 I was also a dick. You know what I mean? Oh, okay, elaborate. Yeah, I've never gone along with teachers my whole life. I have a very disagreeable. I would say, because someone actually said to me, because when I started doing sex as a career, that sounds like a best teacher. I mean, you said that to me. That's how my parents interpreted it, actually. But when I started talking about sex as a career at like 19, 20 years old, my parents were so angry and upset with it and against it. My mom's reaction was so visceral and I didn't give a fuck. And so a part of my, the reason I didn't even have this career is because I'm a dick. I'm like, I don't care what anyone else thinks, I'm gonna do it. But that's the thing too, is a lot of the qualities that we have, but to your point, that aid us in certain areas in life actually prevent us from being successful in others. And so that headstrong, I'm doing things my way. I don't care what anyone else thinks. This is who I am. Take it or leave it. Really helped to propel or start my career, but it was stopping me from making healthy romantic connections. So I had to acknowledge at one point that I'm like, the common denominator is you. You know, like every subway sandwich you go to, you get an argument, every airplane you're on, every relationship you're in. Hey there lovers and friends. I'm really excited to share or repost this video with you. This is an interview that I did for the roommates. They are podcasts. They also have a YouTube channel. But I loved this interview so much and I have done tons of interviews since my book came out. And I thought this one was really special. I also really love male perspectives in the sex relationship and dating space. And I think that they start very important conversations amongst a primarily male audience. And so I wanted to amplify their content and say, if you want a male perspective, definitely go and check out the roommates podcast. I also have a video coming up with Abba and preach. And I'll continue to look for ways to amplify male voices in this space. Cause I think that we are all better when we work together and have this conversation as a communitai. So I hope you enjoy this discussion. And I also want to say, I am doing these webinars. So I did a five day flirting challenge on my Instagram, which I'll actually post on YouTube too. But I'm doing these webinars starting tomorrow. So if you were interested in coming to see me speak for free, for an hour live where I can actually communicate with you, go in the info box and sign up. In addition, in this interview that you're going to watch, I bring up my book a lot, which I just want to remind you that you can get the game of desire for free on Audible when you use my Audible promo code. I will also put that in the info box along with the roommates podcast info, so you can go and follow them. Okay, I'm going to shut up because I talk a whole lot more in this video. This week on the roommates podcast. Everyone is a protagonist of their own film. Everyone thinks that they are Mufasa. Nobody looks in the mirror and is like, oh, I'm kind of scarred and I've been scarred before to somebody else. This girl's amazing. Well, especially too when you are, when you have been scarred by somebody, I'm making the Disney reference of Mufasa and Scarred. I love this. Well, when you have been scarred by somebody, how that internalizes in you and the behavior that you have, and now you turn around and you start treating somebody else based on that other third party and it's like, now you're that person's scar. So I think we have such an easy time identifying other people's toxic behaviors and toxic traits, but we're not really recognizing how we are now internalizing those and treating others that exact same way. So I think it is important to press the pause button to be like, why do I behave this way? Why do I think this way? And not only how is this hurting me, but how am I hurting others? Yo, what's good world to play on? This is the start of the show, baby. And yes, we are back. We are back. And we are in a very, very lovely home, Chris. I love it, man. I like looking outside, seeing the heels. Yeah, like the beautiful sunset coming in. I feel so rich, so bougie, so successful. Yes, yes, yes. And the newest roommate I am very, very excited for. So let's go ahead. Is that how that works? You guys now live here? Basically. That's what it is? That was not a part of the arrangement. We moved in. We moved in. We'll bring you on. We'll bring you on in due time. I think it's so exciting. Please guys, welcome to the show. The one, the only, Shan Booty. You did it! Yay! Yes, I was trying to pronounce her last name and she, after one failed attempt, you told me not to do it anymore. Just do Booty. You can't get it wrong. You're gonna do great. Everybody likes Booty. Yeah, everybody likes Booty. Easy to remember. Yes, yes, so Shan, thank you so much for joining the show. Thank you so much for having me. As I was said, you guys have been on my Explore page for a while. So I don't know how this happened, but I'm very grateful to be here. Thank you for picking me. So awesome, so awesome. I got chose, really good. You choose me. I got chose out of you. Glad to choose you for the best. Yeah. See what we, fellas, you're welcome. So a quick question. Is that you in the picture? In the middle? Yeah. No, I'm one of the adults. No, not in the middle, Jordyn. Oh. Which middle? The middle of the, you're talking about the one with the feathers. The feathers picture. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Yes. You said the girl in the middle, she's four years old. No, I said she's the one with the feathers. What do you think I had SLR quality pictures back in my day? So is that your twin sister? No, it's my sister, regular sister. OK. But you all look exactly the same, right there? Yes, yeah. Really? She's a better person than me, but my sister is an incredible human being. A better person? She really is. What do you think? She looks just like you? She looks like me, so my dad is Indian and my mom is half black, half white. So I think I look half black, half white and my sister looks a bit more Indian. But similar, you know, we still look like siblings. OK. Yeah, I like twins. How's she doing in life? Oh, she's doing great. She married. She has two kids. She's got a house with a pool. You can't marry. Well, let's get back to the show. So I said, yeah, what's with me? What's with your marriage? It was done. You know, we're about the kids. We're about the profession of our family. Yeah. Oh, Lord. Forgiveness. Oh, my God. She's just looking like, all right, get it out. Let it out. Let it out. It's a good cry. So for the people who don't know who you are, can you give them a bit of an elevator pitch so not just about who you are, what you do and all that good jazz? Yeah, I am a sex and relationship educator. I've been in the space now for about 13 years. My second book just came out, which is called The Game of Desire. My first book was 10 years ago, 2009. It was called Laid. And I essentially look for ways to make this conversation more accessible. And the average person should be engaged in this. So I refer to myself as the Walmart greeter of intimacy. What do you mean by that? It means I may not necessarily be an aisle 12 but plugs. I know everything about. There's some sex experts who are very specific. We're tantric sex experts. Or I really speak to polyamory. Whereas for me, I try to invite the average person who's never thought to themselves, hey, how can learning about this area of my life elevate every facet of who I am? So I am not the sex expert, sex expert. I think I am the person who's trying to get people into the space excited and into aisle 12, if they so do. Please, yeah. But I would not be the one who's guiding you between the different sizes of pegging. What? What's the different size? We're not going to do it. We're not doing it. We're not doing it. We're not doing it. I'm going, I personally can't do it. But we're here. So you're interested. You know what I mean? Now the aisle exists. So you're interested. I'm just curious to explain. That's my job. That's my job. I mean, all right. So for the, we're children. So the new book, can you, Chris, be an adult? So for the new book, can you give us a bit of an understanding of why you decide to write that book and what it's about? Are you guys familiar with pickup artistry? I'm deep in that world. OK. Fees, like, you know, you got a degree. So as much as pickup artistry, I think, has not the best end result intentions. I think it's shifted over time. But I think, I mean, in the sense, pickup artistry is teaching men how to sleep with as many women as possible. That, I think, is also the media peg of what pickup artistry is. And of course, there's been some really not so great members of the community who have gone on and really put a stain on the practice. But what I like about it is it's literally school for men who are like, I can't figure this out. It's a really big part of my life. And yet I have a good job. And I've done the school thing. I have my own place. But I am so inept when it comes to making romantic connections. Help me. And not just like in an arbitrary way. I need a step-by-step guide. So this book, in many ways, is like a female step-by-step guide to becoming the kind of person that you want to date and understanding how to go out there and create connections at will and being the driver's seat of your own love life. But a lot of it draws from pickup artistry, from psychology, from Robert Greene. It's an accumulation of all the things I've learned about seduction, influence, and flirting. And put into a book in which I actually worked with six women and tried to teach them and impart them so they can go out there and become masterful seducers. Seduces. Seduces. Can you explain? How does a woman become a masterful seducer? Huffees, you know about it. What's a seducer? So for my understanding of it. As a pickup artistry aficionado, I think you got this. So a seducer is somebody who has the ability to attract and to entice somebody of the opposite sex. I think one of the biggest challenges for a lot of people who are interested in pickup is that they struggle with even attracting somebody for creating sexual relationships. And not just in regards to just having sex, but in regards to letting somebody know that this isn't just platonic, right? Like the key thing of not being stuck in the friend zone. So a seducer is, like I said, somebody who can be able to exhalate relationships with the opposite gender and make it sexual in an efficient manner. Is that good enough? I would say yes, but I think that it's a very narrow term. I think seduction just literally has the ability to draw people in and have them wanting to come back. I think you seduce in meetings. I think you seduce in family occasions, like to get some, it's essentially influence, right? But it's a pleasurable form of influence where somebody enjoys the exchange and wants to come back. And so to the power to draw people in, like I refer to Oprah as being an incredible seducer. I don't think that her goal is to get every middle American woman like wet for her. I think that she's more so about like, see something in me, want to be a part of my magic and want to keep coming back for more. Like that hypnotic energy that makes people so drawn to you, that to me is a masterful seducer. No, that's good. And I definitely agree with that. I guess when you ask, that's why I asked you in regards to what field, because I do think, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this. I do think people might be good at seducing. Like there may be a guy who's an expert salesman who can go, like you simply thought there's women who are experts in certain fields who can go into these boardrooms, who can make these sales, guys who can make these sales. But then when it comes to the opposite gender, they don't have the ability to turn to interaction sexual and bisexual. I don't mean intercourse. I just mean. Well, just like that little. Yeah, yeah, that spark. That fire. A little Jewish. Exactly. And so that's why I think in regards to like in the pickup artist community, you see so many high performing males and like you talk about high performing females who struggle with creating those type of interactions with the opposite gender. Yes. Yeah, I agree. But I think that that's like a get. You put it perfectly. It's a facet of seduction. Because did you read the book, The Art of Seduction? Yes. Yes. Of course. What are you talking to? My favorite, I have the laws of human nature there. That's his new book that came out. Oh my gosh. It's the best book I've ever read in my entire life. Oh really? Incredible. Number two is? Number two. Oh man. I love Jodi Pico. She's a fiction writer, but the second best like, it depends for sex, I think she comes first or come as you are for relationships, the science of happily ever after. Or the social animal probably is up there as well too. I like books on the why, but yeah, laws of human nature is like, this is how people work. And when you know how people work, you know how to work with them. But no, so I think the first thing that I'm really curious about is your own personal story. And you talked a little bit about it in the past, but I think for me, I think our stories, I'm not sure how similar they are, but I got into pick up because, not like got into pick up, but I started studying it heavily because like I realized that like in Hitch, have you seen Hitch? I felt like Hitch at the beginning of the movie. You know, I just had no guy, no game. Like I just didn't understand like how to talk and communicate. And so that's what really got me curious into it, not just for sex, but just for actually building genuine relationships. So I'm curious to your story. Can you teach us one pickup artist technique? Give me like what situation? Like I've heard of some before where it's like, I don't know if NLP is it, but essentially if you can associate an action with a feeling for somebody. And so there was this pickup artist, I believe who with a waitress associated the feeling of like having her stomach tickle whatever he raised his hand. So he would raise his hand, then when she would see it, she would like laugh and do that. And I could just, it created this bond between them. Yeah, so I think there's like, it gets really deep. And I'm not super, super deep. I'm just like surface level-ish with it. But one thing I would say is that, like for guys, for example, in regards to like communication. So like if I'm talking to you and I'm leaning forward, like that now invades your personal space and that makes you feel like I'm desiring after you. So that creates the sexual dynamic of I am the cat and you are the mouse. So a lot of times when you put somebody in a sexual dynamic, then they tend to lean back and then to push away. So like what you realize about like the cool guys or the like the chill guys, you know, they would lean back, right? And then they will force the individual to come to them to break into their personal space. And then you not knowing psychologically by you leaning into somebody else and breaking into their personal space, you're kind of asking them to validate you. You're asking them to affirm you. And so therefore it puts you in a more power position to say the least. So that's one example of a move of pickup, but. Yes. I think pickup artistry is so fascinating from that standpoint, right? It's just really like the thing about it is people don't like to think of themselves as easily manipulated or controlled. And manipulated is the wrong word because manipulated is influence. And sometimes you can be influenced into making a good decision, but marketing is a multi-billion dollar industry for a reason. It is the organization and assessment of how humans behave and then practicing that into consumer habits that a company can profit off of. And so pickup artistry is marketing for humans who want to date. The problem I think with pickup artistry, I think this has actually changed now though, it's a lot like putting whipped cream on shit. Yeah. You know, like you're not working on yourself. At the core of it all, if you're not sure why you're valuable, what you have to offer, what makes you somebody who's interesting or awesome to connect with, but you know how to make people think you're great, you're just drawing somebody in to somebody who doesn't even like themselves. Man, the best book I read was the first book I read for pickup artistry and I forgot the book's name. And basically the author described exactly what you talked about. He said, the number one problem with pickup is one, the destination. If you're just trying to use women for sex, that's manipulative and that's wrong. Especially if you don't communicate that initially. But what he was saying was you use these techniques to portray someone that you're not. So these people don't end up with long-term relationships because if you're a certain kind of guy and you're portraying like you're this, freaking Christian gray type of guy and then she realizes in due time when you take off the mask, you're not, she's gonna leave you. So one of his things was like, how do you attract women by being the best version of yourself? What you're describing, and you talk about in your life. You gotta work on you first. Exactly. That's the thing is like, you gotta be the person who wants to date. You gotta understand yourself. You gotta be in charge of changing your own shit. And then you can pick up the techniques and tricks and et cetera. Like a marketing company. They shouldn't come on brand with like, oh, this company is toxic and not FDA approved, but we're still gonna market it out there. Like, no, you get the approvals first. You make sure your product is good and competitive. And then you hire a marketing team to say, we've done this great thing. We did the work. Now like make it shine and make it appealing to other people. I think of it like, I remember I was talking to somebody about it. It's product and placement. Like you said, placement is a marketing, is a techniques, right? But product is who you are as individual. And it's product then placement. And so, can you say something? How did you get to where you are? I was always very sexually precocious. I like some kids are just naturally in the piano. You know, there's like a child prodigy who's like drawing at five years old. I just feel like I was very fascinated by the human body and by touch, which is not a phenomenon. I read this, everybody should do this. When I went to school for sexology, it was a year by year assessment of what normal in the sense of like the median. What the median sexual behavior is per age. And it's like five years old, masturbating or dry humping. And so, I was in that space of like, I remember my first sexual experience at five being awesome and consensual with a pillow. And I remember it being like, this was fun and positive. And I told a friend who told on me, then I got in trouble. And then my Barbies were banned from being naked. I was called lewd a lot by my family members to try to suppress this side of me. And so this thing that I naturally knew was good. And in a healthy part of who I was, I was like, oh shit, this makes my family upset with me and angry. It gets me in trouble. So the thing with repression is, you can either push it down and become a nun or like you push it down until it finds a little back door to sneak out of. And so I was a back door motherfucker. You know what I mean? So I watched a lot of porn growing up and I read a lot of fiction novels. And so my- Like Zayn? Yes! Zayn, Coldest Winter Ever, Eric Jerome Dickey. Like a lot of my ideals around what sex were created by works of fiction, porn being one of them. And so when I started being sexual at age 16 years old, I modeled them after lies. And I had a very awful toxic sex life. And when I turned 19, I had seven sexual partners and I know zero orgasms, no joy. And I'm like, man, here's this thing that I've been looking forward to my whole life and it's not worth the hype. Either that or I'm not doing it well. So I got a library card and started reading. And I was like, reading Masterson Johnson and I read the Kinsey book and I read the Sex Encyclopedia. I'm like, this is great information, but it's so boring. So is there going to be somebody who creates a space where sex education is sexy, where it's fun, where it's inviting? And so that's the niche I saw for myself back in 2004 or something like that. And then my book Laid came out in 2009. And then that's kind of the same thing with Game of Desire. It was like years later, I'm like, okay, the same thing that was happening with me with dating. I still wasn't having those great connections. I was getting a lot of my own ways. I was getting ghosted. I wasn't finding joy in that. And so I started studying pickup artistry and seduction and influence and connection and that transformed my life in every way. And I thought, how do I package all these great books into an interesting read? Like, I think it's quite fascinating, just even you talking about struggles and dating because you're obviously a very beautiful woman, very intelligent. Thank you. And so most people wouldn't assume that you would have some challenges. Like what were some of the challenges that you were facing consistently? I don't know if you guys are on Instagram. Every hot girl complains about dating. The hottest, like I said that about Brittany Rainer whose book, Judge's Cover came out. And I was like, this is such an affirmation. Like if this woman has a ass, like a coffee table and still has, huh? I like coffee tables. Yeah, it was a very nice, very, very nice, authentic coffee table. Oh, you touched it. No, I've seen the gym. I'm really, really not an aficionado at what is or isn't real. I'm not good at that stuff. But I would assume I see the gym working. I mean, whatever. I don't know. It looks wonderful. It's whatever form. But I would say that like if there's no face of what somebody who's a bad connector looks like and that's what the Art of Seduction teaches you is that there's nine different ways to be highly seductive and to be great at connecting with others. Only one of those has to do with how you look. And looks is a depreciating asset. And there's a study that was done that's like there's no proof that people who date somebody who's hot have relationship satisfaction. Yeah. Have you heard the study where it says is actually like sometimes the more attractive you are the more difficult it is for you to find somebody in a romantic relationship. Have you ever read that before? I haven't, no. Oh, it's quite fascinating. Yeah, I would say it is. But I mean, I was also a dick. You know what I mean? Oh, okay, elaborate. Yeah, I've never gone along with teachers my whole life. I'm a very disagreeable. I would say like, because someone actually said to me I started doing sex as a career. That sounds like a plastic. Yeah. You said sex. That's how my parents interpreted it actually. When I started talking about sex as a career at like 19, 20 years old, my parents were so angry and upset with it and against it. My mom's reaction was so visceral and I didn't give a fuck. And so a part of my, the reason I didn't even have this career is because I'm a dick. I'm like, I don't care what anyone else thinks I'm gonna do it. But that's the thing too is a lot of the qualities that we have to your point that aid us in certain areas in life actually prevent us from being successful in others. And so that headstrong, I'm doing things my way. I don't care what anyone else thinks. This is who I am. Take it or leave it. Really helped to propel or start my career but it was stopping me from making healthy romantic connections. So I had to acknowledge at one point that I'm like, the common denominator is you. You know, like every subway sandwich you go to you get an argument, every airplane you're on, every relationship you're in, like in agreeableness is the number one trait which determines relationship, longevity and success or someone's ability, which were told nice people finished last, but in truth, nice people stay in the race the longest. Never heard of that. So the traits that you saw, like what made you change? Or how do you start going through that process with some of the things that you did? He's troubleshooting when you're like, Oh, something's not working. And then you can do the troubleshooting with a lot of people do where they're like, other, other, other. Men ain't shit. This person ain't shit. The world ain't shit. Dating ain't shit. You can do that for a while. And I did that for a while. And then eventually I was like, maybe that's true. Maybe dating is shit. Maybe it is hard. Maybe it is trash. But there are people who are doing well. I can't deny that. There are people who have success in this area. I'm just not one of them. And if I wanna be one of the successful people, I gotta start paying attention to what they're doing that I'm not. And that's where books came into play or just being an observer or being a listener and a learner and being able to make important changes in my life and my own personality. And then I think that's when I had a massive shift. What was the biggest thing that you changed that you felt like caused the most drastic shift in your life? My disagreeableness. I honestly would say I'm married now. And my number one advice for a healthy marriage is developing your shut the fuck up filter. There's so many times that I always wanna voice my opinion or say how I would do things or give an alternate route. And then if I just be quiet sometimes and even if something it doesn't please me, sometimes I wanna correct right away. But if I just be quiet, one, sometimes it actually pans out even better than I thought it would. Or number two, it's like, let that person have the joy of having their vision come to fruition. Just like you wanna assert your vision in this moment. They also want that same feeling of knowing they did it their way. So shutting up and shutting down that voice in my head which stopped me from being a good student where I was always trying to one up the teacher or say how things could be better. But versus like, if I'm trusting you to partner with you, I actually have to trust you. So that I think was my biggest shift. Do you guys have something like that for yourself that you recognize like? Oh my gosh. You wanna go down the road? Trust me. I mean, man, for me the biggest thing that I saw that, hold on, what are you asking me? I want me to ask you a question. What was the trait that was blocking your own blessing? For women, it's actually quite fascinating. For me, I think- I'll be the judge of that. Okay. For me, it was being too nice and being too available and being too kind. So like while you describe yourself as highly, and this is me theorizing here, while you describe yourself as highly disagreeable personality trait, I feel like attraction-wise, that's very attractive because you're very independent, you're very, it's very strong, it's very intoxicating, like a challenge to be won. So I can see like a person like that would be initially attractive, it would be very, very attractive, but then later on, like longevity-wise- It's hard to stay. Yeah, it's like hot sex and then very angry, frustrating afternoons. You know? But I think for me it was like because I was too kind and I didn't understand some, like some of the natural dynamics of overdoing it, I think that's what hindered me the most. So I was always under the impression that, okay, there's a girl in your interest in her, just do, do, do, do, be so great, be so amazing, just literally give her everything and in due time she'll like you back. And I didn't understand that for like a lot of times that's not the best way of going about it. And so it wasn't until I started realizing that you have to allow people to qualify themselves before you give them affection and then machine stuff like that. That's when it started really helping me in life and then obviously being my own independent person more so helped strengthen me as well in regards to like success and stuff like that. And I really wanna highlight that because I think that people can interpret that like don't be so nice. No, of course not. It's not that. Yeah. And so, and like I was explaining like this, it's like unfortunately, like in a, I think in the most healthy manner, which is probably what you have and what people in happy relationship have, there's no cat and mouse game. It's just two people, I love you, you love me. The more I give to you, the more you give to me, it doesn't matter. But a lot of times when you meet somebody initially, the more they press into you, the more you kind of lean back, right? It's just kind of the natural dynamics of it. So people, when someone isn't pressing into you and you're naturally very like in their face, it naturally causes you to go back. And so it's not saying you need to be a dick or you need to be rude, it's just to be able to like temper it out, right? So somebody's taken two steps, don't take seven, you know? And so that's, I love her sounds. And so that's what I've learned. So it's not about being bad, but it's about being wise in regards to how you treat other people. There was this Ted talk that I watched, this guy was saying, he's like a reformed nice guy, but he's like, I realized I wasn't nice actually. I was needy. I wasn't being nice to them because I thought they were good people. I was being nice to them because I needed somebody to like me. And so I actually wasn't even paying attention to who they were or paying attention to what was important to them. And forgoing, I mean, we're a cooperation based society. And the reason why we're the top of the food chain is because you give, I give. You know, you build the hut, I bring the food. Like there has to be the cooperation and a nice person really isn't providing anything because they're not providing honesty and truth and challenge and they're not giving you an opportunity to also provide back. And so it's not a true partnership. And there's a study that said there was like this experiment. So it was like a game that three of us would play. And in this game, you can choose whether you're gonna play for the group's benefit or for your own benefit. And there was equal amounts of distaste for the person who always played for their own benefit to the person who always played for the group's benefit. Because a person who always plays for the group benefit and never played for themself, you didn't trust that person's intentions. And you're like, what do they want from me? They're trying to butter me up. Like what's the deal? What's the catch behind this? And also too, like no one's that nice. What was the real truth behind it? So you need that balance. Interesting. Well, what's your thing? My thing, I feel like I gave women too much power over me. As far as like just words of information, like I always do a lot of nice things or the right things to, you know, not be like the other guys or the bad guys or the players or whatever. So I did a lot of, a lot of like kind of similar pieces. A lot of nice things and gave them power. They thought I was a good guy, a good person. Then I was happy. And if I didn't get that, I was miserable. So. Oprah says the need to please is a disease. It is. So yeah, that was mine. But now, but now I'm good. Yeah. Now I'm fixed. I'm not. I always say I'm fixed, but I'm definitely better working on giving myself power and, you know, my God and giving me what I need versus trying to get from other people. Yes. Amen. Amen. No. And what jumping into the book, because I'm really, I'm glad that you shared that story. But what I really liked that you talked about was the importance for women. I think this goes for men as well. Two, one, do the inventory themselves in regards to building yourself up before you even like see your partner. Because I'm going to say, I thought about it. But I remember somebody once told me they said every woman wants Prince Charming, but never asked the question, does Prince Charming want you? And it's not even saying you're not valuable enough, but it's like, if you yourself put such high requirements on an individual, how therefore can you not meet just that same individual's requirements for you? Yes. And so when you talk about that, can you elaborate a little bit about the importance of building up yourself as an individual? Yeah. This just, it's better that way. I mean, there's people who life happens to them and there's people who happen to life. And so if you're a person who life happens to you, you're waiting for someone to prove something to you, you're waiting for things to be gifted to you. And that's great, I guess in one capacity. On the other hand, you're out of control. You have to, you're passively waiting and hoping and wishing versus somebody who's like, oh, this isn't working. Okay, what's in my control? That's really what it is. What's in my control that I can constantly do and fix? Do you guys ever read the book before? Men don't like women like you? Oh, you, it's why men don't love women like you or something to capacity. He is, he's like, goes under a fake name. He also wrote Ho Tactics. Ho Tactics. Yeah, but why men don't love women like you was a fascinating book that I really enjoy. G.L. Lambert, I believe it is, but he in essence was saying also too that what has happened with women and the rise to power in the financial world as contributors, right? A lot of the skills that women have acquired in this space, they believe that that's the work that it takes to be a good romantic partner, but it's separate work. So what you're looking at is a value because you're like, I have a house or I have this, I have four degrees. And he's like, that actually isn't qualifying you as a good romantic partner. Oh my gosh, you said it, not us. G.L. Lambert said it. And gosh, we're gonna have to go there. I love that point because I think that equality is beautiful, but sometimes I think when you think of equality, then you start to think that men and women in value they're the same, but in thinking they're not. So I think that sometimes what's gone on is that when for some women, not saying it's bad, but for some women thinking like, oh, I'm equal to men, then they start to think that, okay, the way a man thinks is the way I think, the way men values think that I value. So like you said, a woman will be like, I want a guy who's ambitious, who has this kind of job, this kind of height, and then therefore she'll be like, well, then I guess guys want a guy with this ambition, this kind of job, and it's like this kind of money. And it's like, no, that's not it. And then like you said, those traits that benefited you in the workplace help you skyrocket as a lawyer in New York City may not be the same skills that help you create a healthy, long lasting relationship. And that's just something that I just think a lot of people miss out on. They don't realize that reality of it. Yeah, I think that also too, someone actually asked me the day that like, what do you think about people who try to date outside of their league? And I was like, what does that mean? Like dating is in the NBA where there's like strict qualifications. Even then there's no, you can't even say, oh, can I make it to the NBA? Because different teams need different things. Maybe one team is looking for a morale, rah, rah, rah guy. They have their starting five, they have everywhere they need, but what they need is that last chip who's gonna come in and create glue because there is some drama between the two star players. And so you can't say if you qualify for a league because you don't know what that individual is looking for and like what somebody else values. And so there was this person that I knew whom like they were in essence looking for someone to stay in the country. Like they needed a visa. So what was a qualifier for them was somebody who was willing to get married very quickly. Is this person Nigerian? No, not that. What? But that's what I mean. That's the league that they were looking for. That was their qualifier for a mate. So take your shot with every single person because you have no idea if you have exactly what they're looking for or not at all. Hmm. Hmm. I don't know. I don't know where we're gonna do that. What do you mean? Because I mean, I don't know if like, if somebody has all these degrees or just going to just date any and everybody. But there are men who do want a woman who is successful. But I think just it's probably not statistically as high as women who are looking for a man who is financially successful. So I like whether you broke it down because it's like just because that's what you want doesn't mean that's what other people want. And I think a lot of that, someone actually said, we're talking about love languages and they were like, my love language is words of affirmation and my love language I like to speak is gifts. I'm like, I don't think it works that way. You can't go in with a preference for how you want to love other people. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't. I can't. I won't. Yeah, you can't go in for a preference for how I want you to qualify me. You know what I mean? I don't know what your qualifiers are for an interesting mate. And so that would only come through conversation. If I was interested in you, that's what the thing of seductiveness as well too is that it's learning that and being able to adapt if necessary. No, that's good. So you have, let's say you have some of these clients and then you talk about the women in your book, but let's say you have some of these clients and you know, a lot of times, I think you said in phase three, you write out this list, right? Yeah. So when do you tell people that list is erroneous because it's just too long and when do you tell people that, okay, this list makes sense? Or do you even tell people that their list could be erroneous and just too long and unrealistic? Well, you're looking for. So I describe the list as like a job listing. And so in any job listing, your required qualifications are never gonna exceed five. The book that I talked about before, The Signs of Happily Ever After said statistically everyone should get, everyone gets three wishes when it comes to a mate. So when you come up with a list of 20 things, I was like, no, you're gonna get three wishes. What was your three? Securely attached because of the job that I do and I'm very flirty and I like flirting and so I could not have a jealous partner. Emotionally intelligent, I like somebody who likes to question life. Like my favorite quote is that unexamined life is not worth living. So I wanted a partner who would like talk about like, why did they make this bottle green? This bottle, it's not a bottle, it's a fucking book, but why did they choose the color red for this? And then finally, it's actually compatible. Actually, I'm lying. My third is physical attractiveness, which I know is a depreciation. You should not make that your top three. So this is where physical attractiveness is like a junk drawer word. Yes. Because it has, in my opinion for women, more things than it does for men. So what does that qualify for you? I just have to look at you and be like, but what is that? What is that thing? What does that come from? I don't know. I have to get tattoos because I'm trying to get some of that. You know, actually, I don't have any tattoos. I don't like tattoos. My partner has tattoos, but it's not my... So you have tattoos? No, I like clean, you know what I mean? But I don't know, it's just like, I definitely have like a physical type, so I think that there's a pretty easy way to map that out. Somebody who looks similar to me, but that's also like my family is versions of me. Like I come from a brown family. So I think that's just again, like attraction is built in the subconscious. It's based on exposure. And so you want what you've been exposed to because you know you can trust those people. You can trust them because you've built up like, oh, you remind me of my cousin. My cousin was a good person, therefore you're a good person. So now I feel attraction to you, which is not based on anything other than like who my cousin was, nothing to do with who you are. But anyways, I acknowledge that physical attractiveness is not, it's a bad use of a wish. I just have to be honest with who I am. I'm a shallow ass motherfucker. I don't think you're shallow. I think that's the one difference between the platonic and the sexual, in my opinion, the attraction. That's the only difference. But sexual attraction or sexual compatibility and physical attraction are the same thing. Say that again? Sexual compatibility and physical attractiveness are not the same thing. Of course, of course, of course, of course, of course, yeah. So that's what it's all like. So that's when you use the word physical attractiveness, but are you going back and saying that your third wish is sexual compatibility? I would say I'm using that as like my cop out way. It's really not, I'm just being honest right now. But yes, actually a lot of women do not have physical attractiveness in their, I say frozen vibe. I think if you put the work into yourself, you can ask for two more wishes. If you really, again, made sure that you have put in the skills necessary to be a good connector, not a good lawyer or not a good mom, it's very separate skills. If you've actually put time and energy I'll have reading this book, researching pickup artistry, researching seduction, then you can get two more wishes for yourself. But a lot of women, frozen five, I don't see physical attractiveness. Okay, what's your three? I have no idea. Oh really? I don't, I don't. Not an idea? You have to have some idea. I have an idea. Like it's a job, you're a multi-billion dollar corporation, you're hiring a CEO. What are the three things that your long-term romantic partner has to have in order to even be considered for the role? Chris, I know these things. You may know these things, I do. I don't know. I don't know. I don't think about this. Look, let's be honest, every guy, we know the first wish is gonna be physical attractiveness. Let's not even deny that, right? I'm not denying that. So I would say number two for you would be love for God. That could be in there. And then I would say number three for you would have to be a warm words of affirmation giving person. Oh, speaks your love language. Yeah. And that's so important for him. You have to be able to speak to him in a loving, positive. I think you found your soulmate. Head on down to aisle 12. Get started. Who about to get this up right now? She's done, now you're done. She's done, you're done. Let's get ridiculous around here. Now it's getting ridiculous. So yeah, that's what I feel like. You need that. All right, that's good. What are your three? My three physical attractiveness is the first thing. Number two. See, at least I said physical attractive is number three for me. I think honestly, this is me, I think that's bullshit for 99% of people. I think if we're all honest, that's like how many people can honestly say they dated somebody who they weren't physically attracted to but they were just a mostly attracted to. I would say that it's a percentage. There's not like a zero physical attractive. Even 50%, I would say a large amount of people. That they were not physically attracted to. There are half. It wasn't necessarily their greatest cup of tea. It wasn't their tall glass of milk that they are or tall glass of beer or whatever euthanism we can use here, but. I would love to see that study. I would go 90, 10, 80, 515 at best. I would go that high. I said no, like you were not physically, I didn't say sort of, I said you're not. I know a lot of friends of mine who are dating somebody who's not equally women who are not dated, equally yoked in attractiveness, males and very happy. But that's different. Cause I would argue that the attractiveness, like I said for women, I think the list is longer, right? So I think in my opinion, I would think that sometimes like status for women is attractive. Like an ugly king is still a king. You know what I mean? Like that's still attractive. Is it ugly queen, still a queen? No. Like Cinderella, it's the story of Cinderella for a reason. She was fine, but you're a queen. It's so good, it's so good, but you gotta look good too. You gotta look good. That's just my opinion. That's just for my studies. I think about my kids. I do, I do. Well, can I ask a question? Go ahead. Beauty as now where I think beauty is very accessible. I think that the average person now has tools to that of a rock star in that like glam. So do you also take into account that, like someone's ability to- Oh no. You don't. I like raw beauty. Oh, that's so specific. Yeah. You said I got three wishes. What about, if you're a genie, why can't I be specific? What are we doing here? What? I really respect people who play the game, who get it, who are like, this wasn't the deck of cards that I was dealt. Kind of similar to me. I wasn't dealt, I think, with the most inviting personality, but I made an adjustment, I learned, I understand how to do it, and now I play that role until I've become it, but I use the tools around me to better myself in the area that I don't think I was naturally apt. So I feel like if I see somebody who's doing that, even a dude, if I'm like, oh, like he dresses well, he's getting a good haircut, you know what I mean? He could tell that there's a lot of effort put into overcompensate. I think that that would make someone boost their score in my mind. I- You just want Cinderella. You want the person who's like, undeniable, like, she's poor, but get that girl a castle. She's fine. Yeah. Sounds good. I would argue that is a pro-typical, feminine beauty and the beast type of story. Like to be able to transcend here, like that's why you have like soldiers who like get their face blown up, but they're amputated and stuff like that, like where the women they still see inside of here and they're kniving focus on that, but like I personally think that for a lot of guys that first, you know, the look is like one of the most important things, but like I really believe, because I know people call me shallow right now, it's heads and it's tails. It's not mutually exclusive. I think it's both of them. Like it's not just she looks good and then she's a terrible human being. I would never do that. I would say- Yeah, yeah. Inside and outside. Or what's your two, three? So two would be love for God. And then for three, I would say a feminine, like a really feminine person. I think God's, and I won't be like that to me. You know what's fascinating about that though, because none of these have to do with how they would interact with you. You know what's funny? That was my problem for years. Remember when I told you I was always a nice guy? I never qualified you have to like me or be nice to me or respect or value me. I never did. And I just literally never did. I know the adage is Chris is very similar. Like Chris likes girls who like him. That's something that he does. And I think most guys is like, how'd you meet your wife? Well, she talked to me. Like I would say a lot of people are like that. Me, I never, I was never like that. And you never had to treat me anyway for me to be attracted to you. Which is why I had to learn, like I said, to be able to see what step you take. And that's why I came in cause I was like, nah, we not dealing with that for real. We not dealing with this bull number. Nah, we not doing it. Go and get some respect around here. House stepped in hard. Did you guys come together at the beginning of your journey and made your way through? Like at what point did the two of you link up? Chris describes the house we lived in as the house of broken men. Because when we first met, we were originally roommates and there was five of us all living in the house together. Chris just got out of a two year relationship. And it was a girl that he loved. He thought he was gonna marry. And for reasons he shared many times on this podcast, it ended things, devastated him. Like he was going through a serious dark season. I actually moved to Houston because a girl that I was interested in for three years, it was like I always wanted her. And like I said, she never was interested. And my thought process at that time was, maybe it's because like we don't have proximity to each other. Cause like she doesn't see me enough. So maybe if I'm like in her area, then therefore she'll be interested in me. So I actually moved to Houston for this girl. And then I met up with Chris and then we all lived together. So that's where we met like in like literally kind of the, that part of the movie where like the main characters lost and confused, you know, like, you know, freaking Simba, you know, and the wilderness. Like that's where we both, when we began this podcast and also like our journey of being friends. That's a beautiful story. So you've done this together. I mean, not together, like stay down, open the body. Nah, I ain't gonna do all that together. You rebuilt together. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And on the show too. On the show, yeah. Everybody, if you start from literally from episode one to now, it's a timeline of our lives. Like it's really crazy. Like if you want to know the journey and how far we came in past two and a half years, start from episode one. For all of you listeners out there. I mean, it's really good. Back in the catalogs. People see the growth, you know, so it's good. No. That's why to me, I always tell people like, and I love what your book is doing because I think people would see it from the outside looking in and they're like, oh, this is probably just like, you know, why men love bitches? One of those kinds of book about manipulation. But you do, like you're focused so much on the internal work for the individual to build the life that you want to live for yourself. I love that part about the book, the end goal isn't just get a man. It's actually, excuse me, love and value yourself. I think this is a beautiful message. The message overall is that at the end of the day, we are creators. I know you guys are religious, but I don't mean that in a religious way. I mean, the pants you're wearing, somebody made. The microphones that were on. Another person, no more capable, awesome, cool, incredible, maybe had more access, but the same brain, the same hands, the same eyes were able to create. Like, so you are able to make what you want, right? We live in a rapidly advancing society because people are constantly making things. And so you can make yourself different. You can make your circumstances different. Now, people's start lines might be different. Some people might have an easier time or more of a push, but at the end of the day, we all have the potential. And so if you don't like the hand that you're dealt, start dealing your own cards. And it could take some time. And it takes work, don't get me wrong. I think my biggest lesson with this book is when I first started it, I called it a six week course. Like six weeks to being a masterful seducer. MoFuck is six months to a year later. And the biggest part was getting people to acknowledge their faults. And that's so naive of me because I've been in this space 13 years. I wrote a book, like I said, 2009 it came out. It really wasn't until 2014 that I was like, oh, you got issues. It took me five years to stop the narrative of them, them, them. And to say, oh, how am I a contributor in my own destiny and my own downfall? And how can I also be the architect of my uprising? I love this. We're so, we were the opposite. We beat ourselves up versus like them, them, them. Yeah. Well, that's great because another sector of pickup artists hate women. Yeah. Right? Misogyny is like so rampant. The migtails, the red pill community, like it's sad because, you know, start cutting you up. I just think it's so unfortunate when you, you allow the bad experiences of some to generalize all. And you see that happening, whether it's gender, whether it's religion, whether it's ethnicity, whether it's sexuality, like you see people demonizing Thai groups of individuals because of an experience, a bad experience with some. And so, yeah, I definitely agree with you all the way. I think that's just so unhealthy and toxic. Yeah, but our brains are designed to do that. That's why people end up with phobias of spiders because one spider when they were three years old. It's interesting. I think like learning about the brain and why it operates the way that it does just creates so much freedom and space for empathy and space for growth. Like the, you know, when you're a kid, like you remember all the negative shit so clearly? Yeah. And your parents are like, what about the time I spent? You don't remember that. You only bring up the negative times. It's because your brain flags like bookmarks, negative things because like we don't want this to happen again. So you will have vivid memories of the most negative shit not because you're an awful toxic person, but because that's survival. And phobias are developed from that, from a dog bit me when I was young and now I go into fight or flight mode every time a dog is around because my body's trying to protect me. And you have to be smarter than your brain and employ logic to say, that was that one dog. It's not all dogs. And maybe we were acting foolish back then. Maybe we ran or we poked the dog in the eye first. Like there's another path that doesn't always have to lead to disaster and danger. No, I think that's so good. I just had a random idea. So I'm gonna go down a rabbit hole and come back. There's this tribe in Australia. Okay, I gotta go backwards. This is amazing book, New York Times best selling book when the Pulitzer Award in literature called Guns, Germs, and Steel. It's basically how Western society was able to colonize the entire world and why the rest of the world wasn't able to colonize Western society. But we won't get into that today. But this guy goes into like some indigenous place in New Zealand or Australia and like he's just traveling, just living with the people and there's like mushrooms and like the guy picks up a wild mushroom and eats it. And the dude was like, what are you doing? You can't eat mushrooms or European guy to the indigenous guy. Like what are you doing? You can't eat mushrooms. Like mushrooms can be poisonous. And he just laughed at him. He was like, what do you mean poisonous? Like you don't know the difference in the poisonous and non-poisonous mushrooms. He's like, it's over like 35 species of mushrooms in an area, there's no way to tell the difference. And the indigenous guy was like, of course, it's common sense. Because for thousands of years they were conditioned like to be able to spot these minute differences that other people weren't able to spot in which they were able to determine like what's good mushrooms and what's bad mushrooms, right? And so like you talked about like, we don't understand how the like the mental conditioning of our mind affects how we behave today and how like these pad like, and some people even say like it's generational. Like for example, I'm sure you've heard the study when you have like baby chickens and you can literally put like a shadow of like a hawk in the sky and they will literally run for cover without ever seeing a hawk in their life because of the biological conditioning and the DNA. So I think... Did they use that to like manage them? I forgot why they did that study but I think it was, I don't know why to be honest with you, but I do know like the conclusion was just like trauma sometimes is biological, you know? And so that's why like, like things like racism are so dangerous because it just it can even be influenced into the children subconsciously. Yeah, and so I think your point and that's why I love your point about not demonizing all men and not demonizing all women especially in the dating space because I feel like so many people are burnt out and worn out because of that very reason. Yeah, and that's one of the things I talk about in the book that's like, everyone is the protagonist of their own film. Everyone thinks that they are Mufasa. Nobody looks in the mirror and is like, oh, I'm kind of scarred and I've been scarred before as somebody else. This girl's amazing. Well, especially too when you are, when you have been scarred by somebody, you know, I'm making the Disney reference about saying scarred. I love this. Well, when you have been scarred by somebody, how that internalizes in you and the behavior that you have and now you turn around and you start treating somebody else based on that other third party and it's like, now you're that person's scar. So I think we have such an easy time identifying other people's toxic behaviors and toxic traits, but we're not really recognizing how we are now internalizing those and treating others that exact same way. So I think it is important to press the pause button to be like, why do I behave this way? Why do I think this way? And not only how is this hurting me, but how am I hurting others? Sounds okay. Ha ha ha. Oh man, this is so amazing. That's good stuff. One of the things you also talk about in the book that I really enjoy is how you teach women to be proactive and to approach men. That's something that's very unorthodox, but I believe, I actually believe that's more old school than the whole wait to get pursued in my opinion, but people can argue with me with that later. But for so many people, they see that as like the no-no. Don't ever talk to guys, don't ever initiate, but you push people to that. Like can you explain a little bit more about like why you decided to put that and the importance of it? Yeah, well I actually used to be an upholder of a women should never make the first move because I did in the past, but I did what you said you shouldn't do. I would take seven steps and look back and be like, where are you? Why aren't you here? And then get angry and then give up and get frustrated rather than making the first move, seeing if they reciprocate, taking another step forward if they follow. Like I would approach somebody and try to initiate a relationship and it wouldn't go anywhere and I just adopted it in my mind. Like, well it never works when women try to make the first move. It never works when anybody just moves blindly. So that's the real basis of it. So I had to recently I think, maybe like in the past three years I changed my mind on that, maybe five years or so. But in the book we actually spoke with a pickup artist J.T. Tran and he had such a dope quote where he was like approaching people as a skill. It's like bike riding. And just because someone can ride a bike doesn't mean they're gonna be a good romantic partner. Like if somebody comes up to you to start a conversation they've talked to 20 of the people that day. Like we had this dude actually when we were going on an experiment who was like, ladies, what's up? Sexy. And he was like this five foot three Mexican dude like a basketball jersey. And he was like yelling at us in the street. And I was like, how many women have you approached today? He's like 25, 30. So, and women interpret that like, oh, if someone talks to me that must mean they like me. Versus if someone talks to me that means they do this shit all the time. Wow. Oh my gosh, I gotta jump in here. That is so important to understand because that's the skill I learned from my friends who are not good guys. No offense to them. I learned no offense. Not like not good, but like they use it for bad reasons in my opinion. But I've learned like everybody knows me. I'm the king of cold, like cold, cold approach and pick up large, I'm the king of cold approach. Like I can go up to any girl in the matter where, who, where, and talk to or start a conversation. Most guys don't do that. And to me, and I'm just generalizing here a lot of guys who do that aren't usually who are good at it. Like you said, they're good at it because they do it so much, right? And so a girl will think that, oh, if he likes me, he'll come talk to me. Chris is a great guy. Chris is not coming to go talk to you because he's thinking like, I wanna interrupt you. I wanna bother you. I wanna inconvenience you. Like he actually cares about what you're doing. It do's bad, you know, who's talked to 75 girls. He don't care if you're on the phone. He don't care if you gotta go to a doctor appointment. He wants you now, you know? And so I just love- You and her and that girl 10 minutes ago and a girl at Chipotle. Yes, I love that point that you bring up about being the master of your own fate and choosing what you want. Yes. Because for so many times, people is like, if you're a girl and you only respond to the guys who come talk to you, you actually don't really have much of a choice of a filter besides what will choose you. But when you are the master of your own fate, you can literally choose whichever guy you want. And now the control is in your hands when you talk about it in the book. Yes, 100%. That was a good sermon right there. That's your little Instagram sound bite. That's it. Yeah, 100%. I think it is that. Like why would you not want to be an active participant? Imagine that there is a world, my brother's back, but imagine that there is a world where you wait for the right job to find you. That you're just like, it'll come, it'll find you. If it wants me, it'll approach me and you're like, maybe it works that way. And I say that about LA, LA is a great city for that. Like you can come to, people don't want to try. I think in this dating space, they look at trying is gross. Like, oh, you read a book, like you're desperate. Oh, you tried, like you're taking classes. Like, oh, you're talking to people, you're researching. Ew, like you're needy and gross. Whereas in every area in life that you want to get good at, you have to research, you got to practice, you got to enlist the help of gurus. You have to go out there and try different techniques out. And that's how you develop mastery. If you want to get good at something, but in this space, it's like the more you try, the like grosser or worse you probably added are at it. And it is such a stupid mind-boggling technique. And so, yeah, I would, I say, is though like I approach all the time. I approach like incessantly and I get rejected a lot in my daily life. And so I'm not saying that approaching is a failsafe way to like all of a sudden now everyone's going to like you, but it just means your probability of meeting people. It also makes life more fun. I think when you get to pick who you want to talk to and you get to pick what kind of conversations you engage in, but yeah, it comes with a lot of awkward scenarios, but you win some, you lose some. I heard that in my whole life. Thanks, Shawn. Yeah. Man. What do you mean by like rejection? When you get rejected a lot, what do you mean by that? It's like awkward encounters. Like we went to a restaurant actually recently around here. We go all the time. And it's like rejection is, this is the thing too. When I say approach somebody, I don't mean like, hey, what's your name? You know where I'm laying it out there because I don't even know you. Why would I put an expectation or a desire to continue interacting with you? And I don't even know if you qualify for interacting with me. So I never approached somebody like, will they like me or can I get this from them? I'm like, I'm curious. Let me see if we can have a good exchange. And then from there, same with that mutual reciprocation, it will go slowly. What's up, Cray? Shut up. You know what I mean? Shoot, I saw that Beema. Must be nice. Yeah. Not just yet. Yeah, so I think that like, when I, I mean awkward and rejection is when I try to make a conversation with somebody or I make a joke there's no land. I mean, I give a compliment that gets weird. So at this restaurant, the waiter was like, oh, do you guys want anything else? And I was like, just your love would be great. He was like, what? I said, oh, it's just, I just want your love. That's all. He's like, I don't understand. I was like, no, I was just saying I don't need anything else on the menu. And he's like, so you're, you don't need anything else. He didn't water or anything. He's like, I'm like, no, I was just making a, and he's like, okay. And he walked away and I was like, I got to come back here. Like it was the most awful exchange, but you survived. Man, like, I love Aquinas sometimes. Sorry. Well, you're primed for approaching then. But you don't have to do it. Oh, I can do it. Wait a second, wait a second. I can do it. Wait a second. Wait a second. I'm too much. I'm like the A.B. team of like, of shooting. Fees is like the varsity team captain. I'm the team captain. No, correct me. I'm all American. There you go. It can be all American. The feeds are the work. You got to stay in certain situations. I can do it. When I was at that bachelor party, I was acting the fool out there and I brought everybody. I got the power in me though. Don't disrespect me. And the night's more fun that way. It's so much more fun when you're like, what's with the girls in the group? Like we went out the first night and everyone just stayed in this huddled group and you look around. Everyone else is talking to people. You're not, but you don't want to start a conversation. And now you're trying to force a conversation with people you already know. And it's like, just why not just open it up and meet new people with no expectations. Just have a good time. Y'all got Sophie. Y'all got Sophie is my full capability though. That's what he wants to see. That's what he wants. I mean, I be trying to suppress my head ass in this bar. It's gonna come out. I look forward to it. Oh, and to me, I honestly think, and this is my personal opinion, I feel as though so many women are afraid of rejection. Yes. At people. Yes and no. Let me tell you why. I agree with you. Across the spectrum, people are afraid of rejection. So I don't want to generalize anybody's via gender. But because of the sexual dance in today's world, the man most of the time is expected to approach, right? So it's expected, like life isn't a Sadie Hawkins dance, right? It's expected for the guy to go into like, hey, you know, blah, blah, blah. So I would say that the ability to go up and talk to strangers is more something that men are expected to do to women and vice versa, but I agree with you for both. Like, there's so many girls, and I'm not sure if you experienced this, who like they will shoot at me. Terrible shots by the chance. And the moment they see it's not going positive, they shut down. Yeah. They just shut down. And they just like give up. I'm like, yo, like, and they get mad. Yeah. People think guys get mad. Have you ever seen a woman get rejected before? No, what does it look like? Give us a replay. So I remember one time I was at a club, and I chose, I said, I'm not dancing. I just wanted to go out. I wanted to go out for once and just no women, just me, have fun. So I was at the club dancing, you know what I mean? Just having a good time. And then all of a sudden this girl comes and she's like, you know, try to dance with me. And I was like, no, like she tried to come. And I'm like, no, I'm good. She was like, nigga, what? And she was just so like the look on her face, like I like I assaulted her. She was like. And she like literally just like stomped all around me and just like stomped away. I was like, dang, like I just said, no, thank you. But to her it was like in front of everybody on the dance floor. Like it was just that fear of being rejected. And so I always told myself, if I ever have a daughter, I want to teach a grit like that skill. I don't say that's a bad like in the book we had a stripper come through and she gave us this really good play by play for how she chooses who she's going to approach as a client. And she's like, number one, take their temperature. So you're never gonna walk over. If you see somebody who's not making eye contact with others, they're in their own zone or they're in a rush, they're purses up. Like you can tell like by reading their temperature they're not in a space. They're looking to initiate any kind of conversation. Two, before you go over to somebody you have to have eye contact and nonverbal cues. So yeah, it has to be like a we've looked each other a couple of times and maybe I wave and you wave and now I'll go over and dance with you. I'm not gonna just put my butt on your penis as my introductory move. I can't do it on how you look, I am thankfully okay with that. Don't make these people, me, no, no, no, no. You know what though I always say because like this is the thing of the nuances be clear like I was working with this young group of teens right and maybe like they're 17, 18 years old and they're young Hollywood teens and we were doing a sex talk on camera and we're talking about consent. And they were like, but like what's the guy supposed to do? Like if a guy asked me before he kissed me, ew gross, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, cause you're thinking of that one dude in your school who you like, who's super hot. You're thinking of that one dude picking you up and like having this moment with you. You're not thinking about the 99% of other people who are hearing that message who are like, got it. I just go for it. It's just like, no. And even if you are that super hot person if they made eye contact with you first I'm sure it wouldn't diminish the moment. So across the board, just like your introductory move should not be, can I get your number? Should not be to advance their relationship not be to completely step outside. And it should not be, here's my butt, it's on your penis. Let's do something with this, right? So I would say that like, yeah, taking temperature and eye contact and non-verbal cues are just across the board, good starting points. No, that's like, that is so important. So how do you make a non-verbal cue? Yeah, give me an example of that. Yeah, a little wink, a little like. No, you don't do that. You do that for real? It might, yeah. Can you imagine that in church? You see, she's doing it. She knows what she's doing. She knows what she's doing. She knows what she's doing. No, and so here's an interesting thing about that. What, in your opinion, is different between friendly non-verbal and then romantic non-verbal? Because I've noticed that for some people, it looks very similar. And some girls give those non-verbals as invitations. Like, girls won't shoot like, hey, my name is Sarah. They'll shoot like the two second look, not knowing that some girls are just looking around everywhere, you know? So like, what would you say is like that difference? Well, that's the thing is you don't have to know. You don't have to try to be a guesser, because it's like poker, you know? OK, you see somebody has, was it Ray's fold? What's the third one? To check. So you either, yeah, call. What's called, betting higher? No, check this out. You put down two, I'm going to put down two. Yeah. So I think that like, yeah, so it's like, OK, cool. You gave me non-verbal cue, I'll give you one back. And I might want to stay there. Or I might want to Ray's and go up to you and then be like, hey. And then if I see all of a sudden you start to tense up with like my forward energy or that like, you sort of like turn your body to the side. I'm like, OK, cool. So I think you raise a little bit. And then you see if they reciprocate and you see what the drop-off point is for them. And then once they hit that point, stay there for a while. I like what you even said too, like, don't give up so easily. If I come up to you and I raise the stakes a bit and you shrink a little bit, OK, I give a little bit more time. We'll stay here for a bit. We'll play on this hand for a little bit longer. Maybe I might try again. Maybe I won't. And maybe I'll decide it's time to fold. But I don't think that you have to have it all figured out. You're going to be wrong sometimes. I'm wrong sometimes too. But I'm not wrong to the point that I harass somebody sexually. Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's true. Persistence, fellas, only works in the movies and television shows. It's got to be mutual reciprocation. It's like that's the thing is healthy intimacy from every standpoint, marriage, everything. Is I take a small step forward? We feel good here in this space. We feel it out. We check in. Now either we walk forward or we walk back or we stay here for a while. I'm never taking 12 steps ahead, like you said, then looking back. Or I'm never just assuming that let's go outside and talk before we've even, again, had some type of mutual understanding that we even want to talk at all. No, I love it. I'm curious. That move you use. I'm curious to why do you use that move. Which one? That non-verbal cue? I honestly and respectfully, I don't think you use that move often. No, I wouldn't use it often. Yeah, it wouldn't be like a Tuesday. It's not a go-to move. It's not a go-to move. OK, well, excuse the hell I am. My go-to non-verbal is a wave. My go-to non-verbal, like I was at a restaurant yesterday. And this dude, like, I flirt all the time. And so this dude walked by. And he worked there. And I looked at him. He looked at me. And then he waved. And I waved. And then I was leaving. And I was like, thank you so much. It's great to see you. Thank you. Come again. So wave is probably my use of go-to non-verbal cue. What's your go-to? Mine? Yeah. I'll stay into that seductively. I doubt you do. Ooh. That's hard. That's hard. You know what it is, though? Because I said that I think sustaining eye contact, when you know it's intentional, you know what the king eye contact is, the triangle. So it's a look in the eyes, down the body, and then back up. Woo-hoo-hoo-hoo. Well, that's hard. That's hard. For my life, I was super ahead of it. You understand? I know what I can do. I know what I did before. No, but I might. I know what you're talking about. I know the move. Yeah, but I'm just saying, like, it's one thing to know it, but to do it. Yes. What was it? Yes. I think it's easier to walk up to somebody and approach or ask an opinion-based question than it is to, like, really, like, hit them with some, like, eye contact. Yeah, eye contact. That's hard. Eye contact is, like, I'm OK. I like it, though. That's me. But anyways, that's fine. Mine is the wave, too. But honestly, I'm very, I'm very, I'm at the point now where I don't even. The wave. I haven't seen you wave. You wave? Yeah, but I'm at the point now where I don't even, I honestly don't use it. I don't use any indicator. I just go. You just pull up. Yeah. Yeah. But like I said, it's like, I understand the dynamic of how to talk, right? So, like, if I go up to a girl, I'm never like this. You know, I'm never leaning in like this. I'm, like I said, I'm leaning back. I'm giving her her own personal space. I'm letting her choose if she wants to continue to talk to me or not. Of course. On her point, and I'm curious to your answer, like you talked about like consent with kissing. There's a lot of debates about that going on today. Oh, I'm shooting. I'm pulling in. That's about your ass, right? So are you like, what is your, what is your first kiss move? I'm not going 90, 10. I hitch. I feel it out and I go forward and I get rejected. Don't get rejected. OK. Yeah. Are you an initiator? Are you are you passive? What is your thing? I probably do like the mutual. I feel it out. I mean, I think something is true. Like things seem complicated. Like the language of consent is nuanced. It seems complicated. And I explain to people, try to explain to somebody smiling. Like when is it appropriate to smile? When to not smile? Smiling big, smiling too long. And it's like, fuck, why am I even smile? Smiling is too hard. It's like, no, but over sustained time of doing it, like the mushrooms, you learn to understand the language of, you become a master of it and you pick up the social cues that go along with it. So I think that consent, unless you're really good at it and you've been studying it, like if you, like, for example, you, I would trust you because you watch for body language. If I come into your space and I'm talking to you and you're staying lean back and you're giving me the side of your shoulder, I'm not gonna stay there a long period of time. It was about the side of the shoulder. Yeah, so I would say like that's, you have to be really good to be the full speed ahead person. Otherwise, I don't think I'm that good. I actually got called out before because when I see people who support me, I talk about sex and, you know, so I'm, and my brand is flirty. And my brand is flirty. So I'll see you and take a flirty photo with you and like tongue out and booty out. And I'm like lifting up your leg. And this doctor was like, who's also with me on this, like, we're speaking on a panel. She's like, I noticed a lot of people aren't comfortable with the kind of photos you want to take. She's like, I don't ever see you ask anybody. And that's what I recognize that I'm like, oh, I'm out here, me too and people. So I have to start paying attention to more because I'm assuming if you approach me, that means that you want the Shambhudi experience or interaction. I'm not paying attention to the small social cues. And so I just take a step back now and start to one ask or to really, really pay attention before I just dive in. Yeah. No, that's not, I like, I like that point. I think, I think like I said those cause I, cause you pointed out the second thing in your three wishes was emotional intelligence and like literally, am I correct? I said intelligence in general, but emotional intelligence, I would say emotional stability is very important to me. Cause I dated somebody with a temper. I don't want to be fucking guessing your mood. Not my, not my game. Like your reaction better make sense to the stimulus. I don't want to be dating somebody who's just like, don't know what you're going to get. So I think like you said, so much, so much of this to me goes back to Matthew Hussie once said he was, there was a panel of women and he was like, if you knew that you would never get married, like no matter what you did, you'll never get married and you would never have a relationship ever again. How would your life be different today? And his point, girls had a myriad of things, but his point was like, it shouldn't. You should still go out and meet. You should still go out and date. You should still go out and live. You should still go out and learn. It should still go out and love, right? And, and I think so much of life is lost in the dating game instead of the being a human game and meeting and learning and connecting and building. And it's like, I remember we were on live yesterday and this one girl was like, what'd she say? I want a boyfriend. I want a man. What'd she say? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm looking for a boyfriend. So I'm like, yeah. And it's just like, why don't you just meet new people? Why don't you just make new friends? Why don't you say I'm looking for new friends? I'm male and female. And so to me is like, I feel like the more we can get back to like connecting and building and interacting and just learning other human beings, like it will help us so much in the long term of life. But I think like I said, so many people are lost in the dating game, which is why like I said, I think your book is super dope. It's so helpful, provides live tangible tools and it really helps people not only find if they're looking to find the right person, but more so to be the right person for their own happiness regardless of what the other people respond to you. Shit. Put that on Amazon. Put that on Amazon. Put that on Amazon. That was beautiful. Thank you, Effie. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. So anything you'd like to share with our audience in closing? No, I mean, I think you get one wish in life when people are listening to something. And so my one wish is check out the book. If you want a free thing, you can go to the gameofdesire.com slash workbook. That's where you get, we talk a lot about the beginning work. So it takes about two hours, but it's all my favorite self assessments. I heard I can't. I heard I can't. It takes about two hours. Maybe in a minute. It's really good for you. So that's a free entry point. The gameofdesire.com slash workbook. But if you are ready to commit and make this thing official, the book is available everywhere. Books are sold. I love it. I love it. Where can people find you at? They want to get one wish. They ain't going to do both. So don't worry about finding me. Find a book. Oh, there you go. She's not even given it. No, it's Shamboudi, guys. I love it. I love it. I love it so much. Shane, thank you so much for coming on to the show. Guys, make sure you get the book. The gameofdesire.com. It is an exceptional read. My name is Hafeez. Chris, baby. And adios.