 Cool Hello everybody if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly joining me as always Is is my own I guess Lord relic er in this case. It's Tom. What's up, buddy? Hello friends Sorry about the late start Partially my fault and then a little bit audio issues. Yeah, sure. There's a brief audio issue there at the end Yes, mostly Tom's. Yeah, but that's all right. Mostly my fault a little bit audio issue That's all right, we're gonna be talking Stormcast tonight and how we fix them So that's gonna be the main topic of topic du jour as it were right. I mean That's fine. Yeah, I think they are an eminently fixable army. Let me say that Okay, I've got lots of ideas here. I got I mean I have some ideas And it mostly involves releasing new stuff and dropping points, but you know, wow see that's it literally exactly Yeah, I'm so glad you said that Tom because I am going to take 100% the opposite point of view where I can't imagine it's like You hate me no, it's It's like every episode in fact apparently well you're wrong, but we'll get to that later. Okay, okay Well, we will explore that now only sure we will But the news first indeed Rumor engine sure it's up on there speaking of stormcast. This is a stormcast thing Apparently yeah, like how convenient for them to just throw us a softball Looks like a pre-steam stormcast thing. How about that? I'll go a step. Yeah Yeah, I mean could this be our our Covenant chamber Sure could be kind of like that had been my call I don't know if you remember that oh so long ago that the next one We'd see was the Covenant chamber and if this is a pre-staff. I mean, yeah Look, I mean it could be any chamber because they could release the ruin a or the ruination chamber and It could have staffs that look like this right or whatever Sure, but that's not what this is I looked up the original chamber list, right? Like the original the original thing they first published and it was like the Lord commander at the top and then the command echelon of like the Herald or temple the judicator temple and so on and you have the exemplar chambers harbinger chambers and warrior chambers and then on the sides You have the auxiliary chamber extremist chamber sacrosanct chamber and ruination chambers, right? This is the original one. They this got modified at some point So I'm sorry not real popular. Yeah, that's correct But like my point is they could just as easily it could be extremist or or or anything It could be just new could be just it can just be new. They don't like There's another secret chamber. This is the this is the storm the hidden storm vault chamber that even sigma forgot about a hundred percent That's true. Like when they did when they did Space Marines sort of originally and and sort of created the the chapters for space Marines, right? This didn't happen right away at the beginning necessarily this kind of evolved a little bit over time But they were very smart in what they eventually settled on Which was the idea that they're sort of these founding chapters and their successor chapters and there's lost chapters, right? And so it just meant that that basically people had they could add anything at any point time, right? both they and the viewer or sorry the players had a lot of chances to do Kind of whatever they wanted and yes, like I know extremists is already out there I'm saying like they could re-release more of a chapter is my point. It doesn't have to be a new one That's what I was trying to say, right, right, right, right. We think of it This could be sacrosanct to elective boogaloo, right exactly I'm saying like the extremist chamber wasn't huge in what we got out of that. No, it was like what two kits I Don't even remember how many kits was total, but it's relatively small break off. Yeah Dragon Okay, I feel like there was a third one, but I don't know like a hero, but at any rate doesn't matter Yeah, all of them were mounted like all of them were on drakos or dragons. Yeah, but my point is yes My point is is that it doesn't have to be a new chamber It could be but it could also just be an expansion It could also be as coaches pointed out a city's a sigmar underworld with a priest or a war cry war brand war bands Sure, I mean there, but it's very it's very sigmari. Let me say that I'm very and very stormcast It's very stormcasty and there's no way we're getting out of I mean, well, let me say this way. There's no way the original plan Okay, was to get out of 2020 without a stormcast release. Sure. Uh, I could go with that though what I'll say about this is is that this is Lackluster for the head of a storm cast staff I Guess you don't know what the rest of the model looks like like it's it could just be I'm just saying if you look at every other like staff head Uh-huh and banner head. It's nothing like this like because of how big the models are They have like big stuff and because this is small I'm gonna go as far as to say I think that that a human is wielding whatever this thing is not a full-on storm cast Okay. All right. I could see that it could also just be a unit item doesn't have to be a hero thing like what you're talking about is largely the the The items that would be bespoke on heroes a unit person could be wielding this right well We can talk about it, but I'm gonna call and say this is a human and in fact This is part of my solution to there I think they're gonna go down the track of what part of my proposal is for fixing storm gas That's fine. And yes, this could be the bottom side of a weapon as well as as I've been asked right it could just be the image inverted Yep. Yep. Yep In fact It would be well you can tell where the lights reflecting when they took the picture Yep, so the lights coming in from like this side right here, right because this is So like the point is is that if it was Upside down and pointed if it was if it was around that way You wouldn't have light on the side because GW doesn't light their stuff from below when they take pictures, right, right? So it's probably not an inverted staff. Yeah, so it seems like this is right way up is what I'm saying, right? The where the where the light is hitting the metal paint which is necessarily showing on this image. Yeah, right? It has been and that's not just some of that's paint That's still you can tell where the lights hitting it where it's not it's pointed that side up. Yeah, so anyway More stormcast It's like again unless what ends up happening with the current world situation is so disruptive that it literally pushes, you know Three or four releases into next year, which I mean, yeah, let's hope not we all have our fingers crossed That there's some kind of return to normalcy within a couple months The the reality is There we were absolutely getting some kind of stormcast release this year It's it is it's the they are the statue out front Right, that's what I'll constantly go to they are on the cover of the book. They are the statue out front They are the main faction of this game Yep, whether you like them or not none of that isn't that doesn't make any of what I just said untrue Yep, so there you go Okay, cool. What else we got? Oh, yeah, I got this written down We are battalions from the white wharf are not so good. No, they're not Thoughts on that. They're all volt Morton based and they're not very good But it's not that they're like utter utter trash, although, you know, I mean there in OBR. It's hard to be that Tellingly, they're all mortis praetorian aligned. Okay, because yeah, I mean, of course But they're fine like if you wanted to play mortis and and you had a Hitch to use volt Morton since he came volt mortian tea and however you pronounce his name. I don't know Because he came in the box You've got options now. I honestly like when they use the battalions in white dwarf to fill out stuff like this When they take sort of undervalued stuff and give cool options for people who have a hankering to play something unusual I eventually want to see an IDK battalion that uses low tan to some good effect Really like seriously, I I remember When they did that for fire slayers, they're just not legal Well, it's a shame that you got published that white dwarf came out two days before the general's handbook I don't know what to tell you Right, right, but you know, you know, they could fix that despite including it in another general's handbook Sure. Well, we all have hopes that the general's handbook 2020. I don't know what you're cracking, but it's super loud The we we all have hopes that the you know, they're gonna be a lot less pages in ghp 2020 because there's less allegiance abilities They've all been printed into books now almost Basically every page there that was an allegiance ability is now in a book Okay, yeah, and that was still a lot of pages even in the most recent one. It was so many pages So my answer is yes, please just start you can do these like three four battalions a page More sometimes they've started stacking six on a page in some of the books, right? Yeah, yeah So just do that make make that make that a thing take your 10 19 20 pages Whatever it boils down to and make them all the battalions So they all get captured up and then there's a single source of truth for them There's another reason to buy the ghp for everybody Everybody has an easy reference to you don't try to dig for old white dwarfs and stuff like that So make sense if you're not gonna put them online after three to six months in a free digital resource Which is how the the perfect ideal world by the buy, right? Then put them in here, please and thank you and that's easy I mean, I agree with that. That would be so fantastic. I Notice that the war cry like the 2019 home of champions has like all the cards that were basically released that year Like in the back. Oh, yeah And and so I realized like they could just do something rolling like that with the battalions from white dwarf the prior year or whatever So there's just a lot of opportunities there. Absolutely. So All right. What else we can yeah Preview show this Saturday Starts at 845 a.m. Eastern time. So early in the morning for us Afternoon for the UK. Yeah, there'll be a reaction show afterward. So we'll we'll do it here You know, it's I'm excited. I'm hoping we actually get to see a Model for the sons of behemoth this this Saturday I feel like in the original presentation We got to see the model like if all that had run through in order. We were seeing the models model models, whatever Do you think that we will see anymore elves? No, but I think they'll do one more on the 25th, and I think we will there you think the 25th So we'll see all the elves. Yeah, it's just it's been so long Sure. Well, it's gonna be a longer army in January. Sure Let's assume that they actually are able to to go back and have the Factory working at some point in time in roughly early May, right? Yeah, that would mean that you're still talking about probably the end of May at best case scenario That's that's your most positive outlook before things get out in stores, right? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, sure People better have a month of projects sure So, I mean your sort of best case is you're a month and probably a week to two away Five to six weeks away from from them actually being able to ship product out again. Yep That's just what it is, you know and and Fingers crossed. We'll see how it works. See how we'll see what happens Nope, I don't want anybody jeopardizing their health to you know to make little plastic toys That's the answer But I would very much love if they could if they could mitigate that in some way and and use the appropriate safety precautions And have everything working and I'm sure they would love it too. I'm sure they want to sell stuff Right, right. They would like profit. Yes, please And then finally we got a lower article for your Giants this week, which is pretty not spectacular Although I will say in the first image from that article the flying canals The flying like buttress boat canals is really fascinating. I have no idea what city that was for Well, they had my attention. Sure. I mean the art just kind of they they let people be pretty creative with that art, you know, sure Yeah, I thought the sons of I liked the article I thought it was neat I thought it was neat that there was a grandfather of Giants who got stomped and killed and then Bahamut came up and he then he went to sleep He he vomited up all the Giants and then went to sleep and then woke back up until the storm cast showed up and put him down Or whatever it when when cast tried to tank them and take over, you know that Godbeast Thought that was cool as a good good refresher for that because that stuff some of that stuff had been in books before But it was kind of like hard to find now in a lot of the stories It's not as clearly laid out. So it was nice to just kind of gather all that together and put it there Just the references to the kings and how they gather in tribes I you know, my ultimate hope is that Giants end up having Personality beyond drunken idiots, right? I don't want Sure Well, I'll say this even if they don't in the book. I don't care. I can add that They will once I get ahold of them. Sure. Sure So they'll be fine. It'll be fine Um That's the news Yeah, that's that's basically the news. Yes Not a lot. Obviously. These are some slow weeks, but I'm looking forward to the review show this weekend I'm sure we're gonna see some exciting stuff So there you go All right, cool. Let's talk about some pick of the week, man Yeah, so I For me I'm gonna go with friend of the show Meph in his rant cast Mr. Mephisto. Yes, Mr. Mephisto. He is going to be doing a content giveaway A generous donor has given like 1500 points of storm cast models like To him to give away and so he is having I'm like his next two shows I think it's rent cast 44 and 45 if you comment in the comments and mention the entry or if you Mention it in the streaming twitch chat when they're recording They are going to you'll be entered into like a drawing and it's and it's specifically for new players and So what it is is I? If you are not a new player, you can put your name in but it's on the honor system that you give it to a new player Somebody start a new army. Yeah to help somebody. Well to help and Well, it's specifically help a new player started and help a new player Right. It's not just like oh, I need I need my seventh army. Sure. No, no They're aiming at like people who are just getting started. They want to like help get them kick-started into the Into the hobby so Yeah, cool. So, yeah, he has that coming up. I wanted to let people know about it. Very nice We'll put the link down below to the show in question For mine, I want to throw out and again shout out somebody else in the community Who's also making awesome stuff in this in this trying time, which is our good buddy two plus tough Who put together a draft set of one player work right rules? So you can you can run campaigns and and basically, you know Solo play work right turn it into a single-player game that might sound strange to some people I imagine but actually like there's quite a few single-player games single-player miniatures games in the markets They've been becoming more popular over the past couple years a lot of like indie producer stuff There's several single-player or you know games out there They can be running single-player format where you're running against sort of the AI of the the game system itself or whatever AI and So this is this is another take on that so I will link that over to you so you can see where you can download that from I think Doug did an awesome job with that And I think that's a very cool thing when there's a lot of people who might be getting their their Warbands ready, but haven't really had a chance to play with them yet Because maybe they haven't had any be able to have any people over not everybody has a whole host of kids to play against I Mean my kids are keeping me busy on war cry. It's actually what I'm working on right now But but not everybody has that and so if you don't have children to do that for you. You can just play alone Nice nice Yeah, so there you go. Oh, yes, if you don't happen to have other people in your house who you can press gang into service Of playing against you If you're like myself Then this is an option for you. So there you go. I Don't that I my my wife obviously we did our wife show last week and that was a lot of fun But you know, I my wife is perfectly supportive of my hobby I don't know what in the world I would do to get her to want to sit down and play a game of work Right, that's the most comical thing ever. That's not gonna happen not not her cup of tea and that's fine I wouldn't I wouldn't want it to be she would enjoy it right All right, so Tom let's talk about some hobby time man What you're working on buddy you're working on some war cry is that what is what specifically? Yeah, all the work I'm back. So I've been building trees Like let me just say the newest war cry like terrain box that launched. I don't know if you've seen this fence But it's like my favorite one they've released so far it nice pretty war cry called the soul drain forest Okay, it comes with two tree box tree kits Yeah, like full tree grits and then like a sprue like the ruins sprue, right like the ground ruin sprue For the storm cast up. Yeah And it's like 90 bucks Like those tree kits for Sylvaneth are 50 bucks apiece Okay, it's like it's like an amazing deal Because you know like you're getting functionally like 135 dollars a product for $90 then if you can get a discount Even more by the way somebody asked about trees. These are just the new Sylvaneth wild wood kit Yeah, and you put like multiples of those rings together to make a right and then yeah, you do Yeah, you got you got to touch tips. Yeah, you touch the little tips. It's a lot of discussion when you're playing Sylvaneth now about touching tips It's true And and can you fit that in? and So I've been building those trees and they're a nice kit I've been building I I've been building a bunch of Storm fiends so on one hand I sold all of my scaven Or most of it and I also built storm fiends and magnetized all their weapons this week Did you put the dumb brain rats on the back? Of course not good. You made the right choice never put the brain rats on the back And what that was a trap you navigated it successfully you found and removed traps No, so it's funny like I not I like I was really like I was really mixed like Mixed on weapons for storm fiends and so I was like well I'll just maybe I can magnetize it and I started looking at I'm like this the easiest kit to magnetize in the world And so I did that yeah, cuz they all have like flat arms with like weapons that snap on yes Yep, and then Yeah, they have like the best magnet like magnetization spots So I've been working on my son's warband And I think his stuff is basically almost all base coated Like so from like nor it's like tabletop ready almost I need to do the bases on them, but they're basically done I'm putting together some scaven for that. I had a bunch of miscellaneous scaven It just dawned on me like how helpful The underworld's warbands are Okay for like army building She was like in the underworld's warband like you get like one of each of the different units at least like the different troop types In between that and some other scaven. I had like I had a perfect like setup for scaven with that in a box of storm fiends Um, and so I'm doing that for mine. Um, and then my daughter has some sylvaneth coming in So and I'm excited to help her get that put together. She's making good progress on painting I ordered a bunch of like I had all of the war cry card packs and I just got tired of them for storage So I got a bunch of boxes and I'm you know, like to store my cards in and so I'm like more Cleanly systematizing that and yeah, so we're like we're all in on war cry right now Because the kids are all in on it And so it's easy to do and since we're in lockdown they're quick fast games and yeah So you're gonna probably see uh, be doing a lot of war cry stuff in the near future Um, and there may be some hypothetical content that comes out of us. So we'll see we'll see yes indeed that that boy oh boy Yeah, I'm not making any commitments I said at the beginning of the year the new year's resolution was to produce some content this year And hey got eight months to go I saw eight months, but we'll see if this actually happens. Sure. I predict you'll put a video up on December 27th Well, I I mean I I reserved a new I made a new twitter account for the new content So it's official because I clearly have a new twitter account for it. Oh, yeah, that's yes as we all know That's the big investment right there. It is it's it's it's it's where the real money's at um, and so You're starting all over with followers. It's just the worst Um, but that said uh, and all all that will become known once I produce content I haven't produced content. So I'm not like I'm not actively promoting or stripping Sure Nice. All right fair enough Uh, there might be a show we do up in the future Coming up around war cry actually more specifically and and digging into some more of the guts of war cry and taking a look at it Now months on so I think that'll be real good You have tom will be real ready to dig into that and end its value I will spend so much time playing all of the war bands Yeah, that'll be great. You'll you'll you'll have a much different opinion. I suspect now, you know coming back to it, right? Yeah, that's good Right on for me. Obviously I finished up The last sort of seraphon stragglers that I had that I had for stuff I had outside of the that I didn't manage to get finished in the 24 hour challenge So, uh, now I my seraphon army's done. So that's good That makes I think I yeah, that's that was army 16. So that's pretty good And I think I ended up with the final count of about 27 or 800 points of stormcast I don't remember exactly somewhere between 27 and 28 or stormcast good night good night 27 and 28 hundred points of seraphon So that's cool Uh, and that army's now ready to go. I'll share it up some pictures this last weekend I loved your, um, joe exotic Uh, that's not how you say it. It's joe ex tautic joe exotic you're joe exotic writing the tiger harness for Uh-huh. Um, I it's a genius idea. It's you know striking when the iron's hot that's that's what it's a war here for Yeah, that's right in line by the way with all classic Uh, lizard man names because they all had goofy names, you know, like it's true They were just spelled funny But if you phonetically pronounced it if their name would be like teeny weeny or something like that or tick tock or whatever, you know so Uh, seraphon are supposed to have silly names that you That when you phonetically pronounce them, you didn't realize the joke. That's the idea that when you read them You're like, what does that even say because it's full of cues and use knives and extra h's And then you phonetically pronounce it and you get the joke, you know, like, ah with and relatedly, uh Uh, yeah, we'll talk about that later. No, let's just say just to talk about war cry Like I have lots of thoughts about that, but I love your paint scheme. Let me just say that sure about your tiger painting. Oh good Well, thank you. Uh, so finish that up. I wanted to turn on like after doing that kind of a project It was time to turn to something more Uh singular and so we're repainting, uh, sarah angel here. She's real big You can see there. So this is uh, this was a limited edition statue from Back in the 90s and I know that because on the bottom of it. It actually says this is number 998 of 5000 sarah angel Uh, our fritz from 1998 And uh, so there you go. This was given to me by emily Uh, you check out. I don't know her last name confounds me forever. Her wings are very big They're over here. You can see that's Uh, her wings that normally sit on her. So she's the classic sarah angel Uh, so I'm real excited about this. I had to do a bunch of work to fix her She was she didn't survive the past 22 years intact because she's made of like I don't know something porcelain. I'm not sure she's not made of like plastic bad Is the answer plaster is probably the answer. Yes Uh, and so I had to to do all that and I'm very excited about her sarah angel was always my my preeminently favorite Uh, magic card and so, you know, I've had a love of that card since I first started the game I remember the first sarah angel I got and then the next 30 I got of every addition ever going back to my alpha sarah angels and everything else. So Uh, Yeah I I I have a bunch of those again still. So that's fine. I have a ton of them now again I made sure to go back and get all those as well as every every angel from across the ages. So, um It became a very popular card type which for obvious reasons Uh, so that's just a thing for me. Obviously that has absolutely zero gaming Stuff at all. There's nothing gaming to that It is literally you're not playing competing with them. Uh, I don't know if she'll ever go to a competition I'm not thinking about that. Honestly. I just want to like I just want to paint her because it's fun And I I lavish the love owner. Yeah, exactly. Yep Uh, somebody asked where the twirly cane is from behind me. This is my this is a wizard staff It came from a renaissance fair in 1990 Seven Yes, that's somehow that sounds right. Uh, it's it's a year older than that. Uh than that sarah angel Uh, and for some reason I've kept it for years Years and years and years, but it's a very tall wizard staff. Yes Yep, I I've I've moved houses so many times. I've thrown everything I had away so many times And uh, like I remember moving in the dodge colt, which I'm sure you know, that is not a large car You remember the colt tom? I had a colt. Yeah, and uh, I had a 91. You had an 89 88. Yeah, and everything that was in it Everything that I owned had to fit into that car not a large car And somehow it was a hatchback though. It was a hatchback. Yes. And somehow that stick Stuck with me the whole time. I always kept it Uh, I saw the wheels fall off that thing You did were you in the car when the wheel fell off? No, I was behind you and When you were in the RV parking lot and it was it was a wheel on Christmas eve Yeah, it was a wheel one wheel fell off the car just one wheel. That's it. It was fine. It was fine. It's fine Yeah, big deal Yeah, well life's funny. Anyway, uh Look, she held together for a long time and then the wheel came off literally the wheel came off So literally literally the wheel. All right, that happened Uh, so let's talk about uh, let's talk about some stormcast, man Yeah, all right, so let's let's get this out of the way first Okay, let's set some let's set some principles here start some founding principles Since we're going to be fixing a thing as always we start with guiding principles Everybody when you whenever this is my problem whenever people try to fix things they immediately jump to the solution Okay, right. That's the last thing you do you start with A guiding principle. So here's so guiding principle number one I'll phrase this is a question. I think we'll both agree with or statement. I think we'll both agree with Stormcast need attention in the modern meta they have become non competitive in Too much of a degree like they have fallen outside the norm of what we would want where where we would want them to be in the fat middle Agreeable statement. Yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah, okay Uh Thing the seconds they like let me let me say it this way. They seem just a tad bit weak Like these are like 42 44 percent somewhere lower than that they fell below 40 on the most reason They fell out of even the wide fat middle Okay Uh So the option so that is a statement, right? So, okay, we both agree with that Statement the second what we would aim for them to be Is a compelling interesting and roughly competitive faction, right? We are not looking to make them overpowered or we're not going we don't want it We don't want to end up with like when they remade some space marine stuff in 40k recently You had challenges because they overpowered like iron hands and then somebody else I don't remember who else got this treatment, but basically they went through a couple rotations where They were kind of over the line, right? Right. So we want to avoid that are in our perfect world. They would be The middle of the pack. They would be 50% on the nose sort of in the metawin percentage Because they would be the thing around which we balance everything else Fair statement Yeah, okay, we lost your audio for your second, but you're back Yep, okay Uh statement the third Uh as far as guiding principles go The range is beyond huge and unwieldy And even though the right answer Would probably be to just jettison a bunch of kits and focus on like the the right answer here would be triage Right and just like start saying there's some of you We can't save and would be to toss those kits and say they're dead get rid of them and focus on having a few units We are not which which kits would you jettison? This is what i'm saying. We're not going to do that Okay, that might be like if you were to take the cold calculated like gaming only answer That's probably the right answer Okay, like you're saying the true balance it but like the answer that pursues true balance Yes, and that's not what we're after. Okay, right Because one a lot of people love different models in the range two It is the poster child of of this three. It's a relatively recent range jettisoning kits is nonsense in the in this time period They've because they've you know been in existence and played I mean, I don't know they could probably jettison some kits and the life would just move on it's they shouldn't be and for Uh, we can create value and interest for most of these things In the same way that if if city's a sigmar can do it and have relatively interesting things function across Multiple different, you know unit types then we can do it here too. Okay Agreed statement. So we're not gonna I agree with all that. Yeah, okay All right, so we don't cut anything Okay That's the short that's the short thing there So consequently you would say we don't add anything Like that's a corollary that I'm hearing kind of simmering underneath the the the middle Right, correct somebody and just to answer a comment here Somebody said they won't be 50 because they are the normie starter army And therefore we'll have a large percentage of bad players. Maybe maybe not I'm saying if we could ideally regress for all of that in the data They they should be the 50 army. What I'm saying is not a statement of I'm talking about Our goals not a lagging indicator, right? What you're you're trying to measure the real thing when you say that donald That's a lagging indicator. I'm saying what we're aiming at designing is saying What are the components of an army that would fall here? That's what we're going to try to shoot for Yep, okay. Yep. All right. It's a design principle. Not a metric All right as an aside. Have you ever bought the storm cast? Warrior chamber war cry warband This have I have yeah, yeah, I have it. Yes. I have all the warbands I I did a big magic card binder by the way. That was my solution for all you did binder. Yeah. No, I did boxes. Um You could play magic with this deck It's big. I know that's so big Yeah, yeah, yeah I have 30 card decks and it's not gonna fit. Sure. Sure. Well, you know what helps binders Yeah, thanks So, okay All right, so good. Okay So we've got all that. Yeah, we're down with all that. All right. Yeah Is there any other guiding principles that you think we should have on the table here? Uh, it should be user friendly I like that one. Yes. I think that's an excellent guiding principle. Thank you This is and will remain one of the starter entry ways into the game for the foreseeable future Right. It will be the flagship faction So, uh So hence we need to make it friendly to to new players, right? Yep Yep, like and so when I say that what I mean by that is like it should like rules and stuff like that should default to Obvious and and easy And so it should ideally it would be the type of army that is is quick to learn like difficult to master. Sure. Absolutely Yeah, exactly. It doesn't mean you can't have layers or complexity in interesting discoverable ways You can go for an athelio type build, right? Yep. Um, sure or a go or something like that, right? Uh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, and then so final guiding principle that I want to put on the table is we're not going to Fundamentally reconstitute the army into a new form That is to say like no part of what we should recommend should be fundamentally changing the character of the army like for example Okay, storm cast are all one wound now and we put them all on 32 mil bases and they all drop to like, you know blood So you're saying they should never design a like a book that would fire slayer them Yeah Like fire slayers went from one wound to two wounds. They went from a horde army to like to an elite I would call it reverse fire slayering, but yeah, sure Yeah, yes, they are a relatively elite army. That's the idea of the thing You know, they should stay in the relatively elite army status, right? They are not the most elite They are definitely not a horde. Okay. How do those sound for principles? You're you're your sound I don't know what you're doing. That's turning your sound on and off I'm turning it on and off because I'm crinkling and I'm making noises. I'm Well, then keep turning it on and off. Thank you. I yeah, like I'm trying to actually help you out And not be distracting to you and the viewers. Oh god go back to being muted. Okay Wonderful. It's so terrible. Yeah All right, I'm efficient Sure. Sure. That's what it is Okay So, uh, so with those guiding principles in mind, okay Yep Let's now set about to actually thinking through how we how we take this army and evolve its place Yep. All right. So let's start at a let's start again at a high level What's your what's your 40,000 foot view pitch For how you do you want to go first or would you like me to go first? Let's just give that the pitch not any individual solutions the pitch No, I'll let you go. Okay. Here's my pitch. All right Yep One let's assume we're going to get a new book this year. Yep. Okay, so I'm just going to kind of put that on the table It seems quite reasonable. We would get a new book this year. Yep. Okay and so I don't care if a new chamber is part of this or not is my answer to that question You don't care if they release, uh, tendu kits Uh, no, not really. I I really don't I mean like I think that would be much I think that but you know when you put a number like that out there that would probably be a bit much, right? Well, I mean for sacrosanct. Isn't that what we got? Sacrosanct was a very big expansion to launch along with aos too You'd wonder if you'd get that kind of thing in an off year But anyways, no, that's neither against my my design my plans or for it Also, let me say one other thing I would just like to point out the number of dislikes We have in the comments right now as it's very high for this point in the show This is what happens when you talk about stormcast they get they they draw some hate So if you're watching now and you like this discussion Hey hit like and then help balance out all those people who are clearly very angry at us for even mentioning stormcast All right, so anyway, it is your hate is delicious. Continue. Uh boy. Oh boy Uh, sorry. We talked about stormcast for those people at any rate. Uh, so here's my 40 000 vision I don't care if they release new kits or not, but I assume there's a new book And what needs to be done Is one we need to invest actual allegiance abilities into them. Okay, they don't have any right now They have a they have an allegiance ability. That's like a sub allegiance ability of any other army that has it Okay, say that again. Like what do you mean by that? Their ability to basically deploy from the heavens to to be reserve Okay, and Is their primary allegiance ability? and What what are you anding me on there's more there's more in their allegiance abilities. Sure. Okay So what what are what are there other allegiance abilities tom? When they show up they have shock and awe Which means that they're minus one to hit for the for the term until your next euro phase after they show up uh That doesn't trigger just when you come down from the heavens it triggers every every time you set up Uh, so every teleport. Are there some other allegiance abilities we're getting here too tom? No, just that. Okay. That's I said real allegiance abilities. Okay Don't make me pull a magneto on you. I said real allegiance abilities I could do the meme right now. All right and pull up like scaven and say perfection Right because if you put those two things next to each other, right? Are we even or or cities or whatever? Right. In fact, let's just pick cities since that can contain storm caster Right. Yeah, it's it's not even it's not even Remotely in the same universe, right like cities. It's just like 72 different abilities plus the city's thing like yes a minor buff when they lightning strike and in with off of by the way An allegiance ability that gets turned off in a terrible scenario Sorry, it's till the end of the turn. I'm being corrected by 100 people in the comments Not until the next euro phase. I don't care if you get into combat you're a neg one to hit on any setup That's super great. It's a bad ability and it doesn't matter. So there's what I'll say They don't have allegiance abilities. So at a high level, they They need real allegiance abilities. Okay and Two that are bonus spells that aren't bonus prayers Well, I'll talk about exactly what I want them to be but I want them to have a suite of functional allegiance abilities that drive play styles Okay, that's the point, right If they are a starter army, then they should have at least a fairly obvious play style as well as some Divergent ability to to utilize different play styles, right? Because you want them to be they're going to be popular You want people to be able to play them in a couple different ways You can use different allegiance style abilities to shape That you can also then support that with the chambers and with the you know, battalions and other things It doesn't have to this doesn't have to carry all the weight, but you can use that to inform it Okay You can even use it to inform certain Chambers and things like that, right? So think for example of something like the ogres and how regular ogres get do damage when they charge and the Your everwinter units, you know, the your beast claw raiders units Your bcr units bring the everwinter with them and stuff like that We can talk about whether or not those abilities are good or bad, but they do create like this concept that did There's different things going on in the army Right sure on an army that's a quarter of the size When I'm talking about ogres probably I don't know the number I don't have the kit number in front of me. Let's say somewhere between a quarter or a third of the size of just worlds sure, um So and then what we're going to do is my my solution is very simple I don't want to drop points points should not go down Okay, everybody wants to drop points all the time. That's always the cry points need to go down No, stop that. Okay. We cannot keep doing this Like the more we keep dropping points The more we race to the bottom I mean, it's cannot be the world we live in. Okay. It's just a race. It's okay It's it is literally a toilet But that you're that you're just swirling down okay And you can't keep because you lower the points on this then somebody else wants their points brought down And then that causes a cascade where somebody else wants their points brought down And then somebody else and then somebody else and then all of a sudden everything is too cheap And we're gonna have to eventually bring a bunch of points up and everybody's gonna hate that Okay So I don't want to bring any points down What I do want to do, however is make the war scrolls worth the points that are printed on them And so my concept here is very simple The 40 000 foot idea is the problem with stormcast is that ultimately it was designed in a slapdash fashion There was no great grand plan to the army It wasn't like a singular book where they sat down and said this is how the army works This is what we wanted to do these units do this these units do that This is the play styles we're supporting right it was split over like five releases The beginning stuff came out of a launch of aos They had no idea what they wanted what this product was going to look like in four years, right? And so it was just all over the it's it's all over the shop right The new book that comes out is Is going to stop step back Look at all of this reroll things roll r-o-l-e Yep, the various scrolls and make sure they firmly sit in that role Side note, I don't want much synergy in this army Interesting, okay This army should have some simple buffs here and there Okay, like sure your your lord castellate can do his lantern thing and buff a unit. I'm good with that Right and maybe like a relic turd dude can heal a guy or or whatever. Okay, like there could be some very simple buffs They can put around here or there and when I say simple, I mean simple Right things like plus one to save plus one to hit things that are relatively So what I'm hearing you say is they are way too synergistic right now Because that's not the world we live in. I would probably roll it back when I'm redesigning the war scrolls. Yes, that's correct I would roll back synergy and what instead I want to see them be Okay, because they're not a combined arms type of mixed force ultimately like they're not the city's a sigmar They're not scaven Okay, but they can be with their current war scroll suites The what they should feel like is you're playing the superheroes of the mortal realms Okay Sure These guys are sigmar's finest and they should be relatively independent operators with basic power pair combinations A hero and his unit right this hero buffs this unit It's not about getting five heroes stacked onto one thing to make a death star or something like that, right? It's about like this guy is with this unit He provides them a benny and they go and they're they are Right, these are the guys function on their they're independent operators And by the way, they don't always need the hero lots times these guys are basically heroes Right. I and what I would say is that I would argue that we see some of this already with sacrifice sank Because they self buff sure like so like I'm thinking about like The sequiturs like they're like we need to be tanky re-rolls We need to You know re-roll saves we need to be punchy re-roll hits Right, like they self buff like they are truly self sufficient. They don't need heroes buffing Right, and that's the kind of like what I want to see is ideally Like a little bit of synergy has to be in the game because you also have to learn the game Right. Yeah, and So part of that is teaching how buffs and kind of synergies and stuff like that works, right? Yep And oh somebody said isn't that how rock bringers work? Yeah, kind of some some of the rock bringer stuff is very much like that and I think that's a correct Principle not just because we would follow that doesn't mean that all of a sudden we're turning them into nervel You can there are still lots of differences between these two armies But yes ostensibly like what stormcast the way you read stormcast narratively and you see them Is like a small group of them can drop down and turn the tide of a battle Yes yes, and so like Ostensibly they should be Hold on. Can I can I I saw LLB's point? And yes, his point is like be careful because they can be allied into other things they can show up in cities of sigmar Fine. So here's here's a counterpoint to that LLB. What I would say is this I actually I think that's perfect Let them be awesome You know points for what they are self contained because guess what they need to be the perfect allies That's kind of the narrative point Yes, and again, we're not pushing it OP right. They're just always good at their role What I'm actually saying is when we re-rolify them, right? What happens is they become an an exemplary version to you to use a little bit of loaded language to make a stormcast illusion, right? um They become a very a good strong version of that thing. Yeah, okay So that's my high level pitch. Okay, so I don't need more bodies. I don't need more anything else I want to take this army at the scroll level and the allegiance level back to formula and re-rack And it and so if you are envisioning that Where do you feel? um Storm hosts fit in Sure So because if if you're baking into them more uh more set Rolls more set like how light do storm hosts if you're right now storm hosts are super heavy in this army So give an example of what you like walk everybody through what you mean because I'd like you to I'd like you to support that with an example Yeah, okay. So right now storm hosts. Um Um They set like let me just start and start this way. Um right now when you use a storm host any storm host your item and your Um command trait are set period There's no wiggling around it. There's no like keyword Um, there's no keyword bingo. Sure. That's happening where it's not like the first guy on mall crusher has to have this thing It's like, well, I'll take a different guy. Yeah, I get it Right, like there's none of that and so like any time you play a storm host you automatically throw out All the standard command traits and arguably the best standard command trait is in the generics Um, and so you throw that out completely um, and then You also lose an item and there's really no good battalions and all the storm cast right now Zero and so by by by doing that you basically lose all item selections as well currently in the current book Obviously in the new book we would have valuable battalions like that's that's just a gimme but whatever But it's just what i'm saying is is it really dictates your choice um And a lot of the abilities are largely throw away in the current design And so there's not a lot of incentive to do them. And so the question is is Do you do a lot of just like random abilities that are kind of throw away that and and just make the whole Like thing storm host Mechanical lighter on the design space where it doesn't have as much of an impact where you have artifacts more readily It's accessible or command trait flexibility. Like what do you do with that or do you lead into the heavy? This is actually an easy answer Have it dictate more go ahead. Okay. So think about how they so one of the things that's happened with The chamber concept since it was sort of you know introduced Yep, is that they've gotten very refined at Designing these in in a way that supports Specific play styles armies unit combinations, etc. They've gotten much better. Yeah, absolutely. I agree So let's take it. Let's take a gander back to a recent show where we are looking and let's look at something like the the seraphon Uh spawnings or whatever, right? Yep those have a Fairly obvious, but not overtly constraining Yep way that they seem to want to be used now whatever whatever we can talk about the whole Uh, you know starborn versus coalesced and that kind of thing. So that's not what I mean Let's just take that out of the equation for the moment What I'm referencing here Is and no, I would not chamberlock the battalions. Somebody asked me that no, absolutely not No, I would not. No, we don't need to do that. We don't need to do that. Okay What we can do is we can take the seraph. By the way, you see this in the recent corn book as well Okay, like there's lots of books that utilize this tech. I'm about to describe So here's this book Here's this chamber. Sorry What it does is it benefits this particular unit slash play style? Yeah, right. Okay. So like thunder lizards in seraphon says, uh monsters get two wounds and It you know your chief if he's on a monster gets this Benny and and like it's incentivizing you to play a monstery force But not an all monster force. You can play with like two or three monsters and that's still a very worthwhile Uh selection of your your spawning or whatever, right? Yes And the same thing with overhead is so useful with only a couple of monster trucks. Correct. Yep, exactly So like what those chambers need to be is more elegantly designed to focus on specific units This can also do some of the lifting by the buy To make certain units more worth it. So we don't have the problem llv was talking about Right, right, right So because one of lv's concerns as well If you if you ramp like let's say you just ramp liberators up to be like the most super duper anvil in the history of Andals, they're just they're just the best. They make petrofex elite more tech guard look like chumps. Okay Fine. All right Then the problem is going to be everybody can ally with them and suddenly they show up in every every army as everybody's Andal, right? Yep, but you can carry some of that weight Through battalions and chambers, right? You can say They become super super tanky in the right chamber, which isn't accessible to allies exactly Yep, they go from good tank to great tank or something like that, right? Yeah No, I agree and and that lets you then define better your roles And no, you don't need to to chamberlock them But you can you can like you can push and nudge toward using certain Items right like or sorry using certain. I don't mean items as far as magic items. I meant like You fine using certain units uh You can have like this particular storm host is focused on it gives a benny to liberators And sequiturs and it's fairly evenly distributed and again don't think of the current scrolls Imagine there's no parity between those two, right? So great there the and and everybody in the army gets sort of this kind of defensive Benny maybe or something or the command ability is a defensive benny that can be evoked Whatever, right? And that kind of then shapes not your whole army But this the theory of the case when it comes to that right Yep uh so I think that's how you shape that and that's what makes sense to me, right? I don't hate that Uh, so okay Cool, that's and that's my theory of the case now. I've got a lot more to say on this And I'll get into specific like details and things like that Let me say one more thing along the our guiding principle of keeping it simple. Okay Things that they currently lack That a lot of people have They often get called out for is that they don't have like the real fancy shiny stuff that a lot of armies have of like I don't know some like maybe some stuff in the activation wars or whatever, right? I don't want them to have any of those things I don't think they need those things to compete Which is yet another reason why I want them to be relatively strong good versions of their thing Of well, I think you design rules you design the rules around the activation wars without actually giving them the activation wars And so for example You make it so that they're the triggering of their re-rolls is happening at the end of the charge phase rather than to be in the combat phase With sequiturs. Sure That my proposal is is that you so that you what it what it means is that they that they still stay tanky and defensive regardless of the of the of the uh Uh, or give them give it to them ever Athenia ever hero phase or whatever You know like make it make it make that call whatever that buff is much earlier in the in the in the turn Yes, I'm okay with that. I understand. Yes. In other words, don't fall victim to it. Just have your stuff kind of work So you get to kind of ignore certain elements of that, right? Right? Yeah, that's fine Uh, because ultimately I do want to keep these interactions these these spaces that they play in Yep, relatively straightforward Yep, right. Yep And again, we're not going to cut kits so I can't get rid of anything So I've got to find uses for everything that's here, right? Yeah, sure uh Okay, so Would you do anything different? Let me say that Uh, I would be the terrible person um, who would I I think that they need to add Like let me just say this You don't need to adjust. Uh You don't need to adjust points if you're redesigning all those scrolls. Yep Okay, so I agree with that. Um, so, uh, you if you are going to keep I mean But you need to be more aggressive if abilities are staying the same on a lot of scrolls You need to be more aggressive with pointing. Um, the other thing that I would say is that I think that there really is a place for um Like devotees of sigmar in the storm cast eternal's army Okay Um, and so I've said it before a couple times. I'm going to say it again Like I think in order of azir army of like witch hunters and like faithful and Like servants people who like who aspire to become storm cast I think that there's a function in an army like this a support function I don't want you I don't want to see like armies of like 40 blocks of units. That's not what I want to see I mean, that's the inevitability of what you're talking about No No, because if they're not if they're not fulfilling the these types of roles then no, I'm not Like you'd have to walk this line really carefully because otherwise what's gonna happen is you get marauders Yes, and that's not what marauders tom because that's how you get marauders You have this beautiful chaos faction of elite heavy armor dudes And what actually swarms the board is a bunch of viking barbarian Numpties, right and that's and if they did if they made the flagellant mistake then yes But if those pieces are inherently Uh more expensive units of like groups of priests that do like group chants and buff units and do support things Then no you don't end up with marauders And so there is a design space here I think that would be really interesting for like a witch hunter like squaw a small unit of or whatever Um or like, uh, I think that there are tools here. That's what I'm saying Of design space that they can play around with with the priestly cast with these human servitors Um, that would be a really interesting chamber to unlock. That's what I would say I would be fine with it if it was just heroes I wouldn't want a single unit on the board like that is to say multi person unit I wouldn't mind a units of like three witch hunters Okay, I'll I'll allow it. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, they're all like four or five wound dudes. Yeah, I'm with that Yeah, yeah, sure like that's what I'm saying like having these like little like these really interesting different types of units um And yeah, yeah, right Yeah, okay, so yeah, no, that's cool idea I could I could get behind that my my fear with introducing the human element is it like just regular numpty humans is that almost anytime you Like uh, they they swarm the board many times when this happens. What happens is then this becomes the way to run the army Do you run trolls and big squigs or do you run tons of goblins? It's always tons of goblins like like if you want to play with the power version, right again We're just talking from it about like I'm not talking from your personal aesthetic perspective because I find this to be the least Aesthetically compelling, but I'm saying like as it stands right now Competitively you run a ton of goblins Right, and that's part of Cancellators and colonists knights or giant blocks and marauders the answer is giant blocks and marauders Well, that's part of it. That's that's partially how the scenarios are currently designed though Yes, I understand that and that's the problem. There's such an immediate again Exempt all rules if some lorem every rule on the scroll, right And the unit of 40 has an innate benny over the unit of 20 or 10 Oh Always always and so you have to design to that if you don't want them to become the thing that becomes More of a systemic problem with how the scenarios are currently designed um And so, uh Yeah But I like the idea of like sort of elite stuff like sure human priests or or warrior priests or or witch hunters small units of that Kind of stuff all your own that'd be a cool idea like especially units of witch hunters Uh Units of like a unit of witch hunters make sense in an a in a storm cast army It takes three of them to kind of be on par Right, right, right. Absolutely. And I'm okay like not even giving them four like five wounds each Like make them three or four wounds Or you know, like I'm okay with that. It should be like four wounds Like injured rigors get away with that injured rigors are running around units of three three injured rigors with two wounds each Yeah, I I think the answer is the the I don't dive too deep in it. It's because it's getting in the weeds, but uh, but sure like the answer is, uh Like three witch hunters with four wounds each they're effectively all heroes think like they're the good version of uh of verandgaard, right? It's basically right Uh, but not as not as sort of overwhelmingly. It's they're not one in ten bajillion or whatever the number is Okay, and that would be an introduction to that Operate amongst the storm cast and that would be my point. Yeah, no, that's cool. I dig that idea. That's good I could see something like that. That'd be a great addition to the army uh, because again, it's not bringing out Just giant blocks of flagellants, right? Which is what I it's not changing how the army plays The army should be winning with its units of five and ten and maybe 15 dudes That's like that's the challenge here, right? We've got to win with those numbers Okay, that means you have to well and I would argue that that that points though to a bigger systemic problem with scenario design and how and how low Unit or low model count armies compete, but it doesn't have to okay. Yes, you're right like theoretically sure But it doesn't have to okay You have to be aware of that innate penalty Yeah, right and design according to it. Sure. I would agree with that All right, like it's not that's not yes, you're correct. There is an innate bias there towards the larger units and towards those kinds of things in the current system, so Let's just fix that right. Let's just fix that by having them be better at their jobs Pound for pound where they can actually accomplish what they need to do Tactical superiority each model counts for two models. No, I'm not I'm absolutely not No, I don't want them the ogres have that and I don't think anybody else should really get that You know, like maybe giants however giants have some weird version of that, but I've been superiority Once they have an objective the objective can't be taken from that unit until they're eliminated Uh, well, I actually think you can do it just on numbers I don't think you need to do this through a rule. Maybe you do. Maybe you don't maybe I'm overtly hopeful But here's my arty. Let me let me lay this out for you. Tom. You ready? Here we go Let's take all the damage that that like so so okay before I get into this. Let's let's split it out like this So let me let me trot out some very let me rapid fire ideas at you here Okay, and as as martin pointed out. Yes, I kept saying chamber instead of storm post and yes Sorry, I'm using those things interchangeably. Yep, but yes because he doesn't play storm cast and I don't Hey, I have a storm cast army. It's right over there. I do I everybody has storm cast army That's what we're talking about. Well, mine's painted Yours isn't uh Mine are on the appropriate size bases. It's all right. All my storm cast are on the right size bases Uh at any rate Uh, okay, so let's talk basic principles. Yes, I would bring out the chambers and I would make I would filter Some of the chamber stuff into allegiance abilities Okay Wait, you're saying you would filter the storm hosts No, no, no, no, no, no the storm post stay the storm post anvils of Anvils and hammers and celestial vindicators. Those are still all storm posts. They're they're whatever they are, right? Chambers are warrior chamber and extremist chamber and all the stuff we talked about earlier Yeah, so you're saying like extremist chamber units have a certain rule and warrior chamber units have a certain rule Correct. Yep. Okay like scaven like ogres like Yeah Goblins for that matter, right? No, they don't work that way the moon grants all those stupid abilities Nonetheless, it's still a thing, right? Like the the moon affects by that stuff, you know, yeah We can argue about how good the moon is but nonetheless, there are plenty of examples of this Right So like all of the units in the warrior chamber get this all of the units in the sacro check chamber get this Yep I think all the units in the warrior chamber should get stalwart defender passively Is that just the uh, plus one? Wait, you mean staunch? I just want to save if they don't charge Yeah, plus one to save if they didn't charge a term sure like we can we can talk about how we'd want to shape these again a lot of that still You know down the line in the weeds in the weeds But it's but it's a point good point. Sure. You could take staunch defender and and put it down into those units Right. So like, yeah, liberators are automatically plus one to save if they don't charge all the time That's just what they are, right or something like that Yeah, or whatever, right, uh, the the uh Your um Your vanguard guys, you're you know, all your raptor dudes and all that kind of stuff Uh, you know, they can have maybe more speed if they're you know, they could have almost like a Retreat in charge Yeah, like a built-in retreat in charge or if they're not in combat They could just have a natural bonus to their their speed or something in charge Yeah, yep, exactly Uh, like just various sort of play like again, don't I don't Wanted people to run up. We're not designing abilities, but we're just footballing, right The idea is just then that helped shape not only What the points of these things are because in the story in the narrative of the stormcast these chambers matter They matter a lot Right, right. They're like and like you do and they deploy they truly like deploy as a chamber Yes, the warrior chamber was unleashed first for a reason right because it had to go down and it had to it had to beach head The other mortal realms, right? Hence why I I just saw a defender because like that's what they did they claimed and helped like and that was their point Yeah, and so and this also then would give people interesting incentive by the buy to play in That space Like to do a mono chambers it would give you a little more Tension it would design it a better 45 degree angle Now I agree where we would create tension between the linear design of I took one warrior chamber thing hence I'll keep taking warrior chamber things and the the sort of completely modular design of I'm just going to go best in breed from across stormcast, right which in it like ends up like People grab sequiturs instead of liberators etc etc correct the second way We're going to do this is we're going to learn uh from our friends in the cities of sigmar Okay, who did this right? So in cities of sigmar there are multiple Very very very very very similar similar units Okay, who we're all like roughly like let's just take an easy example There's a wide swath of like elite ish infantry Who are all some variation of like Threes and threes and neg one to rend and one using two and a weapons. Yeah. Yeah Like there's just a bunch of these dum-dums running around, right? Great towards executioners black guards, uh, phoenix guard um, the wild rangers um, thunders hammers I'm sorry 900 hammers Come on. Come on. I know there's more. Um, that's a good list. Thank you. That's that's that's well serving of the point, right? Yep. Yep. So, um The point of that is is that the way that and yet people do use lots of different versions of those now Some of them don't get taken. Okay, arguably They do it because of the power pairs that exist Exactly There you go, tom now you got it So, yeah, some of them like sure wildwood rangers are probably kind of a miss But you do see people like take hammers or take, you know, great towards or take the different things because of the power pair That's the next thing we're gonna do. We have this challenge of we have all these heroes Right, right. Okay That have their own chamber that have their own chamber like set to them Like these heroes are representatives of particular chambers Right like the lord aqua lord Now or or at least they are often associated with them. I understand in the big spread They actually kind of the cellistence and castellans actually like sit above that and not everybody's necessarily related The relic are sitting the relic or chamber whatever whatever I get it. Okay, please don't I know I know how the storm cast chamber thing looks I get it. It looks like this. Okay, I know Please don't um, actually me, okay Uh, my point is is that it in release And often in play and specifically some of the heroes they have a very tight alignment to this stuff, right? You've got the you've got the magical guy on a griff charger or on a toralon or on a whatever. Yeah We're on foot, right? You've got the the hunter guy and he's on his little raptor bird monster dog, right? Bird dog. I like using all these wrong names. You know what I'm saying? There's there's alignment here and yes, you create the power pairs again here to further put tension on that And there are some power pairs that already exist They just need to ramp up like and what I mean by that is like if you look at the lord aquilore He obviously pairs well with other stuff from his chamber Um because he can pick them up and teleport them around some of them are way too specific Yep, some of them are currently way too broad Right. Yeah, and what I'm arguing for is we keep a few that are weak but quite broad Very simple broad interactions and this is like your celestine Your castellant the dudes who literally are kind of outside of the command order that the leaders of the storm cast the great lords Who report to sigmar, right? They retain these like powerful That is to say like in in scope of the fact that they can apply to anybody But sort of weak in effect ish stuff plus one to save plus one to hit plus one to attack Whatever like those are solid buffs and they can kind of apply across the board Right, but there you limit them through things like range or whatever. So they need to be played as a power pair and then you take your uh Then you take the other guys who are tightly associated And you have them specifically buff that chamber Right And they do that in a way that is more focused and more suited to that individual play style So then you can have five different aggressive hammers Like you're you're like literally hammers and and executioners and great swords and whatever like we just said But depending on what you're aiming to build you will find yourself selecting each one of the units that helps stop the Just pick the best in breed right always take sequiturs over liberators Yep, always take uh for chute cast always take the dumb Rappers sure sorry like I like they're up on the shelf. Uh, yes, I understand Rather than taking judicators. Sure So you can have and that's just that's a great example, right? You can have like three different types of shooty guys. You can have Uh, you can have judicators and you can have Uh, you can have the raptors and you can have uh castigators and they can all be different Because they all have different sort of power pairs in different ways. They're working and and sort of And because of the because we can call back to the initial allegiance abilities Then you have this kind of thing that's going to suit a particular play style or build better Does that make sense? Totally agree. Yep. Okay So what this then gives you is one a set of real allegiance abilities Two and I can't I cannot understate the value of this If this is an intro army You should have these kinds of things there. You're incentivizing people to build like to you're you are signaling how to build Right, boom From the actual structure of the book and the rules themselves Yep Yep. Yeah, exactly and it is new player friendly You don't have to have like a beautiful mind understanding of the wall of numbers In order to put together an army Exactly. Yes. It's like you can look right you look and go. Oh, okay cool. Well, I like these dudes with robes That's a sacrosanct dude. Oh, I see. Okay. All my sacrosanct units do this Now I can look through and find my sacrosanct units and I see oh this lord buff sacrosanct units cool I'll take this guy and this other sacrosanct unit And now I'm building an army and I didn't have to understand the other 70 war scrolls Right, right, right? It's important to have this kind of stuff in there And by the way, somebody had mentioned in the comments and I do think this is a A decent point is somebody mentioned that like the the vanguard chamber is actually a pretty good Like Instructive example of this because they're kind of one of the ones that's built It does this already a little bit. It's built more like what I'm talking about, right? Right. And yes, absolutely It's well and ever even sequiturs are not sequiturs the The sacrosanct are as well because their leaders their command abilities trigger the abilities of other sacrosanct To a point, but some of that the problem is let me let me let me say the difference that with sacrosanct Yep The reason I think though and extremists does this is with their command abilities as well The problem is none of them are focused on a play style as much as vanguard No, that's true. It's true. That's the challenge Yep The reason I don't what I'm saying this it's not just like oh limited so it affects this chamber. Yes, that's fine It's not just that right. Yeah, it's a it needs to play correctly as well play style power pairs Yes, right And vanguard actually does that really well like the vanguard stuff actually makes sense in how it's working and synergizing together And working is this very mobile skirmishy force a lot of the stuff in say sacrosanct You look at the sort of command ability stuff and you're like what why why would that be the thing this chamber does Yeah, right It just feels like you tried to take a second crack at designing what should be the generic command abilities across the army Yeah, yep, which I suspect is what happened and and that's the problem, right? Yep So you can still certainly mix chambers. My point is not again just in case people are missing the thread here, right? Yeah I'm not trying to say that suddenly the right way to play the army is linear just like Just like right now in cities the right way to play cities probably Isn't to just do a hundred percent dwarfs No, it's not it's right. You do a power pair of Wanderers where you have a sisters of the thorn backing an eternal guard unit And you have a unit of an advanced unit of phoenix guard with a phoenix And you have that yada yada or you're pairing things up. Yeah So like it's not that you can't play in all that theme. That's fine again So we allow people to play in theme and have that be a perfectly fun fine army, right? Right and Then you also but you know like the quote-unquote competitive build is putting together these kinds of combinations or selecting throughout there and then using it for specific purposes, right? But you still have more of a distinct build out idea where it becomes Uh a more logical combination of plays you're making. This is my mobile group. They're going to go out there and get objectives. This is my Anvil group that's going to go out there and hold and this is my hammer group Right something to put it in the most simple terms possible. Do you think this book that we get? hypothetically of new storm cast Let me let me let me say something controversial. So so let's say that we have another storm cast book coming Is this the first uh, is this the first storm post book we get? What like in other words the new book is just literally hammers of sigmar or something hammers Right, I don't think so. Okay. I think that sure on a long enough timeline. Yes, that happens, but no, I don't think yet You don't think that it's this edition The reason why I ask that is because we're deep enough in this edition That they could begin to play in that space And like they have a deep enough bench with storm cast where they could actually like play in that space could um And they go hyper specific on the rules and hyper specific, you know on the chamber stuff, right? Yep And they resolve some of this by like limiting the storm hosts Sure, you could I'm kind of against that at this point. I'd love to see well And that's fine and like and that's fine if you're against it. I'm just wondering, you know I'm using out loud, but like is this that like is So for anybody that ever like was into second edition d&d One of the things that you notice like that in in development When you when you begin to gain like system blow like when you get deep into a rule set Is you end up getting like narrow or a narrow or focus like materials and books sure And it just makes me wonder with us deep this deep into Uh second edition Is we're like two and a half two years going on to is it or will we be at two years this summer? Or will we be at three? We'll be at two Oh, jeez. You just honestly made me think about that We'll be it I don't remember. This is the fifth anniversary. How about that this this July 4th is the fifth anniversary We'll be at two years because it was the 30 anniversary that we that we got. Yes. Okay, so Uh, gosh, we should mean We may have another year hypothetically Uh before we're going to begin to talk about new editions and square races. Sure. Appreciate. Um, uh, but Uh, so like this is the time where that design would begin to kick up Yeah, but the problem is I so I did a whole podcast on this on undesign on my rpg podcast We literally talked about this problem And yeah, I it is a problem. I don't disagree and that's it. It's a problem avoid it if you can because it's just bloat It just creates bloat. You don't need this you can do this stuff without these additional books Okay, like you just don't need it and again, there's not a lot of return on this You're selling to a smaller and smaller audience every time. It's not in anyone's interest to do this Okay, I I agree the only way they could the only reason they can get away with it theoretically in 40k Is because the fan base is so large and because space marines are so popular Right, like it's it's the meta percentage of space marines is Well, well well beyond what stormcast are right? Well, and that's the question. Are we moving towards that? And should we not be moving towards that? I don't think we are and I don't think we should I agree. I don't think we should. I think we are though And so that's why I raised the question of is this is this the release where we move to that? And that that's the question my answer is no there you go. I hope not. I agree with you I agree with you. I hope not so The third step on this road by the way is individual war scroll design because when you look at somebody like Any book where you've got competing units that are filling a similar role in a large army? The next thing you do is you differentiate at the war scroll level, right? You have sort of minor things that are happening on the war scrolls themselves that suit them better to individual roles So let me just trot out a a sample here an example Okay, this wouldn't have to be the real rules Okay, all right. Just so we're all on this page with that Okay, so let's say the warrior chamber did have your staunch defender thingy. Okay Like you're you're you're if they don't charge the Sure, okay, so now libs are kind of running around it at a three up save. Okay In fact, let's just let's just make it really fun and change it from staunch defender and say that But let's be a little smarter about it than we were with with petrofex. Okay. Yep. Let's say something like It goes in six no no no units without the hero keyword get this Okay, because most heroes are already on a three up save. Yep heroes instead get a different thing Who cares? Yeah, something else. Okay uh, so Then we go and then the so that's sort of the warrior chamber thing of the generic allegiance abilities, right? And there's a That obviously the uh, there maybe there's a hero that can give them plus one to save Let's just assume we carry the castellant, right? Yep. So, okay, great Maybe we could even have non hero units increase their save characteristic by one Reason not just a plus one. We set them to a three up, right? Okay. Yep Uh, whatever we could we could play with that in different ways. Sure. So then they also have this plus one Uh, then the unit itself Right. So the liberators themselves They could be the unit that have a five up save against mortal wounds There's something like that, right? They could they could have like chaos shield type effects, right? Yep whereas Uh, the sacrosanct guys Whatever they do, maybe they keep their shield tilt and they reroll their saves all the time But they're just at whatever they're at Right. Yeah, and they don't have the data so they don't have the mortal wound save, right? Yep Uh, and and so on and so forth you get what I'm saying. So that's like you could split So these are all our anvil units lilies seckeys so on, right? and We can we can make them defensive in different ways by the way We could take the what are the what are the basic pistol dudes out of the The I don't even remember their name because it's been so long since I've used those guys 100 hunters. Yeah, that's what they are, right? Yes, vanguard hunters They could be the raptor's Anvil unit, okay Okay, and their defensive way that they are anvils could be something like a Skinky retreat from combat. Really they pull out. Yeah, right where they're defensive by just leaving Right, they can just make a normal move away All right. Yep, which would be amazing when activated. Sure. So now you have kind of three different Tanks types of defensive units. Yeah, right Doing different things. Yep one that can be pretty kind of an all-arounder One that has more spell casting focus and prayers and can tilt for offense or defense in the sequiturs, right? So they're kind of more playing jack of all trades and one that does it through mobility. Cool. Yep Now they all have a role. They all have their power pairs. They all have their unique things that they're doing great Depending on your army. You have a reason to take any one of those three perhaps Yep, right and then once you do all that Then you do the points Right and you figure out where these things lie Okay, I don't agree that uh You know, you could do the same thing with hammers and God almighty does this army have hammers, right? I mean it is I I all the hammers. Yeah, all the hammers. I mean, it's ironic, right literally literally all the hammers but the um What you do with the hammers is first of all storm cast need to be more damaging. Let's just start there Almost like anything that I didn't just mention that's an anvil. They can stay relatively weakly offensive Okay, like they can kind of stay where they are things that are meant to crush face These guys need to crush face harder. And again, remember we're pulling out some of this energy here, right? So but like these things need to things like retributors And evocators should hit like should hit like mac trucks Yeah, like evocator if you used to Well, evocator sure. Yeah, I mean, it's not like they got somehow weaker. They just it just became less Super Sure, sure. So like they did Like per point they did get weaker completely fair point. Yes. I only meant they didn't change the scroll, but you're absolutely right how punch per point All right on the offensive ppp ratio Right. They went down perfectly fair Yeah, so like these things especially the slower Right that these guys are Yeah, uh The more hard hitting in effect they should be also Apply the same thing to your star drakes, right? I'd love to see the star drakes actually split in two where in a more very sort of strong fashion where the uh, celestine star drake is Is your is your anvil and the templar star drake is your absolutely your hammer Right, and that guy should just he should come in like a wrecking ball Right, like you should you should be forced to play miley cyrus every time you attack with that guy because he hits so hard It's the only song that can fit, right? So you're saying he should be putting up Uh mall crush numbers. Yes Yeah, 100 and by the way, I'm okay with costing him there too. He wouldn't be that much of a change Right. Yes. I'm not at all. Yeah um Mouse bait, I'm not sure what that would honestly look like I'd have to think about that a lot I said, do you think worse girls should really be more like mtg sets in a way adding new special abilities I'm not changing the base model sort of I would need to think about what that even means You know, I don't know that I have a full answer that I hadn't considered that kind of thing so and and the the core Points value still stays liberators are the hundred points of the game They're what everything else is built off of they stay a hundred points, but they're a hundred points worth of anvil Right. They are tough Right, and they're worth it. And by the way, they're They're tougher than tough at a hundred points They're tougher than other units might be at a hundred points because again, they'll have less overall synergy And two they have the innate elite army problem Right. Yeah, so we're going to make them tougher So they are harder to kill off when you get five or ten of them on a point It is harder to pull them off So yes, you might be able to body block them maybe right just charge them with enough and they're they're still staying weakly offensive But if you don't wipe them out Then the hammers coming for you and when the hammer of the storm cast arrives that other unit is dead Right because these guys because when the drakoth writers or the evocators or the the Uh, retributors show up. It's just like get rid of this garbage. Get this off of my point Right. This is gone now Okay, the damage numbers need to be higher Yeah, that's that's what I'm saying like literally we could take a lot of these offensive guys A lot of these hammer units and just literally tick their damage up by one in many cases across the board Sure Right like just that's a good start. Yeah, okay Just they were damaged too now they're damaged three they're damage one damage two at least And like we can have extra stuff like you can still have extra kicks and mortal wounds and things like that Although I'll tell you right now In my redesign, I would strip a lot of nonsense out of the sacrosanct Chamber there's just a lot of like it didn't need to be designed like that overtly flaky weird rules in there Sacrosanct honestly needs the most attention Uh followed closely Yes, because there's just a lot of like there's a lot of nonsense in there You know, you can have them be priests and and magical type people in simpler ways Things like sequiturs and evocators are fine. A lot of their heroes just have like a lot of this extra weight That doesn't need to be there Their war scrolls are so large. They're it's just it's they're over designed For what should be a starter army? Yeah, right? Yep Uh So, uh, you know like speaking of hammers somebody since since nicholas just mentioned him. Yes, the celestin prime Right, if the celestin prime comes in on turn three Bye Yeah, bye to whatever he just dropped on Right like yeah, he makes things go boom boom because he has gall maras the hammer of sigmar himself Right like get out of here with your four attacks or whatever nonsense you're making How is his damage anywhere in the realm of reason? Right? It's it's It's insane. Yeah um The thing that I uh where I want them to stay relatively weak is in stuff like magic a lot of people complain their casters are kind of overcosted and Don't and and like aren't double casters for the most part and you know, don't have a lot of good Utilities of like that. Honestly, I'm kind of okay with that like they should have purpose So give them things like utility that make them interesting for their points Okay So an encounter having a scroll or arcanums being able to do some other kind of buff or something like that But I don't like stormcast should not be the magic Army That's not what they should not be out casting zinch and seraphon Right, right. They can have magic like lots of armies have magic in that they have casters and they're just okay Right, but their casters bring other utility to the battle because they they are warrior gods in their own right Right. Yeah, and what I would say is that I think that that's where the buffs of like the sequiturs and stuff like that Should really shine is that they should be flavored like magic that is just not dispelable But it's super limited, right? Sure. Sure. Sure. Like yes, they you can like whatever the types of things you can you can picture lots of Cool spells they can do most of their current spells are fine and stuff like that. I'm good with all that Most of their current prayers are fine. I'm good with all that You know, it's just like the they because they touch all of these things like because they have shooting and tank you know and And and and and I don't want that like they should be kind of overshadowed in magic Right Yeah, and all their prayers should just basically fire on a three plus without re-rolls And that makes it fairly unreliable, right? Yep, when you when in the average game if you pray all five turns you fail two prayers Yep That's yeah, okay. Good. Where we should be Right But where they excel is in the block the basic blocking and tackling of the game They hit hard they tank well and they have basic power pair synergies that work together Yeah And that makes them like they are the utility they should be the Uh, like I don't this probably this is gonna cut this is gonna translate But they should be like the Ford Taurus of armies, right? It's effective It's a good car. Whatever you pick what you want like the Honda Civic. I don't know pick a thing like that, right? Yeah, they're they're a good solid sedan and yes, they have some fun things like sure They've got some teleportation here and there to to further pick up there like they come from the heavens lighting drop Obviously, they keep that allegiance ability because that's very flavorful and fluffy But you know a regular teleport is a teleport and it should be you know, it's on a prayer or a spell Right, so it's it's hard to get at like because the prayer will fail two out of five times or you know Something around that that ratio and or one out of three however you want to think about it And the the spell you're not a great spellcaster. So the spell could be dispelled right, right and so You know, there's a lot of their units are still suffering from being kind of slow often If you can't get because you can only get that teleport of that spell off You're not going to have a ton of those things. So yeah, maybe you can move a unit or two units or something like that Uh, but a lot of your dudes are going to be just hooping it So when they get there, they better work like that's ultimately what I want, right? They they should work and they should punch above their weight By either offense or defense assuming it's because of that Right because they're slower Not just because they're slower But because they're They don't have all these other tricks. They're not going to be piling in twice. They're not going to be always striking first They're not going to be other people make other people strike last They're not going to double pile in like lumenet. They're not going to trigger They're not going to reapers of vengeance where like this person fights and then five more units fight Like it's not that they play the fair normal version of the game. They just play it really well Right. They're very efficient. They're efficient. Yes. They are good at the basic block and tackle of the game right sure There you go. I don't agree that and so it's that kind of thing right so Ultimately, I think that ends up with a A much more balanced sort of and and approachable and competitive thing One, they'll be very friendly for new players, right because and this is how they were Exceptions. Yeah, what I'm honestly describing here is a return to form Okay, because when they first came out, this is kind of what they were Sure They were very point-efficient strong Capable units good there like retributors were real scary hammers and Everybody was on four ups to hit and they were on three ups Right and like liberators were really good defense when at the beginning, right? Right and These kinds of things were their their hallmarks and then time and the wide suite of abilities that have come out and all these other things It's not as much that they got a lot of people talk about power creep. It's not that they necessarily got power creep That's a little bit of that, but that's not as much They just got like Ability right the wide sweep of synergies and situations and things and tech and tech That's out there that they could run up against meant they were constantly running into potholes in the road more Right. Yep. And so what this would do is say, okay, we bring that basic functionality back up to meet all those things we overcompensate for the lack of tricks with efficiency Right. Yeah That's the and and yeah, I mean that's oh battalions like make them not garbage How about that that seems like a fun thing to do make battalions usable Would you tie keep battalions tied basically to chambers functionally how they are? Is like they're functionally already tied to chambers. Let me say it that way sure Sure, why not? Or oh, you know like yeah, okay I I would honestly keep the battalion abilities and storm cast like Weak but utilitous if I was going to design storm cast battalions Like if you said Vince, what's your perfect storm cast battalion look like? Okay It's three units one ability No, no quite the opposite. It's quite varied on the units that can be in it It's you know sort of chamber or functionally based, but you can have like wide numbers of them. Okay But it's ability that you get out of it is relatively weak and static Okay, in other words not a complicated thing and by any stretch of the imagination. Okay, and it is a relatively uh Yeah, a relatively weak and static thing, but they're varied in what can make up that battalion That makes sense. So you have a little more you can kind of construct the battalion They have a little bit better control over their drops and it handles a wider variety of units I think one of the great failings of cities of sigmar was the battalions and that they were so built on rails they were so bad and Storm cast have a horrible combination right now of dictated units and bad abilities What I'm saying is we can honestly keep like the printed ability of the battalion fairly Okay, like kind of mesh in many cases, right? But we allow like lots of different units in them and its main benefit is it's variable It controls your drops. It gives you an artifact. It gives you a command point all this stuff is useful And you get a you get a on a one to ten scale you get a nice five of a bank, right? It's a thing. Yeah, it's not garbage. I'm not saying hand out garbage, right? Not saying like every unit this battalion gets plus one inch to their move in the first turn of the game That's not what I'm saying, right? It doesn't need to be that okay and so Now that we have Like we've come to a point in aos where the designers have clearly gotten their heads around things like how these storm host concepts will work How allegiance abilities can be varied to create interesting play styles How the war scrolls can work how we can create interesting power pairs to make it So different units that ostensibly fill the same role will still get selected, right? We've seen the proof in this in the most in the past books right Yeah, and so by going that direction what I think you'll have happen is then Stormcast become very good, right? Like that is to say for what they are but are held back in a good way by the basic mechanics of the game, right? They hit harder than their points would normally allow but there's still only five of them So if they don't get the enemy unit down to four dudes, they don't take the point right, right and that kind of thing And so they have this natural balancing act, right where you feel like you're getting a good deal right Yep, because I I think probably somewhere in the I think stormcast armies probably end up often in the let's call it 35 to 50 model range Build a couple armies before this and obviously that depends a lot on you know, what your heroes are and Do you have things like star drakes or big point suckers in there or not, right? And that kind of stuff But let's call it 35 to 50 models on average it should stay there But you should get the weight out of those 35 to 50 models Yep There you will see a new stormcast book this summer Yes, I do. I really do And and I hope this is what it looks like because the reality is if we see a new You want my honest opinion they'll release a new storm cat. Well Before all this It would have been on the fifth anniversary. Their plan was to release it on July 4th I don't know that but if I was them, that's what I would do right like of course I would do that Right. Yeah, it's a marketing dream And it's been two years and it's been two years since that was released. Yes Yep. Now does the current situation interfere with that? Who knows? I don't know. None of us know what the world looks like I don't suspect anyone in that building knows what the world looks like because that's just you know, we're living in uncertain times here, right? right but to me This creates a good straightforward tension in the army where it's relatively easy to pick up It's relatively easy to build it still has a lot to discover because the What we mentioned of a minute to learn of the lifetime to master or whatever would come in learning how you can put power pairs of the different chambers together To get really interestingly efficient armies that have different balances of hammer anvil and mobility Yep, right. Yeah and That is what makes an army. It like stay compelling for a long time It's why people still constantly put different cities armies on the list Or sorry on the table, right? Yeah so uh Yeah, like that that to me just feels like the straightforward design and it requires no new models like this this rumor engine. We've had up the whole time Uh, probably is a is a new model His under stormcast model, but it might not be Could it be just like an underworld warband? Sure. Sure. Sure. Absolutely. It could be an underworld warband Or or something war cry specific or whatever, right? Yeah, who knows? uh But the only you know the weird thing to me about that that image. This is just bottom here. This is a complete non-cycler Yeah, uh Why is the ball one color? Is that weird? Do you Yeah, because it you think they're no shading Yeah, why is there no shading on the ball? It's very strange. All right. Could it be Because the ball haven't Maybe the ball had a logo in it And they had to like photoshop the little like you know what I'm saying? I can have no shadow like if you look at the center of it There's darkened shadow from the you can do that with a little quick photoshop touch up real easy. I don't know just a thought Yeah, uh I don't know is the answer. I don't know why it is the way that it is Other than like maybe it's uh some type of material Maybe it's a is right or something like that although you'd expect more variation even in the paint job It just looks very flat. It doesn't look like gem color over metal or anything, right? Because that which might you might think what it is at any rate um Anything else what did I miss anything? Did I did I did I do it? Have we solved it? Have we solved stormcast? I mean, I think that that would make stormcast eminently playable It would it would be a johnny's dream to run all the numbers to try to find the right combination of chambers and you know Abilities and and storm host and all that stuff. Um I don't know. I think that it I think it would make him regardless of of how that lands. I think it would make them eminently interesting Yeah To me this just feels like the right answer. So I hope if this book isn't already done That listen to this. Hey there gw. It is about this It is Like it has to be because if it if it was on track to be released in july, it's done Maybe who knows? Maybe it maybe it wasn't maybe it's back farther Maybe this all maybe this gives them a chance to take another crack at it. Maybe hopefully they thought of the same thing Say what I said, maybe they thought of the same thing And that's my hope is that sam or whoever got a hold of it like it's Like they they were thinking along these same kind of design lines. That's that's my hope Okay So at any rate that storm cast have you got ideas? Uh for yourself like again, you notice I talked about very few abilities because One of the challenges when you talk about fixing a thing is that everybody wants to run to the last step And like one of the last steps is going. Okay on this one ability What abilities do we have that you that's like 10 steps down the line? You got to set all this other stuff in place first Yeah, when you start piecemealing things Right, what happens is you get into problems. Yeah, you can't bottom up this design You've got to start from these principles and work your way down through The concepts, but I would love to hear your ideas Do you agree with what I said what we talked about? Do you like this idea? Do you hate this idea? Do you think it would make storm cast playable drop that down in the comments? Talk about it. Share your own ideas. Uh, I would love to see them At any rate also as per usual, uh, do hit the like button I thank you everybody who hit like before I appreciate that there's still a lot more people hit that like button Let's show the people who gave us the dislikes for even discussing storm cast at the beginning That uh, we can still have a fun discussion even if I know not everybody loves storm cast and that's okay You don't have to love them Not at all, but they're here and there's a statue Out front of gw that they're not going anywhere And I would love them to actually be a fun army that new players can play and have a good time with And that we're all happy to see show up on the table across from us even if we don't like them Right, even if we don't have the desire to collect them I'd like them to be a fun army to play against and what I've described here sounds to me Like a fun army to play against so There you go. So there you go folks, uh, thank you very much for for listening for watching We certainly appreciate it very much tom. Good time as always sir There you go Don't forget, uh, we'll do the show This saturday after the reveal show So after the reveal after gw does their reveal show will be on live right afterward doing our reveal reaction So tune in then on saturday It'll probably be assuming they do another hour and a half My guess is it'll be 11 a.m Is when we'll probably do it Maybe a little earlier depending on how fast they wrap up if they wrap up again like last time it'll be 10 30 They're not exactly real regular with this stuff. So it's hard to plan So at any rate, thank you very much everybody for watching. We really appreciate it And as always, we'll see you next wednesday