 All right. Thanks so much for being with us folks for our second debate thrilled to have you back from lunch We are going to be debating of course whether or not only fans creators are economic economic or Exploiting customers loneliness and that's independent of sex So regardless of the sex of the only fans creator regardless of the sex of the the customer of only fans Want to let you know as well We're going to be doing that same pre-debate poll via a show of hands if you do tend to think that only fans creators are economically exploiting the loneliness of Customers even just a smidge or a lot. Would you slip your hand up for the pre-debate poll? If you think that only fans creators are economically exploiting customers Right the one They are exploiting customers. Yeah, that's a good way to put it And then remember same thing as the first debates poll if you're right in the middle if you're like I'm totally 50-50 just ask you to not vote second one is Let Ryan you at the count if you do not think that only fans creators are economically exploiting customers Excellent. All right, and then as I mentioned, we'll do a percentage basis So we'll do another post-debate poll at the end But want to say that poll is for manifold who is our sponsor for the conference Want to let you know if you're watching online check out the link you can vote right now on manifold guessing which side you think will Be more persuasive check out the link in the description box And if you're watching right now from in person you can use your phone and click on the QR code up here on the Screen in order to vote who you think will be most persuasive and then the objective Criterion will be whatever percent change in either direction the hand vote takes toward the end of the debate But without any further ado or thrilled to have our speakers We're gonna go left to right in terms of whether or not it is exploitation So starting with Alex thrilled to have you here he and not so eridite will be taking the yes position And then we'll hear from Farah and destiny on the no position Alex Thanks so much the floor is all yours. All right starting off first So I'm gonna give my opening statement pretty quick because I honestly don't think there's gonna be too much disagreement But in essence, I do think that only fans exploits The customers the same way casino exploits its customers. It's something that is a Conscious I guess scam in a way right because you're paying for a quasi relationship That's what the guys think they're getting in reality Chatting with some dude in India who is pretending to be the girl and it's like this quasi relationship that they form Which doesn't really ultimately turn you kind of good outcome. However People are adults and they should be able to make their own decisions The only caveat I would say is that there should be some kind of disclaimer that says just as an FYI You're not chatting to a hot girl. You're chatting some dude in India Yeah, so I think when it comes to the case of only fans, I think it's a conversation that needs to be Honestly Most of the people that tend to talk about this are Extremely biased to their side. They either want only fans content readers be slandered as dirty degenerate whores who are corrupting society or there's kind of on the other side this like romanticization of only Is it exploitative I would say yes, obviously so but the benefits of the platform probably actually outweighs the harm that it's doing and so I think it's a type of platform that if you just Honestly looked at some of the issues with it and corrected those You would have overall a safer sex works platform for women and a easy access Okay, I don't think it's exploitative at all I think it's actually a net good for society for both the creators and the consumers to respond to Alex's point About there needs to be some sort of caveat that you're not speaking to an actual sex worker But maybe a typist typically it's a hybrid between the creator and the typist and also when you're engaging with a sex worker You're looking for a fantasy like you're already forfeiting a three-dimensional relationship with a woman because you're looking for an instant response Like I'm an only fans creator and guys are more pissed if they don't get an instant response than if they're talking to an actual woman They're looking for that Cyborg relationship in a sense in same way when you'd go to a strip club You don't want the girl who's going by crystal to tell you her real name And you don't want her to actually tell you that she feels disgusted by the way you're touching her You're looking for the fantasy. It's sexual escapism. And so to actually gets exploitative to I don't know to fulfill that fantasy for guys is just counterintuitive to the whole reason why guys You know engage with sex workers I think that when we talk about exploitation and we talk about a services exploitation I think we have to be careful to define what exploitation is I think that oftentimes when people talk about sex workers being Exploitative of the men that purchase their services It feels like the definition that we're using for exploitation is there is a need that's being fulfilled by another person that could be fulfilled by Somebody else and for some reason it's just we place kind of a unique burden on sex work for Girlfriends or I guess in some cases boyfriends to be fulfilling these needs and if and if that need isn't being fulfilled Then we call the other person fulfilling at the sex worker somebody who's partaking in exploitation We don't apply the standard to anything else when I moved out of my parents house You know they didn't cook food for me But I wouldn't claim that Applebee's is exploiting my lack of having a parent in the household I wouldn't say that because my mom doesn't like so my clothes that Walmart is engaging in the exploitation of my desire to have clothing And even for more like personal services, right? Like a massage parlor is not taking advantage of my lack of having a partner to rub my back a therapist Isn't taking advantage of me not having a good friend to talk to An apprenticeship that I might pay for isn't taking advantage of me not having like an uncle or a father to show me a trade So I think that when we talk about exploitation, I think the really important thing is we have to define that exploitation is In some sort of transaction with somebody that doesn't have the wherewithal to actually consent to the activities taking place So for instance, we can talk about the exploitation of children a nine-year-old might not know the damage they're doing to their health by working In a coal mine, that's why labor of children is often considered Exploitative is because they don't know the risks that their body might be taking in order to engage in certain forms of labor Or if we talk about like scams all people might think that there really is a poor dude in Nigeria That just needs five hundred dollars in order to lock up his million dollars of funds from his Nigerian kingfather You know, so we would call these things exploitation because either one There's an inability from one side of the person to actually consent knowingly and with full information to the activity Because they just don't have the capability of it or two on the other side We've got somebody engaging in a dishonest transaction. I think that when we talk about sex work as a whole We're gonna have to fulfill one or the others of these sides I think it's hard to make the argument that you're if you're 18 or older You don't know what you're getting when you're buying something from only fans as far as said like when you go to a strip club I mean if you if you think the girl's name is really crystal. Yeah, I don't know to tell you and If you are and then for the other side, I heard Alex put this argument for it that like faking DMs might be An unethical thing if you're not upfront about it, which could be the case But that's just an argument against one type of sex work That's not an argument against all of only fans or all of sex work So I submit that if we're gonna have a debate on the exploitation of sex work We need to be working within the strict definitions of exploitation or if we're gonna further expand the definition of exploitation We need to also understand that we're arguing for the banning of any service that could lead to a detrimental effect in the long term Somebody's health such as gambling alcohol consumption of fast food over consumption of video games I am in favor of banning League of Legends though, and that's my argument. Yeah Yeah, I guess probably the most important part then to start is what are we defining as exploitation? Sure my definition of exploitation is what I gave I would say that it's if you're dealing with a customer that can't give informed consent Or if you are intentionally misrepresenting what it is you're selling to somebody do you think casinos are exploitative But I think what casinos gambling or exploitative. Yeah under my definition. No, okay, what about? let's say Selling drugs Becoming hardcore drugs like heroin I would say it could qualify but the difference there is that kind of what he was saying Exploitation takes place if the customer can't give informed consent or like fully conscious consent and the difference is that the American Psychological Association does not include pornography addiction under the DSM 5 because it's just not an addiction There's no compulsion which is like the cardinal feature of what the cardinal hallmark of what an addiction is There's no withdrawal symptoms like if you choose to take your credit card information out of only fans You're not gonna be having headaches You're not gonna be like scratching your face thing then thinking there's like bugs on your face But people who do have a gambling addiction there is a lack of compulsion, which is why there's a difference you are Customer about the DSM stuff We should probably be cautious because most behavioral addictions don't have the like drug induced withdrawal symptoms that you're alluding to right But part of withdrawal symptoms if you look at like the six measures of what makes something addictive not that we need to get too much into this but Porn addiction is a decently established thing. There's increasing literature establishing that there's internet addiction And so porn would probably fall into like the only fans They're absolutely can be addicted proponents to any sort of behavior particularly anything that like hits fast and reinforces quickly and the more Immediate and the more reinforcing that it is is why like drugs are so addicting in many ways is because the moment you feel sad You can take it and boost your mood. That's like the psychological addicted element there So while I agree there's no drug systems going on that are making people addicted to porn There is behavioral mechanisms absolutely that are going to be hijacked to establish you would have to establish that basically no behavioral addictions exist Well, do you think lack of compulsion is involved with porn addiction? I don't know if compulsion is the I don't know if I would agree that compulsion is like a fundamental element of what we Categorize as addiction anyways because to be fair There's no consensus among the literature of whether addiction is impulsive or compulsive It's probably somewhere in between. We know that it seems to interact a little bit with OCD and like the Brain structures associated with that, but it's not one-to-one. So there is Compulsive elements, but there's also highly impulsive elements as well. Let me give one analogy for far So let's say that you are drug dealer you sell heroin you come up to me I'm totally sober an adult can make up my own mind and you say hey Alex I'm gonna give you this heroin really really cheap, and I'm like fuck. Yeah, that's awesome Are you is that exploitative behavior on your part? I would say no no Okay, but I think the the reason why the sale of drugs is considered exploitation is because doing certain types of drugs is It's considered a transformative experience the type of person you are who's consumed heroin a bunch is Transformatively and fundamentally different. I'm talking about I've never done heroin before yeah If you've never done heroin before and somebody making you an offer to sell you heroin assuming that you're an adult You're mentally sound you're you know you're not yasua main or somebody with downtown or something then obviously like yeah You have the ability to choose whether or not you want to buy or not buy heroin There's no compulsion there to call it exploitative is strange. I don't understand Well, you can make that argument for kids working at China sweatshop They have the option where they want to go there or not right do they yeah in some cases sure I don't think so. I think that's why sweatshops sweatshops aren't considered unethical because the kid decides I could go to You know like happy go lucky middle school today or I could go and work in the horrible conditions of the sweatshop I think that sweatshops are considered unethical because oftentimes they're seen as one the people are too young to even Have the option to make another choice and two because they have no other recourse. They have no other exactly So that's the whole point so they go to the sweatshop because that's their best alternative The other option is like staying at home trying to start your own business. It's the same thing with your own business in China Just it's hypothetically possible Like what you don't think there's any Chinese businessman Well, hold on. Wait, wait, wait, I think I think that when we talk about children who are in sweatshops in China I don't think we're thinking of the average person is capable of launching an own their own entrepreneurship at like age 10 or something It's possible in the same way. It's hypothetically possible. Let's say he's 13. He can be a streamer like you and I You know what if that's your idea you want to hang your hat on then That's the whole point though, right? It is in that sense like so you just then have to say that Sweatshops are not exploitative because they have a choice. It's the same thing with the guys who subscribe to far as only fans or any girls only fans It's because they don't have a better alternative. They're doing it because they're lonely They all know how to talk to girls in real life and that's there so yes They could sit home a jerk off. Sure, right, but I just want to define something really quick Okay, because this part of the argument highlights something very important is there's been consent and informed consent oftentimes the understanding of informed consent gets Trivialized into this understanding of consent, which is well, could you make a different choice, right? Like technically any abused prostitute could just not work for the pimp anymore any abused spouse could just leave their husband Any abused child could petition the court to become an orphan or a ward of the state But the informed consent means does the person like are they reasonably Expected to have a meaningful ability to engage with the particular system of exploitation that they're a part of I think that children in sweatshops are not meaningfully expected to be able to just go home and become full-time streamers They don't have a realistic option out. That's a one to a million shot The same that a person that gets addicted to heroin I couldn't get a lucky break and become like an actor in Hollywood and I end up like Chris Fireley or something But I don't think that's like you're making the argument that it's less exploitative. That's it's less addictive, which is true But it's still exploitative our restaurants exploitative. No Sodium it's not healthy for you it causes long-term cardiovascular disease With the differences with the restaurant you kind of know what you're getting right Well, you and you're done with only with only fans. Do you think that people do you think there's like? Like disclaimers that say hey, you're probably gonna be addicted to and spend thousands of dollars on this girl You're probably gonna be simping hardcore You're probably never to get into a real-life relationship because you spend all your money All your time 89% of only fan subscribers are married men So this idea that it's just lonely virgins who are subbing to only fans is just where's that statistic for them? So I it's actually brought the study here in my bag if we want it That is actually correct from the one study in 2021 Obviously, it hasn't been replicated, but there actually is a really unexpected finding in most SEM research Which finds that most the people who consume it are married men, which is a very odd finding the argument I make is Why would we say that married men aren't lonely when their divorce rate is that like 50% One of the biggest indicators of men killing themselves is usually post divorce or post being fired So I agree that they are married men I just don't know if that substantiates to me enough whether or not there's like essentially this bone All right, so you're setting post divorce obviously for type of married men We're talking about free divorce and then also I can imagine if they're getting divorced or if they're on only fans There could be right and this is an area well all fully, but there's just a data gap I don't know if the married men that are on only fans are like me and my wife love only fans I mean it's a bonding couple moment or whether they're like God my wife won't touch me anymore Cuz I got fat and my dick small so I have to go on only fans to get I don't know which group Is is the 89% I'm gonna guess it's heterogeneous There's probably some married men that are very liberal that are very open about their sexuality with their wife And it is like an enhancing thing one of the most important finding in most SEM research Is the effect of porn on the individual has everything to do with their beliefs and attitudes about porn itself, right? If you're a couple who thinks that porn enhances the sexual dynamic you think that it's like Exciting and role play we just broadly see that it's good for everyone, but if it's somewhat like ram down the throat We see women for example tend to only want to form when their partners ask for it And we see a big escalation and then security in those women and a decrease in like sexual satisfaction those couples again That's part of because of the belief system. That's operating when they engage important So just because the 89% isn't evident to me whether or not they're a vulnerable population It's just a really interesting fight. I want to go back to what Farah was saying in her opening statement You were saying that it's positive for men and women I can understand how you make the argument for women because they're making money How in the world is it positive for men? Okay So Lytman and Leicester did a study in 2023 in the Journal of sexuality and culture and they found that of the population of men Who engage with only fans workers? They actually experienced an improvement in sexual confidence higher self-esteem higher body positivity You mean you can make a face. I do not buy that for a second Something for some random girl on only fans is going to make you give you confidence and give you more body positivity I mean you were the one talking about guys facing incessant rejection So yeah, maybe talking to a model even if it's a guy in India cosplaying as a model telling you yeah, your dick looks so great It's gonna raise your confidence That's going out and actually self-improving me and real girls in real life This is kind of this is kind of that logic that women should withhold sex from broke men until they've reached their financial pinnacle Some do but you're basically saying it's just an unethical for me to have sex with broke men because I'm offering them a sexual checkpoint That's not congruent with their financial peak and I should just reserve sex for millionaires No, it does because you're saying that they're not working on themselves But that logic women should reserve themselves a sexual trophies for men who've like crossed the finish line Right, but because the difference here is that you are a partner in that relationship So ideally if the guy doesn't completely suck in bed, you're getting a benefit. You're getting to have good sex, right? Hopefully ideally right versus in this situation It's a one-way street the girls taking all the money and the guys just spending all his mental financial and emotional energy on this quasi BS relationship which is ultimately going to lead him to be lonely depressed And it's gonna make him have a harder time meeting girls in real life Like if you you could take that five hours a day you spend jerking off to whatever Who's ever solely fans and go out and do shit and actually meet girls in real life But the problem is because there's that easy escape the guys are not doing that So again, you should want to say I think we have to be really clear here Okay, when we argue about whether or not only fans is exploitation You're going to like the most Extremely addicted people and then you're trying to present that as being the norm This would be like me saying like do we really think that like selling alcohol is good when if you drink you're gonna be drinking You know 24 hours a day you're gonna be an alcoholic You're gonna abuse your family you're gonna have to rush to the liver when you're 35 years old like you the obvious response Okay, well not everybody that drinks does so you can't point to the most abused or most addicted most extreme part Because in that case again going back to my initial argument We have to ban fast food. We're the most obese nation on the planet There's a difference between something being legal someone being exploitive. We're not arguing that you should ban only fans We're just saying it's exploitative so the whole the whole making illegal thing But then it's every single thing then that's like taking advantage of a want or desire or a lack of something are all of those things Okay, I'm gonna take a bit of a different approach because I don't know if I agree with that I think part of the issue that we're having is I don't know if I agree with your definition of exploitation I don't know if exploitation is fundamentally about informed consent I think exploitation is because that's making exploitation about the consumer and the individual whereas to me exploitation I mean, I think I looked up on like Cambridge or something It just one of the most common definitions is the act of using somebody unfairly for your own advantage, right? And so the question is is there structures with it and only fans that do allow individuals to take advantage of Specifically the highest risk. I don't want only fans to be banned. I don't want fast food to be banned I don't want alcohol sales to be banned. However, I do want disclaimers on alcohol I do want to make sure that there are like off ramps of resources for people who are Massively abusing alcohol to be protected reality is if you're a dumbass who pays and only fans girls for a girlfriend experience And you're like, I'm pretty sure Sally Lou is gonna want to fuck me someday You are a dumbass, but the issue is as a liberal society. We care about them we want to create protections and off ramps for these individuals and my concern with only fans right now is While it the I basically would fully agree with you about women It's the best possible sex work situation for women. They get all control They get to set the terms money is out of the pimp's hands. The issue is that Some women on the space are being really ethical. They add disclaimers They make sure that the men know for buying their services have been like this is not real But that is not all women. There are many women on only fans who go on tinder and bumble to promote their service Dating at site website. There are many girls who aren't only fans one tick tock and give voice affirmation Every single day be like, oh, baby, your cock is so beautiful and I love you so much, right? And guys are just like yes in the morning dating off of this and then paying for their PPVs And so there is a system within only fans that is Creating the most high-risk population of men to get sucked in and all I want is a critique on that to be honest About that and go how do we offset that can we set up this thing? Yeah, I think okay. I think you can have a critique of this But I think that if we're gonna have this it needs to apply to everything else That means that on every single Gatorade commercial where I see some athlete, okay run a fucking mile in three minutes I need a disclaimer saying drinking Gatorade will not make you a professional athlete when I walk into a casino I need a giant dude holding a sign saying you're probably not gonna win a million dollars When I walk into literally any possible thing I need to have like warnings or safeguards are saying like by the way You might not benefit from this like in the most insane way possible What is there any industry there's a million industries without safeguards also just real quick the whole making illegal a banning thing It's a complete red herring because everyone here agrees that only fans should not be made illegal I'm saying is that there is is there any other type of thing? Yeah, alcohol tobacco sales all of the farm pharmacy pharmaceuticals some of the disclaimers most While you can sue if Gatorade like is too aggressive in their advertising and lies too much Disclaimers that you're asking for are not like this the disclaimers on on cigarettes and alcohol Yeah, they have to do your help. I but what I need now you're telling me okay. I grew up playing metal hairstyle I want your cowboy bebop. I didn't remember any disclaimers on cigarettes thing You're not gonna be really fucking cool. You start smoking like nobody ever made that That's why a lot of people start smoking Something like this. I want girls that are actively knowingly trying to blur the line between Expectation and fantasy to be have some sort of TOS for Regulations so there are some women who do the girlfriend experience who are explicit that it's a role play that it's explicit It's a fantasy and there are disclaimers and they define the relationship really clearly and there are tons and tons of only found metals I didn't have to look very far on only fans advice on the Reddit page to find girls advising other girls about how to convince men That there might be a chance that they buck them so that they spend more money on them. This is real There's an entire pornhub section of only fans girls meets up with fans and fucks And I agree it's a fantasy the issue is that some of these individuals lean hard into the fantasy And who's going to fall for that the reality is the higher more vulnerable probably most dispossessed individual term That's what I want to I think I just think we don't have that expectation for other things Like he's saying like when I go with my male friends to a restaurant They always think the waitress is like flirting with them because they want to tip like should the waitress have to Like by the way, I'm just doing this for money. No because it's socially understood that when you eat at a restaurant You're gonna give someone a tip that that's that's a common thing that's been around forever What is it socially understood that the waitress is only being well she's doing that then you can mark argue that yeah That is mildly exploitative because she's trying to leverage a false sense of attraction, right? Leave the guy on so he gives her more money. I'm not saying it should be illegal, but yeah Like if you go to Hooters, that's also what you're expecting when you go to only fans That's what you're expecting. So no, it's not exploitative. Do you think you're voluntarily seeking it? Do you think most guys on the only fans are happy? I Just gave you a study that that proved that like they haven't I just don't believe that study for a second seems like the Biggest BS ever you also didn't believe that 89% of subs are married men I don't know what to tell you like Where where's the study that's coming from that's showing that all these men are being happy on only fans I every single only fit do you have her men who subscribe to only fans looks like they literally want to kill themselves Because you're explicitly a dating coach. Yeah, those types of men are going to right you're targeting the outliers who are already striking out That's why they're coming to you right far. Would you say okay? Here's answer this question really honesty Would you say that how how many subscribers the other only thing okay? Let's just assume it's a thousand how many what percentage of your only fans Subscribers are people you actually meet up with and hook up in real life. I Don't know what's possible zero. I go through my Instagram DMs for a day Zero That's that's kind of the point that I'm trying to make is I think that the expectation needs to be it is not There is no expectation now It is possible that you were charismatic enough with the wait for it that she's like mmm Yeah, and she's into it and that's fine, but that most people know that that's the rarity I don't want men going into this being like goddamn if I raise her enough There's a chance. I think that that's the area where again most men are informed enough to know that that isn't a chance I'm concerned about the small population that are at higher risk. No OF craters are leading men on in that sense Like I lived in an only fans house for six months I met like 30 new craters a day not a single OF model is ever saying like there's a chance. We'll meet up I'm sorry. That is a lot Okay Most of these guys aren't gonna actually meet up with them because like I said they're married India texting them instead of the girl Because the guy thinks that he's building a relationship with the girl, but he's not he's building relationship with Right, but do you think that if that guy knew he was texting the Indian that he would actually be engaging with sending him dick pics? Honestly, I do. I've seen Dr. Phil specials where they bring on guys Because they like the intimacy I just want to like back us up a little bit so you're saying that most Or all women are not intentionally trying to blur the line of saying there might be a chance That group that these guys you say that most women are not doing this I'm sure they know I said in terms of meeting up in person I've never met someone who says like yeah, I'll be in this area at this time Are they giving them an internet sexual and romantic relationship 100% but it's completely online sure But is there some element so are there girls who go on Tinder and bubble to promote their only yeah a dating site Yeah, okay. What's the purpose behind that if you're not trying to blur the line between reality, which is exactly opposite They do that to funnel people to their only fans because they go to their Instagram to their bio link to their OF Yeah, I don't I don't think that the putting your profile on Tinder is just a way to market your shit I don't think that I don't think the goal is to like when you go on Tinder because you see them Only fans may think about a higher chance of meeting them. I don't even know if those profiles are really even there I'm pretty sure they just geolocated across wherever and then they just throw their 10 they throw their only kinds like other things to mark their shit Do you think that that behavior is aimed to just be like empty promotional like I'm obviously just an only fans model selling fake Like a fake fantasy or are they trying to say I'm a local in your area We can maybe meet up on this inner thing. Also. Have you checked out my only fans? Which is like my I had agents who pitched it to me and I turned it down because I thought it was too Stammy but like the whole point is to try to funnel people from hinge on to your Instagram just to click that link So you have a page link and not to like lead people Before like Tinder like girls who do this just to grow their Instagram like even without like even without trying to funnel To an only fans there for a while for several years now girls will just like link their Instagrams on Tinder with the hope That you click it and follow them and they grow their following or whatever I'm not saying that that behavior by itself is the problem I'm saying there is the systemic issue within only fans and it is not all only fans creators I've gone on I've looked through some girls who offered GFB have explicit disclaimers on their page They're pretty much copy and paste and that's pretty good. This is a fantasy. It's not real I have a partner. It is only fantasy if you expect it to be more It will never be but there are also lots of women who are absolutely leaning into teasing the fact of whether or not this Potentially become a relationship and that is explicitly what I'm saying is is exploitative and Should stop on on only fan I think that if you want to make the argument that there is going to be some section of people in the industry that are Exploitative, I think everybody here would have to agree that to that by default much the same that this is true of Every single industry that sells any amount of entertainment There's got to be some level of people that are exploitative Sure, but only fan seems to get a special thing of it like we want to broaden this I like I don't know how much daylight there is between you and Alex's position because it seems like Alex is saying that this is the norm And you're saying that this is like a Small percentage of it. All right, what is your guys opinion on like? What are the percentage of only fans creators that you think it doesn't be exact But I'm just curious approximately you think are engaging in behavior that you would comfortably define as exploitative I mean it depends how far you go down exploitative like is it Exploitative for the girl to lead the guy on does she have to explicitly promise to meet him? Wait, what does it lead the guy on man? Like giving the idea that they're gonna meet up. What is giving the idea if you chat with the girls that leading Yeah, if the girls flirting with him, which again is some dude in India saying oh, yeah, I love your big dick Haha, if I'm ever in your area will meet up. Wait, wait, wait, we're leaving the guy on Okay, wait, I want to drill down this before we go down. Yeah, okay when you say lead on you said three different statements in there He he you're funny. You've got a big dick. Let's meet up eventually two of these are online flirtations The third one I would say is probably is maybe leading on right, but you're mixing all of these together Okay, what if it's more subtle if he says Yeah, you know, maybe someday I'll visit your city. Haha. I'm more subtle If the guy is himself suggesting it the girl suggested, haha That's probably some form of like leading on sure What is the percentage of like all the only fans girls that we think are engaged in this behavior? Depends on which behavior we're identifying right so for Alex for I want to know what percentage both of you think is Exploitation because it's not what you're talking about is like 2% so it sounds weird No, only fans like but it sounds like Alex is like 70 so I think some of the more extreme behaviors would be really small Right girls being like let's meet up and you pay for my like visa. Obviously. I think that's a very small It's gonna be mostly girls coached by Andrew tape, right? Okay, so we're saying we say like we'll say less than five Right, that's the most extreme group. The issue is I think that there are a number of occurring behaviors towards that and TOS Should probably be before hey, can you spend send me $5,000 so I can move in with you, right? I think the TOS should be extended a little bit higher than that So my issue would be for example when I was looking at the girlfriend experience advice board on the only fans thing One of the questions was how often when you offer the girlfriend experience do men fall in love and they said almost Always and the answers of a lot of these girls was these men know what they're consenting to It's not my fucking problem if they're too stupid to realize that it's fantasy and that to me feels a little yet It feels like we can have a harder line with these women with like not just these women because it's also men I'm only fans because to be honest I would bet male only fans offer probably even more of this boyfriend experience than women do there has to be a Harder line of saying you cannot Imply and lie as much as possible towards the edge not as far as inviting them over to your house Make them think that this fantasy might in your case I think you can't be led to believe that you're the special It would be a lot more admirable if you just own it and you were like yeah, you know what like yeah Sure, we're taking money from these sims, but you know, it's a free country. It should be legal It is legal. So you know it is what it is I'm a businesswoman this how I make my money instead of trying to like basically say oh It's actually a good thing for the man like do you think if a casino owner was talking on this debate pound He was like yeah, you know my casino is actually helping man Would that be a fair thing for him to say if he cited a study sure But I cited a study that proves that like I said it in just in the hypothetical like let's pretend There's no study in response to what you were saying about Because you completely like detoured from what she was saying So you were saying that the parasocial element is what makes it exploitative, but I'm saying like I would say you're a streamer Right, there's probably men in your audience who are in love with you like you start off every stream being like I'm never gonna be friends with you people you might think of them in your area And we do like a meet and greet or something or you meet me at switch on that will become friends, but we won't I just want you to All know I'm not your actual friend, right? I'm making money off you part of what I'm talking about is the population I'm not trying to appeal to the loneliest men and go hey guys like You're not trying to but I would say there's a lot of lonely people who can like fester and you know Actually actually I would actually I would actually qualify in a harder I think the percentage of lonely people not to attack my own audience is actually probably far higher in the streamer world And it isn't the only fans world just because of the massive amount of time sink you have in the streamer world There's probably people if I had to guesstimate Then cut the mic for the DJ Gears, okay, but like the average only fan subscriber probably has a more successful Social life than the average like online youtuber stream content consumer that's watching for five plus hours a day I think I feel pretty comfortable sure I would probably agree with that then again I mean I'm happy to go into the ethics of care social dynamics as well The issue is that I think streamers overstep this line all the time the question is am I? Manipulating their loneliness specifically to rake as much money as possible from them and lying to them bold-faced You don't think that's the nature of a twitch streamer. I don't think that's Yeah, some some I would say are are you don't think the business model of any streamer is to make money off someone with way too much Great time in a lack of a healthy social life in order to make money No, I would say that I would cause negative outcomes for them, right? It's on with the intention of causing negative outcomes. Is that what I go in with the mindset of Your own consciousness to think about but that's exactly what's happening It wasn't answered. Do you think if I'm a casino owner? I won't Caesar's or whatever and I'm like, yeah guys You know my casino. It's actually helping people it's helping guys It's helping my customers. Would you say that that's a fair statement for me to say it was not based in any reality or studies? Then no, okay, I just don't think it's why why is it not because I'm taking their money And they're not getting anything return besides short-term dopamine. Hold on wait wait So even your example your example could be defeated with with certain data. Let's say hypothetically Let's say there's an area of dispossess people people with low economic activity or people. There's I don't know It's a it's a shitty area commit a lot of crime whatever bullshit Let's say that you set up a casino there and let's say you employ a lot of people there are people and they go in a gamble Maybe some of them get a dig to maybe it's bad But overwhelmingly like the amount of crime falls people go there and they have fun there they watch shows they go to eat They do whatever you could make that argument that my casino in this area Is actually been like a net gain for like the people of this city if that was the case would it be talking about for the People of the city I'm talking about the customers. Yeah Let's say that that was the case that that happened would then it be a fair for him to make that statement Coming to the casino it has improved the lives of the local air and not the customers the customers Before this my customers were out of the street. They were fighting with people. They were doing whatever you lose money doing Every piece of entertainment society you lose money you lose money playing video games you lose money going up You lose money buying drugs you everything is losing money Yes, do you think gang members were shooting truck in the street? Oh, well now there's a casino So I don't have to perform Go in and gamble like that analogy doesn't hold any water Hold on not only does it not hold what it might actually perfectly hold water I don't know 1 million percent, but I it wouldn't surprise me if for instance in Romania We're our good mutual friend Andrew tape resides that gang dealers doing investments into things like casinos might be better than them Doing investments into things like drug trades. Maybe it's possible, right? I'm not saying that this is 100% what could happen or Native Americans feel like when they run casinos It benefits them people go and visit they feel like they have fun Like why get in between the the transaction that everybody is consenting to no one is saying in between This is a complete red herring the idea that we want to make it illegal or block I say this unethical immoral who are you that's a different question Who are you to say that the customer that goes and spends a hundred bucks on blackjack or craps for the night? Isn't feeling like you got a good spend for his money. You got a good return for his money I'm sure you can make that argument like anything. Oh, yeah, I spent then make it Okay, the same thing with a car dealership say the car dealer knows you don't know shit about car or the mechanic He knows you don't know shit about car he upcharges you like crazy You think you got a good deal, but was that not exploitative since you totally rip you off Wait, how are the only fans girl? I know how to beat my dick. What are they telling me that I don't already know You're not an only fans like a person that will be fall into that To active only fans right now. I am only I am one of these I know they're not gonna date me I Okay, I'm just trying to figure out like if if like what is what is that you what is the harm of a guy? Subscribing to only fans to jerk off the exclusive sexual material. What is the harm there? Because Alex it feels like you again, I felt like I was in your position Alex What is your position on the harm being caused people that buy sex from only fans? Yeah, I can quantify the harm So there's many first of all porn addiction is a real thing this is not thoroughly So you are engaging for addiction is desensitizing your dopamine receptors is gonna make you more likely have erectile dysfunction That's also been found and the biggest thing is you're wasting money and time on girls So you will never be able to meet have relationship with and then the day most guys want a relationship Most guys want to be with a girl that loves them and that can never ever happen on only fans Fire will not meet up with a single guy from her only fans because she knows that they're all a bunch of loser Sips right she subconsciously knows that or they're married men who want to keep their infidelity You know confined to a screen, but why would they Cheating in a more moderate way. They're like, oh, you know, it's it's better than them going out But I'm saying a lot of them don't actually want to see the models because they're you know Waiting for their wife to maybe leave the house and they go on onlyfans.com since they're married Do you think if you made a community post saying hey, I am now officially down to meet up with everyone? How many percentage of them would you think would say fuck yeah, I don't know just ballpark a ballpark percent? I don't know But that's every single streamer yes, if I made that post what do you think my canvassing operations came from Maybe we're disanalogists my argument isn't I don't really I'm not concerned about being like maybe they want to hang out with me That's again the fight of every streamer. My issue is lying and selling a Expected reality that doesn't exist. That's my major concern. How does it not exist? It's existing Pretending if you're pretending to be a girlfriend in every way functionally and you haven't even agreed to a GFE experience Which absolutely happens one of the most common things is you slide into the DMs you say hey good morning There's absolutely this type of engagement with the young men You are in every way Leaning as hard as you can on hoping that they believe that they might be able to meet up with you or have some even long-term Real friendship and relationship and it's not real. That's the problem if it is real some only fans content creators like no It is real. I actually do want to meet up with people I do like my community and I do like to hang out and we are friends That's again different my entire concern is the ethics of the individual engaging if you are leaning as hard as you On these things yes, so there's an uncomfortable push or maybe not fair, okay, but I feel like it's pretty central to argument How many guys DMing girls Actually think they're gonna get into a relationship because it feels like you're hinging a lot of your argument on the fact This is a little more work on on an only thing we're talking about. So my question is probably initially Maybe one percent the question is I think the question for me is if the girl Engages in such a way that I am concerned about how often does that one percent go to ten because they are convinced that they're special in that Engage and that's the amount that I'm concerned about is if they are lying intentionally to grow the one percent Who think it could be a relationship Lying intentionally and saying I am going to meet you we can meet one day or the same good morning No, it's so sorry when I say lying intentionally I should say things like you're gonna be DMing me when oftentimes they were firing like Special writers who are coming to write for them called in India when they're giving them positive affirmations when they're saying things like I really love you. You're really special to me all of these types of things I understand that it's part of the fantasy and as long as the fantasy is made explicit That's fine. The issue is that if they lean as hard as possible to never have to be TR that's considering me I understand what you're saying. I the different types of behaviors listed are like all over the place And I can't figure out what we're talking about destiny Some of these things are like if a girl is saying like oh good morning your dick is amazing Like that's a lot different than a girl and only been saying like I love you That's an insane statement if somebody say something like that I'd be like that's probably over the line Telling people love them for sure But you're throwing all of this in the same bag and I don't even know what we're talking about because that Is that for instance you say something like oh, they make you feel special bartender because it's different levels of waitresses Make you feel special like yeah making somebody feel special You want them to feel special with their customer. Of course That's the whole point of anything you go to anywhere that has any type of service I don't know if I would call it exploitative and that's why again, and I feel like again I I try not to like push okay Can we start with some basics then what you're well the only thing that really matters because everything else is so hypothetical It's like what are the percentage of guys that actually think they're pushing towards a real relationship again My concern isn't the percentage of guys who think they're pushing my concern is women intentionally trying to grow that percent That's my specific concern is doing behaviors who try to increase the amount of their original fans who long-term think I might get a Relationship and my suspicion is that the woman who I don't want to TOS this I don't want to have If you rate dicks and tell them it's beautiful now, you're struck. That's not what I'm saying I'm not trying to be like hyper autistic about this. There are some things I want struck I want to make sure that there are disclaimers on only fan page. There's no reason not to there's no harm in adding it And all it is does is add an extra layer of like explicit protection for like the 1% dumb asses And the exact same perception so again every single restaurant every single bar every single strip club I do not think that I do not think that these things are analogous at all people going into a restaurant aren't going and being like God I'm excited to date this waitress. They're going in for food. Okay. Hold on. Wait. Wait. Wait. Hold up Not only are you wrong? Okay The threat is arguably higher because one of the most important things you learn when you work in restaurants is for instance Everybody this employee restaurant has had a conversation where managers say hey if somebody calls in and they ask about when a female employee gets off And they say that they're out of their brother You always hang up where you tell a manager because these are guys that come in they find girls They get obsessed and they try to track them down fall I've known at least three girls in the like two years I mean, you know they got tracked down in parking lots by men getting obsessed with them in In real life like trying to follow them home and shit So I don't know why we wouldn't have these exact same disclaimers in any other place Do you think that restaurant do you think that restaurant settings are analogous to only fans in the type of content that they're expecting the type of Things that they're purchasing and like the entire emotional intimacy that is within that dynamic between the purchaser and the Probably worse because they probably see the restaurant interaction is more authentic. Yeah Way far What percentage of your only fan subscribers do you think I don't know you keep asking me for these percentages Okay, you really just been asking for percentages nonstop like can I ask for one percentage at least so what percentage of your only fan subscribers? Do you think believe they're in a quasi relationship with you? I don't know I know just give me your gut feeling. I'm not gonna hold you specific number think they're in relationships quasi relationship a lot of them are I'm not their only model that they're subscribed to so I would say I would say zero I would say I don't I doubt there's more than one person who subscribed my only fancy wasn't subscribed to another model So there's a me. They probably think they're quasi relationships with all these models. You can be delusional Okay, then they're not some delusional guy. I was just planning for like a monogamous wholesome relationship with me Part of a part of a liberal like society is that there are dumbasses and we still try to protect them Like it is fine to say you're right. Some of these people are dumb luck fair enough I agree the question I have for you and maybe I'm uninformed Could you tell me like what are the steps that you implement on your platform to make sure that there's a defining of the Relationship that if you feel like the boundaries are getting cross where you're like I think this guy's getting like Actually serious about me that you like draw down the line and be like just so you know like I'm so you know And in the nicest way possible this isn't real though for me Is there anything that ever happens to kind of draw that for a mind to be like just you know You can keep giving me money. I'm happy to keep sending this to you But what do you do to kind of like ensure that your customers are fully aware of what your role is? Nothing Nothing really If someone were to ask me hey, I'm in I'm just gonna ask you yeah I'm just asking you if someone were to ask me. Hey, I'm in Miami this weekend Can we meet up I wouldn't be like ooh maybe like another day this week Right, I wouldn't say that what you would probably be like just you know, I don't meet up with fans. I would just say no Okay, but would you tell all the people are paying you money that hey, I don't meet up with fans Would you feel comfortable making that post that I don't meet up with fans? Yeah, I don't know if it's true I've met up with guys off of Instagram who DM me who don't know about only fans So now I wouldn't make a blanket statement. What if someone really cool follows me? Then they're not gonna be on only fans bar no one uses only he said he's on only fans Well, I guess it was a point to be honest Oh, yeah, your entire argument has been defeated because like look at how many people are mad at like st Peach and like her fucking the random like Asian guy that I was like, oh, why is he with a spiky girl? There are people that do you know these platforms? That's fine But there are people that do meet on these fucking platforms as weird as it is or when it happens or whatever it does Going back to your other question though, like you're delusion. No, wait. Hold on. You guys are not meeting girls Okay, hold on your entire Informing of this comes very heavily from an incredibly skewed audience of people that are ultra-prime to hate only fans more than anything And a lot of your answers to these questions are gauges. I literally just like I can't fathom that now Earlier you said earlier said you said this you said my audience is your audience. That's fine. My eyes is delusional, too So then why do you have a better basis for an argument of both our audience because the way that you respond to me It's questions So for instance, you said do you think you've got a higher chance of getting with the girl at the restaurant or a girl who's selling? It's only the answer that's not a question. I even asked I Almost positive that I heard you she said it erudite asked she answered that it was probably the restaurant And then you laughed in response to playing that her answer was ridiculous. Do you call that series of events? I'm asking her a totally different question She asked a question of who you're more likely to feel attracted to somebody like a restaurant or only fence place She answered probably the person in the in the restaurant because an only fence is clear what you're selling And then you laughed at her response like it was a ridiculous response Do you remember the sequence? Okay, so my laugh is kind of an indication of what an argument that you think that it's more likely that a guy's gonna Then a restaurant girl These guys are meet up with girls from only fans they have a realistic chance of zero fire will never ever meet up with The idea that zero percent of the guys Idea that zero percent of the guys that are following her and only fans actually be there in a quasi-relationship with her is absurd That is pure other BS They have a higher chance being in a like one-on-one relationship with the waitress because that's why I pointed out the fact that the subscribers are subscribed to multiple models again What part do you disagree? Do you think that there are guys that go to restaurants? I think that the waitresses actually like them. Yeah, I think there's a small percentage of guys who do that But I think the kind of guys that go to restaurants. That's your everyday person There's a kind of people driving towards only fans of their select type of that's not true It's simply loserry type of you don't have any evidence for that whatsoever though Lawyers there's so many like successful men on doctors Okay, I brought a study about the demographics of only fans users. Okay, so there we go. We can stop talking about this Okay, I agree that it is gen pop that eggs says everyone uses porn It's gonna be gen pop that accesses only fans the issue is what is only fans offer that's unique to porn That's you all of these industries and I would say it is the intimacy of the dynamic between the two people It's not just sex it's intimacy and sex and I don't even think that that's a problem I don't hate only fans. I think it's completely fine to sell intimacy I think the fact that married men are using it at such a high amount suggests to me that it's possibly Somewhat of a filth or agency they want validation and that's again fine The only issue that I'm outlining is if people are leaning Intentionally into blurring the lines of to whether or not this is a fantasy or not These are the people that are being exploitative and I'm concerned about a platform that has no oversight That would allow these content creators to exist and I don't feel like there's an honest conversation about that I think we're just perceiving. Oh if customers completely differently Like you're making it seem like these guys are shelling out money and kind of hopes that they'll eventually be in some IRL relationship with the women. I see it completely No, I assume most people who use it are normal people normal people are like god She's fucking hot they get her on tiktok or instagram Okay, well you can disagree there they go on her instagram They see you're in a cute bunny outfit and they're like whatever kitties look like Always sexual girls or the jerk off to porn normal guys don't pay for girl only fans. That's not a normal guy That's a very special a decade before the advent of only fans 16 percent of american men were paying for iRL sex They were paying for prostitute. That's 16. That's also a very special type of guy 60 percent of men were paying for sex 16 or 60 16 Okay, yeah, I can believe 16 And a lot of them would seek them out also for the intimacy Should the prostitute be saying at the like start of every session by the way, we're not actually dating No, because it's understood because the man has a lot in actual relationship. It's a fair exchange. He wants like a flat end relationship I'm giving you money 300 dollars. You're having sex with me. It's a fair exchange versus with only fans It's unfair exchange because they're not getting actual sex because these guys are getting something They think they're getting something but they're not getting that why are they not getting something Because you're not gonna date them. You're not gonna meet up with them The prostitute isn't dating them. You're saying sex is okay, but the photos aren't that's exploitative because i'm not giving them like It has nothing to do with that has to do with uh expectations. You said you said the prostitute's giving them something Yeah, she's giving him sex and they you're complaining sex with romantic relationship You just said before romantic relationship. No one goes to prostitute for love. Those guys are paying for sex and they're getting sex You're so wrong. They're paying for my content and they're getting content. Okay, can I They're paying for more than that. Why would they pay for content if they could just watch porn online for free With 20 million girls a lot of guys don't go to actual prostitutes for just the sex they go for the intimacy as well They go for the girls but they're not getting their intimacy. They're not getting emotional support. It's like a one-sided therapist Can I just be real and ask you a different a slightly different question. I'm giving emotional support Okay, do you think I'm curious because again, maybe I don't know Do you think that there are are women in a space that absolutely avoid some sort of defining the relationship or defining Boundary type of conversation with the people paying them in hopes of making sure that their relationship is Blurredy as possible for as long as possible in hopes that they'll get more money from it Do you think that that behavior occurs some of I'm sure it exists whether I would qualify that as exploitative Is it sure? Yeah, I'm not asking you to agree with exploitation. So that does exist Would you agree that there are also girls who probably do things like Lean really hard into the girlfriend experience without ever even labeling it gfe with the guy who's interacting with them Now some girls label I offer gfe, right girlfriend experience and some girls Probably don't but act like a girlfriend in every way without Sending like the good morning and good night. Good morning. Good night. Yeah, you're so special Do you think like putting the caveat by the way? This is a girlfriend experience somehow disillusioned the men in a way That's yes. Yes If they if they are defined the resolution of being like, hey, just so you know I'm offering girlfriend experience. That's the type of porn that I do I think it immediately dispels a huge bunch of my concern Okay, so for instance on my only fans I offer something called like 20 minute dates So it's clear that's not a real date because you're paying for it And then I'll like talk to you for 20 minutes So are you saying that like me labeling it as that versus just entering the date with them is non-explicit? Like it's just the label. It's not a it's a Therapy session or hangout session. It's not date a date implies. There's romantic interest or potential romantic interest So I should label it 20 minute fake date in which I guess Okay, yeah, I think I think I would actually sell. I think the dummy mommy vibes If I'm being honest, there's a lot of guys So even though they know the parameters of the 20 minute interaction, I'm still exploiting them by labeling it a 20 minute date I don't I don't know. It's not a real date though. I'm not okay. Hold on I'm not I'm not concerned about branding if the 20 minute date first of all is you right I thought you were concerned about branding because you were saying labeling as gfd is what makes it non-explicit It's not about branding branding is about aesthetic. I am concerned about explicit boundary, right? So things like rules of my channel. So I'm sure lots of girls are rules of my channel What you kind of spend them? I'd love for there somewhere to be in there being like just so you know as well I'm never going to date you you need to come in with that assumption And like if they notice men pushing that line Rather than leaning into it and keeping it as blurry as possible for as long as possible I mean like he I know he's in love with me But like I'm just gonna like keep this going at some point having a conversation Be like just so you know this isn't explicit because in that only fans read it thread, which I found multiple There's multiple girls saying I know all these men are in love with me and there was a couple girls saying that's really not good I always tell these men that this isn't real and they got downvoted like crazy And so that's concerning to me about the culture and nature of only fans giving each other at least on this subreddit Advice about how to engage that they're downvoting the one person to be like Let's just be explicit about the nature of our relationship That's concerning and that suggests to me that in only fans There is this culture of going let's lean into blurry relationships as much as possible and there is one reason that you And that's concerning Can we just call what it is? It's a how we can take the most amount of money from random sims on the internet That is what I don't see you. I don't see it. Of course, and I respond to that Because you're speaking to me and I'm responding to her by the way. Just that way you just said no Yes, it is. Of course it is. What do you mean? How are you doing that? Why you're trying to maximize your engagement your audience made them pay you as much money as possible You're providing them entertainment. They know exactly what they're getting. They know what they're getting This is the issue that everybody And I don't know if you just I don't know if you engage with sex or porn or whatever in a different way But like this is the issue that we're going to do You keep saying that the only way that you can pay for only fan stuff is to get scammed because you're not getting What you actually want But you can't seem you can't even seem to fathom the idea that maybe they're getting exactly what they want Maybe they want to chat with somebody that they don't know That is not my position Disclaimers Yeah, yeah, so basically what comes down to is yes, they're think they're getting something but they're not actually getting that Like okay. Here's here's a simple. They're literally let's say let's say I meet a girl Right and I lead her on to think that I want to date her like let's just say I'm I never explicitly say that I'm kind of a lovey-dovey. I'm like, oh my god. Yeah, you know, I see blah blah blah But I never say explicitly implicit just so I can bang her then I bang her was I exploitative towards her if I had no Actual desire to have a relationship. Yes. Yes. Okay. Good. So It's just not analogous. Wait, wait, wait. Hold on. Let's say that let's say that you did that exact same thing Okay, that exact same behavior you took her to dinner You told her a bunch of romantic things and then you fucked her and then you ghosted her, right? You think that's exploitation, right? If I let her on to think that's gonna be a relationship. Yeah Okay, let's say that she found your number from a website that says www.fuckboysitwilltakeadventureandleaveyou.com. Would it be exploitation then? No, because then she knows what she's getting. Okay You're on only fans. The girl's page is public What like what else do you need these guys think they're getting a they're they think they're in a quasi relationship with the girl And some people think that when they say they can fly I mean, I don't know what the point of statement is. There might be some guys. No, but there's not one percent It's like a solid 40 50 percent. Okay. That's I understand what you're saying That's a fact of the matter that needs to be established because your whole argument hinges on that Do you think 40 to 50 of guys that subscribe to only fans think they're actually gonna date one of those girls They they have to lose themselves thinking they're in a quasi relationship with the girl Why else would they give her so much money because you because it's you because the point is unique Because the experience is exclusive or unique Um, there's so much porn on the internet. You can literally watch a new video every hour and you'll still never run out No, no, there's no monopoly on sexual voyeurism. That's the whole point Okay, yeah, sorry Good. No. Yeah, that was it I can tell a little frustrating so good also you keep using this argument that like there's porn on the internet That doesn't make sense. There's other stuff that you could pay for but that's like saying like Why would you play this video game when uh x y z video game is the whole point? I'm making is because the guys who just want to like jerk off to some video They will watch porn the guys that go to only fans. The reason only fans is taking off so much. Why don't they go on tinder? The some of them do why don't they go on seeking arrangements that they actually want a relationship They can get a sugar baby if they're re-shelling out. That's not a real relationship either But yeah, so they can go but they're getting slang out of it by your definition They're going on only fans for that specific model who they see on their explore page and they want to see her I'm just proving destiny's point the whole idea to go in there's just to get content, right? Sure I will acknowledge that there's a small percentage of men maybe 30 maybe 40 percent who know exactly what's up It's like hey listen this girl will never gave me. I'm not an actual relationship with her I'm just basically wasting my time doing this and I'm okay with that because I hate my life That's fine. But that's not a lot of the men on there a lot of these men's on there have to lose themselves to the thinking Hey, this girl far really likes me like I think I have a chance with her. Let me just keep paying her more money Let me do one of these dates with her This whole line of argumentation fails without you being able to substantiate that How do you want me substantiated literally any number any study I can give you I can give you the anecdote after anecdote of people I'm great. So back to your point. I don't think you have I don't think there's an expectation on the only fans girl to outline that like this is I'm never gonna date you Or anything like that because like I said, I think a big You know attraction for sex work is that you're giving that fantasy and I don't think that's exploitative I'm not a way. Do you think like, you know, if a john goes to a strip club that the stripper should be You know, morally obligated to tell him by the way I'm not actually interested in you The issue is that strip clubs have so much implied disclaimer because all of this is about disclaimer implied disclaimer Absolutely, if you're going to a strip strip club, there's a six four security guy with a no touch policy, right? There's like there's so many levels of why this isn't going to become a relationship and to be honest There's probably some element within the strip club where they also lean into the blurry relationship That does concern me to some degree Can I ask you a question about like one of these posts that I hold up? So this girl says I had a guy fall in love with me where he gave me a lot of his money To me on his birthday recorded a video of himself idolizing me He idolized this fake lifestyle that I was this fake lifestyle that I was portraying on only fans on instagram Which turn it was in turn motivated him to change his life But behind all this it's sad to say you just go along with it without giving it a thought as long as you Ain't got your real identity somehow linked to your only fans ID I would just go along with his obsession part of the work, I guess But do what makes you feel comfortable and this was just this was literally like a very recent I'm not I didn't dig for that one by any means. It's just one. What's your name in the subreddit? Where's this coming from? Only fans advice R slash only fans advice Do I think she's necessarily someone who is a good person in the sense that she cares about her customers? Probably not. Do I think that guy is being exploited now? Wait far. What can I find the server you mentioned? I was just quickly trying to find something along lines of that And I didn't see it. Where's that study the study that you mentioned Which one it was uh litman like 2023 Litman lyster 2023 journal of sexuality and culture. That's where it talks about the Benefits of going on only fans where improves your relationship with your partner both partners are on board It improves your sex life. It opens up the biggest horseshit ever So, okay, if we want to go into the data, I've read through that study I've read through those studies. So the issue is that it's again It's complicated. So only fans tends to improve your life when you're more liberal when you're more open to sex And when you have like a healthy relationship with sex we tend to see like a positive benefit But if you go into like more conservative areas because there's another study by like ac And somebody I can't remember the other last name from like 2018 that found like almost the exact reverse opposite When you look at the two studies, they're sample populations I think one of them is like in alabama and the other one's in california So a lot of a lot part of like is only fans of net good I would just say the fact that it makes women so safe in their sex work is just a net good That's enough for me to be like of course only fans of course It just in every way makes sex workers safer. It's just better My question is when only fans workers are absolutely leaning into Blurring relationships. It is exploitative. They are trying to take advantage of these men They know that they are and I at least want people to be like, yeah You shouldn't do that that bad and I would even love to see some level of to us established It'd be like if you're offering girlfriend experiences It needs to at least be posted on your page that you offer girlfriend experiences So you were saying the reason that the strip club doesn't seem to be exploitative in the same way even though They're still blurring the lines because there's this implied boundary of the fact that there is a Not a pimp but like a security guard there I would say just the fact that it's through a computer screen offers like an actually implied boundary I I don't know about that because again long-based in relationships Um, are the strippers getting these guys numbers after work and like texting them every morning being like, hey Good morning, baby. I love seeing your cock through your pants and stuff like that Again, if strippers are doing that, I still have a problem with the behavior I would be consistent calling them But even just within the parameters of going to a strip club like you going for that dance They'll remember your name. They'll remember what you like They might ask you like how you're doing and stuff is that should they say between every sentence by the way? This isn't real. This is just that's not what I'm asking only fans workers to what I'm trying to say is If there are strippers there that are actively trying to blur the lines. They got that one guy They always get private dances with them. They give him her number He tries to pretend that she's in relationships. She starts talking like maybe someday possibly he could fuck her and date her I would have a same issue with that stripper as only fans models doing the same thing And my concern with only fans right now Is that looking through the red thread looking through different only fans pages to be honest when I first came here I was like pretty like I don't think it's exploitation Reading through the way that so many of these women are engaging in their platform It's clear that they're trying to lean into blurry relationships as maximally as possible To try to rake money not all of them There are some excellent women who are not doing that and not all women do girlfriend experience at all But the women who are in between that line They don't explicit that it's a girlfriend experience that are texting good morning things that are asking if they want to Like hang out and go on a date But also you have to pay for the day and like also you get this bundle But also like you know like maybe we can chat and like all my boyfriends There's only fans models on this right page talking about how they complain about their boyfriend to their patrons All of this stuff is blurring the lines necessarily and this is what I'm concerned Just to clarify also me and uh kyler looking for different things. She's talking about hey, well, let's put some safeguards in place I actually don't care about that I understand that even with safeguards the sims are still going to be getting basically taken advantage of all I would like or I guess it's it'll be interesting is that if you just own the reality of the matter It's like yeah, you know what these guys are losers They're sims So you're not looking at the reality because you're you're just saying that all the stats are horseshit So how am I not owning the reality if you're not even subscribed to reality? All right destiny Do you think that most men who subscribe to only fans are it's improving their relationship? Do you believe that? Uh the general the like to generalize the audience of only fans in my opinion is probably really hard It's probably a pretty big pretty diverse audience of people most people over 50 Do you think are improving their relationship by going like if they're in one or yeah, they're in the relation They're in a relationship. Do you think well here? Actually, we can ask one question. It's kind of brought the city with her Um, what are the percentage of people on only fans that are in relationships right now? Uh, I don't think the study she said 90% This was that was for married. Sorry. Are the users in a relationship? Yeah, the users are like you said for them Are in relationships. I think it was 92 for relationships in general. Yeah relationships in general Most users are in a relationship. Is it improving their relationships? My guess would probably tend towards no for over 50% But but improving their relationship. That's a common sense position. No, no, no, no, wait Your position was not your position was not is it improving your position is it's massively detracting from the lies of all these people You haven't substantially First of all, I never said the word massive and we're talking like we're having like three different conversation threads going Uh, so I'm trying to like weave these together. So what I'm pushing back against as far as saying that oh Well, there's a study that seems like it was done very credibly that shows that actually most guys who subscribe to only fans Are improving their relationships that she's pushing back So here's you've presented a narrative with no evidence The narrative that you put forth is that men are going on to only fans and they're substituting their drive to find Relationships in real life by going on to only fans and only fans is perpetuating That's the point that's the narrative that you put forth with no evidence And her reputation of that narrative was how can that narrative be true of 89 percent of people on only fans are married That one's number assuming it's true destroys your entire narrative. That's why she put forth a narrative It doesn't argue against the idea that like maybe only fans might be detrimental to the majority of people First of all, you know, I give me married. You can be extremely lonely Women experience more marital loneliness than men and yet there's a huge disparity between who's actually committing adultery in relationship So women put more like or condition or also wire to just place more emphasis on their dyadic relationships They're more likely to stay at home while their husband is like traveling for work So wives are like 100 percent across the board more lonely than their husband. So yes married men can be lonely But it's usually women who are lonely in relationship. How does that affect the argument at all? Uh, because then why wouldn't it be like 89 percent married women on only fans? Or even more Is the evidence that only men sub to only what is the Can I which questions we want me to so because women typically are way less redundant importance sites And women are way less likely to actually subscribe to dudes only fans They're going to meet their emotional needs and loneliness in other ways through friends Through hobbies through maybe cheating on a guy in real life, right? That's how women are typically going to meet their loneliness needs and then they're doing it differently again A lot of these married men cheap than women a lot of these sure. Okay. A lot of these guys are lonely So that's how so it's just the idea is it what it said Disanalogous because there's a different amount of men and women that subscribe to only fans and different amount of men and women They just watch born in general. I just completely disagree that loneliness is the main um driver. Yeah I think if I could suggest for why I can't go in on only fans. I think If you're truly lonely it's essential to essential. Hold on. You need this question. Okay This is the central point of argument. Okay What is your evidence that the men that are subscribing to only fans are lonely simple losers anecdotal Uh, yeah, I mean, I don't have any studies I haven't seen you really reference any studies. I just want that. I couldn't find I cited too. You didn't find What do you mean? Well, can you show them to me like pull them up in your phone? Okay, the studies you're listening sound like complete BS. Even destiny doesn't believe the study I do No, I don't think for most guys it's improving their relationship You asked her to go with his gun not a second. Okay. If I could just suggest if I could just suggest if I could just suggest No, I'm part of doesn't believe every everyone is speculating based on a paucity of litter literature There is no data on this. All we know is in this sample alone Which is one sample and I'll be super clear this study if anyone wants to look it up By litam in 2022 is a fucking fantastic study The statistics are great the size of like everything is awesome The issue is it didn't look into any of the drives as to why people are using only fans The issue is we're fighting over a massive unknown And so what we have to ask is why are going people going to be attracted to an only fans model porn site when they can get Free porn elsewhere. It's obviously not just sex. It's probably intimacy But we should test it and again, I'm saying that's fine. It's actually fine to sell intimacy I think it seems to be the case that it's a decently good service If it's like the difference between a guy killing himself because he's like so like feeling so invalidated and like demasculated in his relationship I'm again using an extreme example versus like talking to an only fans girl. That's fine There's no problem here. The question exclusively at least for me is How many of these women are leaning in on the blurriness of the relationship to rake more money from them If they are doing that and knowingly doing so, I do believe that that's exploitative because you are taking advantage of these Well, first of all, I think just the fact that a man is going to only fans instead of porn doesn't necessarily point to the fact That he's searching for that intimacy just because only fans offer the intimacy experience and porn doesn't I think it's also the Face so it's the fact that like porn stars. You've already seen them naked. It's the fact that maybe you've been following this There's this amount of Yes, this amount of amateur porn you could watch that doesn't relate to my point Doesn't relate to my point. Maybe you're already following an instagram model. It's a big girl like me a tick tocker It's a girl who you already follow on like instagram or youtube or twitch You want to see her naked you want to see amaranth is amaranth probably the most sexually proficient girl on only fans in pornhub No, are they going necessarily just for the intimacy? No, it's the curiosity of this is a girl who I've been following So absolutely That's why I said it's heterogeneous for sure right this 89 percent of married men And therefore like the other percentage The reasons people are using only fans is obviously complicated The reasons that women are using only fans as content creators is super nuanced and complicated And i'm not interested in like painting this broad broad should be like all women and only fans are exploited of poor bitches And all the men's are dirty fucking come come drunk simps who like can't think for themselves That's not the case the exclusive question is is there enough oversight for this platform? Is it actually being ethically managed and if it's not what do we do about that? Most important thing to think about for only fans. When did it explode in users and in purchasers? March 2020 exactly when the like loneliness So only fans actually does put some parameters in sanctions like there is a spending limit on how much so that does remove the Outliers of guys who maybe have a bit of a gambling addiction. So I think that's a big thing Yeah, I think only fans is mostly a good platform The question is anything the exploitation takes part on on the side of creators not at all in consumer Uh, wait, sorry, you think that the crater to being exploited if anything. Yeah Sorry, I'm saying it's more likely All the money are the ones that being spent they're not taking all the money the average crater makes a hundred dollars a month Yeah, but there's a lot of girls who are 17 and agencies are keeping an eye on them until they turn 18 If I can invite sex workers are actually making money Are you you said that only fans is a net positive for men if you have a kid When you when you want your son to go on only fans at pay for girls What I want him to yeah, is that something you would encourage what I want him to necessarily sit around jacking off to pornhub itself No, does that mean it's not really bad. Wait, but it's not a positive. It can help positive for society What about for your son? You said it's a net positive So is it going to help your son improve his relationships improve his relationship? Let's say your son is struggling to meet girls He's had a bad relationship Will you tell him to go on only fans because I can improve his relationship. I wouldn't necessarily tell him to go on pornhub I think there's a boundary between what you tell what you tell your son Okay I'll go to you steve because I know you've been waiting I just want to see because the conversation has been going so well I don't want to jump into q&a if there aren't many questions Yeah, so in other words, just by a rise of hands. Do you have questions or otherwise? Okay, not too many. Let's keep going We'll have q&a still I just want to make sure I don't jump into it too early. So we'll give more time Okay, so this is the issue, okay, I think that if we I'm sure repeat my question afterwards if you guys don't answer He's answering right now That's what my topic is But the nearest is I actually like answering questions because I have good answers for them Okay, so when the issue that I have that I think is very strange is that um, and I'm gonna make a couple of things here When people fixate on the only fans thing so hard It's hard to believe that there's an actual genuine concern here for the socialization of men or men getting into relationships When you have zero data for any of this Aside from a collection of stories that might approach you online So when you ask me when I rather have my son like subscribing an only fans girl or not or whatever If I was trying to improve my son's relationships or men in general Usually the first question that I would be asking isn't do you sub to only fans? Or do you jerk off to a lot of porn? It's usually do you play a lot of video games or do you smoke a lot of weed because these ideas of like Sitting in your fucking house smoking all day or playing fucking eight hours of video games a day That amount of dedication to fucking online stupid shit It's gonna hurt your ability to socialize with friends or with women romantically more than jerking off every now and through an only fans girl Okay, that was a lovely tangent. You did not answer my question at all. So I'll just ask it one more time Let's go with far and then you can answer destiny maybe for real this time So you said that only fans are net positive for men because they help improve their relationships according to the study You cited so then the follow question is this net positive and like an idealist utopian society No, as of where a society is right now. Yes, okay, so it is a positive. It helps the average guy prove his relationships The average guy. No, I said it improves the sexual lives of the average subscriber Okay, the average subscriber it improves their relationships. They're already subscribed that sample is already based off guys Who are already subscribed? I don't know if you take the average guy and tell him to go on only fans of that So the guys so The the fact only kicks in once they join Like I don't understand. So you're saying that's a different sample They didn't take they didn't It's like saying 90 percent of people benefit from chemotherapy if they have cancer Would you recommend the average citizen get chemotherapy? It doesn't make sense. They don't cancer, right? There's a different selection bias of the type of men going to only fans Wait, wait, wait, wait, I hope we're not comparing hold on. I hope we're not comparing only fans to chemotherapy because If your kid wants to jerk off the only fans I say, yeah, go for it That's not the question. Not the question. That was your question is since according to far only fans improves their relationships That was a never argument Because it improves the relationship that was three times. No, she said it's not good for men She says it makes them feel more confident and makes them feel it. Yeah, she listed like six things Your subscribers They're having their relationships improved Yes, of this study done with the sample of men who are already subscribed to only fans If your son, no, not by that logic, you better know if my Not by that logic. No, I don't think you know This relationship will improve. I think that was for you to not interject and tell I mean, I thought you guys I could just circle jerk and say yeah, sure, whatever Is my son already a married man, man, maybe his 60s who fits that demo of these only fans subscribers I think the average age is like 30. But yeah, my point is like is my son already having all the traits of this subscriber That's being sampled by this study. So no, that logic does not count Okay, so let's say your son does have all the traits of the person that would subscribe to only fans All the traits now I'm giving my husband marital advice like hey You and your wife are feeling sexually bored. Maybe you should watch porn because if you're both into it then it can help I don't think that's my place if I would tell my daughter to use sex toys But that would improve her sexuality But I just feel like maybe that'd be uncomfortable for a mother to tell her daughter Okay, once again not answer the question It was say your son has all the traits of someone that would subscribe to only fans Married at 30. Okay. Sure. All those things. Let's say he's having relationships with his wife Would you tell him to keep staying on only fans because it will improve his relationship? No, would I prescribe that? Absolutely not. So then you just disagree with your whole life? No, I don't. I'm saying that they're not being necessarily disaffected in their relationship Would that be like my blanket prescription? You said earlier it was positive. I don't know this study does AD test it over other options Well, I would probably recommend couple therapy first. The study doesn't say this is the best option for people with bad relations There's a there's a fallacy going on here that because this thing might have proved something It would be the first thing you suggest. It's probably the case That's not an analogy either. People that smoke cigarettes might perform better in school because I think nicotine sharpens your focus So if your child was having trouble in math, would you suggest he take up smoking if he's 15 years old? No Okay, fine. Let me rephrase the question then so that I can All the girls will think he's cool if he picks up smoking. Absolutely. Okay. Let's say your son is already subscribed to only fans He's married. He's having marital issues and he comes to you. Hey mom, father I know you were an only fans back in the day. Do you think I should keep paying for only fans? Well, do you think I'll help my relationship when you say yes or no? I think there's a plethora of other things that you could prescribe to someone who's Sorry, can I can I can I can I be so rude? Can I be so rude can I be so rude can I be so rude Can I be so rude and say can we stop this fucking line because it's so fucking retarded Can I guess can I just ask you guys like one question? Uh that I think is important for me to understand maybe from your side What lines do you think should exist between the only fans content creators and the people that they consume? Like what level of line should exist and how they separate the relationship I personally don't believe there needs to be any honesty I see this completely analogous to other types of sex work in which again, like I've said before you're engaging in a fantasy You're engaging in sexual escapism And I think like I said just the fact that you're engaging with someone through the internet is already enough of a wall There's no disclaimer So is it okay for only fans girls to lie to their customers and say hey, I'm gonna meet up with you? I don't think that's what she was asking well that would be a line That would be a scam if I say give me $20 and I'll meet up with you in person That's a little price involved So okay, so one of the lines though one of the lines would be fraud you would agree that you shouldn't defraud your clients Okay, right, but you can also lead guys on okay. Sorry go ahead. Thanks Uh, so beyond fraud is there other things for example if a woman is knowingly trying to blur the line between Fantasy and reality you think that there should be some level of at least social pressure amongst maybe even online content Creators like other girls and stuff to be like hey, that's not like the best thing to do to these men So you keep saying blurring between fantasy and reality about when you're painting this picture of reality You're saying good morning text good night. So that reality is being well listed a bunch of things I can go I know it's been super lost in all of the conversations. I don't think there's anything unethical with offering the gfb Yeah, I agree that there's nothing Okay, so that can I can I identify a big disagreement here or something that we're having an issue with okay Is what you refer to as blurring the line farha is referring to as the actual service being paid for that's the issue So like okay. Yeah, I won't even make an analogy, but that's the issue She's saying that men will go on for that blurring a girl to give me a nine out of ten dick rating I want the girl to say good morning to me, but I'm buying it And I know they're like I'm just paying for fucking the answer She's gonna send to me but that that fantasy that blowing line that's explicit like when I go to a strip club I want her to sit in my life and say hey daddy. You're the coolest guy blah blah blah I'm paying for that right like that's what you're paying for explicit I understand and I've already agreed that intimacy is fine to sell sure the issue well No, no, not intimacy the literal blurring of the line Your dick is amazing. I would love to fuck you like that's what they're paying for They don't want an accurate dick rating. That's the first thing they teach you So do you guys so a lot of them about their dicks great? What why to them about their dick size that seems to be uh, it's not lying. They're asking for you to hype them up They want like yeah, or they could be asking for humiliation. Yeah If someone pays me for a degradation video, am I going to say no, that's an Lying and putting you down. Okay What do you think an only fans content creator should do so she finds out that the guy's idolizing her Making idols to her and giving her more money than she knows that he can afford say he says I took out a second margin Do you think that it should be encouraged in the culture of only fan content creators to say? No, that's not okay pump the brakes Or do you think it like this person suggested and many people agreed with her which is ignore it Don't think about it if that's what they want to give that's their fucking problem Here's the other issue. Yeah, so in response to that. Yes The OF girls will lie and maybe leave them on the guys the subscribers lied to like There are a lot of guys I haven't even gotten to the my point So my point was that a guy who might say like I've taken out a second mortgage to pay for this He also might be lying are there guys who maybe have bad spending habits on only fans? Sure But I don't know how you take that off that mortgage because like I said only fans has a spending limit In which I think it's like maybe like 200 per message or something like that at this point And then like per day they cap it. That's such a weasley cop out How is it a weasley cop out? I'm saying a lot of men will lie to you like I'm spending all my paychecks on you because they're trying to The issue the issue the issue the issue okay I'll actually get to this the the issue for me is that yes men might lie right? The issue is that none of the power or the dynamic that's going on here Really matters that much about the men lying and to be honest If he's willing to lie about that that might be red flag in and of itself About the level of intimacy that he's trying to engage with you that I'm assuming Is beyond the lines of what any of these girls want? I'm assuming most of these girls don't want these guys selling their houses to try to like Invest more into like having like this like fantasy relationship. That feels I'm asking if a sub were to tell me like hey, I'm spending all this money on you I'm like getting a second job just to pay for this. I wouldn't necessarily take that at face value Same way. I wouldn't take it at face value if a sub told me like you're the only girl I'm subscribed to you Hold on. Now stop that I let's let's I don't care. I don't care what you assume my question Can I ask a question relating to this? Okay, so because as a streamer I deal with the same issue a lot. Okay So my question would be how do you figure out what the responsive way to regulate this is so for instance Sometimes I'll run into people that donate Probably unhealthy about to me. Okay Some of those people end up being incredibly wealthy Personal friends who I make lifelong friendships with shout out to Dan Other people are literally fucking like related to I think it was either Katari or like UAE fucking Royalty. Yeah, they're rich. Other people end up looking kind of strange and weird And I don't know if you're gonna afford this and I find out actually they live with their parents They're family super wealthy and then other people do Email me back, you know, you're like, can I get a refund on this? Like I can't afford my rent I was having like a manic episode when I don't okay Until they've explicitly said that like I can't afford this. I've made a huge mistake. I fucked up How am I how would I even go about auditing or figuring out what the reality of that is? Would you give them the money back in that situation when people ask me for money back? It depends on what it's for if it's like somebody has donated a fuck ton of money or whatever and they're asking Rick Generally, I will because it's not worth it If somebody donated me five bucks to shit talk me and I skip their dono not only do I not give them money back I'll fight the job Analogy you outlawing where it's someone who had a manic episode Yeah, then I feel like I'll give them the money back. Yeah, for sure. However, but I'm just I'm not saying Hold on because I want because your thing because my question is how would I figure out Which people I should be careful of which I and I shouldn't and In the pursuit of figuring that out. Am I not building an even closer parasocial relationship? That's not what I'm asking. Sure. So then tell me how to figure that out. Go ahead. I'm not asking for you to figure it out What I'm trying to credit. Yeah, I'm not asking for only fans content creators to be like you got to send me your bills Man, I need to audit your finances to make sure that's not what I'm asking for at all And that would be an increase what I'm asking for is is the broad culture amongst only fans content creators to go Oh during that manner, I have so I'll definitely give you your money back Or is the culture to ghost them as long as possible to not have to do uh payback Especially assuming he paid some way. I don't know the payback system super well But I don't know what extent they would have control over that right That's my question is the culture of only fans content creators to go. Oh, this guy's manic I'm gonna keep yes manning his mania so he gives me more money If that's the culture and I'm extremely concerned that it is amongst a large number of these content creators That to me is exploitative. That's a problem I just don't know how we could gauge their mania because they're already like jacking off They're gonna be acting a little bit out of character. I just don't know like I thought this was the average guy. I thought this was these were normal people. We're not talking about the average guy right now I said horny the average guy gets horny. Right, but you literally said that you can't count them I said, I don't know how can you engage the mania of an o.f. subscriber because they're already acting different And they make well like a guy who's super horny and jacking off may already like check off some list of like Symptoms of mania as my point. Like how would I let's let's erin had a good line of okay, so like okay So I would say um the the culture should generally be encouraged to not take advantage of people like that I would agree with that. That's an easy bull to bite. Hold on. My question is does that culture exist? And I am extremely unconvinced that it does because I was on your guy's side before coming to this I was like, fuck. I don't want to tell you to stop your post on the subreddit I understand no not until I saw a couple of posts on the subreddit And so I started looking through closely at a number of subreddits at a number of posts looking at only fans pages themselves And collecting this information going there doesn't seem to be this culture reddit only fan only fans advice is a very large channel The very large group and it's weird to me again Maybe it's just the terminally online reddit using only fans girls that are particularly anti social That's possible But I'm dubious of that and that's my concern my concern isn't to start litigating now It's to say we have to be I understand But my question is is that culture born out of the fact that you just can't really verify So you might as well like push for as much money as possible Is that ethical? Isn't that what we do in every single part of entertainment when we sell merchandise when we sell subscriptions When we sell time to chat with somebody when we sell any other number of memberships I'm probably the worst person to ask because I'm terrible at making money because I definitely don't engage in that Okay, but I'm probably not the normative Any other part of the entertainment world where request is made by the person selling the thing to try to determine The financial stability of the person that they're selling something. That's not what I'm asking I'm saying in the street in the streamer world Okay, I like coffee for a lot of questions. She looks like she's on the road Do you think that it's a bunch of streamers found out that I uh Was pretty suspicious about the like mental well-being of somebody this person that I had been in my chat for a long time Started doing like 500 just dropping it dropping it dropping it and they started posting like let's be honest really deranged things attached You know, I wasn't gonna say names, uh If people found out that not only was I Not willing to not engage but I started DMing with that person I started being like, oh man, all that money means so much me. I really appreciate it You're such a good friend to me. Do you think that other people in our community would be like, oh good business erudite Or people be like, you're a fucking bitch. That's not okay in our streamer world I think that that would probably be not okay But that's because you're doing something that is like considered exceptional as a streamer for only fans that is the service being paid for Exactly So my concern about only fans is you have an incentivization and an institutional structure that doesn't protect the consumer at all And does absolutely create systems where incentivized Anti-social women can maximally exploit people. That's my concern. There isn't an oversight There is no way to gauge this and that means that it's while it's a really good platform There has to be ways that you can correct some of these issues Yeah, I guess I just I don't understand like what those corrective measures. I already said explicit about gfe experience If you're gonna be texting good morning, I don't think you agree with that. Alex said something I think accidentally if this if let's say that you had a girl who was engaging these behaviors are considered irresponsible Are you telling me that if she had the explicit disclaimer on the top that you'd be okay with all those behaviors? Me and kyla arguing from I don't know why you mentioned my name. You said alex. Yeah, I know but like I'm just Why don't you say behaviors? Do you mean let's say okay, which behaviors no any of the ones that you said were bad Let's say the saying like I love you. Maybe we can meet sometime if at the very top They listed that this is just a fantasy all of a sudden you'd be okay with all of the behaviors prior that you weren't Okay with I'm by no means saying that but I am saying that that I would be way more okay with that I think that that would be great direction. Absolutely. I stand all the girls that put disclaimers in there. That's great Okay, and you think that a disclaimer is going to meaningfully change the way that a guy engages with a website That's explicitly for buying sex services from women. Yes I think it'll mean anything to change the way that many of these men engage Especially the men that are at highest risk. Yes, I do I completely disagree with that So pressure for fire. Okay, so I asked destiny this question I want to post the same one to you So let's find out in this in this analogy Don't say like oh, how can I verify just assuming the guy's telling the truth you get an email from a guy He's like your number one only fan, dude. He's giving you tens of thousands of dollars. He's like, hey bar I'm actually about to lose my house. I spent all my money on you. I was having a crazy manic episode I just really need to jerk off to your shit. Now, you know, I'm trying to get my life to get the bomb broke Would you give him this money back? No, of course you already got the content. You're basically saying that you're basically saying that the content is inherently a skim If I sell someone a car I will give you props for acknowledging that you don't give a shit I'm sorry if I sell someone a car while they're in a manic episode and I've already lost the car and they I don't get it back What did you lose? Am I exploiting them? This is the issue here is that you don't think I'm providing a real service The same video that you sent to every other guy No, what if I did a two-hour date experience? What if I did a custom? Now they get to just see me naked for free because they were in a manic episode. I already provided the service Fine, let's assume it's something that you sent to everybody If I sell the same car to everybody, I still gave them a car No, because a car is a sunk value. So the dealership was like $60,000 So just because more people have seen my tits suddenly it's worth nothing and then I can give it back by He can get his money back, he can get to see my tits for free because he was in a manic There's no inherent value to it You're not losing money by sharing a video that you showed with one people with another person I've appraised the value of that piece of content if I give it to them and they already have seen it and jerked off to it No, they don't get their money back Can I ask that one final question? They bought the content before we wrap up I'm just curious to guys know do you guys think that the culture of only fans would lean more towards allowing these blurry lines and Not just allowing them because it's part of the fantasy That leaning into them as much as possible Especially deceitfully to gain money do you think the culture is more shifted that way? Or do you think culture is more shifted way of like women trying to be like I just want to be providing these good services Obviously, I can't audit everything But my intentions are good and I want to make sure like people are just broadly benefiting Which way do you think the culture leans of like broadly the way that these content creators engage? I don't know if that's even an accurate binary to scale it on like I just think like I said at the fantasy experience I would consider analogous through strip clubs. They're like seeking out a prosecute in Nevada I think again, you're already seeking out that blurred line in which like a cyborg experience and what you want instant responses And we're all these things and like I said, same way you wouldn't put that disclaimer You know an only fans model is expected to respond quickly They're expected to kind of like do all these things that give that a stapest experience So do you think a culture that requires disclaimers for these types of things But also be more likely to cultivate content creators who put like breaks on relationships that they think are like Probably becoming detrimental to some degree obviously they have to gauge it and there's no perfect system I'm asking for one. Which do you think is going to create a culture that's more respectful of the consumer one with a disclaimer or one without? I guess I just don't see the goal of sex work as necessarily to be respectful It's just to get as much money from the sims as possible. You want to take the money from the sims? It's a repetitive job not a charity To answer everybody's question for the first one I I genuinely don't know the answer the first question said but where does the culture lean towards? I understand that you online have seen some really extreme things Obviously because I talked to people and I wasn't looking for them Obviously because I'm more to the left or whatever it's possible that like because the people I talked to are different I've talked to a number of only fan creators I think some that we're mutual friends with they'd say that they actually do explicitly try to push against like the super obsessed fans But that's because when they become obsessed it turns into a nightmare because yes And just to be clear those women are ethical based love them. I've no Well, I don't even know they're ethical, but I'm saying that there are being more ethical than there are There are there are let me finish this okay There are a group of people that that a lot of only fans creators that do these types of works that are actually pretty careful about those But not because they don't even want to exploit the customer because it's a danger to themselves if they engage in that sort of like hardcore behavior I agree. I don't know what where the culture lens I could see it totally going one way or another is a bunch of greedy horrible people Why is it like people that are careful just sure and so my argument would be why would you not have a disclaim? It would just create more protection All right We're gonna jump into our q&a now, so we're gonna say well we can have a pause now. That's fine You can give your virtual applause online if you're watching hit the like button We're gonna start aligning everybody so if you can line up going back towards the door there And just come up to just in front of this plug here, and then we'll ask our questions All right First question on you. Um great performance all four of you. Um, but just wondering when far friders are coming back Oh Soon. Yeah, thank you Thank you Uh Little bit of preamble I feel like you guys neglected one element of only fans, which is that it's a very new phenomenon, right? This emotional capacity getting brought into self work to sex work and being almost the center of it The fact that it's really new compared to these other uh industries you've talked about like Gambling alcohol cigarettes they've had the time to kind of like sit through the ringer We've developed and understood the things that are bad about it And now we've gone out of our way to like put the disclaimer on the cigarette Everyone understands that when you go to casino the house always wins, right? They're ingrained into our culture Isn't it okay with the fact with the way only fans is that we would try to preempt some of that and let people know What are going to be the obvious pitfalls and obvious problems rather than having to learn from the mistake I think I think that it's a flawed premise premise the idea that this is like a new thing Like men have not just bought sex But men have also been buying intimacy from women for a long time It's super common again that waitresses that bartenders like half regulars that come in that start to develop like really crazy emotional attachments It is the case that a lot of escorts when they're selling sex to guys They're also selling a lot of Intimacy it is the case that a lot of men visit the same strippers over and over and over again to develop closer relations with them Like, you know, should there do there need to be disclosures? I guess maybe that's we kind of sort of got into that But um the idea that this is like a new thing men buying intimacy. It's absolutely not a new thing I don't think So it appears that we can all at least agree that there's probably a problem with loneliness, especially Especially within relationships. One of the things that I think would actually help it Hope to improve this would be if we actually encourage more interpersonal relationships like friendships Encourage to be more sexual in the sense of like we can talk about it. We can discuss it So would you guys agree that you would support men sending dick pics the other men One to balance out the dick pic share of you know in society so that men are also receiving Unsolicited dick pics. Yes base rise of the hymbo. I'm very Strange All right, thank you for your question Men should do it people jugba like women will send pictures of like their boobs or certain bras or some shit like it's not Yeah, it's like not that I mean I I think I know you think wrestling's gay though. So like I don't want to get into this I think like I said no no no no, it's Alex. That's not exactly what I said I would basically say in a serious way to respond I think like male male like like homosocial intimacy is a massive problem And I genuinely like guys just don't even guys complain about how they never get compliments I never hear dudes compliment each other that much like it's just like you obviously it'd be nice if everyone compliment each other all the time Nice dick, bro Yeah, you say nice dick all the time. Well, they showed us their dick pics more. Maybe we could yeah, okay? Yeah Well, let's just get our compliments out james. You're awesome, buddy I want you to sexualize james though. That's the point. You got to sexualize them I wish there was a a measurement ready readily available for this but the amount of men Who think they might be able to pull their favorite content creator or potentially raise the waitress at hooters Is massively understated I think it's a valid issue to advocate for not one that I would personally advocate for but I support it This is so not true Every single group of friends or unless you guys have like these different groups of friends who every time you're with a friend There's always that one guy who's like, oh, dude. I think the waitress in me and every other guy there's like bro You're fucking retarded this girl I don't know where these huge groups of guys are all just like i'm going after this one Uh, you know, she's like 32 double g asian chick 20 other and the other guy said oh, bro You totally got a shot you could do like where all these guys that have this idea I'm sure they're out there. There are a few the differences that guy is not giving her money day after day spending all his energy She doesn't call him back and that's probably they're called tips I don't know if I trust I don't know if I trust guys to be open and honest with each other to like the full degree anyways I'm not saying that I think that's like this massive epidemic of men running around being like My favorite streamer is gonna day me. That's not what I'm saying But I I I think until we like have the numbers of why people are specifically using only fans Which I do think is new and I do think is unique not intimacy But the way that only fans delivers it in such a fast way Uh, I I think until we have the numbers we shouldn't conclude firmly that it is or isn't doing these uh, so um Given the fact that only fans is basically instant delivery of a fantasy experience How are content creators supposed to be able to distinguish between an interaction with the fan? That is not part of the fantasy so that they can actually key in on behaviors that are that are destructive Who I think the 1040s should be made available to content creators You just have their tax forms immediately and you can ascertain the healthy levels financial commitment Yeah, I mean a lot of it is like intuitive like I mean, yeah, there's not a strict metric you can use like Oh, he sent me 3.6 dick pics a day So that's like over the 3.5 ratio whatever But uh, yeah, I mean I think that you can a girls can tell when a guy's really lonely and really sympathy has nothing going on Sure, sometimes they lie. I agree far the guys lie But it does happen in the hypothetical like knowledge and far said no I wouldn't give them my money back right which is fine. I even admire the fact that she's willing to own the fact that Hey, I don't give a shit about these dudes or I care about their money. That's fine No, it's because I gave them the product that they consumed and that value is not worth zero I just I I don't want to I don't want to be I think it's I think it's problematic to assume that only fans content creators are like These interpersonally moronic women that can't grab the stuff. I'm not saying there's a perfect system I don't want to implement this autistic rule system and like well if he sends you three dick ratings now He's obsessed, but if it's only two then it's fine. That's not what I'm talking for But obviously there are zeitgeist and narrative that can be built within different platforms Different platforms have different ethics and cultures about how you engage in these things And the question for content creators on only fans is is the culture even looking for it? Because if they're not that's a fucking problem if they are based great Like there's so many cultures like this if you've ever been in touch with nanny services They have these massive facebook groups where they all like Clark can talk to each other and shit talk the people that they're working for But they also do these like nuanced advice giving pieces and the nanny group is a really good example of All of these people every time I like my friend like runs a nanny group So we talk about it all the time if you're wondering why i'm super involved in the nanny world um They the advice that they give is like super nuanced and interpersonal being like Yeah, I think that this might be a little bit of an overstep of bounds and the entire culture and energy In at least like a number of these platforms and spaces is how do you respect the clients? How do we protect the kids as much as possible? And how do we keep ourselves safe at the same time? And the problem is if that's not existing as a culture within only fans I am concerned that isn't good. I'm not saying that we need to have this holistic overthrow and get the sluts off the internet Obviously not. I think only fans is based and fine All right your question. Okay, so I guess my one question. I guess that alexon erudite But when you're saying it's a lot of lonely men who are kind of the ones who's young only fans There's been a lot of I guess like people who have a lot more money who would still go to only fans, right? Generally because it's more of a personalized experience to porn than what they would usually get But you're saying why would someone who isn't lonely go to only fans like that would be like the main reason It's more of like a personalized You know, they know they're not going to marry this person to date them. It's more of it's personalized to that individual, right? So I just want to understand your argument You mentioned that it's typically people who have more money and that's probably generally true But then are you saying that people who have more money can't are less likely to be lonely? Uh, no, I wouldn't say that but I'm sorry. Why why does their income matter? Well, I would think that it doesn't Because I guess how some people would say like if you have money you can get whoever you want Some people like a lot of these people aren't married, right? I think it's so maybe in the same aspect Maybe I'll ask you this It doesn't matter if they're lonely because if you offer a service that actually for the most part Like gets lonely guys through like dark times. That's fine. Obviously. I'm not saying like it's better than a therapist I'm not like putting it as like the first choice Whether or not there's lonely men on there the issue is we don't know we just we only know it's 89% in this one study We don't know the demographics. The issue is if it's there's an element of loneliness that's occurring And there's a culture that is willing to take advantage of that to as far as possible That's that's the concern at least that I have. I don't know about Alex. I think we have a gap We're arguing for two different things. Yeah All right, well, we're gonna move out of our q&a and we're going to go back to our poll before we close out the debate But now would be the time to give that good round of virtual applause and in-house applause for the speakers And of course, let's try not to forget our lovely james over here as well He deserves all the love as well. So uh, we're gonna get him up here actually and uh I was gonna keep track of the numbers on my phone if you want to pop up. Yeah Let's give us a second everybody. We're gonna close the poll But if you're watching online right now, you can hit the like share it out in spaces You like to have these conversations. Uh, we have our online poll as well. So if you see that in the description, check it out Okay, so if you happen to lean toward yes That only fans is or I should say only fans creators are engaging in economic exploitation A little bit or a lot could you slip your hand up? If you did think that it if you do think it is exploitation Awesome, and then if you think no, it's not exploitation. Could you slip your hands up? Like victory Like we had like six before that's pretty good. All right. Go ahead ryan Sorry for that You did So when we started it I gotta take your coffee right next time Five seconds while we close the poll All right, it's all good. So at the beginning of our conversation 66.666 of you six six six look at that Said that it is two thirds. That's right. I should say it that way right just to not upset anybody but So that was our percentage of people that voted that it's not exploitative So obviously we have a higher percentage that has voted that it is so let us Just calculate that out Yeah, I was going to say it's a lot more people voted the second time around. So this is going to be a Different it's not the best comparison. It's it's going to be over Don't undersell it. Sorry my stats brain is kicking in. Don't worry everybody. I'm just doing some math here These sample sizes aren't the same. Don't worry about The wrong math here. I need a multiplication sign, please So we actually based on the amount of people that voted in the poll the first time 8 and 16 versus 22 and 20 the second time around We actually see that the people that find that it is exploitative has dropped by 11 percent That's oh is exploitative. Sorry. I said at the backwards. I said it backwards. Yes, we went up by 11 percent So is it exploitative? We have leaned 11 percent in that direction Based on the ratio of the polls, but more people voted the second time around So you could take that for what it is, but we are going to close up. I think from you I think Kyla and alexa side move more people in their direction. Yes. Sorry about that. So we get destiny's channel now, right? Yeah, 11 percent more people voted that. And we're always as good. Yes You have to do it. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't want to be a hit and run. You're doing it. You got it I'll have my girlfriend take over Awesome. All right. Well, we'll close from here guys and we're going to be back here in a couple minutes If you want to head downstairs. There's an eating area there. There's another room on the other side of here We're talking about trying to take the partition down because it's a little hot in this room right now if you can't tell For the people that are watching online, but it is warm So if you want to take a break out there or downstairs behind the glass, that's fine And we're going to be back in what 10 minutes Cheers everybody We're all interrupting rat