 let's see the mic does appear to be working so that's great all right let's go ahead and call to order our February 2nd 2023 Historic Preservation Commission meeting Thank you so we do have a quorum next item on the agenda would be the approval from the December 2022 meeting do any of the commissioners have any comments or corrections for those minutes have a motion to approve the minutes from Commissioner Barnard and a second from Commissioner Jacoby all in favor please say aye any opposed none minutes are passed unanimously next would be report from the chair so I don't have anything in particular to note other than welcome everyone to 2023 and we do have a new member Commissioner Fenster here am I right so welcome Commissioner for because we do have one new commissioner I'll do a quick little intro on how comments work and the technology we have you all remember that during the meeting if you would like to make a comment or statement I you press the tab on your microphone which then alerts me that you need to speak but give me a second because I have to activate your mic in order for you to be recorded and we do want the mic to be on so that the recording picks it up all right that's all I have do we have Commission anything from HPC staff plan a shoe marker commissioners I haven't been here for a while but good to see you all again I'm Brian Schumacher with city planning staff unfortunately Jennifer's under the weather so I'm filling in for her and our planning director Glenn Van Nimmeligen is had to attend an RTD meeting this afternoon so he wasn't able to attend the meeting either so they send their condolences and so fortunately you're stuck with me so but did want to mention a few things obviously some of you have registered for the saving places conference that is next week in Boulder I think there was the online and in-person options I don't know which of those each of the commissioners that have signed up selected but I believe my understanding aside from Jennifer that Commissioner Lane Commissioner Jacobi Commissioner Barnardt and Commissioner Sibley of all conference and I believe probably commissioner guy who is maybe also attending oh really okay okay I understand I understand Commissioner Lane that you're still looking for kind of your registration information we'll make a note of that and I'll contact Jennifer and Jane to see if we can follow up on that yes Commissioner Fenster yeah I'll check and see I blew I'll check about the registration if you're interested is next week I believe it's February 8th through the 10th I think there's an like I said it's in person there's also an online option I don't know all the details since I'm not attending but we can check on that and set forward that information to you I don't know if registration has closed I believe it probably hasn't but we can certainly check on that thank you you bet sorry I'm just taking a note here the other thing I wanted to mention was I did receive yesterday from Lindsay at History Colorado she's the CLG representative coordinator some information about funding opportunities if you haven't received that will forward that on to the Commission regarding different grant opportunities but then there's also information about additional training besides the saving places conference I believe in February it sounds like there's going to be two tax credit training sessions for CLG's if anybody's interested they haven't specified a date yet but when we get that information we can forward that on to the Commission if any of the commissioners are interested in that looks like there will also be restarting the CLG regional forums this year again no dates or locations yet but when we get that information forward that on if the commissioners are interested in attending any of those sessions and aside from that as you're probably all aware may has typically been historic preservation month and we can talk maybe a little bit about that under the retreat topic I think that's all I have to ramble on about for now so thank you great thank you any questions for Planner Schumacher from the Commission I have one our and I'm gonna put you on the spot unfortunately I would put Jennifer on the spot if she were here so the first order we were excited to learn last year that she was going to have some more time to dedicate to planning or to historic preservation because you found some planners and her first order of business was a grant application for surveys and do you have any idea if that there's been any progress on that don't but I can certainly check with her when she's back in the office okay you can let her know we're gonna put her next yeah I will make a note of that thank you that's it all right thanks okay then we'll move on to our next section is public invited to be heard so this would be anyone in the audience who would like to speak to something that is not on the agenda if you are here for an agenda item we'll have you come up so is there anyone in the audience that's here to speak about something not on our agenda thank you I'll go ahead and close the public invited to be heard all right now we are on to annual business so the first meeting of every calendar year we need to go through and elect officers chair and vice chair approve our meeting dates and times location agenda posting location and approval bylaws so we'll take these one at a time the first order of business is the election of the chairperson if there's anyone sitting here that would really love to jump up here and and and take this position over you are certainly welcome to if there isn't anyone who really loves to do this I will consent to serve again but I'm not going to get in the way of anyone who wants to do this red is go stop my life is not hard enough already so I will nominate Steve to be chair again okay we have a nomination to elect Commissioner Lane as the chair nominated by Commissioner Gaiu and seconded by Commissioner Fenster all in favor opposed all right and then vice chair do we have any nominations for vice chair Commissioner Gaiu has served this role for the last couple of years but I'm sure she'd be also happy to pass the torch for anyone who doesn't know the vice chair is really essentially the person who takes over this role if I'm not here or if I need to recuse myself from some portion of the hearing now accepting nomination I nominate Commissioner Gaiu to serve as vice chair of the Historic Preservation Commission second okay we have a nomination from Commissioner Barnard and seconded by Commissioner Fenster to for Commissioner Gaiu to serve as vice chair all in favor any opposed none all right approval of meeting dates and times our hearings are the first Thursday of every month at five o'clock did anyone if anybody's had a chance to kind of run through the schedule we sometimes have conflicts around the 4th of July and Labor Day I did not see any the 4th of July week is the 6th so it's after the holiday I think that would be post holiday weekend so I don't know that we have a conflict with any of the typical dates does that include summer it does include some when we run every first Thursday of every every month the only reason we would not have a meeting would be if there were nothing on the agenda occasionally the meetings do get canceled for the month I noticed that we planned through December 7th and I'd also noticed obviously that we weren't able to meet in January because it was very close to the January I guess because it was close to the January holidays January 1st New Year's and stuff like that should we maybe take a look at January and just see if we're going to be able to do that if we want to move it to maybe the second Thursday so we don't miss a meeting yeah I think honestly we missed it just because we didn't have an agenda item to discuss and we weren't prepared I'm not sure staff was ready to dive into some of the retreat deals we have normally met on the first Thursday in January okay and and I think that's something we could handle as we get closer during the year as well since it's really technically the next calendar year well I would move then that we approve the dates and times as suggested okay I've got a motion from Commissioner Jacobi and I did hear Commissioner Fenster's second first so that we'll have all of our meetings will be on the first Thursday of each month at five o'clock all in favor please say aye any opposed none that motion passes I'm gonna lump the next two in I probably could have done the first these three together meeting location and meeting agenda posting location recording Secretary Yost could remind us where these where the posting locations are so they're they're physically posted at Town Hall and of course they're on online yeah so the official location is on the web page okay supplemental physical locations right okay so the meeting look our meeting location would actually be here all through the year and those posting locations would be as noted on the web and physically on the building did any commissioners have any comments around those take a motion all right so we have a motion to approve the meeting location here and the meeting agenda look posting locations as currently existing the motion is from Commissioner Sibley and seconded by Commissioner Fenster all in favor please say aye any opposed and last item of our annual business is the approval of bylaws which were included in the packet it's fairly straightforward stuff just talks mostly about things we just did one have any comments or questions around the bylaws motion to approve on the sections 7 rules of procedure says all up mainly shall be conducted going to Robert's rules of order there might be something in the bylaws that calls for a different way of handling something usually when I've seen a provision like this it says all meeting shall be conducted according to Robert rules Robert's rules of order except as otherwise provided in these bylaws or in the city city or in the municipal code something to that effect I'm whatever we do here has to go back to the staff to work on and we can't vote on it until next week I know that's may just be a technical thing but it's the kind of thing that if it does come up during the year it's much more difficult that we haven't resolved it now so if there were a I guess I'm not a hundred percent sure I'm following you but if if that paragraph said according to Robert's rules of order except as otherwise noted in the bylaws where else in the bylaws would it describe what an exception to that we need to add an exception to that and you know it's just if there could be something the way we amend the bylaws for instance might be different from Robert's rules of order or it might not provide for amendments in the same way we do and there also might be something in the municipal code which says that we have to do a certain thing a certain way that doesn't usually come up but if it does come up I'd want to you know we would we would naturally do it that way but this way the what we would actually do in practice would conform to what our bylaws I think if you wanted to and actually we're probably not following Robert's rules of order right now because we have a motion on the table and we didn't have a second and we're not discussing the motion and we didn't have the motion fail and all that other fun stuff just so just so everybody knows that I'm actually aware of that nevertheless we tend to be slightly less formal here if your suggestion is to just simply amend that one particular sentence to accept as otherwise provided for in the bylaws I think that could happen here now so so okay so we're gonna we're gonna withdraw I'm gonna executively withdraw commissioner guys motion and then we'll essentially have a motion to approve the bylaws with the change to section seven all meetings shall be conducted according to Robert's rules of order and amended except as otherwise provided in the bylaws is that correct these by these bylaws have a motion to have a second second motioned by commissioner Fenster and seconded by commissioner Barnard all those in favor please say aye any opposed none all right that motion carries thank you luckily we don't have to do that for another year alright now we'll move on to the actual meet of this evening we have a public hearing for 902 Fifth Avenue the Earl Sprague house a certificate of appropriateness for replacement of second-story windows we have a staff report don't have a lot of background on this I look through the staff report today actually went out yesterday afternoon and took a few more pictures to add it to this so just bear with me obviously so we have a request for a certificate of appropriateness for the historic landmark the Earl Sprague house at 902 Fifth Avenue looks like it was designated as a historic landmark in 1987 and for just as a reminder for the commission anytime there is a exterior modification to a historic landmark property it does require approval by the commission of a of a certificate of appropriateness and so you have before you a request for an exterior modification for window replacement on this historic landmark and it involves the upper-story windows as replacement does not include any of the ground floor windows so that said it's at the northwest corner of Pratt and Fifth Avenue it's just to the north of Thompson Park and the next few slides and I don't think there was any kind of pictures of the of the house exterior in your packet but I went out and took a few additional pictures late yesterday afternoon so I knew I was gonna be here spending time with the commission so just wanted to provide just some context of the of the property this is from Fifth Avenue looking at the house basically in the middle of the street looking at the north side of the north side elevation and you kind of see that upper level window and that dormer area up there and then this would be kind of a view from the corner on the left side and then this would be a view of the east side of the house from Pratt Street on the right side and I can certainly toggle back and forth if you want to and then on this slide this picture is also from Pratt Street it's just kind of towards the back of the house on the left hand image and then the right hand image again is from Fifth Avenue but it's kind of the left side or west side of the house it's kind of the best angle I could get trying to show that side of the house as well so as noted this is a slide that Jennifer prepared as I mentioned the proposal is to replace the second-story windows with I believe it's a wood composite window that's manufactured by a renewal by Anderson on the same basically style window style and I think it's noted that the applicant indicated and it was indicated in the pack at that Jennifer prepared that it's not clear if the on the age of the windows that are being replaced and whether or not they are original to the house although based on some of the images that are in the picture they do look fairly old and I'm not sure and I like I said I haven't had a conversation with the owner or though a representative from renewal by Anderson to see if they've had any they've considered window repair as an option as opposed to replacement so I would certainly ask the applicant maybe if they could come down after I'm done talking to maybe give some additional background on the options that they explored with respect to looking at window repair replacement on this home and and these are I think these were included in your packet as well it just included kind of images of the existing windows from both the interior and the exterior as well as on could see that computers but it doesn't seem to be working this they can I both try it and it turns the computer off under it new kids the magic button did you want me to go back at all no I've been kind of craning my okay I don't want to explain to my wife again my understanding on these this slide is that this shows images of the existing windows both on the interior which is the left image left images the middle images are the exterior existing windows and it looks like there are existing storm windows on the on the upper windows as well and then the baby removed permanently storm windows so we probably need to get some clarification I would assume that's the case that's my understanding typically with window replacement we get clarification from either the owner or the I believe there's a representative from renewal by Anderson here as well and then the the other images on the right hand side I believe are the replacement proposed replacement windows and again this is just running through the next few slides do you know whether there are any federal criteria for such replacements yeah commissioner if you don't mind we'd like to let him have finished his presentation and then we'll open it up to comments from commissioners and you can you can hammer away at that point but again this is just another room and I can't quite read that exactly which which room that is but obviously it's just basically same perspective views interior exterior existing windows and then the proposed replacement windows and I believe these were each in your packet as well as sorry as well as some additional manufacturer information of that was provided by the applicant and from the renewal by Anderson as well and so again I think it would be helpful just to have the applicant provide a little bit more background on what they've considered in terms of and why you know kind of the rationale for making this request so that concludes my remarks for now but I'm happy to respond any questions as best I can okay great thanks sure all right let's open it up to questions from commissioners all right you will we'll get it all figured out here yeah so commissioner fencer you had a question are there any federal criteria for this kind of replacement so typically and commissioner guy you feel free to interject as well my understanding and I'm going off memory is based on the secretary of interior standards for rehabilitation on historic properties that in terms of the guidelines regarding those standards is that the preference is to repair in place if at all possible and then if not if for whatever reason repair in place is not possible then the alternative is to replace with like materials and like design and commissioner guy you have had you have anything else to add feel free I think everybody heard so yes you would repair what you can obviously and to be honest these windows look like they're in pretty good shape so I would not see a reason to replace them but if you had to replace them you would replace them in kind and that there's a scale there of replacing exactly in kind same materials same workmanship etc etc to replacing something that does not detract from the building but could be of new materials if historic materials are not available anymore yeah so there's there's a scale to it and you know every every example if the replacement is going to enable the permanent removal of storm windows that enhances the historic preservation quality all right any other questions for staff and if not we'll have an applicant come down and thank you planer Schumacher and if we had if we can have members from the applicant if you'd like to come down and if you have any remarks prepared you're welcome to fire those away and if not we can we can just ask questions welcome thank you my name is Laura burger and I'm sure questions yeah so I guess my my question is why are you replacing these windows they look to be in pretty good shape extremely drafty very cold in the winter one window we have our desk right by and it is freezing beside that window and in the summer of course it's really hot up there as well and you can feel that heat and that cold coming through those windows another one we have looked at repairing them we looked at that in 2020 a person came out a contractor came out said that they would give me an estimate they never got back to me after multiple calls there were no returns from those calls I contacted other historic window companies and nobody got back to me because it was such a small job just seven windows and so they weren't interested in that really nervous about public speaking that's okay it's just it's just us nobody's watching I mean have you considered putting storm interior and or exterior storm windows on these to help with the draft because I have to say you know these look to be perhaps not original to the house but pretty early you know anytime you have pin pin windows that's gonna be probably at least like 1920s 1930s yeah so you're talking about you know windows that have been on the house for at least 70 to 80 years and so those are made with wood of equality that you will never see again and so to put that wood into the landfill and replace it with a composite wood that is not there's just no way that it's very unfortunate and to be the last resort I would say and there are definitely things you can do to help with that the single pane we have not looked at storm windows on the inside or outside of those but obviously we want to be able to open them when the weather is nice and stuff so I don't know how that would play with a storm windows that have oh well we have like screens we do have screens on those windows but I'm not sure what you're suggesting well there's storm windows that have a screen like in half of it so let's see next up I have Commissioner Jacobi I have a few questions um you know are any of the window panes poured glass can you tell do they have that watery kind of appearance not like the ones downstairs do the ones on the first floor definitely are but not that not that I can tell from upstairs okay do any of the windows not open fully at this point there is one window that does not open fully and a couple windows open about this much and then others that open this much right like those dormers right beside each other one open this much the other one I live with ancient windows I understand that the problems here and I think it's something about jump construction installing from the exterior is that correct yes so that's going to go inside the existing window frame how much is that going to reduce the size of the windows do we have numbers on that yeah you can expect anywhere from about a half an inch to an inch size on each side yeah so an inch to two inches total on each dimension that's correct you're basically removing the operable portions of the window only while maintaining the old frames that are still there because we still do want to basically maintain that historical aspect to the frame and the brick mold and everything but really we're just talking about the class and those yeah I was I was trying to read about some of this online and and something said it doesn't affect the frame at all but other sites that I looked at said it you you widened the frame on the exterior when you put in a jump style frame and it would be a different material would you still be using the same wood frame could you tell me more about what it's going to do the frame on the exterior yeah there there was some more documentation that was provided to the planning committee that actually showed what portions of the window is being removed versus which isn't I'm happy to walk over there and just point out with my finger I saw those little yellow lines yeah but but yeah again looking at different websites some said that it does affect the frame on the exterior and some said it didn't and you're so I wasn't really clear on that and I'm clarification I think I'd want clarification from you on what you're describing as the frame before I answer that question because some people use different nomenclature depending on well anything that you would see outside of the sash mm-hmm from the exterior yeah would you be affecting that outside of the sash yes no okay no that that old frame all those non movable parts stay exactly as they are now can I make another comment about the drafts and stuff like that too is that okay sure so one portion about this is yes it's a single pane window that's always gonna allow for that heat transfer and the drafts that they're feeling is because that old wood even though they don't make wood like that anymore you're a hundred percent correct like that it doesn't seal up against those non movable portions of that old window anymore so putting things like say a storm window interior or exterior that helps to a point but that weather is still finding its way through portions of that window that have nothing to do with the little aspects of the window itself so we're also sealing up those areas too when we're making this replacement so storm windows could help for sure but I don't think it would ever get to the point where it would be comfortable in that upper portion of their house that just isn't doing much to do other than keeping the squirrels and the raccoons out at this point in time so I think that's another thing that has to be considered too when you are doing these window replacements. If you could clarify from me also a little bit more about Fiber-X are there other options does Anderson have any options with true wood rather than Fiber-X number one and if not or even with that being said what could you describe the appearance of Fiber-X is it look is it smooth plastic appearing with wood impregnation does it have natural wood grain real wood grain or simulated wood grain what does it look like? Sure it is a smooth gauge on the frame of the window itself it is basically wood pieces that are used from the wood windows at our manufacturing plant that then get put together under high heat and pressure and extruded with a thermal polymer okay so it is composite thrown through like a trex decking or something like that but the appearance of it is very smooth from look and feel it does not try to simulate wood. Are there wood options through Anderson at all? Through Anderson yes or if you wanted to go to like Home Depot or something like that and buy an Anderson window you can absolutely do. So you could have wood windows on that perspective. But from my company's perspective granted Anderson as our parent company we only deal with that Fiber-X material. Thank you. All right Commissioner Fenster. I have no questions. So the windows are they are single pane do you does Anderson make any kind of a storm product a historic storm window? Old windows I assume the new the new ones I think you had in here are gone double pane but to clarify how this gets installed essentially you would take out the sashes of the old windows and any stops and then you would that window frame and sash unit would slide into the basically squared up opening that's left. If you could just be speaking in the mic yeah and again it's recorded so we won't we'll miss the recording. Do you want me to make those comments again? Yeah if you want if you don't mind that'd be great. Sure so with that jump frame install pulley systems ropes if possible of course the whole concept of the jump frame install is to preserve that old frame as much as possible so we're not taking anything out that can't be easily removed. Okay thank you. Any other Commissioner questions or thank you. I will go ahead and open up the public hearing portion of this so if there's anybody else in the audience that would like to speak to this. Okay thank you appreciate that and we'll we'll call you up if we have any other questions that we'd like appreciate you. Alright so we'll go ahead and close the public hearing portion of this item and open it up for discussion amongst the Commissioners. I have mixed feelings about this I understand the national standards and we were about preservation and that means not replacing by definition. I have windows built in 1885 and they are drafty I must say but I still have them. I think I looking at the national standards when I when I've looked at that before and they show examples of window replacements they show egregious examples of windows totally out of proportion or partially bricked in and made into these horrible things it doesn't sound like this is going to be that kind of a situation and I think we are coming to a point we're in the 21st century where we really have to think very seriously and hard about efficiency and green standards and reducing energy consumption and these are conflicting goals with preservation sometimes. So I'm I'm not sure where to go with this personally. I can tell you I made my own interior storm windows and I am a surprise and I have upstairs I have commercially made interior storm windows that work exceedingly well and I made my own interior storm windows downstairs at quite a reasonable cost and they work fairly well also. I'm amazed at how much they remove drafts so I think that is an option that we should consider the Commission. I'm still torn though this where to go on this because I understand my heating bill was probably like your heating bill which is getting astronomical and we do have other considerations I think to consider. Anyway just my thoughts out loud. Thank you Commissioner Fenster. Yes there has been no information provided as to whether or not the windows that will be replaced the windows and the window materials and the frame sizes and shapes that will be replaced would be replaced are the originals. We don't know whether the replacements are replacing originals or are replacing some intermediate period windows that were installed. So that's one factor that I'm thinking about. The second factor is simplicity in terms of maintaining the visual images of the original structure and the third factor that I'm thinking about is what you just mentioned and that is the need to balance the preservation interests with other factors including energy efficiency. So that set of factors has been in my consideration and based on what I know about historic preservation we are coming to a time where worn out materials need to be replaced where intermediate prior replacements need to make an attempt to go back to originals at least in terms of visual imagery if not in terms of original materials and we are so far along now in terms of new available materials that we can accomplish a great deal by using new materials to replace the visual imagery of the original structure. Thank you Commissioner Guy. I will just say professionally in preservation for over 25 years and there's plenty of research out there that says that an original single pane window with a storm window is as efficient if not more efficient than a double pane window. So let's keep that in mind that a double pane window is not going to solve all your problems either and also as I said from looking at the style of this window and I'm assuming Brian that you know that it's a wooden window you know it's been working functioning in this house for probably over 80 years and if it was repaired and maintained well it would last for another 100 plus years whereas I can guarantee you that the replacement windows will not. They're just they're gonna be if you're lucky you'll you know get to have the payback on the window before you have to replace it. You know double-plated windows unfortunately don't work very well in Colorado the seals dry up they break and so then you're losing a lot of that you know energy efficiency from the double pane windows pretty soon into it. So for me personally I can't see removing if these were in disrepair you know if they were missing part of their frames if they had broken windows that sort of thing I could see potentially replacing them but they look to be in good shape they could be repaired they could have a storm window either interior or exterior added to them to gain that efficiency and typically windows are not where most of your energy is lost it's through the roof so you're much more much more efficient to you know and in reinforce your roof than to mess with windows so that's my thank you Commissioner more thoughts yeah we are here to approve or disapprove improvements on homes and almost all all improvements that are made on the exterior do change appearance we are here to make improvements to balance livability of the homes with preservation and there are homes that have additions on them that compromise the appearance somewhat but make the home much more livable and again I live in a historic home and I understand the need to the importance of making it livable that being said if there are wood windows available versus this fiber X which it sounds like yet another plastic compound yes it's got wood ingrained in it but there's nothing uglier to me than sun baked plastic fake wood which you see all the time in Colorado we have incredible UV light here and and plastic just gets baked and it looks ugly so if wood is an option and that's where we go I would say we should go with the wood option instead of fiber X but all this being said again interior storm windows do work very well I can vouch for that I don't haven't seen the data that the gate of mentions but I certainly find that they work pretty well and I wonder does anybody know the other problem with the functionality of the windows is opening the windows I must admit half my windows are painted shut and I leave them that way so that they're less drafty does anybody notice is there people who rebuild traditional sash windows in long month is that an option here because if that's not an option we should consider more heavily replacement that actually leads to a question I was gonna ask staff do we keep a list still of area contractors that are involved in historic preservation it feels like we had that at some point but I don't I might be making it up to I'll check on that I know at one point in time we had a resource list and I know I believe maybe history Colorado has a list of contractor resources as well you know the last application that I recall that involved window repair that went through a COA when I was staff liaison was I think it was 1243 3rd Avenue where they went through a company I believe called Phoenix window restoration I'm not sure I don't think they're in long not necessarily but they are in the front range so but yeah I I don't know unfortunately the applicant did not have good luck in terms of their previous attempts at trying to get some information and estimates regarding you know repair of the existing windows which is unfortunate but we can certainly check and see if there's other resources available yeah and the reason I one of the reasons I asked that if I understood from the applicant correctly there was a particular outfit that they worked they were trying to work with for repair but and didn't get a response but it wasn't a multiple number of you know so if there's and I understand that we this is it's difficult to find these resources right these are these are fairly specialized trades right and so if there's a way to just as a general rule that we can have resources available to people to make it a little easier to guide folks down the you know sort of path I think that'd be valuable and I know the list at the state is there but it's also sort of huge so get any other commissioner comments I have a question tearing of objectives to be accomplished in a situation like this that would include preservation of original materials preservation of visual original materials preservation of contours etc etc and somewhere in that consideration would be a determination qualitative or maybe quantitative determination of livability I don't know whether this commission has a sequel determination factors or whether it's subjective I don't know that it's I mean there's some level of subjectivity to it right but you know again we go back to the secretary of interior standards there it's reasonably clear if existing material can be preserved it should be there are it's complicated right because there are times when somebody might make changes that would involve removal of some material and to commissioner guy's point you know if the functionality or the condition is such that completely prevents its use that's a that's a significant factor and in particular you know other factors might come into play in terms of whether they want tax you know are looking for tax credits you know if they're looking for money or different certifications so that it there's no real clean clear answer but I think as a general rule if it's there and it and it's in reasonably decent condition the interior standards would would say that it ought to be kept and if it's replaced it's replaced with like materials so I think that's one of the other issues here is that it's replaced you know and then the other pieces are the scale and the look and so on and you you could really get into shaving hairs about the extra inch around you know which does have an effect and you know maybe it's less on the second floor if it was the first floor be a really maybe more of a problem because it doesn't start to change the appearance at some level it's a call by the way I assume these dormers are not original because they were to my recollection not common in that period of time I would imagine they were they were so and unfortunately just as a comment you know probably one of the most controversial and hot button topics in preservation is windows really probably at the top of the list of things that cause massive hand-wringing in the historic preservation community so just the action requested is to make a decision I'm I guess my question would be hearing what everybody's saying I'm could this be sort of tabled maybe try to help her out with me getting some names and you know trying to get some other ideas so that you know maybe either try fixing or going more with the wood and give it a little time and a little more research and then hopefully get a decision before the next cold snap so she's not freezing or sweating for you know the rest of the year because yeah I'm sort of I'm hearing all of this and I'm thinking yeah if it was my house I'd want to make sure that this was fixed on the other hand I don't know how capable she is to do these things herself and yeah other than to try to do some more research and try to see if there are some resources from a just a procedural standpoint if the certificate of an appropriateness as a as proposed was not approved would there need to be you know there's another application that needs to happen if the homeowner decided to come back with an alternate plan based on recommendations from the Commission is there any penalty or reapplication fee associated with that or or not no we don't charge an application fee for certificates of appropriateness we're trying to encourage historic preservation in the community so we don't charge fees for our reviews and so and there's no time lag or time wait period in terms of reapplying with additional information and so there's I think in the staff communication there's there's multiple options in terms of actions that the Commission could consider and so obviously you can prove with as proposed you can approve with conditions proving in part denying impart you can defer action on the application based on the need for additional information or you can deny the application those are kind of the four options that were outlined in the staff report do it again sorry I have to scroll down every time all right well this is obviously a difficult decision but one thing that is clear to me is there is a would option and if there's a would option I would not approve fiber x personally it may be more functional but it's not appropriate for this house and there are other options that haven't been looked at such as full interior storm windows so I would move that we deny the certificate of appropriateness for now with the understanding that we encourage you to come back if there are difficulties finding suitable alternatives but I would look into getting interior storm windows and if that doesn't work perhaps we can find some more information for who can rebuild windows historically and if that doesn't work I would consider the wooden replacements but I don't think I would consider the fiber x replacements so I would move that we deny the certificate of appropriateness at this time within with request to encourage you to come back if you have further problems because I understand with ability is important in your own home okay we do have a motion on the floor question okay so we do have a motion to deny the application from Commissioner Jacobi and seconded by Commissioner Sibley now we can take a discussion on that motion any further comments I don't know that you know for again if we're following Robert's rules of order specifically we're not opening this back up to the public at this point so I think I think that period of comment is probably passed so I guess my only comment is you know I understand I think there's there are a couple things going on I think that the Commission would like to see a broader effort to consider storm with again we're not here to try to put people through the ringer but but it is an important item and so to the degree that the Commission and basically the staff this work preservation staff can help and assist people to get a little better direction we'd like to see that happen and then you know with with a with an effort on that end and then potentially an alternate proposal we certainly welcome so with no if there's no further discussion on that motion I don't know whether it's a discussion on the motion but it's a question for your new excuse me for a newcomer and that is in terms of historic preservation in addition to our concerns about the configuration of the structure and its exterior how much interest do we have in the configuration interior in other words does our preservation mandate include both the shapes and sizes of the interior and the visual imagery of the interior and I raise that question specifically because interior storm windows are not wonderfully original in terms of the visual imagery of the interior any more than they would be wonderful for the exterior so I have a question as to whether interior storm windows are ever in our institutional view as good as a good set of replacement windows early wood that you're never gonna see again and absolutely I mean this house has the benefit of having exterior storms you can see the hooks above every window so there's you know they could potentially just replace the exterior forms obviously that that can be challenging not too many people want to get up and you know take a storm window off and put a screen on twice a year get the ladder out all that sort of stuff so I think that that is sort of my bow to that livability quotient which is you have the interior storms they're a lot easier to either take on or take off have ones that are functional alongside the window so and our main purpose here this group yes is the exterior that's our principal function we don't get into the interior too much unless we're asked to review a tax credit project that wants money for the interior so yeah typically we're these sorts of things thank you commissioner gaye any further comments or discussion on the motion on the floor hearing none I'll call for a vote all those in favor of the denial of the certificate of appropriateness they say I posed okay so we have commissioners in favor Barnard Jacoby Lane Guy Sibley and Fenster opposed so sorry that that didn't go the way you were hoping for but we hope that you understand our position and and our encouragement to find some other solutions and we'd welcome you back here at another time to talk a little further about maybe some slightly more appropriate solutions and rely on staff and for a little bit of assistance thanks for coming in okay next item on our agenda is new business and it doesn't appear that we have any prior business are 2023 planning retreat dates certainly like to get some things on the calendar so do we have any options here that steps look that so I know you guys talked a little bit about this at your December meeting there's a fairly extensive discussion on different topics of interest regarding code amendments and other projects the commission is interested in pursuing and reaching some completion on and so I know we did some checking on potential dates in March and we have a hold and I know we were looking at Thursdays and I don't recall in 21 when you when you had the retreat I believe that was on a weeknight as well do you guys recall that was during the weekday Saturday well anyway sounds like and I'm sorry I haven't been working on this but it sounds like based on some of the checking staff had looked at a couple of Thursdays and I don't know if you prefer a weeknight or a weekend I don't we kind of checking with the commission right now you have a preference and we can skip the mic on this one if we just do it real quick I mean we have a hold right now for using the council study session room on March 16th of the 23rd which are Thursdays which would be basically an evening late afternoon or evening I understand okay do you have any quick opinions okay I mean I know when I had a few retreats with the commission we I think we had them out at Sandstone Ranch and we did we did Saturdays I believe at that time so we can certainly check on availability for a venue if the preference is on a Saturday probably not a Sunday right yeah I can make multiple things work but that would probably be a preference for me those two dates that you put out there I any other comments about just Saturdays or so it sounds I'm getting a general sense that Saturday is preferred to I think you've got at least two comments to that effect and and some are a few other whatever works best yeah for the commission this is this is yeah this is going to be tough can you what about those what are those for this little online calendar apps where everybody jumps in and uh yeah whatever I don't know what they are you know what I'm talking about where you have there's a handful of dates and everybody right everybody walks out the time that they can't do it or what have you could we we have the technology to set I'm sure we can figure it out either that or I'll get my son to do it there you go however that might be worthwhile just to kind of ping some people's availability maybe include some weekdays in there just in case everybody you know because if we end up with half of the folks can't make a Saturday you know we'll have to work so yeah obviously the two dates that we had hold on don't work anyway the 16th and the 23rd yeah and just FYI that's so the night the week of the 19th is St. Brain Valley spring break true which I guess yeah I might be the only one still with kids in the school district but no that's good point but I'm gated gated might too but of March yeah so yeah great yeah if we can if we can do a pull a poll for dates and you know maybe a maybe a friday or a friday afternoons no no no okay yeah I'm okay with the weekend too but just okay well like I said I'll chat with Jennifer and Glenn and see what options there are and we'll we'll send out a poll and get everybody's kind of takes and availability and our non-availability perhaps right we kind of work around there right okay well you already have constraints so related to that obviously you know whenever we settle on a date I think we'd also want to create an agenda with a list of topics and I know like I said I read through the minutes from the December meeting obviously there was quite a bit of discussion regarding a variety of different topics you know obviously code amendments is an ongoing discussion with demolition property maintenance penalties and enforcement and other other things as priorities and then there's also kind of the whole discussion regarding you know the pros and cons regarding neighborhood design guidelines versus the conservation overlay versus historic district so we could kind of have some discussion about that as well I know we've been talking about working on a grant application for a community preservation plan a community survey plan perhaps other community outreach efforts and if there's other commission interests and then also I think a part of a retreat you'd also want to establish priorities for those those items that the commission is interested in working on and we can you know as when we send out the poll perhaps we can send out a list of topics and have a maybe a poll on topics of interest that the commission would like to discuss at the retreat unless you guys have already talked about that we well Glenn did have us run through during the December meeting he did have us run through some some ideas but it would not be a bad thing especially since we have you know one new commissioner wasn't at that meeting to to throw the that back out and maybe during that poll just pulling the I think it's might even be and I don't know if it was in December's meeting minutes but in you know from one of the past meetings just that list of of priorities that Glenn had proposed and we discussed sure to say you know there any that come off or need to be added to yeah and we had some of this discussion I remember when after jade left and early last year we kind of revisited some of the topics and discussions that happened during the the 21 retreat and we talked about kind of at that time at least what the commission's interests were and their priorities and we maybe can kind of revisit that that as well in addition to what's been more recently discussed with the commission and staff if that sounds reasonable yeah I'm sorry I'm do it again one more time and I'll get you on there hit these things and okay so Brian and German I think the it was pretty clear at our last meeting that we we felt that the question of demolition because of the conversations that we had with the mayor and council at our joint meeting that that the concept of demolition encompassed a large number of things and I'm just kind of repeating what I said it's in the minutes already sure and that if we only did that that would be a fantastic thing to get some kind of meat on how we want to deal with those issues during the year I think the other thing that that I concluded I think we all concluded was the staff maybe said that until we get feedback from the city attorney on how they want to revise their presentations to us on changing the municipal code then what they really didn't make much sense for us to discuss them anymore so we had a pretty good discussion right the mayor's office the city attorney said well we kind of have to go back and rethink this based on what we heard so we're I don't think that really is a good retreat subject unless the city attorney is prepared to come up with some information for us otherwise we're just going to be talking about the same stuff we talked about before with no there's no there there right well and so how much of an ask is it I mean we're going to have staff there on some level how much of an ask is it to get at least a representative of the city's attorney's office there during this retreat I talked to you know Glenn's been more having conversations with them about you know obviously the code amendment so I can ask him and see what the thoughts are on that I think that could I mean it could potentially be very valuable and and add some efficiency to the process if it and some guidance to you know getting to that conversation it's worth the ask sure that's pretty much all I have on the retreat topic until we grind the other thing that staff said they would be getting for us and I think it really is would be helpful if they had that for the retreat it's comparable between other cities in Colorado other cities in the region other cities in Colorado how they're dealing with an issue yeah you know I said they had all that stuff well you know I put that together a while ago I think I threw you under the bus there because you weren't here and said yeah Brian has all that actually I do and I have that I probably needs to be and I think I've given that to Glenn and Jennifer it was some of the kind of the research that I did of all the various some of the other front-range communities about their demolition process you know if they have a demolition by neglect penalties and enforcement things along those lines I noted there's a few probably a few communities that have recently more recently since I put that information together updated their preservation codes I think Lafayette was one example um but um yeah I wouldn't take too much to to kind of resurrect that and update that information I think that'd be valuable sure I mean I think probably Gita and I are the only two people that were at the session yeah so anyway it's all it's mostly going to be new anyways so sure yeah no it'd be good to kind of revisit that and like I said update that based on um you know new information that's available based on potential changes that other communities have made so all right well here's what I'm gonna do I'm gonna turn some um yeah you did mention this Brian but I would like personally I'd like to see a discussion of conservation overlays at the retreat um since our last meeting I've spoken to Glen several times it sounds like the city that we were not going to pursue it uh and that the historic east side neighborhood could pursue it and certainly there's some uh energy in that that community about getting this done they've been asking for it for years um the way the conservation overlay is written right now in the city code um it's very vague number one and I've had some discussions with Glen about what to do about that it's really his judgment about what we need to do and what we don't and so it's very vague code and it's relatively unusable apparently historic east side tried to get a conservation overlay they applied to the city um several years ago I'm not sure how many years ago I wasn't involved but it would cost there's a significant financial commitment and neighborhood groups don't have that um it's treated as rezoning which means you have to notify everybody in your neighborhood every household outside of your neighborhood within a thousand yards and you know what the mailings for that alone cost there's no way most neighborhoods are going to be able to do that so I think we should maybe revisit the conservation overlay code and discuss how we can make it workable so that neighborhoods that are interested that would benefit could actually use it any other comments or questions for now I'm so going back to this woman in her windows because I I it's painful I'm there there's so fun yeah there you go I didn't mean to but yeah um I love it um it's gonna be a fun year no um so I know I'm a commissioner uh a guy who said that she may have you know some recommendations for whatever and I you know I don't know you know all how those lists work and all of that um I know that there's a lot of folks that are going to be at the conference next week um and I don't know if is it appropriate so like gather names and numbers to kind of put on some lists or or anything like that I I don't want to speak at a turn and like you know start making more work for people but on the flip side you know if we have those kinds of resources for somebody in her position you know she struck me is not really knowing a whole lot about the process and so she's got this lovely house that she may not necessarily know how to take care of um and you know I don't know what kind of guidance is there for somebody like that so yeah what I might be interested in doing I'll talk to Jennifer about this but I mentioned one example when I was a staff liaison about a property on Third Avenue that they did a beautiful job with some window repair uh through a through a company that's I was doing some checking that looks like it's still in existence um and um and I I believe that couple would be happy to chat with Laura sorry I turned that off accidentally um you know and see what experience they had um kind of if they have any recommendations and just kind of I think that that might be helpful just to kind of put her a little bit more at ease about the whole process um there is at the saving places conference I went to the schedule there's a session on energy codes and historic buildings on the ninth at three fifteen I saw that and I circled that one as one that I want to go to but I just heads up for others who are going because that might be very helpful right right yeah and and there will be some form of a vendor you know room and typically that's a place where you might see now the bike there'll be a lot of guys like the window wrap window reps like to sell windows as it turns out um but but there may be some folks who have a you know maybe specialize in in the storm window products or I mean they do exist right it's they're out there I mean I can certainly understand um the property owners at tonight's application because I get tons of flyers from renewal by Anderson it's amazing yeah it seems like I'd like to comment on what happened um I would have approved the replacement subject to ensuring that a wood material was used other than fibrics and one that provided maximum longevity uh and I would have approved because I think the use of storm windows exterior or interior are horrible in terms of historic preservation uh and getting them off the building uh on the exterior is worth a lot in terms of restoration and not having them on the interior is worth a lot so I would have been inclined to approve subject to a guarantee that the maximum longevity of the new window uh was equal to perhaps the original in terms of the wood product that was used it was probably not fibrics from the little I know about fibrics and I just wanted you all to know what my thoughts were on the subject thank you uh quick I'll get to you but just a quick comment on storm windows if we were to approve storm windows they would have to be historically appropriately scaled storm windows so for example if you're thinking of aluminum storm windows that gets leapt on to you know your typical house that would not be approved by this commission um they would have to be a material that essentially replicated the the form and shape of the existing windows so that from the exterior a non-trained eye would not really even notice just as a piece of information thank you you should come over to my house and see my interior storm windows they really do not change the appearance of the windows very much at all I have two kinds again I have one that was commercially installed on my upstairs windows and there is a little plastic bead that goes around the the window frame but it's relatively narrow and it's painted over the color of the trim and you don't see it during the summer in winter time you snap the windows onto it and it works very well the ones I made for my downstairs are just a wooden frame that I made and I tuck it behind the shade on the upper part of the window and the lower part I just put two little braces to hold it in and I unscrew those and take those off when the window when it's off you don't see any change at all to the window so there are options available for interior storm windows you should know that are pretty good and they're both fairly effective the upstairs commercial ones are better but the downstairs ones are really just wood frame and I took the 3m plastic and I sealed that tightened it up over that and I just put it's like reusable 3m plastic on my windows basically but it's on the wood frame that I just stick in the windows and it works quite well if you if you had your druthers and cost for not effective instead use a triple pane with very good it's a good it's a question I mean again my house is historically designated so it wouldn't be approved according to the guidelines I would love to have my windows open without being drafty like I said some of my leaf painted shut because it does make them work better so I'd love what I ideally it costs no object I would have someone rebuild all my windows yeah and again I don't know who does that but I guess there are people who can rebuild traditional sash windows and you know again this it's been shown in study after study it's not cost effective for for a thermal efficiency yes you add more insulation and whatnot but just for convenience and to get air movement it would be great to have windows working yeah thanks all right let's refocus here do we have anything in particular on the hbc code amendments to talk about or just the fact that we need to talk about them during the retreat not not much I know as I mentioned Glenn's not here this evening you know I know I did I'm reading through the December meeting minutes I know you mentioned regarding the plan to follow up with council to discuss a more focused set of amendments to the preservation code generally consistent with you know prior direction from council and then also ask council if they agree with the commission's recommendations about moving forward on addressing the code and I think it sounds like he's still working on finding a time to have that discussion with with council at an upcoming meeting and I know we've been able to fortunately finally hire a couple of new planners to fill a couple of a couple of our positions they're they're currently in training and that's that's good we have a couple more positions to fill. Glenn also mentioned that we're also looking at hiring a consultant firm to help with some planning projects that staff just hasn't been able to get to just due to resourcing limitations it's surprisingly it's been challenging trying to get applicants that go through the recruitment process so it's taken a lot longer than we anticipated to fill positions so hopefully with some of the new staff that we have that like I said I'll as I think as Jennifer mentioned at the December meeting it'll help free up some of her time so she can focus more on preservation related matters so that's about the extent of my comments on the code. Okay fair enough Commissioner Barnett you have questions to clarify Brian it just might have been a word or two here or there but it's my understanding that the commission didn't have any specific recommendations with respect to code we had a healthy discussion okay with the city's attorney city attorney and you were there for part of that I know and the mayors in the mayor and the other council members that were there and and then it just can't stop because the city attorney realized he's got to have to go back to square one and see well in light of what we heard what do you want to do so and be careful saying that we have any recommendations right I know there was a discussion for the December meeting kind of about and I think Glenn kind of laid out well what's your maybe your top priorities for code amendments if in fact yeah no there was that we talked about that top priority for code amendments well for for our whole agenda but what was specifically what was discussed was was peeling out the demolition portion of for and to act on that piece to try to make a rather than a broad brush all these different things the overlay districts on and so forth just peel out the demolition ordinance piece and try to act specifically on that as a as a commission to try to get something moving because the bigger picture was too overwhelming for the reasons that you brought forth and getting council involved and so on so those bigger pictures that that's still a part of our the demolition ordinance would still be part of our retreat but we'd like to get moving on that but that's that's been identified as probably the most highest priority for the commission and then the other piece to act technically to truly make something happen and the other pieces are a little bit more waiting on the broader discussion of the retreat council no just the city's should we have our own council I don't think the city's gonna fund that well I mean as as requested you know the commission can request that a representative from the city attorney's office attend the meeting if there is legal matters to consider yeah I know obviously we have a regular member of the city attorney's office attend the planning zoning commission meetings just because of land use matters and quasi-decisional decisions that are made but if there is a legal related discussion we can certainly request that city attorney's office attendee I asked the I'm a lawyer by the way with 60 years of experience and from what a no I already have a conflict if I were to do that but and that's my point and it sounds to me like there is a lot of law related subject matter that comes before this commission and that's not surprising at all and even if you needed a lawyer who is volunteering who you're not going to pay to have a lawyer responsible to this commission who has no conflicts or potential conflicts uh I guess that comes to the point of a suggestion on my part and I suspect that within the community you could find a lawyer who would have no conflicts and it's representing only this commission has it's obvious to me is my first first time I've been here this commission has a large circle of legal matters which in which it could have conflicts of interest with the city if you can find a volunteer even if you're not going to pay him but whose loyalty from a legal perspective is to the commission might be worthwhile I don't know if any example where a board or commission that has had an outside council that has not you know obviously where the board and commission has not been represented by the city attorney's office well I can I can give you a list of them all over the country well I'm just my example from obviously I've only worked here at the city for a long time so you know the landmark designation commission was formed and then became the historic preservation commission just employing the KISS principle you know it sounds like we haven't needed a lawyer so far very often at that all so just using the KISS principle I'd say employing the city attorneys when we need them would probably be adequate I mean I don't know and finding volunteers it sounds easy but it is very hard so if you can find a volunteer lawyer good luck but again I don't see a huge need personally I mean I'm relatively new to the commission as well you're you're the newbie you're second I'm third in line but I so I don't have a lot of history with it but I mean I don't think there's been a large need right historically yes but they're dealt with well enough without having a lawyer here to oversee it specifically to I mean the times where we have needed the attorney's advice has been essentially limited to discussions about making changes to the city's ordinance right and and we're gonna have the city attorney's gonna be looking at that no matter what so so yeah I think that's rick your points probably probably true I don't know I mean I don't know that we've I've sat in on planning commission meetings and city council meetings where the the attorney's been asked you know specific questions about land use and what the what the various commissions have been are able to do and not able to do and the limits of their authority and that sort of thing I and in the entire time I've been on this commission I don't know that I've ever had that kind of situation come up where the commission wasn't sure if they had the authority to make the decision that they were going to make I think it's generally pretty pretty clear and you know we deal with complex issues but in reality it's it's within a very you know sort of bandwidth right so I I have not seen that in my experience um all right well uh so I think that the issue if you can just kind of communicate back because to staff um Jennifer and I guess Glenn you know if we can if we can for sure have the demolition ordinance and a discussion of that on our next agenda uh regardless of where the um where the retreat lands because we'd like to start talking about that sooner than later and then the other bigger picture items can be on that retreat that's how we'll pass that information along and I'll make sure that they have my old research so excellent thank you all right uh so that just brings us to uh general comments from hbc commission there's been a you know decent amount of discussion here which is which is healthy uh if there's anything else anyone commissioners would like to uh put forth this evening before we I don't know appreciate the the comments in the conversation um we do not have our city council representative here with us tonight so there will be no comments there and that brings us to adjournment all right a motion and a second and all in favor of adjournment say hi we are adjourned I believe that motion and second motion came from commissioner jacobi and second from partner thank you all good night appreciate it thanks for your indulgement and putting up with me this evening