 Corinne, welcome to Slush. Yeah, it's great to be here. Extremely well-organized events, fantastic. So what is it like being the co-founder of a 26-year-old startup? Well, it's been a hell of a journey. I can tell you that and yeah For any entrepreneurs here the younger one is the story of resilience. I can tell you it's How to pivot Yes, having looked at the story of Tom Tom I think the thing that strikes me is that there are three sort of key stages to the the company's history that there's been the Start and the incredible growth. Yeah There's the fact that you disrupted an industry and then you actually got disrupted yourself Yeah, and then how you actually pivoted again So if you could go back to the to the start I think with so many startups in the room What was it like for you starting out getting your idea and then dealing with some incredible growth and success? Yeah, so we started with four people in in Amsterdam three Dutch guys at me and Originally we were doing it so you were back in the early 19s when Computers were not so widespread and we were designing very easy to use software We were doing that for the utility market in Holland We then pivoted to be to see software. Some of you might remember the old one in the audience products like sion palm pilot Compact I packs the predecessors of the smartphone and we were actually market leader in making applications for those for those products And in 95 we started making maps for those products And we realized that this was selling out selling any of our products tend to one So we kept thinking there is a better way of doing this and to cut a long story short decided to Bring an all-in-one navigation and that's in 2004 by then we're a company of 24 people there's no VCU wanted to touch us with a bash pool I mean everybody thought navigation was gonna come from the car So nobody was prepared to give us any money. So which was a good thing You know, it was the old-fashioned days where you had to sell product and made money so we put everything we had ourself the four founders and and we launched the first navigation system in 2005 and the thing just took off Before we knew it we were selling a million products in a year a million products in a month in a week and in a black Friday 2008 one million product in a day With democratize navigation saved a lot of marriages in the process what people are, you know we're navigated for me to be in the car and Yeah, and then arrived 2008. Well, how did you before we get to that stage? How did you deal with such scale? Because sometimes people say to be the failure is something that that can inspire and lead a company on but how does a company deal with? such rapid success especially in a bootstrapped hardware company Yeah, I think it's so we went from 40 million to 1.8 billion turnover in five years and from Company of start the week for about 20 people to a 5,000 people after we're quite the last I Think that to be honest. I can't remember there was It was crazy and the key especially the first few people you you hire You need to make sure when you scale at that level than a technology company the The key was to make sure we organize ourselves for for growth and success and that's very hard And I'm sure a lot of companies in the room scaling is is tremendously difficult The key is really not to lose sight of the problem you're solving So make sure that people who join the company at the management team are sharing in the passion and what you're trying to do and Then try to organize yourself as you're scaling to make sure that you know You know who's doing what and be efficient that's very hard And how did you maintain the culture because one of the things that when I speak to a lot of startups? What they say to me is it's very hard to give up control This idea that you're a you're a close-knit group of people when you start and then you need to hire and you need to Trust people and you need to delegate and a lot of the time companies. They don't want to give up that control They you know, how did you trust people to start a scaling to the level that you needed to do? Well, first of all, I think the key and I spoke to same for any companies your management team and you found the team is very important In our case there was four of us that we all very complimentary in our skill set You had one person who was very good on the strong product vision and a good financial background You had two guys who are amazing at designing software and product very easy to use So the success of Tom Tom was in that ease of use and I wasn't too bad at selling and marketing and doing pretty much Everything else that the guys didn't want to do now need joking But so I think that's that's so that starts there And I think you it's a fallacy to think that you can grow without losing control So you need to surround yourself with people you trust and you need to Understand that the only way to grow and scale. I mean we're now in 50 countries It's really by surrounding yourself with people you can trust to do the job for you So and managing them well, so I think you need to relent a bit of control But you need to keep the division and I think what we always did very successfully is monopolize and and and get everybody on board with the problems we're trying to solve I think sometimes when I hear a lot of startups I'm a bit worried sometimes where there seem to be more proud about the investors They have on their board that the problem they're trying to solve and I think the the key is really You know, what is it that you're trying to do with your company and in our case We were trying to solve traffic congestion. We were trying to get real-time map making we were trying and today We're trying to participate in the urban revolution with the autonomous driving So following that dream and that passion about the problem you're solving I think it's key. That's how you attract the right people who share your passion And then you can trust them because they are as motivated as you are and when you scaled I think looking back a huge investment for you was the purchase of Telly Atlas. Yes. Was that nearly three billion? Yeah, that's three billion euros. Yeah, and this took you from being essentially the box maker to owning the mapping software This was a huge part in how you sort of scaled and As will come on too soon sort of secured your your future But how did you integrate two firms of such size? Yeah, I think what's important to understand is the rationale behind the acquisition That's again is we wanted to be virtually to completely integrated. We knew that we had a lot of Customers will bring us map changes. They were telling us where roads were closed or where there were changes And we wanted to be able to to have a real-time map if you want So and we needed that base map to be able to put the changes in it validate them and we broadcast them same With our traffic information So we when we're quite a lot last there was a merging of two companies with very different business culture But at the same time with a similar goal And I think to do the way we could monopolize and and get everybody to share that that that goal that we had Was a way to integrate and get the culture together And I think the culture in a you know We now have about 5,000 people but to keep that entrepreneurial culture has been key for us We are still take and what I mean by entrepreneurial is we take risk a lot of the things we've done always people have thought We were mad when we bought our first navigation system as I said people didn't think it would ever work People saw the navigation will come through the car and when we were quite a lot last people so we were crazy A month later Nokia decided to a crime here the naftech at the time so I think that the map was a crucial element of a Tool that we needed to to fulfill our level of ambition. So so that's how we we managed along the way to to keep taking risk and to keep Yeah Focusing on the innovation. I think that's what kept us where we are today I'm sure a lot of you see me here and things while Tom Tom you guys are selling sat nav And Google is taken as it on your lunch. Well actually not quite isn't isn't that also the nightmare that that you created this startup You created this global entity and then one of the biggest tech companies came in the world and gave away a good enough Version of your product for free Yeah, that wasn't very good for us. I mean, you know when you you can imagine that's that's that's huge amount of disruption At the same time There are a lot of problems to be solved I think there was a lot of consumers who wanted to have a dedicated device or device are offline now So you can use them without having a connection. So a lot of customers still like that But we also diversified our business. We have a telematics company and today We are really focusing that real-time high definition map that is going to be required for autonomous driving Well, you sort of in a way you started to embrace the competition because for example I know that in Apple Maps you're a you're a huge partner in that also in uber Yeah, and so what was it like when you realized that you were at a moment where you were no longer necessarily competing you were more Partnering that you again you had to pivot and you you had to change dramatically in what you were doing Was it a difficult thing to do? Was it a logical thing to do? Did you feel like you were a startup all over again? Yeah, I think we we knew that Because a lot of it came from a very big successful technology company I was called sion at the time and we knew that this this doesn't last forever We knew that we we had to diversify the business. So actually we had started diversifying where quite a company I was making traffic information and telematics before the big disruption in 2008 So we had already diversified the business, but always with our core business of knowing the route and And basically getting people from a to be in the safest possible way I mean whatever happens it will always be cars whether there's someone in them or not they'll be cars and they're gonna need to go somewhere and we feel we can play a very Important role in that ecosystem and that's what drives us today And that's what's been driven us for the last 10 years. So yes We have pivoted and we have that great big level of ambition and so is this essentially where you see it that that People still need to get from a to be and whether it's whether it's a car driving them itself Whether it's a person driving them itself, whether it's public transport people will still need maps or robots will still need maps to follow So where is the future that the Tom Tom sort of looks out today when when you go all the way back and you look at something such as the The box and then you you look at the disruption you caused the way that you were then disrupted yourself And then how you look towards the future Where do you now tend to look at your your different roles within the future for the future of the company? So we have a huge amount of knowledge on the on the map making I think the people who are gonna For autonomous driving and that's globally you're gonna need to be able to map maps in real times It's gonna be one of the technologies and you need to do this in a scalable way in a global Where the lowest cost possible so you need to optimize everything so we've been using actually artificial intelligence for a long time already We're used of managing and dealing with huge amount of data We have us seven hundred nearly a billion people using all data every day to navigate We have a huge amount of data and we can just keep that data current so the next step is really Urban revolution will change our cities. You know the problems is huge people get killed on the road every day Our cities are congested Pollution is immense and I think there are some big problems to be solved there And we feel that with the expertise that we have the way we can deal with that data And that notice that we have we can be a major technology player in this big revolution Urban revolution of tomorrow, and that's super exciting for a company like us So that's why I'm very optimistic for the future and the way that we've been able to Anticipate adapt and working on cool technologies today And that's the way we can attract also the best engineers in the world to keep and work with us on solving that problem How did you transform the culture of a company which was essentially a B2C company? To what I suppose now is increasingly a B2B company and to maintain the sort of the same culture the same spirit How did you transition that from a from a people perspective? I think in any company is that the culture is established by the founders of the people at the top I think as leaders of an organization you have a big responsibility Towards your and you have a big impact on the company culture and for me company culture is key I mean if you're an entrepreneur, you know, it's it's very hard There's a lot of rewards because you're in charge of your own destinies You can take risk and change the world at the same time you need to be very resilient So I'm a big yeah, I think that we managed to keep fun in the organization We have a flat organization where everybody kind of works together towards a big goal I travel all offices around the world and I see that same entrepreneurial spirit We encourage our people to innovate every day. So we don't have a innovation officer of an innovation office We just innovate towards our goal in a in a daily fashion and and try to do the use the best technology that we have So I think we've managed to keep that entrepreneurial spirit. We have fun doing what we're doing And and I must say I have a very loyal team that for a long time. We don't have a high level of attrition and So we and we yeah We get people to to join our dream and in solving those problems Is it unusual that I believe the same four? Co-founders are all still together roughly in the same positions 26 years later and How key was that and also how difficult is it to keep people who again have been been there for 26 years? When you've had to evolve and pivot the company so much Well, I think as leaders, I mean we were having this launch earlier on where we're discussing the you know The reason why you run companies and I think it's never money. I mean we we went public in 2000 and Five years 12 years ago And and we could have retired The reason we kept going is because we felt we were on a mission and I think people in the organization Believe that with us that we on the mission to to make the world a little bit of a better place And I know it sounds a bit cliche But we really believe that with the expertise the experience that we have we can do that and that's posed as founders That's what gets us out of bed every day and and in when times are hard and when you know You get disrupted the belief that you can make a difference that you can take the right level of risk And that you can change things is a it's actually that Responsibility and that passion is is very important I think for any entrepreneurs with any problem you're trying to solve and I just wish you to to have that same level of Eagerness in trying to change things if you look at where Tom Tom was maybe 25 years ago I'm sure you could never have envisioned that success that came but then maybe you couldn't have envisioned where the company Eventually ended up, but do you now start have an idea when you look at the future where you want Tom Tom to be? Do you have a vision sort of ten years in advance or with the size of company? Do you still tend to look at getting to milestones as you say with the the devices you knew that they were they were going to Exist for a certain period. There was a lifespan to them now Do you tend to look a long way forward or do you tend to look to specific hurdles? I think you have big mutes I think when you look at autonomous driving and a lot of companies around here that are working on on their parts in making that That urban revolution possible We don't know Where it's gonna end up and there are a lot of companies gonna arrive in the next You know autonomous driving will be around fully autonomous 10 15 years So I think that's that's how far we look at we know that things will change and and that we We can contribute nothing. That's the way we look at it. So we look we have milestone, of course We are our map making tools and our real-time map making tools is we have milestone within the organization But the way to get there is not always straight So I think you always need to get that light on the horizon or what is the problem You're trying to solve and that is your role in that in that revolution I think it makes for a lot of very good metaphors the journey of Tom Tom as essentially a company then that that is Say I said at the start. It's like a 26 year old startup given that it keeps Restarting and restarting it pivots and pivots and that the pivot is often such a fundamental part of any startups journey What would you advise for for companies as they see success or as they have to change their business models? The things that can side swipe them in either the early days or as happened with you at the piece of success You can get sideswiped to move on What would be your advice be to companies when they have to make that kind of hard decision? I think as companies as entrepreneurs. I think you have a very good idea of the problem you what you're trying to do I think it's you've got to have that belief in yourself. I mean entrepreneurs. We You know, it's not a job. It's a lifestyle And so you work day in day out in trying to to get where you want to go And I think sometimes you tend to get a lot of advice from everyone I think that's While advice is welcome and I think you know to get mentoring is good But never lose sight that you know more about your organization than anyone, you know why you're doing it So if you keep an eye on the competitive landscape or what's happening It's important to also follow your gut feeling your intuition at the same time You need to be aware that you can get disrupted So you need to also look broad at at your level of competence the technologies you develop the IP your filing I think it's very important as well to look at the uniqueness of what you do We file huge amount of IP that's the other thing when you scale as well when you get big You got lots of trolls if you start doing business in US Especially you need to make sure you have a good patent portfolio, but I think that some yeah The key is is to really believe in yourself believe in a problem you're solving keep at it And and look and book small successes along the way that validate your your assumptions as well to make sure that your customers Buy in your product that sure we get a lot of feedback of course for my customer We're always listening trying to see how we can make things better, but I think the drive is how How can we make things better? I think it's always there in the back of your mind So you get to one stage and there must be a better way of doing this There must be a better way of doing this and then you innovate you take risk and you get there because if you don't Essentially if you don't disrupt yourself other people will disrupt you. Yes, that's true and along the way we've launched a lot of You know before uber came we had a similar product we base the platform for taxes and Europe is complex sometimes a lot of regulatory so we We launched this product and we had to pull it out So sometimes you do things and sometimes it doesn't work, but I think it's good to to try and keep trying Yeah, and keep taking risk Karine, thank you very much. Thank you