 I actually want to come to one place instead of actually with my department head responsibilities. Every one of our department heads in the College of Ag does have a small extension appointment. So I actually can have a license to come out and do this kind of work yet, and I appreciate that. So it seems like my calendar gets pretty full with a lot of other stuff nowadays, but I enjoy the opportunity to come out and do these sort of things and visit with folks. So what Carl and the organizing committee asked me to visit with you about this morning is talk a little bit more about some of the other co-products that we have in the state, their nutritive values and that sort of thing. I did want to follow up just a little bit on Dick's question that he had relative to conception rates. Most of the questions that come from high protein diets and conception rates, Dick, are in the literature with the dairy industry, particularly with dairy heifers. And there is data that does say that once you get up to 22%, 23% crude protein levels in the diet, that you do run into some conception rate issues. And basically what happens, at least in the dairy literature, is that those high protein levels, because of the way the protein is metabolized, no longer used as a protein source or amino acid but actually used as an energy source, it ends up creating excess levels of urea in the bloodstream and that actually, the urea, actually has some negative effects in the uterus relative to the attachment of the embryo in the uterus. So you'd have to supplement an awful lot of the fillers in most of our typical forage diets for beef cows or beef heifers before we'd approach those kind of levels of crude protein in the diet. But there is some indication that you can't have problems. And so if you're on a high quality forage and you were trying to supplement some additional fillers, that's probably where you might see the problem if it was going to develop. But in most cases of the beef industry, I think it's fairly low likelihood that you'd ever have those kind of issues developed. So what I'm going to talk about today, this morning for the next half hour or so, is a little bit on what makes a co-product or a byproduct a byproduct. Why is it that way? We'll talk about some of the more common byproducts that are available. Things like wheat, mids, potato waste, sugar beet pulp and associated byproducts, and just a little bit on some of the oil seed meals. So that's a brief outline of what we're going to cover. So why is it a byproduct? And I think to understand the nutritive value of these sort of processing co-products and stuff that's out there, you really got to take a little bit of time and step back and understand what the processing company or the processor is trying to get out of those products. So with the ethanol industry, what an ethanol producer like Carlson that you turn this morning is interested in is taking that starch that's in corn and turning it into ethanol. And so if you understand what the processor is trying to get out of their product or taking out of their stream, you can understand a little bit better what some of the characteristics of the products that you're dealing with as a byproduct might be like. So are they interested in the starch? Are they interested in getting the oil out in the case of oil seed meals? Are they interested in some of the fraction? The remaining product that you end up with is usually marketed as livestock feed. The other thing you have to understand is what's being added back. Are there other physical or chemical processes that that product is undergoing? What's being added back into that stream? In the case of the stiller's grains, then understanding that that sulfur is used in that process or added to the fermentation vats to control the pH. So you know that there's going to be some extra sulfur in those byproducts, aside from what the corn originally had in it. So I think if you understand that process and understand a little bit about the physical processes, the chemical processes that those products undergo, you'll have a little better appreciation for what some of the nutrient profiles that you might expect to see actually be in there. So if we just take an example of, let's just use the frozen potato industry. So if you are working with a potato processor in Grand Forks or Jamestown or Park Rapids and they're producing some kind of frozen potato products, could be French fries or hash browns or whatever. In that process, the physical processes that they use to do that is a process called steam peeling where they actually use steam to help remove the peel from that potato. The processor is going to cull some of those potatoes that come into that plant because of size, because of quality assurance concerns. Maybe they've got some sort of quality defect that they're going to throw them out for. And they're also going to add back in most cases products that are rejected. Once the product goes through the slicer to make potato products like French fries, they've got machinery and so on in place to look for quality control relative to fry length, blemishes on the fries, et cetera. And those products typically end up in the byproduct stream as well. So if you understand what the processor is doing and the processes that they're using to get to their food product or industrial product, you'll understand a little bit better what might end up in your byproduct stream. So let's talk a little bit about some of these specific products. So wheat mids is probably one of the more common ones, aside from the ethanol co-products in the state of North Dakota. And wheat midlings is basically a co-product that results from the processing of either flour or wheat spring wheat into flour or durum into semolina. And what you typically have in those products is wheat bran, the germ, and some of the residual starch depending on how they're milling it that remains there. Those products are available year-round. In some of these cases that we're going to talk about some of these byproducts are available only seasonally. Wheat mids are available throughout the year. They're usually pretty competitively priced. The majority of those products are shipped out of state. So this is a dry byproduct, about 85-88% dry matter, about 12-15% moisture. So they're pretty easily shipped in rail cars or trucks to job-state locations. Typically, this byproduct is pelleted, but you will run into a couple of plants. And Grand Forks is one example of the St. Mill and Elevator where you can get them loose, what they call bulk. They're usually pelleted because you increase the density enough where it makes a more competitive cost-effective to ship. And so the bulk product that you get that wouldn't be pelleted, typically you can't get an entire semi-load or a 40,000-pound load on a semi because you're dealing with too much volume. So generally, if you're going to transport them any distance, you really want to look at the pelleted type product. A typical protein would be 18-19%. The average out of our laboratory, when I was doing a lot of extension programming in this area, was about 18.7% per protein. Energy-wise, if you want to talk it on a TDN basis, typically it's going to be right around 80%, which is less than corn and less than barley. So they're less energy dense feed. They're a little more fibrous. Very palatable. They work well in a variety of different types of feeding situations. Generally speaking, you're going to see them used probably a little bit more in terms of use in forage-based diets that you would in a feedlot diet. There's a number of processors in the state that you can get these from, and this is just a list of names and whole numbers if you want to call about availability. That's where you'd go. Because of some of the seasonal price swings that occur, generally speaking, the price for this product is going to be lower during the summer than it is any other time of year. That's when demand for these is generally the lowest. Consequently, the price is typically the lowest during the summer, and so if you can lay them in in the summertime, they're generally going to be a little bit more cost effective. However, because of some of the moisture issues that you have with them, you're going to have a product that's about 85% dry matter, about 15% moisture. You're best off either storing these in flat storage like a commodity shed or in some type of aerated bin where you can get a little air under them and draw that moisture level down just a bit to get them to store long-term. Otherwise, you're going to end up with some mold development with these products. So in feedlot diets, my experience has been as working with producers that are feeding these in backgrounding and growing calf diets, they work very well as a complement to your grain sources. So barley, corn, those sort of things, wheat mids make a nice complement to those in a backgrounding situation. You can feed them up to your gain goals. Typically, I would say the limit would be no more than 10 pounds per head per day. My experience with them was once you get up in that 7, 8, 9 pound range, you tend to start to decrease or get poorer feed conversions with those because of the fibrous nature of those products. You can self-feed them, and so you can use them in creek feeders, creek feeding diets for calves and pasture, also self-feeders for backgrounding calves. Feed conversion efficiency isn't great when you do it that way, but it does make it a pretty simple way to feed them. In the finishing diet, again, they're probably going to be used mainly as a protein and fiber source, replace some part of the roughage in the feedlot diet. I would generally recommend no more than about 15 to 20% on the top end in a finishing diet just because the more you feed, the poorer your feed conversion efficiency is going to be. So there's probably an upper limit in that 15 to 20% range for that unless you can get them bought at very cost effectively. Let's talk a little bit about the potato processing co-products. So these products are going to come primarily from frozen potato product manufacturing plants. So plants that are going to be cut in French fries, hash browns, potato cuts, those sort of things. Almost all of this product in those plants is going to be a steam peeling process that's used to take the peel off of those potatoes. So generally, your product stream is going to vary a little bit depending on what type of product they're making, but essentially you're going to have the peel, the discarded potatoes, any of the product that gets rejected off the line. So short fries, fries with blemishes in them, all those sort of things typically end up in this byproduct stream. It's been my experience that depending on the plant you go to, there's a little bit of difference in the moisture level of the product that you actually end up with. And so with the product out of Grand Forks, there's plenty of people here in the audience that got a lot more experience feeding that than I ever will have in my lifetime. But generally speaking, that product is high in moisture. Our analysis of that plant's products over the years has been in that 85 to 87% moisture range. The plant out of Jamestown uses a little different process to get some of the moisture out. They have some centrifuging equipment that removes some of that moisture. Their product is down in that 70 to 75% moisture range. But again, all of it is going to be very wet product. And the challenge with any of the wet byproducts, particularly with products that are this wet, is with lethal fuel hovering around four bucks a gallon, transportation long distances becomes an issue. The product typically is going to, like I said, contain things like the peel, some of the residual starch, reject fries, small potatoes, that sort of thing that you're going to have with that. Our general recommendation, if you look at most of the data that's out there with some of the work that we've done, that Carrington's done, somewhere in a finishing diet, probably 15% of the diet or so is probably the upper limit in terms of before you start to really impact feed efficiency and performance. And most of this product is going to be stored either on a slab or in some kind of bunker. Generally speaking, either an earthen bunker or a concrete bunker. But we'll get into the storage issues a little bit more this afternoon. On the sugar beet byproducts, those products in this part of the world are going to be available through American Crystal Sugar, their five plants in the valley here, plus the Mindak plant at Wapiton. Most of that product is brokered by a company called Midwest Agra that's based out of California. But they handle all the brokering for the molasses, for the sugar beet byproducts that come out of these plants. They also handle, because of Crystal's relationship now, with Sydney sugars at Sydney, Montana, brokerage on that product out of Sydney as well. The beet pulp is a nice product to feed because it's a highly digestible fiber source. It's a product that's not going to cause you any acidosis issues because it lacks the starch. It's low in protein relative to some of these other byproducts. Only about 9% fruit protein, so it's not going to be a product that you're going to buy as used as a protein supplement. In our experience in working with producers that are using quite a bit of this product, it works pretty nicely in backgrounding rations as a replacement for corn silage or about that kind of energy ballpark that you'd have with this type of byproduct. And you can replace some of the roughage in a forage in a finishing diet with the sugar beet pulp. And so you can use it kind of depending on the type of diet you're feeding, either as an energy source or in more of a replacement for the roughage in some of your finishing diets. Generally speaking, you can get this product either as a dry pellet or as wet shreds. This is some research that we did with the product back in the late 90s. Two graphs here, the one on your left would be diets where we went from 0, 20, 40% of the diet in backgrounding calves without the addition of concentrated separator byproduct. And the graph on your right would be diets where we added 10% of the diet as concentrated separator byproduct, which is basically the de-sugar molasses that American Crystal produces. And you can see that as you increase levels here, that average yearly gain decreases in these growing diets. And the reason is because of that bulky nature of that product, it's highly fibrous. It's going to make the cattle feel a little bit fuller and they don't eat as much. And so when you go to these kind of levels, dry matter intake typically drops, feed conversion efficiency gets a little bit poor, but they kind of fill up on it and it's pretty bulky. But you can maintain, I would say, acceptable level of performance up to 20% of the diet dry matter is beet pulp. Going to 40% here is probably questionable unless you can get it bought really cost-competitively. And again, that was with the wet shreds. So like I said, you can get it as dry pellets or wet shreds, but the wet product is typically 70 to 75% water. Some cases a little bit wetter than that depending on how their machinery is operating at the plant to get some of the water squeezed out of this. Again, because of the moisture content of it, you really got to look carefully at transportation costs. But I do know this winter, these plants were moving loads of this product all the way out from the Redder Valley into the Mandan-Bismarck area. So they were taking it quite a ways, even at $4 diesel fuel. We've got experience storing this, the wet shreds in silage bags. So getting it in late in the season, they end the processing campaign, typically April-May. We would get this product in and put it in ag bags, plastic silage bags, and store it through the summer. For some of our research, it worked pretty well. But you're probably going to end up with a cost of five to six bucks a ton with that storage in the ag bags. And so you got to consider that into the equation as well. The Pellet product stores really well in flat storage, commodity shed type storage. Pretty easy to store it that way. So I want to comment just a little bit on sugar beet tailings because that's another byproduct that's coming out of these sugar beet processing plants. So this is a product where the plant is basically kind of screening the beets as they come in. The small beets, the dirt, all the other junk that comes in on the truck is going to get rejected and put in the tailings. So moisture content, extremely variable here, but we've seen samples come through our laboratory upwards of 85% moisture. So again, if you're looking at transportation costs, you're looking at a pretty expensive bill if you start moving this kind of product very far. High in dirt, high in soil, most sort of things essentially are diluting the energy value in the nutrient content of the product that you're getting. Good tailings ones that don't have a lot of dirt contamination in them probably are comparable to corn silage in terms of feeding value. Products that got a lot of dirt in them, loads that are pretty trashy, you're going to simply dilute that energy content and you're essentially filling those cattle up with soil instead of something that's got some nutrition to it. One comment I'd make is kind of watch out for occasionally you're going to see cases of hardware disease because of wire or other metal objects that come in out of a field, end up in the tailings product. It's just something to kind of watch out for. The other thing that occasionally happens is cattle want to try to swallow these smaller beets and so occasionally in tailings you're going to get beets that are anywhere from an inch to two or three inches in diameter. They want to try to swallow those whole and when they do that you get a choke issue with them. So it's just something to kind of be aware of if you're dealing with that type of byproduct. Okay, whole sugar beets is another one that occasionally comes up either in the fall when these cooperatives are kind of deciding how many beets are going to harvest if they've had like the last couple years record crops. You always have the discussion that they're having, you know, are we going to harvest all the beets that are out there? Are we going to just sum down? We've had worked with people in the past throughout the years that have taken in whole beets either in the fall or got whole beets out of storage piles where they started to go bad and crystals went in and tried to clean out some of the hot spots in their storage piles. Those products typically have a higher energy value than beet pulp do because the beet itself is going to contain about 18 to 20% sugar plus the associated pulp and water. And so when you're getting the whole sugar beet you're getting that sugar in there as well which is an energy source for those room and microbes. And so we've worked with people that are feeding those to cattle. Similar protein to beet pulp, so about 9% protein or so. Our best recommendation is to chop them prior to feeding but I've seen people just take them out there and dump them on fields and let cattle kind of go in and graze these whole sugar beets. You end up with some choke problems with that as well. And they can be in soil, so if you're looking at long-term storage here on something like this you can chop them in like a hay buster and then mix them with some other drive-by products or grains and pack them into a silage pile. And because of the sugar content they'll ferment very nicely and make a pretty nice silage with those whole sugar beets. But again, every step of that process between transportation and grinding and then packing into a pile, you're adding cost. You're associating more cost to the fuel and so on to do that. But there are ways to store those. I want to talk just a little bit about the wet corn milling process. Gailen mentioned this a little bit but I'll talk a little bit about the process that Lopatin uses to produce high-fructose corn syrup. And essentially in wet milling what they're after, again, is the corn starch. But in this case, typically they're using it for food-grade production. In the case of cargo corn milling at Lopatin, they're producing high-fructose corn syrup or in some cases starch. But the starch that they're using is either going to go on the industrial side to produce some kind of corn polymer or produce ethanol. But corn gluten feed is one of the byproducts that occurs or results from what they call wet corn milling. And it's made up of a byproduct called corn-steep liquor, which is the steep water that corn was soaked in prior to milling. And the corn bran or the outer covering, the fibrous covering of the corn kernel, what typically happens in these wet milling plants is that corn is soaked in sulfurous acid for anywhere from 48 to 96 hours. And then it's milled. So whole corn is soaked in this mixture of water and acid. And then you run it through a mill. It peels the corn fiber off of the hull. That goes into the byproduct stream. They extract the starch. And then the soak water or the steep liquor that the corn soaked in contains some of the soluble nutrients that came out of the corn kernel, plus the sulfur that they added to help the process. And that ends up getting put back on the corn bran and so you have this product called corn gluten feed. Corn gluten meal is a high protein meal that comes out of the corn protein, the zane protein that's contained in the corn kernel. That ends up in pet food and poultry applications. And corn germ meal is the corn germ. So it's that part of the seed coat that could contain the sprout if it was sprouted. That ends up getting typically added back to the corn gluten feed. Sometimes it's sold separately as a separate byproduct. So one bushel of corn going through one of these wet mills like at Lopiton is going to produce about 31 and a half pounds of corn starch, about 13 and a half pounds of dried corn gluten feed or roughly 34 pounds of wet gluten feed, a couple of pounds of corn gluten meal and about 1.6 pounds of corn oil. So that's the byproduct yield. What is cattle feeders are really interested in this corn gluten feed and that's the byproduct that's going to come out of a plant like Lopiton. Generally speaking, it's going to be sold wet, about 60% moisture coming out of the Lopiton plant or if it's dried and pelleted, it's typically going to be 12 to 15% moisture. 21, 22% protein would be typical for this byproduct. Energy content varies a little bit depending on if it's wet or dried, but the wet product typically would be equal to corn in terms of energy, roughly 88% TDN in that ballpark. The dry product, because of the drying process, does create or changes the chemical profile of some of the fiber in that product. It's typically, you know, 83% TDN on the dry, so maybe a little bit more like barley would be in terms of feeding compared to corn. It's a pretty palatable product and it's available out of Cargill corn milling in Lopiton. One of the things that happens with this particular byproduct is that the dry pellets, when you get them in storage, can bridge and it can become a problem. So typically, best results for storage in the corn gluten feed would be to get it into some kind of flat commodity storage structure commodity bays, that sort of thing. 25% to 30% of the ration on a dry matter basis would be kind of the upper limit of what you want to feed to maintain equal performance with corn. And if you're going to have a lot of it in the ration and move it very far, you probably want to look at the transportation costs of the wet versus dry. Let's just briefly talk about some of these other co-products. So the barley malt sprouts and barley malt pellets would be a product that should get either out of bush, shager resources over in Moorhead or a lattice shag over in Spiritwood. Basically, what they're doing in those plants is taking those barley kernels and sprouting them, producing the malt, and then the product that remains is going to be the barley hull, the malt sprouts, screenings and thin barley that gets put back into that byproduct. Lower energy, typically about 74% TDN, so something in the neighborhood of what you'd consider kind of oats type of energy content, about 14.5% crude protein. A very palatable feed, a very safe feed to feed because of the fiber content. This is one feed where you're not going to be able to get cattle to overeat or get into acidosis issues with these pellets. And again, lattice and Spiritwood would be the major supplier also, bush, shager resources over here in Moorhead. The liquid goat products that are out there, at least here in the valley would be molasses from the sugar beet industry. Most of these liquids are going to be used primarily for a couple of purposes. One would be to control dust in the dry ration or to improve palatability or to add some other specific nutrients. Most of the plants here in the valley are no longer producing what we traditionally thought of as molasses. Most of them are now producing this product called de-sugar molasses, or in some circles you hear it referred to as concentrated separator byproduct, but essentially they're taking what was molasses, removing about half of the residual sugar, and you're left with a product that's lower in energy but higher in protein and higher in some of the minerals than what molasses was. And that's the silver solubles. Galen mentioned earlier is a byproduct of ethanol production. Then corn-steep liquor is a liquid byproduct that's occasionally marketed out of plants like nwapitin from the wet corn milling industry. Those products generally, like I said, are going to be used as some sort of ration conditioner, some sort of dust control agent in rations. We've covered that already. Briefly on the oil feed meals, there's a number of plants throughout the state that are processing things like canola, sunflowers, soybeans. Those type of products, they're after the oil, they're going to typically go through a mechanical process to squeeze some of the oil out, and then they're going to use hexane to solve and extract the remaining oil that's in the meal. And so typically with these products, you can end up with a residual meal that's going to be relatively high in protein, low in fat or oil, and generally speaking, you're going to have oil content down around one to two percent. And most of those products are going to be used in any kind of cow rations or feedlot rations as a protein supplement. With all of the ethanol byproducts that are available in the state now, my impression is you're seeing less demand for some of these kind of products because you're getting plenty of protein on the components of the rations. So we'll cover a few of them, more of the major ones just briefly. Sunflower meal, 38, 39 percent crude protein, relatively low energy content because of the sunflower hull is relatively indigestible. So the more hull they're putting back into this meal, the lower the energy content's going to be. 8 a.m. in Interland and Hargill and West Fargo would be your two main suppliers in this area. Canola meal, 35 percent plus crude protein typically, higher in energy than the sunflower meal is because the hull of canola is a little bit more indigestible. Sources here are going to be the Altona plant in Manitoba, 8 a.m. in Interland and Velva, and then Northwood Mills in Northwood is also producing this product. And then HALAC Minnesota has a biodiesel facility under construction there that's going to use canola. That'll be another major source of canola meal that'll come online here in the next year or so. Safflower meal is a minor product produced from a plant out in Culbertson, Montana. This side of the state typically don't see much of that product here, but it's about 25 percent crude protein. Soybean meal would be what we'd consider kind of the gold standard for oil seed meals. And the reason is because it's relatively low in fiber and its protein quality is excellent. And so for swine and poultry diets, soybean meal is really what they want to have. Primarily because it's got very good energy, very indigestible, and they're looking for specific amino acids in those diets or in cattle rations because of the rumen function and because the rumen is the microbial population is producing amino acids for the cow or the steer to use we're not as concerned about protein quality. So soybean meal is one that really gets almost exclusive use in the swine and poultry industry, very little use in most beef cattle diets. Soybean hull is the other byproduct though from soybean oil manufacturer that we've got an opportunity to use in beef cattle diets. And so this product would typically be about 80 percent TDS about 12 percent crude protein. Works pretty nicely in backgrounding diets as a component of a creep feed. Both sort of applications where you're looking for kind of a higher fiber but a highly digestible fiber type of supplement that might be used for beef cows in the winter as a way to stretch some forage or as a component of a backgrounding ration. The last one I'm going to cover is edible bean splits and so this would be things coming out of these bean plants from anything like kidneys, black turtles, all of those types of edible beans that you typically see going into human diets. The splits from those can be fed to cattle. You've got to watch, there's compounds in these edible beans called enzyme inhibitors and generally what happens is they interfere with digestion at the small intestine level and once you get about seven to 10 percent of that product in the diet you're going to start to see the cattle get very loose, get some cases of scouring and so my best recommendation is if you're going to use these keep it to 5 percent or less of the diet or go through the hassle of actually roasting them and heating them to the point where you inactivate those enzyme inhibitors but from a cost-effectiveness standpoint I think you're better off simply just doing the 5 percent level and kind of watching the stool consistency and seeing how they're doing on them but that is one product that is available out of Engelvale if you're looking for byproducts so Crane, I don't know what you want to do scheduling-wise or if you want to take some questions now or you want me to hold those but he's hungry so they want to get the meal. K.W. Schroeder, he's been some dairy specialists and every so often they put together an updated pricing list and availability of products from North Dakota and I think if there are a few Minnesota South Dakota plants on there as well as some contact information he puts this one out Carl Hoppe also puts out a list of very similar information so if you have any questions about that you can either visit with J.W. or with Carl here he will be here all day today so that's a good spot of a question for Dr. Lardy this morning. Just wondering why you've got the feeding amount limited to 15% or less. The recommendation we have on that team is based on not only our research but some of the research that was done in Idaho and Washington and typically what we saw was about 15% on a dry matter basis so you have to kind of take that into account with the moisture content of the product but once we got about 15% of the ration in our research and the research that was done in the Pacific Northwest you typically see average A to G and feed conversion efficiency get poorer and so we're simply making that recommendation based off of animal performance so that's what we're looking for. So one of the considerations is kind of what that product is costing you relative to corn or whatever other concentrate you're replacing with it and so I know there's a lot of folks that are feeding quite a bit more than that but based on the biology of the animal that's what our recommendation is simply based on performance and once we got about 15% we saw intakes drop that would probably be a component of that you know it also has a little different fermentation pattern than our feed grains do and so there's probably some things going on with hormonal fermentation that are also a player in that as well. The question is if we're feeding cows can we feed a higher level than 15% we haven't tested that in forage you know if you're thinking about as kind of a forage supplement or more of a cull cow feeding you know we did our work with some finishing hampers most of the other work that's been done the Pacific Northwest has been with finishing steers you know the biology of the cow like a white fat cow sort of feeding program probably isn't a whole lot different than what you'd see with a feedlot steer but again we didn't test it that way so I don't know if I can give you a clear answer on what would actually happen with folks here in the audience that got a lot of experience feeding cows and I know they feed a lot more of it than what our recommendation has historically been we'll talk, I'll show you a few pictures this afternoon of some of the storage methods and feeding methods I've observed over the years with that byproduct and you know there are definitely ways you can feed more of it but again my recommendation simply based off of the research we conducted here the question is are there some complementary effects of combining some of these byproducts with other byproducts in improving animal performance and the research that's been conducted I'm going to speak in generalities here because each one of those combinations is probably a little different topic to talk about but in the typical combinations that you see where you might have 10, 15% of the diet is wheat mids and maybe 10 to 15% of the diet is soy holes or something like that generally you get some complementarity between products like that because generally speaking you know a single byproduct is going to have some nutrient limitations it might be some sort of amino acid deficiency it might be something else that's kind of missing in that that doesn't really make it suitable to simply feed and so when you combine it with something else whether it's another byproduct or you're using it as a component in a fishing diet you typically see better performance with combinations than you would with a single byproduct up to the typical limit you probably can't feed 100% byproduct diet and expect to get the same performance as you would with a diet that would be conventional that you would be able to learn and supplement type diet but you know again speaking in some general terms relative to some of the research I've observed over the years when you look at diets that might be you know let's say we're going to say that we're going to feed 30% of our diets going to be byproduct based typically speaking you probably will get a little bit better performance in that scenario but if you're going to have a different version of wheat mids and soybean hulls for instance like with the back down the calves then you would if you went with all of one or the other of those products and again there is some complementarity with the ethanol byproducts so the distillers grains not a lot of research out through this test but you're dealing with a little different animal there because generally speaking you're getting better performance in the corn in those diets with wet distillers than you would be if you didn't have the byproduct in there so trying to find a way to complement that to get even better performance is what we did for corn