 The host of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Sea program. Today, we're going across the sea with three Hawaii lawyers. All three of my guests have extensive experience and exceptional expertise in the representation of international clients, especially from Asia, including Korea, Japan, and China. My guests are Amanda Chang, Christine Kubota, and Kai Wong. Amanda Chang is of counsel to Clay Chapman, Iwamura, Police, and Nervell. Amanda practices in the area of immigration law and is very active in the Korean community. Christine Kubota is a director of Daemon-Kee Leong Kupchak Hastard. Christine practices in the firm's corporate, commercial, and real estate law practice groups, primarily with Japanese-speaking clients. Kai Wong is a partner at Carl Smith Ball. Kai leads the firm's transactional practice group and its Greater China Practice Group. Kai's practice focuses on the areas of real estate, land use, hospitality, and foreign investment in real estate in Hawaii. All three of my guests have legal expertise. However, they also have an intimate and personal insight and knowledge of the culture, circumstances, and goals of their clients and the international communities that they represent. We all know we're living in unusual times. I've asked my guests to share their knowledge and insights with us about their clients, Asia, the international practice of law, and they've graciously agreed to do so. I'm gonna ask each of them questions and I hope these questions will open up opportunities for other discussion, further, longer discussions. Right now, my first question to Amanda and I'll ask the rest of you also. Thank you for being here, first of all, thank you all of you for being here. My first question, what is the biggest issue raised by your international clients over the past year? Amanda. Thanks so much for having me here. Last year is a very unusual time. So it's kind of hard to carve out what was the most difficult in 2020, but I would say COVID-19 stopped basically most of the travelers coming from Korea to Hawaii, specifically because the quarantine requirement required by Hawaii is extensive, 14 days now to 10 days, but in Korea also 14 days when they return. So if somebody were to come from Korea to Hawaii, they will just be quarantined for one month in both countries. So it kind of halted. So that kind of changed the landscape of business as usual between Korea and Hawaii here. But one thing I can just say is we have so many investors coming from Korea, buying up and developing. For example, I can just tell you, maybe Kapilani residents, Sky Alamoana, Alamoana Central, and now there is a, the park at Keamoku is coming up on Keamoku near a Rycroft and Leona, that whole super block we used to call it. So still the very, very investment friendly, and then Korea is very much interested in Hawaii. And even though they couldn't come physically, a lot of tourists, the business are still ongoing. Ah, that is interesting and also hopeful. Christine, what's your insight? I did tell what Amanda just said about the travel restrictions. There is a restriction in Japan that you have to be quarantined for two weeks once you get back. So it's very difficult to have a quick one day meeting. So it's really stopped a lot of the travel. Another thing is they don't understand how things are here in Waikiki. I mean, at the early beginning, like from March all the way through maybe September, even a little bit now, Waikiki was like a ghost town. It was very difficult for me to explain to my clients that it's really, really, you know, bad here and that the hotels were closed. The big issues that I had were landlord tenant issues and now the key issues, whether foreigners can apply or not apply. I did a lot of estate plan issues because people were afraid of what was going to happen. So those were like the three primary areas during the last year. And, you know, Kai, I want to ask you, but I'm starting to hear that there's still work and so Kai, what are the issues raised by your international clients over the past year? Sure, Mark. It's very good to be here. Thank you for inviting me. I'm gonna make a quick correction. I'm the head of our China practice group, but I'm a member of our transactional practice group. Anyhow, I concur with what Amanda and Chris said so far, but my perspective is slightly different in terms of, you know, I can roughly divide the, I mean, it's really difficult Mark to single out a single most sort of, you know, important issue. So I can give you a spectrum of the issues. One category would be pandemic related. The other would be non-pandemic related, non-pandemic related, you know, from time to time because of my vast sort of network in China and Hong Kong, Singapore. I entertains, you know, increase about patent persecution, wealth management, estate planning. You know, China just became the largest producer of patentable innovation you mentioned back in 2019. So there are a lot of needs for application for patents in the US. Of course, you know, my firm doesn't do it. Unfortunately, I have to refer them out. Regarding sort of, you know, pandemic related, it really depends on, you know, the clients sort of first stage in their investing into the US. For clients are still in China, they are asking, I mean, you know, as early as in late November when Biden had, so there's a science that Biden's gonna win, I started receiving increase from China looking for bargain deals, you know, in Waikiki, you know, high in hotels. Unfortunately, there hasn't been any good bargains. But, you know, if a client has made substantial amounts of money into Hawaii, unsurprisingly, you know, they are sort of a little bit of financial strength because of what's going on, you know, because of the pandemic as well as China's restrictions for capital flow. So they're just like local companies. And, you know, I call what Chris was saying, I had several evictions, some were possession proceedings, you know, representing mostly landlords. Also, there are, you know, for exporters of PPE, protective equipment of China, they are having disputes, so handling a few disputes, payment delays, you know, shipment delays. You know, this is quite interesting because what I'm hearing from all of you is that despite the COVID-19 pandemic, you're still busy, you're still doing a lot of work, things are still going on. And in fact, the COVID-19 has maybe created some more opportunities. I want to follow up kind of on an issue I'm going to ask Christine first. You know, Kai mentioned that her clients were talking about the election and what is the current relationship between United States and the Asian countries where your clients come from? This is a question for all of you, but I'll start with Christine. The US has always had a very good relationship. I don't think anything has changed because of COVID or anything. I think if anything, they're relying on each other more. So I'm not really worried about that. I think, I hate to say this, but the change from Trump to Biden administration I think is helping. We had a really hard time and I think Amanda will agree with me that the immigration, the visa issues, they're very, very difficult. Usually the turnaround, for example, would be six months, it would then become one year. I mean, but hopefully things will change because of the new administration. Japan, for COVID purposes, is having a hard time with the vaccine. They just approved it, the first shipment came in. They're a little late and that doesn't help the Hawaii-Japan relationship. I mean, the faster they can come here with their vaccines, the better it will be for the economy. I have no issues with respect to the relationship between the two countries. And Hawaii is especially, we're very, very, very close to Japan. And so I have no problems with that aspect. That's good to hear. Now, Kai, I'll ask you next and I know that there's been some China issues, so what are we at? Right, unfortunately, I cannot say the same as what Chris just shared. So especially under the Trump administration, the tension right between these two countries following political tension and trade war had really hit bottom, I would say. Fortunately, under the Biden administration, we have already seen positive changes. So in terms of the relationship dynamics, I do see two forces at work coming from my clients or prospective clients. On the one hand, Chinese are not naive. They realize regardless of who's in the White House, the end game, the objective is gonna be the same, which is to contain China, to slow down China's trajectory to become the world's number one economy. Based on some predictions, there are a lot of research institutions, think tanks, they're projecting that China's economy by dollar terms will be overtaking the US in seven years. So five years earlier, that's gonna happen in 2028. Of course, we're talking about not pro-capital. So from that standpoint, they say that the only difference, perhaps says the Biden administration will do it in a more subtle way. So knowing that there's gonna be caution, I mean, extreme caution among the Chinese investment community to avoid investment risks, because they're still waiting and saying, it's still too early to say, right? Even though there are some changes, but it's hard. So they're trying down to, there's a huge cash surplus in China. It's like amazing, because they just become the number one FDI destination last year in the entire world. So they have a great flows of capital inflow that creates, in turn creates cash surplus. So this money, how to channel this money? So some of the more cautious investors, they try to bypass the US instead of they're going to other continents. So that's one sort of more cautious approach. But on the other hand, the US remains the best, most attractive investment destination. I mean, look at the stock market. It's like amazing. Look at all this growth, the best stock market in the world. So the Chinese from a purely economic standpoint, they don't wanna miss out. So they're still looking for opportunities, try to navigate between these two countries. So hopefully there's gonna be some relaxation. Well, that sounds like they're waiting and seeing. Amanda, what is your point of view from your clients? You know, I focus on immigration as my expertise. And I think Korea and US relationship has been really solid and very friendly, started in the mid 1940s and now since then. It's always been continuously, regardless of the administrations in the US or in Korea, Korea and US have been great partners and trading as well as the political and international issues, Korea and US are very solid in terms of friendship and partnership. And last year and this year, I would say Chris kind of pointed out a little bit about some immigration issues being kind of hectic and difficult. But I think it has to do more with a pandemic lockdown and physical embassies closing down for a specific amount of time, eliminates all the visa interviews and whatnot. And then that made it very difficult, not just the pandemic related a lockdown or quarantine. So visa issuance was kind of halted due to the closure of the embassies and the administration of Trump kind of halting all immigrant visas coming from anywhere, saying that we don't wanna have foreign nationals, not just from Korea, from anywhere, everywhere, coming to the US as permanent residents and taking up our employment in the US when we are already hurting. So he basically halted all the immigrant visa and even non-immigrant visa issues, as I said a little earlier, physical lockdown and then delay in scheduling interviews and whatnot, change the number of not only immigrants, but also non-immigrant visa issuance have gone down dramatically as a result of the pandemic. More so than I would say the administration, different presidents have different policies, but I think the pandemic has a great impact in the immigration arena. And so it sounds again now like Japan and Korea sounds like we're okay and things are feeling a little better actually under the new administration. And China is still waiting to see they're a little cautious because they feel there's competition and they wanna be concerned. They don't wanna just give up. They wanna be number one and that's where they're going. And so that's kind of sounds that we're okay. We're okay, the relationships are okay. And that's good. I mean, what I'm hearing from all of you is actually kind of hopeful under the circumstances which makes me feel good. I, you know, from your client's perspective and from what you're saying, you know, we've gone through a weird time and now I wanna ask a question about the weird time and the COVID-19 and what each of your country's clients have done and start with you, Kai. You know, we've been facing the COVID-19 pandemic. What have your country's clients and your client's country's done with respect to COVID-19? And what do you learn from it? Sure, I mean, you know, it really depends on the location of a particular client. I have like conglomerate clients. So they have a presence in the U.S. as well as, you know, their headquarters are back at home. So because of the different measures, the different government putting in place in facing the pandemic, I believe Asian countries as a whole have done a marvelous job at managing, you know, effectively managing the pandemic. And China actually doesn't really get the credit. You know, that's true, but that's fine. China bashing is so prevalent. But they, I mean, a lot of the figures tell the story. You know, back in the first quarter of 2020, they start for the great deal because it's, you know, the China experience turns out to be truly informative for me, for us, right? You know, back in the first half of 2020, I've been in close communications with my friends in high places, you know, back in China. And they all telling me, oh my God, you know, these things are gonna be so destructive to the economy. Quite true, you know, first quarter, second quarter, huge dip. But then because of the Joakunian measures, the government put in place very strict quarantine process, testing, testing, testing, and tracing, you know, it's just better control. So in the third quarter, their GDP growth grew by the rate went up by 6.5%. So for the entire year 2020 as a whole, their GDP growth reached 2.3%, whereas the rest of the world was negative. So when I was talking to, because of my background in the hospitality industry, which is the hardest hit industry, I mean, just look at our hotels in Waikiki, but in a third quarter last year, when I was talking to my friends, no leaders in all the international chains back in China, they were like, hey, you know what, Kai, we are gonna beat our 2019's performance. So that's China, but you know, for my clients in the US, like I said, they're having a difficult time due to financial strengths and delays. So we're just waiting, you know, they're trying to cut down costs and try to find ways to recover. Okay, Amanda, what are your clients' countries doing with respect to COVID-19? What can we learn? You know, my clients, or Korean visitors and investors or people in general, they really like the US as allies, as I said earlier. In fact, that's just reminded me, in Korea, the way they address the US is called Mi-Gug. Mi-Gug is a Korean word for the United States of America. If you see the characters they use, Mi is beauty or beautiful, Gug is a country. So they even show in the name they call America as a beautiful country. So I think in spite of this very difficult times, I think Korean attitudes or investment or thoughts towards the US really didn't change much. We have always been friends, like Korea and the US. And one thing that I also wanna share that maybe hopefully we can also learn in the US looking at Koreans' way of dealing with the pandemic is that Koreans have a very, they are, you know, they obey. I wanna use the word obey, but I'm not sure that that is a politically correct word. But when government says, okay, lockdown, they do listen. When they say wear masks everywhere, they listen. They said, don't gather beyond four people. Right now, I think their maximum number of gathering is four. So they listen. And then they also are very good at disinfecting everything, everywhere, public roads, stations, trains and subways. And so they're really good at disinfecting everywhere, as well as listening to what government has to say. And lately, however, there's one thing that kind of disturbed me. Somebody was telling me about the way Korean government watches foreign nationals or anybody for that matter, doesn't have to be foreign nationals, but anybody who's returning from foreign country, getting into Korea, they have a 14-day lockdown, self-quarantine. They ask people surrounding these traveler if they come out of their living quarter or hotel where they supposed to be quarantining themselves. The person who report to the police or government agency gets a hundred bucks per report. So I thought, that sounds like, wow, that's amazingly, I don't know, I was really disturbed by the thought of people watching their friends and relatives and neighbors per se. I mean, would you know if you don't know them, right? So I really thought that was kind of interesting way Korean government is kind of being too restrictive or strict with dealing with the pandemic at this point. Christine, what are your thoughts? Well, most of them, 99% of people I spoke to, they want to come to Hawaii, they want to come, they want to come, they want to come, but they cannot, they cannot. So every time I talk to them is like, I wonder if we can go in March, I wonder if we can go in August, I wonder if we can go in October. I mean, and we can't go either. So, you know, Americans cannot travel to Japan unless you have a visa and it's, the consulate has told me that it has to be very special. Usually they issued it here, but now they're issuing it based on Japan direction. So it's going to be a lot harder. So somebody has to be dying or you have to go to a funeral or something like that. And so that communication gap is really, is very disturbing for me because, you know, it's very frustrating. The Japanese though, they don't have police power like we do. And so they can only ask, they can only ask, please wear your mask, please do this, please do that, please stay home. It's almost very similar to the state government and the federal government, but they have prefectural governments and then they have the national government. And so they're all kind of like bucking each other. They're saying, you know, who's going to pay for all of this, cost, this, this, so that seems to be like the running thing on the news every day. But as I said earlier, at least they're coming in with the vaccine. They're going to be vaccinating the doctors, the frontline workers first, and then people over 65, but there's just millions of people over there. So I don't know how that's going to work out, but from the news, it looks like they're going to take reservations, blah, blah, blah. So that's helpful. But between us and Japan, I mean, they really, really want to come here. A lot of investors have condos here. They have to pay, they have to clean up, they have to do certain things they're worried about their real property tax. They're worried about, you know, they can sell if it's still a good investment, if tenants are going to pay. I mean, those kinds of things are just constant. One more good thing is that the stock market went up a lot yesterday in Japan based on their outlook that things are going to get better. So we will hope and pray that things will get better. Okay. And a lot of what I hear from you too, seems maybe cultural too. Some of the cultural and governmental impacts. Now we have about three minutes left. And I'd like to ask you each to take a minute and starting with Christine. What have you learned about life and the practice of law during these strange days from your experience with your clients and international law? I think it boils down to human behavior. Law can only, justice can only go so far. I mean, it's just human behavior. COVID I think is teaching us to work together and to come up with innovative new ideas. I mean, I think lawyers hopefully will always be needed, but it's really, really human behavior. And I think we're learning a lot from this corona. Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting the international impact and your things that you've said. You too, right, Mark? I mean, you know, it's creating an opportunity for things that we never even thought of, you know, things we thought we could do. I mean, you know, so I think hopefully we'll bring the world together closer. Kai. Oh, sure. I have like several reflections. And you know, number one, I feel so grateful that we are living in Hawaii. As my friends telling me there are much worse places to get stuck at than Hawaii. So number two, I echo what Chris was just alluding to, you know, I'm a true believer of for every crisis there lies opportunity. And you know, looking back now, this pandemic had somehow become the catalyst for technological advancement. I mean, look at us today, you know, we can have this show via Zoom. And then, you know, talking about deliveries, you know, people are now use online app and you know, draw delivery. And for some restaurants in China, they are using artificial intelligence, robots actually working in the kitchen and you know, serving dishes. You know, that is just whatever you say, you know, the paradigm shaped advancement. It's just amazing. For that reason, I think, you know, as a whole human race, we are going to emerge from this pandemic for the better. In terms of, sorry, Mark, in terms of legal practice, you know, happiness can change. I enjoy so much working from home, remote, you know, working from home. Amanda, finish this off. What are your thoughts? One thing I learned is how small this world is really. You know, you have a one virus happening at one place and just within minutes, I don't want to say within days, just within minutes or days, we have it at another place is popping out. So we are in this together, whether you are in Hawaii or in South Africa, wherever you are. And law is law, we will still be there after this pandemic is all over, but we all got to care for each other. And as Kai said, there's always an opportunity, whenever there's a crisis, it's like one door closes and you have another door opening and you always make the most out of what you have. And even under this pandemic, there are people who are more profitable or successful and caring for family. There are a lot of things that's good coming out of this pandemic. So instead of looking at the gloomy part of it, I would say look forward and then do most and do best as we can under this pandemic. You know, I really appreciate your positive thoughts from all of you. Those are great. And there's things that I think are truly we've learned. So Amanda Chang, Christine Kubota, Kai Wong, thank you all for being here today and being on this virtual program and look forward to our further discussions and all of these things, but very hopeful, very promising and good things to learn from the practice of law, especially international law and dealing with your clients. So Aloha to all of you. Thank you for having us. Thank you.