 Hello, I'm Mike Hanna. Welcome to this panel. The metaphor discussion on this day is going to be migration, the inside and outside of South Africa and the voluntary movement of populations between and within national borders. The vital points that we hope to focus on are what are called the push and pull factors, the reason why people leave where they are and why they head to where they end up. The clearest crises are at each end of the continent at present. We've got desperate Africans drowning in the Mediterranean attempting to get to Europe and here in South Africa the wave of anti-immigrant feeling that led to the loss of more than 60 lives in 2008 and again more lives in another outbreak of xenophobia in the course of this year. The questions that we'll discuss, how to protect the human rights of migrants, how and should their movement be regulated and the key issue of addressing the economic, social and political differences between states that many argue are a major factor in movement. Well, let me introduce the panel on my right, Jeff Kaderbi, the Minister in the Presidency of South Africa. Khaled Koza is the Executive Director of the Global Community Engagement and Resilience Fund based in Switzerland. To my left I have Anne Bernstein, Executive Director of the Centre for Development and Enterprise here in South Africa. And then Eric Charas, Founder and Managing Director, a Mozambican entrepreneur. I think we could describe you as Eric. Let's begin with Jeff Kaderbi. Back in 1994 you were part of a new democratic government that discussed intensely the issue of migration, whether it should be easier for those on the continent to come into this country or more difficult reasons for this. Well, there was a lot of gratitude to other parts of the continent for the role that African countries played in South Africa's liberation. But also some were arguing very strongly that there was an economic determinant to it, that South Africa's economy would improve should there be a greater utilization of skills and abilities of others in the continent. What did your government decide then? And do you think it was the right thing to do now? Yeah, thanks, Mike. I think the first point to be emphasized is that South Africa is a constitutional democracy. Everything we do emanates from our own constitution. And as a country we have got a very good history in working with people from around the world. You will remember that the struggle for freedom in our country could not have been won without the solidarity and the active support of countries and people around the world, in particular our African brothers and sisters. So that is why our migration policies when we came in in 1994 are very progressive. We are a very multicultural society embracing foreigners in our country. So everything that we do needs to be taken back into account. But also to, I think we need to also to understand that the global migration patterns indicates that the majority of people who migrate, they move from the South to the North, about 40% do that. And others moving from North to North, about 22%. And also a tiny majority of 5% from the North to the South. So that indicates that the issue of migration in South Africa because South Africa together with Nigeria, Algeria, Egypt is one of the recipients of many migrants from other countries to those countries, including ours here in South Africa. So that's where we are at the present moment in time. The point that I want to emphasize that we are a multi-cultural society. We have always embraced foreigners. We've got people historical who come, fortune hunters coming to South Africa looking for opportunities. Our mining industry, which the column of South Africa could not have been where it is today without the mining sector. So people came from all over South Africa. The last point I want to make to emphasize the broadness of our policies in so far as migration is concerned. When the ruling party, the ANC was formed in 1912, it was a pen-Africanist organization, not formed by South Africans, but people from all Southern Africa. Even the national anthem of South Africa doesn't talk about God save South Africa. God save Africa indicating that pen-Africanist approach, that internationalist approach. So it is a pity what has happened in the past few weeks is brought onto that type of tradition. Let me go to Ann Bernstein on this particular issue, the issue of xenophobia, the incidents that we've seen of migrants being attacked by local workers. Is this a reflection of a failure of government migration policy? Look, migration policy is difficult in any country, and I think one needs to recognize that. I think South Africa has struggled to manage this issue both at the skilled levels of migration and the unskilled levels. In 2008, when as you mentioned some 60 people probably more died, it's important to note two things. The one is that we called for a commission of inquiry so that South Africans could know exactly what happened and what are the lessons we can learn from this. This didn't occur in 2015. The president of South Africa said we didn't learn the lessons of 2008, and we're again calling for a commission of inquiry so that we can unpack the many issues that are involved because we don't actually know what was the role of government policy, what was the role of some rather unfortunate statements by very senior people in our society, both in the cabinet and outside, what was the role of policing, what was the role of criminality, et cetera, et cetera, and so I think it's important before we say, oh, this can all be explained by xenophobia. It's much more complex in that. Yes, there was an anti-foreigner sentiment, and this resulted in violence and murder, but this is much more complex, and so I think before we jump to two easy conclusions, we need to learn the lessons of 2015, and one way of doing this is a speedy, effective judicial commission of inquiry. Well, Eric Charis, your view of the xenophobia that we have seen in South Africa, the manifestation of it, what do you think lies behind those very strong attitudes among some in the population? Well, thank you. I think especially being Mozambican and quoting something I read that says, you know, the face of xenophobia in South Africa is Mozambican, unfortunately. In the two peak events that we've seen coming, it's been two Mozambicans. One was burned to death, and the other was stabbed to death, right? So there's this really anti, or we're sitting in Mozambique feeling that there's an anti-Mozambican feeling occurring in South Africa. So it comes down at least from where I'm standing and most of the Mozambican society, that this is a human emotion. This is just, it's not about policy, it's about somebody or some country that could be one with us. I mean, in historical past, if we remove the fence and all that, but it just doesn't like us as Mozambicans. And it keeps chasing from way back then until now, and there's terms for Mozambicans in South Africa that are not wanted, which is, you know, the Macquarie queries and things like that. And it's coming all out now, as in why. I'll give you a very short example. And I think President Zuma is doing his best to heal that, but it goes beyond him. I mean, he did this trip to come and apologize to Mozambique and say what it is. But the feeling and what I went through Mozambican media was President Zuma is there, but the rest of the country in South Africa is still chasing Mozambicans in the streets of Johannesburg. And we call it foreigner policies or things like that, but they're not chasing Australians. So you put a racial issue there. I mean, you don't see white people being stopped in the street and asked for papers, you know, but you see the ones that look like Somalis and the ones that look most of them, most of the people are black, they've been stopped. You don't see wealthy people from Russia or something like that. They drive great cars being stopped in roadblocks, you know, and you have them here and some of them probably with some dodgy status and that's not happening. So it's becoming very, very, very localized. And I agree with what's been said here that, you know, it's going to happen again because you're not looking at it from a perspective of wanting to change. In fact, one interesting thing is that while the political debate was going on, while the government was doing the diplomacy part and apologizing and talking, it seemed like it was an interesting distraction because you were still kicking out the 1000 Mozambicans out while all the conversations are going. There was no stop, there was no intervention in saying, you know, if you are killing people, this is a crime in South Africa, let's stop. So it was almost like, let's use this moment to get rid of as much McQuirkery as you can. Khaled Khosa, I mean, if I can come to you on this, I mean, a key issue, as we mentioned at the beginning is those push and pull factors. One of the determinants for migration within the continent and beyond the continent is poor economic conditions in the place in which people live in Mozambique, for example, coming into South Africa to seek for work. I mean, how important is these economic factors, the disparity in economies on the continent and what role do they play in creating migration? Thank you. We often think about what we call the 3Ds. Disparities in development clearly are important. I think disparities in demography are important. We have people leaving crowded, overcrowded places where they can't find jobs and so on and so forth and clearly disparities in democracy as well. Those 3Ds I think are important push factors and largely explain why people are moving between some countries and moving to other countries. Disparities in democracy. Democracy, development, demography. They're the three big drivers, I think. Now, of course, it's not quite as simple as a push-pull factor. There's more going on. There are networks in play. There are migrant smugglers who make money out of these movements as well. But I think largely global migration patterns can be explained by these big disparities. To come back to what Mr. Alaby was saying, I think the largest growing proportion of migration in the world today is between countries of the South. The old pattern of people moving from the South to the North is slowly dwindling. More and more people are moving between countries in the South, driven by these sorts of disparities. Now, South Africa has a migration policy. Many countries in Africa don't. And I think many countries in Africa are not prepared for this growth in migration that's taking place between them. And if I can also comment on the other discussion we just had now about the xenophobic violence here in South Africa, to put this in a wider context, and I think we should put South Africa in a wider context, increasingly in the world today we have migrants finding themselves in crisis situations, whether it's caught up in conflict in Libya, whether it's caught up in natural disasters in Southeast Asia. And I think part of the challenge here is we don't have an international legal framework to protect the rights of migrants. It's still a rather scattered framework. It's not centered anywhere. There's not a UN organisation specifically responsible for them. So I think there's a lack of international governance that's also a challenge here as well. Well, I'm going to pick up on a couple of those points in a little while. But, Eric, I want to come to you as an example of perhaps what can be done. I mean, you, for example, run a micro-loan business within Mozambique, making loans to young entrepreneurs as part of a way to improve the local economy and as part of a way to stop people from having to leave where they are. True, but it's, and contextualising what I said before, this issue of xenophobia not liking or the economic as being explained here, it's not just South Africa. It just happened that it was shown what happens in South Africa. We have the same problem in Mozambique. You know, I mean, part of trying to push Mozambican entrepreneurs to delve into being certified reliable suppliers so they can have an incomes and all that comes exactly down to the same thing that happens in South Africa. You end up having Mozambican saying, why do we have the Indians now doing the job? I mean, this discrimination occurs everywhere. We are now having issues in Mozambique because of these Somalis who are opening up shops. And, you know, the moment we start discriminating, we will find any excuse. I'm still waiting to see discrimination against muscular people like me or something, but it's bound to go there. And, of course, difficulty drives us there, right? But if you sit from a perspective of either a business leader or a government, you have to think on how can this be turned, of course, solving the economic difficulty which drives people to move for better solutions, but seeing it form an opportunity. I've been seeing and talking here with some people from Namibia and they're saying we drive a, we want to turn Namibia into a consumer economy. And I'm thinking, but your population is really small. How are we actually going to do that? And say, well, we're changing policies to attract people. So, you know, it got me thinking that there's really cool, great examples out there that, like, Dubai's and things like that, that are really positive, that have to turn into attracting not only talent, but people that can drive the economy and then spend on it, you know? And, less and less, we have examples of the threat to national sovereignty because of migrations. I mean, right now we have that happening in Europe. They just feel threatened that all Africa is going to go there. I don't want to go there. People are going there for an opportunity and the families are remaining here. So it becomes an economic opportunity. That's why you travel. But here, we're not looking at that. You know, we're not, as governments, we're not saying how will we attract the best talent, but better. How will we attract people? How will we populate? How will we provide economic spaces so that whoever wants to work, regardless of whether you're muscular, fat, thin, white, black, you can just become an active element on the economy because we're seeing that becomes the driver. We actually still thinking, we fought. We need to, you know, have the spoils of this fight. And it's ours. It's our land. It's very proprietary. I'd like to dispute the over-exaggeration of what Eric is saying, that South Africans are out to eliminate Mozambicans. If that were true, why on earth is Mrs. Grasa-Mashel still in South Africa? Mozambicans, how do you distinguish between the Mozambican and the South Africans? Totally impossible. Let's take this tragic event that happened in Alexander, Mr. Sital. This was a robbery where some criminals in Alexander robbed this man, known as Sital. It only transpired later that actually it's not Sital, but a person from Mozambique. So I want really to dispute that fact. The Mozambicans are making a very valid contribution into South Africa. There is no one in South Africa who's hunting Mozambican to drive them away. Even looking at this xenophobic violence that took place in South Africa in March, seven people died, three of them were South Africans. That's why I want to agree with him that the reasons that people come, especially in South Africa, is the conditions where they come from. Maybe they're running away from political instability in other countries, also economic conditions. The reason why this issue has now come to the fore is that the majority of those migrants are very unskilled and even unskilled people. So they tend to stay in villages, in townships and informal settlements where they are competing for the same jobs as poor and unemployed South Africans. Look at how the spark came in Deben. It was a labor dispute where South Africans were fired by a company. So that employer then employed non-South Africans at lower wages. So that's what sparked it, not that people in Deben just moved out hunting for foreign aid. So the issue of competing for those low-skilled jobs, because as you know, even though we've made strides in South Africa, but still we have a major challenge of unemployment, poverty and inequality. Here we have another issue that I'd like to bring to you Ann Bernstein. We're talking about the competition for jobs within areas. Here there's an unemployment rate of about 25% which has been pretty permanent. There is a shortage of jobs within a country like this. But to what extent is xenophobia a product of that shortage of jobs which is points to a failure within the country's economy? Look, there are a lot of issues going on here. I firstly agree with the minister entirely that South Africans are not hunting down Mozambicans. The vast majority of migrants in South Africa are Zimbabwean. This is a very complex issue and I think to put it the way you have is to really distort reality. What you have is that a lot of migrants are in poor communities and South Africa is struggling because of our policies, frankly, to get higher and faster growth and much more important labor-intensive growth. So what's happening is in poor communities they're often dealing with the brunt of the immigration from the rest of the continent of unskilled, semi-skilled people. That's one issue that's going on. But I think you have to put economic growth and South Africa's desperate need for skilled migrants at the heart of the issue. If we're going to get the kind of growth we need, we need far more skilled people than we have. We have a massive shortage even in this very low growth scenario of, let's say, 500 to 800,000 people. And we need to be less ambiguous in our policies and much more enthusiastic about going out and getting more skilled migrants to help grow South Africa. In terms of the kind of people who are struggling for jobs and young people who are coming out of a very bad education system, which should change, we need to have more labor-intensive manufacturing. Now, some 86 million manufacturing jobs are gonna move out of China. They're already starting to move. If South Africa were to change its policies, we would be able to get some of those jobs or at least have a shot at two to three million. This would dramatically change the prospects for many young men who have no prospects at all. They're not skilled enough for the jobs the economy is offering. The country's not growing sufficiently. We're actually retrenching people. And I think to say, well, all these people can be entrepreneurs. This is nonsense. The minority of the population are going to be entrepreneurs. And actually if you're dealing with the pressures of migration from the surrounding countries, the truth is that the international experience shows that in the very long term, the development of our neighbors would help deal with the migration pressures. But in the short to medium term, even if you give them aid or a whole lot of development will encourage more people to move. They will have more money. They will have higher aspirations. So we need to look at this issue in a much more realistic way. And of course the violence that happened and the human rights of people that were undermined and people died is terrible. It's a human tragedy. But I think you have to also think about the rights of countries. And countries have a right to control their own borders. And that's where you have to manage migration policy which is difficult. You can't have completely porous borders and you can't create fortress South Africa. It's too expensive and it's impossible. And we don't want it. We need foreign skills and we need to think much more constructively and our policies need to get a lot better. It's a very delicate balancing act, Kelly. But Khaled Khosa in the last few days as South African President, Jacob Zuma, has mentioned a very important factor that over the next year there will be 18 million new jobs needed on the continent as a whole to encompass those newly entering the labor force. Now, that's a massive figure. What we are talking about here in South Africa, this applies to much of the continent, does it not, to the issue of creating something to keep people at home and gainfully employed within their own areas? Absolutely. It's an enormous challenge. The demographic challenge that the African continent and you can't generalise it varies across countries. But on the whole, the demographic challenge that the African continent is facing, I think, is the big challenge, frankly. I would put it before climate change, before terrorism. I think this is a really huge challenge. We are talking about large numbers of young people entering a labor market where there isn't work for them to do. And we know what happens when you have large numbers of young people who feel disenfranchised, who feel marginalised, who don't have something to do, then there's the risk of violence, conflicts, so on and so forth. So this is an enormous challenge. And it's one of the reasons why people are taking the desperate measures of getting in boats and trying to move to Europe, because they know that they can find work in Europe. Europe is in almost exactly the opposite situation. We don't have enough people. We're not having enough babies. We need to bring in migrants to fall some of those gaps. Now, of course, the problem is that we can't provide enough jobs for the very large numbers of people in Africa, but certainly that disparity is part of what's taking place here. I think we need to find an African solution to this challenge, because South Africa, we cannot solve this problem on our own. Because we need to ask the question, why are we having so many migrants in South Africa? About 6 million. These are not official statistics. It's estimated that about 6 million migrants in South Africa, which is about 10% of the population. So why are they coming all the way from Malia, South Sudan, and so on to South Africa? So I think this program, this Agenda 2063, also has a solution, part of the solution that we need to look at. The infrastructure programs to open our borders through infrastructure development on roads, rail, and so on, so that we can be able to create opportunities in all of Africa so that we can be able to have a vibrant economy in our continent. Well, I think that's a key point. If we can, at this issue, at this point, if we could just actually, we'll come back to that afterwards, throw the situation open to the floor. We've had very, very strong arguments being made in terms of the importance of economies as a cause of migration. We've heard clearly the need for Africa itself to start recognizing the issues, the need for some kind of regulatory body to help protect the human rights of migrants. Well, let's open up the questions to the floor. If I can ask you to keep them as close as possible so we can get as many as possible, please. Who would like to start? Well, sorry, there we are. Thank you. Okay, good morning. My name is Victor Chen. I'm from Uganda. I work with young people in Uganda and across the continent. One concern that came was the potential escalation which the xenophobic attack had in South Africa that could affect the entire sub-Saharan Africa because we reached a point where even Ugandans in South Sudan started being attacked. South Sudan is in Uganda, the same thing. Kenyan government making a decision to say we are kicking out all the refugees from Kenya because of the security and all that. So the whole concern was about what started in South Africa had the potential to escalate across the continent because reached a point where people were saying, okay, let's attack South African business across the continent. And I think I like so much when they say South Africa's issue is not South Africa. It's an African problem. And then how do we look at a possibility of renewing our effort, our identity? When someone asks me, are you South African? I'm not South African, I'm African. That's the point. Well, let me go to Eric Cheras. I saw you nodding in agreement with that particular point. I mean, what's your feeling? Is there the danger that what happens in South Africa can actually manifest itself in other parts of the continent? It's human emotions. We saw reciprocity starting to take place in Mozambique. I mean, the moment these news came from here and people started remembering Mido Masiya being tied up at the back of a police van and dying and things like that, Sassel had to pull out their workers for an extended weekend and week leave out of Mozambique of fear because Mozambican peers started saying, you know, you should leave and it started becoming aggressive. I think our government just went in. I mean, they have a very deterrent police and made sure that these things wouldn't happen. The main road that links Mozambique and South Africa, cars that had South African license plates were being stopped in stone. So it's a human emotion. You can't control this level of reaction and things like that. And having said that, I agreed with Ocean. The real problem is youth. Youth is at this stage is not looking at politics. Youth is looking at solving their problems here and now. And this is what the leadership that's sitting out there very comfortably talking and discussing the origins, whether we're chasing, it doesn't matter, Mr. Minister. If they're chasing Mozambicans, it's not. It's the perception. And this youth is starting to have this perception. I think that issue of perception, that we're not looking at politics necessarily. We are looking at very personal perception. I want to talk about realism. I am very nervous when people talk about, this is an African solution. After all, this is a continent of 54 countries, a quarter of the world's landmass, and over 2,000 languages. I'm much more concerned in this instance about thinking through very carefully what South Africa's policy should be. And we need to move away from generalities because you have to distinguish between refugee policy. I think we're struggling to deal with this. We have a capacity problem. We have some 250,000 people at any one time waiting to know their status. This is complicated. You've got to distinguish between the refugee situation and what our policy should be. Because however much we want the development of other countries in Africa, this will take considerable time to have an impact on migration issues. So yes, I'm in favor of it. But let's be realistic. This is not going to sort the issue out quickly. The second part of this is we need to be realistic and make sure that our own migration policy, economic migrants who come to South Africa, we need to be clear how we're going to manage this. And we have to distinguish between different kinds of migrants and how we're going to deal with this so that we don't have this terrible situation which has economic consequences and human consequences throughout the continent. So I think you've got to be a lot more realistic about South Africa's migration policy. And that's important because we're the richest country in sub-Saharan Africa. So the sense we're the fount of all of this. And we need to have a much better policy. We need to get our act together because the consequences, as we've seen, are terrible for South Africans and for the people who live in our country under our Constitution and then have much wider ramifications. So it's a really serious issue. And we need to manage migration in all its dimensions much more effectively. And we cannot be ambiguous. The government and various parts of the society cannot be making ambiguous statements. So now I have to take it very on that particular point. I think you're the person to answer that. Let's say we need to be realistic. And to be realistic is to know the facts. We need to find an African solution. It's very significant that after these xenophobic attacks in South Africa, the president, President Zuma, organized a meeting with all stakeholders from within South Africa, churches, business people, organs of civil society, and also had a separate meeting with organizations that represent foreign nationals in our country. This was in March. They told the president that, for example, in the Great Lakes region, they said that they are moves by countries there to extend the terms of office of heads of state. And that when that happens, people are going to move from those countries to other countries. And as sure as sun rises from the east, it happened. There are more than 100,000 people who have fled Burundi, as we speak. That's why I agree with the colleague from Uganda. We need to find an African solution. If there is no political stability in the continent, people, obviously, are going to move out. If there is no economic development in those countries, people are going to move out to look for opportunities. So this continental framework is of paramount importance, even regions. That was made there. That is why I want to. But the point that was made there, that there needs to be an example set by South Africa in terms of creating a coherent, layered, and structured migrant policy. That's why the president has appointed an inter-ministeral committee on migration, which I'm chairing in order to look at all the issues around migration to come up with a new migration policy, take into account what we have seen, and also to learn lessons from other countries so that we come up with a migration policy that will be able to address all these challenges that we are facing. We are working very hard and interacting as I've said with stakeholders, even foreign nationals in South Africa who need to make an input into this process. Well, let's just see if there are any further questions from the audience over here. Thank you. I think, first and foremost, I'd like to actually commend the South African government. I think they've really given this particular issue the seriousness that it deserves. If you look at the level of ministerial involvement, stakeholder involvement, but also I travel a lot across Africa. And what I do get a lot of is actually two things. One, for instance, in Nigeria, you get a lot of Nigerians saying, this is not a South African problem. It's a problem for all these countries because these people move to South Africa because of a reason. And those countries need to sit and say, how do we come to the party to solve this? And the second part of it is that I hear a lot of our brothers and sisters from across Africa pointing to the problem. I think we need to move away from that. I think we know there's a problem. But what are the solutions? I think my brother from Mozambique here, if he can actually share with us, what does he think are some of the things that South Africa and Mozambique need to actually be doing to address this problem? Because it's not just a South Africa problem. Well, let's go to you on that, Khalid. I just wanted to come back on realism. I think you're right, Anne, to put that on the table. It's heartening to hear that the South African government is taking this seriously in terms of a migration policy. But in pursuing this notion of realism, I think we shouldn't underestimate the challenges of getting this migration policy right. Migration policy is difficult to do. You mentioned 250,000 asylum seekers. That's more than the entire European Union receives per year. The European Union is finding it hard to deal with asylum. And you're talking about 250,000 in a relatively poor country, South Africa. Irregular migration, one third of the world's irregular migrants are in the United States of America. If the US can't sort it out, don't be surprised it's a challenge for a country like South Africa. And we spoke about talent earlier. There's clearly a global competition for talent. Talented migrants have a disproportionate effect on economic growth. They are innovators. They bring in huge amounts of potential. And I think South Africa is losing in that competition as well. So the realist, you're right, we need a policy. And it's good that the government is taking it seriously. But these are very big challenges to get right in terms of policy. I think we shouldn't underestimate those challenges. Eric, Chair, the question there, what can Mozambique and South Africa do to set an example or to actually alleviate the issue? Well, moving out completely, it's not a Mozambique-South Africa problem. It's an African real problem. And in fact, it becomes a global problem. But if you want to focus on a continental perspective, because this is what's happening, I mean, Angola has the same problem, Nigeria has the same problem. People are moving from where they can. So I think we really need to move it up to the level of African Union. And I mean, I'm a young person. I speak my mind when I think. And this 2063 agenda, whoever is dealing with it, it's an acceptance of defeat. If you sit with a young person and you say, you know, we're looking at 2063, I mean, seriously, you know? But it doesn't represent a young solution. No, but so you lead back to the question there, which is a problem. And one of the problems we need to look at, we are sitting with a young continent with a very old leadership. And this old leadership was very brave. We thanked them, liberated the continent, did amazing things. But now it's old. It's accommodated. It's not taking risks. And this country, to leapfrog, needs to take risks. It needs to find an African solution that hasn't been found anywhere else. And it's not going to be with an old leadership. Innovation is not coming through that, not with 90-year-old presidents, not with an African Union that's thinking 2063 could be 2250. It doesn't solve our problem. But Eric, maybe Eric, you can learn from a Chinese experience. The Chinese say a journey of 1,000 miles begin with the first step. We cannot reach 1,000 2063 if you cannot implement now in 2050. But we should be looking at the list of tier problems from the beginning. Finish up my point here. We should be learning with the Chinese. The Chinese are fixing their problem as they occur today. They're not telling their youth, your job is going to come in 100 years. They are taking the inputs from the youth right now, and they're just not sitting. Young Chinese leaders in the Politburo. No, it doesn't matter about the leaders. The young people are getting the jobs. The manufacturing is happening there. Look, I think you've got to unpack. I started this by saying, oh, many countries struggle with migration policy, and it's a very difficult issue. So you have to start with that. You've then got to unpack it. Yes, I'm in favor of developing other African countries. This is great. This requires reform, which we're seeing in at least 17 countries that have been growing at impressive rates. And the more, the better. Now, the first issue is unskilled migration is generally it's a sign of failure. Their country has failed to deliver growth and opportunities, and people then move. Most people don't really want to move. Once you've got skills, a lot of people want to move for new opportunities and different kinds of jobs. So you have to distinguish between very broadly unskilled and skilled migrants. So obviously, I'm in favor of African countries developing themselves. And the minister's absolutely right that democracy is a key part of this. And if countries go the autocratic route, we're going to see the consequences of that. Agreed. But you have to look at skills are not moving. One of the main problems you have now is talent. Academics cannot move without Africa. No, the South African. An academic that's leading a research in Burundi, he can't just get on a plane and land in South Africa to talk with his peers. And this would benefit the continent. Well, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying South Africa needs to fix its skilled migration that we've come back to the issue of the African solution. But I don't think it's a, you can't park everything there. If you say, if you cannot develop those countries, we're not going to be able to solve this problem. So I agree 100% with you. But you need a short-term strategy and a medium-term strategy. I'm in favor of the development of African countries. Look at NAFTA. NAFTA was the idea to deal with the migration across the Mexican border. They signed a massive trade agreement. Mexico starts to develop manufacturing and trade and it's fabulous. But does this stop migration across the border? No. In fact, it increased often after it was signed. So you've got to do both. And you have to have a short-term strategy, which is where I think South Africa has to really get its act together. And you have to have a medium-term strategy. But to think that, I agree. You need to deal with governments. You need to promote democracy and good governance. I'm in favor of all of that. But the fact is that at the moment, South Africa, even though we're not growing at the rate we need, we're much more attractive as a place for opportunity than almost all of sub-Saharan Africa. Well, let's just take another question, if I may, over here. Yes, Linda Ensor. I'd just like to throw in the question of social values and relative deprivation as a contribution to the mix towards a violent response. Because there might be other countries which are suffering from migration and influx of people. But the local population don't respond in such a violent way. So what does, I mean, government non-delivery of services, poverty, and the breakdown of the institutional fabric of society, what contribution does that make to the way people respond to the migration? Well, Khaled Khosa, I mean, that particular point about this being a consequence of some form of failure in governance. It is. And I think we, again, I'm keen to put South Africa in a wider context. It's a country with challenges, but so is the rest of the world facing migration challenges as well. And we certainly have xenophobic violence in Europe at the moment as well, perhaps not as extreme as 60 or more people dying. But certainly there are attacks on Muslim populations at the moment in many European countries that need to be dealt with. I think the risk, and I think the questioner is right, you've got to have government that sets the right standards and that sets the right model. And the risk we have in Europe, and I sense the risk in South Africa, is that we are securitising migration. We are beginning to portray it as a security threat. It's threatening our national security, it's threatening employment, and so on and so forth. The problem with securitising migration is that you then begin to legitimise extraordinary responses. If it's a security issue, then we can legitimise doing some quite extraordinary things to try to deal with this national security threat. And I think it's very important indeed that we don't, we try not to portray migration in those terms. Let's see it as economic, let's talk about development, but let's move away from this idea that there's a security threat out there. That's very important. Well, we've got time for one more question. There was a gentleman in the back who said his... Maybe I can just respond to that. Sorry, yes? I like that question. I think to be fair, in South Africa, we come from a history of a violence of the system of apartheid. We've seen how people have been responding in fighting against the system of apartheid, where, when all doors were shut, people found that the only solution is to use violence. So that has permeated even into this new democratic society. So that's why I think as a South African nation, we need to look at ourselves, as the President said, during the Freedom Day on the April 27th, that as South Africans, we need to look at ourselves at how what needs to be done in order to heal this psychological devastation caused by the system of apartheid. On the second point, we're not secretizing the issue on migration. That is why the President has appointed this interministerial team in order to look at all aspects of migration, not only security matters, but also what is the underlying social, economic impact of this particular situation. So I want to assure you that that is not the case. Let's take the question over there. Let's just get the question and then I'll come to you. My name is Veelim Tiana from SAPC. My question is very short. I would like to know what are pragmatic solutions that African leaders have tabled in the platforms like Pan-African Parliament, as well as the AU to address the issue of, should I say, migration, as well as economic and political, as well as population, push factors. Because I think at the center of what we see, what we've seen happening in South Africa, has been the issue of what, as far back as 2013, United Nations issued a statement that said youth unemployment in youth in Africa is a ticking time bomb. Haven't we realized that perhaps that bomb has started to explode, bit by bit? What pragmatic solutions are we having because the issues with youth and unemployment? Recently, there's been a call that Africa needs more investment because youth can only absorb and be kept active in employment. What are pragmatic solutions that African leaders, South Africa, can do so much. But what the continent combined can do altogether because it's easy to blame. South Africa, it's easy to say this is not done properly. Perhaps it's the history. But what about the rest of the continent because South Africa has done, I believe, what it can. But African leaders must stand up and say, this is what we're doing to improve the well-being of the population. Let me put that. Thank you very much. Let me put that to you, Ann Bernstein. Well, let me, I want to respond to Linda Enswell's question because I think it's an important one. Now, why Soweto broke out into violence and destruction in January is we don't have a trigger that we know of, which is different from the March events where the minister mentioned the trigger of the one factory. So that's partly why I'm saying two things. The one is I think we are seeing a very brittle situation in poorer communities. And that's a result of bad education and lack of employment opportunities. And probably we don't know. That's why we would like a commission of inquiry. Probably also a lack of hope in terms of how do I get ahead here? So I think there are a whole lot of factors. In January, there was certainly an issue of policing that came to the fore. And I think we don't know enough. And your question is an important one, but we can't really answer it until we have something like a commission of inquiry, which is independent. It's not within government, but it's independent. It's as objective as possible. We can hear what people themselves have to say, as well as the many different institutions. So I think that's a really vital issue if we're not again to have the president of South Africa saying, we didn't learn the lessons from 2008. I don't want us to be in that situation in a few years time to say we didn't learn the lessons of 2015. So I think that's vital. I think the question about Africa as a whole, youth unemployment is absolutely central to how we deal with this phenomenon. And that means you have to talk about how do we get much higher growth and how do we get more labor-intensive growth? Because you can have the one without the other. And that requires the kind of bold reforms that are happening in a number of African countries. Needs to happen in more countries. And you need to look at South Africa as well in terms of how we're going to have much more labor-intensive growth. So I think at the root of all of this is higher growth, employment, and skills. And you've got to place the migration discussion in that context if you want to move forward. Well, I just want to add here that it's a very valid point that it's making. We are increasingly becoming a youthful society, not only in South Africa, but in Africa as a whole. With the increase in population, there's an estimation that by 2050, there'll be about 2 billion people in Africa. And the majority of them will be young people. So we need to give young people hope. And the hope we can give is education and skills development, and also to not to focus on all those better developed countries like Nigeria, Algeria, Egypt, and South Africa. So all this thing must be done at a continental level in order to deal with the underlying issues that affect the youth of countries. The last point, I'm not aware of what is happening at the AU level, but I do know that at the last head of state, the Sadexamic in Harare, this issue was raised that countries now need to begin to realize that South Africa cannot be like a labor reservoir for all countries that come to South Africa. As I've said, the statistics are very staggering. The number of people who are coming to South Africa looking for jobs, many of them semi-skilled and low-skilled workers, then fighting for these resources that are very small in our countries. So hope is on education and skills development so that we can be able to ensure that the youth of our continent should not only be job seekers, but also to be job creators. You mentioned there the importance of seeing it on a continental level as well as a national one. But Achalit Kosa, to take that even further, let's introduce an example. For example, Libya, providing a large number of would-be migrants in the most dangerous circumstances to Europe. Yet the migration, there's a consequence of conflict, partially, which involved European parties, outside parties. Is there a responsibility to see through the consequences of that conflict? Is there a responsibility for those who helped affect the regime change in Libya, for example, to actually make good the situation in the country now? Well, in my opinion, yes, but I think we all know that the consequences aren't often planned for I think now military strategy is beginning to think through displacement consequences, migration consequences of things like the intervention in Libya, which I think was a flawed intervention and perhaps not justified. But yes, of course, conflict intervention will have displacement migration implications. There's a responsibility to protect, this is a concept that we talk about a lot, that we as an international community have the responsibility to protect people against, for example, a threat of genocide or a threat of large-scale human rights abuse. I think that should extend to people who are affected by these conflicts, to asylum seekers, to refugees, to people displaced to migrants who may not be refugees, but still are being displaced by these sorts of things. But frankly, I don't think the international community is taking that responsibility seriously at the moment. Well, I mean, Eric Charas, I mean, that issue of the human rights of migrants, of would-be migrants, I mean, this is something that has to be looked at on an international basis, perhaps. Just going back again, I'm not at this opportunity. Rwanda opened up visas for everybody at arrival and I recall President Kagami at the forum here saying, you know what, all these things on security and things came to the table and he said, you know, if you're gonna have a smuggler, a terrorist or things like that, they will get in any way. By imposing these high-restricted visa policies and things like that, we're just hurting the good guys. So at the end of the day, they've opened and not many other countries have done and so this free flow is becoming a real problem. Sadly, a lot of us young people, when we get to power and we will get to power, we'll be old, right? So we will still also have old ideas, old mentalities. We won't be able to chase. So I think we need to find a way to put us out there right now. I mean, we're looking at this like, if everybody that is poor in Africa wants to move from where they are to a great country like South Africa or Nigeria, it's not. I mean, we don't move, people don't wanna go there just because they are absolutely poor. It's a question of opportunity. I mean, if you get somebody that can code, he doesn't want to sit in a place like, I don't know, Burundi. Of course, he would love to come and live in Cape Town. He's not gonna take a job from a Cape Tonian or a South African. He just wants to be here because the internet is great. There's some sense of peace and security and he will develop. I mean, you are starting to look, we went to see a brilliant project in Langa where ex-convicts are starting to learn how to code and most of them are young. And of course, some of the legal people who were there, a Mozambican shows up, you know? And a Mozambican says, I'm here learning how to code because I grew up in South Africa. I had some refugee status. I went to school and now they've canceled all our permits and I have to go back to Mozambique but this is where I'm at. This is where the opportunities are. I'm afraid that we've now come to an end of this discussion. My thanks to our guests, Jeb Khedabi and Bernstein, Eric Charras and of course Khalid Khosa. Thank you all for joining us. And remember in the midst of this too, that there can be opportunity in a continent that has more than 3,000 ethnic groups, speaks as we heard, more than 2,000 languages. Perhaps there is opportunity in this glorious diversity. Thank you for joining us.