 I think we'll continue to have a few issues, but at least we've got a working link and we're here. So thanks everyone. Welcome. With that, I would take a motion on the agenda. I'm a motion to adopt the agenda as is. Great motion made by commissioner. I'm sorry, let me change to gala review. Um, commissioner. Apologies at any discussion. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed. That passes unanimously. The next thing we have is the minutes from our last meeting, which was on February 26th. Do I have a motion on that? I'm asking to approve the minutes. Moved by commissioner Durfee, seconded by. Second that commissioner. Thank you. Any discussion. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed. That also pass in unanimously. And the next agenda item is public forum and just so folks know. We have two different types of public form. So we've got a general one right up at the beginning. And then we also have public forum for each one of the items. So. On the agenda today, we've got to let the consultants. We've got equitable sharing. And then we've got a CNA update from the administration. And so in each case, there is a presentation that will happen or at least a short discussion. And then folks can feel free to do public forum. At that time, instead of a general discussion. But. Yes. I see you and I will allow you to speak now. Great. Can you hear me? Yes. All right. Great. Thank you. I spoke to just the police commission, I guess a few weeks back. And I'm, I'm Jeff Nick. I'm chair of the marketplace commission. And I'd like to speak to about. Our concerns on behalf of the commission. Our merchants and visitors downtown. You know, coming out of this pandemic, we have great concerns about our business. We have great concerns. We have great concerns. We have great concerns. We have great concerns. You know, coming out of this pandemic, we have great concerns about getting everything back on track. And creating a safe and positive atmosphere down on the marketplace and the surrounding streets. And, you know, we rely greatly on law enforcement presence down here on the marketplace. They're really a great benefit to us. We pay a tremendous amount of taxes. And we have grocery seats tax that we raise. And a little bit of history here. Back when they raised a grocery seats tax from 1% to 2%. This goes back. More than 10 years ago. It was of the promise that police coverage would be increased. And so now we find ourselves with. We have less police coverage. And I haven't heard anybody talk about the future in terms of bringing that back. And maybe I shouldn't use the term police. I should use the term law enforcement. Because I understand your consultant is looking at various. Different ways of providing that service. And I think that's fine. That's great. But let me tell you, we, we desperately need. To get through the summer and to create this positive atmosphere. And I'm, I'm talking about quality of life issues. I mean, we have simple things that help to create the atmosphere down here in terms of the, we have a smoking ban. We've got motorized skateboards now up and down the street bicycles. We, and as the summer gets on, we have public intoxication. Fighting public urination. We have a lot of people blocking the sidewalks, which they're not supposed to. There's a night for right away. That is not supposed to be blocked. So everybody can have safe passage along the street, especially the handicap. And so people will sit in that right away and not move. We have graffiti. I mean, you've seen the graffiti. It's just horrible down here. And it creates a very, very unsettling atmosphere. So, and I've talked to the police. And, and those things I just mentioned, there's a great apprehension on their part to even bother to enforce some of those things. So there's a little bit of a disconnect going on between what we need down here, the business community. And what services are being provided to us. So we really have to think this through. And because we don't want to lose what we have down here. And, you know, I feel that a number of concerns from people out of town that come down here and used to come downtown. That, that frankly. Are fearful to come downtown. And so please, you know, think this through as you're, as you're figuring out how to move forward here. And I would hope that, and I'm actually, we're, we're quite shocked that nobody's reached out to the business community to say, Hey, what do you folks need? You know, we haven't been consulted or approached. Or as I can tell, our executive director. Director director has a bit approached. And we'd like to be part of the dialogue and try to help figure out, you know, how to move forward and what changes need to be made. But we definitely have a need and. Those needs seem to be unmet at the time. So. Thanks for your. Your. Contribution and thanks for listening and I hope we can work together. All right. Thank you. Thank you, Jeff. Appreciate that public comment. Does anybody else want to talk on. General. Public forum before we go into our agenda items. If so, feel free to raise your hand. If not, then I'll move us to our third agenda item, which is to letha. And I've promoted. Presenters. Co-hosts. And Karase have you and Karima, is that correct? Or am I looking for someone else? Yes. And then, um, David Mankey will join us. So if you see David Mankey. First of all, thank you for this. Another meeting time and, uh, the, the, the public comments section is. Something that I, I, or all of us to lead the team to be listening to. And so the person who spoke earlier, like we need to. Be engaging the business community. Yes. For sure. And I am also a small business owner and it is very important. And it is part of the process again. It is a process. And therefore. It's coming. It's a matter of timing in which we engage with the business community. It is all part of the plan with that. I'm going to share my screen. So bear with me for a second. So you have to be looking at. Counselor Zaria, could you tell me what you see right now? Yep. I see the starting slide to PowerPoint. Perfect. All right. So here we are. We are going to be going through a process overview. And I am primarily talking right now. And Karima is going to come in to give an update about the next level of engagement. And the next plan. And I am just bringing in David because as you know, David Mankey is. In the part of the law enforcement subject matter expert. And also, you know, he does public safety consulting in statewide and have served as a police commissioner as well. So when I put this together, David's perspective had also informed and shaped how this is being put together. All right. So as you know, we have done the joint committee kickoff meeting. Let me just see a thumbs up. Real thumbs, not digital to see whether or not. Joint committee can see what I'm showing. Very good. Okay. So. One of them is doing a, it's okay. Okay. That's more on me. I just have terrible eyesight. So that's not on you. No, no. Inclusion has everything to do with everything we do. Well, how does that look? Is this a little better for you? Sorry, that's much better. Thank you. Good. See, just speak up. All right. So here we are. So you, you see that joint committee kickoff. We did that on February 1st. And then meeting stakeholders. We had to, and we will present that. So what I'm presenting today. It's the narratives. And then the feedback we got from the key stakeholders. And they, they are mostly community based stakeholder. Again, to the business community who is watching, we are also engaging with you. Okay. Just, we have time and space is a limitation. And so we have to, to strategize. Okay. Having said that on addendum G, a joint committee had an opportunity with the help of Audrey to generate key stakeholders. So we are going to be presenting some of the. Needs and voices that we have gathered. Okay. So this is where we are right now. So process overview. We had two workshops. And a few of the. Counselor Freeman participated and showed up to both. And we are very appreciative of that. February 23rd. We have 15 individual representing 14 organizations. And one on affiliated, meaning they just say, I just come as an individual, which is very important. Another one is key. To place on February 25th. 12 individuals representing 10 organizations. And one. Unaffiliated. Now. In both these. Both of, both of these four shop. We use what is called. Mural as a facilitation guide. So just bear with me. I'm going to pull up mural. Okay. So it's going to be small. Are you looking at. Okay. So let's see. Commissioner Hart with a T. What do you see right now? Top of upper left-hand corner. Yeah, I am seeing. It's, it's not quite. Something I can, I, I could probably read it, but I think for Jabu, that's going to be really tough. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not the, the point is not to read it. Do you see a paper and I like, like a table. Sure. It says agenda overview. And then I can see all the way. Perfect. So I'm just showing this is the, this is the platform we used. Okay. As consulting team. For 90 minutes of engagement. See how generative that is. So when we were generating. Receiving comments. We were typing. It away. And this is where we input it data. Okay. So the two. So again, this is not for you to take a look at. I just wanted to show you what we used as our facilitation tool. Okay. Now I'm going back to the presentation. So you should see process overview. Are you saying process overview now? Commissioner Hart. Yes. Thank you. Perfect. So that's what it is, right? So we use mural link. To. For facilitation tool. Now participating agencies. I'm going to stop talking for a bit. So you can take a look at it yourself. Just going to give 30 more seconds. So. Key takeaways. That we are. We have gathered. I'm going to pull up the slide really quick because. It's supposed to be a copy slide, but let me see. Okay. Here's the visual key takeaway in bubble form. And then I'm going to show you in a chart form. Okay. So there are four core themes that emerged. Two of them are tied. So when I say core themes, they are, they have been put through. Qualitative analysis software called the Atlas TI. And then we counted frequencies. Of these themes, right? Brought up. Core theme number one. The desire to be understood. Accepted. And have a sense of agency. It's one of the biggest core themes. That emerged out of all the narratives. And the question being is, what does it mean to be a healthy community? Okay. So key stakeholders answered that question. Through their position as an agency representative. Remember, this is. Findings from key stakeholder engagement. Okay. We will have findings from individual residents. Soon. When we continue to do NPA engagement and individual engagements. At a resident level. This is from the key stakeholders that I just showed. To the joint committee. The second core theme is tied with 25%. 25%. Frequency. It is very logical that these two things are tied. More investment in these areas. And of course it is. It makes absolute logical sense that. Social determinants of health, which by the way, I will. Provide. Definition and description for what that means. So these two are tied. The third core theme. Is. Desire to have healthier interaction. And relationship with the police. Burlington police department. I'm going to pause for a moment. So all of you. Can process. Now, another way of data visualization. I would like to show is through. A table chart. We had things that we quoted for all these narratives, like hundreds of quotations we got, right? From the mural board. We input it. And then we came up with 10 core themes out of the 10 core themes. We are just highlighting the top three right now. Any questions so far. You just need to unmute and talk to me because I have it on. Screenshare. Okay. Now remember this is meaning of a healthy community. And then another question is meaning of a safe community. Okay. These are the, these are the main questions we use. In our conversations. Now core theme one. I have a question. David, could you, would you be so kind to unmute yourself? And read every. Quoted line here. David. Yes. Number one core theme. Now core theme one. I have asked my team to put insert direct quotation. From the workshops. If I could have just so that I can have a break from reading so much. David, could you, would you be so kind to unmute yourself and read every. Number one core theme to be understood, accepted and have agency or a sense of belonging. Some of the quotes were a freedom of fear from the unfamiliar. And the other. Everyone has a chance to be themselves. No police fatalities. Freedom of fear from retaliation when speaking up against people with power. Not labeling those on the margins. People with visible and invisible disabilities. So that's what we're going to do. So that's what we're going to do. So that's what everyone's identity is taken into consideration. So. I was muted. So my team knows that we're not to just read aloud. Acronyms that's not spelled out. So the acronym BIPOC for those of you are watching and who are not familiar. It is black indigenous people of color. Okay. And we did not spell it out because it was a direct quotation of the acronym, not the actual description. So I want to spend the next few minutes going through. What the framework that we use. Right for belonging. And I am gleaning from my mentor and also the international thought leader. Dr. John Powell. From othering and belonging Institute, which is located in UC Berkeley. So he defines belonging as, and I'm going to ask commissioner Hart with the P. Would you be so kind to read the definition for us? Sure. Belonging. Belonging means more than just being seen belonging entails having a meaningful voice and the opportunity to participate in the design of social and cultural structures. Belonging means having the right to contribute to and make demands on society and political institutions. Belonging is more than just feeling included. Belonging means that your well-being is considered and your ability to design and give meaning to structures and institutions is realized. So I do understand that the city of Burlington already have racial equity inclusion and belonging department. So one of the things that I would like to encourage the joint committee is to, you know, step back and say, Hey, you know what this key stakeholders are talking about the importance of social and cultural structures. What does it look like for us as the joint committee in planning, using these concepts and putting it into motion. One of the things that I want to call to attention is the part that says to participate in the design of social and cultural structures. Right. In many ways what we're doing is an element of that. Right. So the question remains, how do we expand that? Right. And so there's also in the quote that David read, one of the quote said, not to be marginalized or to be seen as the other. So what do we mean by othering? And the quote again is also from. OBI. May I have a volunteer to read this? Perhaps I'm just going to ask commissioner. Gommash. Can you see okay. Othering. Othering is a set of dynamics, processes and structures that engender marginality and persistent inequality across any of the full range of human differences based on group identities. Sorry. Based on group identities. Important distinction. The opposite of othering is not. Saming. We, the people never included all the people. So. I want to offer those so that we have at least shared understanding when we say belonging and othering. Okay. One of the ways that we avoid confusion is not assuming. Okay. Core theme number two, more investment in these areas. Again, I want to remind us that there are two compete. Two core theme, number two, right? And so, um, David, would you be so kind to read the once in the quotation once again? Sure. So we have the holistic response to unhoused youth beyond giving a referral to shelters. Equitable opportunities. Education. Equal access to physical buildings for people of all abilities. Employment. Resources for drug addiction. Access to affordable childcare. Improved physical environment. Housing and walkability. And access to housing. So earlier, the business. Oh, earlier, the business person talked about. In downtown, right? People are afraid to go to downtown this perception of fear. I mean, what does walkability do with that? It's something for us to continue to. Again, to avoid confusion. I want to make sure that we ground ourselves and share it. Definition social determinants of health. There are five criteria that comprises social determinants of health. And we are using the criteria set by. Centers for disease control. Economic stability. Education access and quality. Healthcare access and quality. Neighborhood built. Neighborhood and built environment. That includes housing, bridges, walkability things. That's the type, like my bread and butter, right? As a regional planner. Social and community context. This part is about social fabric. One feeling a sense of the longing. Right. And those are, I would say the invisible resources. Cultural assets. Now the third core theme. David, can you read again for the quotes? We have trauma informed services. Please training to respond to youth experiencing extreme poverty and trauma. Low barrier access to resources. Is linked to public safety and mental health. I'm not sure what your acronym is there for POC. Yes, that's so we, we again, we once again will, we will not assume this one. It is okay. POC is person of color. David, but it is good that you did not assume that. So person of colors are not treated differently locally. By the police. So person of colors are not treated differently locally. By the police. And understanding racial justice and equity. Right. Part. Okay. So in. In the process of. Digging deeper. I would also like for us to remember a few things. We are showing you qualitative data. Meaning we are using narratives. Things that people share based on their experiences and observation. Again, these key stakeholders represent community based organization. That are, you know, large, small and everywhere in between. And these narratives have the power. To either break. Or to bridge, right? All narratives have the power. So at the bottom is this narratives of shared humanity. Optimism, opportunity and inclusion can help counteract this year. And angry popularism we see today. Both of which have grown out of widespread breaking stories. That warn of a dark and scary future. Or an untruth and sentimental historical past. And we have been informed that there were narratives that are perpetuated. In the, you know, it's not just Burlington alone. Our nation even went through. Breaking narratives. Right. And, and many other nations. So this is not just for Burlington in a human society. Stories and narratives have that power. Right. But what I also want to say is that stories and narratives have the power. That are not just for Burlington. They are not just for Burlington. They are not just for Burlington. They are not just for Burlington. So as you look at these quotes that I'm going to continue to share. I would like each of the joint committee to think of this. What do you hear when you listen to me present. Direct quotations. And voices of the people. What do you see? I'm asking you to engage your site. What do you think of what you're seeing and hearing? Okay. And before I proceed, I just want to. Use this opportunity so that we can put a check to our self introspection of, okay, am I listening to these narratives. With an intent to bridge or with an intent to break so that we can check ourselves with that. Okay. I'm going to move on to the next slide. With that, may I have Karima read the bridging portion, please? Sure. Also bridging. Relating to other groups based on deep listening. Empathetic space and recognition of suffering. It rejects that there is a dam while recognizing our unique differences. It's a strategic or intentional response to reject. And I'm going to move on to the next slide. Thank you. Thank you. I'm reading breaking. Not at all. Breaking. Pulling away from other groups in ways that make it easier to tell and believe false stories of us versus them. To initiate or foster practices that reinforce other ring. And dehumanize is a manufactured them. A manufacturer or manipulated interpersonal and or structural relationships. I'm going to move on to the next slide. Thank you. These are not easy to read because we can. We can many. I can recall. Narratives perpetuated to break. Right. So as I would like to encourage the joint committee. To also ponder on what type of narratives are being generated, even about this process. To create further divide. What type of narratives do we need to elevate. So that we can further build a bridge. These are direct quotations. Some of the direct quotations. To support the desire. For a sense of wanting to be understood. Accept it. And have a sense of agency. I think it would be powerful. We actually read it. I'm just going to go back to the slide. I have a question for you. If you're a commissioner, heart with a T. Could I ask you to read the quotes? Please. For viewers who have the heart of sight, maybe it might be good to listen to this. Sure. I'm not sure that I can see all, but I'll read as far as I can see. Allow space to vulnerable people. This can be applied to any circumstance. it. Next quote. Vermont is overwhelmingly white. Next quote. I feel safe because of my multiracial identity. Next quote. People with mental health issues are seen as quote unsafe and quote people. Next. Individuals experiencing homelessness experience isolation also with mental health issues. Feeling less safe. This group is no, I think it's supposed to say is not monolithic. They are individuals. So it's what is needed depends. Next. Working with formerly incarcerated people. The state is looking at new prison construction and that doesn't make me feel safe. But the state is investing money in further incarceration. Next. There are disproportionate impacts on marginalized people. Structures in the city need to be addressed. Democratic processes need to be inclusive. Systems and structure structures that engage people are the same ones that keep people safe and healthy. Next. Everyone has a chance to be themselves. Next. Kids feel safe and able to be themselves when they are at school. Next. They struggle with resources and being understood, being labeled crazy. And then the next quote cuts off for me. We'll read it. Quote. Exclusion is making people feel unsafe. And it is unhealthy when everyone's identity is not taken into consideration. So after that, what we do is we do a work cloud. Of course, the word people is repeated because we're in a people society. But if we remove, I intentionally did not remove the word people. Because that tells you about the importance of connection. And the next word that was amplified, you can see the size of the words are the frequency, the repetition. So let me ask any commissioner what other word was popping out? I mean, what other word is in bold, bigger print? Yes. Commissioner Derpy. Besides people, there's police. There's safe. There's feel. And then from there, the words sort of get smaller structures experiencing employment experience. I'm smaller. Great. So it is, it is smaller. The bigger ones are people, police, safe, feel, identity, enforcement, employment. Okay, they don't, they don't tell us much, but they just reveal to us some of the stronger sentiments being experienced by the people who participate in the workshop. Okay, I want to make it clear about that. These are not numerical numeric revealing. Okay, the next one, core theme, number two, social and racial determinant. Earlier, I only shared the definition and the criteria by the CDC that is just social. I added in the word racial determinants of health here, and you will see why. Kramer, if you're able to, or oh, Commissioner Derpy, since you're already on mute, do you mind reading? And then all these acronyms, POC is people of color, LGBTQ is lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans, and queer. Okay, with that, take it away. Okay, so first quote, POC are people of color treated differently, different locally by the police. This makes people more distant from each other end quote. Next quote, understanding the needs of the community. Next quote, respond to material needs of LGBTQ and disabled community members. Next quote, friendships, people who really know you and you really know them. Your neighbors are strangers. They know how they really are messier to work through issues. End quote. Next quote, exclusion is making people feel unsafe and it is unhealthy when it's when everyone's identity is not taken into consideration. Next quote, place where everyone has a home, food, security, and basic needs met. Next quote, equitable opportunities, access to employment and education, access as defined by individuals. Next quote, access to resources, opportunities for interpersonal and community connection. Next quote, living wages to match the risks people are taking. Next quote, income stratification is reduced. And next, address high rents and income gaps. Address high rents and income gaps. Next quote is access to affordable high quality child care, access is key. And then the last one is more resources, access, affordable housing, accessible mental health. All right, so let's have Commissioner Grant. Let me let me make sure that it's not cut off. So I want to pull this up a little bit. Okay. All right. So Commissioner Grant, what words are popping out? There you go. Okay, I'm sorry. I lost the screen. I just got it back. And now I've lost it again. Oh, no problem. So the words that are popping out is Commissioner, whose name start with Stephanie. Please teach me how to say your last name. Seguino. Seguino. Commissioner Seguino, what do you see? Access is the word that is most frequently used. And after that needs health, education, employment, support. Right. So, so again, it reveals to us the desires and the sentiments that's repeated among the participants. Now these two themes are tied, right? So earlier, the theme is we need more investment in these areas. And this one, I'm sorry, earlier is social and racial. And by the way, I added racial because in the CDC definition of social determinants of health, race is under one of the criteria, but not the key criteria in and of itself. And so I'm kind of also challenging that by putting in race, because as you can see, people of color is specifically called out in the quotes. Okay. All right. More investment in this area. If I, so this is what I'm going to do because it's a little cut off. So, are me. All right. May I have a commission of counselor Freeman? Are you there or no? If counselor Freeman is not here, may I have another volunteer to read this? I'll jump in. Quote having support services, not BPD, please. Coming out to give mental health support. Next quote. Health services to combat drug addiction. Next quote. Having support services, not BPD. Coming out to give, wait, that was a repeat. Sorry. Sorry. I, pardon me. I hit the wrong button. Pardon me. And yes, the quote to repeat it and repetition is to make a point that it was repeated twice in this. Okay, commissioner, please go on. All right. I will start at, I'll start at the fourth quote. Not everyone will go to shelters. Next quote. Place where everyone has a home, food security and basic needs met. Next quote. Equitable opportunities, access to employment and education, access as defined by individuals. Next quote. Access to affordable, high quality childcare. Access is key. Next quote. Equity of opportunity, access to employment, education, home, food and other security, regardless of level of education or employment status. Next quote. Mental health services and inclusive and diverse therapists. Next quote. Walkability across neighborhoods. Champlain Parkway is not as walkable, bikeable and lacks access to public transportation. This requires regional coordination. Next quote. Safe Harbor Clinic with community health centers. Next quote. Howard Center, community center in Burlington. And I can't see if there's anything after that. Okay. And so I'm going to, I expect from the presentation slide and pull this up. So here it is. The quick, sorry, just, I assume we've got a few more of these, right? No, just one more. And then we jump into key discussions. Okay, great. Yeah, we are only focusing on core three major core themes. Great. And Joy, if some, if one of the commissioners has to jump off and I only have five left, does that mean we have to end the meeting? If you don't have a core, you just, you can't take any binding action. But we can continue to have information in all meetings. Great. Yes. Thank you so much. Thank you. So since Counselor Zariah is already unmuted, what do you see Counselor Zariah as far as what's popping out? Yes, we have health as well as access services, access services, mental, safe needs, community and people. So there we are. Those are the core themes. And I'm going to go back to this slide again. Three core themes with number two, having two pieces that are interlocked and connected. Okay. And with that, the key takeaway once again, what does it mean in the discourse of public safety for people to feel understood, accepted and have agency? What does it mean when we are going to build bridges in this discourse? What does it mean? Those are the things that I would love our commissioners to continue to think. And out of all the quotes that you have heard, what are the questions, lingering questions you still have that you want us, the facilitators to continue to ask? So in terms of bridging, as we engage in this conversation, to expand a sense of agency and belonging, even in our process, I want us to remember a quote by, from BOI, but it comes from anecdotally from Africa. Umbuntu. I am because we are. A person is a person through relationship with other people. This is an affirmation of one, humanity through recognition of and other in his or her unique and difference, uniqueness and difference. Humanity is the quality we owe to each other. We create each other and need to sustain this otherness and creation. If we belong to each other, we participate in our creations. We are because you are. And since you are, definitely I am. So again, as far as the question regarding what is it, what does safe community mean to you? I have to keep clicking because the little screen bar, the same 10 different themes emerged again. Freedom from fear of and you fill in the blank, healthier interaction, eradication of structural racism. You didn't see quotation for some of them because they didn't come up as the top three, but there is 10 of them. The only difference between a safe community and healthy community is that under safe community, nobody made any comments about proactive response to sustainability and climate change. So that is the end of our findings. I'm going to back up. The end of our presentation of the learnings we have received from the first two stakeholder engagement. Prima, can you report the joint committee about NPAs and our next level of engagement? Just give me one second. Just as far as where we are in the process, we are still engaging with the community and we have been focusing on the listening sessions with the NPAs. We had a meeting, I think it was last Wednesday, awards one and eight and just received a lot of really thoughtful and valuable input as we did with the stakeholder meeting. But as we're working and trying to get on the agendas, we're finding there's a bit of challenge to get us squeezed into their agendas with the time that we need to get really good, not rushed input. So one of the things we talked about with Skyler is a solution could be us holding a town hall meeting as a listening session. So we wanted to get your thoughts on that. Right now we do have, let's see, we have a meeting on March 24th scheduled with awards four and seven. And then in talking to award five, possibly April, mid-April and then awards two and three still trying to get that squeezed in. And we're hearing April, maybe May. So we just thought that might be a good way to kind of be able to bring everyone in. And Skyler, I see you took your, you have your video on. So if you want to jump in, just wanted to get some thoughts on that and also not overburden the NPAs with changing their schedules and getting people kicked off their agendas. Yeah. And so part of this is that we also wanted to incorporate into the back and not the back end of this process, but as this process went along, the language accessibility part of this. And so when you look at trying to schedule separate meetings for each NPA, while then also trying to separate out language accessibility, it seemed like the most efficient way to move forward and give everybody adequate chances to be heard in this process while also getting it done in a timely fashion and making sure we make the most of Talitha's time that it could be helpful to schedule a town hall where everybody could come in, hear the presentation, have interpreter services present for language accessibility and give everybody access to Talitha. Because what we also want to be mindful of is that, you know, there's like three separate processes that are going on at the same time in the city of the strategic plan, Talitha and then the upcoming operational assessment of policing. And we really want all of those processes, particularly Talitha, to inform then the operational assessment and so making sure that we can do this work in the most timely, effective fashion that we can. And I think that trying to schedule individual meetings until, you know, late April into May is probably not what we want to be doing. Great. Thanks for that presentation. Before we go into committee discussion, I just want to open it up for public forum, especially because I see quite a few Ward 1 attendees who of course were part of the first NPA meeting. So if anybody has thoughts or questions, I saw a few things in the Q&A as well that you want to voice, feel free to raise your hand and I will enable you to speak. Go ahead, Carol. Hi, I'm Carol Livingston. I'm an Ward 1 as a steering committee member of the NPA. And I've also worked with Adenhaji, who's one of our school commissioners, on efforts to increase language accessibility for our new Americans. And I think we'd suggest just a smaller meeting for folks from the new American community. We don't as an NPA have anyone from the new American community come regularly to our NPAs. And so I'm just asking you all to maybe think about how to accommodate the needs and comfort of different groups who may need you to make your meeting smaller or just even publicizing the meeting will take sort of word of mouth kind of interactions, I think. And this is just you know, from my very limited experience, I mean, Adenha and other community members from the new American community would be much better at advising you. But that would be my one concern about what Scarlett is raising as an approach. Thank you. I know, am I allowed to respond with the public forum? I don't know the rules. Yes, since it's a committee meeting, it's a more casual public forum. I would say just let's not get into a long back and forth. But yes, absolutely. Yeah, just to clarifying, I was actually able to talk with the administrator of our trusted community voices group that we have internal to the city, which is comprised of a number of new American community leaders. The idea was first proposed there. And it seems like it's being accepted and that it's going to work out, but we're going to continue to be using the TCVs as well as Adenha to continue to make sure that we're making it as as accessible and as effective as possible. So if we need to make changes, we will. That's all I'll say on that. Thank you, Scarlett. Other folks, go ahead, Karis. I have my hand up just to ask for process clarification. There is a comment in the Q&A. I'm not sure if it's I'm supposed to answer that, or if someone's supposed to answer that. I'm willing to answer if that's that's in my lane. Yeah, Brendan, I don't know if you want to, if you have, if you want to speak to your question, I'm happy to allow you to talk or I have allowed you to speak if you want to do that. Other than that, I'm happy to read your Q&A out loud. Great. So Brendan wrote in asking, will there be an increase in mental health services and therefore increase in employment? Do you feel mental health services will eventually eradicate racism? Karis, if you would like to answer that, Phil. Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, so Brendan, thank you. What that tells me is that you are engaging in the slides that we were going through. So in statistics, many of some of you, I'm a stats person, there's such thing as causation and correlation, right? So in a lot of social services, the questions that you're asking is if you get rid of mental health, does that mean you increase employment? It doesn't work that way, okay? Because one doesn't cause the other therefore. So, so, but correlation tells that if there is a stronger correlation, so for example, if we're providing more mental health services, behavioral health services, emotional regulation, if we're offering those, if we're investing in that to people who have had a lot of experience with violence or trauma, then there may be correlation and in that they do a better job showing up to work on time without being angry, you know what I mean? So, so there can be studies on correlation, but unfortunately, the question you asked is about causation, therefore it cannot be answered. Any other folks before I open it up to committee members? Great committee, if you have any questions, feedback? One quick thing that I have having been to the NPA session is I just want to make sure that to some extent I feel like there's been a lot of focus on what a safe and healthy community is and I think the RPA specifically asked for how to build us and to give people voice to that and so just making sure that we're giving enough time to their respondents so that they can do their kind of, you know, their initial thoughts and their interpretive thoughts but that we kind of even get to decisional level thinking with folks that we're working with so that we can start to get more to that how as opposed to just some of the some of the surface level things I think would be really great. I know that our NPA it's soon that's also lesson learned is working with the NPAs to make sure you can break into groups so that it's not one big conversation which is always lessons learned but I think it's especially because the community discussion is really the only time that we have for discussion and so making sure that it gets to a discussion and gets a little bit more detailed into the needs values and visions and not just the what is safe and what is healthy. Can I just ask a question, Skyler? I'm a proponent of the town hall idea. I'm just we haven't had the presentation at our NPA yet and yet I you know I just saw today something else came up so it is kind of the nature of the beast it's like oh we've got to fit this person in too and then also I think from a learning and absorption standpoint an important standpoint that I mean it's great that we get to hear about this or that you know but then this kind of goes down to the bottom of the list and so even though this has been given the most time it feels distracting to have that conversation like okay we just talked about you know say watersheds or something else and then we're talking about something else in the neighborhood and then we're going to get to this whereas I I really had hoped that it would be a conversation like this is the conversation that you have been waiting for and you need to you know this it just seems diluted to me I don't know if that makes it looks like it does because you shake your head yeah that's that I think that that's what's fed into this decision is that when I think about the experience that the people who part took in the workshops got in terms of active discussions and and having a really in-depth conversation it's going to be hard to recreate that when you are you know one item on an agenda in an NPA meeting and so the hope is that you know for NPAs that we you know that aren't one in eight that didn't get that experience that they don't think that oh we're just trying to you know loop them in with everybody that we're actually I think with the town hall going to accomplish giving you know all residents that want to be heard in this in this process a much more in-depth opportunity to take part in this conversation rather than like you said trying to fit this in as one item where you have to really shift back and forth and get whiplash between you know some very opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of issues thank you I just had one more point because I am the commissioner that has to get off boo but I one of the things I don't want to hold up is that if we do come to some sort of decision I know that Soraya will is the chair and maybe this is for you Soraya but if that is something that we decide to do and there needs to be a vote I can jump back on so that I can because I feel like I feel really strongly about it I'm nervous about you know the numbers tonight because I think we're still six people if you sign off so we should be able to make do votes okay right no no that's that's all I want to know because I I just feel really strongly about that thank you great yeah sorry and I may have miscounted by not counting myself I sometimes forget to do that um so yeah and I would add to that by saying um if I do think I think originally we asked the NPAs for a 15 minute time slot so if they don't have time for the expansive time but you can still like enter the conversation invite them to the town hall I think that would still be worth doing and having that initial like that that kind of more surface level even kind of question about like what do you think is I think that would still be a nice a nice compliment and I thought I saw Nielow's hand but I don't see it up anymore and Soraya in just response to that I also want us to keep in mind and I guess this is like the city side of me coming out is that in terms of the consultants of making sure that when we loop them in and have them presenting that we really get the most bang for our buck and this sense a little bit more literal than figurative uh in terms of you know having having them come up and and so that you know I do I have roped in Karis and Karima into a lot of meetings and so making sure that is also something that's feeding into this right and then Milo and Karis Milo I don't know if you know what I'm going to say to you yes thank you um so I really agree with the idea of a bigger town hall because it just what we just said you know to be an item on an agenda of a meeting where we really need that entire meeting time to have a proper discussion and to really encourage people um giving their input so I am all for that idea and then also I've been thinking about the idea because I have a real concern about making sure we are hearing from our new American community I kind of feel like is it worth doing some type of paper survey at say like some of the businesses up and down north street that have a lot of interaction with new Americans would it be worth it to put certain surveys and then collect those surveys prior to the town hall so that the responses in those surveys and maybe those surveys could be in um different languages but not be very long just have a couple of um some open-ended questions that people could respond to in their own language and then possibly have people that are willing to to translate it and then offer up that feedback uh so I just want to throw that out there as well because I'm just trying to think of other ways we're so um limited by our COVID restrictions but people are going into those businesses to to take care of be it be it to buy groceries be it to send money home be it to just be able to be in a place with other individuals that speak their language there's there's a lot of conversations I go on in those businesses um and that just might be if anything at the bare minimum a good place to help get the word out thank you great keres and then liya if you want the opportunity to speak go and meet you yeah let's have liya go first and I'll come back because my question is more theoretical stuff so so liya you're permitted to speak if you'd like to if not I'm happy to read your Q&A you are on mute if you do want to talk so liya wrote in to say npa can schedule special purpose meeting all ward npa can schedule citywide town hall meetings stay with the npas npas can schedule single issue special purpose meeting all residents are invited may I go now okay so I did also see another question in the Q&A which is fabulous um and I know counselor will call on that but my question is to the joint committee I am putting it in the chat box I just went through those slides with some shared definitions of belonging and othering because um are there any feedback I would like to hear from the joint committee because if we are you know shared definitions are important are there any concerns with talitha gleaming from othering and belonging institutes I'm seeing no from counselors iraia anyone else okay all right that's good I'm sorry which which shared definition are you speaking about specifically right now yes it's in the it's in the slide and for example uh commissioner oops commissioner gommage read belonging slide another person read other I think you read belonging uh commissioner harp and then another person read othering there was Karima who read bridging those were the definitions so I mean I I'm not prepared right now to say whether I think that those terms the definitions are particularly useful or the right the problems with them I think it would be a question of how you're going to use them in the works you're going forward but I don't see any problems continue to use those those terms but I wouldn't say that I mean I'm not prepared to say right now that I think that those are careful appropriate definitions of those terms yeah we're not critiquing on the the terms I'm just I just delighted to hear that we will continue to use them in the slides as as far as what we understood what the longing means when we have that conversation with the stakeholders and the slides will be shared with the joint committee and will be public records so you will also see uh commissioner harp how these quotes are being utilized contextualized geiler did you oh sorry sorry no I I would just say really quick as a follow-up thank you uh chair just as a follow that so if the idea that we're supposed to understand any of the comments that are made by the participants using those terms as referring to those concepts I would say I want to make sure that those participants were working with that shared understanding themselves right so so right so I'm not going to understand any use of those terms by participant as referring to those concepts but if you want to use those in your presentations to us going forward I have no problems with you doing that so long as you make your career for doing okay yeah the latter the latter what you said the latter using these slides for the presentation going forward and also in our conversation with the workshop participants I'm very intentional about you know staying away from cultural cliches such as oh do you feel seen or heard at work I try to go more about do you feel a sense of agency and we we clarify before we dig into a deeper conversation so thank you commissioner great other commissioner thoughts and comments I'm not a commissioner but just I remember I know you heard some of my name and I was like dang what was I going to respond to and I remember to the to the comment about putting out a survey potentially of open any question to the new American community I think that that's where our relationship with the TCV group the trusted community voices is going to come in and because that group has really been essential to city communication in regards to COVID-19 and that's been a really effective way of broad communication with the new American community and so if we need to do some sort of pre-work before this town hall and I get that kind of sense from Pitt who works for the city who manages the trusted community voices group we can certainly find a way to manage that as well great and then Skylar I'm going to ask you the question and then I'll say some other stuff to give you time to think a little bit but based on what you've heard kind of as the manager of this contract I guess I want to hear what you think the next step should be in terms of the NPA involvement in terms of the town hall also given that some folks really want us to stick with the NPA structure and then just um I'll read this one question and then Skylar doesn't have to answer it I'm happy to once he's done but will the budget cover the cost of the increase in the town hall and will this allow the community to be more involved i.e having artists color the walls to make it more part of everyone's life but if going back to the original question of what would you like kind of the next the plan to be yeah so I think that for us really the thing that is top of mind for me is if in thinking about this town hall format wanting to do the hard work in the next couple weeks to make sure that we set up a capacity to make that language accessible is really at the top of my mind and so we purposely set that date out towards the end of the month so that we could spend the next two weeks really being prepared for that and building up that capacity because it's not something traditionally as a city we've done the best job of in terms of live public meetings and so that's more of an internal thing but I'm also willing to hear more questions or comments about the NPAs or kind of give at least more thoughts as to why we were heading in this direction if that is still a concern for people commissioners thoughts questions reflections yeah I guess mine would be um are you please I guess are you still planning on hitting all of the NPAs even if it's not with to leave the consultants or with in terms of so I would I would be happy if it's if it's important to people that each NPA gets a little bit of an overview of what's going on with the process I would be more than happy to visit the NPAs I feel like I probably wouldn't loop Charis and Karima and make them do those kind of short presentations you know in addition to the town hall I would think that I guess in a perfect world I would like each NPA to have their own session but to me it's less about you know the label of the NPA in the specific ward and more about the residents and so that you know in the hopes being with the town hall that every resident even from wards one and eight from all wards can attend that town hall and have the opportunity for a much deeper conversation than would ever be allowed under the NPA format but if every NPA would like to have some sort of overview about Talitha on their agenda I mean I would be more than happy to attend those meetings and do that Charis um a couple things Talitha has an in-house videographer so we can also record ourselves explaining about the process the NPAs can watch at their own time we could also do that for you okay and another thing is I'm so sorry if I'm stepping on people's toes but I am an artist and musician myself so there was a question about art and I just want that person to feel included in the Q&A yes yes yes yes yes yes yes right if we are going to do the pre-planning work I would love for a muralist to draw something about belonging I would love a muralist draw something about bridging and breaking and othering so I just want to put it out there and I just peeked in the Q&A and saw a question about the all awards NPA I guess my response to that would be that we got some feedback that it was hard to get the new American community and some other residents engaged traditionally in the NPAs and so we thought that if we went outside of the NPA format to hold a town hall that was open to all residents including residents to take part in the NPAs but also the new American community and other residents that may not be traditionally engaged in the NPAs that we could make it as accessible as possible for everybody that wanted to be included. Hey Zariah I'm chair high tower this is Tyesha. Zariah is absolutely fine as always in these meetings go ahead. We are the REIB is already going to be engaged in fiscal year 22 looking for artists who will do a public art piece of a permanent public art piece that actually describes belonging. This will be a nationwide search and it won't be a painting but it will be a sculpture like a feature that will go somewhere in the city and we're planning to do more than one I might it is my hope over the next five years we'll do about three of them but we are planning to start that process earlier on in the spring well later on in the spring working with BCA to get that get that going just wanted to put that out there. Thanks and for those who are listening that was director Tyesha Green go ahead Karen. I was listening to the thought of a video and so I'm really hoping I like that idea too I'm just really liking all of the ideas of let's how do we get to everyone and you know if there's a recording you know it really just makes it you know there's oftentimes in my professional life I'm like oh I wish I had a recording of that I wish I had you know because there's a lot of stuff that's going on city-wide like this that's not really you know really seeping out into the city you know you know I I'm not hearing about it I'm not so I'm concerned even though we've been working hard on this for a long time and then you hear a confusing thing so a video or like a you know I hate to say toolkit because that's over but just you know something where people could say you know I get it I've seen it you know even when I'm talking about it I wish I had something so I could say this is you know this is what we're this is a snapshot of what we're doing so I like that idea too I just wanted to you know keep on pushing for you know because because videos can be translated and they can be slower because I I mean I was on that you know all words and it was great but it was consistently hard for the translators so I just I'm not you know I don't want to get us you know just to that so maybe a video is it's something that we could distribute with some of your contacts um Skyler and Tasha great any further discussion or action on this item I personally don't feel like we need action I think we all have access to Skyler and Keras and they've been very flexible in terms of taking feedback but if anybody feels like we want to make any marching orders clear on a vote happy to hear um happy to take a motion at this time this is an emotion but I just wanted a second uh the idea of having to make it a video kind of like attaching that with it because yeah I think that's just brilliant personally because me and we do everyone those watch the things at their own time you know and uh so I think I'd be great way to go about it I also think scholars idea of just um maybe just kind of giving like a quick little um I can't find the word here just kind of like explaining the process you know maybe not going into full detail in the mpa meeting because as we've already said you know it should be more than just an agenda item but I think just a little piece to get to funnel them into the town meeting would be I think it's honestly an excellent way to go about and Skyler to add to that if you did want to do more in any of the I do have um I use I don't use mirror I use mirror um which is funny maybe given our own fearless leader name um but um I'm happy to do any of the I'm happy to help facilitate in any of the other I would want to do it for my own npa given that that's kind of a close relationship but happy to do it for any of the other ones if we're trying to preserve to leave this time for yeah and I think that now that I think about it the video might be helpful just because currently we're trying to do the town hall I think before I before some of the nevermind I'm my brain is fried yeah all good okay so uh since I came up with the explainer video I just want to clarify I heard it loud and clear from a few joint committee members that it will be an explainer video the process in which Talitha is contracted to do good all right um oh goodness sorry I've missed two q&a questions um so again I'll go through the process of I'll unmute folks first to see if they want to speak and if not so Vermont Racial Justice Alliance um if you would like to comment you are now permitted if not I will read it yeah it's it's pretty much straightforward I thank you counselor high tower and good evening to all of you uh special shout out to uh skyler for the hard work he's putting in on this project and and also Talitha those consultants that just keep showing up um so this is um this is pretty amazing work I sat in on one eight and uh one eight was amazing I'm just probably other folks on that we're at one eight so I can't you know just seeing all of this stuff coming to fruition is is really blowing my mind so I just you know mark is happy tonight I'm just sitting here watching eating my popcorn um but I think the um as as we were talking about outreach and so forth this is just the point of you know it is I know it's really really tough it's really tough out there just in and I go to NPAs when we can and you know those of us who were in black and brown new american uh uh or otherwise are usually not in the house one eight or two three and I can tell you that for a fact uh so it's hard it's hard anyway um but as far as outreach is concerned definitely you know those posters and all that other stuff but I was just sitting here thinking how do we take social media because there's a lot of folks that are on social media that are not they will not be in an NPA and you will not find them on front porch forum and you will not so there's but there might be some breadcrumbs that you can lay out for folks to come over because at the end of the day what is it it's a zoom session right so maybe we could just put a shout out over in the um you know on on instagram or you know if karima wants to teach a dance on tiktok or something like that um and then we could just bring folks you know invite folks over to the uh the NPAs uh through that through that route so it's all right thanks thanks for the time this this is where I'll plug the reib office that is overseeing this contract does now have a twitter account uh at btv reib uh and so we can certainly utilize we can certainly utilize that more often and then also I think we'll be um hoping that some of our community partners like uh you know the rja uh and others will be able to help us amplify that to get it to like you said non-traditional um NPA or non-traditional residents that are not usually engaged in NPAs great um next up glenn I have permitted you to speak if you want to um give us that information verbally and then if not glenn has said from this it sounds like one of the outcomes of the commission could suggest is that Burlington create guidance on what community engagement means and the different methods and tools we expect any process to use the city is not a stranger to these efforts a massive program of engagement by the former united wavering county was able to engage thousands of residents in a process well over a year in length that produced a map toward a health community while this is dated is foundational would be great to acknowledge that the community has asked many these questions in the past knowing has been said whether there is continuity continuity or departure on these themes would be useful for future action so thank you for that glenn great so with that I would move us unless any other folks have any other thoughts to the next item on our agenda great so closing item three and moving on to equitable sharing I know some folks have to jump off so Karen and or Stephanie if you had any thoughts before you needed to go and thank you to let the for your presentation I'm good sir I thanks for asking great and I think Karen might already be gone great any so there's not really a presentation um shireen actually I'll just let you speak for yourself shireen in terms of we had circulated the information that I believe folks had asked for on equitable sharing and people wanted the opportunity to look it over and so there I don't have an agenda on it it was just carried over to this month so um anyone who wanted had the opportunity to review the data that was shared but if there were specific questions I've on the data I might direct you know I might take notes and bring them back or or put you in direct contact with the individual. Hi this is Milo I have a quick question um what does administrative mean again? They had two types on the report criminal and administrative and civil oh go ahead shireen no I'm sorry I just didn't I didn't hear you as a right what did you say oh I said and civil so so um administrative forfeiture there doesn't have to be a case associated at the time and I'm not an expert so I'm just I'm sort of regurgitating what I was told on this but administrative is a more automatic process in the sense that notice goes out there's an opportunity to assert an interest but there isn't necessarily a legal case it could lead to a legal case but it doesn't have to. Great and that's Audrey I don't know if you wanted to jump in with a definition it's been a while since you wrote the memo but um you do want to you are a co-host now but yeah so I think go ahead Audrey. Oh sorry it's not allowing me to share my videos still for whatever reason which is totally fine um but yes basically administrative is what it's called when it's when no action is taking to pursue it in court um so basically if it's a civil forfeiture case or a criminal forfeiture case must like have come from common skin property like associated with a person or with an actual defendant civil does not and if no one contests that in court then it becomes like administrative especially for like certain um one's involving certain number amount of money or um under certain circumstances that's just the label for it more less. So we don't know so we really don't know if it says administrative we really don't know the reason why it was taken. Well early if I may um in any like it's a form of civil so they would still say like why which is an action against the property and so they would still say what um illegal activity is alleged that that property was part of um or aided in and so that would be the reason given um in administrative proceeding so there would be a reason given in an administrative proceeding correct it's just that when it's a any sort of civil forfeiture it's not an action specifically against a person tied to it at all whereas like criminal forfeiture is so what would be an example of a civil forfeiture if it's not criminal I guess I'm trying to understand going back to my previous example um about class action lawsuits that have been filed at the federal level because it dealt specifically they've dealt specifically with money that has been confiscated at airports no charges ever brought against an individual they were just traveling with very large amounts of cash and somebody at the airport didn't like their story took their money never gave it back and their money was literally being distributed and I just want to know could we be getting funds like that like how do we we tell when when when there's been no no wrongdoing because it's not illegal to travel with the amounts of cash that these individuals were traveling with they just didn't like their story at the airport and I think it was confiscated like they bring DA agents in and they just like take the money and they literally have to file a suit the government to get it back so that's why I'm kind of curious with these these labels like if it's not if it's administrative was it at one point actually associated with the charge or do you understand what I'm asking I think so there's a charge either way it's just whether or not it's technically against a person and I think that still has to be announced and labeled as such but just like as a sidetrack kind of thing if it's because I know there had been questions earlier about whether or not like Vermont was receiving any funds from monies from those types of actions like in another state and Vermont can't receive funds from civil assets for future we don't the equitable sharing isn't sharing with those types of seizures in other states it's just sharing with the federal government for those seizures in Vermont that's not okay yeah okay that's good to know that that's clear and so then I guess I'm kind of curious do we I mean I haven't heard of any stories in Vermont but that doesn't mean they don't exist do we know if we confiscate cash at our airports in Vermont at the Burlington International Airport or any other airport in Vermont I don't know I don't believe so based on the information that was shared with the committee earlier from the police department and I believe commissioner Hart's report but if you give me a moment I do know there are a very limited number of cases in which Vermont law allows Vermont law enforcement law enforcement agencies to participate in asset for future some states require like or basically allow any sorts of civil proceedings and Vermont's are very specific give me a moment I can go and double check I looked into this a little bit ago grant I think the most direct way to get the answer would probably be to be in direct contact with because this is the federal one so we equitable sharing in the context we're talking about is in the federal context and I think your your best way to answer your question would be to pose that question directly to the folks at the U.S. Attorney's Office and I can give you contact information if you want and I did find the law for Vermont if anyone is interested in this it's 8 title 18 of Vermont statutes annotated section 42 41 and or 13 PSA section 364 and so under Vermont law forfeiture can be applied in instances of possession and control of related of regulated drugs only when the violation carries by law a maximum penalty of 10 or more years of incarceration or for participation in fighting exhibition of animals select dog fighting type additionally for any asset to be subject to forfeiture in Vermont there must be either there must be a criminal conviction conviction or the defendant must have entered into an agreement with the prosecutor relating to as much so they are no longer charged with the criminal offense and the state law places the burden of proof on the state to provide clear and convincing evidence that property in question is an instrument of or represents the proceeds of an underlying offense there's a lower bar in general that applies at the federal level but Vermont can't take part in that and so basically like because it's the federal sharing the federal sharing is because the federal agency signed on to it in some fashion but not we're not taking any portion of just federal at large with no Vermont agency and what Vermont has jurisdiction over I don't know okay okay so so it's okay I got it because I know we talked before about certain cases that Vermont received federal assistance on and so therefore certain funds were made available through that okay that is more clarifying thank you very much I have a question as well and Audrey I do not mean to make you be the one to answer these because I know that you're not an expert in this so if you don't know or if you don't know now I think it's just I guess I was expecting based on the Vermont that we saw these to be mostly criminal and so I was surprised to see that they were mostly administrative because I thought that because of the way that we had the law that I would need to come with a conviction anyway so I guess I don't completely understand what you're in so in administrative what they're a lot of people just don't they don't contest it if they it could become part of a criminal case where it would follow it would follow the criminal case but in an administrative generally speaking it's where they give the notice and my sense from speaking with the individual at the US attorneys in in most cases someone is not asserting an interest and that's how it's resolved is there is no assertion in the you know the monies or something of that sort and so it doesn't proceed into a criminal it doesn't go into follow the criminal case so if my understanding is if they asserted an interest it would become you know it would become a criminal case where it would follow the case so they would never have the assets wouldn't how do I explain this you need a conviction or a resolution of the criminal case before the issue of the assets would be resolved as well but in administrative it's much it's much more streamlined like the administrative designation kind of attaches to the confiscation of the property not to the rest of the case even though they're like conjoined and that's how it becomes civil or criminal like the administrative portion is just in regards to the property so someone like could be contesting the criminal conviction or just even if it's a civil conviction if there's a person involved and then therefore a criminal asset forfeiture still the seizure of the assets could be designated like administrative if that portion of it isn't contested is my understanding yeah so now I have more questions so administrative is is not a plea deal if it was a plea deal it would show criminal or civil is that correct that's my understanding yes I mean that's nine as well but I'm not in this okay so administrative would be holding on to somebody's money when there's been no criminal case could be is my understanding but you know I really don't want to answer and be wrong on these so I think if you have questions that get deeper Milo you should we should probably put you in contact with the resource on it because I just I don't want to mislead and give bad information at this point right and if you also want to um send me an email too I can also like try to contact those people or just read the laws more deepers and give you a more a fuller response I would I'd like to yeah I'd love to get like a formal definition of administrative I mean if administrative is not tied to an actual criminal case or even a plea deal um and and what does it take for individuals to to make a claim to to get that back right do they have to have some type of resources if they don't have to get access to get that back so I'll send you a resource that that explains each of the three okay feel free to reach out to our office with any specific questions or if you want us to facilitate a conversation with anyone else we're happy to do that yeah I was wondering if that might be the best next course of action is over the next I guess I'll give folks one week until next Monday if folks have specific questions maybe we can send them to Audrey and then Audrey and Joy can work together to get these questions answered does that sound like an okay next step for folks that sounds fun to me thank you happy to do that thank you Joy and Audrey great because this conversation I know has been kind of a long time running so if we can articulate our questions and get this wrapped up um I think that would be really helpful any other thoughts on this item specifically oh and sorry my bad and that was discussion if folks we kind of skipped over public forum so if anybody wants to speak on the item of equitable sharing in the public please raise your hand not seeing anyone I'll turn to the last item which is the cna contract update from the administration so Kyle and Darren I will promote you to panelists yeah I'm showing up uh Zariah but when I go to turn my video on it says you cannot start your video because the host has disabled it all right I have to make you a co-host so uh I understood from earlier conversation offline Zariah that uh Darren was going to be introduced want to do that first or and you want Darren are you we have Kyle Dawson with us who's the director of police transformation and Darren Springer who's the director now I do not actually know your correct title but he was part of the Burlington Electric department are you there Darren can you speak are you do you have uh I'm here Kyle can you hear me yep I hear you excellent would you like me to go sure maybe Darren just uh introduce yourself and then I'll give the background great hi everybody good evening I'm Darren Springer general manager with Burlington Electric department also Burlington resident here in the new north end and uh new to this part of this conversation I'm glad to be with you all tonight great so just a quick background I think people know this but perhaps not but more or less from I think the time that Morell appointed me as a director of police transformation it was always his intention that I would represent the administration in the city just as the facilitator of the operational and functional assessment but given a whole series of events and circumstances we have not yet kicked off that contract and my tenure is coming to an end to an end very soon so it would not make sense for me to begin it because I will be transitioning back to the why so therefore the mayor need to find someone else from the administration to represent and certainly part of the mix people won't be surprised is trying to find someone who sort of shows up as pretty neutral as it relates to the issues Darren has very ably done his work over at the electric department and has not been particularly engaged in or invested in these conversations so really he's representing a competent administrative entity who can take care of all the pieces that need to be taken care of be available do the communication back and forth outreach help the consultants access the things they need to access so Darren will be doing that just to give people an update a signed copy on behalf of the city of the contract went to cna today and cna was waiting for that hopefully there'll be a quick turnaround so ideally and I don't believe there are many impediments there will be an opportunity to have a signed contract and start engaging with the program manager so you might imagine the consultant has kind of two angles they got their legal department so there's someone we're dealing with as the contract manager and they're kind of front and center now but as soon as that park is taken care of the program manager who the person I'm dealing with is if you all have the proposal is Brittany Cunningham so they're there were kind of co-people there was a woman named Julie and then Brittany Cunningham so I had started communicating with Brittany Cunningham and she's now in touch with Darren so I think that's where we are but I'd certainly be happy to answer any questions that people have any commissioners with questions or comments it looks like there is a email from the mayor in our inboxes at 520 unless as well go ahead that email should please as you said that email should cover pretty much the same ground I don't believe there's much in there that I didn't share correct was there anyone else in the queue or is it just me so far just you yeah so I did give the email a little bit or you know I tried to read through the details before the meeting I'm pretty perplexed by this decision and that's not at all like a reflection on your work you know Darren you know it's not a question of sort of your yeah the work that you've managed it's just for me perplexing that the council authorized a resolution that from my understanding put you know the racial equity inclusion and belonging office in charge of this proposal and then now it's going through the electric department I just I just I feel I just feel so perplexed I don't even know it's just absolutely bizarre to me it doesn't seem like what it seems neither what the council authorized which I think technically you know the administration has the authority to make a different decision but doesn't really seem like great public process and doesn't really I think at least from my perspective like lend a lot of trust in the process and how this will be managed going forward if they're it's just it's just sort of bizarre like I wasn't asked my it's just really bizarre and then so neither that makes sense to me nor the decision to put this in the hands of the Wellington Electric Department it seems like a really natural fit to have the racial equity inclusion belonging office as part of this I really hope that there's a good faith effort to continue to include that office and all the folks who are working in that office in this process I think I hear like the language around like a neutral party but that to me sets off a lot of red flags honestly and yeah I don't I don't I just don't feel good about where we've landed on this I'm just going to be completely honest thanks Perry and I apologize I should have before going to the commissioners opened this up for public forum specifically so with any folks from the public um have any thoughts feel free to raise your hand and I apologize for missing that Jess you're enabled hi my name is Justine she her pronouns I've spoken with this body before and I am no longer an immediate resident in Burlington but still really involved didn't care about these issues um I asked a question in the Q&A which is kind of a very basic question but I'm just a little bit I know that this is kind of an administrative it's framed as an administrative decision but I'm deeply frustrated that somebody moving into a position to oversee this contract wouldn't be somebody with either long-term experience or some of the experience that Kyle gained over his tenure in specifically public safety and policing and alternative methods of public safety and as a member of the public the this entire contract wouldn't be happening if it wasn't for public involvement and public outcry and I'm just a bit concerned that there wasn't public involvement also in decisions related to how to move forward with this um so I think it's I think it's purely strategic to position it as an administrative move rather than um actually giving thought and bringing in the kind of leadership that is needed um internally to manage complex issues like this thank you Jess any other folks from public forum seeing none um anyone from the commission um oh I have more but if other people no you can you can go ahead Perry I'll jump in it's fine I can I can circle back okay this is Milo Grant um I too have some concerns and I also want to stress I don't know Darren so this is not any kind of criticism against him personally am I allowed to ask Darren a question certainly it will be up to him if he answers always so my question for Darren um you know stepping into this position what do you plan to do in order to I guess for lack of a better description to to get up to speed um for someone who's not been involved in the conversation um I have I have deep concerns as as well I agree with um what was just said um about this could you give us any insight as to how much you've been following the discussion or if you've not been following the discussion at all uh do you plan to review previous meetings for the police commission and also for the joint um committee glad to answer the question um as I mentioned I'm a Burlington resident I'm department head part of the city team so I followed this discussion for the last number of years um I'm not as intimately involved with it as all of you I'm not the expert I'm not attempting to be the expert I don't think that's the role that I'm supposed to play here um I do have significant experience managing rfp processes managing significant contracts ensuring that deliverables are provided uh that and I've had a number of experiences working with consultants and what I've done is reviewed the materials with cna reviewed the rfp that was issued by the city and looked at the different things that they are supposed to get done over a fairly uh quick period of time and I my plan would be uh to engage with them uh with you with all the different uh pieces that are involved in that scope of work and ensure that they deliver that they talk with the different constituencies and groups and experts and community leaders that are envisioned in the rfp that they deliver the analysis and the data uh review and the document review and the peer review that they're supposed to do has laid out in the contract and that that's provided and that I can be as fair uh as possible in administering that and as communicative and transparent as possible and that's what I would try to bring to the table go ahead come thanks um I'm just curious for common understanding what um what the expectation is of this individual for this role not Darren it has not been asked to be the director of transformation he's only been asked to administer this and what the expectation is about uh administering it when I spoke to the consultant they were very clear that um they at times deliver news to a client that any particular stakeholder uh might not like they never waver they don't change they don't back down so so I'm not sure what the necessity is of this person to have expertise because we're paying a hundred thousand dollars for someone else to have expertise so my sense is this person is should be from our perspective nothing more than a facilitator a go between I was thinking that we wanted to have this group of experts do the work in a way that's subjective that's informed by best practices that's informed by that depth of expertise that people are asking about and then give us the answers and then we do with it what we will but I wouldn't imagine we were looking for anybody to interpret or tell the consultants what to do it's purely access and administration I thought but maybe maybe I had that wrong so I'm not sure why one would need to be an expert except have administrative competence not have specific policing expertise uh or community expertise or any of those expertise because that's why I thought we hired this uh this group but I may have that wrong well we also uh excuse me this is me though again um if everyone doesn't mind uh coming in so uh we initially thought you would be a part of this process all the way through it right so you're a known quantity with the role that you have played and once again no offense to Darren suddenly Darren's dropped in our lap right he's like dropped in our lap out of nowhere so we don't know him as a quantity and just seeking clarification which I feel we have a right to do and I think also you know we throw around that word expertise so what expertise are we expecting him to have or not have what um knowledge uh I I feel pretty strongly um you know I think I have to apologize the the email was um forwarded to me uh by someone else so I I read it briefly but I think the word that has been uh used is quote unquote contentious um although I don't want to get into a whole long thing right now I I kind of disagree with the the use of that word and and there are various reasons why um to I I guess if we are just going to stick to what's in the RFP and then as part of that RFP there are going to be talking to quote unquote all the stakeholders anyway then I I don't know I guess I'm concerned about it's just a certain aspect starting too much from scratch I don't know I guess there's a better way for me to put it I'll have to think on that but um that's all I wanted to say thank you and I'll jump in now as well which I guess I just want to also have some kind of statement on this is I I was really hoping that this would stay in the REIB department not least because the Burlington Police Department is going to be a close collaborator on this um on this assessment no matter what like because a lot of the information is going to come from the police department and so they're going to be closely involved and so I was hoping to have a formal role for the REIB kind of as a counter to that that we really have two departments who have very different viewpoints just as heavily involved kind of in the execution of this contract because I do think that there is some like there's some there's politics involved in this and to the extent that that politics can be done openly and transparently so that we can all have faith in the end conclusion I think is extremely important I am not I don't that is the reason I would prefer to have it in REIB I'm not saying that that can't happen with Darren managing this in the Burlington Electric Department but I think that it will take more work on the part of the administration to make sure that it is transparent and that it is balanced and so I have talked to the mayor about this I've expressed that concern um and I hope that I mean Kyle you won't necessarily be there but um just want to make sure I think that it will be important how this assessment is done for it to feel um like it is a balanced assessment that we can all have faith in the results in and move forward based on those results and Darren as I I have had the opportunity to have a conversation with Darren about this so I will be quiet for the rest of the thing and let other commissioners ask questions and have comments go ahead uh Chabu okay uh so I hear Kyle's uh I hear Kyle's uh comments on how Darren just can be you know just facilitating this I also hear Perry's um side of it as well too which makes me lead to believe I think it would have been the smart decision to put this in REIB's hands um they've at least kind of been with us for the process um since the beginning and I feel like I don't know I feel the optics are a little weird on this one um like there's like no disrespect for you Darren by enemies at all um it just I don't know um it could be at least seen as not looking kind of funny from the outside um if you're not on the inside on this one that's just my thoughts hi this is uh Milo Grant again um it looks funny to me on the inside um I I I'm concerned about losing operational knowledge we've just discussed so much over the last few months and um that's just a really big concern that I have I I I think um I guess there's some I guess like why have um REIB manage one contract but not the other I mean it really makes sense that it it go there so I just wanted to say that thank you Taylor do you mind if I ask you a question I'm just wondering if there's been any discussion with your office about capacity in terms of everything that's on your you know is it a given that your office has the capacity to take this on uh I would say yes um yeah I would say yes I just didn't want to make any presumptions without knowing that we had checked in with your office thank you great if no one has anything else um I I have oh sorry very good so sorry um why was director green and the well the racial inclusion equity inclusion belonging office REIB director green taken off the project I mean I do see as um commissioner grant mentioned in the email there's like this one line that says and of course I can't find the tab among all my tabs of the email but I just thought I had opened one second um what is the line it says independent department head who has been neutral and separate from the contentious debates in recent months over proper officer staffing what why why has the REIB ID office been removed as the managing party in this in this contract that's not a that's not a rhetorical question director dot said that you want to answer that if the chair will allow it director dot said if you want to answer the question or if you know the answer to the question it would be conjecture on my part my understanding is the mayor has had a number of conversations and I'm loath to speak for those conversations um as to um you know the particulars okay um so I'll make like one last um comment on this um since I think we'll probably move on from it but um um it is extremely bizarre to me to like we have painted Black Lives Matter on Main Street right and you have a Black woman who has been contracted with the city who is a position with the city to assist to assist and guide racial equity work which is a lot to ask to like not have white people be doing in the city and to put that ownership on someone else to do that work so you're you know I mean that in and of itself has like issues and then not only are you so you've created the situation and then when it comes to actual agency and actual decision making power which is how structural equity works and anti-oppression work happens you remove that person from a position of power a position of agency and a position of decision making and on a structural level just forget all the particulars the personalities on a structural level that that just it doesn't sit right with me so I I think we're going to go forward with the project with the contract with um being managed in this way um you know we will move forward with that new reality but I just wanted to um to speak my sort of my feeling on on that aspect so thank you for creating the space around this discussion. All right go ahead Trin. This is Jess I have to go back to my previous comment I did not see Taisha still on the the screen so I apologize that I directed it to Skyler and not to Director Green I just didn't see her name on the screen so that's my fault and I should have directed it to the director that's all. It's okay Commissioner Hart. Great any other thoughts or before we close that item? Uh yes I wonder if I could ask um does not have to answer if they're not comfortable answering the question but what does Director Green think about this decision? That that is uh that is a question Commissioner Grant um I think that I am just going to say that this was a mayor's decision to make and this is this decision that he made. Okay thank you um so can I ask the chair can we get um I pulled up the email that was sent I would like to know from the mayor why he chose to pull this out of REIB is that a formal question we can ask him to respond to? I am happy to ask him that question and either to respond in writing or to come to the next meeting the committee would like. Thank you I would definitely appreciate that I think he needs to really address that question thank you. Happy to do that um sorry Kyle I saw your hand up as well. Yeah I'll just try to provide for what it's worth while mentioning what I think is in the mix. I believe the idea was to as much as possible have an entity who manages the contract that isn't associated with a particular perspective as it relates to the trust. Now you know my learning in the position has been that acceptance of that role from me has had its limitations but it does seem clear at least as it relates to REIB that you know Taisha is clear how she believes in what she says and she speaks and does her you know good work in the community and there's also the police and beyond those very simplistic individuals there are stakeholders that in the community perhaps who closely to one or the other and as it relates to our community being able to move forward the idea that any of the onlookers who are more aligned with a particular vision for where the community goes would present challenges to the ideal which would be something that the consultants give us that um is as objective as possible and then we have to do with it what we will. There is a question and people have asked those questions I think it's a reasonable question of whether people accept Darren as being that person but I think that was the idea was as much as possible to create that so that the contract assessment stands on its own and doesn't appear to be associated with anyone I see from this conversation that uh there are those who don't accept that but that I believe was at least the drive behind it. Great um Perry if we can start to wrap up. I'm so sorry I know I have a lot of thoughts on this I didn't address this earlier but I it came back up again so I just want to um address it really quickly and um just the aspect of neutrality um there there isn't neutrality does not exist in this um in this that's that's um I don't know how to explain it but it seems like a like a logical fallacy like basically you're saying on a spectrum of you know like what like speaking about the officer staffing levels versus like agreeing with the department stands on the officers staffing levels those are not neutral either of those are neutral so you're saying that we are putting someone in a position who is perceived as being friendlier to the department's position that's objectively I don't think that's neutral I don't think we should speak about this as if we are trading like neutrality versus like both you can't be neutral on a on a moving train this is like I'm sorry I'm Howard Zenko but there's no neutral in this situation so I understand um maybe I I think I kind of get what you're saying but I don't think that's that's actually possible I guess um and I know you want to wrap up the conversation and so I'm sorry I'm just I hear that very just I was I was clear not to use the language of neutral but objective and I I do hope that our community to the degree that we don't possess the expertise that we do want objectivity from CNN they're going to use science that we don't have just let's take for the staffing they're going to put metrics in there about intensity and severity and volume that we don't have those those calculations to make and that will be more objective than I'll say than me and I think anyone in our community can apply so I think we are looking for reasonable science and objectivity from cna now what the interface is a different thing but but I do hope our community and the commission and the council all want cna at a large amount of money and we keep talking about it that their thing should be fairly objective from the wants and desires of anyone in our community it's not about what we want and desire except a state of the art 21st century best practices police department and they're going to bring all their research in and say we don't care what Burlington does you guys pay us no matter what we're just going to give you some information and you do with it what you will so I so I hope that that part suggests great so we've had Randall with their hand raised and Jordan the chief of staff and then just the port has been waiting to get back into queue Randall do you want to I saw in the comments what Jordan is going to say that the mayor would be available at eight would you like to wait or would you like to give your comment now my comment can be quick is it's just a hope in addition to asking for for the information it's just a hope that we understand management of the contract to strictly refer to getting information from the consultants to this body which is I take it ultimately responsible for implementing any suggestions accepting them not accepting them things like that and so I mean I saw certainly hope that we understand management of the contract to not entail also implementing any recommendations that have been proposed and with that understanding that I think might assuage some of the concerns people have which is not to speak to any of the concerns that have been raised great thank you Randall um Milo same question I would be I I feel like if folks have concerns about this that it might make sense to take a nine minute break very quick wait wait for the mayor to come on if folks have specific questions for him does that seem like a good course of action or that's okay with me great then I apologize I know this meeting is longer than we anticipated I will I will if I guess is that a voting thing I forget yeah if you're gonna take a recess you should have a vote on it great um I'd love a motion to take a nine minute recess then go ahead Trine yeah I just I moved that we take a recess until 8 p.m. right thank you moved by commissioner Hart seconded by commissioner Freeman um any discussion all those in favor please say aye hi I enough people on I didn't even check we do we have six okay great thank you um all those opposed please say nay great that passes unanimously we are recessed until 8 p.m. so it doesn't look Jordan is the mayor with you or oh I see him on now I will right and as we come back just want to um remind folks to I'm going to be a little bit tighter um on asking to speak and whatnot so and try to keep statements short I will um allow commissioner to ask questions then I'll quickly go back to public forum uh mayor Weinberger do you feel like you're up to date on the conversation we've had up till now would you like a quick summary or um I got a series of texts I think I I think I um understand the discussion this question's why I've asked uh my right counselor chair high tower and thinking basically like an explanation is why I made a scientist uh Darren sprayer correct so um this is my thinking and uh before coming down on this I did had we had a lot of internal conversation about it with uh with uh all department heads involved and uh several discussions with uh chair high tower and um basically uh my thinking is this um this is a assessment that um is very important for the future of the city um it's one in which I think it makes sense to remove it from the police department and not have the police department assessing themselves which is a point uh the chair um made strongly in our conversations and uh makes sense to me I think there would be sort of institutional uh perspective there that could be problematic for being sort of the main the client if you will um and um uh I did consider having the study done by the REIB department uh and uh ultimately felt that uh REIB should be very involved in this project uh does have a perspective certainly Taisha Green as a perspective Skyler Nash has a perspective um I want this perspective to be brought to bear on the report and them to be free to share them with the consultants I think it could be challenging for them to engage as a stakeholder like that and be leading the effort so I was really looking for a neutral party to be um leading this effort and I thought uh Darren with um his uh position which doesn't really have an institutional kind of perspective on this and his long history managing um variety of sort of comparable important studies uh for the city um and as someone who um you know just has has long uh relationships with sort of across the various partisan lines and within the city I thought he was a good choice for that and that's the charge that um I've given him great do any of the commissioners have questions or comments I see Milo go ahead thank you um so mayor I guess my question would be is it sounds like you didn't trust REIB to be independent and their management of this particular RFP so why would that be so uh commissioner uh that using the word suggesting trust like that I don't think is is is at all what what I'm saying what um I do think I I have a lot of trust in the REIB department I have a great deal of faith in in director Green and scholar Nash director Green is he part of my management team is involved in essentially all the major decisions the administration makes I have a great deal of trust um I um think it is critical that this I think it's really clear that we have a city that has um divisions and different viewpoints on the future of policing in the city and we have a real a lot of work ahead of us and it's really the group on this zoom that is going to you know all of us um the administration the commission the council that have to kind of forge a new consensus and out of out of difference right now and a real difference of opinion and for that reason it was compelling to me that uh when councilor hightower um you know again in the I think we had you know two or three conversations leading up to this email I said to you today um she and I um it was compelling to me her point that this report would not be trusted by the public would not be would not be assumed that it was a kind of impartial report if it was the police department leading it um I I do have concerns that there might be questions about the report and questions about the conclusions of the report if it is seen as being kind of guided only through the lens of racial equity racial justice clearly racial justice is a critical lens and one that must be brought to bear and I am absolutely counting on director green and her team um to be weighing in um on the report um I think if that is seen as sort of guiding the report overseeing the whole report I think there could be kind of the similar kind of questions about the um about the fairness and and the impartiality of it which I think is critical if this is going to be accepted and you know it's going to become a document that leads to that new new consensus but I guess I'm a little concerned that you don't see the flip side you you so you don't have trust on one end well you also don't have trust on the other end um because and once again nothing personal against mr springer I don't know him I and and and I don't know how much he really has been following uh these issues because he hasn't been on these meetings you're dropping him in the middle of something and it could and he doesn't have you know hours and hours and hours of of the meetings and and the questions that have come up the questions that have come up from from the the commission from the joint committee uh the issues that have been brought up about from the police department you know to not have heard all these discussions and then to you know the management of the rfp could easily um I mean I know we want it's understood we want objective information but we also want to make sure that they are going to be covering all the aspects of the rfp as given to them and someone that's been part of the conversation all along will be able to make sure that all those points are taken whereas someone who's just being dropped into it now I'm not sure he'll be able to do that and I think it's all in a very difficult and very quite frankly uncomfortable spot you know we need people to believe in the process and at the bare minimum as opposed to having one manager over it if you if you need to bring you feel you need to bring someone else and then you need to have um r e i b be like a co-manager on it at the bare minimum well commissioner thank you for that perspective uh the the co-manager as I see it is really um this body is the is the um uh is this joint committee and um certainly the the way the process is laid out and expected to run is that um first of all I think you'll find uh uh Darren spring would be a very competent administrator and very responsive and hard working and and uh thorough um just the kind of uh a manager I think you would want um playing the kind of city point person role in this project um and the rfp the work that's been done the rfp the contract really lays out a lot of the parameters for what's expected of the consultant to the degree that they deviate from this and are not doing what is expected as this unfolds there will be multiple uh check-ins points um which the report will be coming back to this body and and recalibrations uh readjust adjustments can be made and uh that's that's built into the process and you know and again uh it is absolutely expected that both that the police r e i b um numerous other stakeholders will uh weigh in and be um part of creation of this report no way um are they uh not going to be part of it Milo do you have a follow-up or yeah I'm just trying to think about how to word this um so we have a situation with the Talitha contract and since director Dobson's position's coming to an end someone has to finish that contract correct my understanding is that contract is I believe being managed by r e i b and there's no transition there so why trust them with that contract but not the other there again I object to the suggestion that that I don't somehow trust area r e i b that's again that is not all the case so it is a very this is a document that gets into the assessment of the future of the police department I think it's critical I think it's going to be a more successful document if it's um uh if then if it is being managed by a neutral party in the same way that I don't believe the police department would be seen as a neutral party I think if r e i b were to be managing this it would be seen that the document was coming from a very strong important perspective and there are other perspectives that need to be part of this as well I actually think this frees r e b r e i b as some I've expressed multiple times to director green and to Skyler is I think that this role as opposed to a role that's sort of like the chair in the same way that a chair can't kind of weigh in in the debate um as they are managing a process I think this is actually a process that this structure allows them to weigh in um more freely so okay so this is kind of difficult there is a really huge issue of trust and the way that this is being handled doesn't to me feel um I don't trust this process I don't feel that this decision was made with uh transparency I wish we were also involved in the conversation previously um I feel that it's to me if you're going to trust r e i b with one contract you should trust them with the other contract you know why is it you don't feel that they can be neutral or you know they can be neutral in one but not neutral in the other who do you believe would perceive them not to be neutral you know again uh commissioner it's a it's a it's a very divided city and um I know that I think that neutrality is key here and I think so who's there forgive me for interrupting you I I have a very specific question like your definition of neutral can concerns me um either you have faith in that office or or you or you don't it doesn't you know dropping mr springer in the middle of this without him having participated in all of these meetings I just feel does a disservice to him I I you know it puts him in a position that um is going to be difficult to come back from right because you want him to be neutral he's not going to be perceived as being neutral because he doesn't have all the knowledge quite frankly that I think he needs I think it's really important to know um all the discussions that have been occurring um I think it's very important to know what quote unquote stakeholders have been expressing on the side of the police and on the side of the joint committee and on the side of the police commission so I think that you need to really review the the the concept of trust as you see it and this concept of neutrality as you see it because I think a lot of people are not going to feel that that's going to be the best way forward um maybe not all people but I feel a lot of people are not going to feel that that's the best way for it it feels to me like a rug is being you know pulled from under us you know be this late in the game and like oh we're going to pop somebody in it and they're just going to take care of everything administratively it's unfortunately it doesn't work that way it it does not and has not fully worked that way there's just so many moving pieces and parts and and questions and and making sure that we we get from you know all aspects I just I just got a lot of um concerns and I will end it there in case anybody else would like to offer their feedback thank you thank you commissioner grant um mayor one where if you would like to say anything else to that before I jump to someone else I um I think the only thing I would add is um I it is been I don't think we're actually late in the process here I mean this is um one of the I think as I stated in my communication to you I think there's there's been a I think I think we're all frustrated with how long it has taken to get this study to the point where we're even starting it and part of my effort here is to I think one of the things that has contributed to that is sort of a lack of of clarity about roles and responsibilities and that is um it is the administration's job to get work done and that it it is in that um uh capacity that um I'm trying to actually take a process that I think that has been um given given the challenges we've had getting to this point I think if the administration isn't clear about how it's going to move forward with the work we could see this continued um I think having clarity about uh Darren stepping in here and playing this role uh and and running it um I'm hopeful is going to uh get us to an outcome we can all feel good about and that gets us the answers that we uh are seeking sorry sorry committee member grant I think that was enough of a back and forth if you don't mind me jumping to another commissioner if anybody sure thanks um if other folks have a have questions or comments or thoughts on the committee seeing go ahead Perry thank you um I think you know I've I said this before but but since you're um I'll just say it quickly again um there's just there were a lot of bizarre things that I heard um in those comments I think one of the and one of the stranger aspects was around how it shouldn't be I don't know exactly how you phrased it but like it shouldn't be only focused on anti-racist work or it can't and I just if I don't understand how like how can we not have anti-racist work be completely center and like central to this process like I just don't understand what the opposite of that is that just seems concerning and maybe it was a matter of semantics in the way that you explained it but I think it to me also like indicated like a a larger issue that I'm having with this around what we're actually centering and the direction that we're like the reason why largely we are doing this assessment largely is because of systemic racism perpetuated by the Burlington Police Department that is like I mean there are other things like you can look at intersections of mental health of class of the relationship with um you know the opioid crisis there there's certainly other elements that come into you know the the structure in the nature of policing and how to do that better um but certainly certainly the primary focus has been the issues of systemic racism so to not center anti-racism work into kind of like talk around it or or not say that we're like we're looking to dismantle white supremacy and racism in the Burlington Police Department just like that just seems bizarre to not center that I think it's also odd to frame this as like somehow we're doing the REIV office like a favor by not giving them this work um that they're suddenly like gonna just get to do all this other stuff I think and this is what I said before is that it concerns me when we talk about structural equity and creating structural equity that we that means giving actual decision making power to people and agency to people so to take agency and decision making decision making power away from the REIV office um which is directed by a black woman who is like an extensive history and expertise in doing anti-racist work and giving it to the Burlington Electric Department general manager who is a white man who has none and I don't know your entire CV so I am not trying to like miss speak or anything but I don't believe that you have like um like decades of experience and anti-racism um diversity and equity work um and that's not like a criticism of your expertise or your CV it's just you know different different worlds so I that just it just feels really um it feels uncomfortable I'm disappointed by it I wish that there was a different outcome I don't like it seems like this is the decision that you've made and that's what we're gonna move forward with I just wish that it had um that it wasn't happening I wish that it happened differently. Councillor Freeman I appreciate your candor and your directness. I am eager to move forward in a way that makes this a trusted process and I've had conversations with Councillor Hightower about how that can be done and will continue to consult with Councillor Hightower to try to ensure that that's the outcome and that that this is conducted in a way that that ultimately this committee has confidence in. I do um I must say I don't fully agree with your characterization of why this work is is is happening and I think that's work goes to kind of the tension here which is um I believe a big from my perspective a big part of the reason that this work is happening and was funded in in the budget and uh is that um a majority of the council made a decision to cut the department um by 30 to reduce that size um and I agree that I believe one of the motivations maybe the main motivation for doing that was one view of um racial justice and racial justice in the future of policing um it is uh my belief and I think the belief of many that um that assumption and that um that analysis of how we achieve racial justice certainly should be tested and examined in this operational assessment but many other things need to be evaluated about the capacity of the police department and their ability to um meet what brolandtonians expect them to do that uh are um that that are broader that are broader than the issues of racial justice and uh that um I think that breadth is important um to be reflected here and how this study comes out so I you know I obviously we've had real disagreements um throughout this process um I again this committee is going to have a big role in how this report ultimately um is finished and to make sure that it addresses everything that you want addressed and um I hope your confidence and it will uh will be that one this is done you still have the floor parry okay thank you um I'm glad you mentioned the reason why um because I was just I was just thinking about this and my understanding is that this assessment is from the June 2020 resolution which um I have the language here it says that the joint committee begin an inquiry into the question of how to build a healthy and safe community and what institutions we need to reach that goal and this inquiry include a full operational and functional assessment of the brolandton police department which is what this contract is that analyzes who what where and how the department polices and includes a review and analysis of the assessment with full community participation input followed by the implementation of the methodical transition to a public safety apparatus that delivers services along with the values and vision of the community um and I think the public input aspect has um been sort of separated out with the talitha contract I think there is like this is an important conversation for me for me because it contextualizes what I think is your perspective at this point which is that the functional assessment of the department is not just happening because of the June 2020 um racial justice resolution but is like because of what was written in that but as a response to another part of the resolution which um created a new staffing level and I think that is maybe just um like a a bit of a different framing than what I've been working under um I I personally feel like more comfortable or or not comfortable but like my perspective has just been that that I was operating under that is the reason why we're doing the assessment and so this is good context I I'm not I hear what you're saying it like I'm concerned then that there is like this reactionary element to it but I think we can then we can talk about that online and I think there's a lot of or sorry offline and there's a lot of nuances but you know I'm I'm not exactly sure that I'm a little concerned about that framing but I I appreciate you clarifying thank you for hearing me great so if um Milo I see your hand I'm just going to go ahead of you which is just to say um I just want to make clear that my position on this was that I thought this would be better housed in the REIB um department again I think the Burlington Police Department will be highly involved as they should be in this and I thought that would be a good counterbalance um I think that um I which doesn't mean to say that I don't think that this can be successful under Darren in the Burlington Electric Department um I did um I did bring up to the mayor a few concerns I had in terms of what neutrality actually would look like with that um and so and um so yeah I want to leave it I guess I'll leave it at that for now I think um I get no I'll go ahead and bring up that um I think some of the asks that I had for this is that if the joint committee truly is a co-manager of this that Shareen and I plan as I guess it depends on who will be the chair and co-chair going forward but that whoever the co the chair and co-chair is that they do have a kind of oversight role in the management um I don't think we should be part of the day-to-day management because it doesn't make sense we don't have the time that should be one person that is in the administration that can dedicate this full time to them but I think there's at least some kind of oversight that happens on a more than three times every three weeks schedule at least that I think some leadership of this committee should hold and similarly especially given that um Darren's boss is the mayor that there's some firewalls that exist between the client understanding who their client is and that it is not the mayor because I think that is a not a neutral case if there is a direct line to someone who does have a very strong opinion on um where this where this should end up and then the last thing I want to say because I think Randall said this just before the mayor jumped on but um I as I remember it we phrased the RFP to be that this should really be the consultant should not be making there should not be a number that comes out of this there shouldn't be a decision that comes out of this there should be a if this then that if this then that if this then that ultimately this is supposed to help decision makers make decisions and so in that way um I think all of us whether we're on council or on the committee or sit in the mayor's office will have kind of our opinions included just by where we think we should fall on that but um yes this shouldn't be if this is managed well so this is looking at Darren that we should not be coming out with a number from this we should be coming out with a menu of sorts um with that I said that I would go quickly back to public forum we are going to go back to doing our old style public forum for this just because we've been going for three hours and so if folks I will put a timer on um not visibly but you'll hear it when it goes off for two minutes and if you don't stop for 30 seconds after that um I will ask you to stop um Jess you've had your hand raised so I assume that you would like to go I'm so sorry Milo I said I would return to you I don't know if your hand was still up or if you wanted to go again um why don't you go ahead and proceed with the public forum and I'll come back afterwards um and I won't have much to say because you actually just answered a number of questions that I was going to ask thank you and Jess you still have the ability to talk from last time so if you want to unmute yourself hi um thank you for giving me an opportunity to speak again as a member of the public I find this conversation to be incredibly disheartening and very frustrating um as somebody who spoke in favor of the racial justice resolution in June I find it incredibly telling that the mayor is trying to frame this RFP as only being initiated and pursued because of more recent changes or a change that came within that resolution um I also find it really infuriating that neutrality is going to be embodied in a white male yet again and that somehow inherently having marginalized identities is a way that makes you no longer neutral um and I agree with Councillor Hightower that um given the police department's involvement in providing information which hopefully this RFP can continue to dig deeper than what they're initially willing to provide I do think that a counterbalance to that is a more appropriate way to approach something like equity and inclusion and fair policing policy and a fair mechanism of review what I've witnessed as a member of the public with a Talitha contract is quite a bit of involvement from this body which is encouraging that this other RFP would also have involvement from this body but I find that involvement to not always be super directed and I do think that an administrator is the person that's going to go back to continue to ask for the questions to recognize when something is missing to ask to dig deeper and I would hope that that person would have an invested interest in this being a really thorough and comprehensive review and I'm I'm deep I I just want to return to a point that I do think that Commissioner Grant was trying to make multiple times is this concept of neutrality and a concept of objectivity in a world that is made for whiteness and a world that is made for straight cis people in a world that is made for people who are quote-unquote functional mentally in their capacities and I just I think that those are all things that we need to question and I want to highlight the importance that this decision while the original administrator on this was kind of defaulted to a position that was created by the mayor the public should have an opportunity to weigh in I believe the city council should be able to weigh in I think that you know already the creation of the director of police transformations role was a decision made in a vacuum by the mayor then now this new administrator is going to be made in in a vacuum and even if some input was given and conversations that the mayor chose to have with certain people that's not the same as the city council being able as our elected officials being able to weigh in on a decision like this I think diminishing it to be administrative diminishing it to be about neutrality is trying to cover up the complexity of this issue thank you thank you Jess I have Daniel Feld and I allowed Jess to speak for three and a half minutes so Daniel it could be the same opportunity hi there can you hear me yes we can um I don't really have three and a half minutes worth of stuff to say I just want to echo everything that Jess said basically um you know I'm a student at the university of Vermont I'm very busy working on schoolwork and all that kind of stuff and yet I am still incredibly privileged to be able to spend three hours of my evening listening to a back and forth and fighting continuously against the mayor um in the matter of in the name of racial justice because I think that it's really telling that every tiny little administrative function that moves the needle away from giving people the power needs to be fought so heavily and so infuriating infuriatingly and I just yeah I just want to reiterate everything that Jess said I think the concept of neutrality is entirely fake as it's being used um and I don't exactly know what the impacts will be of handing over the administrative functions to somebody from the electric department but the optics aren't good um and the fact that this must this seems so important to um certain people uh makes it seem as though this could be an actual issue for moving forward in line with the um the recommendations from the racial justice resolution and so I really hope that um the mayor will reconsider um and that we move forward in a way um that is not necessarily focused on finding some fake middle ground but actually centering racial and economic justice which was the entire purpose of the restructuring of the police department thanks thank you Daniel any other members of the public wishing to speak on this seeing none Milo I'll give you the last word thank you um and so I want to thank you um counsel high tower for the the information that you provided because that was actually going to be one of my questions earlier because the mayor was referencing conversations that he had with you without actually saying what those conversations were so I wanted to have a greater understanding of that and I appreciate the information that you provided um I uh agree with um some of the things that were just said by uh the citizens of our city uh the the optics of this are terrible they're just terrible and I think it shows although we know that um ultimately when when this RFP is is completed and we've had this evaluation and we're given information and potential options it it's not the only thing to focus on how many officers are you know what the capital be that's not the only issue yes is it a major issue it is definitely a major issue it's a major issue with some segments of our community it's a major issue with uh some members of the police department and it's a major issue um with the mayor but it has been treated as the only issue and because so many other issues are being discussed that is why there is not the comfort level within the community to raise the cap so I would just say to the mayor to really reexamine this decision um I would ask consideration that REIB the managers for this contract and I would also ask that the mayor open himself up to receive information about all the all the things that are really at play here um because I don't think that's something that's that's occurred and a lot of really important issues are just being lost in politics they really are um and I could go on for a while but I will leave it there thank you thank you mule um Leah I apologize I wasn't seeing the q and a on time um I don't believe that we need the chat function the q and a function is still open so um if you want to speak I'm happy to enable you to speak if you'd like to participate in public forum and I missed that so you are unable to speak if you did want to meet yourself and I'm sorry I didn't see that earlier then unless any other commissioners would like to speak and I'm not seeing any hands um or if there's any action on this item then I would close this item and our last item is adjournment so I would love a motion to adjourn move by commissioner I motion to adjourn the meeting seconded by commissioner heart any discussion all those in favor please say aye aye sorry all right any opposed that passes unanimously and I'll be in touch regarding setting another meeting which I forgot to do and I'll have my next question all right thanks everyone good night everyone thank you good night thank you