 So it looks like we ready Okay, I'd like to call the South Burlington City Council to order on Monday November 21st 2022 this conference will now be recorded. That's okay. Our first order of business is the Pledge of Allegiance I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God Indivisible with liberty and justice for all Thank you Instructions on exiting the building in case of emergency Sure, so Thank you all for being here in the room if there's an emergency there are exits on the rear Both sides of the rear of the auditorium and can go right or left to get outside For those participating Virtually, thank you for joining us if you would like to make comment or ask a question during the meeting Please turn your camera on or indicate to me in the chat that you would like to do so Otherwise, we are not monitoring the chat for content. Thanks very much Okay, item three is the agenda review. Are there any additions deletions or changes in order of agenda items? Yes, we would like to respectfully request that you add an amended warrant to the consent agenda. This allows us to Pay the invoice we receive from the Department of Education Per the timeline we received it Friday after the agenda closed Okay, would that be item F? I think you can it's just a renewed disbursements. It's a new a 6a. Okay That's correct, right Andrew right, so this is The payment for education, right? Yes, that's small little number Alrighty, are there any other changes deletions Okay, seeing none. We'll move on to comments and questions from the public that are not related to the agenda Are there any in the audience? You're all part of the agenda. Okay, how about at home? Oh, I guess we'll move on then To five counselors announcements and reports on committee assignments and the city managers report Tim, do you have anything for the day after our last meeting was that the general election and so I ran the precinct for Gen 9 I think it was at Tuttle So that was a nice long day and great turnout lots of a good job Tim lots of ballots came in You know that day or the day before and recounted so a lot of work good work and And I think Donna did an excellent job Managing as well a lot of votes. I also attended the SBBA meeting on Wednesday at on logic I had a tour of on logic with Roland Grenveld and Also, there was an excellent presentation by the CEO of dynapower about the future of energy And how dynapower sits kind of in the middle of that with their products Being central to battery battery energy storage systems and so really interesting story and I really enjoyed that and Enjoyed the tour of on logic as well, which they're moving to that new frame building The current one right and they're going to move entirely to the new one I guess and then And then see what happens with the old building so but they're they're tight on space I heard about supply chain issues heard about supply chain issues, you know impeding design, you know processes new new systems right and But you know a lot of people are caught up in that problem right now, so Thank you. I'll be even nicer if we have a train Strike That's looks like it could happen. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that will will that stop the train in New York City? I Don't know probably Yeah, I don't have tickets Okay Matt, do you have any yeah five quick things? I just wanted to Just follow up with Tim's comment about the elections It's such a great reminder Why we do what we do and it's so affirming and if anyone would like to volunteer for the BCA I highly recommend it I Also attended the SBBA meeting with and heard the speech from Adam from Dinah power It's pretty remarkable what we have in South Burlington between Dinah power beta and on logic three amazing tech companies right here in South Burlington GMTA meeting we got the news on the assessment. It's an increase not a shocker about Looks like about a 10% increase $53,000 more what's driving it? Labor right cost of labor's There's a primary driver of it. These drivers are working overtime Just like our firefighters Because there's not enough drivers and police officers And those have added costs, so it's hitting everyone, but that's what we're looking at as a draft budget assessment More discussions to follow But I can break down what all that is that a percentage 10% 10% So so our total assessment is nearing $600,000 per year Two other small notes are two other things which is the committee for top common area dogs met and The discussion that was Some of the discussions we've had in the past but I just want to lift them up here in this meeting for anyone that's listening, which is Still the need to address the problems at Farrell Park To monitor what's going on at Wheeler Education about cleaning up after your dogs. It's because it's expanded It's also provided the opportunities for dogs to go where the humans aren't and and then and there's been wonderful Volunteers that have helped but certainly people need to take care of their dog's mess But the one of the things that we really do need to take care of is where the posts came out when we expanded the park from the initial footprint There are still holes left from where those posts came out Those need to be filled as soon as possible because someone a young child could put their leg in there or a dog certainly And they're about 18 inches deep and they all need to be filled And you can't really because the earth is rather frozen. You can't just collapse it. You need some fill And then finally the fine arts I wasn't able to attend because of a conflict the fine arts committee meeting, but I reviewed the minutes in We need volunteers for illuminate Vermont on December 16th and 17th It's they've got a fantastic website Illuminate Vermont calm and where you can sign up. That's Friday December 16th and December 17th And they're also we saw some mock-ups of the public art exhibit that they're looking at which is really cool I Don't know where you can get that online, but I have a PDF copy of it, but if anyone's interested Contact me or the committee of fine arts cool Megan yeah, well, I also attended the two meetings that the Of the committees to which I'm in a liaison so that is The Charter Review Committee as well as the Affordable Housing Committee and nothing specific to report I think we all received an email from the chair of the Charter Review Committee Peter Taylor We've been listening to to different types of mayors And as well as the city manager speak to us and it's actually no the city manager didn't didn't wasn't able to come from Montpelier right so Thank you, thank you and The Affordable Housing Committee will is busy preparing things for November 30th that we'll be looking at next week. So more than Okay, great. Um, I Was out in Salt Lake this last week Helping my daughter to negotiate Long COVID and the effects on her and her family which are Significant it's real It's um, very difficult but you know, she made some progress and We continue to be hopeful that she'll get back to Hopefully where she is she seems to be better emotionally, which is given some of the local news that was Made me feel better that her mental health was a little bit stronger But I did while I was out there I did join the airport Commission meeting and Financially the airports doing very very well were above pre-covid Revenue for the Parking garage as well as in plainment. So that's always a positive thing. We had a really interesting presentation by the consultant who's working on the climate plan for the airport and he's working on developing Or identifying the baseline for the airport and different activities that they can Address we also I asked about the fuel consumption By the commercial as well as the Air Force and He acknowledged that that's not a number that they have right now But there they do have some access to ways to to develop that for example They can find out and will the number of gallons of Jet fuel that are sold or consumed going at least out of Btv and then And I meant to bring it with me and I couldn't find the little piece of paper that I wrote it on but there But I will get it to you. I think they're posting it online, but there is a Website I Think it's managed by the it's not the FAA But it's all the aeronautic groups and you can identify on that How much fuel Delta uses what they're doing for example for? Climate change activities, so it's a it sounds like it would be a very good resource for people who really want to Identify what is actually happening maybe not necessarily at BTV because it's in general the Airlines and so but but there are Airlines and and planes that come into BTV that are using a a new kind of fuel That's more efficient. So I I guess I would say that I think they're actively pursuing Whatever they can do operationally and working with the different airlines To encourage them to join in the Efforts to cut down on The use of fossil fuels So that's I thought it was interesting and it's you know, obviously not done yet, but we're working on it Okay, that's and I worked election eve and I just want to really call out how wonderful Donna was in designing and managing and providing all the Materials that we needed, you know, you read about other states and the concerns that are expressed about How things don't happen correctly when people are voting and All the deniers and and I I looked around and watched us and I felt that we had Incredibly good support. I assume that you know most towns and cities in Vermont have similar kinds of approaches and delivery of Voting and it's it seemed incredibly Secure with an awful lot of checks and crosschecks and it was just hard for me to imagine How someone in South Burlington Could swing the election in some devious way without us You know finding out about it so You know just hats off to Donna. She's great to work with and and I think We had a busy and very successful Election just one comment I want to contrast my experience at 7 p.m. That night with me at the doors of trouble shouting at the guy on the bicycle get in here and the person walking around get in here compared with probably like Arizona Nevada and some other states were they were there till 2 o'clock in the morning Right people were waiting in line for hours and hours and hours Which is totally unfair in my mind, so I I think I mean we have fewer people to begin with but It seems like it's a lot fairer, right? But they probably have more polling places So I mean it does kind of balance out a little bit. I think but anyway, I would agree. It was nice to Another good reason to live in Vermont And not move away Okay, sitting sitting managers Might I be referring to City managers report, please I'm gonna actually start by passing it to Andrew for Some good news that's in your consent agenda that we just want to highlight Sure. Yeah, so this is item. I think 6c in your consent agenda, but It's a feel-good story. You typically don't associate insurance renewals with feel-good stories, but in this case it is Just it's outlined in the memo but back in 2016 We were paying 1.1 million in our annual property and workers comp insurance premiums Today with our most recent renewal We went out to bid had a very competitive process between VLCT passive and Hickok and boardman through travelers And the number that we will be renewing at is 750,000 which is over a six-year period Considering the city's property valuation and other exposures have increased by 25 percent since then It's just exceptional. You don't see reductions and premiums and insurance And so a lot of credit goes out to the leadership team prior administration Greg Yando our safety officer and and his predecessor as well as our safety committee that we've had running for a while Workplace safety is a culture. It's one that our staff here is embraced and Anyway, seeing real dollars and cents Results because of that. So really exciting just wanted to highlight that Why can't my car insurance do that You have to drive more carefully probably Hmm So I don't have much else to add I do want to highlight just some upcoming meetings and events So just as a reminder to council We are meeting next Wednesday, November 30th to receive the feedback from the committees on recommendations for ARPA Funding I know they've been doing a lot of work pulling together some recommendations for you all December 5th is our next regular council meeting We will be presenting you our proposed leadership team FY 24 budget and we will have three public hearings that night. So it's it's quite a busy night And then just to mark your calendars January 23rd is our steering committee meeting with the school board So we will be sure to get that on your calendars, but that's the when we present the FY 24 budgets to one another In more fun news, we have a lot going on in December through recreation and parks department. So in December 2nd From 5 30 to 7 30 is the spark the park at that park kickoff The senior holiday meal is December 9th at 5 30 As Matt said illuminate from on is December 16th from 4 to 8 both nights It's a Friday and Saturday night That's shaping up to be a really remarkable street festival and using this building so that envisioning of what market street could be as a festival Street Holly and Alana and their teams have done amazing work pulling that off this year and then the senior holiday lights tours to December 20th at 5 30 and We will be December 19th is the judging of the holiday lights display Contest so lots of fun stuff opportunities to connect with that one another coming up Okay Moving on to the consent agenda we have Five items And one additional one on disbursements will include also include the payment for education October financials Receiving the renewal award that Andrew just spoke about Approved the submittal of a municipal planning grant application to develop an equity framework for planning projects I thought that was interesting reading and I'm glad we're going for that money and Lastly a point Marty Gillis or Gillies as an acting zoning administrative officer and acting code Officer I'll move that we approve the consent agenda second. Is there any discussion or comment? Is is Marty is the job description basically what Delilah used to do? Can I ask the question? Yeah, that's fine just curious Hi folks Paul Conner director of planning is owning so we've reorganized a little bit so previously When with our prior person Delilah Hall, she was officially the zoning administrator and The way that we essentially did it was we had development review DRB type projects And then there was a handoff to say and now Delilah you do all the permitting from from that point We've looked at some other models and we're looking at it a little bit more Linearly so that somebody who starts a project that did at the DRB sees it all the way through so that creates more Consistency for the applicant and it gives more You know somebody who starts a project gets to see it all the way through so we're doing it the zoning administration Each person is authorized to be a zoning administrator And so we're doing it more by the lanes of the large project that you would start So it's not exactly the same position. We've reorganized a little bit and just add two more sentences as part of this reorganization We've also we are also in the process of promoting Marla Keen to oversee those review planners and hiring a second review planner Excellent very excited by thank you. Thanks for the question All right any other discussions who are ready for the vote All in favor of approving the consent agenda as presented and amended signify by saying aye. Aye Any opposed okay Moving on to item seven. It's considering the appointment of allison Lazar's Lazar's i'm sorry to be south berlington's alternate to Show me to the chitin solid waste board of commissioners and paul Stabler yeah Who is our representative? So welcome and I thank you for being interested So I guess we need to just do a little interview Okay, yeah, and I'm trying to find it on my Oh, it's separate. It's separate separate. Okay. No wonder I couldn't find it. Um I'd be curious Yeah, to know how you became aware of this position and what led you to apply Sure So I am a subscriber to the digest. I believe it's called which is cswd's monthly newsletter And in the newsletter there was a call to anyone who is interested in being either an alternate or a board member Excuse me. Is your mic on is the bright light green? It's maybe you can I'm very quiet So I will try to be out or get it a little closer to your mouth. Please sure So I found out through the cswd newsletter and there was a call to anyone who is interested in becoming either A board member or an alternate depending on which towns had positions open And so I read it thought about it emailed someone there got a little more information I thought about it some more and said well, it's an alternate position. So it's not the the full shabang and I am I feel like I embody a lot of what cswd cswd's mission is so I thought I might as well put my name in the ring name in the hat to be considered Uh got connected with paul who is the current board member and he told me some more information and I thought it it's something that Resonates with me the the mission of cswd and a lot of the things I do in my own life to try to reduce waste and Uh, we'll live a more green life Great Thank you Sure other questions or Tim So at dealer.com Do you stand in the cafeteria and ensure that employees put their waste their food waste into the compost bin? Um, maybe not so much there. Although I have done a lot of education at dealer.com about that sort of thing Did did I mention somewhere that I worked there or how did you know that I worked there? You have it on your application. Oh, perfect. Okay, great. That was so long ago. We have information, you know a lot about you You've checked me out. Um Although I Do I haven't recently done this but pre pre pandemic I was part of the waste warrior program through chitin and solid waste district And through that program I would literally stand next to the trash and compost and the recycling and Help people sort their waste into the correct bins because that's something that I'm passion that passionate about that I wanted to help educate In my household, there are drastic penalties for mixing the wrong items in the recycling bucket and It's awful. Um, you know, but I know where I work. Um, there was a big push, you know seven or eight years ago to make sure that That recycling, you know, the separation was was correct and and actually worked for a while and there are compost bins now in the cafeteria, but I pass by regular bins now and they're just all mixed up cans and trash and But you know, you do what you can so I I don't want to speak forever, but um through my work at dealer.com. Our parent company is cox automotive and they have corporate goals around, um, zero waste to landfill and carbon neutrality and water neutrality And I've been very involved in the zero waste to landfill piece of that and so I have done a lot of education at dealer.com about what goes in which bin I've actually done a trash sort. Um, a couple of times with one of the outreach coordinators at cswd. So We literally saved trash from our company for two days. I think two or three days and then a group of us went out and ripped the bags apart and Took everything and sorted it and and came up with The cswd folks helped with the the statistics, but We were able to find out how much of our trash could have actually been recycled or composted How much recycling should have been trash or compost and how much compost could have been trash or recycling and yeah It's really fascinating and you you see patterns and it can really help with the education piece So how did the programmers do? Uh Oh gosh, it depended we did this did it over three years and I don't remember the specifics, but we call it the diversion rate and the diversion rate Was better certainly by by the second year actually the first year it was like shell shock Wow, we can do a lot better and then through a lot of education and In making some simple changes like we can compost the paper towels in the bathroom So that saves a huge chunk of stuff from being thrown in the trash Yeah, it's been fun. Yeah, I do think sometimes it's hard to figure it out And especially when you travel you go to other places and it's it's different. It's really different So that sometimes can make it more of a challenge and you just either need really good pictures Or um, you know more education, but it's it certainly is really important and we do We even have a separate bag for a little plastic stuff Nice And so then I when I go to my daughters They don't do that and I I have to relearn what where I can throw stuff And not to save every little piece of saran wrap To put in a separate bucket because I don't have a separate bucket So I've been known to save certain types of material that Can be recycled in other states like my sister lives in Maine and they take A certain type of carton there and we don't accept them here for recycling So I save them a sign anytime I go to visit her. I say here you go. Ashley. I got some trash for you That's great any other um questions Great well, I want to thank oh paul. Just want to lend my you know full support to uh Allison's appointment as the alternate for south burlington. It'll be great to have someone to bounce ideas off of get a different opinion Um, I don't I rarely miss meetings, but occasionally that's unavoidable So it'll be great to to have an alternate because I haven't had one for a very long time. So, uh, I just again I we had a great conversation. She asked lots of questions as you can tell she has a real passion for it. So Um, I just yeah, I fully support that. So well, that's great. Well, we all need succession plans as well At some point, right so Okay Yeah, I'll move to a point Alice in uh, uh, Lazar's As alternate to the cswd board second. Okay any further discussion? All in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. And thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you all expressing interest and um It's really important Thank you very much What time is it? Oh seven o'clock on the nose. So we are warned for a public hearing on amendments to the land development regulations On expending the tdr's the transferable development rights. So it's ldr 22-05 and ldr 22-06 So I guess I would entertain a motion to go into A public hearing so moved Second all in favor So we are in a public hearing on the amendments Paul do you want to Just so briefly, um, you held a public hearing a little over a month ago on october 17th At that hearing you had received or prior to that hearing you'd received one piece of feedback Which was from the vermont land trust. Um, there was a clarification that they had um Had a little bit of concern uh that they would like to advance. Um, you Added that Minor language um clarification via the city attorney into the draft Which um creates a second public hearing. So that's tonight the planning commission looked at it And reaffirmed their report and had no further comments. I have not received any more feedback on it since that time Okay, go over anything you like, but I know you've got a very long agenda. So we do we do Are there any comments from the public? Yes Thank you So for the excuse me for the record, uh, dan albrecht City resident proctor avenue and also a member of the drb Um, I was just speaking on behalf of myself not my employer or the drb or anybody. Um So Just some general comments and and food for thought. Um I know it's late in the game. I wasn't able to make some of the previous discussions. Um And before I start, um I mean the process met You know all the required notices and the hearings and stuff like that, but It's kind of interesting just when I first saw like the color coded map of the density increase. Um This is a significant change didn't really have any What's the word? Um Didn't unless I missed it. Um It wasn't a process that seemed current with Today's planning standards of outreach Um I'm going to check all the boxes and for those who follow this stuff You know, they might know to go but the average resident There's a lot of stuff going on for example in planning You'll see little pop-up signs with qr codes next to the bike path or You know, hey give yourself input about the survey So for such a significant change in in the land use regulations affecting Multiple property owners and a largely ignored part of the city. Um, it's pretty it's a little dismaying Um, but there it is. Um So, uh, just some comments and food for thought. Um, as a professional planner and a member of the drb I understand the principle of promoting higher density near transit lines and employment Um However, the proposed expansion of the tdr as well as current zoning fails to meet this principle due to a variety of reasons Um, one of the biggest reasons is that our current transit service is really inadequate Both in terms of frequency as well as the number of routes in south burlington Um, and I know that's a whole separate thing about the funding and the you know, the whole system and how it works, but It's kind of like a transit overlay district and sort of name only because if you don't really have a good effective bus system with with You know, what's it called head times or lead times, you know and good frequency It doesn't it exists on paper, but it's not a real thing Um compared to, you know, what a real city has Um, so I get the principle, but it doesn't match the reality of what's the ground So, um, you know, we we don't see any signs of future improvement And and so the transit system is can't meet the demand the city is promoting right now Um, and I get it which comes first the horse of the car or you know, if you build it They will come etc, but Without a concurrent effort to really expand transit system both to meet this tdr concept as well as The climate change climate action plan then it's kind of a misfit um The also if you look at where the over the transit overlay district is somewhat It's limited in geographic scope. It doesn't it doesn't capture anywhere Down major commuting routes of spear street dorset street in 116 even though there's housing there So that's that's a mismatch um The really thing that jumps out at me And again, I've only lived here 20 years so not in a long time But the proposed significant expansion of housing density on shelburn road Is mitch matched to an outdated assumption that all the jobs are in burlington that there's this old pattern of like Oh, everybody's gonna go Going up the shelburn road corridor and we're all working downtown I mean look at where all the new employers are it just it doesn't fit and stuff So I get the concept. It's the right idea as a plan. I get a density, you know The service is that somebody who lives in this corridor, you know, I can walk to the post office and walk to the grocery store and walk to the gym I believe in that and I live it um And then so so when you look at the proposed housing density expansion It does not take into account The significant increase in jobs and resulting commuting patterns in and around the east portion of the city And as a drb I'm mentally familiar with there and so are you at beta on logic and really one of the largest Employers and showing no signs of stopping Is the uvm medical industrial complex on tilly drive? I mean think about that. There's a large new employment base all on the east side of the city And we're still stuck with this old old overlay district and crappy ass routes for our gmt um, so if you want to make The transit overlay district as well as the ldr is fit With where the employment patterns are then you put the housing and the density within within where the where the jobs are So you you need to increase the scope of the tod To go 1.5 miles south of its current limits to any areas with municipal water and sewer service And then if you believe in the green living if you believe in the commuting to the jobs And if you believe in fighting climate change then you increase residential densities within 1.5 miles or 2 miles or whatever line you want to draw and just as you're proposing increasing In the shelburn road corridor by 50 density bonus or a maxed it no density no density limit at all Then any areas that you create to create new tdr receiving areas should get that increase at all I mean it's it's housing it's people And you're putting it on the bus line to get to the jobs that are there. So that's a fit, right? um So that's sort of about the tdr's the other things are more like budgetary But if you think about Any increase in the grand list that's generated with the associated residential density increases, which this policy is promoting Above the base regulations you need to earmark the funds from those extra units Towards increasing the bus service in the corridors and neighborhoods from which those Increases were obtained if this hypothetically comes through you would see a significant increase in traffic On shelburn road, which is the indirect You know, it's the it's the other side of the coin you get the density It's good and it hopefully makes transit a real thing because it increases demand But if you don't have the service to match it it's just going to create more traffic We don't have a robust system the other thing to do which would be really nice um my last point about Increasing the frequency of the gmt route servings health broonton And it's really weird to see this climate plan with lots of great ideas And now you get to the implementation. So if the city council really cares about this increased transit It helps low-income people. It helps disadvantaged communities It really targets the people who need to help the most and it promotes getting cars off the road, which is what we all want, right? So anyway, so as I see this thing here just and this is just more of a personal comment You know speaking as a shelburn corridor resident road corridor resident It would be nice to see some community assets planned and built for this corridor You know, you're planning to put a significant amount of growth in there. It'd be great to see a rec center more parks more playing fields And you know, I've been beating the drum about this. It might be nice to Fix up feral dog park, which we've been asking for for a couple of years so I appreciate your service and Just some thoughts about it, but it's like I say it's you got some it's a good I it's a good concept here and I get what the planning commission is trying to do But it doesn't match the reality on the ground So thanks. Appreciate it. Thank you other comments from the public here or at home Chris and then Oh and Linda. Okay I would like to Give a pause would you um for the record? Chris Trombly uh 16 Du Bois uh resident today. Um, I'm also on the affordable housing committee, but here for myself I would like to give a positive support for the Removal of or the maximum density. Uh, that's a very encouraging zoning Change it does allow flexibility to build what the market requires for That could allow for more affordable housing while the affordable housing committee didn't get an opportunity to review this That particular change was encouraging The requirement for getting that density by purchasing does add costs and I'm a little skeptical if it does incentivize the market because you know, if you buy a certain amount You may have more inclusionary and you know, you're just kind of it's another layer of costs, but um, The the the no maximum density was was an was an excellent decision. Thank you Thank you Linda If the light is bright green it is Ah, okay that changed it. Okay. Linda Bailey from uh over on large road chitinand area or a chamberland area um Dan had some really good points. I'm not going to try to go over them again Other than the one that he touched on about building should be going where we have the uh water and sewer and that type of infrastructure um I like the idea of getting higher density of homes in the city. I think it's a questionable to make someone buy From somebody else to be able to do it. I think it'd make a lot more sense to just zone for the type of density that you want one other problem that I have with the way that the uh transfer land development rights are structured at this point is that once those land development rights have been uh sold They're sold forever forever forever forever that cuts out Any chance for our children our grandchildren our great-grandchildren to see different types of needs in our city I think it would make a lot more sense to set the transfer development rights If you have to have them rather than just setting zoning that you want If you did it for 30 years, which is what the state of Vermont requires and then have it reviewed Maybe every five years or every decade review whether you're going to continue that has a non-buildable piece of property I'm doing it forever in a day It's not looking future. It's not looking to what might change in the future So anyway, thank you. Thank you other comments, is there anyone um Who is coming in virtually I would entertain a motion to close the public hearing So moved second all in favor. Bye. Okay, so the So we the next step is to Yeah, well Is there any comments? Yeah, I will say I as a regular bus user Um, I don't go down the shelter in corridor, but I did check the schedule Which I have on my phone and it's every 20 minutes. So that's pretty good That's when I take the number one bus line down Williston road It's every 20 minutes. So when I leave work, you know, I just know how to time My my departure to the to the bus schedule 20 minutes. I find to be very reasonable um, and the transit overlay district Also includes the kennedy drive area and our local number 11 bus. I also take that bus Comes every 45 minutes. It's it's not as regular But what I want to say is that I've taken the bus for years and the schedule has changed Like once or twice a year. So I know that You know, if the need increases and and the users are able to sustain, you know, more more usage I can only imagine that GMT would increase the service You know, I I I'm aware that there are major cities that have Many many more lines But they have the population to make that a viable thing too. So This, you know, these changes would increase population and I, you know, that magical word critical mass I think is something that's really important for You know reaching a level of funding that would make us able to fund services So I see this as, um, you know It will happen as the need increases. That's that's my response there and And yes, we are all facing, um, increased costs. Um, I'm not here to tell you otherwise. I think that We're all aware of what's going on in the world and we don't live in a bubble and with You know potential changes to climate in areas that become unlivable We will likely be facing, you know, an inflow of of many many people Who need housing and I think we have to plan for that It's much better to have an apartment for them as opposed to a wooded lot and they have to come with the tent So I think that this is a responsible policy And I don't see this, you know as The end all I think that everything is always organic based on what we see, you know, coming up In the foreseeable future. So I would imagine That things will change as as time, you know goes on and needs change. So I see this as a good step for now. I'm ready to pass it Okay, other comments? Yeah, Tim. Oh, I'm sorry. You can go ahead. Okay. Um, I just wanted to say that Um, there was a challenge to the city's use of transferable development rights that went to the state supreme court and, um They were verified by the supreme court in february 2019 and so the challenge failed So this is a valid way, uh for people that own land in the southeast quadrant who originally told That they could conserve portions of it from sending areas and send to receiving areas This is a great idea to enable that market So these people can further sell these these tdrs into other parts of the city That are on the transit overlay district where the buses run to achieve higher density for residential housing And that includes there's a nice block down there off of allen road where you'll be a 50% density increase as well So I I think this is a really good solution And hopefully it will help the market for those tdrs Thanks matt Yes, i'm going to support this policy, but I just like to lift up a couple of comments The first is what tim just said because as a former drb chair I was uh running the show when we were sued by members of the southeast quadrant Who felt that tdrs were illegal they are in fact legal and they're a great tool to conserve land And I remember those comments Secondly I want to recognize the comments from dan albrecht and the fact that Density is a good thing, but we also need to make sure we have amenities It's not density in the vacuum and I know the planning commission cares about that But so do I It's not just about building up and building more Which we need to do In a responsible way, but it's also about making sure that those that live in apartments Have the same access to dog parks and green grass and parks as we all do as people in other parts of the city do And finally I'd like to say that yes the idea behind Lowering greenhouse gas emissions is walking to work biking to work and taking the bus And we as a community are going to be asked to support gmta To the tune of a 10 percent increase So if you do support reducing carbon emissions You'll support an increase in that budget They can't do it. They can't add more lines. They're limited by the number of drivers. They have And the number of buses they have And it's getting more expensive every day. So With that said I will support the change Just to you know add on to what you said matt looking at the comprehensive In my affordable housing and in my capacity as the liaison of the affordable housing committee. I saw the new Goals of the comprehensive plan and it include having recreational space available as You know new infill projects come in and this is an infill. This is part of our infill project So the recreation space is already And I I'm not the only one but I remember saying that if you know We increase density. We still need to teach our children how to ride bikes, right? So it's important for us to think about the recreation and I see that the plan commission followed through on that and it's Actually within the top goals. It's written as one of the sub points Okay, well, I shall support it too and I don't think I can add anything more and I appreciate your Um comments both you dan as well as linda um, and I think you have some Valid points that I I think as um Megan suggested are Hopefully will be addressed And they should be and we I think everyone on the Committee or the council supports that Paul do you have any No, um, no, I just well go ahead and I have no nothing to add. Okay Michael, do you need to add something? You had your little hand waving I just wanted to say that yes, this uh tdr ordinance is not perfect and uh, we certainly didn't want perfect to get in the way of done but uh And there are ways in which it can be improved in the future But uh, it is where it is what we've got now and it's it's all we could do on the planning commission at this point so I'd I appreciate your plan to approve it, but it can be improved in the future Thank you. So we're ready for the vote. So I need a motion I guess to adopt these I move to adopt amendments to the land development regulations number ldr dash 22 dash 0 5 and ldr dash 22 dash 0 6 as presented in this meeting's packet Second, okay any further discussion All in favor signify by saying aye Aye Okay, so that passes. Thank you folks and I just want to say thank you to all the members of the planning commission As well as all the hard work of the tdr interim zoning committee that provided recommendations that led to this A lot of work from many people. Thank you Excuse me All right, well we're Yeah, don't No, no, we're moving on to number nine potential. Oh, we just did that. Excuse me So now it's 10 first reading of an ordinance to implement education impact fees and set up public hearing And I might add we are ahead of schedule. So this is good I think we have everybody here who we need here So if I may just do a team of table setting and then pass it along to the superintendent as well I appreciate it. Um, so you heard this recommendation from the school board on October 17th We also talked about our june steering committee meeting at the october 17th meeting You gave us some direction about coming forth with A recommended ordinance changed implement education impact fees It's the policy recommended by the school board and this and the superintendent We've integrated your thoughts into a draft ordinance. So I thought it would be Useful for you all to hear any additional table setting the superintendent want to provide as well as An overview from rsg jonathan slayson on what's changed since the last draft impact fee report you saw And then our city attorney and planning director can walk through what's actually in the ordinance Violet hi Hi, jesse. Good evening everyone. Thank you for Having us here virtually. Uh, here having us here if you will figuratively We have Been this is something we've been discussing in partnership with jesse and paul Really just trying to Ensure that As I sit through this development hearing that you've just had ensure that we have high quality schools Now and going forward like the ones that we've enjoyed for some time in south burlington We know that people come to our city and part of the reasons that we have You know, these three strong Companies are because of the education. So in order for us to do that We have reached a point where We're no longer able to Add students to two of our elementary schools rick markot central school and orchard central school And so when we see at 250 permits, you know, of course, there's this question. Are you able to accommodate these students? And currently rick markot central school and orchard school are over capacity So we're not able to add additional students We do believe at the district that Developing our community and riches are our schools and our community and the education of all of our students So to do that we're asking For the council this evening to Hear this first ordinance in consideration of the implementation Of impact fees Which would help us to pay for eight? zero emission modular units These units are a greener alternative in alignment with with some of the city's visioning around Green initiatives as well as my administration's goals for our district You know thinking about our e buses and and some of the other ways that we're trying to You know expand our our whole community and and Be responsible to our environmental needs as well So these zero emissions modulars are unbudgeted They are something that a committee called the enrollment committee made up of educators community members Decided to they've been brought forward to the board this recommendation to go with the ZEMS rather than a traditional Trailer unit or something similar And this cost was not something again. It was not something that was budgeted for so as we know right now we're seeing high inflation rates and The cost and everything from labor and materials has increased significantly We have We are in a position now where we need to seek impact fees To pay for these we will go out to bond to pay for the costs And the impact fees if implemented would pay back the district They would cover the cost of the ZEMS Of course being shut off the moment the ZEMS are paid for it should the ordinance go through and You know, this is only part of the master planning that we need to do This would be phase one There are two other phases as our students age through our school system We'll need middle and high school spacing solutions as well Those haven't been articulated yet. So we cannot tie impact fees to them at this time As impact fees are based on a specific mathematical formula based on actual costs But I want to make sure that we keep that a part of the conversation Something that we're we're having discussions about at the board level are developing Committees so that we can make a you know an infrastructure committee so that we can have We can be in a position Hopefully in the near future where we're not in a reactive space like we are now So I see that to mean You know, I'm in a position here this evening requesting impact fees so that we can address user involvement And we'd like to be in a position going forward when we're talking about impact fees For planned developments. However Here we are and because of the time crunch We have recommended the implementation of phased-in impact fees We are we're very mindful of the developments that are currently planned and underway And we'd like to move forward You know with a hearing as soon as possible, I understand a potential date might be December 21st So, you know, the district would very much like to advocate for that The council would consider it and That would allow us to potentially realize impact fees as early as July 1st 2023, which is the start of our fiscal year at potentially a 50 percent Of the cost that that Jonathan has calculated here And then with us seeing 100 percent of those again, this is a recommended phased-in that 100 percent at I guess it would be January 1st, 2024 sounds sounds so far from now But those would be that's the one here period that we're discussing right now. So We've also We're really wanting to see affordable housing exemptions And I think that's an alignment with a lot of the conversation Here tonight as well wanting to make sure that we are developing responsibly and that we are You know supporting The citizens within our community who You know might be in need of some equity supports So, uh, those are the provisions that that we've discussed and that we've prioritized and a little bit about the rationale I'll pass it on to Back to uh, Jesse, I'll pass it to you. And if you want to, um, you know, read further information We can certainly share that Sure. Thank you. Thank you. Um, so I think it might benefit the council Jonathan There are some numbers in the draft ordinance that are A slightly different from the draft report the council previously saw us So just reviewing that recommendation from the school at a high level What those numbers are and then paul and collin can walk through the exact ordinance language Great. Thank you. Um, thank you counselors So I got a couple high level changes that have Resulted from the impact fee Or from the changes and fees associated with the ZEMs primarily So I have a couple things in response to our previous meeting We did update the impact fee to account for a change in the bedroom units There was a request to consider a three bedroom unit and then a four plus bedroom unit as separate items And so the fee has been revised to account for that As part of that revision, we had to reassess some of the latest census data and that was, um Informative because it has actually provided us greater insight onto some behaviors that I think we we were expecting to have Happen over time But we've now have it more evidence In the data that shows that Households in the one and two bedroom category actually have more students in them than the older census data had Estimated and so the fee at both the low end and the high end has been revised to account for the change in the bedrooms we've also updated as As violet mentioned about the ZEMs themselves So we have a more recent cost estimate and the inflation has Affected us a little bit there, but it's a pretty modest increase in cost as part of a Consideration of that increase in cost We've also gone back and sharpened our pencils to look at the occupancy of the ZEMs And the district has decided that we could accommodate Basically 17.5 students on average Throughout the different and diverse class mixes that would be utilizing these ZEMs And so we've been able to see a bit of a cost increase But also divided over a larger number of students So trying to appreciate that that it's a balancing act here between the various parties What then those changes have resulted in the final base Impact fee estimate and that's what's in table 14 of the report On page 33 of the 40 pdf and apologies that the page numbers seem to have slipped off the pdf So we will get that rectified when we get a final report sent along to everybody We wanted to acknowledge that financing the school district is pursuing a bond because these impact fees will accrue over time And the district requires the the money to be available now to make this purchase And so we've excluded any financing costs associated with the debt And so that also is a bit of a cost share agreement that the impact fee piece would be covering just the capital part of the ZEMs that's Accommodating new capacity for students But the additional costs associated with financing is excluded from the impact fee consideration The other piece that is new is the chapter on credits And happy to go into more depth there if there's any questions But in essence the impact fee is not able to cover the full cost of the bonded ZEMs purchase and that is why we have a we have an existing deficiency that we've discussed at previous meetings that we cannot cover And then we're also not covering the financing costs of the of that bond And so there is a annual deficiency that will be expected to be born on the back of the property tax And the credit methodology simply offsets those payees of impact fees that would also be paying property taxes Over the next few years that would contribute toward paying the debt down on that on that bond So that new chapter accounts for that potential double double payment issue that I think we had a public member raised at a meeting previously So those are the new pieces that have gone into the updated report And those pieces have been reflected in the updated fee schedule. That is a part of the ordinance So I um, I send it back to you and whether there's any questions for me. I'm happy to take that on Are there any questions? Or do we Go through the ordinance What what's your pleasure? Well, it makes no sense. Um, what well Why don't you ask your questions and then we'll go through the thing First question is for violet. Um, hi violet. Are the zebs under contract? Do we know what the final price will be? for the eight zebs Good evening. Um, the zems are uh, we're not able to move forward. Um with, um The the the purchasing of the zems until uh a bond decision is made So that would go out to voters in march. Uh, the board has approved me to move forward with that. So that's the plan now. Um, the, um So, sorry, that was part two. Tim, was this your question? I can't tell from the I'm trying to figure out if we know what the final cost will be if they're under a contract So we know what the price is in what the gulf is between what we could possibly raise that jonathan's math brings up Versus what you what you'll need to For the for all eight. That's a great question. Yes, we do have final quotes. Um, and uh, we met with the team last week and Essentially, you know, what I said is we we're now at a point where we have to put a cap on this So that means we're going to be working within within the quote that we have Part of our decision here to move fasty from 17 to 17.5 was because it shaved off about 200 dollars per um I don't have there. I'm working off of one screen. I'm at home right now So I don't have the report to pull up but it um with the increase in the cost of zems Uh, and then the uh increase in students and then also removing the Um, the fees associated with amortization We were able to be lower. Um, then uh, jonathan, I see you looking at your screen here if you can pull up this number Please call it out. We were able to be lower than the prices that were listed. Um, that we discussed last time They're here. So to the answer your question At this point, we have final estimates and we're committed as a district to working within them So that might might mean some compromises on some materials different kinds of siding Hooks versus lockers, right finishing touches Um barring something extremely unusual. Um, we um, you know We're not planning for these costs to go up. Uh, and if they do, um, you know, we would certainly Work with jonathan on the impact fees Again, I think the the modifications we've made now um, are really us being aware of um, I think it was mr. Silverstein's question Uh, the last time we were here, um to try to have something to avoid that double dip if you will So that's a goal of ours and and I don't see this cost changing from from what is in these Who's it be the six million dollar figure? Thank you. Well, just one more follow-up May which this might be a question for jonathan or for calling her paul, but um When you did appreciate the calculation with the four bedrooms, I think that's important Um What about big a affordable what we call permanently affordable housing? I didn't see anything in the draft ordinance Was there a calculation that jonathan did to exclude Or was there a consideration in the draft ordinance to how that how would you possibly do that? To exclude big a affordable Permanently affordable housing from the impact fees so that john John can you start with the uh, Assum the assumption that was made in the report and then we'll address the ordinance part of it Uh, well, I guess maybe let's tag team this. I'm not sure about the assumption, but basically the legal Uh nexus is that all houses would be charged We assume that all houses equally have a chance of generating a student And so in essence, they would be assessed an impact fee Then once they're assessed that impact fee if they satisfy certain criteria i.e being permanently affordable Then the city is able to wave or exempt them from that fee And that's the process so the report itself does not have anything that would account for the affordability of the units And it's my understanding that the ordinance language will address that specifically so all Units new units permitted charged based on bedroom size But with the process for getting some of that money back or not having charged is what calling them Paul Do you want to go ahead? Sure? I think that the draft you see in front of you does not include that So it would have to be something and Paul and I have been talking about this of how we incorporate this into the draft. It could be incorporated Now If it's something you want to to have us include And we're happy to include that and all right, so um if the if it was the The school district in our discussions did express interest in allowing for that Exclude that exemption If you were to do it probably our our recommendation would be that Anything that qualifies as what we now call an inclusionary unit Whether they're getting a bonus from it or they're doing more than that would be a clear cut-off line that is Spelled in our regulations and that's the sort of classic 80 percent of median household earning 80 percent of median income As a permanently affordable dwelling unit for that household So that would be council's choice if you'd like to do it So you're sorry council's choices Can you just clarify that to put to if you said you would like to have that exemption in there You could choose to give us that direction this evening and that would be in the draft Warned for the public hearing But that would have an effect on the total collection then yeah, what it would right So then would that mean that the tables would have to be adjusted to account for that John we've attempted to mitigate against that risk What we've done is done a fairly conservative estimate of the revenue that would actually be collected through the impact fees So we've done a I think a sound estimate of After all of these credits after any of the exemptions How much could the property tax be eligible to contribute to the bond? And I think we have a fair cushion there So we are we're basically providing more credits than I than I really would think is necessary So that we're offsetting that that that that that chance okay All right, you have another question. Yeah, all right. Yeah, so um Just myself. I'm not in favor of charging the four percent fee that the city would Levy as part of a filing administrative charge. I think that that's I I don't agree with that. I mean if you're already paying an impact fee You have to pay a four percent tax on top of it To pay your impact fee. Well, I just misunderstood that. I'm sorry. Yeah Is that the four percent of the total tag not four percent on top? As dropped it would be calculated as four percent on top. Yeah, so I I don't support that So just an opinion that I have I don't support that The second thing is um I noticed that if there were to be some refunds it it would be it would include a crude interest Is there any language that describes what that interest rate is or what it would be based upon while the money was being held? Because for example, if there's a tax sale In the city Right, you have to wait a year before You can actually take possession of the house and that money that you that you pay for A tax sale is held by the city and if it doesn't happen It's refunded at and there's an interest rate that's quoted. I think in the ordinance, which is Much it was much higher than was the interest rate at that time when we were read that that fact and I was like Wow, that could hurt. So I just wanted to make sure that that there maybe there should be language about What type of interest rate would be accrued? Or would be used to to calculate that accrual because I wouldn't want you to just you say, you know Oh, it's five percent when we're going to be in A ten percent time was or five percent when we're in a zero percent time because it might actually cost the city some more Money than we expected to right Do you know what I mean? It's I apologize. I wanted to be there in person, but I had a meeting right until 7 o'clock 7 15 So I can't see what paul and and collin are doing but this is language that predates This particular impact fee in the ordinance So I think councillor we have this challenge that I think these is this is cleaning up an ordinance that probably deserved to be Clean up regardless So it was just just like what is the interest rate that would be used to calculate the accrual that's all right The third thing was um We had talked about Non-profit construction not having to pay for their permits until the co So would that also apply here to the impact fees? So at the time of the co That's when they would pay their impact fee. Sure. So let me answer both of the questions I'll take the second one first, which is yes the the Change to the ordinance that you're looking at at your next meeting for the um the Big a affordable housing that the city is involved with would apply to all impact fees as being charged at that later date including These impact fees because it says all impact fees. So uh recreation transportation now school, etc um to the first question We would have to work out the math on exactly what the accrued interest is the good news in this particular case of the school um is that because as um Uh as a superintendent described it's going to the voters this march The actual known cost will be fully in place before we start charging anything to the development community So if for some reason those costs have adjusted and there's It's lower then we would still have the opportunity to come back to council before it starts being charged But it would be something we'd have to calculate for Refunds if it ever did come around and we'd probably take a blended um interest rate from the Time of accrual forward Or time of receipt forward I meant, okay The another question is I noticed is it maybe it's a draft Proposal so you've mentioned tables sc1 and sd1 is it those were just misnomers We type the word sd for a lot of subdivisions So that was probably a typo on my part from just it's like adding a q for seq it sometimes happens But yes, we will correct that So then the last question I have is I I really didn't understand that last the last sc or sd1 and 2 the the um The credit the credit table. So is the concept that In the year that you would pay an impact fee For example, let's say on a four-bedroom house. It's $12,000 You would expect you you also would be liable for let's say it's time perfectly So you also have to pay full property property taxes and part of that is about 70% is the education tax So it was the concept that you would receive some credit back For the impact fee that you'd paid versus your I just I don't get it john. Do you want to take a first? Crack at that answer as you Put the table together Yeah, sure the annual annual amount of Property tax that would be expended for the zems bond is as estimated at $250,000 per year And we know that because there's a fixed principle and interest payment And then we have projected how much revenue might be Collected by the growth rate and the types of bedroom households in the city That $250,000 per year is a fraction of the total assessed value of the households in the city And so we've been able to calculate how much an average household Is assessed for and how much we think their property tax burden would be that is the part that would contribute to that $250,000 And so it's only that marginal amount of their property tax that is discounted off of their impact fee So that $12,000 per unit is then that $12,000 Subtracts then the amount of property taxes That might have accrued prior to their development So any any land that develops from year 2023 to the future They will have been paying property taxes on that land empty land Let's say that was also contributing to the zems Then once you develop that household The household is assessed at a much higher value now that you have a house on it Going forward that house will be annually paying some of their property tax to the zems So both the past property tax and the future net value of future taxes will be subtracted from that impact fee And so would that result in a like a custom Property tax bill or no, it winds up being in a credit on your impact of the impact fee at the time So depending on which year you come in if you come in in a later year You'll get more credit for the land value as john was describing the first title And if you come in in an earlier year because do the house will have existed for more time You'll get a higher credit on the impact fee essentially it assures that there's not a double dipping happening That's all I have. Thank you. Okay. All right. So why don't we hear From you two about the the draft ordinance Yeah, are we ready for that? Sure. Absolutely. So we took the recommendations of the school district And tried to really just add a section to our impact fee ordinance You'll see that it's subsection f to section three of our of our impact fee ordinance So the other impact fees are already contained in this ordinance. What you see in front of you is just the the new section And it it Adds this section which would incorporate the school impact fee onto Properties that are built after the effective date that On a per bedroom basis or on properties that after the effective date add bedrooms Um, and with both of those uh criteria being if if either one of those criteria is met Um, we would apply the impact fees that is outlined and currently in table s c one And just to add to that point just to be clear about what is meant by um The development taking place as drafted it would go just as the same as all the other impact fees Which is it is at the time Um that they apply for a zoning permit. So that's the effective days associated with that. It's not Um, so if something received an approval five years ago or 10 years ago for multiple buildings It would be when they come in for the permit to build the individual building is the effectiveness of this That makes sense So whether it started its drb process next we uh next year or it was say You know something like um cider mill two that had approval years ago This would be a Applied to each house as they come online regardless of when the drb approval was When they come in for a permit to build Just for a brief explanation of table sc one. So if you're building a two bedroom Uh dwelling unit you would pay an impact fee of 4,636 um minus credits of course and if you are um So you have a two bedroom dwelling unit and you're going to be adding a third unit you would take uh You would you would assess it at the impact fee of 8,929 and then subtract what was currently in existence So you would you'd subtract the two bedroom impact fee from that So it would be in that instance If you have a two bedroom and you're adding a bedroom You take 8,929 impact fee and then you subtract the 4,636 impact fee The impact fees could can be used uh for the description Of building the zems of installing the zems only because that's what the the ordinance is is laying out Matt has a question just a question about adding another bedroom obviously if you're Building a bedroom in a basement or home, but what if you're adding an accessory dwelling unit on the property? believe that an accessory dwelling unit would be considered a dwelling unit so it would be um The zero or one bedroom it would not make for more bedrooms in the house But it would be the establishment of a new dwelling unit It's on the same parcel same it would still be a new dwelling that would be assessed the new the zero to one If it was less unless specifically exempted by the council and the ordinance it would be applied Okay, thank you Okay, are there Keep going then. I'm sorry The last small component We mean there's some adjustments that have made just to the language of the ordinance just to update it to include this school impact fee um one thing that we did add to the ordinance was Uh to contemplate an agreement between the city and the school district to work out how the fees are Transferred over from the city who will be collecting the fees and distributing them to the school district We contemplated rather than having that in the ordinance itself that we would reference the school impact fee agreement that the The city and the school district would would work out Between now and passage of this ordinance So an agreement would cover things like how frequently a payment should be made is it with every single house? Is it a handful of times a year? Who's responsible for which part of the accounting that kind of information? So that's an agreement and not an addendum to the ordinance Correct because it doesn't affect the implementation of the ordinance itself. It's really just how how is the money Accounted for correctly. All right So so essentially we we put together this ordinance. We ran it by the the school district Team to see if it met their expectations Um, at least in draft form it did. I think we can incorporate if you If the council wishes to incorporate an affordable housing exemption to this We can certainly do that between now and when it's Published for the the public hearing Yeah, i'm in favor of that. I I would support that I think there's at least I think three or four of us aren't keen on the additional 4% No I also But I know jessie would like to comment on that because that's part of I mean, I think this is going to be more work for our tax department for sure Yeah, so Totally your prerogative whether to keep it in or not. We're talking about the difference of 100 to 500 dollars per impact fee You know I as I you've heard me say with other ordinance changes you've considered as more and more we add New expectations on city staff without a new Without any enforcement mechanism or a new revenue stream to pay for that enforcement mechanism It ultimately either comes down to increases in the property tax Or lack of enforcement and administration. So just want to call that out Certainly, you're prerogative to take the administrative fee out of this ordinance. Why can't the fee be part of the Take it from the take rather than in an additive Um, I think it's very we could do that. We would need to redo the tables to in order it would We need to redo the tables in order to collect the revenue stream the school needs for the ZEMS right Does this impact fee? You know replicate other other such You know administrative fees that people have to pay in order for For the administrative costs this or is this something new? So we certainly collect impact fees now and allocate them out to our our purposes within our Accounting and bank banking system and this is a new an additional fee to that. So that is new And an additional accounting process to segregate them additionally and then Do the administrative transfer process and reconciliation process with the school district? You are welcome to take it out. I just want to make it very No, I don't understand. I'm not I'm not trying to argue one way or the other And when we collect impact fees, do we have you know kind of the two? Um, you know ledgers where we're putting into this is to cover the administrative costs And this is to actually go towards the police and the fire and the recreation currently Currently we don't charge administrative fee with any of the impact fees. It's something that um john slayson had Noted to us that um, that's the choice that has been made thus far Um, it's something that the council if it chose to could look at across the board The state law as john correct me if I'm wrong is silent on the subject as to being Encouraged or discouraged so it's It's eligible So the question before this council is How are we going to make sure that our staff have the resources in order to do this job? Do we You know have it fee-based or do we have it property tax-based? Well, I I think I need more information So I mean when you're collecting checks from people for development, right? They're going to give you a check for this from that and and I mean you're going to like Take a check and it's going to get deposited to an account for the school district, right? And you're going to record that amount on some ledger somewhere so I mean You collect a lot of money from a lot of sources now So this is just one more so I don't understand where you need 4% for that. I'm just I'm just asking, you know arbitrarily Yeah, um Under in our enterprise funds for, you know, our sewer hookup fees for example, that's essentially a an impact fee What we do on the back end similar to your point Megan about whether it's property taxes or Through an increased fee We do try charge an administrative cost to the enterprise funds Which that which the rate payers then pay back to the city Similarly theoretically we could also charge a similar administrative fee again on the property tax side to the school district That could be for For example tax collection. We don't charge any administrative fee to the school district City treasurer services. We don't charge any fee to the school district So there are other ways potentially to capture those capture those fees This was just right before us inconvenient Well, you know We've all said we don't have enough staff to do what we Ask them to do So here's another example if you do a little bit more for No more money Or offset. So that's Kind of where you we need to wrap it into the budget Pardon me or put it in the budget. That's where the property taxes would cover it or or we agree that yeah, it's a property tax Expenditure so So what is you know, what direction would you like them to Do you want them to I still have another problem with if you're adding it one unit like another bedroom You can put a small addition on a house, you know And and the the calculation for how you come up with that cost of that extra bedroom That doesn't make sense to me if it's you're adding one bedroom to me. It should be the 2748 It shouldn't be the difference between two and three, you know three So I I just right off the bat. I have a problem with that. It just seems You know, if you have a house that's been around for 50 years, right? And it's a three bedroom house and you happen to add a bedroom right I don't understand why The difference between the The four and the three you're adding one bedroom in terms of an impact for you're just adding one bedroom So you think it should just be one better. It should just be one bedroom To me it makes sense what they're doing because you're You're creating a four bedroom house in the case of but you've already had a three bedroom house for quite a long time And you've already been paying your property taxes education taxes Well, they're not forcing you to pay for the four bedroom house They're forcing you to pay for the difference between a three bedroom and a four bedroom house That is a much larger number than just adding one bedroom If you're at talking about the one bedroom, you know impact for a possible single student or whatever it is, right? Then that's the 2748 So to me, I don't agree with that that method methodology, you know, if you're going to add a two bedroom addition Charge the 46 36. Just be straightforward and don't take a difference What if you what if you take a bedroom and turn it into something else? I turn it into an office. Do you get a credit? I mean, I've done that. We turned a bedroom into a bathroom Well, I mean that's something for the home anymore planning and zoning people to deal with when they determine how many bedrooms they have, you know Is that part of the We're talking about new constructions. Well, that's true But but if you add another bedroom on that's not that's new construction But it's on an old house and in re yet realistically It's only going to be enforced if they come and ask for a permit because they're going up or they're going out If they are carving up the inside of their home And if they have to raise their hand to ask for a permit and also pay this they're probably are going to be in the shadows And we're not going to knock on doors and count bedrooms I assume Well, unless you're doing reappraisal, right? Then you do At least that's what we did but then you but then you'd still have to collate that information with It just seems unenforceable unless they're coming for a permit already And then they'll find out that they oh for the extra bedroom that they're building But that's might be a minor problem In the grand scheme of things. Yeah, I think you're flagging an important subject area Well, it sounds like we are interested in more detail about the additional bedroom and what the cost well, right, so Is that right or people? I'm happy with the experience. You're happy with okay I think that the reasoning that the math has laid out the way it is is that the report that John Slason and his team had put together looked at statistical averages of the number of students that that um Come from the various different number of bedrooms and so to be as Even in the treatment as possible a four bedrooms a four bedroom Regardless of whether it went from not existing to four bedroom to Somebody added a room to make it four bedroom and then in you know two years time sold that house to two different family Um There are different ways of doing this certainly this was how Collin and I felt that it most reflected the um the analysis reports, but There are multiple ways of assembling this and as you know, we talked about the affordable housing There's if if there are aspects of this that the council is not comfortable with then It can be modified Can yes, can I ask Jonathan a question? Jonathan Slason. Hi I know you do this work All over the state and all over the world probably What other Vermont communities have similar impact fees on new development? Schools not so much. I'm several communities around chinin county have impact fees and Much like paul mentioned. We already have recreation and transportation in police fire in in south burlington But uh williston when uski's considering it burlington has had them for years Even st. Albans, georgia of milton Hinesburg there's a few others that have them as well, but primarily chinin centric Given the growth that's been happening in the state, but I but about schools particularly jonathan Sal burlington still has school impact fees. Uh, and I don't know if williston I don't think so Um, they might have had they might have had one in sunset it But there are not many communities that have school impact fees and from out at this point. Okay. Thank you Well, you have to be building a new school or Or doing some addition or yeah And it isn't happening in many communities. It isn't happening. Most of them the numbers are going down They're probably going to have rental property on there in their schools. Yeah So we're an anomaly for now for now Other thoughts what direction do you what do you think we want you to do? Thus far we've got um, correct the sc's and the sd's Yeah, uh remove the four percent administrative fee and add in an exemption for permanently affordable housing Okay That's what we have from you this so far as guidance But we also don't have the guidance yet that you want to proceed to a public hearing. So That would be if you choose that would be your next piece Well, I I think you summarize the concerns that people would like to see in a A new draft can I just wrap my head around this? If I heard correctly from Jonathan We don't need to alter the tables by moving the permanently affordable and inclusionary housing from From the the fees right But we would if we were to put the four percent or two and a half percent or two and a quarter Of the of the collection fees if we made it off the top rather than in addition to To technically they would be paying a higher Technically the base fee would go up and therefore all the tables be small, you know a small change would have to be made Okay Is that what you'd like to see? Well, I don't support adding four percent on top of that But I also sympathize with our city manager because I believe everything she says about The adding more jobs without the income is going to be a strain and will ultimately affect the property taxes I get that So can we take it off the top and what does that look like? What is the difference? I don't understand It's it's a part of an optics thing imagine if you're paying you you just built the home and you're paying this impact fee Whether you have kids or not And then the city is asking for another four percent on top of that Just to take your money I don't agree with it Would it be separated out or would it just be part of the Impact fee would you say I'm just wondering no, I would separate it out So it would be separated out I think it just my guidance to the city because of accounting You have your impact fee that would fund the zems and the bond and you would have the separate accounting for the administrative transparent To be honest. Yeah, well, I don't support it What to include an additional four percent to have the four percent clearly, you know going to another You know right and that's what they said it would right that's how the accounting so it would be transparent I guess the question is is that a An amount of money that we want to assess Or come out of property through this impact fee or related to the impact fee Or do we want to just when we get to the bottom line of what our Tax increase will be for 2024 right? It's included with the host of a whole host of other things in our budget. Yeah in our budget That's my preference So jesse the and andrew I guess the The idea would be that when this impact fee You know comes to an end that that four percent would go away Well wouldn't be paid anymore, right? Yeah, they wouldn't be so the need would go away or Right, I mean or is it something that would become You know kind of rely rely on it and therefore it would have to be Absorbed through property tax increase So I think the challenge with this kind of This kind of supporting administration through a percent which I I will continue to advocate for as we add new things We are adding new resources Is that we're not necessarily talking about adding a new staff person We certainly don't need a new staff person to collect just this impact fee It's how we in the aggregate add all these little things that add Bird in that the rest of the property taxpayers aren't benefiting from and what are the what's how do we Diversify our revenue streams enough to carry that capacity So my position would be it when the education if and when the education impact fee Goes away Then that would end because it's not a new service. We are providing anymore to the government system. I do want to I think You know the way the superintendent and I have been talking about this from the beginning it's is this is a phase one of education impact fees, you know, this is a eight to ten To 15 years solution violet. This is not our long-term Infrastructure solution for our education system So I think what we're talking about right now is relatively small collection for An interim solution. I think when that that that fee may look different if we're talking about You know a much bigger impact fee numbers In that case, then I don't think we can make a straight face that it costs a hundred dollars A collection to process it and account for it and work with the school on it and blah blah blah and the fee would Change at that point And I think it's important for us to underscore that there is going to be cost to the average taxpayer for these zems as well so I mean if it satisfies Matt and tim to have it simply added and we have to Adjust the table can that be done in a time for us to warn it for the annual town meeting? so To have the four percent added on to the base the the base impact fee so Without having conferred with the team my I think if the numbers are going to change the council should see what the numbers are before you warn a public hearing This does not need to be This this doesn't go to the voters on town meeting day. This is just an ordinance that you all approve have it done by July one Is that when the first but it might impact their bond vote? It might I don't know So it could impact the messaging around the bond vote um, so in that case would need to be done by middle of the public hearing would need to be Conducted and you would need to make a decision by the middle of january. Okay um But that does give us time to come back to you the july one date and the dissent and the january one date Those are what we have proposed now in the ordinance those, you know, we're trying to get those Dates out there into the community. So the folks who are currently putting together performers for development are starting to integrate this this um Additional fee and they're planning so that warning You know with tonight's meeting with a public hearing warning in the future is out there I think that we can hold that day even if we get into a public hearing in the middle of January, okay, I don't think that I mean that's that's me speak. I don't know if I let her draw there The team feels differently about that You're not obligated to give that head head Runway, it's a thing we were trying to do to clearly communicate to the community What they could expect in the future So I guess the question Sorry Go ahead. I didn't mean to interrupt. I'd love to respond to that if if now's an okay time regarding timing The um, you know, the the the point that was just brought up is is pretty significant to the district You know, we want to be communicative around this and timing is really critical here If we're going to go out for um to the voters for bond in march Um, and we have our school budget being voted on it is really critical that we have Early conversations about these impact fees You know, I I don't think that the average citizen of south burlington will understand necessarily at the polls that The bond money and zems are are linked to one another And that they've been carefully designed to support our schools And that it's not a double dipping and so the conversation that that jesse and I have had and and what you all heard me say Earlier when we first started just started discussing this topic Is that the district would prefer the soonest possible hearing time that's available Um, there has been discussion about the potential of that being as soon as december 21st if that's something that um can happen in january You know then fine As I understand that would push the the collection from that july 1st date on the further Back we go, but but you all you know, I don't know the timing of your ordinances. So I'll just reiterate from the district's perspective. It's important to separate this not only from bond vote and and school budget voting But really looking at the timing here. We need to get started with these projects because our student we do not have space in our schools for our students period at orchard and Rick markot and so we cannot continue on with the projects until we're start starting to realize some of these fees So with our fiscal year starting july 1st, it would be critical To have the impact fees timing so that we could start realizing some of these fees at least that 50% if that's what the council approves As as early as july 1st. So With the delay of hearings, it's it's you know, the district's concern that that would delay the funding necessary For a start of a school year Um, which would uh, you know, when we're beginning the next school year I'd like to have these sums in place so that teachers and students can start their learning in these much needed spaces. So to be succinct as the district's, you know, really clear request that Whatever timing the or the the ordinance readings and the hearings Be scheduled that they allow us to Um start receiving funding so that we can get these sums in place before next school year Thank you Okay, well, I think we would want to have this completed so that the july 1 and the january 1 dates um Can be utilized I I think sometimes there's some optics with hustling things through in a really quick way That the public can see as They really didn't know about it. They didn't have time to Comment fully The week before christmas is not always The best time to engage the public in another public hearing. So I I think if we put it off a little bit So we do have time to maybe generate some other numbers And even have more conversation publicly about this It could work to your advantage I agree with that statement and you know, I think about Was paul described the projects that have been approved by the drb Ostensibly they've been financed But no permanent is pulled Certainly, I want to make sure those homes are built and wouldn't want and I don't think these impact fees are going to stop that from happening But I certainly would want some communication or at least some some testimony from those that are ready to pull a permit And are looking at these these fees and Ensuring that those buildings do get built and just to be clear The timing of when you choose to hold a public hearing and if you choose to adopt the ordinance is Disconnected from the timing of charging half or the full impact fee You can set those dates of charging Completely independently of what the dates of the hearings are so you could have it be the day that you adopt the ordinance You could have it be july 1st and january 1st Right There's if if one moves the other does not have to move with it. It's entirely your choice. This is a This gave a seven ish month Lead in From the date of today's meeting. That's sort of what we were Working with for the half fee and then in six months after that you can choose to keep that you could choose to say that's Too slow or too late That's entirely independent of the hearing date itself just to be clear for you all Yes, violet Thank you, paul. That's extremely helpful Information so so then, you know, I would I would say to the council You know, I would prefer that we have as much time to discuss this with the community as possible And if we don't need that seven month lead time after we've had The public hearings then then why have it why not take more time for discussion now? If we don't have to have a set number of days before the impact fees can be Realized by the district That that seems to meet the needs of both the community I certainly do want thick engagement around this and I and I don't want to limit Discussion or public comment Although, you know, I do think we've received pretty significant support for these impact fees on our end anyway so You know, it seems to me if this is something we can do in january and it won't delay The beginning of impact fees starting to be received by the district And it would allow us to have greater communication and allow the public to hear more discussions about this Then I think that seems advisable from from my perspective Thank you. Great So is that We agreeable to a later date Yeah, so public hearing In january in january where we would have the administrative fee Yes, we would have the new language When will we develop that language on another meeting between then and now? Yeah, so I would recommend that we bring it back to you one more time. Just so you're seeing a current version Instead of public hearing from them if we from then January beginning of january To get back to us and then so I guess I would Just scheduling off the cuff here. I would say december 19th We should keep as another discussion point for you to set a public hearing that night And then we could either do the public hearing on january 17th Which is your final budget discussion night or you could do a special meeting on the 23rd Right before the steering committee meeting which may enable the school board to participate also in that conversation So those are some off-the-cuff options for you, okay I I like the connecting it to a steering committee meeting Because it is sort of a joint endeavor. The only thing is that there are fewer public members present at a steering committee meeting it'll be duly warned I know but Nevertheless, there are still fewer and my last statement about the four percent is that it says up to four percent So we that's what this says is that the administrative fee not be more than four percent So we have some negotiation room there and my other Proposals that we just have we just have a flat fee You know, whether it's a hundred or 125 150 dollars per permit impact fee just a flat fee rather than a percentage That's my other proposal as a as a counter offer Because because whether you're processing a check for 12,535 or 2748 to me it's the same amount of work Right. Yeah. Yeah, good point Would the council like us to look at a couple options like that to bring to your december 19th meeting for the 19th? That would be great. We'll work with john to identify whether if it's a flat fee Whether that needs to be in the table or whether that can be separate from the table Just can I just clarify tim's point? So you're suggesting per still per unit not per development Per can per permit per permit. Yeah per Yeah, and the the last thing question I have for violet is It says in here that the impact fees shall be distributed to the district on an annual basis Does that mean just once per year and is that all that you require and does that satisfy your needs? I thank you for that question. Um, I think we have some flexibility on that piece You know, we we work with the city and and the city works with us. Um, I don't know if that is a A typical way that impact fees are typically dispersed. Um, but you know, if it if it's mutually beneficial We're happy to to have conversation on on modifying that That's something that we think could be in the agreement as well And that way it's not subject to the ordinance itself It's subject to the council and school board agreeing what makes most sense administratively Okay, we can we can have those conversations between now and your next meeting to good Okay, not to needle it but one more clarifying point If if I'm building a duplex It's one permit or two It is one zoning permit In most cases so one Paying per units For each but if I'm only paying the city if if under tim's possible scenario questions there, right? So if you're building a duplex, are you paying impact fees for each side? Right. So let me take it to a much larger building. Uh, you're building a 50 plex It is one permit Um, which incorporates The impact fees Of all dwelling units in it. So it would be 50 times a recreation impact fee 50 times let's say they're all two bedrooms 50 times two bedrooms So if we charged it by permit it would be one time for the permit if we charged it by unit It would be for each dwelling unit, whether it's one or both houses of a duplex or each of the 50 in a 50 plex So under his scenario If you're just if you're getting yes, the impact fee would be based on units times 50 But you're only writing one check. So it's only one 100 dollars not A percentage of the total impact fee right if it was a much larger it would be well, that would sort of change my Um, thoughts about Yeah, well, they're going to come back with a couple options Yeah, we'll look at a couple of options on that. Um, there's pros and cons to each of those in terms of the amount of work It's you know, it's one permit. So it's less work in that respect, but it's identifying the bedrooms associated with each of them um, so it's And tracking it for that but we'll if it's counsel's pleasure We will come with a couple of scenarios for you and one of the scenarios is not at all Okay, sounds good. That sounds good. Thank you Okay, well Jonathan and violet. Thank you very much And I guess you'll probably want to join us on the 19th As we look at some additional language Good. Okay. We'll have a great Thanksgiving All right, good enough. Thank you. All right, we're going to take a five-minute break And then we'll move on to item 11, which is the encampment ordinance once again The south burlington city council meeting of monday, november 21st 2022 And we'll continue with item 11 Which is receiving a proposed encampment ordinance and provide direction to staff so we're going to hear from Collin McNeil the city attorney and shawn burk our police chief So welcome Just by way of introduction. This is not a first reading for you all tonight This is a very new thing for our community So we want to bring it to you for feedback and fine-tuning before we brought it to you for our first reading Okay, we appreciate that and also just one and good evening one one moment one piece of clarification This is not an ordinance. It would be a policy So so just just a little bit of background We have an ordinance already on the books that prohibits camping in our parks and city-owned land The difficulty with that it really doesn't set out the procedure of how we're supposed to enforce it What we're supposed to do with people's property If we come across an encampment How we provide notice to individuals Who are camping on our city lands And what kind of notice is required and for instance if we Are to accept property or or the personal belongings of of individuals How long do we keep that property? What rights do they have to access it and get it back to them? And so we developed a policy here that you have in front of you This policy is based on Largely based on the policy that was adopted by portland main And portland main largely based on what was in to come to washington. I spoke with their city attorney's office They also thought that to come to washington got it from someone else So it's it's It's a policy that has been working its way around municipalities We obviously tailored it to somewhat to fit our needs and to adjust to our To our city But it's largely based on on those communities and and speaking with the the folks in in portland main They said it's it's it's working. It's been in place for a little while. It's addressing some they had a more significant problem with individuals Campments in their city parks and and this has been a good way for them to address The issues that they were having there. How long have they had been using this policy A couple years. I don't have my assume is it's fairly recent, you know in the past couple years I think nationally these have been these a lot of Municipalities are in the similar situation that that we are in right now where they they have prohibitions of camping in their parks But they don't have a policy on how to carry that out. And so that's been developed Recently within the past few years So portland main is in the same situation. So so we developed this this policy to really to bring it to you to to really recognize that As for you to consider a way to move forward and really enforcing our policy in really kind of a progressive way And so that's that's what we bring for before you tonight Okay, well I read through it. I I thought it looked pretty good So I I don't have any specific like I think you should do this differently or that differently Um I can outline a couple different components of it one is that in most of it applies to city land city parks and city owned land It requires notice before an encampment is removed it also relies heavily on on service providers to Inform the inform the city of whether there are Areas where people can go So it in a way it prohibits the removal of an encampment if there is not a place in the area where a person can go The exception to that is certain areas that are listed in the ordinance obstruction areas that are identified immediate hazard areas What has been identified as emphasis areas? The obstruction areas are for instance, it could be defined as a sidewalk a roadway, perhaps the The middle of a soccer field Or you know the way to first base on a baseball field that can be removed without notice Emphasis areas are our components of or areas of city owned land that have had Camping there in the past and has been removed through processes and notice And it's been kind of a repeat issue It's been identified as an emphasis area And then at that point once it areas identified as an emphasis area Campsites could be removed from those areas as long as they are well posted without notice and the immediate hazard is It takes some discretion on the part of people who are enforcing the policy, but it would be dangers to people who are in them or Others who are come in contact with it. So that's just some overview of how the policy works The way it's written right now is that if a campsite is removed We would be obligated to keep property for approximately a week before if no one claimed it We could then you know dispose of it if it's personal property And it outlines what is considered personal property and what is not considered personal property as well So I have a question for the chief Part of this I I thought um positively included Identifying support services and not just you know going in with your you know guns out and um Cleaning it up, but really trying to work with those residents or those campers or whatever you call them um And I'm curious about The funding for that. Do you have um Have you thought about a budget line item for? Carrying out this policy Is your mic on I think it's been two years that I've actually been here right and not on the screen So and usually I talk a lot loud enough. So a great question. It's exactly uh, how we use our community outreach team our partnership with howard currently even when we Deal with these encampments on private property Because they are plugged into all the wraparound services. Generally, they know the folks that are Camped whether it's on public or private land and it's effective. So as long as that uh synergy still exists between Our community and uh howard. I don't see a problem in resourcing this policy Okay, and they I assume have the Handle on whether there are um other places for them to go Exactly and you know, they've actually had to really be mindful about that because the uh, Currently the hotel voucher program has changed a little bit. Um, so they're the most knowledgeable and we rely on them exclusively for that guidance Okay Other thoughts or questions by council members? Yeah, um chief Burke. Is this what you need going forward to enforce the ordinance? This would be immensely helpful. Thank you Okay, well, that's good kim. Yeah, I think this is really important. Um, I think that burlington learned the hard way with sears lane And their emphasis area right now is a Champlain parkway, right? Because that whole area is torn up with you know, a 50 foot pile of gravel and dirt And it's totally in construction. So I think this is really well written I think it's very sensitive to people that are camping out. It's sensitive to their their belongings To the reasons why they're there and it tries to hook them up with services And I think this is the I think is the best that we can do in terms of trying to create this policy. So I appreciate the work Yeah, good Agreed. I just saw a 7.2.2. That doesn't have anything next to it. So I noticed that earlier today. We'll we'll correct that Okay All right, sandy duly did want to make a comment or ask a question. She's online Oh, can you hear me? Yes, we can. Thank you Okay, good evening and I appreciate all the work that went into this I have, um Compared it with Burlington's, um Policy on the same subject And also Montpeliers um, and I would Before I enter my comments, I'd be interested in the difference between a policy and and we're next because um This policy gets into some um Well, my question is if Is it binding if it's a policy if these procedures aren't followed and Someone wanted to, um Raise a complaint or or something Would would the city is the city legally bound to follow A policy that isn't isn't in ordinance, but that's that's one question But there were a couple one of the things is I maybe both Burlington or maybe just Montpelier It had a nice preface that said it's not the intent of this policy to criminalize the Act of an individual to Sleep on public property And and I think it's really recognizing the situation that some people find themselves in In the current housing crisis. So It's there was a little more sensitivity to that Uh, I don't know how How um How workable this would be but there's a proposal to modify the Burlington ordinance to Not enforce it from October 1st to May 1st If the individual is not eligible for emergency shelter Um, so I wanted to offer that Um, I also I think the seven days for redemption of your private property, especially for someone who's Uh without housing and I would assume their top priority is trying to find housing where they could put their personal property Is is too short of both Burlington and Montpelier allow 30 days to Come and get your property And um So, uh, also Montpelier on the identification of a campsite The very first thing they have to do is to make a referral to outreach services For the individuals that are using the the site and That that just seemed to be a great thing to have in writing. Um, it was That was the very first thing you did Um, of course if there's criminal activity or something like that that would uh preempt that and the other thing I noticed is um I'm pretty sure this is in yes, this is in the Burlington Uh ordinance and they allow The there's a decision of removal and the notice on Burlington provides three days for The individuals living there to to provide to object to the decision to Um, remove the the campsite. So these were some Additional things that I saw in in those There are a number of other Um Differences that might be considered but these these were the most important But again, thank you for your work on this Okay If I could just point out one thing in in section in section three of the ordinance it it does outline a policy statement which Views those campsites through the lens of not criminalizing people creating shelter due to lack of housing So we the policy is specific that uh, it is This is not criminal activity. I think the purpose also um illustrates the um Sensitivity it says these principles include establishing a multi-sector response Conducting comprehensive and coordinated outreach and addressing the basic needs and providing storage um And I find it pretty sensitive And if no housing is available, right there there is a provision to allow them to stay and there's also Just as the chief said we have our outreach our community outreach team That's right there and has been there since the very beginning even before the notice is posted So I would assume that any belongings That need to be retrieved the outreach people would be working with those, you know with those residents to To locate and to to retrieve those items With regards to the 30 days I mean, I don't know. I don't know what to say. How did you come up with seven? As a reasonable man, I thought it was a little short too, but 30 days seems like I mean you need maybe a warehouse Sure, sure. We did we did talk about it. Um, and seven was what was in the portland main into comal washington policies 30 days was in the berlington um So it's a it's a topic of conversation for how long we we want to keep it We haven't had the opportunity to to vet it with public works or whoever will be storing the equipment to see what our capacity is To be able to actually store store property on where that would be done So um, just a component of our discussion as I think this thing moves along. I think that we can have that Well, maybe looking at um, you know a little bit more time might be um Useful there was also the notice announcing that they were going to be removing the property and they would gave them time to remove it ahead of It being removed Yes, so I think chris sort of indicated to me earlier on so go to chris and then emily and then Vince I guess Thank you chris trombly 16 Du Bois here personally Chief Burke. Thank you for putting this forward. Um, it's encouraging to see a standardization of how we handle You know the these situations um, if the police department would be open to Further engagement with some community stakeholders or if that's already happened if you could Elaborate it on that the 30 day policy For the retention of personal belongings, you know, I do share a concern on that piece That is something that's consistent with berlington as well as Portland, Oregon and some other cities once you kind of see the ordinance and start doing some research 30 days was something that stood out um, understanding the difference between an ordinance and a policy there is kind of a Ordnance has more teeth policies It would be helpful to understand that a little bit And also we haven't had an opportunity to discuss this At the affordable housing committee if there was maybe an opportunity we could discuss or refer to community stakeholders maybe like a cb oeo Who's who's really a special in this area? Thank you so much. Okay. Well christis was they started the conversation with this is the First time we have discussed this. It's not a hearing. They're not proposing this and we're not considering passing it tonight But rather this is so I think your comments of outreach would be met with Approval and encouragement. So thank you and I that's what I'm trying to express. Thank you Okay, great. Thank you Okay, emily cross now Representative elect cross now. Uh, he's avenue Yes, but I'm here in my own capacity, uh tonight. Well, um I I swear I did not coordinate with the others but my biggest, uh Concern that stuck out to me is as well the um storage and um I sent the council, um earlier today, uh Both Montpelier and Burlington and um, if I was to make a comment. I would prefer to have 30 days as well. Um Similar to to Montpelier and Burlington. Um, I think that would uh make for a stronger Ordinance and support folks who are transitioning. Um, but again, I don't know the capacity. Um, I have met with chief Burke But not since reading this ordinance. So that would be my one piece of feedback To consider. Thank you. Great. Thank you Vince Balduk Yes, thank you. Thank you very much. Uh, and we didn't coordinate this at all. Uh, but um, I wanted to express appreciation for the very careful attention being paid to People's belongings To most of us who have never been homeless. Um, it looks like junk But um, according to the research that I've read on homelessness On one of the most difficult things about being homeless is that you lose your sense of your past And being able to continue to own some of those precious tokens You know symbols that you had of a prior self like a photo album or maybe maybe just a you know a single picture or I Lord knows what but for many people that is a vitally important connection that they have Some experts on this have suggested that if we want to help the mental stability of the homeless The best thing that we could do is to uh rent storage facilities for them just to keep their stuff So my point is thank you for doing this. I appreciate your sensitivity to the importance of those symbols for people And the longer period of time would be better. Thank you very much. Thank you Yes, please Yes, please Okay, um, i'm gave nelson. I live in 80 eastwood drive south brunton um, I also I'm happy that the goal is to avoid criminalizing houselessness and trying to Take steps to preserve people's property. Um I do have some concerns That in some, you know, I understand that there's currently not specific policy Um, I do have some concerns with this policy um The first one Is that I have a a concern and i'm not sure how founded it is Uh, but I have a concern that um So there there's a uh a part of the uh policy that states that If people if there is an option for shelter um There is one path and and then if there's not there's the other more hands-off approach My concern is that if people are choosing To uh, not choose the shelter Um, why are they do why are they making that choice? And is there a legitimate reason? Uh, that the shelter may be inadequate. Um, is there someone I don't I don't know a good reason, but I'm not a person who has experienced this, but um, you know, if there's someone in the shelter that they have a conflict with that's just off the top of my head One wording in the policy that bothered me was in the definition of an obstruction Which is uh 5.5 So it specifically states that uh people Is is one thing that can be an obstruction Uh that are on a public sidewalk And so I just sort of I mean this is a nitpick. I think but I think people that are on a public sidewalk Uh considering that to be an obstruction is a bit of an overreach in my opinion Uh, again, it's kind of a nitpick. Um I actually think that modifies Related to a campsite That is on a public sidewalk. Okay. Thank you. Yeah, that's so I Yeah, I I yeah, I don't think it means you're standing on the sidewalk. Yeah, okay. Yeah, sorry for my misunderstanding At least that's how I read that. Um, is that okay? That yeah, so that was my reading of it, but yeah, I that could be totally wrong. Um I think that Another concern that I have is If a campsite is I mean again, this could be another thing where I don't fully understand the the policy But uh another concern I have is that upon the removal of a campsite if so if the people in the campsite elect to Not choose the uh the option for a shelter provided um They will just go somewhere else And my concern is that You know, is the other place that they go any better? Um, are we just pushing people around arbitrarily? Um, that's another concern that I have Um, I have the same concern about property being destroyed after one week Um, I think 30 30 30 days is a good time period. Um I think that Um, one concern I have is um the reality of people who are Living in campsites and are asked to leave and do not want to leave And the violence that this would require to enforce Force them to leave. Um, this is a I think reality reality, you know situation that we Unfortunately have to consider with this policy And ultimately I personally do not support the removal of campsites unless they propose unless they pose a real and actual danger to The people in the campsites Or others near the site or other people in the community And that danger shouldn't be based on assumed criminality Of the people in the site Yes, or or danger to the environment as well. Uh, thanks for your time. Do I stay up here? No, unless No, unless anyone has a question a follow-up, but thank you very much. Thank you We appreciate your comments Sure, yeah Are there oh no, are there any other comments from the public or Well, it sounds like there's interests for some additional outreach some thoughts that um About how long you take keep this stuff. I don't know how much stuff or even How many campsites there are in this city? Do you have a handle on are we talking about I mean we heard about one near a church Are there others so each year the The point in time count is done generally in january So, um, it'd be premature for me to guess but there's more than one There's usually, you know, any anywhere from eight to 12 that I can think of off the top of my head Most of them again are on private land So this only applies to city-owned land Is that right? Correct. So how do you how? What policy would do we use if someone is illegally? I guess camping on You know my backyard and I don't want them there I mean, we don't necessarily have a policy on that but it's We have property rights and I think that would it would probably fall to the owner of the property Yes, so, you know in those circumstances we work with the property owner and try to broker the the dismantling of the camp But again, it could Really degrade to a point where it amounts to a criminal trespass and then we would have to work with the prosecutor's office on that and Figure out how we're going to remove it Do you use howard mental health with that with those situations as well community outreach or community outreach? Yes So in some ways the approach is similar Identical Well, that's good to know. Yes so All right Are there any other comments or thoughts Well, thank you for bringing this forward because it is an issue and it appears as if You really want to Do the right thing um and have it successful Sandy has another comment, but could you also As you continue to discuss and think about this Share with us the difference between Why you want this to be a policy and not attached to the ordinance and you don't necessarily have to do it tonight But that seems like that We should get the language correct So the public understands how we're going about this Just initially a policy would give us more flexibility to Be able to move with the changing times as they go forward into the future than an ordinance would As things come up, we could amend a policy We would be obliged to follow the policy that that you hand down whether it's an ordinance or a policy Um, but it just allows us a little bit more flexibility Okay, good Sandy last comment That was just my question and in terms in terms of the enforceability of a of a Of a policy versus an ordinance and the employees Requirement to Follow it and in any recourse The object of of the enforcement of the policy might What what might You continue to make me proud You do I think this is the Kind of approach that is most positive for our city Uh number 12 we're going to receive the annual report From the chitlin county regional planning commission And chris is going to give it charlie is actually on his way. He just texted me. He was in another municipal meeting tonight So if we could Sorry chris, but we'll be delayed one item and come back to you Is that okay chris? No problem whatsoever. Alrighty So we'll skip down to number 13 discuss and possibly adopt A policy on delinquent ambulance billing accounts So chief lock welcome Yeah, is the green light? I shut it off Uh Before you tonight is a draft policy that we had asked for your consideration for adoption Uh on how to deal with delinquent delinquencies in terms of our ambulance billing procedures. So um in To the january 2021 we started with a outsourcing a new with a new company who does our ambulance billing Uh, that's had a great success But with that also comes a very uh thorough accounting of all of our so we when we Of course somebody we bill them And as you can imagine there are we send them three bills and after that there's no collection agency So much of it is paid through medicare or medicaid Or if you have private insurance or supplemental insurance But after that then delinquency start to to rack up and we don't bill you after the third time So what this is really doing is allowing us to clean up the system. So after about uh, Almost two years of using this company. We have about 80 000 that is uncollectible revenue We carry it on the books But this would allow the the treasurer or our finance director To work with our billing company to write that debt off every every month when we get our monthly report And have a clean system of keeping track what is really collectible um an outstanding Debt that we may be able to capture versus monies that are not going to ever be captured So that's what this uh, but we bring this before you as a formal policy to allow us to do that Okay Comments questions. So chief your oldest age receivable is with this company. So it's two years old correct and um And so the idea is you bill three times and then you you write it off Correct and and you don't have this ability now correct So prior to switching to this company, I suspect that it was done in informally And so now the correct thing The correct way to do this business would be to have the council adopt a formal policy To allow us to do that so that we are Otherwise we're writing off debt that you haven't allowed us to do so you ask the chart as to chart trophy But you've we in the policy there was never a way for us to say if we did not receive that what we would do with the balance I see so it is the third party vendor that is requesting a policy direct policy from the council or In concurrence Okay Our finance policies are silent on it. So in order to have tight financial controls ourselves, we would request that you do it Yeah, it makes sense to me Okay, any other comment so um I would entertain I guess A motion to approve this So I moved second Any further debate or discussion If not all in favor signify by saying I I so the motion carries. Thank you Welcome Okay, yeah, and then you can go home right so when I'm staying through the duration. I apparently so Oh, you have to stay through. Okay. Well, then we'll let charlie That's what's gonna be quick. Do you want to just do the next sure? Why don't you do the next one? It'll be quick. Sorry charlie. This this is really quick. It's just you know raising fees. That's so easy So we'll move on to um Let's see item 14, which is possibly approve and discuss a resolution amending the ambulance billing rates So before you as a recommendation to raise our fees that we charge for ambulance transports This was lost on several years ago. I think before prior to 2019 I think the you know last time I from data. I believe it was approved in 2019 or so But yet we don't have a resolution to that This is a formality in my opinion to bring us up to what is more acceptable And and the ab brings us to the county average of what municipal services charge Understanding that 84 of our patients we transport. This does not affect anyone. That's uh, we bill Medicare Medicaid. There are caps And so those patients we just receive that cap. This really applies to about the 16 percent of Patients that have private health insurance that we then build the insurance company for And we anticipate this will bring in annually about 60 000 additional revenue right Okay, it seems like in so many areas south brolington charges the least amount whether it's water sewer ambulance pardon Oh, and taxes. Yeah, right So is there any just a quick question? Did wilson just raise theirs because it looks like we're we would be in line with them pretty much I suspect that we all are we you know So i'll say this wilson typically puts together a spreadsheet every year comparing everyone's rates and all the providers You know, we all share we try to stay consistent And some you'll see colchester is an anomaly who charges a very much higher amount so But i'll say once you there is a breakover point where you get high enough that the insurance companies see is out of Out of the industry standard and they start pushing back and and so then so there it is a tight rope There's really so high you can go And the mileage is per mile per loaded mile Floated mile so you want to get as close to the hospital as possible To be okay. We don't make them all out of my money They left them often, you know on main street and they walk in But you can still refuse treatment if the ambulance shows up. Is that true? That is true. Okay unless you're mentally not There's a few few reasons you can't but by and large Yes, you can Okay, are you Ready Okay, so I would entertain a motion to approve this resolution So moved second all in favor All right Okay, thank you very much I know it wouldn't have taken any longer waiting, but anyway, so charlie Welcome Oh, no, we got two things done not a problem. Good Yeah, thank you. And I know chris. Shaw is online there. So, uh, thank you for chris joining me here Um, so this is my annual kind of customer service check-in. Um, we are We serve our municipalities and I just want to get feedback on how we're doing from your perspective I believe you got the report in your packet I'll just review the report real quickly and ask for feedback if that's okay Um, the first page gives you background on, uh, the chinny county regional planning commission when we were formed our board Kind of how we leverage municipal dues to bring in state and federal dues to the county or money the county Your your representatives on our board and Committees, uh, thank you to chris and to megan as your alternate on our board and to your staff Um, obviously and uh, obviously justin was there for f y 22. So this is an f y 22 report Uh, and now tom is uh there for f y 23 On the second and third page Um, you can see the list of things that we did with south burlington in f y 22 I don't even know where to start. There's a lot of a wide variety of things there Transportation things your climate action plan Brownfield some emergency management water quality work, but happy to take any feedback On how our staff did in helping you with all those projects positive or negative But I'm really here to get positive. I think very positive. I enjoyed the people that helped with the climate Task force. They were great And and I appreciated the the queen city park road bike ped scoping right those were good meetings and well directed Lots of good information and well run. Good. Good. Well, thank you for that response for chamberland school crosswalk Thank you for that too. Oh good Good. Thank you On page four Are the list of projects goes on to page five a little bit of projects capital projects that are in our transportation improvement program Which we need to approve for v trans to be able to use federal funds Um and a little bit information, you know, kind of cost and where they are in terms of schedule Something a couple of things have probably already been completed there. I'm seeing but a number of things that are coming up Um, I don't know a lot about every single one of those projects, but uh, there's any questions happy to take those Or in our current work program So the planning work, uh, we have just a technical assistance task Um, some more detailed work, uh around transportation implementation for your climate action plan More crosswalks and of course some extra work with your bike ped project over 89 Charlie what to what extent do you work with, um, You know green mountain transit. No, it's not green mountain transit. What is it called? GMT? Yeah, green mountain transit um earlier In our meeting we, um Adopted some or what did we adopt those old dr's? Yeah um That allowed for greater growth in the in the transit. Yeah. Yeah, and the comment by one of your staff members Um, which is good. Half of our staff. Pardon me not speaking on behalf of our organization here. Okay. Absolutely. No, no um was was Really that we need more public transportation if we're gonna, you know Advance and and really make the kinds of um Reduce mile Driven in any meaningful way. So I guess my question is how I mean, it's not just something that south burlington can do. I mean this person suggested that we You know commit $500,000 to Public transit to make it happen in south burlington So but it seems like it's a regional issue as well. So I was just curious how Engaged you are and what Might be happening in that area because I think Everyone would agree, you know if there were buses and they went where you wanted Then more people would use them and less people would drive Uh, yes and You you're talking about a chicken and egg issue, right? Um, because if I ask GMT they'll say well We're not going to run more buses if the people aren't there. Yeah, I know and so I Appreciate what you were doing earlier this evening in increasing the density on your transit corridors And frankly, that's a focus of the regional planning commission as we update our regional plan We're going to put more emphasis on that I think that has come out of conversations with GMT And that you know, if there it's hard for them to increase service without increasing ridership And that maybe maybe want to speak to this, but the it's also Not a simple thing. They're not really in a very sustainable Financial situation. Is that fair of me if I say it that way? And which is why we did some work with them a year ago To present options for funding to the legislature to give some other options for local match because they're really constrained in Just the relationship just kind of how the state has set up Their their functioning is constrained And it's constrained by property tax and and fares And so, you know, if we can't find some ways to help them increase ridership increase Local revenues into the system, you know, I'm not sure exactly what the future is but I know it's got to evolve somehow But I also don't think it's realistic to Ask the bus company or ask GMT to run more buses Without more riders being there And so That the theme that that you were working on earlier is consistent with what we're working on regionally of trying to get more housing density Along our bus lines because that's that that's kind of when you know, I can't even get to how many layers of when that is, right? It helps our climate. It helps, you know transportation. It helps those Even those residents if they have a less expensive way to get wherever they're trying to get to as opposed to Trying to run ssta services Part of the time, you know on demand Into rural parts of the county. So anyway, there's there's more there and maybe Councilor coda might want to follow up more on that because he's probably heard more recent conversations at their board Is is the operations chair for GMT a I just want to say that we miss you and your Your outsize influence. Uh, it's a challenging time Yeah, we have to figure out whether to reinstate fares Deal with labor issues and and yes, it's the number of buses and drivers But it's also the certainty for drivers or excuse me for passengers. They want to know That they're not going to be waiting in the cold So being able to ensure that those routes hit their marks is just as important sometimes as Having more frequency in buses. So yeah, so you mentioned the and I think I mean, I'm well aware of the Funding formula that the state has that, you know, there was some reason to that but um Is that something but you just noted that, you know, maybe that needs to be re-looked at as well are Is ccrpc taking a role in that or in your conversations with other um planning organizations Is that part of the conversation with mom failure? Yes. Yes. So um, and we worked with GMT and NV trans last year and developed some I'll call them options for other revenue local revenue sources That we presented to the legislature last year Of course, you know, we've been in a very unique time and there was Thankfully a lot of federal money flowing into the state and the state has been able to help The last two years, right? We've had fair free transit um, I think that um, that I was going to say gravy train. I'm not sure that's the right analogy, but It's probably coming to the end at the end of FY 23 and unfortunately kind of The the disparity between urban and rural services in the state is really significant I think it cost the state something like $500,000 to make the rest of the state fair free It cost them $2 million just to make jitney county fair free and so I would not be surprised if they continue fair free service in the rest of the state and have a Different policy solution for jitney county Which is just going to increase the pressure on municipalities and your local property taxes to pay that local share Without some other revenue source. And so we we presented revenue options We know that the legislature will Decide what they want to decide in that regard and so we did not try to get down to one option I haven't been here forever, but I haven't seen that ever work with the legislature. And so Those options are still on the table. I expect they'll get some more attention this year Particularly as I think the state may be running into a situation more broadly Of not being able to have enough local match for to match all the federal transportation funds So again, you know the blessing comes with a little bit of a curse with the like the federal infrastructure bill A lot more money in it, but that also requires more local match so Sorry, I don't know that was I'm not really giving you a great answer But the structure too. I mean, you know, yeah, so we work in partnership You know, thankfully we're able to we were able to fund that with 80 of federal funds to fund that study to look at options. So On the table more more work on that to come. We'll just keep hammering met I don't know if that will fix it Probably not two more meetings Yeah, if I if I could just add on that topic I think also we just had a woman here who was applying for the cswd and she works on waste Management at her place of employment And I think that reaching out to places of employment either on ccrpc or the gmt To to really educate the employees because a lot of them haven't even really looked into it And I mean, I think that's also some low hanging fruit there. Yes We invest about maybe 70 thousand dollars a year In the chintan area transportation management association So there's an organization established to do exactly that And so we help support that work in broadening their reach to get to more employers so More work to do on that And we are As a follow-up, you may remember I was in front of you a lot of Many times over the last couple years around the 89 study And I don't know if you remember it, but at the end of that we were also looking at ways to reduce A traffic demand on our interstate With travel demand management, which is what we're talking about really how do we reduce driving trips? We're going to dig into that more deeply in the coming year also, so I guess stay tuned for more. Yes, and there's more more to do Sorry, the last few pages of the report are to cover a wide range of topics We do have a legislator breakfast coming up if there's anything specific you'd like us to you know Put on the table for that. Please. Please let me know soon. That's uh, December 8th fables and cream cheese It says December 7th in our notes. That was December 7th last year. Oh, okay. Sorry. This is this is a backwards looking report mostly Okay, and Yeah, building homes together. I think you heard some about I appreciate your efforts And and the contribution that South Burlington plays is in increasing our housing stock Um Comprehensive economic development strategy any happy to take any questions or feedback on any of these other topics at the end here Is there a comment question could do questions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Can you pull out your crystal ball? Charlie. Oh, sure. And tell us if we're going to hit uh, 5000 by 2025 and building homes together Oh, um, I think we might get close Okay, somewhat optimistic. Yeah, so we got um, the first five-year campaign we were trying to hit. I think it was 3500 and we got to like 36 3700 Over that five years Which was 700 a year And to be honest with you. I was advocating for a thousand a year Six or seven years ago But um, I think we get closer. I still don't believe even if we can build a thousand homes a year here in chinti county that It's going to be enough to address the issues and the demand that we have And you know, a lot of our just our housing market, I know it was kind of fundamentally broken We stopped building enough housing And this is not about south burlington per se. All right, like I'm more generally as a state um But we have not been building enough housing now for a couple decades, right? It's not going to it's going to be longer than five years to catch back up and get into a healthy balance and What's been happening in in other more urban markets in new york and boston? I mean, we're seeing that phenomena play out of you know, they can sell their home there come buy a home here for cash And um, you know, I think that's we're seeing kind of the beginning of the climate refugee wave um, and it concerns me greatly that You know, if if we don't have more housing supply that we're producing We're going to keep gentrifying in that kind of unhealthy way. I agree Uh, so what's your crystal ball say about 12 b? 12 b. Um, probably after the 5 000 homes Well, let's hope so let's hope we get both Any other crystal ball questions? Oh, I just I just wanted to say that um, You know, I mean as you drive around south burlington and just outside the limits You see evidence of all these projects that are listed here And the ccrpc has touched them in some way and you know and fostered them And so I'm I'm just grateful for all that work because A lot of it has to do with storm water, right? Which has to do with lake champagne water quality, which is really important to our economy So I I'm I'm grateful for all this work. There's a lot of hours in here I'm looking forward to the signal improvements around exit 14, you know And i'm also looking forward to a nice bike path a rec path along dorset street between Old cross road and city lane when that gets going so Well and and I think I'll say back at you I mean, thank you for all the city is doing so, you know We are really just kind of a support agency for the work that our municipalities do and thank you for everything that south burlington does So you've been doing a lot of progressive work. So keep keep going Well, thank you. Helen. Can I yes? chairman I also want to add there's there's a huge amount of effort here on the planning front I think what's not captured here understandably so is in the absence of county government the role that charlie and his organization play in Convening managers convening public works directors convening storm monitor directors and really letting us all learn from one another and Be that opportunity oriented city that south burlington has wanted to be for a year So thank you for all you do for the managers and for All of us in in raising all of our ships. Yeah Thank you for that. Appreciate that Okay, thank you for saving time for me on your agenda Third third municipality tonight. So thank you. Well, we appreciate our partnerships with you. You do a lot for our community Yeah, thank you very much. Appreciate it. Have a good night night Good night and have a good Thanksgiving Okay, moving on now to item 15 is receiving a proposal from the climate action task force To put a charter change on the town meeting day ballot to regulate thermal energy systems and existing residential and commercial Buildings and we have Ethan gullman and androchalic for that committee Former committee Yeah, thank you, Helen Do we have the deck? Great. Thank you Thank you So my name is androchalic. I was the vice chair of the committee with me is Ethan gullman the chair of the committee um Thank you for your time This evening. I I know it's late Um before we again, we both want to give you our heartfelt Thanks for the foresight you showed in approving the new construction ordinance that was really Really important first step to transition the city away from fossil fuels This presentation will I think be the last official act of the climate action Task force, but what we're asking you to begin today the journey we're asking you to begin on today Will be harder than the than the last one Um, and that journey will be to transition our existing building stock away from fossil fuels if we can flip slides And I I may be doing mostly talking but please direct questions to Ethan or I as as we go through this So I know that um, all of you are very familiar with what's on Slides two and three and it's and it's late. So I'm not going to Really go through those One thing I want to point out and it was touched on just by the earlier gentleman is um Climate migration from all these anticipated climate impacts when coast floods and fires threaten and drought causes famine I'm not really sure what we're going to do when thousands or tens of thousands of folks Show up at our door Not to mention the kind of mass migration to the u.s from other countries and the social upheaval That that will likely cause so just leave you with that thought as we proceed on through this deck So we can skip right to Page four unless unless anyone would like to go through the other pages in more detail um So I think you're also all familiar with with our plan Ethan presented it A couple months ago and thank you for approving it the one element of the plan that this particular presentation addresses is really the First bullet in the third paragraph there The homes that need the existing homes that need to be electrified each year as part of the plan and As with all of these goals, it's a it's a pretty daunting Goal it's 360 housing units a year that we need to electrify And honestly this won't happen without some significant systemic change And it's that systemic change that we want to talk about tonight So if we can flip the page Um, similar to the new construction ordinance, we're very fortunate that our neighbor burly city burlington is paving a path for us that we can follow and burlington Went to the voters and then went to the legislature and the governor and got approval for this incremental power to regulate thermal energy systems in existing buildings and we Are are asking the council To go down that same path that burlington took which is to begin the process of amending our charter to give south burlington that same power the particular amendment that Burlington That was made to burlington's charter is is there in the first bullet that's just Word for word. I think eathan. We're we're happy with that. We're not recommending any changes I think we'll if we can do exactly what burlington did. I think we'll be in in really really good shape um I want to say before we kind of we go on to the this process that um This this change is is kind of a small first step. It doesn't commit us to do anything and in fact We'll probably want to go back to the voters If we come up with any policy but allows us to begin a meaningful conversation about what the policy should be um And i'm happy to discuss What that might look like in the future. I'm I'm sure eathan has ideas, but that's not really what Um tonight is about or what the charter change is about really tonight is just about Let's let's at least have the power to engage in this conversation And i'm sure that conversation will be vigorous and will be vigorously debated At some point in the future Exactly what that policy should look like and flip the page this is the process and as I understand it there's um different routes that a charter change can Go through chatting chatting with paul. I think that um what what we're recommending Is that if the council would like to proceed that the council um Hold the hearing and then kind of you know Ideally conclude that this charter change should um Go on the ballot in march Where voters will get to decide Whether or not It's something that um the city wants the council to have the power to do If the voters say yes Then the charter change would go to the legislature and have to pass the vermont house and run senate We'd have to be signed by the governor If that happens then The city would have the power and the council would then think about How it wants to exercise that power and what regulations it wants to implement off the back of that If those regulations uh contemplate a alternative compliance payment Those regs would need to go back to the voters again So this is a long process um for with You know hurdles that that are some of them are are challenging um And so that's why we're we're kind of asking To kick this off tonight because it'll probably be a while if we are successful at each of these points before We actually make any changes. I would imagine it could be a year or two or more Before we go through each of these steps and successfully Get to the point where there's now a policy that's adopted That's in place and that's making a difference I think that is really the end there's um an appendix Just I can just go through that quickly If the council decides to put this on the ballot, um, there's going to be Fair amount. Well, let me let me just uh what happened burlington burlington approved The change in november 21 in the general election Uh this spring it went to the legislature was signed by the governor I've been in actually commerce. I've been in contact with the mayor there may a wine burger about where where they are And he believes that at the beginning of december They will have a package That they will You know consider In terms of what the regulations should be and he gave me some insight into what he thinks that might be but he's not really certain himself Just as speculating about what what that might be and i'm happy to talk to you about that if if you'd like to And then just we don't need to go through the rest of slides, but um, I included some of the faqs That burlington put in their materials when The charter change went to the voters so Folks could understand What it was all about and then a nice quote from the for the mayor When when uh the governor signed it That's that's really all I have. I know it's late. So i'm gonna i'm gonna stop there. I don't know what you think of this Well, I just think it's maybe worth playing out briefly the the schedule and maybe you've all thought this through Since this is I know that this timing is sort of driven by How much uh lead time does it take to get something on the ballot in march for town meeting, right? So if we get something on the south burlington ballot in march 23 The soonest the legislature could take that up as the beginning of 24 Um, if they happen to take it up at the beginning of the session We might be able to get something back on our ballot to You know implement a particular policy in march of 24, but more likely it'd be like march of 25 That we're talking about getting something back on the ballot So just to be clear that the urgency for today Is could we maybe be on a track to Consider creating a policy that would be passed or be put in front of the voters in march of 25 That's really like the amount of lead given all the lags with the part-time legislature and everything else in the state. So um, the urgency here is If we at least get something started and we have a chance of having an opportunity By march of 25. Um, it might still take longer than that if it takes us longer to develop a policy You know it could be um, you know Hard to say But uh, the more we wait then the more, you know, we're always going to have those lags right so that's the timing Can I ask you a question? I can't remember did um Burlington use its charter committee to help develop this language or was it their climate action Workforce or whatever they have Or was it just the city council's the mayor and then the city council looked at it and said great My recollection was just the council. I can't swear to that helen. I didn't go to their charter committee Any thing about the charter committee being evolved It came it came from the council and not the not the climate committee as far as I understand Okay, so it was generated by the council Probably in cahoots with the mayor. I mean, yeah, he supported it I think it was probably the mayor I don't mean cahoots like it was behind that Behind the screen, but Okay all right, yes, I make one comment on Timing and I agree with everything Ethan and Andrew just said on timing and do want to say that there is timing before it goes to Tell me day ballot two that is very tight this this winter um This is beyond my purview. This would be a policy call of the council but another option Considering that burlington has already passed this and the governor has already signed it This is the trouble with a dillens rule state, right? The state could decide given that they've already Given this authority to one community to give it to all communities and to change that through title 24 Which is the enabling legislation for municipal governments Um, if we really want to make the impact on the climate statewide I mean the state's climate change goals Doing it 251 municipalities by municipalities is going to be quite a heavy lift If the state were just to add this in the next session To title 24, which would be their prerogative. Maybe with some of our new state reps leading the charge Then it could go to the ballot in in town meeting day 2024 Having passed through the session in 2023. So that is I that is I know that's not what you all are proposing tonight But that is another path forward given that we have Very minimal local control in vermont So without those discussions, I am aware have started There's certainly receptivity to pushing the discussions among the Our our reps and I I've actually been engaged in some of those discussions I would strongly recommend we we do a dual path if that is successful Fantastic, right? Um, I would hope honestly that the legislature seeing us Pushing this we're also incent That action at the state level. So I don't see these things as mutually exclusive, but I've seen that as a complimentary It certainly is in the interest of all the folks who are working not just in south burlington, right? All the builders and everyone else who would be affected by this Is going to prefer to see that things are, you know, uniform and that they're not trying to develop different policies And every time, you know, the the worst case scenario is is we've got dozens of towns each adopting their own separate policy They're all a little bit different about what they Count and how they calculated and you know, that would be a real nightmare I think for folks working in this space But I completely agree with andrew that the most productive thing for south burlington to do to motivate the legislature Do not want to see these things come up a hundred more times is to say well if you make us do it one by one Here's number two. When do you want to just cut to the chase and you know come up with a better plan? Well, it definitely won't come up a hundred more times because there's only about three dozen towns that have charters of the 251 Fair point But if you passed, you know, if you did it through the state statute, then it would be applicable to every community Which would have a broader impact other comments or Well, I'll just I'll just share. Um, I mean I I learned about this. Um, you know after we had passed the the previous, um It's an ordinance It wasn't a policy it was an ordinance And you know, I think uh sitting through the charter review committee where we discussed it and and Um, you know seeing the reactions among some of those members I think I can identify with uh, you know the sticker shock, right? Like uh, We just did this thing now. We now we now what are we taking on but I think that I you know when then when I calm down, um This is the more economical way forward than not doing anything um and I have to you know, just Relax and tell myself that we have equity at the forefront of our of our climate action plan And so that to me would mean that as this moves forward we would look at who can pay for this and And I think that as as a city We need to be doing what we are asking Everybody else to do Which is to take action um, so I Got past my sticker shock Looking, you know at the future of my children and what choices they might be having to make in their futures That this is an easier choice than what I would be asking them to make if I didn't make this choice So I am in favor of this And I do agree that if it can add Impetus to the legislature To to make sure that we meet our our state goals In a way that is empowering. Um I think that Why not and I find it um, You know very helpful. There's a a podcast As recline had bill mckibbon on and I found it to be very helpful to listen to us from last week um To talk about the cost of mining and how It is much more costly to mine for fossil fuels Than what we are looking at with regard to electrifying our buildings So all the way around Economically speaking, this is the right way forward for our residents And for our future generations of residents So that's where I sit Okay, other comments. Yeah So i'm trying to understand the end game here, right? So it says It seems like you're saying you want to regulate thermal systems and you also possibly want to add a carbon tax Basically, right? It doesn't say carbon tax, but that's what we're talking about here is the ability of the of south rondon to levy a carbon tax for those Buildings that still are using natural gas Essentially, right? I don't think carbon tax is is quite the term that well you've got in here. You have you have assessed a car I think it's a fair characterization, right? I think that's a fair but it basically if you're still burning fossil fossil fuels You're gonna you can implement a tax on it, right? I'm not disagreeing. It's a so and then the next question is We already just passed the ordinance for new construction, right? So why do we need this if we want to pass ordinances for people who need to replace existing? You know Furnaces when they when they you know or need to replace really replacing So in instances where there's a permit required to Do a major piece of infrastructure change in in a residence, right or in a commercial building, which I don't know if that's required or not We would have the ability to have an ordinance to say you can't replace it with natural gas, right? No, I don't think so I think this is would give you that power to do that for an existing I think for a major renovation if it's new construction Well, you could help me what new construction means, but I think it's more than just replacing a furnace So, um This gives you the power and what I understand one of the things that Burlington is considering is an end of life rule Which says something like okay if your furnace is on the fritz And you need to do something new you have a choice you can put in something that's going to work on renewables Or you can put in something that's not and pay a carbon tax Or a compliance fee So that's kind of I think something they're thinking about as a possible end game But but there's nothing definitive that's been written and that's that's no no No, no, no, it's exactly right. It's because this is a this is a long process and they they just got the power So now they're they're in this process of developing a policy. I think we'll get a peek at their Proposal in december Well, doesn't it seem like it's backwards wouldn't I want to see the end product that you want to try to try to implement Before you then back up and say we this is the charter change we need in order to implement it Yeah, I think it's going to be a vigorous discussion And one thing I can envision like I said is an end of life kind of policy You know Perhaps taking some of the funds from people that choose to use fossil fuel systems and putting it back into the economy for low income folks to help them with their You know end of life issues with their with their systems But that that'll you know, that'll be a debate. I don't think we could really Without having um the power to do anything to me having that Detailed discussion about exactly what that looks like right now I I guess that doesn't feel like the best path to me. It's the best best path to me feels like, okay You know, let's give ourselves the power to have a meaningful conversation We'll be in a position to see what burlington has done and then we'll figure out How do we get 360 homes electrified a year in a way it's equitable? Yeah, see this this is what bothers me because we had a really definitive plan for the ordinance on new construction Right and it was really well structured What we have now is this amorphous cloud that that has this thing that we don't know what it's going to be And I don't like that I want to have I want to have the definitive plan for what the ordinance is going to look like in advance Even if it's five or six years out So then we can say in order to get that we need to have this other thing Happened within our charters so that we can get down that road so that people see very clearly what could be coming I I don't want to like we could look As Ethan said this could be a multi-year effort could be a different council could be new technology Right all kinds of things could change when we're could be different federal funds could be different federal policy, right? There are so many variables at the point when and if we may have this power that I could see anything we come up in today you know in any event changing significantly at that point, but if I can you know, so emphasize that There's not necessarily one policy that will stand for the next hundred years, right? If we go down this path and have the ability to create these kind of regulations I think it's very likely that they will evolve over time and change right once we have the ability to Regulate in that area Then we can try rolling things out as technologies change and become cost effective the policy can change as the market changes It'll evolve again, right? So those iterations can happen on a more rapid basis Um, but in order to even get into that space We just have to open up this opportunity for the city to have a say in it And so I think the concern has been that if we try to think out Here's what the policy is that we want to have in two years like it would be more expeditious But then it means we have to get everyone all along the way to agree to all of those details Instead of working in an iterative fashion. So Um, I think that's why Burlington chose to do it and part of the reason why we followed in the path was because they got a pretty good reception both in the legislature and from the governor and Looks like we're facing pretty similar conditions, although I suppose there could be a veto override this time around that there wasn't last time but Um, I don't think that's really a scenario that we'd want to go to anyway So I think that's why it's it's a slightly more conservative path And we don't think it's necessary to tell everyone exactly what the policy will be because it isn't going to trigger a unilateral policy When it comes into effect It's just going to be the opportunity to craft a policy that then would still go in front of the south burlington voters So the details of it are are still um, you know open to that debate So So I bristle at the comparison to burlington They're vertically integrated Like nelson rockefeller and jp morgan. They own the coal plant. Sorry wood plant. They own the power lines They own the retail store They have a better idea of what they can and can't do with electrification We just heard in the last city council meeting A letter written by the ceo of the largest electric utility in new england Pleading with the president of the united states saying we may not have enough electricity to avoid rolling blackouts in new england And now you want to put a carbon tax On people that are using an essential commodity to provide heat and hot water for their families I don't support it. It's gonna happen if it doesn't happen now matt I mean look at what's going to happen in 50 years down the road. Look at what's going to happen in 2100 What's going to happen? You've been listening to the news. I would assume I would hope in your in your position as a lobbyist If we do nothing between now and 2100, we have a billion people who are migrants in the world a billion people Your children My children are your grandchildren Are going to be dealing with the political fallout of that And we're going to be having if we do nothing we're going to be having all kinds of blackouts and I mean, I think that This is not going to be something that happens overnight But we have to be responsible now So that our children have easier choices to make Than what we would be leaving to them That's what's before us So I I agree with that. I mean just the one point about the um electrical supply We have to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time We have to both electrify And we have to find new supply as a country and improve our grid And the inflation reduction act goes a long way to providing the tools To folks To do that and we all have to be in together to push that because we have no choice That is what we need to do as a state And as our country for our children We have to be able to do that I like to point out there are other cities who are doing this who don't have a municipal electric utility So I don't think the municipal electric utilities that prerequisite and while Eversource and other utilities down south may be concerned about their power supply Green Mountain powers been asked about this before and it said that they have no concerns about this And they're already taking a lot of steps to put load management Systems in place to make sure that the capacity is not going to be an issue So I don't think that um that the technical problems are really going to be an obstacle And again, we're we're really talking several years out before the starts hit So there's lots of time to coordinate the planning with the rest of the regional grid Right and I can't imagine that a governmental body Would choose at a point where our grid is going to go under to just say oh well I mean everything we have to be reactive to the situation at hand and this simply gives I think us the opportunity to educate our Our community we've passed this climate action plan We've seen the ambitious goals that our task force Have given us in order for us to remain true to the goals that we set ourselves as a body We set those goals for our community So we are responsible now for leading that discussion And I think that this discussion has to start With this discussion I I As I've said before tonight We have someone in the audience not in the audience but online who would like we've got two people Jerry silverstein, why don't you start and then donna kindle So I think I have a few comments one the cost of switching over from a natural gas furnace to heat pumps Extensive you have all the ductwork for the furnace And the heat pumps have a totally different infrastructure And most Companies which install heat pumps tell you You should have backup systems for when it gets extremely cold If you want to get the best of the best heat pumps Which can deal with zero degree temperatures. Those are enormously expensive And even then Physics will not allow you to extract heat From air which doesn't have much heat. So you're always going to need backup systems You just can't survive in vermont unless you have a backup system So you can never totally get rid of a backup heating system which uses fossil fuels But in a larger tech in a larger context, you're really not looking at the big picture Let me give you an example All of you are breathing The very fact that you and eight billion other people on planet earth are breathing Releases about three gigatons Three billion tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere every year The carbon dioxide released when you breathe Is no different than the carbon dioxide released when fossil fuels are burned There are many contributing factors to the build-up of co2 in the atmosphere And all of vermont is estimated to produce 10 million tons of greenhouse gases That's all of vermont not just south burlington So when you compare it on a global basis To all the other emissions of carbon dioxide coming from people breathing from china from india From africa, which is developing radically rapidly What we do in south burlington is not irrelevant but it's so minuscule As to be non consequential in terms of global warming And so when you want to punish people For having installed Heating systems over many decades in their house Because all of a sudden you say we've got to reduce our carbon footprint from 10 million tons to zero When the rest of the world is still dumping out 35 to 50 billion tons of carbon dioxide It's nonsensical. It's it's insulting and it's degrading And i am one People know me 95 to 98 percent of my trips are by foot or by bicycle I always try to reduce my carbon footprint to the lowest possible manner possible I keep my temperature at about 55 in the house I use about 100 kilowatts of electricity every month on a yearly basis. I do everything possible But when somebody tells me they want me to dump my fossil fuel System so that we can beat our chest like tar's and have the jungle and say look what we're doing I think you're all crazy And i'll stop there Keep comments civil. Thank you jerry Ellen, could I address some of those comments? Would that be okay? Sure um Jerry thank you for those comments. I'd love to have a conversation with you a little bit about the Science we can talk about the carbon cycle to the breathing point. I think that's probably not How it works um and again love to love to sit down with you and talk that through In terms of the technology the technology is improving all the time. I just read about A train ducted system that works down to minus 23 degrees centigrade It's never been that cold In burlington. It's never been minus 23 the lowest temperature was like minus 21 Like 30 years ago. Um, so those systems are coming. They work great They you can just replace your existing furnace and and and pop that in and by the time we're in a position to Um implement this that stuff will be available widely available It's tons of incentives and inflation reduction act and we're not Requiring anyone to pull out something that's working, you know In my mind the the policy. I think that makes sense is if your furnace is no longer working You gotta replace it in any event. So there's a lot to discuss there um But I think technology is uh, it's probably a bit further along than than um Then maybe you've um, you've read about Okay, thank you donna kinville Hi, thank you. Um, I'm talking um for peter taylor who was when I unable to be here tonight, but oh no, he's in the audience Oh, he's here. Okay. Never mind that. I'll leave it to peter Okay I thought he was being in a zoom meeting. So I will let peter talk Peter Okay, thank you peter would you like to Take her place Is the is the thing on oh, okay. Well get a little closer to your quiet voice, please Oh, it wasn't on looked like it was to me um The committee met the other night. It was really the first time most of us heard about this proposal And um, as you know, we have a fairly major project going on about the charter And we're more than happy to take this into the charter committee and included in our work effort Um, we cannot do it to have it ready by march. That's for sure And I think just the conversation you've heard tonight tells you that uh, maybe this needs a little bit more thought and um, I've been Consensus Megan. I we didn't take a vote But it seemed to be a consensus of the group that they would like you to refer this issue to the charter committee And we will include it with the other activities that we're doing and just I had to skip a meeting with donna because I was babysitting so she thought it was for the whole night But it wasn't so can I answer any questions? Um, are there any? I did ask andrew About his views because I sat in on the meeting of course and I passed that along to andrew prior to this meeting and um He raised a point that I thought was valid What's the level of expertise in and Climate change on the charter review committee? Because this is coming from our climate action task force where there is a great deal of expertise I think we can get a feel for the community before it goes to a vote and report that back part of our um Direction from the council Was to share with the community The issues that we're talking about and at that time we would also share this issue And we could bring those feelings back to the council I think this is being rushed And a charter is not something you change really quickly like that. I don't think So, um That's my thought We'd be glad to take it on. Thank you Peter, um, I I really do respect and appreciate the whole um committee process And I think we have that process in this city And one would think that this charter change ought to come from the charter committee but I and in most cases when it's governance I would I really support that But I think this is a Kind of an energy policy That was um discussed In great length um By the task force We also had, you know, lots of information as a background to Maybe the urgency and what the options might be for a community um looking for Low hanging fruit um things that are possible in light of Some incredibly challenging goals That were set You know by in paris, um By the united states, um by our state That You know, I just in this case. I think this is a different kind of um Charter change And so I I guess I don't Agree with you that it really should Come from the charter committee. I think we're not talking about testing Getting a sense of the community on this um as much as Um asking the legislature That we feel our community Should have the ability To think creatively thoughtfully in a very specific way About how we can reduce carbon use and What that might be we don't know at this point But we need the I guess I think we need the um Push To have that conversation to get somewhere. I I tim I just I don't think I think we'd be spinning our wheels if we Waited for well, this is exactly what we should do in five years um In this community because I think the technology is going kind of fast So in order to I mean, I think this allows the community to In an iterative sense Kind of continue along um developing ideas and Whether their ordinances or activities or education to um Move us forward. I mean I I I think it's I agree with with um Megan that this isn't something to just Play around with or Not do anything until You know all the energy committees have developed a your companies have developed the perfect grid for Who knows how much energy and so then we can electrify I I just Feel like this is a reasonable step And I think even if there's only 30 communities that have charter changes You know, it may very well be that the legislature will After one or two say all right. Why don't we just let all the communities Think about this and let the people decide if this is the kind of Ordnance or whatever that they want in their community And really push that conversation I'll agree with this if you remove the assessment of the carbon impact and alternative compliance payments If you remove that statement just say to regulate thermal energy systems and residential commercial buildings for the purpose of reducing greenhouse gas emissions throughout the city period I'll I'll I'll agree to that but I want to agree to the other part because it's just it's too amorphous And you don't have a well enough to find end game ordinance structure that you're proposing But the end game will always be changing and we'll change the ordinance But I'd like to see something firm up front at least that's like 50% like you know These these are the buildings and categories that we think we can attack first and this is how we can do it It's it's just too general. It's too general I will say that like the carbon tax has to go back to another vote And and this is I understand that but and this is always change this again We could change a charter again if we feel we need to Yeah, that would that would add another two-year cycle in the future to go back I don't have a problem with that Well because the state's probably going to go ahead and do it anyway like you said Well, the state will have a clean heat standard in four months Yeah, I mean I guess that the concerns that I have with with some of the proposals to take more time Whether it's developing the charter or coming up with something longer is I'm interested to hear what the council would have in mind As alternative actions to take To try to make these kind of emissions reductions to meet the goals that you've already set forward in the resolution from last year If you're not able to move this fast on this one And so I think the intention of having the The language in there that allows you it doesn't require the council to pass a carbon tax You could pass a policy that had no carbon tax on it and it would be perfectly within this rights I mean there's other things I'm sure in the Charter that you don't utilize but that you're allowed to utilize so I guess that's my concern is About the the speed given that we're already behind on the goals and there aren't a lot of other levers that are very large to to pull To you know to move this emissions bucket And we are always beholden to the public and I you know, I think that too is important and was part of my thinking you know, I that Led me to to you know, consider this as as a as a way forward is They're going to be Voting on it. They're going to be voting on the counselors. They're going to be voting I mean, they will be a part of the process all the way through This council or any future council could never just simply, you know, snap their fingers um, and I think that it makes sense for The language to allow several levers So that future councils and the future, you know voting bodies in the in the public Can have all those levers at their disposal I mean, I would think that My children would probably be much more ambitious And they would want to have those levers at their disposal We've rosen greco would like to make a comment We can't hear you rosen Oh, yes. Sorry. Sorry. I just is apologizing for being in my bathrobe I wish I were in mine too I know But I know where I love zoom Or I love go to meetings. Um, I thank you Counselors for being taking this so seriously and spending so much time on this and obviously for the climate action task force I respect jerry silvestine and I know he does a lot for the environment, but but one of the Well, two of the comments he made I'd like to chime in on and that is Yes, in the big scheme of things what we do here in south burlington is rather small It is small without a doubt, but if every single entity thought that way Then we will never get out of this climate crisis. It's it's not an either or it's all of us in this together So every action matters Um, obviously big actions are needed But at the city level at the municipal level, that's where real change starts It starts from the bottom and and municipalities Have incredible opportunities before them and you do too And this is not a pat yourself on the back thing. This is a survival thing The issue with going to the charter Committee and respect their work. However, that's business as usual We are past business as usual if we're ever going to have a survivable world We got to act like our house is on fire and so It all do haste this is going to take years But to push it down for Because it's not perfect because it makes maybe a tim a little bit uncomfortable with that language The voters will decide So, um, I really encourage you to get this ball rolling Because we are running out of time And thank you. Thank you counselors for taking this And acting on it Any other comments or thoughts? I mean, we're not in a position to Adopt this it just we're receiving this What are the Next steps you would like more information More comments from committees. Yeah so if if In paul's memo, he outlines a direction at the end if you want to move this forward to tummy and day the window to do That is actually very very short We would recommend that if you want to move it forward at your next special meeting on november 30th That you look at ballot language, which is on the presentation, but officially look at that language And warn a public hearing you're required to have two public hearings before you finalize The language for the ballot So there is time to do that now, but you would need to direct us to bring that back to you on november 30th Is there interest in So just to clarify does the public hearing have to be on november 30th Or we have to make a motion to have a public hearing by november 30th Like on that date move and approve to have a public hearing at a future meeting So collin has done a bunch of research on this timeline. You don't have to have the public hearing on november 30th but there's a 45 day window Collin can outline this if you set the public hearing on november 30th We could hit all of the other required deadlines before the ballot has to be finalized Yeah, that's so essentially you have to have There's a set amount of notice you have to have required for each public hearing and it's between 40 and 30 days 30 and 40 days Advanced notice of posting around around the municipality. So to to meet that timeline And you also have to consider that ballots are printed at the end of january So to meet all those kind of considerations really the best way to do it that you already have a special meeting on the books is to Utilize november 30th to have a to have a meeting where you would make this proposal to make the charter change Then you would have public the two public hearings one would be in early january one would be in later january Before the 25th Yes, I think a public hearing Is in order, I mean I Well, I would support a public hearing. Yeah, I don't all right. So I will move To Schedule a public no that november 30th. I can do that Ask us to come back to it. I'm sorry. It's just it's like so we'll ask you to come back with the proposal or the language Um on november 30th. So we may set two public hearings Great, okay, so there's you don't have to vote on that do we we got three people Notting their heads. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you Okay now Receive the annual presentation from town meeting tv including their Fy 24 budget request. This is megan or work The town meeting tv channel director Welcome I didn't see you in the back And so like I wrote a note. I said it's megan on the on the screen here and you all have stamina. I cannot Thank you for coming out and you could have been wearing your slippers. We would have understood You know, I haven't actually been in this space. Oh travis has been in the space Running your meetings for you But I haven't been in the space and there is you all look bigger On tv. Oh, is that right? That's not what I needed to hear. Thanks I know you always put on 25 pounds Yeah, yeah, so let me just so it's the green light the bright on that microphone Okay, so will you push it close so everybody can you hear me? Now I can yes So you all have received um, this is probably the third time second or third time that i've been back to visit with you all for this municipal request I just want to bring out some highlights besides our team of capable Field producers such as travis who are here to help you and help the public access this meeting using the hybrid technology add titles and clickable agendas share links and share clips to Activate the public and get them involved We're really proud of some work that we've done to shore up our archives So that's work that we got grant funded By the national endowment for the humanities to work with the the northeast document conservation center To make sure that our archival resources the town meeting tv shares with cctv are being Secured digitized made available to the public and that includes all the municipal meetings that we cover for south barlington And We are in the middle of doing some legislative advocacy So this the history of why we started coming to these councils and asking for a municipal request is because cable Revenue is beginning to decline. We were seeing that on the horizon cable cord cutting And we needed to make up that money. Um, in addition, there was a gap Reclassification Reclassification of some funds. So we lost a big chunk of money from Comcast in one year And But we recognize that, you know, the municipality plays one part in that Um, we're in front of the legislature for the second. It's the third year now for Bridge funding. So we're going to go for f y 24 for a million dollars from the legislature Out of hopefully the governor's budget to support all the access centers around the state. So that's A million that would go to 24 different access centers around the state Um, and that's to tide us over until we can come up with some sort of policy change I think it may have been somebody here on the council that was pointing out The way that we're funding a lot of things like Cable access this public good Is legacy, you know, it's on the it's We're funding the public right of way using this outdated Policies around regulating cable Um, so I think I'll pause there and see if there are any questions you have the memo in front of you Last year you opted not to add the planning commission Meetings to coverage I assume that your budget is going to be tight again this year. That's something you could discuss We haven't discussed that but I don't know. We haven't seen that Um, another option is also to add and I think it's not laid out specifically, but it's on a, you know There is the option of also archiving content or submitting content that you record yourself So if there's somebody who's there's I think the planning commission may be using the the hybrid system But I don't know if they're recording those meetings And then we're and then So there's the option of also submitting those to us at that point And we can either add them to the archives or title them And that would be on a per meeting You look like you have a question. Yeah Oh, I was just wondering what I think that's a fantastic service Obviously, it's going to be less than bringing travis out here For the planning commission meeting. I mean, there's what's the cost associated with archiving stuff that we record It's $95 an hour So it depends on the length of how long it takes to do that archiving Based on the price of the length of time Yeah, so that's something I can discuss you could you could hedge that in and then I could have that conversation with Jesse independently or And if I could follow up obviously live, but how long until It how long after you receipt of the video file that it's posted Well, it depends on if you want to have depends on the How long how how how much detail you want to get into the titling of that so Currently with the city council meetings like we titled per agenda item so that folks know what's going on And then we add agenda markers to them. So there there are levels to that that we could discuss But I mean, I think a first step of at least adding those to the archives It makes sense as well Okay, we can um get maybe an estimate from paul I mean, I'm not liaison, but the You know the meetings sometimes Go longer than they might like But they're usually a couple hours But usually not more than two or two and a half. I think So it's not like some of our meetings That's an annual cost of 95 dollars Per hour per hour. No per hour per meat. I mean, it would be so the the minimum thing is per like a meeting It would at least be an hour. It's just it's a storage cost for replay, right? That's what we're talking about the $95. It's like it's labor cost of taking that like Taking that meeting and justing it Yeah The one-time cost Yeah per meeting Yes, but once you do it it's archived. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's posted. Oh, yeah, yeah public Yes, we don't have we don't have an honor our planning commission meetings hostage and that we you'll delete them from the cloud if we don't pay up No, no And in fact, you know, I mean This is this is the thing that all municipalities are going to have to come You know figure out at some point like When the pandemic happened there were folks that just you know the Planning staff and their laptop is storing all these meetings. And then what do you do with them? Do you then do you buy storage and then do you buy redundant storage and then do you come up with a metadata system? And that's what we have That's what we're working on Is making sure that our metadata system is understandable or robust can be transferred can be saved for a while You know at this point five 10 20 into the future years Okay, well, I think that would be um Something good to discuss once we kind of understand the scope of that Can I get technical yes, absolutely So Megan, I'm sorry. I didn't think of tasks this before in your memo Just because we are we are down to looking at the 500 thousand dollars in our f y 24 budget You say in the text that the f y 24 request is 22 50 But in the chart below and I think I've screwed this up before with your fiscal years being slightly different than ours It's 23 152 It's the yellow column So So you're 24 years your 23 year. Yeah, so that 8 23 is when we'll send you the bill which is in your f y 24 So in august 23rd, we'll send you a bill and that will be your f y 24 I could do a better job with this chart Okay Does that make sense? Sure. So you send it different times each year the bill different times each year too That is a mystery to me. I have copied this chart over why it went from seven to eight It will be sent in seven. Okay. Yeah, thank you That saves us a thousand dollars Okay. Yeah, so the request is 22 thousand 50 dollars Yeah, five percent increase over last year correct and then potentially It sounds like we would at least like to discuss with our whole budget conversation the cost of doing this um archiving of the planning commission meetings Mm-hmm Yeah, and if you Which would be in addition I want to if you want to have that conversation with folks or if you want me to have a conversation with somebody from planning I come up with It's an actual estimate. I'm happy to do that Thanks Okay Are there any other You know questions just a question. What what I mean, I think I've asked this question before is like Is it feasible that you could? Merge somehow with the public What do you mean merge with the pbs, right? You know they call themselves the public the public right, you know Is there a way to to snap Channel 17 into the public since they kind of all serve the same purpose which is public dissemination and programming and You're more about community recording and stuff, but yeah, well, we are working. We are working together um, we're collaborating and we work together right now around Making sure that the legislature The hybrid systems are accessible both through the media and to the public and that there's some logical way So we're doing some advocacy work. Yeah on that front together Our missions are a little different and our history is different, but you know Yeah, just just curious. Yeah Well, they're into merger. I mean it was TV and radio. I mean When I was on the board we were talking about that 25 years ago. Yeah, so now it's happened. Yeah So, okay Any other thoughts you want to share with us? You're having success with other communities Yeah, yeah, I mean I think everybody's I mean It feels like a pretty friendly group. I think we have a really good team right now of folks The work has really changed in the last two years. So we're kind of grappling with that as we're coming back I mean We keep saying as we're coming back and you may feel like you've been back longer I had a field producer who just went To their first big in person Totally just recording, you know, there was no live streaming. There was no hybrid company It was just a camera and a recording and it was like, oh, this is like back in the old days And that's you know, two and a half years after the pandemic started and so our You know in some communities They can't have a meeting if we're not there now That's a different that's a different thing that we're doing And a different lift for our field staff So and we're struggling the same way that everybody is like Making sure folks are compensated well And taking care of To do the work that they're doing so Yes, can I say we love Travis? Yeah, we do Great Let's say we like him so much we had to the meeting early just so we could watch a Denver Broncos football game to say We do too Yes And always Right, right Well good Okay Okay, well, thank you. Well, and thank you all. Thanks for tolerating my Confusion don't worry about it Okay Good enough We'll have a great thanksgiving. Yeah, you all too. Thank you Okay items 17 We've shared some stuff on climate change just have any does anyone have anything else to share? Yeah Yeah, a lot of momentum stuff has happened Well, first of all 35 million dollars went out to make sure 20,000 from our families of low income 80 less than area media income have heat this winter, which is important But most importantly is last thursday the legislative committee on ministry of rules voted four to two Um to pass the clean car There's low and zero emission vehicle regulation which requires all auto dealers in Vermont to receive delivery of electric vehicles or zero emission vehicles in greater numbers Starting in 2026 at 35 percent of their inventory going up to 100 percent of their inventory in 2035 Similar but different requirements also for trucks class three and up that includes ambulances and fire trucks garbage trucks even oil trucks Have to meet a different standard for Reaching electric or zero emissions Can it happen? Will it happen? We don't know but it's based on the california Clean car rule that vermont and about a dozen other states are in the process of adopting Right. Well, isn't volvo going all electric in three years or So, I mean it will happen the challenge will be and you'll hear from me on this on other occasions, which is It doesn't automatically mean that our local dealers will get those cars There has to be certain investments that have to be made in order to accommodate The electric vehicles specifically having four ports 150 kw dc fast chargers So that investment will have to be made By the local dealers in order to take delivery of the electric vehicles from their oems their original equipment manufacturers And that might involve more impervious surface that might involve changing parking lots and striping and that may involve Stuff that comes before the development review board. So all things that will happen in the next couple of years Okay Does anyone else have any other thoughts to share? I just want to recommend the ezra Klein show from last week with bill mckibben Calling in from cap 27. I thought it was a really enlightening hour helped me certainly approach tonight's discussion with more information and I just thank my daughter. She knows She misses me, but she says you're going to make sure I have a future mom That's a lot to me If I if I could also follow up It's a lot Yeah, Ellen Yes, the answer to your early question look it up on ea a 4.2 million gallons of jet a fuel In vermont according to the energy information Administration and about 450 million gallons of av gas That's what goes into like sesnas and those types of planes by comparison south brilinton uses a couple hundred thousand gallons of heating oil About about five million gallons of aviation fuel though okay Other business Seeing none. We um Tim do you have the I do So, uh, I would like to move that the council make a specific finding that premature general public knowledge of the council's discussion of contract negotiations Pending or probable litigation to which the city is or may be a party and confidential attorney client communication made for the purpose of Providing professional legal services to this body would clearly place the city at a substantial disadvantage second All in favor And I now move that the board enter into executive session for the purpose of discussing contract negotiations Pending or probable litigation to which the city is or may be a party And confidential attorney client communications inviting jesse baker andrew bulldoch chief steve lock chief shanberg and collin mcneil second All in favor