 And so after I become the digital minister, I built the same tools that we use in the startup and in the technology world such as, you know, shared file storage, multi-user spreadsheets and editors and documents, Kanban boards, mind maps and so on in a collaborative manner but behind the cybersecurity department verified intranet so that we manage the entire policymaking process using such collaborative forms to encourage collaboration between ministries and between units and between the public sector, the private sector and the civil society. For the next few minutes, I'll just play a video outlining the open government process and then we'll get to the questions. I'm very happy to have this opportunity to celebrate the New Year with you. Today, we're going to use VR and 3D printing. I'm going to tell you how to make a delicious, open-vacuumed dish with good ingredients. Let's keep watching. First of all, we need to make the first step of making good food. Not only do we choose the right ingredients, but we also need to make sure that everything that happens in the kitchen is open and transparent so that we can experience it. Hello, everyone. Let's take a look at what ingredients we've prepared today. Ginger, red radish, taro, mushroom, soy sauce, high-quality vegetable, onion, open-vacuumed cooking, structure-based materials, open-vacuumed API, and a fish chop heart. Let's get ready to make the open-vacuumed hot pot. I'm here! Let me tell you that open-vacuuming is very important, but it's also very important to guarantee the privacy of the people. The key to making hot pot is the broth. The broth is to use onion, carrot, celery, boil them together for 7-7 hours, and then add the broth to make the broth. Wait, wait. No, no, no. Let me tell you. My mom taught us to cook for 800 years. In this broth, we must have onion, ginger, garlic, pepper, and pepper. We need to stir-fry them first. Then add the Chinese medicine, star anise, shallots, and cinnamon. Then we'll steam them all. Steam what? Don't steam them. Let the online show tell the public government to open a live broadcast to tell everyone. What is it? Let's have a meal together and have a big hot pot. Idiot! Is there an idiot behind him? The ingredients are really fresh. Who is responsible for it? It's me. The broth is really dry. Who is responsible for it? It's me. Me. But the most important thing about hot pot is the sauce. So what about the sauce? It's hot. It's okay. Can we eat this sauce? Can we eat this sauce? Can we eat this broth? Can we eat this sauce? Don't worry. The process of making hot pot is not only the professional opinion that has been introduced from the very beginning. And in the process, it will also take care of the voices of different interests and interests. Only in this way can we make the whole world happy. It's the best. It's so delicious. I've never had such an open hot pot. The cooking method of the ingredients is shared inside. Participants can do their best to cooperate with the production team to let us understand the process of cooking. Why? Why did you let me have such an open hot pot? What if I can't eat it in the future? It's okay. I'm not afraid to eat it. Now, please go to pdc.tw The public is a website for creating space. Let everyone update the information of the government at any time. Peace! Happy New Year! Hello, everybody. I see that there's 20-something people online now. First of all, hello world. In any case, I would like to thank the OpenExpo people for inviting me to this webinar. As I announced before, at the beginning of this talk, we will have a Slido system that will show your questions on Twitter and also on Slido itself. And I'll just base the rest of my talk on this, you know, collaboratively set agenda. And here is the Slido screen that I'm just going to project here. And we'll see if anyone has any questions at the moment. Let's take a look. At the moment, there's no question from Twitter, but maybe there's a question from Slido itself. And here we go. The first question is, hello, are you using any kind of open source in civil servant workstations? Yes. We use a lot of different tools in the civil servant workstations. At the moment, mostly of those tools are cloud based. And the reason is because Taiwan has already standardized on open format, such as the open document format and for, you know, immutable documents on PDF and for web published on HTML. So this is the document that we standardized on, but we're not really fanatic on open source. So if people decide to save and load ODF files using, for example, you know, open office, but also Microsoft office, both are fine by my account. So we're not dogmatic in the use of open source, but we are very much insisting on using open source as a stack of cloud based systems, because otherwise really the cloud based systems and not the citizens who will have the overseeing. So this is why my first action when becoming the additional minister is to go to our cloud based data center operating system which at a time is still running an OD version of Santa OS and recompiling the Linux kernel so that we can run secure computing and run SaintStorm. And SaintStorm.io being the group where of choice of our internal system is at the moment powering almost all of my office is daily work. So just took a very brief introduction on SaintStorm.io it is, I hope that you can see my screen hopefully. So basically the idea of SaintStorm is the same as any group where such as the Google apps Microsoft 360 and so on but entirely open source and hosted in premise that is to say behind our national cybersecurity infrastructures and tools that we use first and foremost is this tool called Rocket Chat Rocket Chat is just like Slack if you have used Slack you know how Rocket Chat works and we use Rocket Chat not just as a web based chatting platform but also as a document exchange platform between ministries we work with what we call participation offices so called POs one to three POs per ministries about 40 or 50 people and many of them are very senior officials in their 50s for example and then we make sure that our supporting team walk them through to enter them into the Rocket Chat application that's often the first application that they get to so that we can teach them other tools using Rocket Chat as a interactive supporting mechanism and the good thing about Rocket Chat is that it also has you know mobile version so it works on iOS and it works on Android so that you can also use it to replace your instant messengers knowing that all the storage is happening in Taiwan inside the government workspace and this actually we're going to make a regulation that says anything that's business oriented official public duty oriented communication must happen on premise that is to say in a business things provider that is local and that satisfy the security criteria of course this pertains to internal conversation between public servants this is not about public announcement which we still use twitter and facebook and everything because it is not about internal communication so that is the Rocket Chat part and for file storage we use dafros which is this built in system that is compatible with own cloud now I assume that a lot of you have at least heard of own cloud it is a fantastic draw box replacement that lets you synchronize using plain web dav to your local phones and like this ipad or servers and so on and because it is just plain web dav it can be made to hook into a lot of existing exchange solutions and so on so we can also do automatic synchronization and the own cloud client synchronization with unlike draw box allows you to mount many different virtual web dav servers into many different folders so that the own cloud synchronization happens on the cross ministry level on an internal ministry level on an internal office level and it wouldn't get the permissions of those three levels confused compare that with draw box where many public servants if they use their own personal accounts then they can only select one team and there is a lot of visibility and ACL issues around sharing official documents this way so this is usually the next application that we teach the public service and the next one is called weekend and it is this is a Kanban board which is a trailer you know clone and github also has its own project management system and everything and it is based on the very simple idea that all the everybody is working a left meaning that even if you're just working on one small thing we still allow you to see what everybody else is working on is a continuous activity stream easy as it may seem this actually run counter to the intuitions of public servants who usually only exchange their work progress with their superiors and also with their staff so just by introducing the Kanban board we make sure that there's no over long meetings and everything and that everybody can go home at the time that they prefer and still pick up their work afterwards using any mobile device and whatever so this is usually the next application that we teach the public servants and finally there's also collaborative document editing and this is usually two of them is called they both start with either the one you're seeing is either path and the other one which I co-wrote with them Brooklyn is called either calc is a collaborative spreadsheet now taken together we're not saying that you know you shouldn't use open document but we say before you deliver an open document document the collaborative editing part the brainstorming part they can have an elsewhere they can have on this kind of collaborative idea space so that everybody see that they're working on the same thing so we also use either path for what we call the say it system which is a real time transcription system that we take during our meetings which is then fed into either path and then I wrote it a converter so that you can see it in our pdis website our pdis website is a listing of pretty much everything that we have done and if you click how we work then it shows a track for all my public speeches all the meetings that I held pretty much everything that I ever did is shown on the track.pdis.tw website so for example the openexpo webinar itself is here and you can click to see the video and then there's also a meeting for example with the korean government 3.0 committee which if you click it goes into this say it system as you can see here and the say it system is basically taking free form text capturing either path and then have a structural presentation screen so you can see who exactly said what and you can also link to one saying in context link to just this one utterance but still always see its context and because it's kept in this structured data format for any say a document you can add a .an.xml the an stands for I think acoma and tosa so if you add a .an you see the xml structured data so we can then correlate all the decisions back to the meeting that they happen and who exactly suggested this thing that we happen so that say it and in addition to either calc which is this collaborative spreadsheet we also use this to edit what we call a hack folder and because we're hackers there's no e it's just hack folder and the hack folder is basically a shared curated bookmark list so that you can see that on column a we list all the pertinent URLs that we want the people to know about this particular thing and then on the second b column we list the labels so all this is then turned into this shared bookmarking here and then if you click share then it creates a publicly visible hack folder that we use to explain all the policymaking that we did so that people can click into one part of it and see where we are and then also see all the ministry's ideas around it and we use a QR code to show this hack folder as a context to all the radically transparent policies that we help making so this is not just collaborating a spreadsheet but still making this spreadsheet into this public aware hack folder where people can share very easily instead of sharing 5 or 6 distinct URLs at the same time so that's another sensor application that we use and the best thing about all this is that the ACL here is not just limited to public servants for any of those screens in hack folder or in either pad or everything you can select it's editing or viewing permissions and then just enter anyone's email address or get a shareable link that you can then paste into an instant messenger or something and then people can all just go here and then collaboratively edit or comment or view this document so this massively simplifies the permission model because anyone who has an edit access can share it for commenting access and who has a commenting access can also share the read-only access and so this is our common authentication authorization layer and then it also shows all the notifications across all the apps and greens that I use so if you're an open source author I would encourage you to port your application to the Sandstorm platform and upload it to the Sandstorm app market so that you can see a lot of very familiar faces here such as Media Wiki which powers Wikipedia for example Apache Wave for example a lot of various one called Sandpass which is a password manager and WordPress everything so this is pretty much it and finally our own team use this collections which then authorizes everybody's read or write permission to a group of documents or greens or other applications so that when we make an ad hoc team we just form a task force and share a collection with this task force which makes sure that all their open source offers and all the collaborative services and everything are just collected in the same space so for example this is our pdc team workspace which you can see that we have a huge number of Kanban boards and also collaborative documents and so on and even the collaborative documents for our live streaming set up that you're seeing now as well as our own Kanban board which lists what everybody is doing as of this week and then we can just see everybody's work with this tab so I hope this answers the question about using any kind of open source and civil servant workstations so let's archive that and see if there's anything on twitter there's still nothing on twitter let's see if there's anything on slide yeah I also would like to ask any recommendation about cloud based Microsoft access substitute I mean something like a self service for small databases the users can manage themselves and first of all either kill yourself when running under Sunstorm is actually a pretty good way that we use to manage pretty much all the database like things and this is not just out of laziness this is because either calc itself offers a really good API so that you can manage not just you know database like things and multiple she's and so on but you can always go to it's open API page and look at just one single cell or a summation or you can also fill in forms for example this is form input there's a live form here and then you can also set up webhooks so that it allows everybody to use either calc as a common computational engine and then so in the middle is either calc and there's hooks so that you can use remote data sources and there's also on the input side you can also use REST based API so that you can do a lot of Microsoft access like programming but just using JavaScript or just using any language that speaks the either calc API so that will be my first suggestion we also use software called discourse and we use it not just as a forum but also as a content management system and so if your access based data is more rich text based then although you can still use either calc I would also suggest you to look into the discourse system as you can see actually the entire pdis website is coded with discourse as its backend so everything all the speech and all the transcript and everything that we saw here is actually managed inside a discourse discussion board so that when you see open expert webinar it actually expands into a YAML document that says okay go to this YouTube address to see this webinar and the same for all the other forms of contents for example our collaborative workshop has a YouTube and a real time board and then if you click it it links to a real time board but the point here is that we use discourse as a content management system it's not just for humans but for people to pass their data and their metadata and their links to external systems and write a form from end to pass those structured data may be presented in a much more visualized much more connected form so if you would like you can just look at the pdis tw website and there's I think a github link here where you can see exactly how we are using discourse as a content management system so for example the track page that I showed earlier this one you can see a lot of tags for example open government uber mix Taiwan open data and so on and if you click any one of it for example api it shows all the meetings that I ever had relating to apis but this is not some some magical feature we can do this because it is just discourse system having a tag based system where people can just tag anything with any of those tags so if you look at for example this one you can just go and edit it and then add a tag called vtai1 and this allows you to show all the postings related to this tag so we use the categories the tags the structured data and also the fact that anything in discourse you can add a dot jason and then it will just show the same page in jason form just like when we used say it we add dot xml or dot an show in the xml form so we just use this as our back end for pretty much all our things alright so let's see if there's anything on twitter finally let's see there's somebody on twitter that says how weird is it that I can communicate with a taiwan minister easier than with their own government I have no idea it is my sincere wish that as we publish more of the toolkits that we're doing here and everything that we do is open source so that people can very easily adopt it in their local governments when I visited Madrid I think one of their city consul people was very interested in the structured data of transcript interaction so that's one part the other part I think is my habit of answering every and all questions so if you have any other questions after this event you can go to ask that pdis and then you just get into this discourse system and then you can see what everybody has asked me which is a lot right and then people would think that I'll get overwhelmed by committing to answer to all the questions within 24 hours but actually because people asked me all sort of questions before and the discourse has this wonderful feature that when people start typing and there's a similar topic asking the similar question it would just show up as a suggestion so this is basically a frequently asked questions database so that most people when they get into ask pdis and they type something they will find out it's already been discussed or answered before so I actually ended up getting less letters than I would if I just use a regular email based system the next question is do you know something similar to sandstorm.io in Europe well sandstorm.io is not actually based anywhere it is an international effort and it is completely community governed there is no companies promoting or selling sandstorm at the moment so just any government that want to adopt sandstorm.io can just go and install it as for installation instances in Europe I don't really know I know there is a shared data a shared sender called OS Sandstorm.io where there's many other users across the world and there's also from a soft I think in France that takes a lot of sandstorm applications including either pat and either calc and everything and just rename it with Fremont so for example either calc gets renamed Fremont calc and forms gets renamed Fremont forms and either pat gets renamed Fremont pat and everything and they've taken so much interest in maintenance of either calc so that's practically the contributions of the either calc are actually from the Fremont calc team which I think is great it is a great way to have international collaborations so yeah you can probably find communities around this kind of thing but to integrate it into one suite I'm currently only aware of Fremont Solve and own cloud and sandstorm but I'm sure there's many other technologies that I missed so the next question is about cloudron.io someone is asking whether I've evaluated cloudron and see whether it is better yes I did look at the program and the main difference I would say between the cloudron model and the sandstorm model is that cloudron is based on ACLs based on access control lists and while sandstorm is based on capabilities and these are two very different ways to think about security ACL is basically a closed world where you can see exactly how many uses there are and then just invite them into a workspace google drive, google apps, everything works in this way but the problem is very concretely speaking is that when we set up those collaborative workspaces we do want anonymous people just random citizens to come in and see what we're doing in which case it is quite impractical to just grant all of them one single account which is why we use a capability based model where any document owner can just share the same or lesser capabilities to like even publicly and then everybody who gets in can either edit anonymously or contribute anonymously or if they want register an email address and associate with it. There's no right or wrong but because of the way we work in PDIS in the public digital innovation space is the open world model we tend to favor capability based access control just so that we don't have to manage people's access manually and we can let people just share a bunch of a collection of permissions and implicitly share all its associated documents and applications but if you have a relatively close knit system I'm sure that Cloud Run or other ASTL-BET systems will also be a very good solution. The question is do I have a system to collect projects and ideas from citizens? Yes, we actually have a lot of them. One particular interesting application is called Polis and we use Polis to do the crowdsource idea saying that we did with Uber and so Polis is Open Source Averus GPL and then there's a hands-on demo and a walkthrough and a quaint. Well, maybe we can just look at the actual write-up. Just a second, let me just bring it up. So this is the V-Taiwan system where we solicit longer term public consultation on digital economy or digital service related issues. We talk about open data, we talk about the regulatory sandbox, a fintech, we're talking about sharing economy and so on. So for each of those cases we had a way to collect people's opinions. So for example, this is the Uber one and then if you go to the consultation page, there's this game. I'm not sure if Google Translate works here, but anyway the idea is that it shows a hack folder of all the information pertinent to the Uber thing so that you can see, for example a timeline. And then you can also see how it's currently being regulated around the world and then you can also see a lot of things, I'll just skip them over. And after seeing all those relevant informative materials you can then go back to consider one of your fellow citizens' thoughts. So for example, this thought is about whether this is a serious issue or not, whether you think it's important. And we ask everybody to start their statements with I feel that. So this person feels that it is, you know, not a very important issue. So if you agree or disagree, if you agree, then your avatar starts here, right? If you agree your avatar moves upward toward the first group. And then the next one says Uber is more efficient at dispatching, but taxi is more efficient at local knowledge or driving. Now if you disagree with that then your position then moves toward the right a little bit more. And what we're saying here is that it's basically a AI-based system or a machine learning-based system that tries to do principal component analysis or PCA. And then it's a visualization a visual representation of people's idea, thoughts and everything into a dimension reduction form. So that you can see, there's probably speaking four different groups. Unites behind this idea that anything that's illegally operating has risk. And then people here agree with that people here probably disagree with that. And this group, group two says that because of the five star rating system and everything the drivers tend to be more considerate. And actually not many people disagree with that even on the left group. Group three and group four. But the important thing about this system is that as you answer yes or no you can see that all these people here are your Facebook or Twitter friends and they're not just anonymous enemies. They're just your friends. It's just you didn't talk about this every dinner, right? So it prevents people from alienating each other. And the second thing is that people's position can't change. If you just consider other people's feelings and you have your own feelings to share you can just share it here for other people to to veil down. And finally because we say we only use the sentiments that convince more than 80% of people to negotiate with Uber. People kind of compete over three weeks or so to propose things that everybody can agree on. As you can see everything is screened here. And so basically we just took all those some majority ideas that managed to convince everybody at the end of their liberation and used this to make a regulation about Uber which is now regulation and Uber is now operating under this new regulation after a brief pause. So I think this is because they know that everybody's behind this regulation and it will lose legitimacy if they don't play by this rules. So I think the most important thing is that whereas the traditional forum tend to get people more divergent over time we use this kind of reflective space so that people can get more convergent and you can see it with your own eyes because at the beginning of the consultation it is just four groups at the corners and by the end of the consultation you can see people just converging to what I mean though. So this is one of the ways that we collect ideas from citizens. At the moment Polish is kind of difficult to host by yourself but we are paying Polish the startup developers to bridge Polish with Sensor so that maybe after two or three months from now it will be eminently possible to host Polish using Docker and Sensor and just use deploy it very easily with one click just like installing any of those one click app tools. Suppose will be one of the tools here and you just click here and you will just get into a forum that you can deploy to citizens and Uber Deliberation I think involves thousands of people so imagine if you had to manage access controllers for thousands of people but Sensor actually makes it very easy and very scalable. Any other questions from Slido? Alfonso would also like to ask whether there is digital signatures for official documents. Yes, we do actually have a digital signature law and we recognize the PKI cards and the car reader and everything so that it carries the same weight as a hand signature so this is how we deal with it. The form factor is kind of clumsy because it requires a car reader so we're also working with standard organizations like Fido and so on to make it contact based or more advanced to factor authorization scheme so at the moment it's based on IC cards and we do have a pretty good PKI system behind it. Do you take any measures to prevent few people from creating many users to manipulate? So this is why we ask for feelings and not suggestions. Feelings there's no right and wrong and most importantly if you zoom way in you can see group 1 is 500 people and group 2 is 200 people but it's not drawn to scale. Even if there's 5000 people here they will still occupy the same area and this is because we value the diversity of feelings. We don't really care about how many people you can mobilize to express exactly same feelings because those are not useful input to everybody else. The useful input is those novel eclectic thoughts that when proposed managed convince everybody across the board so no this is not a voting this is not a telling and when we say super majority it means that it has to convince a super majority of people here meaning that for example if there's only two groups it has to convince all of the first group and half of the minor group and so for one of those consultations we used to have a 80% 20% split and then the threshold is then set at 90% because then you have to convince everybody in the majority plus half in the minority and so with this kind of rules there's much less incentive to gamble or to gain the system and so we consistently get pretty good diversity of feelings because we don't ask for suggestions or decisions that is still left for the face to face deliberations to work with what we just want to know as diverse as feelings and reactions as possible. Now let's look at that. On the Twitter tab Open Expo is reminding that everybody can use this hashtag to ask questions so we will very quickly archive that and which are the main profit of the open government for the citizens now this is a great question and I'll try to answer it more systematically. So when we say open government we actually mean four things and those things are not always in harmony. The first thing that we mean by open government is transparency and concretely this means that when we make policies we always justify it with a process so the process itself as well as the data that is the input of the process need may be transparent to the general public otherwise people wouldn't be able to know why we're making these decisions so transparency is based on a law called Freedom of Information Act and which says the government must proactively provide such informations. The main process of course that makes the government making much more aware to the civil society and to the private sector because otherwise people can't usefully give us opinion if they don't know what we're doing. So transparency levels the playing field so that everybody know what kind of regulations are being considered. Now after transparency usually it's about participation and this has two forms one is passive participation meaning you know citizens as users meaning that when we are working with information systems we collect people's usage data and we ask people what you feel about it and so on but those are more like measurements or telemetrics when we're talking about participation we also talk about the important power here called agenda setting power meaning that the citizens tells us what to talk about to think about not just using our systems and then tell us how they feel but also what they feel as important and the main profit here is that we can then get regulations out that we know that satisfied those needs instead of just what we think as good idea. So this increases trust between the citizens and the government more than transparency would do because with FLIA and with transparency people can always say you know you publish the things that you publish but we have no say in the things that you're discussing so you're just you know telling us this 10 things are important making them very transparent but we think that 11 things are actually more important which is why we have a petition system and everything that allows participation and the third thing is about accountability and this means after participation after regulation or projects is being done it is then implemented right by the local governments or something like that but if we do have a way to hold the implementers accountable even the best ideas can be carried you know in a bad way and if there's no feedback cycle so that people can say hey this was a good idea but it was implemented very poorly then people will be encouraged to just get out of this idea that appease to the civil society without thinking about whether they can be actually done so the accountability part is a feedback look that then goes back to the transparency based on the thing that are already in progress and also let us know who exactly decided what and the main profit of that is that it reduces the risk of everybody involved because people know who exactly is responsible for what instead of having one media people or one legislator accusing a certain public servant to have undue responsibility so the final goal I think is inclusion it means that it's not just lawmakers or code makers get to do public policy but all the stakeholders everyone who gets affected by a public policy gets to involve in public discussion so this is the idea that I run mostly which is the idea that any civic or government technology must be assistive meaning that it should let more people participate as users as collaborators instead of excluding people so it's not like we don't do face to face meetings or deliberations anymore we still do those but we use live stream use slide use everything to get the message out and get everyone who can't get to the face to face meeting the same process and some similar feelings of empathy that was affected in this way the next question do the general public including the non-tech savvy people use and understand their systems now Taiwan is pretty privileged in this sense because if you just look at the network readiness index meaning the access to broadband and so on Taiwan is actually I think the number one or number two where Taiwan was Iceland or Finland or something so we're in the top three and the index the internet penetration rate is very very high so that anyone can theoretically get to this kind of tools and we're working on the final few percent because our current president Tsai Ing-wen has as her campaign broadband access as human right so in the next few years we're just going to go to those of originally villages, those offshore islands outlying you know rural areas and make sure that if they don't have a 100 megabit broadband at least they have an equivalent speed wireless connection so we take this very seriously about making everybody digitally connected now this only covers the use right they can get to the systems but whether they understand it and this is why we make movies like the one you just saw about the open government hot pot and things like that because you see people already have a way of deliberation maybe they find a tree or some temples or something and talk about their community affairs right the problem before with many models of civic engagement was that this website and only things that's written on this website has fighting power and of course this creates a disconnect between the local people's experience and knowledge versus the people who are very good with code either you know programming code or data or law right but what the technology we're doing here be it the live streaming or the 360 capturing or the real-time transcript keeping and everything our channels so that people can still use deliberation techniques they developed locally but it's filmed or it's real-time transcribed it's summarized and and and added to this heck folder system online so that in the next area in the next village when people talk about very similar things they can then download from here and then continue the consultation so if you ask a community college or something they would say well I'm vaguely aware of this open government platform but what we actually see is the community worker or the social worker or something with a camera or with a recorder or with a whiteboard or something to take our opinions we don't directly go to this website and unless of course we want to check it how the progress is going and so on so there is a disconnect but the point is that every point in this slope has something for people to contribute to and I think this is the main idea but the open government work that we do what else what that's it from the Twitter let's see if there's anything back from Slido the question is have I felt the need to integrate a sensor apps with outside apps or to cross the barriers between different grains and sandstorm yes and that's what we sponsored Kenton and his friends to develop it's called sandstorm power box the power box is a intent based system think when you're using for example android you open your email and then it contains a I don't know an open document file and then you click the open document and it pops up something that says you have installed apps a B and C that can all handle open document and which one would you prefer and would you like to remember this choice so this is the same idea of power box and if you select application B you just transmit that one single capability of viewing the document into the application B screen and fires a grain immediately on top of that so this is the within grain communication infrastructure and it used to be that it's only declared with this captain protocol but we paid Kenton so that it can now be declared using just regular HTTP semantics and headers so both sides if they implement a set of HTTP protocol they can declare the Miami types that they handle and just transfer the data easily using power box systems now our current phase of deployment with Polis because Polis is actually a long running system within closure the startup time for disclosure engine is actually pretty high although we can use snapshot techniques in Linux to make sure they resume at some state or something it is kind of cutting edge so we're not doing that what we're doing is that we're running Polis in Docker as a long running service and declare its API using you know the OS3 standard which used to be a swagger right but they incremented the number of their version and now call itself OS the open API specification which by the way we're also translating to Chinese and making it a Taiwan national standard recommendation so it documents the Polis API this way and then the send storm green is just a front end that displays the react based programming interface but all the computation is done in Polis in this long running process so many different greens but they share the same Polis instance and still the communication here goes through the htv proxy the capability handshaking thing and then we also commission Polis INC the Seattle people colon and friends to make sure that Polis can be packaged in Docker and documented in this API and handshaked with send storm in this way it's still currently under development but I think when this is done in a couple months or so you can use this general idea to exchange a virtual small front end green with a larger background system for example this course that will be the next natural topic or Lumia or any other open source ideas so anything else we have about 20 minutes these we've done well it seems that like there's no more questions at the moment how do you integrate technological illiterates into digital process is there an alternative offline system I must stress there is always starts with the offline system so the Uber deliberation is actually face to face the stakeholder deliberations face to face is just augmented with the online system so if we go to RP this youtube channel well how about just a website and look at the the board that we use our weekly meetings you can see an overlay hopefully here and the overlay shows our basic philosophy it always starts with a safe safe space which is face to face and then we invite all the stakeholders discovered using rolling survey or e-petition or whatever into this space and we provide them good informative slides based on this idea and then we tell them that this is a due process that we work in the safe space that incorporates problem definition the issues that we co collaboratively determine which are important and then we do service design and idea development based on that so we always tell them which point in the process we are in and this is a point that I would like to stress is called process as commons that is to say not just the output itself is open or transparent or accountable but the process the diamonds here that we are doing is also a matter of public information all the toolkits everything you can find it on pdis website so that it makes it eminently possible to run this process in a community level in a city level and everything not just like we did on a national level so the process itself is also our outputs and then when we collaboratively the mind map by the stakeholders here you can see the stakeholders working very hard there is a parallel track going on on internet using live streaming and the other information so that when at the end of a segment for example I would go in and read from Slido and then answer the Slido questions and maybe people online have very good input for the people offline to deliberate on but because this is text based it is impossible for them to share the full extent of their subject experience but so the stakeholder diversity is very important because we want to make sure any input from the Slido or from YouTube or anything has someone with a similar person experience who can then proxy for them and then argue for this particular point so the online part is always just augmenting the face-to-face part and even the most technologically illiterate people are the most important one we invite to the face-to-face meeting to make sure that they understand the process approve of the process and can interpret those calling questions and of course it's not just for input it is also for output because then we publish a full transcript of what everybody has said during this process both the mind maps both the transcript itself and also a summary document of what gets decided what did not and then I take it like this is a Friday meeting every Monday I take this to the premier to prime minister at Monday and so it always starts with face-to-face augment it with online tours maybe broadcast the games to get more awareness so we get more more diverse feelings and experience but it's always converged back into a face-to-face space hope this answers the question let's see if there's anything else okay back to Slido I'm dreaming of a MOOC of a massive online education platform on Slido admin and community management with recommendations on which apps to use for what is the closest thing today what the thing is that Sans Storm is very much like with army bazooka or something with army knife so that it the main point is about fitting the parts of Sans Storm together it's not about individual tours so when we do service design we always start with what people would want to do if they don't have this kind of online tools and then we try to approximate the connection that people use and make and this best property of the space and recreate it using online tools so my suggestion would be aside from the very basic like file sharing and chat room maybe everything else should be driven by the demand of the user of the community so it's easy if you start with post-its for example when I first got into the digital ministry office I had this glass wall that I hand-drawn those Kanban boards and have physical post-it notes and we run stand-ups and so on so that everybody in my team at the time about five people know exactly what the Kanban is doing, what the WIP is what is it done what qualifies this idea and how to separate the ideas into minor actionable items and things like that and only after a couple weeks of this kind of hands-on experience on the front of the same glass wall do we then digitize it into the WECON system and the reason is it is too easy to create complexity in online tools it is very easy to come up with this fabulous workflow system that nobody will then actually do because it costs too much time but if you're doing it with pen and paper with whiteboards and everything people will converge as something that it genuinely suits their needs only if because it's very expensive time-wise but if you then take this good practice and codify it as code then everybody knows how to use it how the workflow works within their own existing workflow plus they can ignore the parts of the tools that they don't really use so I think my suggestion would be running a workshop using traditional design thinking tools with your local community and record all that and maybe use Trint or some other tool to make real-time transcription and so on what you want, what you demand of the system and then do a collaborative design using sandstone tools or other open-source tools and not the other way around that would be my suggestion let's see back to there I think there's not much more on Twitter all this seems to to have been unstuck so if there's no other questions on Twitter or Slido I'll call you a wrap and remember you can always ask me anything if you go to ask that pdiss that tw and my Twitter handle is et Audrey T A-U-D-R-E-Y-T alright, so that's it then thanks everybody for joining me today and have a very good local time thank you so much, bye bye