 Hello everybody to our session today on the state of open source software in Germany 2021. Good morning, good afternoon and good evening wherever you join us from the globe. I hope you are doing well. My name is Marcel Scholzer. I'm director at PWC and I'm head of our open source software services. And today I'm here with my colleague Julian who will introduce himself now. Hi, my name is Julian and I am a manager for open source software management services at PWC as well. And I would like to introduce PWC for a second and give you some some quick glance on why we are so involved in open source. Now, PWC is historically an audit firm that we are more involved in making sure that risks are appropriately managed. And of course, open source has some inherent risks. Think of managing using open source with complete disregard to the licenses. But we realize that there are even more risks in not using open source because open source is everywhere. It's the foundation to to share and collaborate and to have more innovative products. And in this mindset, we want to enable a digital open source future by providing managed services. For instance, with our OSPERS service, we want to take the cumbersome work of the OSPERS, especially in compliance areas and security. In consulting we want to take, I want to help you enable open source usage and get a good strategy on the road. And of course reduce risks by audit and certification and get some more understanding into your suppliers and their use in open source. So we first want to introduce you to the design of the study so as you know where the data comes from and that you can put this into context. So the monitor was performed now the second time by the Bitcoin. Bitcoin is the German's digital association and is representing companies of the digital economy. We first did the study in 2019 and now in 2021 with almost the same questions that we performed the study again and target group is the German market. Interviews were performed between May and July 2021 via telephone. And in total more than 1150 organizations here in Germany were interviewed, company size bigger 20 employees. And also this time the first year we also interviewed over 100 public administration organizations. The study was as I said performed by the Bitcoin and was sponsored and supported by many big companies and associations here in Germany, one of them being PWC. And I believe it's so important that we have some changes here now. We added smaller companies from 20 to 100 employees, which we believe is just a great market for open source. And we added the public administration and we'll get to this at the end of the talk. And I believe it's just very important to see where they are currently at because they have quite different challenges than the industry. But we see that they are still very interested in open source. Exactly. So thank you. Now on the next slide we'll focus on the industry outcome from the industry and then at the end of the presentation we'll look into the details what public services that respond to our questions. So let's start with the industry and we've put together the best information from strategy usage, contribution, compliance, security, and questions on ISO 5230, so open chain compliance standard. And we're a bit excited today because this is the first time we are presenting these results to wider audience because this whole study was just published last Thursday. So it's brand new. It's just out now. Currently only available in German, but in the next days or weeks it will come out in English as well. So actually it's really exciting to present this today to all of you. So we start with the lightweight questions regarding the perception of open source and so general question was, what is your position of your company towards open source. And here you can see that actually quite quite a great figure of 67% and that they're interested in open mind towards open source. And 25% are undecided 7% only 7% are skeptical. And there's a small percentage 1% who have no opinion or did not respond. But this is, as I say, a great number in terms of open minded people towards open source. And when we now look at the numbers by company size so as Julian said we have different company sizes interviewed from 20 to 99 employees from 100 to 199 from 200 to 400 from 500 to almost 2000 and then large companies above 2000 employees. And so with some of the questions we'll show you know always some results in general and then specified for the different company sizes so that we can also see is there a difference between the size of the company or which results because of the size of the company. And here when you look at at this question, for example, there's only one slight higher number with 79% in the mid size companies 500 to 2000 employees who say with 79% that they are interested in open mind but in generally the numbers are quite equally quite quite quite the same across all company sizes I would say. So, but the question is, why are so many companies on board with open source so what are the big advantages, Julian, what do they say. Thank you. I mean the most obvious is still cost. By the way, we did this survey two years ago as Marcel mentioned, and costs actually was lower that time around I think it was around 90%. So now we still on a 24% cost increase in cost benefit for open source. But what I find astonishing is that openness is in at least in some more important than cost. And this is something we should focus on because companies don't really use open source anymore because it's cheaper. Yes, of course for 24%. This is like the most important factor. But even more of those are interested in the access to the source code. By the way, this one grew to buy 7% over the last year, the last two years. So just accessing the source code provides companies with way more security than, well, and it did before and just access to open stands standards and interoperability with 3% of all people asked is actually quite interesting. Still, of course, things like the vendor lock in with 8% quite important, although we all know that in open source, you can't always change the provider, but still for 8%, this is the most important aspect. And we're for aspects like IT security. I think it's interesting to see that this isn't a dominant factor anymore. I think there was a time when open source was regarded as very unsecured and we had a time where it was regarded as extremely secure. Right now, this is not the point anymore open source might be secure. But sometimes for some projects, it is regarded that way. But being open is way more important for many than the aspects of security that seem to arise from such a business model. But of course, yeah, we have some this. Oh, I just wanted to mention this point. So 14% said that there's no advantage of open source. So coming from these 14% which don't see any advantages of open source. Let's look into the disadvantages of open source which were mentioned. By the way, this was an open question. So, the responses were just categorized in this study, but generally we didn't provide any fixed answers. So the interviews were performed and the responses were open. So we're starting with asking about the disadvantages. So Julian, what is the outcome here? The disadvantage is you don't have enough people for it. That's the problem. Human resources is just up there with lack of skilled labor training opportunities and internal capabilities. That's the factor why people or why companies tend to not like open source. By the way, we have this is single answer only, right? We were not able to, we didn't want to give the top five reasons why open source is bad. We wanted the top reason. And seeing human resource as the single top reason why open source might be at a disadvantage. This is quite interesting, especially as it doesn't have to be this way, right? So there's different business models around open source, some emerging, some are very well known, where the availability of services and of software isn't really tied to your internal capabilities anymore. And this is something that just slowly making its way into the user of open source. And there are some other things like uncertainty, which is of course, especially considering open source as the free component that you don't have support for. Obviously, there's little liability. But again, this seems to be something that can be addressed with appropriate means. The interesting thing is that IT security is about as much a disadvantage as it is an advantage, according to our survey. So I believe this is this is again, this is the idea that open source can be more secure. It can be less secure. And this is what the survey showed at least 9% of all companies consider open source to be inherently less secure. That's the number that we have to face. And sometimes this might even be true. And the last one, the last group that I want to focus on is the offer. There's just not enough open source around. So if we take this and combine it with the human resource part of things, the major problem with open source is because because these two together over 50%. The major problem with open source is just not enough of it. Then after these introduction questions to open source, we came up with one important question about open source software strategy. So do you have an open source software strategy? All the companies were asked and these are here the results. Only 25% stated yes, they have an open source strategy in place and 72% said those as no open source software strategy. And again, perhaps this is not too bad because it's an overall question to the whole industry. We believe this number has to grow. Because strategy is very important to make use of all the benefits that open source can provide and also is important on the other end to manage risks that might occur due to open source. So the strategy is a starting point. And therefore, we have this strong feeling that the availability of strategy and to look from a strategic point in the company or in the IT sector of the company. How can I use open source best and what is the strategy for my overall company behind it is very important. And when we look here at the company sizes, what the individual company sizes did respond, we can actually see that larger companies above 2000 employees, they actually have open source policy or a strategy in place by 50% already. So there we can see larger companies already realized that it makes sense to look at open source from a strategic point and to implement the strategy first of all. Also, you've been consulting and involved with these strategies, not all of them, of course, but is this a new trend? Is this something that has come up just in the last year or is this a larger thing that actually more companies are currently adopting this and have been on the road for years? Good question. I mean, from my point of view, and what we've seen in the market is that, of course, open source is around there for 20, 30, 40 years, and it was used in the IT departments. It was used for many applications for software development and so on. So it is around already. But thinking about it strategically, as you mentioned before, for example, in terms of how to manage the HR topic, how to manage all the benefits and so on. This is rather newish, I would say. I mean, it also came up in over the last decade in terms of managing the risk of open source. We talk about an open source compliance management system. And then when you talk about in compliance management system or a general management system, management system should always have included a strategy because based on the strategy, policies, processes, tooling, et cetera, can be applied and aligned to the strategy. And therefore, I think it's rather newish. And as you can also see 2019 in our survey, it was a few percentage less who had an open source strategy in place. So it is a growing trend to implement an open source strategy. This is actually quite interesting. So what I'm hearing is that these new challenges that we have, right, the abundance of open source and still the lack of even more open or the problem that there's not enough open source. This leads to a new approach to open source, not with some smaller divisions doing open source the way they need to. But we start to focus it on to the larger strategies of the whole company to address problems that are to in a certain degree new, I believe. So of course, I mean, with with open source, you can drive your digitalization, you can drive leadership on the market in particular areas, you can set standards, you can attract talents and so on. And these are, I think, strategic question for a company for a product portfolio for a company's portfolio, where open source can have an important influence. Therefore, we suggest to think about it strategically and come up with an overall open source strategy that, of course, aligns to the company's strategy that makes sense, of course. This is a great one. Do you use open source? It's, this is, this is one of those questions that you just have to ask that you know the answer is going to be interesting in one way or another. So 71% of companies do not believe that they use open source. So this is unlikely, right. Open source in every mobile phone in literally every component, every software that you have will have some sort of open source in it. Even Microsoft Office has open source components. So it's unlikely that 26% managed to go without. But it actually, I believe this is more a question of mindset to consciously use open source, maybe for the reasons that it is open source. Or do you want to, are you, are you aware that open source plays a role in your supply chain at some point? I believe this is a great number. Again, 71% of companies are aware that open source has something to do, so to speak, with their daily lives on their business. And again, this is a representational study. 71% of all companies, now there are a lot of companies around. And most of them are not related to software. But still 71% are completely aware that open source is part of them. I believe this is great. Of course, should be 100. But let's not get ahead of ourselves. And we explained earlier in terms of the set of of the study is that this time we included companies with 20 employees and above. 2019, we only questions company with 100 employees and above. So therefore it's a bit tricky to make a comparison, but of course we have all the detailed numbers and figures. And when we compare this number here, actually, and look at the companies with 100 employees and above, actually 76% say they use open source. And this compared to 2019, it's an increase of 10%. So actually between 2019 and 2021, increased by 10%. So more and more companies realize or state that they use open source software. Again, a good trend, good trend in terms of realizing that they do use open source. And the question is now, which of the following statements are in which areas do they use open source. Julian, can we categorize this a bit or what is what is the main information here, how they use open source. Yes, so we can maybe group them a little bit if the first two are are you using open source without changing the source code with the first one focusing on internal usage and the second one on to products and solutions. And then we go into the next two bars, which change open source. So do you change open source for your internal products or for internal solutions or products. And I believe this is actually quite interesting this is multiple choice by the way. So of course, you can use components without changing them and you can change them, both as completely fine with us. Actually, with just one number that struck me was, was that 21% of all companies this is the bottom one are actually well aware that they use open source make changes to the source code within their products. So this is, I believe, a quite interesting number because right here we see that open source is such an important and vital part of their product development that they have to change the component itself to make what they wanted to do. And I just believe this is this is an incredible thing. Of course, 52% are well aware that they use open source within their company without changing source code. This is completely fine. Should it be 100. Well, again, representational study. I don't know. Many companies do. But don't leave out the last number was 8% which I think is quite interesting. So that's 8% of all companies actually use open source in their core products. This is, this is relevant. Absolutely. So often source did change from being such just a niche thing, right, to basically part of every product right from routers to cars these days, right. It just made its way onto the mainstream. It just seems low. I believe it's higher. I believe 8% to it consciously. It is going to be a higher number in reality. Okay, so we talked about open source strategy and about management systems before. And here's the next slide does show us interesting figures about management actually divided into company sizes. So the question was how many employees in your company focus fully on open source software management. So it's not about people who design products and to who produce products or who code or something who use open source software as part of their job. It's it's really about open source software management in terms of security and compliance license compliance. It's about policies to make open source work within the company. So it was explained it's about. Let's face it's the Ospo. So how many people do you have in your Ospo. That's actually the question. And when we look at the figures. The, the results or the answers were actually numbers of FTEs which were named. And when we look here. What's quite interesting is that one to five FTE so that's quite an amount of people one to five FTE who fully focus on open source software management are stated by many companies by 3961% 54% 49% And then in larger companies 30% of the companies say they have one to five FTE managing open source. And then when you look at larger companies 2000 employees and above. They actually with 46% state that they have more than five FTEs to to work on open source management. I mean of course we know the examples from large global organizations who have 20 or 30 people or more in the centralized center managing open source centralized Ospo with satellites and they do code checks and license compliance tasks and so on. But I mean these are global and large organizations, but when we when we talk about companies with 2000 employees and above. I think it's quite an impressive number that 46% says they have five or more people to manage open source. By the way, we have a different number, not from this monitor, but the to do group tends to do surveys on a yearly basis as well. And the to do group, those of you know, basically the links foundations Ospo network, I would call it. They ask, they have a survey where they, where they ask their members and other people to participate and given given estimate on how many people work in their own posts and they have a different number. Because it is going, it is vastly higher they have over 10 persons over five over 10 FTEs per company doing open source software management. And I just find this very very interesting because right this is a number for the to do group has a very good number for companies in the Linux foundation like for companies who do open source who are contributing who are who tend to be leading in some way. But this one is representational, but this is everyone. And I find it quite interesting to see that still if we remove this focus. We still have 14% of medium larger companies 500 to 2000 with more than five FTEs involved, and over 2000, even if you're not an open source or links foundation member. There's going to be 50% with more than five FTEs involved. I believe this is just an interesting number to to grasp that actually every company, or most companies are in some degree related to open source and feel obligated to manage it. We come to our next figure here, which is about security because managing open source one part of this is of course the enablement. It's also the compliance, but very important topic today is also of course security. So Julian, what, what is the latest here from this survey about security assessments. Well, I hope this is not the latest and greatest because according to this survey we do manual checks. Now, I believe opens automation in the security frontier is on the rise, I believe this is understood. Still there's a lot of manual work involved I believe this is the one key aspect that we have to take away from this. There are just so many things in open source compliance, open source management from security to compliance right. That's just not well automated. This goes to hardening right hardening containers, this tends to be manual work checking upstream. There's a lot of manual work involved and right tools are coming up solutions are coming up or are available. We still see that a lot of personnel is just bound to do manual, manual security, something from assessing components to creating hardened containers or applications. And we believe this is something that is going to change over time, because we still see that open source has had a tremendous growth in the last year. This is something that is due to that that open source has just overwhelmed many companies snuck into their processes, and it's just about to get more optimized, I would say. Perhaps one information here on this graphics for example. So these are the companies interviewed who use open source or integrate open source. So the sample size is a little bit smaller. And therefore it's actually the companies who say they don't use open source, they didn't respond to this question so it's only the companies who actually say they use and integrate open source and develop open source software and so on. And I think it's a little bit frightening that 23%. So that's one quarter actually state that they don't do any security checks at all. And perhaps they become aware of vulnerabilities or they do not. So that's the number I think this needs to be worked on. And Julian, you mentioned all the manual work. And for me always the challenge with manual work is that it's labor intensive. It might not be so effective. And sometimes with manual work, of course, also issues may arise. So, and I think that's again the topic that needs to be worked on. And when we now look at the next question, so selection criteria for open source software projects. Can we see the any combination or any on any hint from from security and how relevant is this for for the companies when they select open source software projects. Absolutely. The thing is we don't know who answered which, which question in relations in relation to the previous one, because I would wonder, looking at professionalism and the CVE count on security projects to 55% of companies are these the manual checks, or is part of these the 25% who just hope CV is don't exist. So there are various ways to look at this. But actually this is this is interesting that having a project with few CV is tends to be the number one criteria to use a product and just being followed by free use act by the way, we consciously have free use and royalty free. So this is again this is very similar to the openness aspect that we had in the beginning. Companies have more regard for free software in terms of software that they can change and they can have access to and so and so on. And then just the pure fact that it's for free because this again this is something that slowly coming into people's understanding, even the open source ecosystem needs to be paid, and even support needs to be bought at some place or another. So the royalty part slowly coming down. More important things are free, but most important that they are secured in some way. What I personally find interesting is that the community tends to be very irrelevant to a given degree, which I find interesting that the reputation and activity of a community doesn't seem to be such a large factor anymore. We wonder how this can be. But I believe this is a lot of due to the fact that this is just very intransparent thing. The components are just done. They are not exposed directly to the internet. And you're just happy that they exist the way they are. So basically make sure there's no CV in it and whether or not it gets developed further isn't of large concern, although we still have to have to keep in mind. Although most companies didn't take very important in the community parts, it's still important, right? So maybe don't draw this too dark, but it's an interesting change here. Okay. So now let's look at participation in open source software development. So the question here is, does your company participate in development of open source? And I think that's quite an important question. And because open source in the community, I mean, that's the basis of open source to actually share and collaborate and to participate, or at least a very important part. So when we look here at these numbers, the answers were 55% participate in open source software development and 43% that do not participate so far. And here in the middle, when we look how it's spread over the company size, there's not too much difference. Only larger companies and 2000 employees and above actually say with 75% they participate in open source software development. Can I ask you something? You said 42% do not participate in open source yet. Should every company consider participating in open source development or is there a reason why maybe you shouldn't? Or is this a road for everyone basically? It would be best if we all end there. I mean, it comes back to the question of strategy and where do you use open source software in your company and what do you use it for? It would be great if everyone does participate. And the next question is actually how was this question in terms of participation interpret? So, I mean, if you participate in a community and just raise some questions or make some suggestions, that's also participation. If you upstream bug fixes or smaller code amendments, that's of course participation. And particularly, this makes sense when you depend on some open source software and you don't want to make a fork within your organization and then have to further develop the component on your own. It makes sense to participate, to upstream, etc. But if you ask me if everyone has to be a project maintainer and has to have 20 projects outside up and running, I think that's very individual based on the company and the fields the company works in. So, and when we look here at in which way they participate in the open source software development, it's interesting because 36% the highest number they say we buy support services or subscription for enterprise editions of open source. So that's also some part of participation. If you buy services and pay for it, where open source software is further developed, you don't do it with your own staff, but you engage with other companies who do that. It's also participating in open source software development. And impressing 21% say that employees or teams within the company participate in the open source community and in projects. And here the number at the bottom 9% say that they change open source code and provide it back to the community. And that's, I guess, a good, good and impressive number. But it has to go up. It will. This we can be sure by the way looking at the time. I think we should speed up a little bit so we have a chance to actually look at the public sector. Okay, then I'll take this slide. It's a quick one. We talked about participation open source. We talked about strategy and this is a mandatory question of course. Do you have an open source software policy and compliance process and just remember how many people actually say that they participate in open source and they use open source, but an open source policy to manage open source within the company, only 22% states they have. Again, the numbers, I think that has to go up. And it actually compared to 2019. It went up a lot. It went up by 59% compared to 2019 in the like for like comparison. And when we now look at the compliance process, do they have compliance processes implemented and documented. They present say they have compliance process. So again interesting 48 heaven compliance process, but only 22 have a policy. So it's again they do something, but perhaps it's not completely written down in a policy and spread over the whole company. Actually, this is something that we see quite often that there tend to be some divisions who do open source do it for longer have some, some old experts in the field and of course they know how to do their compliance processes. So it never made its way to corporate policy right so there's still a lot of divisions who don't have the compliance, a policy or the process. And this of course reflect in the policy right the governing thing often is just not there, but for many of the processes they they they know they exist at some point. So 50% don't have a compliance process at all, which leads us to the next slide with a question about the adoption of ISO 52 30 Julian. So what is this about. Oh, this is basically the question. I mean you all know if ISO 52 30 this is Linux foundations open chain standard though the big management standard for open source in companies. It is being recognized. I mean it is if an ISO standard now so it's hardly to be avoided. And still we have 50% of companies who are not that aware of it. Interestingly, at least for me is that this doesn't really change in regards to company size. It's 50% for all company sizes right. Okay some some 40s in it but basically it's always 50%. And this is the ones for the companies who actually have dealt with open chain right so not the 50% who didn't. And these ones. They see a lot of value in open source. So basically if you if you want to look at the at the right side graph for a second. This is just a small added value. This is the right the red part right for smallest companies 41%. This is just another compliance requirement, probably. At least this is how I believe it is felt. For the larger companies up from starting with 100 and especially for the ones who work for the big for the big OEMs for instance the 500 to 2000s. They see large or larger value in open chain and especially if you if we ignore the 2200 for a second because again they have other things to do then compliance more often than not. This is a huge demand for open chain right 100 to 200 employees rather small companies see see very high value at least for 36%. This we believe is is an extremely high value we did not expect that to be such so well received. And again the 500 to 2000s by just 6% so small value this is I believe again very important impressive. But understandable right these are the companies who provide a large amount of products to more compliance driven larger companies. So they are happy to have some sort of way some way to document their process to to basically have a process to follow understand how best practices in open source work. Because they more often than not already do a lot of open source. But it's it's not very regulated right there are very few processes that you can follow and now we have one. And this is what we see here and actually to self certified to show them to your customers and clients or to get certified by an external party and then have an official certificate on compliant open source software management. So that's the value I think say they see here. Absolutely I mean we have seen the full time equivalents that are busy with doing open source compliance in and out. And this is something that I have at least experienced multiple times that they are busy with the software the product they get provided. Right they their software they buy from their suppliers and whether or not it's compliant is weirdly documented sometimes because it wasn't really standardized for a long time this is not something that we are going to change. This is actually this is going to free up resources significantly because now we understand that there are processes in place to manage open source accordingly. And basically reduce the risks very very very unanimously. And now let's have a look at public sector and their answers. So as we mentioned before first time. This group was also interviewed and involved 100 public sector organizations were questioned. And here we present a focus on strategy usage and contribution. And we always compare it actually to the numbers from the industry so this puts it a little bit into into context. So we start here again with perception of open source software and public administration. What is your position and do you remember here you can see the higher numbers easy or radish is the red color and compare to the orange so the red is industry and orange is public sector. And interested and open minded are only 32% in the public sector this is less than half of the industry. And skeptical and dismissive actually 23% so that's almost one quarter skeptical towards open source software, which is again much higher numbers and what we've seen and here from the industry. Doesn't look too good does it. But, but I believe there's a good reason for it. Public public sector is differently regulated. And I've spoken with with people from the public administration who even even even just create making something open source that they have already completely regardless of whether or not this made might impact their business or not. They're not even sure whether or not that's allowed. So they have a completely different rules set, because once the public sector for instance introduces new software, maybe they paid for it from tax money and so on. And while this is demanded by many throughout the world, look at public money public code for instance. It's completely unclear whether or not they are allowed to do this at least for many of them. I believe many see a lot of risks related to related to open source. They often have a more complex legal structure in terms of how they got their software in the first place. And I believe this all leads to being more skeptical, more dismissive, not really just being against open source, but I believe there's a larger fear that they can't just use it that simply. Because perhaps they think about using and doing open source also has something to do with skills skills that and people and HR that they need additional people to actually be involved and in open source software. And in public sector it might not be so easy to not so flexible to onboard new people to have this positions. So this might be also one case why they are actually skeptical because they perhaps think it's not so easy for them to manage. When we look here on the right hand side, the numbers are not so different to the industry. So the answer of do we use open source software is 46% compared to 71 in the industry. And so I think the other difference is not so strong. Absolutely. I just like to point out that they have 5% more strategy than the industry, while have a completely different view in terms of their interest. And again, I'd like to put the idea forward that the barriers higher. So the 30% who are interested in open minded about open source are most likely the ones, the 30% who have the OSS strategy. So that for them it's more of a requirement to actually do open source to make it make it former than for the industry who can just go ahead and have the strategy for for other purposes. Yeah, I'm just conscious of time going to the next slide. And we just wanted to highlight also this question participation open source software development. I mean, it's not surprisingly based on the slides before and figures before. So the participation open source software development in the public sector is a little bit lower than in the industry, compared 64% to 55%. And of course, the answer that they do not participate in open source software development is by 50% is higher than in the industry. But I think this is something that which will change over the next years. That's probably going to increase but must still 46% of the public sector, say they participate in open source development. And this is not too bad. Again, again, this is just a certain German sector. So we might have to focus on that. But I believe for every, every public sector, the perception is smaller. So, actually, I'm quite happy to see this being in the 50% range here. And when we look at how do they participate comparable to the industry so they also do buy support services subscriptions. I could have thought this number would a little bit be higher. It's 30%. I would have thought in public sector perhaps they do buy more services and subscriptions. And interestingly, 12% also initiate and support projects in the open source community, which is a good number for. And actually 22% the public sector, they, they provide change open source code and developments back to the community. So if public sector does open source, they actually also provide code back to the community by 22%, which is a much higher number of the 9% which we heard from the industry. And which is a very good sign because as you mentioned before, public money, public code. This is what they live here when they say by 22%, they provide code and changes, etc. back to the community. Absolutely. I find this one just in contrast to the whole, the previous slide where they have just way less interest in open source but if they use open source and they just give it back. I like this idea. So we have to sum up our talk here. We could have shown more slides but this was the most these were the most interesting ones I hope you have known good idea on the state of open source software here in Germany is the last latest figures. The whole study and the full information you will find online. You can visit our website and you will find the whole study and some more interpretations from from our end on these numbers. Thank you Julian for joining me here on this session. Thank you for listening to to this to our talk. And if you have any questions and come back to us anytime we are happy to give you even more detailed figures because we have the full numbers. So if you have specific questions to a particular industry sector and so on, feel free to to ask us and get in touch with us. Thanks very much and see you soon.