 Excellent. We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. So welcome back to the next episode, episode 131 of The Therapy Show behind closed doors with myself Jackie Jones and the wonderful Mr Bob Cook. And what we're going to be talking about this week is are some feelings more acceptable than others in the therapy room? Oh, what a wonderful topic. And when you said 131, it was like counting down to Christmas. Yes. Yeah. We're nearly the Christmas. We're going to get there and we used to count down at Christmas. So when you said 131, that's what even mind me off. My grandson does that. How many more sleeps is it? He asks, he works it out by how many sleeps are left? I don't know how many sleeps are to the podcast we're doing, but 131 is a good topic. Good, sorry, good number as is this topic. Yes. Are some feelings more acceptable than others in the therapy room? What do you think? I'd like to say no. Okay. Well, that's it. That's the end of the podcast. That's it. Until next time. Yeah, I think it's no and yes. Yeah, me too. That's why there was a long pause after it because I'm saying I'd like to think no, but I'm sure that there are ones where I'm thinking yes. Okay. So I'm a developmental psychotherapist as you all know. So I always think, always think about how the past informs the present. Yeah. How our script gets paid out in the present. And it's the same here. Yes. So when you were brought up Jackie, were the feelings which were more acceptable than others? Yes. A display to express. There was pretty much one that was okay to show and that was happy. Anything else wasn't that good. Yes. So in your household, so well in my house, I certainly what could not be shown his anger at all. And fear was another one that I wasn't okay to show. So, so you would have got recognition for so if this is right, I don't make assumption, but recognition for showing or expressing certain feelings, but not others. Absolutely. Yeah. And that was the same for me as well. Yeah. I think it's the same for most people. Yeah. And therefore, I think therapist themselves have their own scripts. Now, they don't quite, you know, quite a bit of therapy themselves. But still, I think if you've been programmed a certain way, then unconsciously, you may promote certain feelings and not others. Yeah. According to the script and the same for clients who come in. An interesting thing I always thought about as a therapist, is what emotions were missing from the clients repertoire if you like. Yeah. So if they were always happy, I'd always think, oh, other emotions have gone. Now, very, very rarely was that the case. But if it was, it nearly also, of course, was a defense systems. If somebody was angry all the time, they know what's happened to sadness and fear and XXX. So, and I'd usually pointed out to clients, by the way, whereas I understand the way you're expressing some of these feelings. And I've been thinking about maybe some are missing emotions here. Yeah. I sometimes get the feeling with clients, not all clients, but some clients. I get a sense that they're angry or frustrated, but I'm not seeing it. So I will quite often ask a client in the early days, if you get angry at me, how will I know? Good question. Because I think it's a situation where I'm not sure if they would authentically show me anger or regression. So, yeah. And let's take that as an example. And it's a very common one that you're talking about that. The clients have usually programmed themselves through their own script to not express the anger or aggression that you're talking about because it's not being the way, you know, it's being how the family or origin or significant people have scripted them. So then when they come to see you, they're following that script. Yeah. That's very common, what you're talking about. And of course, you know, a really important question to ask clients is, what was the common feeling that you could express when you're uncharted? And they'll say X. So then you know that B was not only not allowed, but you probably wouldn't see it in the therapy room. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, again, what I do is to let them know that, you know, all emotions are okay. All feelings are okay. It's what we do with them that can sometimes cause problems. For me, anger is a really good emotion because it motivates me to make a change. You know, so again, talking about different emotions and how we can express them and what they can do, I think helps clients. You're absolutely right. Full stop. Oh, I was waiting for a but then. And I think most, most clients project onto their therapist. Some sort of important caretaker figure. So their permissions or what they think and feel so important to the client. So they often project onto the therapist. Well, this is not acceptable. Yeah. So if you ask most clients, well, you can experiment with it and say, oh, we could even talk about now probably better. How many clients actually express anger towards you or express frustration, anger, irritability with the therapist? I probably will say not many at the beginning. Yeah. Maybe as they feel safer, they dare to. And then you talk to many clients have been out there in their therapy journey saying, well, I never did. Yeah. So when you talk about what's acceptable, it's too positive. One is what the clients projects onto the therapist as what is acceptable or not is often X. And then therapist's own history, which unconsciously plays out around what's acceptable or not acceptable. Yeah. Two sides to it. Yeah. It's a really interesting conversation to explore personally, you know, outside of the therapy room. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You take Christmas, for example. So different therapists take Christmas different ways. So not many therapists work on Christmas Day. Yeah. And many therapists work up to Christmas Eve and may even come back in between Christmas and New Year. But you might get some therapist to expect their clients or get unhappy actually, if the clients are not joyful over Christmas. Interesting. I'll tell you why that is. And it's often modelled that way. In other words, when the client goes into that type of therapist's room, they'll be 10 to one. There'll be Christmas decorations up. There'll be, I won't say far as a Christmas tree, but there'll be certainly a lot of jewellery. And they will probably, if you explore further into the therapist's history, they probably have had Christmases where jewellery and decorations and everything else was the norm. In fact, dictated that way. Yeah. So they don't expect their clients. Then you get some therapists who have the opposite types of Christmases. So they don't have any decorations up. They don't expect their clients at all to be happy. And they are then exploring what Christmas meant for them because they expect and project onto the clients that they had a miserable time of Christmas. Again, it just never ceases to amaze me how the different layers that there are with all of us, you know what I mean, that you don't even pay attention to. My personal history around Christmas, my mum, she's in her 80s bless her and she doesn't like Christmas. There we are. Yeah. Her favourite saying is something bad always happens at Christmas. And I once asked her, how many Christmases have you had that have been bad? And her answer was, I can remember this one. And it's like one out of 80 of Christmases was a bad one. And yet it's overshadowed every other Christmas that she's ever had. So our history. Yeah. Script that takes how we are around Christmas. Yeah. And often it's the same with feelings. Our scripted takes as therapists and as clients as what we see acceptable in terms of expression of feelings in our history. Yeah. Now, I hope, you know... Because they're all so sorry, Rob, for butting it. That when a certain feeling is expressed that we feel compelled or the urge to respond in a certain way as well. Because of our past. Yes. That if somebody's upset or scared or angry, whatever it is, that again, because of our own scripted stuff, that we feel compelled to respond or react in a certain way. Yeah. I think most therapists are people who come to be therapists, social workers, probation workers. They come from often a compulsive rescuing place and they need to have their own therapy to reflect on that and at least understand that. So they don't spontaneously be driven by their own history. Yeah. Which again is something that I check in with clients. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Otherwise the sorts of feelings, the sorts of feelings that they would see compulsive caretakers or what I've just talked about here, would almost, how can I put this, be looking for what is acceptable is the real angst, you know, what's hidden behind the sort of happiness or facade or whatever it is. It could be really after feelings, which perhaps sadness, fear, anger, et cetera. But they may in that search, by the way, and not consciously, not consciously, and this isn't always happy the case anyway, doesn't give permission for the client to actually be joyful or happy because those things are not what the person that they're searching or, you know, encourage the client to get to. Yeah. Which again is really interesting, Bob, because the emotions that we all have, but you wouldn't maybe expect a therapy session to be joyful and humorous and enjoyable. There's a certain, you know, thought that it needs to be deep and dark and meaningful and every conversation has to take us to somewhere. That's right. And that's, you're perfectly correct. I don't know the percentage of people who came through my doors had traumatic histories, but probably most difficult times. And so I can understand that. Oh, picture you've just painted. And at the same time, to not give permissions for the client to come out of the toilet bowl for a year once. I love that phrase. See the light and spread, you know, to feel the sun on their backs. Yeah. The great shame. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Again, it's a really interesting topic that, you know, would they feel like they've got the money's worth if they haven't gone to those toilet bowl places? I don't know. I think it's okay going there. I'm not saying don't go there because most clients have had difficult histories. So I understand that. However, if the therapist, you know, unconditioned, I'm sorry, unconsciously or whatever it is, keeps the client too long in those places. Yeah. I don't think there's much, there's not much space for relief. And for, there may not be a permission for the client to take a break or to see the daylight. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that would be a shame because it would mean there'd be no lightness. The clients wouldn't feel the sun on their backs either. Yeah. There will always be that sort of intensity to the therapy sessions, which in one way I understand, and another way I always like to bring some lightness or idea to the therapy sessions I have with clients. So it would start, if it was a group, always start the group with good news. Yeah. Something good, individually the same actually. Yeah. So even though we go to intense places, I'd always be thinking around, well, let's make sure there's some lightness here somewhere. And sometimes there may not be the space for that, and that's all right. And we still need to promote, I think, the exploration of joy somewhere in this. Yeah. Yeah, because to be a well-rounded human being, we've got to be able to express the whole rafter of emotions. Like you touched on it earlier on about giving our clients permission to explore them all. And for some clients, it potentially is a safe space for them to explore and to try out emotions that maybe they've not been able to show in other places. I can remember in our training, and when we were doing role-play or whatever it is, that people, I've done it with clients myself, but they've thrown a cushion up the corridor and, you know, I've fired them up even to let go of whatever it is that they're holding on to. No. Yeah, look, what you've just said I totally agree with. I mean, that's why a successful focus has to provide that safe harbor. Yeah. Otherwise, there's no way for a person to experiment or to feel safe with expressing some of these feelings that they were perhaps never allowed to express and to have a weak corrective experience is so important. No. Which again kind of links into the importance of therapists having their own therapy to work through whatever it is that they, because we've all got a past, you know, and if somebody's showing anger or frustration brings up something for us as therapists, then we need to be able to work through that. I agree with you, definitely. Emotions are complicated and deep-rooted and what we feel is acceptable to show and not, you know, and then it goes into, for me, that whole realm of guilt and shame when we do show certain emotions that are out of our script or comfort zone. Yeah, you're right. And my wife would, I don't know what you say for the next sentence I'm going to say. I know my daughter would say, but I watch a lot of reality TV programs and people say, why do you watch these, Bob? I mean, the most, let's say, they're the most facile things and you're supporting this and you're supporting that. That's all true at one level. Maybe equally important to guilty pleasure by mind. But what I like about watching all these things is exactly what we're talking about here. And that is how the scripts are played out and enacted out with a collection of, you know, people. Now, there might be elected collection of people and it's interesting. Now, that makes sense because that's why I'm a therapist. The problem with it is some of the political stuff I don't really agree with at all, so I shouldn't really support watching of these things. A therapeutic point of view and curiosity and why I became a therapist, it all makes sense. But you will see on those programs exactly what you just talked about here. And that is what they feel they're allowed to express and what they feel they aren't allowed to express and what feelings are in inverted commas okay and what feelings aren't inverted commas okay. So they're fascinating programs to watch from that point of view. I should, I was a politics lecturer at one time in my life so really I shouldn't watch half of them. So people who are listening to this podcast please just forgive me on that sense. I think it's good. I can remember when I was going through my training looking at particularly the soaps and you know looking at like a drama triangle and who was the rescuer and who was the persecutor and the really good, you know as a people watching experiment to work out different ego states and everything. I was before a chemotherapist anyway I was always a people watcher. Yeah. And I really, from a point of view for lots of reasons by the way but not just perhaps our psychotropic ones but I always you know got very curious I think. I've always been very curious which is I think a very good quality for therapists to have. Yeah. I think for me as well with feelings you know one of my personality types is that I'm a bit paranoid so it's really important for me to be able to work out what people are feeling to know whether it's safe or not safe in certain situations. So I've got a bit of a radar sometimes with you know if a person's not being congruent with what they're feeling and what they're showing body language wise. So I think sometimes I can challenge my clients on I'm getting a sense that you're feeling X, Y or Z but I'm not seeing that what's going on. Yeah. Yeah well that's a good, that's a good gift to have. Sometimes. Well I was always a bit but I think it's useful for you to be able to call on that. Yeah. Yeah. It just opens up another topic of conversation in the therapy room I think around feelings and what's acceptable and what's not. I think they're marvellous discussions to have and if you don't have them it's a shame so that's great. Yeah. Well Bob thank you for that. What we're going to be looking at next time is working with parental interjects in the therapy room. So we've worked at Pound, we've done a podcast on the Pound interview, we've done a podcast on, we've done a podcast in this probably not, even if we haven't it's a really good one to talk about. Yes. Well you know as a... Well we might change our minds before then Bob knowing you. Thank you for all these titles and this that the other. You know and I probably say it's a hundred times so there we go but I think a lot of this, a lot of all the things we talk about may, does or may go back to scripts and how they're enacted out in the present. So I am a great believer in script theory which is again what we're talking about here and we will be talking about the next one. We are stepping back from that. It is a really, really important podcast so I do I do hope people come and listen to us. As we head to Christmas. Yes. Talking about parental interjects, what about Father Christmas? Well there you go. You always say that that's part of therapy indeed. What sort of parental interject do we have around Father Christmas? Interesting. That's in my big white beard. Yes, yes, definitely. We might need to wear hats on the run up to Christmas Bob. Until next time. Yeah, bye bye. Bye. With another episode.