 Hi everyone, thank you so much for watching. My name is Raif Derrazy and today I have the distinct honor and privilege to meet with two members from AIDS Fonds and We're gonna talk about the organization and what they do and is all related to HIV So I'm here in Amsterdam. I was visiting for vacation to see my family It's been over 15 years and I figured while I'm here Why not do a little bit of HIV advocacy as well? Okay, so I'm gonna introduce our two fellows here we've got Mark Fair-Mullen and he is the director of AIDS Fonds since November 2018 and He holds a master's degree in business administration from Erasmus University Which is the Rotterdam School of Management and in addition he has a master's degree in political science and American studies Obtained at the University of Amsterdam some of his previous experience includes working at the United Nations Development Program and The UNDP is a United Nations agency tasked with helping countries eliminate poverty and achieve sustainable economic growth and human development Mark has been living openly with HIV since 2007 and he speaks openly about his life with HIV in order to remove The stigma and to contribute to a better understanding of people living with HIV. I can relate to that and Then we also have Ramco von Leofen. Did I say that right? And he is the strategic advisor of AIDS Fonds since 2022 Ramco has a medical background after his medical studies He started his career in HIV research in the early 90s He worked in both academic and industry positions on drug and vaccine development since January 1st He joined the Dutch AIDS Fonds as a strategic advisor in that position He helps AIDS Fonds to achieve one of their most important strategic goals to enable a cure for HIV infection in the future His task is to accelerate research programming financed from AIDS Fonds in the Netherlands maintain a network and scientists HIV practitioners people with HIV facilitate the national network and L4 cure and Identify and stimulate opportunities for research financing and to cure and attract new parties to this Fascinating area of research. Well, that was a mouthful for both of you Thank you so much for taking the time and sitting down with me some random Bloke who messaged you and said hey, I want to do an interview So I really appreciate it and I know that the people that that subscribe and follow my content We'll find a lot of value in this. I think so So I'll start with a question to you and this is a general question that I asked my interviewees What is your current assessment of the global HIV epidemic? I think it has two sides to it I always start with the positive side in the sense that if we look now at 40 years of HIV we see that Worldwide 75% of people living with HIV are on treatment I think that's a fact that we celebrate too little It's I think one of the main achievements in global public health of our generation that we were able to get so many people on Treatment something that was thought impossible Only 10 or 15 years ago At the same time that also means that 25% of the people Living with HIV are not on treatment and like you know you need to have treatment if you're living with HIV because otherwise you will become sick acquire AIDS and and and and die basically and we still know that last year worldwide around 650,000 people died of AIDS related causes And if you realize that then the glasses is definitely not half full That's that's devastating that after 40 years still so many people are not acquiring the medication that they need Specifically because we know that those are the most marginalized people in the epidemic So it's it's gay men. It's young people. It's sex workers. It's children that are being left behind So I think it's it's really two sides a lot to be proud of but also still a lot to be done Heard you loud and clear so we need to acknowledge How far we've come all the advancements that we've made but then also recognize and realize that we still have a very Long way to go. Yes. Yeah, and it's especially because you when you realize that HIV is a problem now mostly Because of who you are where you live who you love what the color of your skin is makes a huge difference and that for me was one of the reasons to to become active in this work is that I I Feel this solidarity with the generation before us that that made sure that this HIV medication is there But also a lot of solidarity with people living with HIV that have exactly the same virus that I have But they are not accessing that treatment because like I said of who they are where they live And that's completely unacceptable and I do want to go into a little bit about if you will What brought you into the space and more specifically? How you got to the point where you were brave enough to live openly with your diagnosis So my my diagnosis is a while ago. So 2007 I got my diagnosis in a sort of a regular medical checkup And so for me it was a complete surprise and quite devastating at the time I think a lot of the emotions that people have or might have when they get a diagnosis like HIV like shame How is this possible? How will I tell my family my friends? How will people react? I knew my life wasn't over in the sense that I knew that treatment was there But I did feel a little bit like my life was over in the sense of will I ever find somebody that will love me for Who I am will I had I've always found love very challenging I've been with a partner now for many years, but especially at that time It's like finding a partner was hard sometimes and then thinking like open like with HIV that will become impossible So in that sense Yet having challenges but also shame towards your family like how will people react? So I knew that no my life wouldn't be over as in here in the Netherlands There would be treatment for me, but it did raise a lot of questions and insecurities And like I said at that time I was working in Sort of a more political field in development and after a year also made me realize for me I was in that position living here in the Netherlands But I also realized that for a lot of people Especially at that time there were still so many people living with HIV not on treatment That I just wanted to do something with that and so I started at AIDS phones in 2009 I've been in different capacity since then and in the last four years in the capacity of executive director And also for me was a process to become open about that like in 2007. I wasn't open I told few of my close friends. I told my my parents after half a year But it took me several years to become more open In my work and it took me even longer to start publicly speaking about it because There's still this questioning of what will people think how will they react? So there was this hesitation Yeah, and Rump go turning it over to you What was your experience living in the Netherlands growing up in the Netherlands as far as your perceptions of HIV and Advancements or not being aware at all or what was that like? I'm a bit older than Mark So I had I'm gay man, so I have sex with with with many guys and I had not coming out in the Extend mid-80s and this was the time when the first patients of with HIV were diagnosed the time where HIV was still deadly disease and You know, although I don't have HIV Fortunately at the moment I've been at risk for 40 years and I've seen a lot of friends die, especially in the early years It was really a sort of gamble where they would survive or not So for me that has always been a motivation to be active in the field So I started my career in HIV At the time where I think there was a lot of excitement About the fact that the antivirals that were then discovered and being tested in patients for the first time actually made a difference Initially with some modest effect, but you know when we had the Opportunity to combine different antivirals with each other it became a difference of day and night So I've seen, you know, what the medical field can actually do for a disease that Used to be deadly disease and now is for people that have access to treatment a chronic disease that not necessarily has to influence the way that you live, right and So like Mark mentioned We are fortunate in this part of the world There's many places in the world where people are less fortunate Yet I do think that if you look at the medical developments in the field There is actually that same sort of spirit again that hey, we can make a difference here. We have been able to Treat people with HIV make sure that instead of them dying from HIV They can live a long healthy life now I think we're in an era that we have the prospect of current people from HIV really making sure that HIV is no longer a threat to them Even in the absence of taking antivirals, and I think that's a very exciting time Oh, yeah, and on a personal note as someone who is HIV negative and with your statement about Being diagnosed and then that concern about is love possible as a relationship possible. I know that so many people that Reach out to me DM comment That's one of their primary concerns when they get a diagnosis after they learn that they can continue living and being healthy is What's it? What's the possibility for love and as someone who's HIV negative? What is your perspective on that and has that changed? After you've gone more into HIV research Yeah, I've seen You know, especially in that time where HIV was a deadly disease Obviously, you know taking the conscious decision that you would take a relationship with somebody whose HIV positive is is actually something that is What's the what's the appropriate word for for that it it's actually a very Big decision to take obviously so I've always admired my friends who were HIV negative and and and yet because they fell in love with somebody whose HIV positive Took the decision that love prevails and and you know Took that step a big leap Now I think although they're still stigma For a medical perspective, there's no reason why you know having a relationship with somebody of whose HIV Should be a barrier yet the emotional story of course is a very different one. So I think that's also a very important reason why Making sure that we get this cure for HIV is Something that becomes a reality for people living with HIV because if you are in that situation then There's no reason whatsoever why that should also be an emotional barrier at least that's that's how I see this Again, not being HIV positive, but you know from the perspective of of of having Lived in the situation being risk for HIV having friends with HIV. I think that is Actually the way that I would I would see this Anything you would like to You know, I think a big change of course has been a you is you so so undetectable is Untransmissible and I've also experienced it at a personal level where where in 2012 I Still wasn't on treatment because back then we were still waiting to start treatment because it wasn't sure scientifically what the long-term effects of medication were and Being at a relationship at that time with somebody that was HIV negative Especially after like half a year then you sort of start realizing, okay, so every time we have sex we have to use condoms And or when you have anal sex you have to use condoms But also the always the risk that something could go wrong And I remember and that was a big challenge then and for several reasons that relationship didn't work out but the revelation of and the freedom that came with with you as you also for People living with HIV and for myself so knowing that you of course just sex without a condom most of the time It's just nicer or sexier but also Discovering that you don't have that voice in the back of your head thinking like oh, but what if the condom breaks was a real Liberation to Enjoy sex and sexuality in a different way again So I think that definitely hopefully for a lot of people with HIV has really changed now that we know that you're Treatment you can't transfer the virus anymore that in addition to prep And so that each individual can take responsibility for their own sexual health Yeah, and and you touch on a good point because I remember Before my diagnosis. Yes, I knew that condoms were preventative measure it was before prep was around so that wasn't even an option and The idea of not using a condom that intimacy physical intimacy is what I felt like I got from that and that was so important to me growing up as someone who Couldn't be out for a long time and didn't feel comfortable and self-hatred and all of that Having that intimacy was so important and needed a desperate for that that it outweighed the fear of Getting an STI or HIV So I think that's powerful. Yeah, and I think in that way you as you has Liberated a lot of people but it also Brings back a certain sex positivity and and yes, there's still ST STIs out there that you can attract when when you're on prep But it gives you the liberty to choose how to love and be intimate but also to enjoy sex and To have that conversation again in in for example the community of gay men After so many years of fear That was surrounding a child's because of HIV was surrounding sex and sexual pleasure To be able to discuss sex positivity again and to enjoy sex without that fear is I think a great thing And like Remco saying I think it like cure and HIV cure and the whole research into that will Hopefully just like you as you at one point in time bring that next level of taking away fear But also stigma that that's still surrounding HIV And big shout out to Bruce Richmond for being the standard bearer for the you equals you movement Is that something that's widely accepted in the Netherlands or generally known about? I Think in the gay community It is well known and people accepted and and celebrate it I think every microphone that I get under my nose I try to get you as you into the message or in the story that we're telling because I'm always surprised with how many people Haven't heard that news So I think it is something that all of us in this field and you were talking about HIV advocacy You should work it into any conversation because I think we've missed big headlines and a lot of people Might have heard about it, but not really registered it And I do think it takes away from some of the stigma around HIV So if you're talking about HIV Working you as you into your messaging because I think we can't tell it enough absolutely and so Speaking of the the Netherlands How do you what do you feel that the progress is as far as HIV? transmissions getting access to care Continuing to live healthy vibrant lives. I'll open it to both of you Is there and also if you want to touch on Has the pandemic had an effect? Let's start by by by that you is you message and You know the importance of bringing that message across you're here for it for a king's day. I was at the party last Sunday where Usually in the dog how there were always signs about take care of HIV there were condoms this time I saw nothing So, you know, I think despite the fact that I think we take for granted that there's no more preventive measures I think we shouldn't lose track of the fact that you have to be vocal about the fact that people need to protect themselves Whether that's with prep or with condoms doesn't matter, but the total absence of that message was not a good sign The second thing that we have here in the Netherlands in which I think is true for a lot of European countries is that there are more and more people on prep But access to prep is still limited and that's I think for a rich country like the Netherlands a shame We know that prep is highly effective. It works in 99% of all people who take take prep so it's a it's a it's a huge step in Controlling HIV So if a lot of people on the waiting list here, and that's unnecessary Rich country like the Netherlands should be able to arrange that So there's is that a lack of the medicine itself or Administrative problems or how why is there a backlog? It's another lot of lack of medicines. It's not a matter of cost I would say we spent like a hundred billion in this country on health care that you know the defraction that we spent on prep programs is neglectable But I think it's the bureaucracy That actually prevents systems to be really flex flexible So as an organization, you know, we want to be We want to make sure that that discussion is is not not forgotten and Coming back to your question, what what is the difference now again? I came from from a Time period where where HIV was a deadly disease. We have made a huge progress, but we're still not there yet Yeah, it's so striking to me that a country that I would consider to be an ideal place where you know health care and government and Community can all come together and understand the epidemic and really you have the backing you have the social backing and the support To still have such a struggle with something so basic as access to prep It's I mean there are so many great things about the Netherlands in that respect But gosh, then I'm like these other countries that have all these other hurdles government social otherwise How how do we get them? To where we want to be when it's it's a struggle here even Yeah, from my perspective health care is really a difficult Difficult industry difficult sector to work in you know If you would be the the minister of health in Western country, typically what you would fear is the fact that we're all getting older You know, we're assuming a lot more health care. It's getting costier It's it's it's not keeping pace with our our our growth of the of the national product So there's a lot of yeah So there's a lot of things that you have to take care of and I can perfectly see that you know in the grand scheme of things This might not be at the highest priority level from a minister of health at yet at the at the same time This is something that is so simple to Solve compared to all the other problems that I think you know it It it should be solved it can be solved And I think it will take organizations like us and others to make sure that we continue with telling that story Not only here in the Netherlands, but especially also for people living in low and middle-income countries Like Mark mentioned, you know, we're on the right track here in this part of the world, but unfortunately since COVID we have seen a Rise again in the number of new HIV infections And that's a very challenging situation which hasn't Which hasn't changed now that COVID is away So I want to touch on this other topic now So mark was program manager for the international human rights program at bridging the gaps Since 2015 it has been one of the largest programs worldwide that is committed to the health and rights of the most marginalized groups in the fight against AIDS So my question is what were some Critical needs that you discovered during that time in the marginalized groups and is that domestic international both? So this program was funded by the Dutch Ministry of Foreign Affairs and we're actually continuing that program with with what we call the love alliance And that's focusing now mostly on the African region And I think what you what we've learned and what we saw there is that HIV again like I shared in the beginning is mostly hitting people that are marginalized for one way or the other We now know that since last year 70 percent a seven zero percent of new infections worldwide Are among these what we call key populations. So these are LGBTI people sex workers drug users so that's Those groups together form a small fragment of the total population worldwide Yet again, they form 70 percent of new HIV infections So if we're if we're wanting to address HIV and reach a world where where nobody dies of AIDS We have to work with these groups and that's what we started doing back in 2015 I think one of the things that we learned that was most important is that you have to work with these groups together I think one of the building blocks of the HIV movement from the very early beginnings was nothing about us without us If you talk sometimes here people talk about hard to reach groups No group is hard to reach if you're working with the people in that group because they know who their community is They know what their community needs where they are and how you can reach them And I think for us that meant working with community led organizations in all these countries So with with gay men's organizations with sex worker organizations with people using drug organizations Putting them in the driver's seat asking them what they need And also willing to invest in that because I think for a lot of these groups, especially in lower and middle-income settings HIV is not in their top three problems. They're their number one problem is will I have a meal tomorrow? Where will I have a roof over my head next month? How do I take care of my children? So only by addressing those needs and having What we call sort of a holistic approach you can also start addressing their needs So I think the nothing about us without us was really also in that sense coming out And if you talk to people, it's also mostly about their human rights positions So if you're marginalized if you're criminalized because of who you are What we're seeing happening in Uganda now You cannot address the HIV crisis among for example gay men if you know that there's a penalty Prison penalty on being gay you will not reach that group. So The second thing that we really learn is putting the rights Central to these groups is crucial to get better health outcomes and and ending HIV So you're talking about the direct connection between The rights of LGBTQ Etc and being able to stop the HIV there's there's no way and I think you and AIDS is also leading in that sense But we like Remco said we have made this huge progress in HIV medication that medication is available Condoms are available Testing is available by just a prick in your finger All these things are also available in the countries are mostly available in the countries where this problem is But if you look at a country like Russia Where you cannot give any health Information to gay men at all How can you expect them to protect themselves against HIV if they cannot even inform themselves about HIV? If they go to a doctor they get the message we don't have treatment for people like you That's not a medical issue. That's a human rights issue. And then even back home even in the US now We're seeing a lot of rights being rolled back. Yes with legislation, which is especially People yeah, and then you see that the funding for specifically for HIV treatment is being funded is funneled away from marginalized groups and Only going towards, you know female mothers or for an example and so it's They're using that as a way to attack marginalized groups also Yeah, I think we did a study a couple of years ago looking at the global HIV funding landscape Where we found that four percent of HIV funding is actually going to keep populations While again 70 percent of new infections is a monkey population. So The rest of the funding is is going to other groups that are also being hit so young people women Children and again, that's I think we should really avoid as a movement to being played out against one another So my point at in no means would be to Fund other groups less there should be more funding available and the money should be data-driven Where are the people with the highest risk which approaches are best working and those should be implemented and if you proportionate but also fully funded and I think that's another problem if you look at the global HIV response International donors are pulling away most countries are Carrying a larger burden of the HIV Costs themselves, which is great, but that's stagnating and the epidemic keeps growing So there's there's a big problem. You should look at the division of funding for HIV But also acknowledge that more funding for HIV is needed if we really want to end the pandemic Okay, so AIDS funds has three main strategic goals My understanding is one no new HIV infections two sexual health sexual rights and three HIV cure so Keeping in mind the things that we've been discussing and the issues. How is AIDS funds helping towards that goal? Yes, so I think our overall mission as AIDS phones is working towards a world where everybody is is free to love Fearlessly and that means without stigma without fear for for HIV or STIs And these goals that you describe are sort of our aspirational goals. So that's what we're really working towards I don't expect us to have a world in four years where everybody can enjoy their sexual health But that is what keeps us going That's what makes keeps wakes me up in the morning and that's what we go with one the thought that we go with to sleep at night I Think it basically means addressing the pandemic. So first of all making sure that people Have the space and opportunity not to acquire HIV or STIs if they do that They have the means to treat themselves and keep themselves healthy and alive And I think the final goal like you said which we added I think five or six years ago is really coming to terms And I think Ramco mentioned that at the beginning of the conversation is that in the field of HIV we've we've been so happy with the developments in the field of treatment that We sort of came to accept that as sort of the endpoint. There's treatment now So that's great. Well at the same time if you look at a lot of other diseases Treatment is great, but you want to be cured and I think also in polling and research among people living with HIV Especially young people living with HIV cure is really something that Is desired because it takes away the burden of taking your pills every day It takes away the uncertainty of will there be medication for me a half a year from now or next month But it will also take away the stigma that people are still even if you're on treatment You're still living with HIV or you're a person with HIV and an HIV cure will hopefully take that away and Perhaps we'll talk about that but that that's still far off We know that HIV cure won't be available tomorrow But we felt as AIDS forms is that we need to invest there to make sure that The research takes place in the field of HIV cure But also there we see our role or our niche basically to make sure that also here It's nothing about us without us so that HIV cure is not just something that Scientists do which they play a hugely important role, especially in this phase But also now already people living with HIV are involved in determining What kind of cure would be acceptable? What do they need from from an HIV cure and not just for People living with HIV in the Netherlands but for people living with HIV everywhere in the world And if you consider that there's 38 million people living with HIV most of them on the African continent We also need to have communities living with HIV. They're involved in cure research So that's what we hope to bring to the table as AIDS forms as part of our strategy. Very good And Remka, I'll take it to you a little bit too. I'm speaking on HIV cure research Can you talk about fast-track cities and what that means for the Netherlands and what AIDS funds role is in that? Fast-track cities is a very important initiative And it's initiative which is more towards bringing that number of HIV infections down to zero by making sure that you know The prevention that people need is actually available. So making sure there's prep. There's there's condoms There's other methods to prevent HIV infection And so fast-track cities actually collaboration between cities all over the world to make sure that programs are implemented to make that happen So for us as AIDS funds finding a cure for HIV as Mark mentioned is that next dot on the horizon and You know, I think what is actually quite unique about AIDS funds as a health foundation and sort of a sort of more activistic type of NGO organization is to actually Put this in wording in the strategy and for me that was a motivation to start working at AIDS funds or you know explain the starter mercury in the in the in 90s With the Studies on HIV treatment at the time. I feel that there's similar excitement now on the possibilities that have been sort of on the horizon on the medical field and especially if you look at Advances in oncology, which is actually if you look at the biomedical field Most of the new developments are happening in oncology. So you can learn a lot from what we have learned how we can fight Can you explain your on college oncology for those so oncology is the medical term Broad broad term for people who suffer for cancer and stancher is at least in this part of the world still the most common cause for for For depth So if you look at for example the last 10 years how the Engineering of our immune system and that sounds very futuristic But what we actually have been able to do in a very safe manner is actually take ourselves from patients Treat them outside the body and then give them back to patients then they're sort of Weaponized against cancer that you have in your body. So they're ultimately start attacking the cancer that you have in your body Those developments Look very promising now for other disease areas as well. So they're already Trials out there where people with autoimmune diseases are treated with these sort of of Of develop of new medical interventions and we're very convinced that this is very promising for HIV as well It's not there tomorrow like mark mentioned. This is still a dot on the horizon I often explain the way that we get there as a journey and I take the journey how we got to HIV treatment today as an example When I started my medical career If you remember just after Kings Day in 1989, so that's now a very long time a year ago But we had at that point at that point in time just one HIV drug on the market AZT and there were a couple of new ones that were investigated and which in combination led to a very effective treatment yet When that was brought to patients in 1996 This was still very complicated regimen So I vividly remember 12 pills sometimes you had to take pills on an empty stomach others You had to take on a full stomach. It was just, you know, it was a day job to take your HIV medication as a matter of speak We managed then to combine it into one pill the side effects became less Now we have 30 years later injectables that you have only to take once every two months We have further Developments which may lead into an injection that you only have to take once every six months or so So from a Functional perspective this already comes very close to a cure. So if we talk about the cure what we actually mean by that is that you Have HIV in your body you stop taking antivirals and when on the normal circumstances the HIV would come back and would make you again at risk of becoming sick from HIV or Make makes that you have a risk of transmitting HIV if you have a cure strategy It can actually mean that you are off antivirals for a longer time and yet You have no risk of becoming sick yet. No risk of transmitting the virus Those are two very important points of what a cure strategy is and if you would be able to Achieve that with injectable therapies that you only take every six months It is already something that comes close to what a functional cure could be my prediction would be the next step after that would be that you would have Strategies where in combination? So probably some pills that target the fire or some pills that are more targeted to watch your immune system You can maybe a of the ART free for a period of two years So that will be a longer longer period I protect it with just with antivirals the regimens will become more simple more easy to administer And our dream is that eventually the cure of HIV will be a single shot that will cure everybody Are we there in ten years? I don't think so, but you know for the next 20 or 30 years That is a very realistic outlaw mark. I'm really glad that you mentioned Meeting with community in this search for HIV cure and how important that is because I'm I'm co-chair I'm on the community advisory board working with HIV scientists and researchers in the US and That is something that we stress is that there needs to be communication between the science the research and community What good is a cure if it doesn't meet the actual needs of people who are living with HIV and then you mentioned the engineering aspect of of a potential cure and Immediately, you know, you think of the sci-fi These scary doomsday, you know storylines of what happens with medication going out of control and and that just underscores the importance of Having that constant communication and connection and really trust with healthcare in science community So I'm really glad that that's an emphasis for AIDS phones moving forward It's heartening to know that not just in the US, but elsewhere. That's also a mission No, and I think you're absolutely right. I think it makes it challenging for HIV cure because I think for a lot of us the current HIV treatment is Has a very high quality in a high quality of life So any form of cure needs to match that or to be even be better And it's it's really different if you look at like I'm going to mention cancer There's of course in cancer treatment often there is no other option like it's either you will you will die or you can take a form of treatment and of course your your Reference or the scenarios you're looking at as a patient are completely different from if you are on a chronic disease With a good quality of life. So I think Yes, we need to be involved and we need to be helping out to see what is it that we really need and I think trust is a big big Issue there as well if we look at COVID and we saw how happy we were that a vaccine was developed But then how many people had distrust in whether or not it would work in my country, but also in the African region We saw there was a lot of Skepticism around is this really working is it safe So I think we should also really learn from that experience and not just focus on having a form of cure available But working with community so that there's a good sense of understanding what it is how it works That there's community leadership that also supports the form of cure that could become available so that it's readily acceptable also to for our community and not something that we need to start explaining Once it's there exactly well said When something that Yeah, maybe something that I think it is a general trend That you know is true for all areas of medicines our interventions are becoming more you mentioned to your words sci-fi So we have a lot more explaining to do and I think also for HIV cure Our storytelling is just a more complicated task than it is for HIV treatment People know what a disease is what the virus is people know what the medicine is and they can make a relation that if you take a medicine It will probably inhibit the virus and therefore you won't get sick the story telling with HIV cure is is a very more complicated one and it's also more a two-way street. So it's us telling People who would take an HIV cure what we expect what not to expect It's also us learning from you know, what are the needs what what can we do to make that? Cure strategy Acceptable to everybody because only if it's acceptable to everybody it will work The last thing I want to say about this is that there's no single infectious disease that is actually eliminated by single intervention It's always a combination of different things So the way that I look at the cure strategy is that it's an extra option that people have if you're satisfied with your daily antivirals and you know, you don't have side effects There's no reason why you need to take a cure. So it's not a mandatory thing. It's an extra Thing in the armamentarium that we have to you know to eventually solve the epidemic I'm smiling as you say that because I couldn't agree more and and When you mentioned As an option, you know, even just thinking about the extended release ARVs I Did a video and I was talking about it too and from my personal needs, you know Taking a pill once a day every day is easy for me because I take supplements every day So it's just another what's what's another one other pill on top of you know 15 to 20 pills that I take for bodybuilding and fitness and general health Versus having to schedule an appointment with a doctor every month two months having to go in and having an extremely busy schedule And then that's for me more of a burden than it is of a help at this point So it's definitely not a given that a new, you know Medication or a new way of taking medication is going to suddenly be acceptable to the community and that people have different needs That we don't even know and unless we have those conversations So this is so true and there's always this individual health. There's public health from an individual health point of view it needs to be an option and I think whatever form of cure strategies we design it will always be that option From the public health point of view and looking at the number of HIV infections going up in the world This is a must-have to make sure that eventually curb the epidemic. So there's two different different sites here. Yeah Where do you both see? AIDS phones having an impact moving forward in the next few years and the next decade even What does that look like? I'm bringing the ship into shore a little bit we're coming up on the hour and I don't want to keep you all Yeah, I think a lot is happening now I think there's a few things that that like I said we have we have a mission and we have some dream goals I think one of those things that that gets me really excited which is more national thing I do think we discussed in the Netherlands a little bit. There's some challenges here But at the same time we see that we're moving towards less than a hundred HIV infections a year in the country Which makes us one of the first countries on track to really move towards zero new HIV infections I think that will be a great thing for the people living in the Netherlands But I think it could also serve as an example to really showcase that if you have your policies in order Which we don't always have in the Netherlands, but we're pushing for that That you can actually really end the epidemic. So I think that's really one of the things that we're focusing on I think the other thing that Will keep us busy in the sense is that Is that human rights perspective that we talked about we see that in a lot of the countries where we work We're working with these community organizations. We're actually seeing a pushback We know that in more than 40 countries around the world the HIV epidemic is growing the number of new HIV infections are growing despite all the medical Advancements we've discussed and that's because people are criminalized people are discriminated people are not able to access their funding So I think we're looking at a world where HIV and that's already the case in many instances is more and more becoming a human rights Issue with a very strong health focus and the other way around and that also means for our organization to Focus more and more on that kind of work and then finally I think is really the dream that we've described in Contributing to an HIV cure that will never be something that we will do as AIDS films That will be a huge collaboration of scientists and communities around the world Mobilizing the funding needed the scientific brain power behind it, but I really hope that as AIDS films we can Contribute to all those aspects But mostly also to the fact that we we need that nothing about us without us also an HIV cure and not when the cure is ready but from Yesterday basically and I think that's what something that will keep pushing for to Hopefully eventually make a form of cure available for everyone everywhere living with HIV if they choose to be cured Okay, that's exciting and helpful And is there anything that we haven't discussed today or you like to share touch on for you personally or the organization Well, maybe you know to touch upon what mark just mentioned You know sometimes we have these tragedy sessions and we ask ourselves the question Are we still in business in in in ten years time? and then we say to each other hopefully not but if I look at One of our partner organizations the case fee that's a touch to Colossus foundation So to Colossus has been a disease where you know, we also have seen in the 1950s Actually quite a dramatic change with the introduction of antimicrobials at the time It became from an endemic disease in this country to something that is still Occurring but on an incidental basis and mostly is an import disease yet the case of the establishing 1904 is still establishing and thriving as an organization Especially because there's still a very big global challenge globally, it's still the most Prevalent infectious diseases where people die from so You know, I think it You have to be in there for the long run Especially if you look at the in the international aspects things don't change over for night And so for me, you know, it's very exciting time to work at its funds because all the developments in the field and what we can do with HFE cure but You know, I think that you have to really see that as a journey Starting point and something that maybe looks like a first version of HFQ or maybe around the horizon But the end game a single shot where everybody can be cured without any side effects. That is actually still a long journey Where can folks go to either follow you and or the organization? Well, you can go to AIDS funds org for our international side, you can follow me on on Twitter Mark from a F And on Instagram and all the social media channels you you'll find them online And yeah, I'm really excited if people want to do that. And is there anything that folks can do to support? Yeah, I think it's great and especially for for people outside of the Netherlands to follow our work to be vocal about What we need from a community of people living with HIV so to participate in online discussions To make yourself vocal against the pushback movement that we're seeing you discussed in the pushback in the US But also in Uganda make your voice heard that this is not acceptable and of course we are fundraising Organizations, so if people want to fund our work or participate with a financial contribution Please be in touch and we're always very happy to talk to you Well, thank you so much. This has been a fascinating conversation. I feel like we've Just barely scratched the surface of a lot of very interesting topics. I would I'm sure people are gonna have questions comments After watching this video, I would love to follow up with either of you both of you in the months to come and and just keep following your journey Thank you. Thanks for your your time reading. Thank you both Thank you. All right folks. I hope you enjoyed this interview Please like this video if you'd like to subscribe if you haven't already and hit that bell So that you get a notification every time a new video is posted and I will see you guys soon. Cheers