 Good evening everybody. My name is Ted Kenny. I am an assistant attorney general with the division that represents the Agency of Human Services. So that is basically a lot of the services that the state government provides. Department of Mental Health, Department of Health, Department of Health, Access, Aging, Independent Living, DCF, Economic Services. So anyway, that is my job. Before that, I was in private practice. I started my practice in Richmond, Vermont in 1991. You may be able to see when I'm on the screen that it says Kenny Law offices behind me. That's because I'm in my home office in Williston and that's the sign that I had in front of my office in Richmond. So anyway, so the topic tonight is understanding state government and I will forego any jokes. I couldn't think of any basically going on how maybe nobody really knows, nobody does understand state government, but we're going to do our best. So that's the topic and what are our goals tonight? Our goals are to gain an understanding of how Vermont state government is organized and learn how to access state government. If we can do that, I think that we've got a pretty good understanding of what the state government is and what it does. So I'm going to start out with a cautionary tale and these are actually more in the form of cautionary tale questions. The first one is a resident asks a town select board member or city council member and the person is contacted about increasing the minimum wage or dealing with gun control or universal health care. The second is a voter asks a state legislator or the governor and I messed up my grammar on this question so I apologize to stop the placement of a new building or in your town or city. So the question is should you ask these people these questions? The answer is no. The reason for that is the way that the Vermont government is divided. Vermont towns and cities have no authority to pass laws and by the way when a town or a city passes a law it's called an ordinance as opposed to a statute which is what the legislature passes but they have no authority to pass laws or ordinances that govern things like minimum wage or gun safety or health care coverage and likewise the legislature and the governor have no authority over zoning and development issues. So let's get into a little bit about why that is. Vermont is a Dillon's rule state that comes from a decision from the early 1800s actually not in Vermont. I think Dillon was a supreme court justice in Nebraska but in any event this has become kind of a term of art. If you say Dillon's rule everybody who does this kind of law knows what that is. I'm a member of the select board in the town of Williston and about a year ago we had people telling us you can't do that because this is a Dillon's rule state and they were right. Vermont cities and towns receive all of their legal authority from the Vermont legislature. They are entirely creatures of the legislature. They are what's known as municipal corporations and they're not corporations like General Motors or something but they are in the sense that they are their own government their own legal entity they can sue and be sued they can own land they they can do a lot of things like that but they can only do those things because they have the legal authority that was granted to them from the Vermont legislature and cities and towns can only exercise power if that power is granted and expressed words by the legislature necessarily or fairly implied in or incident to the powers expressly granted meaning it's obvious that it didn't say that they can do this but the law wouldn't make sense if they couldn't so obviously they can and third those essential to the declared objects and purposes of the town or city. So basically the deal is though if it's if it's not in the law that creates the the law that creates the town or city then just assume it's the town or city doesn't have that authority. So what are the general powers of cities and towns in the state of Vermont? What they can do they can enact zoning laws what kind of activities what kind of buildings can go on what land whether you can put a gas station in a residential neighborhood or whether you can put a farm in the middle of downtown Burlington that the the town or city has the ability to create laws that govern that they can impose a property tax which for a very long time was the only way that municipalities could gain revenue. They can also nowadays impose a local sales tax if the state legislature approves and they can provide services like police fire ambulance recreational and of course they take care of town roads city roads and bridges the the fact that they have to have the legislature grant that authority can be a real sticking point and I'll talk about that in a second what what they cannot do towns or cities cannot enact their own or change the state's criminal laws so if by way of example if the city the city of Burlington wanted to create a law that said that it is a crime to possess a handgun or to do this or that or that it's no longer a crime to have small quantities of cocaine would they be able to do that the answer is no criminal laws are the exclusive jurisdiction of the state government not a town or city they they also cannot impose an income tax and again they can impose a local sales tax but they can't do it without state permission when I was in college I went to St. Michael's and I was a journalism major and one of the things that I commonly did was for the radio news program that we had that was part of the school I would cover press conferences so I would go to Montpelier and I would cover Governor Madeleine Cunan's press conferences and I'd go to Burlington and I would cover Mayor Bernie Sanders's press conference and I one of my most vivid recollections was when Bernie was very upset that the legislature was not allowing Burlington to impose a sales tax because back then no city or town was allowed to do that and it's not the case now now the legislature will grant that power but back then it never did and I have a very distinct recollection of being in the mayor's office with all the other media and Bernie getting more and more angry and saying things like to our friends in the legislature where were you when and that's he kept it to our friends in the legislature and it eventually that did happen but I don't think Bernie helped himself by being as the way that he was but that's been an issue in the state for a long time now towns and cities are allowed to pass a 1% sales tax on goods and rooms and meals and that's going to be a substantial amount of money but they have to share that with the state too so anyway but at least at least it is a revenue source so all of that begs the question of what do you what do you do if you have an issue like the ones that I was just talking about where they can do something so the question the the the answer is you contact your town or city government with issues concerning things like fire or ambulance or police services and that would be in general that you think they should have another ambulance or there should be a fire station or an outpost in your neighborhood or there shouldn't be that would be something you would call the town or city either the executive which in barlington would be a mayor uh or uh in most towns and cities there's a city or a town manager or your select board member or your city counselor now that said obviously for emergencies on these things you don't call any of those people you call 911 um you would also contact town or city government officials for things about the property tax or property uses yours and others so by way of example if you wanted to put an addition on the house or you were upset that your neighbor was building an addition on theirs and it looks like they didn't have the right that it just seemed wrong they didn't have the right permits for it or something that would be something you would call the town or city government over you would never call the state on that because they wouldn't care because they don't have any power over these things um parks and recreational services same thing you'd want to contact the town or city on those kinds of things if you think the uh baseball field you know garbage cans need to be emptied more or there are dogs running around on the soccer field or there should be more swing sets in a in a park those are things that are going to be handled by the town government or city government not the state government um property taxes property tax payments property tax rates things like that an appeal if the if you own a house and they they appraise it and say it's worth this much so this is what your property tax is going to be and you think that they they appraised it wrong um those would be things that you would contact your town or city government uh over um other things things like noise complaints um those are almost always in the purview of the town or city uh if it's really bad you know like a criminal type noise then you know you might want to call the police on that um but just in general uh that would be something you would contact the uh the town or city government for um also something that that comes up uh a lot um but I think people don't understand is is dog and animal complaints um a city council or a select board in Vermont actually has the authority the legislature gave it the authority um to decide uh complaints on dogs and animals and and most most ordinances that towns have talk about dog bites or animal attacks um and that that can I've as a select board member in Williston and as a lawyer before I was in the attorney general's office in private practice I've actually had to deal with this issue where people came to my select board because a dog attacked a neighbor um and the neighbors were saying either muzzle this dog put it down or make it leave the town um likewise I've represented people in front of uh town governments when they've been attacked by dogs uh and it's almost by the way it's almost always people who it's the second or third time the dog has attacked somebody and they're very irresponsible um well the select board or the city council has the authority to do a lot including actually euthanize the animal um uh and I've never seen that but I have seen the law actually allows uh the the town government to ban the the animal from town like something you know get out of Dodge City you know in the old west or something like that which is I think kind of a throwback um one one thing on this issue if anybody's interested in in an issue that probably isn't a burning issue but could be sorry um my phone was on um was the um a lot of town and city ordinances on this issue are written so that the animal attack has to happen on or off of the dog's property um and these days uh that we changed that in Williston and I would recommend if anybody has the interest to bring this to other people's attention that they change it in in their town or city as well because uh these days a lot of times you know not many people have picket fences or stockade fencing around their property and uh you know it's pretty easy to walk across somebody else's lawn um you know it's that the town government should have authority over things like that uh and most of them don't but they could if they just change their ordinance but it's something that just kind of slips through the cracks I experience this when a an ordinance in Heinzberg actually was written in a way where the Heinzberg select board couldn't do anything about a really terrible dog attack uh a dog that was owned by extremely irresponsible people anyway just that something else people should know um public schools are run by school districts and school districts are actually their own governments um they are separate from the town or city that they are in so um by way of example the uh in my town the town of Williston uh before mergers used to happen I was actually on the Williston select the Williston school board the Williston school district was its own government um it is not under the control of the town uh it it has its own budget it has its own taxing authority and that's true with now the unified school districts that we have uh including the one that would cover Burlington um so the city council and the and the mayor's office um they may have influence and they might be able to do some things around the edges but in terms of school policy uh that is that is the school board that uh is its own government and again that's a government that was created by the legislature so you'd contact the school or school board for things like obviously issues with your child or a student um educational property taxes which is actually the bulk of property tax payments in the state of Vermont um most property the property taxes that you pay the vast majority of that amount actually is going toward the schools um not not municipal government um municipal government is actually not nearly as expensive because their expenses aren't nearly as big as the schools they don't have the town government doesn't have to pay teachers it doesn't have to heat three buildings it does have to heat some buildings um doesn't have to run school buses uh it doesn't have to do special ed uh programming that is never paid for adequately by the feds um it doesn't have to do any of that stuff and the schools do so your property taxes mainly go not not in like 90 percent but most of it goes to the school government um also if you wanted to uh complain or or take issue with a school sport where you know if you wanted the school to have this sport or not have this sport or there's a mascot there's been a movement in Vermont to get rid of mascots that are racially insensitive those those are things that a school board deals with not a city council or a select board um likewise extracurricular activities uh things like that um in the school's equity include and inclusion issues that would be something that the school board would deal with not a city government uh and of course curriculum and academic courses would be something that would be handled by the school government not the town or city government before i move on i do want to say something about the county county governments in Vermont county governments in Vermont have almost no power at all very different than most of the rest of the country um in most of the rest of the country the county government has a significant role to play in what we have as municipal services roads law enforcement things like that but in chitin in in Vermont and like by chitin in county any county there are really very few elected officials in county government one is the prosecutor the state's attorney is a county employee the other is a sheriff and third is the assistant judges but even even those budgets the state's attorneys and sheriffs are actually run out of a state agency the department department of state's attorneys and sheriffs or sheriffs and state's attorneys so the county government it would be almost nothing uh that stuff and by the way interestingly enough the biden administration's payments to municipal governments under the american rescue plan um there's a there's a snag right now because the federal government doesn't understand that vermont's counties actually don't do anything and they the law is designed to funnel money into municipal governments starting with counties um and so our congressional delegation and other people are trying to fix that to make sure and they will but it's it's something that they have to make sure that doesn't get held up because otherwise you know the feds would try to pay money stimulus money to the county government the county government would say that's great but we don't have anything to spend it on we don't own any roads we don't run the police departments we don't run the fire departments we don't have rec we don't have social programs anyway county governments have a very limited role in vermont state governance so that that brings us to vermont state government there's a kind of basic but let's start with the basics um there are three branches of government uh in vermont uh and pretty much every other state there's the legislative branch the executive branch and the judicial branch the legislative branch in vermont as sandy knows having been a member of it is called the general assembly the general assembly is composed of two houses the house of representatives in the state senate they uh both have to pass laws and go to the executive branch the executive branch is basically run by the governor um and it has many state agencies and i'll get into those in a slide coming up uh but it's uh the agency that actually executes the law that the legislature puts in and and runs the budget that the legislature approves the third branch the judicial branch is the branch that interprets the laws and when we say interpret it means uh it can not only interpret it but can actually overrule laws if they are unconstitutional because that would mean that the judiciary is interpreting the constitution either the state constitution or the federal constitution in vermont there are two levels of of court there's the vermont supreme court and under that is the vermont superior court the courts changed about 10 or 15 years ago maybe a little bit less than that uh where there used to be um a superior court and district court and on and on and they just made that into one thing as the vermont superior court with different divisions that basically do what the old system did there's the civil division the probate division the criminal division and the family division and i will get into where you bring your case and where you should go if you have a problem that you need to go to court over the legislature in vermont the members of the legislature both state senators and house members are elected to just two year terms also the legislature in vermont is uh part time it meets for about half the year which i think is a good thing uh because uh it keeps people close to the voters and make sure that we don't have legislators who are more interested in keeping their jobs uh than uh doing the right thing um the state senate is comprised of 30 state senators uh each represents about 20,300 people in the state of vermont they're broken down mainly by county but not completely um the the senate districts are named after the counties where most of their district is but they're actually generally different districts than that um in the house there are 150 members of the house and uh so each of those house members represents about 4,100 people by way of example the town of williston has about 10,000 people and we have two uh members in the house members of the house and members of the senate are elected at uh at large in their district and that means that everybody in williston votes for two members of the house and um the top two vote getters win it's not like the people on the west side of town have one person and the person on the east side of town have another person if you're in a house district or a senate district then that is the um uh uh then then you vote for everybody that way okay so what does the legislature do what power does it have the legislature is empowered to make law and that's subject to the governor's power to veto a bill and it would be subject to the supreme court deciding that what they did was unconstitutional but it is a massive power and what i mean by law is the legislature can pass all laws um and they can decide what is or is not a crime um they can decide the income tax and sales tax rates in the state the legislature decides the social service spending in the budgets it decides the policies governing how those services are provided um it only the legislature can amend the state constitution which is the ultimate law in the state although federal law always trumps state law uh that was determined a hundred percent with the conclusion of the american civil war where the feds the union won and states have their rights but not uh they don't ever trump the federal uh uh law by the way that that even applies to federal regulations um so if a regulation is created by the federal government and it's in contradiction to a state statute that the legislature passed the federal regulation wins the feds always win um the legislature always has uh also has the power to decide what a town or city can do use for its powers um as i was talking about with the sales tax that was something new um there are other things that uh the legislature will there's a process that the towns and cities go through to to amend what they can and cannot do or ask the legislature um and it's called a charter change each town or each city's laws that the legislature legislature creates these uh is called a charter and um they specifically say you know the city of berlington is allowed to do this the they're more fancy and legal than that but that's the idea the town of milton can now impose a sales tax or whatever um the governor can stop the legislature's laws from coming into effect if he vetoes he or she vetoes the uh the law um that would send it back to the uh legislature but the legislature can have the final say um the governor's veto can be overridden by a two-thirds majority in favor of overriding but that has to be two-thirds in each house both the senate and the house uh not cumulatively but you count the votes in each uh chamber and if two-thirds override it then that's the way it is i think the most famous example of that in verand was when govern governor jim douglas uh vetoed um the gay marriage uh law and it went back to the legislature and the legislature overrode his veto and it became law anyway even though the governor didn't sign it the um executive branch is a big uh a big endeavor um it is run by the governor uh but the governor is not the executive branch the governor is just in charge of the executive branch the executive branch is broken down into a whole bunch of agencies and i put them in this chart because i wanted people to see that um it is pretty inclusive and uh you know covers basically a wide swath of swath of of things um so agencies like commerce and community development are trying to um as it says basically bring uh business hopefully socially conscious businesses uh to the state and foster community development uh at the same time agency transportation the biggest thing people usually think of is the interstates those are uh kept up and and maintained by the agency of transportation but the agency of transportation also has the department of motor vehicles in it so if you if you had a problem with your license it's the dmv but that's under the agency of transportation and actually i have agency of transportation in there twice sorry about that there's only one um agency of natural resources is in charge of protecting the natural resources of the state um they often will bring uh cases against people who are violating a state law or their own growth permit um by you know discharging you know water where they shouldn't or building where they shouldn't or building on a wet land when they shouldn't do that a lot of that is going to be handled by the agency of natural resources um agency of agriculture food and markets is really just mainly in charge of agricultural endeavors in the state to try to help farms and farms these days is i'm sure you all know aren't just dairy farms there's all different kinds of agriculture out there maple syrup actually would be part of part of that the agency of education is in charge of obviously educational quality in the state although a lot of that is handled at the local level by the school board agency of digital services is actually just the computer the people who run the computer system for the state um that is its own agency now and the last one is the agency of human services and that that is that is huge um that includes the department of mental health the department of disabilities aging and independent living they're in charge of making sure that people are safe in nursing homes uh they're also in charge of providing a public guardian for uh adults who don't have anybody else to run a disabled adult who would not be able to run their their affairs they have a lot to do department of corrections um uh is actually part of the agency of human services that was the idea was that uh that would make it a better chance for it to be rehabilitative um uh i'll i'll leave it to people in their own opinion whether that worked or not um department of health the department of health has been a very busy in last year with uh the pandemic um department of remote health access basically runs things like uh the state equivalent of obama care um and uh things like that so if you are looking to access health uh health care in vermont it would be the department of health access the last one is the department for children and families um i actually did a seminar for sandi in this program about a year ago i think um outlining what powers the department for children and families have but their their charter is to make sure that people who are children who are in need of care or supervision because they've been either neglected or abused are not neglected or abused their their goal is to keep children in the family um a lot of times they're successful with that sometimes they're not and obviously there's always going to be a debate whether they didn't do enough or went too far it's a it's a very it's a very difficult job the executive branch the executive branch the governor is also elected to a two-year term that's actually a anomaly in the united states most governors are elected to a four-year term the governor has the power to veto legislation that i went into before if he or she doesn't like the law they can veto it and then it'll then it does not become law unless the legislature overrides by two-thirds vote in each house the executive branch also the governor appoints the agencies agency secretaries and departmental directors these are the people who actually manage the government so that's that's a pretty important thing and the governor administers the laws and the budget to the legislature passes another thing that i actually didn't put on here is that the the governor actually also appoints judges that have to be confirmed by the state senate but he does have the authority here she has the authority to appoint judges the governor has to pick though from a list that a panel creates and so that that is kind of a limited power and people may remember that when governor dean was governor uh the that panel forwarded two names to the governor to fill a supreme court justice position and uh they were actually associate justices on the supreme court already and this would one of them would have become chief justice said the governor had governor dean done that but governor dean didn't want either of those people to become the chief justice so he said no and he sent it back and said come up with a different list of names and i don't know what happened if there was uh conversations on the side or something but that's how um attorney general jeffrey amistoy went on to become the chief justice of the vermont supreme court um and that's how uh uh governor dean's administration secretary bill sorrell was appointed to be the attorney general um i think i think governor dean wanted bill sorrell to be a supreme court justice and um that didn't work so he had him become attorney general and then bill sorrell was the attorney general for a very long time i think he has the record or something so who do you contact in state government and and the answer is it's it's a big thing so my answer is go to the state government website um i i did put down though one major thing in case people need assistance and that's um benefit programs are actually run by dcf it's a different section of dcf than the people who are in charge of family services um so if you went to dcf dot vermont dot gov back slash benefits and you could just google benefit programs vermont government and you get there anyway but they they cover things like food assistance um which is now called three squares vermont um in the 70s and early 80s it was called food stamps um they help with crisis fuel if people have run out of fuel and they don't have the money to pay for more fuel oil or whatever they're using um they can get uh they can get a payment if they qualify for from the state government for that as an emergency um the state actually has an emergency assistance program if people need money because they are about to have their lights turned off or something like that as well so again dcf dot vermont dot gov back slash benefits for that housing assistance is this section of dcf that actually was um uh financing the homeless people that were sheltered in motels and hotels in vermont while the pandemic was raging um and that that was actually part of the housing assistance program um reach up uh which used to be called welfare um that that program is covered in this as well and weatherization if you have an old house that is uh you know leaking a lot of air and you're losing a lot of heat um this this they have actually programs that will help you pay to weatherize your house so that you can save uh energy and save money and stay warmer so um dcf dot vermont dot gov back slash benefits so these last slides uh I have are about the judicial system and the the question is which court do you go to um say another and I've I've actually seen this as a lawyer I've seen people do do this wrong um I've seen people show up in uh Costello courthouse in burlington when they should have gone to the superior court on main street across from nectars um and you know file things in the wrong court so let's go through it the family division um none of this is going to come as a surprise but the family division is where one would go to deal with a divorce or parentage parentage is if you're not married but you have a child with somebody um the family division has the jurisdiction and the authority to decide um who's going to have legal and physical custody of that child what visitation is going to look like um family division also will deal with child support whether it was a divorce or whether it was parentage a family division will also deal with abuse prevention but I want to be clear about that it is abuse prevention for things that happen either within a family spouses uh or people who are um had a dating relationship uh brothers and sisters um a sexual relationship or lived lived in the same uh residents then then the family division has power over abuse prevention cases it does not have power over jurisdiction for abuse prevention cases for uh bad things that are happening that are not related to a family so by way of example if you are working somewhere and some customer with a mental health issue that you're not married to or related to starts stalking you or threatening you um you would not go to the family division to get an abuse prevention order you would go to civil division I'll cover that in a minute but that that's an important distinction because people can get that wrong um and there are forms online uh to fill out or if you can't do that then there are forms at the courthouse that you can just go to um the family division also deals with some mental health cases um involuntary commitment involuntary medication um things like that um those are usually brought by the state government uh but you can bring those as a private citizen as well um obviously with the right kind of evidence and the right kind of expert witnesses and things like that probate division probate division deals with uh will's trust and estates so uh you know when you pass on if you have a will it would go to the probate division and the probate division makes sure uh through making it through reports that it receives from the people running the estate that what happened in the will uh what was written in the will is what happened in the estate wills are kind of like computer programs um they you you have to obey them and you know whatever the instruction is that's what you have to do um they'll also deal with guardianships for disabled adults and guardianships for for children I should have put that in um because you can get a guardianship in uh for a child in that and there are actually contested guardianships over children and I've been in contested guardianships for disabled adults where more than one person comes forward to try to become the guardian for somebody who is developmentally disabled but that's uh that's where you would go is probate division for that um probate division also deals with name changes if you wanted to change your name either first or last name it's the probate court that has the legal authority to say okay this is now your legal name whatever it is um it does have some child related uh cases actually did cover guardianships up there a second ago but um there is such a thing as a private termination of parental rights um it's rare as hen's teeth uh but the probate division does have uh that authority and um I've seen those cases they're just not very often usually a termination of parental rights case would be because there's an abuse or neglect case uh in uh the regular family division finishing it up the civil division uh in burlington that would be as I said the superior court across from nectars um that uh that deals with personal injury cases if you've been injured in a car accident and uh you can't get the case settled that would be where you would bring your case or probably your lawyer would bring the cases in civil division um and then just general things breach of contract uh somebody agrees to paint your house for three thousand dollars or five thousand whatever it is um and they don't um you would sue them in civil division um as I indicated before non-family abuse prevention cases so uh stalking um uh threats of sexual violence uh from people who are not in a relationship uh would be handled in civil division as well boundary disputes um if somebody thinks they own this parcel of land but somebody else says no the boundary is six feet over and whatever uh I've had those cases uh I came up with this phrase I think uh that boundary disputes are the child custody of real estate law um they they are usually fought out tooth and nail uh with surveyors and uh looking through ancient records and stuff and and oftentimes it's over stuff that isn't worth fighting over but I don't know if it's instinctive but people seem to fight over where a boundary is more than otherwise I'd recommend don't unless it's super important um real estate disputes uh such as uh if somebody owns property or not um that's again rare but I have seen those cases uh have been involved in them before um and business disputes things like a um a corporation um uh if uh and usually in Vermont there's small corporations with like three shareholders uh who own it uh who own a store together or something like that uh if there's a dispute between the owners the shareholders then that would go to the civil division for for resolution um last one's criminal division I just wrote the word don't and the reason I did that is because the the only time you go to criminal division as a citizen is usually almost always you've been accused of a crime the only other thing would be if you're called in as a witness um I've been a lawyer since 1991 I was actually the president of the Vermont uh association of criminal defense lawyers and I did a lot of criminal defense um I can't tell you the number of times I heard people say either well they said they're going to drop the charges or can we press charges um that you hear that on tv a lot but it's it's a bad phrase because nobody presses charges nobody drops charges criminal charges are brought by the state of Vermont the government of the state of Vermont is the only entity that can bring a criminal charge or dismiss a criminal charge and that even includes if and it doesn't usually happen don't get me wrong but if the victim does not want the charge prosecuted it's not up to the victim the victim doesn't have a veto uh to say you know what I don't want it prosecuted so don't do it um if there is other evidence um of the crime then the prosecutor is very likely going to go forward anyway unless you know there are other human and humane reasons which are taken into account it's not a it's not a terribly it can be a terribly vicious system in Vermont but it oftentimes is not um the only other thing on this is uh I used to get people saying well you know I'm I'm going to the police because I'm going to have him charged with harassment or for that matter I'm going to sue somebody for harassment um I'll say it this way there's almost no such thing um you can bring somebody to court for uh um if they're stalking you or they're threatening you for real um not not just if you feel threatened and you're you're kind of weird that you shouldn't feel threatened but somehow you do then that's not going to work but that would be the civil division um likewise there are things that you can sue somebody for for intentional infliction of emotional distress that would be kind of a harassment thing um very hard to win those cases extremely hard um even negligent infliction of emotional distress is an extremely hard case to win um but in terms of criminal law there there are things like disorderly conduct uh there is a criminal stalking charge but again that would be the state's attorney but um the fact that somebody's being uh unpleasant and rude and obnoxious and uh whatever um it's it's not a crime uh in the united states unless it crosses this pretty significant line um you know somebody threatening you and yelling at you and raising a fist sure that that sounds like it could actually be an attempted simple assault um but somebody standing on a street corner and uh loudly proclaiming their political view or telling you that you did something wrong uh in a business dealing with them and getting aggressive and angry i i don't mean physically aggressive um but emotionally aggressive it's just not a crime so criminal division don't um so uh that that is the uh conclusion of my my power point um so uh sandy i'll go over to you on this do you uh uh do you have uh questions do we open it up um yes you can uh open it up and i do have a question and a comment thank you by the way very much that was very uh education for me i do have a question about uh the jurisdiction local governments and i also want to say that in the probate court i believe you you um maybe we forgot one of the main functions is adoptions oh my goodness that's right and a lot of there are a lot of adoptions of course that do take place in the state of vermont so yeah you know that's where you go sandy the terrible thing about that is uh my my two daughters are adopted yeah probate court for that so um yes i uh i have i have the paperwork still so yeah you're absolutely right should have covered that um because mainly because it's more and more important i believe especially with many new americans coming into the the state that you know anyway so thank you though okay i was involved in a case a number of years ago where the city passed an ordinance that said that the police had the authority on church street to go on to church street and if they found that there was a nuisance being committed on church street by a person that they could tell that person to get off church street and essentially exile that person without a hearing without any further ado really and so essentially there being exile which is a form of punishment in my mind um without any kind of a hearing without any due process and that was a that was an ordinance so how come the city okay so based on that there are a number of us who went to court to the supreme court and argued that it was unconstitutional and the court decided that well it could be unconstitutional but sandy baird and jared carter don't have any authority because they have no standing to sit yeah but how come the city could pass you said i think that the city can't pass ordinances only the state which is basically isn't it wasn't that law they can the city can't pass a criminal law well an ordinance into a crime um it could be and again is i think the supreme court would have said you know that depending on the effect of it that could be basically a de facto criminal yeah law um but it sounds like they never got to that point the counter to that i don't and i don't know the answer to your question but i i can pull it out right away because i'm standing well yeah um yeah and that that sounds bad um and it sounds like it was bad in that circumstance standing uh though do remember that's that's why uh texas wasn't allowed to sue all the other states that voted for joe biden right they didn't have standing to do that either um i understood the argument yeah and in fact we did not bring up the argument that that the ordinance itself was passed without real authority we brought up the argument that it was unconstitutional because it did not afford due process to the people who are going to get booted up so maybe we just brought up the wrong argument it could be but anyway maybe um i um it's that yeah uh you know that's the law that happens in law yeah and the other thing is is when you're talking about taxes on a local level that that means in effect right that a local that in the state of her mind is not a home rule state right correct it that true but do some states have home rule in their municipalities yeah um they do i i don't i wouldn't swear to this but i'm pretty sure that actually new york has a version of that because um new york city can pass uh different gun control measures that make it a criminal offense really a new york city has an income tax um but i suppose i suppose vermont towns and cities could have an income tax if uh if the legislature gave them and i know they could if the legislature gave them that authority then they could do that too um but yeah there are home rule states i think it's i think it's fewer um you know the the interesting way that i i view it is um that uh and and i used to say this in court when i was talking about uh search and seizure cases where search warrant did or did not do something um that the the federal government is a supposed to be anyway a government of limited power now those limits are pretty far out there but it is a government of limited power meaning that if it's not if the government if the federal government if it's not said in the constitution then it can't do that and it can't do whatever now again that that is interpreted pretty pretty far and wide but that is the concept state state governments are uh the um the sovereigns meaning like the royalty literally um in the system meaning that a state government can basically do whatever it wants um because it just has inherent power like a king would but it's limited by its own laws and its own constitution um so and and don't get me wrong i'm not saying well uh state there's no state law saying police can't go uh sees cups of coffee from people well yeah there is um the police are that would be theft that's a crime they're not allowed to do that um but but the idea is that uh state government can do uh whatever it wants as long as it's not unconstitutional and long as it doesn't violate um rights um which again can be even things that are not written in the constitution the substantive due process there rights to privacy are things that are there is no constitutional amendment like free speech that says you have a right to privacy but it does exist um it's it's a it's a um substantive due process uh right um but uh towns and cities uh are you know they are completely creatures of the state right so they they can only do what they're allowed to do unless it's a home rule state and then my understanding and not a lawyer in any of these states i wouldn't i wouldn't bet my license on it but uh a lot of those home rule states i think the idea is that the town or city can also kind of act like a state government and do if it's not if it's not illegal then it can do it i guess i have one final question if it's if the town um or a city is the creature of the state could the state uh dissolve a town yes wow good um and um uh you know i mean it it's created towns um you know it it's i i actually found this out uh and i'm kind of ashamed i'm a i'm a native or monitor uh other than when i lived out of state for four years to go to law school i've i've lived here since i was born in 1965 and i didn't i didn't know this but um i finally found out why burlington international airport is actually run by the city of burlington and basically owned by the city of burlington but it's in south burlington um the answer is that south burlington was part of the city of burlington when the airport was created oh really when was that you know not even sure but it was uh it was later it was after when they invented airplanes and that uh and actually it was that was one of the things that south burlington was allowed to go and create its own municipality um its own corporate uh municipal corporation of the i believe it was probably a town at first um but um uh but the deal was that burlington got to keep its airport and by the way that actually is historically where the south burlington school mascot was the rebels because they were seceding from burlington so uh that that was the thing but i think that was actually even as late as the 1940s um likewise uh wanuski used to be part of the town of colchester um and i in the in the early 1990s when i would do a title search in in wanuski there were times when you would have to you have to search a title back 40 plus 40 years plus to make sure that somebody has good title and there were um titles where you could get back to like 35 years in the city of wanuski and then the next reference in in the deed in the old dusty book that you pulled off the shelf um was a reference to a land record volume and page number in the colchester land records so you'd have to drive over to colchester and they they were they were used to this they would you tell them and they'd yeah okay those books are over here and you'd look and sure enough but um yeah so i mean that towns towns and cities divide off from each other uh so i think the implication would be that the legislature could could dissolve city um i you know i again i can't imagine that it actually would just on a whim or to you know punish uh punish the residents of a town or something like that in that case by the way that's where the gores come in remember buell's what is a gore the gore is an unincorporated um uh municipal area meaning it does not have a government and the governor appoints somebody to the administrator of buell's gore um of gore the one that i'm thinking of is buell's gore which i think is near huntington um and uh that administrator actually acts in many large part as a um as the town government um in the cunin administration before he was on the supreme court uh governor cunin as a as a joke and it was actually funny and what it sounds like it might be insulting but it wasn't taken that way at the time um uh made john dually her administration secretary the uh leader of buell's gore or whatever the title is for that and um he had all kinds of funny quotes that he you know wrote out to his territory and surveyed his property and all this other stuff he was a medieval feudal guy or something and again it it played well at the time it probably doesn't sound good historically but um but a gore a gore is administered by um the the state government i i believe mm-hmm thank you thanks sure any other questions are any other questions i guess what i do okay go ahead hey anybody else but me or somebody else oh i thought i heard somebody like now how do we do this yeah well you know it could be worse sandy i had um when i was running for a re-election for the willis and select board once um we were on our channel 17 debate and uh i would have preferred that nobody called in with a question but what happened is somebody called in and said yeah um if the willis and select if the willis and budget were the uss enterprise and star trek what would captain Kirk do uh there's no good answer for that right i guess i do have one other question okay so um i've been very concerned this covid year because town halls are closed city halls are closed we have no access to the city government right now at all i guess uh somebody doing a title search might be able to make an appointment but in effect public meetings have been halted um and i'm wondering if and also the legislature was did not meet the most serious thing to me that happened in the course though was that town meetings did not happen yeah and that there's now mail-in ballots which defeats the whole purpose of town meeting and i'm wondering is that some kind of a constitutional violation will town meetings return to public meetings face-to-face meetings or do you have any opinion or should i i would have a legal answer for you i do um you know that i would say that the town meeting has been uh more and more difficult to pull off as towns have grown um williston has a town meeting we you know there are about 10 000 citizens in williston who are residents um which is interesting is during the day there are over 20 000 people in williston um but uh our town meeting it does exist but the the things that are actually voted on from the floor are very very limited the budget is not the budget is australian battle battle the next day and they spend that way for a very long time um so i you know i don't know what the future holds i do think it's either brattle borough or one of the bees i think is brattle borough but it might be bennington um has uh experimented with representative town meeting and what that means is that you um uh they they section the town off and certain numbers of people volunteer to you know be voted on basically elected to be their neighborhood's voice at town meeting um and that you know that that's an interesting combination between representative democracy and pure democracy i think that there actually is a way where people can just go anyway and and just if they want to go they can go um i grew up uh the one of the earliest recollections i have was the very last town meeting in richmond i grew up in richmond um that was actually at the old round church yeah i i have a very distinct recollection of that it must have i must have been three or four or five years old um and uh you know after that it finally went up to uh camelson middle school um and you know after i got out of law school i was on the board of civil authority so i would help run the town meeting and it really town meetings are really good i mean i remember a couple there were a couple issues in town meeting in richmond that i was really worried that the emotion of the issue would carry the day they they involved funding of the ambulance um and it didn't um the people people talked about it and they stated their opinions and then there was a vote and um you know in my opinion the thing that was more common sense than that was less emotional actually carried the day so um i i you know voters voters at town meeting can generally be trusted there there are times when it could be hijacked by a bunch of people who show up who live in the town but then again they live in the town their voters exactly um yeah but i i don't know what the future holds for that it's it's uh something that should be addressed okay well thank you very much i wonder if there are any other questions guess not yeah actually there are no actually there are questions in the chat so let me let me read them off they're two um regarding allegations of criminal activity by a state official does the attorney general defend the state official or does the attorney general prosecute the state official or does the attorney general have to conflict of interest um actually there's there's a statute that the legislature passed directly on point on that um the answer is that the uh well it depends a state official could be prosecuted by a state's attorney it would depend on what the crime is um like a you know uh actually we had a um auditor of accounts uh about eight years ago who got a DUI and he was prosecuted by the Washington County state's attorney um other things like that that would be more in the purview of the attorney general's office probably not necessarily a conflict of interest it would depend on the facts but there's actually a statute that the legislature passed that said that um if you are if you are a state government employee and you are accused of a crime that involves your state job then um you are actually defended by the public defender's office um yeah um and uh yeah so uh but there could be a conflict of interest uh if you know depend on the facts um but there is there is a um statute that addresses most most of that scenario so um next question towns can put advisory questions on ballots even though they cannot become law what power do these vote uh do those votes have um that that's basically it the the towns can put advisory things and um uh on town meeting day and um they basically are exactly that they are advisory to the legislature um but they're no um no legal authority so I've seen that where the town um actually the wording in a town meeting in Richmond when I was in college uh said that the town the town instructs our members of the legislature to whatever it was and um there was a huge debate over the word instruct because the town can't really instruct the town the state representatives to do anything because they are independently elected by the voters um your your uh power over people in the legislature is at the ballot box and short of that not much else uh but the but you know again it would be pretty if if a town meeting voted to um you know advise uh a a representative of a state senator um that the town's position on something is xyz um you know that that would certainly have sway over the uh state senator or representative it may not may not carry the day um because again they are elected on their own uh in their own right um but the the answer about what power uh it has no power no actual power um persuasive but not powerful great okay yes well thank you very much Chad I hope to see you soon me too you know um I uh I've been coming into Burlington more and more so uh there's a chance of it right anyway but don't get booted off church street yeah I'll I'll do my best uh I um I I generally don't cause any kind of ruckus uh and um I'm pretty boring so I think my chances are good we certainly don't think so so thank you very much all right see you have a good night everybody you too thank you