannery And that's how they found out about it, right? So, you know, I was very I mean, I was very careful not to say you know conclusively That uncle was terry flannery because I know a hundred percent, you know, I have This investigator telling me they think it's uncle. I have this source telling me He heard uncle's voice on this documentary I also had a source Close to terry terry wouldn't speak to me, of course Saying that he'd been he'd been visited in prison by investigators Who want this cooperation on the jam master j case, right? Um, so that's to me is like 80 percent. It's not a hundred percent But if they've been frigging like subpoenaed, that's a hundred percent. So I am so glad to hear that So thank you for that information. Yeah, I I know that, uh, you know, to meet for for people that Aren't aware Demetrius is still locked up. He's in a federal correctional facility in outside of portland, oregon and He's got about six years left to do terry has go I just want I just want the the listeners and the viewers to know terry Aka uncle aka southwest or possibly uncle alleged by some people to be uncle um Southwest T flannery was released two years ago during the covet. Um pandemic and his finishing out his Uh sentence on home confinement. He's working a regular nine to five job I've been up to that job to have have lunch with him and have some conversations with him He is royalty and uh, I've reported this that uh, when he came home There was a a line around the block With people from all walks of life Uh waiting to come into his mother's house lucille's house Where he where he's living and pay the respects and kiss his ring and take a selfie with him, you know fathers bringing their sons There there were people called, you know hip-hop luminary luminaries from around the country were flying in Uh to meet and or not to meet to to welcome him home l l cool jay fabulous nelly Puffy 50 cent they all came in town I heard there were some clandestine meetings possibly with uh Other power players from from his past And uh, he is just you know, he's back and he's he's got an instagram up uh puffy gave him a um or or I don't know was puffy or 50 gave him a Bentley as a welcome home president So he's not keeping my point is he's not keeping a low profile, you know all the stories they tell me they tell me about run dmc All right, jammaster j. You know, there's always a mixture of fact and fiction, right? So I mean the classic example is that interview I did with tenard Ronald washington in the uh original playboy story, which I mean it was extraordinary to me that he would even talk to me, but he was the one Who told me about that trip to washington that he and jay went to washington met uncle Uncle gave the tenkeys a coke They took it to baltimore and ya kim who was a friend of jay's ran off with the coke, right? Now all of that turned out to be 100 true Right, what wasn't true was the stuff he told me about what happened after so he's telling me this true story in order to try and get me to believe this other lie and the lie was He basically Ratted out his his his co-conspirator little d Carl jordan And Carl jordan's father big d and basically said that on the night of the murder He was coming back to the studio after buying bullets for jay's gun And saw carl jaw he heard gunshots and saw carl jordan And big d running from the studio now He is true that carl jordan shot like Shot jay shot jason was out But big d wasn't on the scene of the crime so he's basically written out big d and little d in order to deflect blame from His own role in the murder. You see what i'm saying? So he's He's spinning the tail that's half true In order to try and get me to believe the the second bit, which is he had nothing to do with the murder, right? And then he also tried to implicate uncle now. I'll save this up front now I don't think the feds believes terry had anything to do with germ master jay's Yeah, I want to make that clear as well my reporting has been very uh emphatic in that And and i've reported on top of frank's reporting over the last year a couple years In in regards to this that that my sources that there is nobody In in law enforcement federal or local Accusing terry or dimitrius or anyone in black mafia family for being complicit or involved in the conspiracy to murder Jay just the fact that a drug deal that was black mafia family Created by back black mafia family and consummated via black mafia family connections That deal that fell apart on the end of the buyers Ended up Causing another situation that ended up with with jay being murdered. It had nothing to do with the fact that Who was funding the drug deal what tinnard was trying to do and he was i mean definitely I mean i had basically identified him in the Playboy piece 18 years before he was arrested. He was definitely in the studio He was one of the gunman But what he was trying to do was imply that somehow because jay lost the coke He owed 180 thousand dollars We're talking about 10 keys of cocaine. He owed 180 thousand dollars to terry flannery And he didn't have the money and that terry was going to send somebody to kill him That's what he was trying to imply Which frank which goes against the mo Of black mafia family. Yeah, I mean why would why would they don't they don't kill they don't kill people That's not black mafia family's mo if that was the case then their 2005 bus would have included 15 years worth of homicide I mean the thing about the flannery brothers was they were smart. Why would terry flannery kill a well-known hip-hop artist over 180 thousand dollars When they were making millions every day they were making so much money. They didn't know what to do with it There's a there's a piece an interesting part in the in the in the latest story Where the guy who was my source who was working with jay He said that they would give a discount If you came with the hundreds rather than tens and twenties because they couldn't move the fucking money You know, it was like they were just having trouble moving the money. So if you came with say Because it was all done on on consignment, you know, it was like, you know, there's no money up front You know, they give you a month you came back with the money if you came back with it all in the hundreds You go up they took two thousand dollars a key off, you know So that tells you that they were having trouble. It wasn't the drugs. They were having trouble moving was the money Frank can I just back up for a second? I want to set the scene and then I'm going to throw it back to you Just to again put some context here And then I want to go to the actual murder And then the investigation and then where we stand today. I think two months away from a jury selection starting in the trial so uh jam master j is fully involved in the drug game In the mid 90s until his death in 2022 He hooks up with a black mafia family and is brokering drug deals As he is also performing with run dmc and trying to run music labels and sign acts he Gets involved in the summer of 2002 Uh with a drug deal in washington dc that's set up But is that correct? Yeah It was uh, oh end of august 2000 2002. Yeah and uh meanwhile of acquaintance or a friend of his Comes home from prison and that's Ronnie tenard Washington and just so people understand who this kind of the character that this guy is People have compared him and frank compares him in some of his articles to a wee bay from from the the wire he was A shooter a stick-up kid an enforcer And j Welcomes him home Takes him out buys him clothes buys him a car Tries to give him some work. He also is acquainted with At that time an 18 year old Uh, carl jordan who went by the nickname little d who's an aspiring rapper whose dad dig d was run dmc's road manager for manager Tonight was so close To j that j allowed him to stay at the family home And tenard began dating j's sister benita So j's killer was dating his sister. Let's show you how close they were. Yes, right And i mean back before he went to prison when they grew up together. They were kids together J's mom connor. She used to cook dinner for both of them and that's the really sad thing about this whole story is that like You know, it was like everybody, you know, the people involved in killing them were all like related to him in one way or another Right, like, you know little d was his That's the carl jordan. How is he's called son for christ sake, right? You know tenard, you know, was was he one of his best friends when he was when he was growing up in holless um So i mean that tells you i mean that's really the kind of ultimate betrayal here, you know We're talking about people Not many people he grew up with but but but not only people he grew up with But people he went out of his way to help With money with jobs with places to stay These are the people who murdered him, you know And i mean that's really That's what really sticks in my core about this story because those motherfuckers in the studio every last one of them Knew straight away Who killed jay? But they all fucking knew every one of them Randy allen who was in the studio jay's manager lydia Who was randy's sister all of them knew and except for lydia lydia was the only one who had any balls ironically um Well, they they basically told a whole bunch of bullshit to the To the detectives and to the investigators and that's why it took like 18 years I understand they were scared of tin hard scares To want to watch there's a scary person, but this was their best freaking friend or i hanging up the courage to tell the truth You know, i mean it's outrageous this thing took 18 years to solve when they knew damn well You know right from the moment jay was killed. Who did this? This was not a freaking secret You know, I knew this right and i'm like just some limey white boy You know who knows how to report a story I mean within like a week or two weeks of starting all this story I knew who killed jay those motherfuckers in the studio except for lydia Who did actually testify before grand jury they should be ashamed of themselves It isn't this part of like the no snitch like You know, that's a thing in detroit other urban neighborhoods I mean, it's similar to you think of like omerta with italian organized crime But there's that you know, you're not snitching on somebody like you're snitching on somebody who murdered your best friend and call blood No, yeah, I mean, I believe me. I'm not I'm not defending that uh, you know having that that code, but um, wouldn't it be i'm just rather than well, maybe part of it is that they were fearful but um I don't know. Isn't that sort of like you never Loyalty or was it fear were they being loyal to hard or do they fear that? They're not loyalty to not any loyalty that loyalty should have been to jay because jay was their meal ticket jay was the one who was paying all the bills jay was the one who was employing them jay was the one who was putting Putting food on their table. They're not loyalty to nothing. We're scared. It's not I understand that Um, but you know what show a bit of freaking courage. I mean lydia Who's the only woman who was there that night? She had the courage to come forward and testify before grand joy It was too hard and she did that a year after the murder Those other motherfuckers like Randy Allen the the manager they told them a whole all this stuff about schoon murder jay And it was uh, it was a beef. What was it with murdering? Can all those stupid theories about who murdered jay? That all came from those people in the studio who lied Disinformation disinformation. Yeah, they lied and lied and lied and that's why it took so long And you know what else is really interesting if you read the court documents This is the thing. I don't know and i'm trying to find out The latest court document that the the government i'm not giving many details about this case, but they refer to two Co-conspirators. That's unindicted Co-conspirators. That's not randy. Oh, sorry. That's not um Ronald Washington. That's not carl jordan is two other people right? So there was two other people involved in this conspiracy in addition to to washington and jordan Right, so who are those two people right? It's somebody close to jay because they were all close to jay. So it was it was it wasn't just Randy it wasn't just uh ronald washington and and jordan Now who else could it be right? I have a very hard time believing that um Carl jordan who was 18 at the time did not tell his father what he was going to do That seems very very unlikely to me now the other possible co-conspirator. I don't know this for sure But a lot of people believe this including Tenors lawyer ronald washington is randy allen right because i've i've proven that randy Stole money from from jay had been stealing money from him for years I had like the bookkeeper The record company bookkeeper on the record Saying that randy stole money from jay. I had hurricane And another jay's friends hurricane is the beastie boys dj And uh, eric Eric eric shake james another class friend saying that jay told them both That he knew randy was stealing from him. So it's confirmed that randy Was stealing money from jay and have been doing it for years and years of years I also have three sources two on the record one off the record Saying that that randy that's his manager his long-term manager who who he grew up with right stole Jay's chain an empty jays wallet from From his dead body Before the police arrived Which if true is so freaking outrageous It's unbelievable that your best friend just gets murdered in front of you and the first thing you think of is Well, yeah, we're gonna steal his chain and empty his wallet now. I'm not saying that is 100 true What I am saying is that Three of jay's friends say that's true. No, I don't know. I don't know that to be 100% But that's what they're saying But I do know for sure that randy was stealing from jay I had been stealing from him from a long time. So again, we see this pattern of friends betraying him You know of of the people he helped the people he employed the people he you know Took from the I mean those people would have been like penniless on the street if it wasn't for jay Those are the ones who ultimately betrayed him. Let me ask you let me ask you guys something I I know you're we're both crime reporters and not social psychologists or sociologists, but I nevertheless can't help but ask I mean again, we're talking about one of the most famous hip-hop groups of all time A guy who's very popular well known Why is he hanging around with people like this? I mean Question, you know what it is. You know what it is. It's this loyalty to the streets is what got him killed Right. I mean, why did he never leave? Hollis running DMC did right they left Hollis Jay always stayed behind because he had this loyalty to the neighborhood to his friends I mean, don't forget that all these people Were part of this teenage burglary crew. What a Washington Randy Allen Well, little he was too old but was too young, but you know They created this bond this kind of criminal bond when there was 17 and 80 And he always stood behind them Even though, you know, they went to jail. He went on to become a superstar But as soon as they got out of prison, I mean, Randy went to prison comes out Jay makes him his manager Tina goes to prison. He comes out Jay puts him up at the family home gives him walking around money Um, employs him as an enforcer. So he never He it was almost like a point of honor with him to Stand by his childhood friends to never to always look after them And that's what got him killed in the end Frank Frank. I want to um tell fill in the gap between the august drug deal or the the brokering of the of the deal in august in washington dc and the the two months till Jason myzal is murdered what turns I mean what turns to nard washington from Friend of foe. He gets cut out of the drug deal, right? Well, what basically happens is this guy So basically what they were trying to do was Yeah, kim who was also a member of this teenage burglary crew with ronald washington and randy allen Jason's right He he'd moved to baltimore become a big-time drug dealer in baltimore And he told jay, you know about the scene in baltimore that he can make some money here So the whole purpose of the trip to washington dc was basically to hook up uncle and and And you're kim, right? Now when somehow ronald washington persuaded jay to let him come along And and to be part of the deal now the problem was you came strongly objected to this because ronald washington had burglarized your kim's Apartment and stolen like a gun and bulletproof breast and some jewelry. So he's like no fucking way I'm not doing this deal with this motherfucker. You've got to cut him out. So jay cut him out, right? So ronald washington is pissed off about this So then he then recruits lildi who he'd been hanging out with and then become friends In this plot to murder jay. So it was basically because he was cut out of the deal That that ronald washington plotted to murder jay jay's experience And and why not? Why not just since he is the golden goose? I mean, why not? Obviously we're trying to i'm trying to project logic on this sociopathic people But why like why not just try to get back in with them like Try to like smooth that out You know what i mean a less extreme way than oh, well, let's just kill him because he no longer includes us in the I have long and I don't know this to be a fact and this is like a theory But i've long thought that they may not have intended to kill him That it was essentially a robbery that went wrong because they knew jay always stole carry thousands of dollars in his pocket He had this $50,000 gold chain It is possible it might have been a robbery but from the government's point of view it doesn't matter Yeah, because if you murder somebody in in in in if you kill somebody In the process of robbing them that's murder, right? So it's called felony murder. Yeah, well, that's what he's charged with he charged with felony murder That's why it's a federal case. It's not like he's not been charged In new york state for murder he's been charged felony murder Under a federal you know by the feds So it's it's possible that they didn't actually mean to kill the guy Because you know never underestimate the stupidity of criminals, right? tenard was like like but one thing tenard was drunk all the time. He drank a bottle of hennessy a day He was constantly high. You know, so this guy is not fucking like like Einstein, right? He's not some criminal mastermind He's like, uh, he's like, you know, he's a low level enforcer So there's that and don't forget tenard had Tenard had already killed somebody. Um, I mean, this has been a rumor somebody there's someone that's pretty Famous or linked to a pretty famous person. Tell tell them Yeah, well Let me get the name here. It was it was a randy stretch walker. It was two packs best friends, right? And he didn't even mean he should have a little more on this guy. Yes, right Um, he didn't even mean to kill him, right? What it was was he was after Randy's Stretch stretches brother, right? So he's like this is car chase through holist queens. He has an automatic rifle This is Ronald Washington. He leans out the window fires this automatic rifle And and the car flips over. He thinks he's killed Um stretches brother, but in fact he killed stretch two packs best friend. You know stretch was a rapper, right? So with we're not talking like, you know, a criminal mastermind here, right? So You know the fact that you know, he killed the wrong person Says to me that it's quite possible that it means to kill Jay But you know the gun went off or whatever for whatever reason, but it doesn't matter It doesn't matter because it it's a federal felony murder case So, you know, Frank, we were talking about mo's before I was talking about mo's and you know What the modus operandi of black mafia family, but and I know this is Circumstantial, but little d Carl Jordan, uh Who's gonna go on trial accused as a trigger man he wasn't a sparring rapper And he would uh one of his One of his trademarks In his rap persona was uh, I only do head shots. I don't I don't shoot at the body And And jay master jay was shot in the head. So what actually you want a freaking little more on the guy is right? You shoot one of you know one of the most famous djs in hip hop in the head And then you have a fucking rap song where you're rapping about oh, I don't shoot people in the body I only shoot them in the head. You want a more And I mean the the government i'm gonna use that if this goes to trial The other thing is is this little shit like every year on the anniversary of jay's passing Right, he was posting crap on his instagram instagram page about how he misses jay Rest in peace jay. I mean the fucking balls on this guy, you know what I mean? Um to do that and then to do a freaking rap video in front of a mural commemorating jay, you know But let me say this right well on little d This might not go to trial because if you look at the original indictment It's pretty always to me what the government's trying to do is they're trying to get little d to rap on On tenard. That's what they're trying to do I have a source who talks to the FBI all the time and they're Predicting this is not really going to try because if you look at the original indictment Most of the most of the most of the most of the indictment Has nothing to do with jam master jay's murder most of the indictment has taken up with drug deals That little d pulled off that happened long after jay's death, right? So, you know, so they've gotten basically on video doing all these drug deals I think it's about half a dozen different drug deals, right? You know, so they were obviously trying to Basically, they're basically trying to say to look we got your bank to rights on this on this On all these drug deals you would do 20 years of this If you don't want to spend the rest of your life in prison Then you better like cut a deal with us and testify against run run or washington now so far that hasn't worked I thought by now because the The only way out of this for for little d is to testify against run or washington, right? That's the only way but so far They've they've they've hung tight they happen. I mean, I've talked to the lawyers and they're like no We've got a trial on this. We've got a trial on this, but they have a ton of witnesses, you know, because it's not just like Big run of washington is bragging about the murder in prison You've got this little idiot little d bragging about the murder as well Like threatening people saying I'll kill you like I killed jam master j I mean, come on. I mean, Jesus christ. What a stupid thing to do So they've got basically the government has like two witnesses one saying that run on washington bragged about the murder In fact, they have more than one witness They have two witnesses because they have his girlfriend as well because he bragged about the murder to his girlfriend Danielle mcdonald's and and they've also got somebody who little d threatened to kill And and and he's going to say that little d bragged about killing jam master j So, you know, as I said, we're not talking geniuses here. You know, they they you know, they I mean I mean he was well known. I mean like Jay's nephew bo scags Little d shot him in the leg and the reason and this was like only a couple of months after the murder The reason for this was that bo Little d was mad because bo put out a rap basically saying that little d shot Shot jason shot jam master j. So again This was not this is not a big freaking secret. It never was a big secret The only mystery of this case really Is why it took so bloody long to indict these two, you know, I mean this we've known this for a long time It's in the playboy article that was in 2003, you know There's two big questions that remain unanswered here, which i'm determined to find out was Who are the two co-conspirators? Right Who are the other two people who were involved in plotting to murder j? And the other the other question that's always puzzled me is where do that tenkeys a coke go, right? Because I don't think that your kim actually did run off at the coke Now your kim might have had the coke j might have taken it back to to to To holless to sell but you know, it's Find out who where this coke went and I think you'll find out a lot more about the story But the big thing is the two co-conspirators Who was it? Who are the two people in addition to ronald washington? And col jordan who conspired to murder j I bet dollars to doughnuts that they're close friends of us because everybody involved in this Oh, we're close friends of us. Yeah, I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that there are two names that we've talked about on this In this interview in the last 60 70 minutes. Absolutely. You can you can you can do the math yourself That's my that's my my personal belief. Well, thank you frank so much You know jimmy and I just kind of sat back and let Frank ride the horse here. We didn't want to Interject too much because frank's such a great storyteller and and like I said, he's the guy that Has been breaking all this news for 20 years now We're almost at the end of the line, but there's still some more Revelations to be had frank's on the scene frank's going to get it done And hopefully he'll come back and share it with us Um, frank is is there anywhere people should know to be able to get a hold of you or or consume your content? Uh, yeah, franko in dot substack com So check that out. Um Please like subscribe share Uh spread the word og podcast is on youtube now We are full multimedia. We're going to be giving you a more content. Uh, it's going to be coming at you now You know audio video Hopefully we'll start doing some some live broadcast. We'll do some remotes. We're coming to your house Right, we're going to be expanding and and playing around with the format But we'll see we'll we'll keep giving you that great true crime content you want every week We'll do uh by mitzvahs and birthday party. You know, let's show up for christening Uh, so we'll see you next week. Uh for benny behind the glass for jimmy Frank our gas scott bernstein og podcast out