 To Life in the Law on Think Tech, this is Carol Mon Lee and I'm your host today with our guest, John Egan. John is an immigration lawyer and will be speaking to us about careers in immigration law and a lot of the national issues that are affecting our community today. So I'm going to just jump right in, John. So John was a graduate of the William S. Richardson School of Law class of 2000 when I had- I'm very proud of it. And I remember that class very well and I believe you were the graduation speaker. I was, yes. Yes. Oh, welcome. How long have you been an immigration lawyer because I know this is not your first career? Well, ever since I graduated from the law school, which was in 2000, in fact I was more or less recruited right out of my law school last class in immigration law by the adjunct professor there, Jim Stanton, a great guy and he turned out to be a mentor for me and taught me a lot about immigration law and I've been at it ever since. But you said, and what did you do before you went to law school? Because I know it's your second career. Well, my last job before going back to school was I was a field officer for the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. I had done a couple of posts in South Central Africa that was at that time in the mid-90s. Africa was kind of a mess. There were refugees all over the place. The UN had a lot of personnel on the ground and that's what I did, managing refugee camps in Africa. And so did that pick your interest then in continuing in immigration law? Well, I had sort of a thought that I would be able to do something international, something with human rights and something in Hawaii. Well, the Hawaii part didn't really mesh that well with that mix, but immigration was about as close as you can get and it's worked out quite well. Right. Interest in immigration law is very interesting and very topical because as the national news and actually international news has recently been publishing stories about Jared Kushner in the EB-5 situation in China, but your interest in immigration law then, having stem from your work beforehand, do you find that that is a common way then to get into immigration law? Is it a difficult career to get into these days? Well, I wouldn't say that it's that difficult to get into. The Kushner example is kind of interesting because it shows that there's really two different sides of immigration law. I came into it from the humanitarian side, refugees, displaced people and so on. But there's also a very viable and very interesting part of immigration law that's about the business side of immigration, the EB-5 visa that you're talking about. And you know there was a case in the news just this last week here in Hawaii, a Chinese developer trying to put up a big building on Sheridan Avenue and was using EB-5 investment money to support that. The EB-5 program essentially without getting into great detail is if someone is willing to come into the country and bring at least a million dollars into an investment that's going to generate both income and employment in the United States, they can get a visa and then a green card. So there's a lot of that going on. The Kushner family seem to be kind of pushing the ethical bounds of that a bit. But it's actually a very interesting program. So your particular practice are you focused more on the humanitarian side or the business side? We do some business immigration. I would say in Hawaii we're probably overall the entire field of immigration law is predominantly family-based immigration. The humanitarian side is here. That's refugees, asylum seekers, victims of trafficking, this sort of thing. But by and large the biggest chunk of immigration law is the family-based immigration law where somebody has a family member overseas. They want to bring them in, get them a visa, have them come live with the family. Or very commonly, where a young person, not always young, decides to get married to a foreign national and wants them to live here in the United States and get a green card. So that's the family side. I'd say that's 80% of all immigration work in Hawaii. I see. And about how many immigration lawyers are there in the state? Well there's a bar group for immigration lawyers, the part of the American Immigration Lawyers Association. There's a Hawaii sub-chapter and it has about 60 members. Now not all of those 60 are doing immigration full-time, but that's the size of the bar. It's not a big group. On all islands. Well actually it includes Guam and Saipan as well. So it's a mixed group. Not a big number, but not a small number either. Is it a growing population, lawyers? Well there's a lot of interest right now, as you mentioned earlier, all of this new business going on with the Trump administration has created a stronger sense that maybe people need to be more alert to some of these issues. The travel ban. The travel ban for example, increased border security. These sort of issues are creating more interest and a lot of young people seem to be getting lots of calls from young people saying well you know I'm in law school, I'm looking for something to do this summer, do you have any openings for you know internships or clerkships like that. So I think there is interest. I think that there is room for some expansion, but time will tell how much of this is passing interest and whether it's going to be a permanent phenomenon. So you said that about 80% of the practice of immigration law in Hawaii is family related and is that about what yours is too? Yes, absolutely. So even though you did the human rights work before you went to law school, you're not doing that much right now, that's not much of a work? Well the human rights work, by the nature of it, it's mostly pro bono. So you take as much as you can handle and then you have to make a living. So what kind of human rights are you doing in Hawaii? Do you have any tips? Well I can't get into real great detail because it's confidential but we have a person from a Central African country where there's civil disorder who managed to get here and apply for asylum and I took his case as a pro bono piece. I have a person from one of the target countries, one of the banned countries that's in the civil war, Middle East dinner with an asylum case, trying to get his family over with him to join him. These sort of things, even here in Hawaii out in the middle of the Pacific, we do see these kind of cases and I do handle most of that type of case pro bono publico. So is that all federal court then? Well it's federal in the sense that immigration court is a federal function but it's not in the federal district courts generally. Immigration law can get into district court but by and large it's administrative law. So we deal with the agencies, particularly USCIS, Citizenship and Immigration Services or with the immigration court which is a subdivision of the Department of Justice. So even immigration court is actually an administrative law judge more than you would think of as a federal district judge. So I know in Alamoana Bovard there's the building, right? Is that where the immigration court is? The immigration building that you see at 595 Alamoana, it's a beautiful old building, historic piece. That was the immigration station originally here in Hawaii because we were right next to the docks. It was coming in on ships, they passed through there, get their documents and move on. That is now, it's still operated by the Department of Homeland Security which is where all the immigration functions are now located but the US, the service part is over in what we used to call restaurant row, waterfront plaza and they've got very nice new offices up there and that's where they operate for the benefit side of immigration. Who was left over on the side by the harbor is the enforcement side, US ICE. ICE. And so what percentage of your work requires you to go to court? Well it seems to be picking back up. When I first started it was probably 30% of my workload. Then it diminished quite a bit, things quieted down and then during the Obama administration they purposely defocused on just getting rid of aliens and started focusing on getting rid of criminal aliens. So the work in immigration court was reduced quite a bit. Now it seems to be coming back up. The enforcement regime is kicking in. Since January. That's right. And we're beginning to see an uptick in the cases being filed in immigration court. Do you have any suggestions for the public in terms of how to protect themselves or find out more information about preserving any rights they might have? As an immigrant, I would say make sure that you have your papers in order and that you have access to them. It's surprising how cavalier people can be about the law says if you're a foreign national inside the United States you need to carry your identity document with you. All time. And that identity document would be your green card, so-called, which is actually a permanent resident card and any other documents that you might have, for example a student would have his student visa and a passport. We forget these things but if you're a foreign national like when we go traveling, you're supposed to have your passport with you. People don't and you could probably get away with a photocopy but a lot of people disregard that altogether and they can run into problems. And so the risk is they get stopped by- Yes, and then they can't prove who they are and they might actually have to spend some time behind a locked door until they manage to prove who they are and what their status really is. I think the biggest thing that people who are here should know is that with this stepped up enforcement, things that used to be quite okay may not be so okay right now. For example, specifically, if you have any kind of criminal background and it might be something that could be years and years ago, it could be something that you think is relatively minor, you should check in with an immigration lawyer before you leave the country because you may be able to go out but you may not be able to come back in. But do you think that there's fear that an immigrant in that situation might be concerned that even by disclosing his issues with an immigration lawyer that might trigger some kind of further investigation or- Well, it's true in the sense that all immigrants are in fact from someplace else and may not have a clear idea about how our legal system- And we're all immigrants, aren't we? In the end, yes. So are those of us not of Native Hawaiian ancestry or- Well, even they got here on a boat, right? So we're all immigrants, just some are sooner than others. I guess the big point really is that when you go out of the country and you come back in and you have an offense, you could actually be expelled at the border. Our system says an attorney has confidentiality responsibilities. No, if they come to my office and they want to talk about their concerns, I am not legally allowed to share it with anybody without their permission. And- That's good to know. And somebody coming from another country may not understand that. We are so-called officers of the court, so they may think that they're listening to me when I talk with them. That's not so. You're not bugged. No. As far as I know. Right. So a career in immigration law, is it something that you needed a lot of training in addition of passing the bar and a lot of rules and- Yes, there's a lot of very specific things you do need to learn about. The standard method of getting into immigration law is to work with someone who's been in the field for a while, to be mentored in for at least the first year or two. Some people would say more, but after a couple of years, you can probably make your way. Less than a couple of years, you're really- there's a pretty steep learning curve. There's just a lot of detail. One of the things that surprises people so much is just how much learning you have to keep doing. I spend about a half an hour every day just looking at what happened since yesterday in immigration law. So it's a fast moving- Very fast moving. Well, let's take a short break, John. And this is ThinkTech Hawaii. And with my guest, John Egan, we're talking about life in the law, specifically immigration law. We'll be right back. You're watching ThinkTech on ThinkTechHawaii.com, which broadcasts five live talk shows from noon to 5 p.m. every weekday. And then streams our earlier shows all night long. Great content for Hawaii from ThinkTech. Hi, I'm Carol Cox. I'm the new host of Eyes on Hawaii. Make sure you stay in the know on Hawaii. Join us on Tuesdays at 12 noon. We will see you then. Aloha. Welcome back. This is Carol Monlion, life in the law with my special guest, John Egan, an immigration lawyer who's been bringing us up to date on a lot of the latest developments and issues that is of growing concern both in our community and nationwide. So thanks for being with us, John. It's my pleasure. We were talking at the break a little bit about some of the sad stories that are happening and that you as an immigration lawyer and the field of immigration law has to address. And can you share with us some of the issues? Yes. One of the hardest things that we observe is when someone who has been here in the United States for years and years and years comes face to face with the enforcement rules and finds himself having to leave the country or being taken out of the country and being split apart from their family. That's the hardest thing to watch. And so that is because they come to the United States, but then somehow enforcement finds out their status, their status gets distinguished. Well, we don't have a huge undocumented population here in the sense that on the mainland, people can just walk over the border. You can't walk over the border to get to Hawaii. You have to arrive somehow legally, although sometimes the people who come in illegally to the mainland manage to get here. That's a little tricky, but they do. So they may have never had any papers at all, but do have family ties here now after years and years. And then they may be found out, because if you enter the country illegally, there's a very, very, very small window that you might be able to crawl through and legalize. But for most people who come in illegally, they can be here the rest of their lives and they're never going to get status. And you mentioned you had a child who you are representing, who is in... Well, we're now seeing actually, you know, this has been a crisis for the last three years at the southern border. We've seen a lot of people coming up from Central America, children, some unaccompanied children, some with mothers, and coming in because they're fleeing from the violence and disorder in Central America. Some of those children actually managed to get here to Hawaii. Some have relatives here, and yes, some of them have been in immigration court. Really just heartbreaking stories, because whatever the rhetoric is out there, these people are leaving their homes for a reason. And then what can you do as an immigration lawyer? Are you trying to process their status, change their status? When there is a reasonable case to be made that they are legitimately fearing persecution in their home country, those people have the opportunity to apply for asylum. It's really hard with children because, you know, they're not really sure they understand what's going on in the first place. So their ability to relate that in a courtroom context is difficult. So you mean you have children at what age and they can actually plead asylum to stay? Well, there is no age limit on applying for asylum. Or minimum. There's no minimum. So anybody can apply. Our immigration court here has a pretty good approach to handling those cases. And I've been very encouraged to see the way they've responded to that crisis. Not so much in some places on the mainland. In fact, now we're hearing stories of people just simply being turned back and pushed back over the Mexican border along the southern border. We're seeing a little bit more compassion here and that's something that I appreciate, if not everyone. So are most asylum cases in Hawaii from the American side as opposed to Asia or other locations? Oh goodness. We get them from all over. You'd be surprised. You know, Middle East and Central Africa. Come to Hawaii for asylum. I have those cases right now. We see anywhere from Pakistan to Eastern Europe. And how difficult is it for you to obtain asylum for them successfully? Well, honestly, a lot depends on their actual story and experiences. Being absolutely straightforward and blunt, most of the cases that come in for asylum to my office, I don't believe them. Really? I would say at least half of the people who come in say, well, I think I'd like to claim asylum. Why don't you help me? And I say, OK, well, let's talk about what that involves. And when I've heard their stories, you know, you're bluffing. This is not a real story. So what is some of the criteria? Not all, but some. Well, there has to be a reasonable fear of persecution. If they went back to their homeland. Or a history of persecution. So either you've been persecuted or you're not going back because you fear being persecuted if you do go back. And it isn't just any kind of persecution. It has to be on the basis of race, religion, political opinion, membership in a social group, ethnicity. It's a limited scope. But there are people who are willing to fib. And there are. By the third time you've heard exactly the same story from a different person, you begin to think, well, maybe this isn't straight up. So yes, there's that sort of a problem. But when there is a legitimate case to be made, my experience is that both the USCIS, they have an asylum office specifically trained people to take care of these types of cases, and our immigration court are very open-minded about how long does it take to successfully conduct asylum? Well, if someone is in immigration court here in Hawaii, it can go by in a few months. So they walk into your office, plead asylum, and maybe in a few months you can actually get a reservation. Well, the procedural aspects are a little different than that. Because often the first step is that you would apply with USCIS, the Citizenship and Immigration Service, through the asylum office, and then you are scheduled for an asylum interview. Right now, asylum interviews through the California Asylum Office, which is, we're under their jurisdiction, two and a half years. To wait for the interview. To wait for your initial interview. Yes. Oh. And is that something that typically you as a lawyer would accompany them to? Yes. Not all lawyers do, and I don't see how in the world they can accept money for a case that they don't actually participate in at the interview. People have different views of this, but that's the crucible. That's when the Immigration Service listens to that person's story, asks them questions, and makes a determination whether they're credible and whether this story is truly factual. So do you find, you said there was a growing area of your practice, asylum cases? It's coming back now. Yeah. Yes, it is. What percentage? Probably less than 10, but they're in there. And remember, some of these cases go on a long time. Right. Okay. And if you fail at your initial stage, then you go through another process of appeals or referral to Immigration Court. And in the meantime, they can still stay in Hawaii. That's right. They're allowed to stay. Do you find a lot of abuses, you mentioned lying, people coming for pleading asylum but really don't have a strong case? Are there other concerns, types of... Well, of course, you know, the most common one is marriage fraud, where people shape up and frame up a fake marriage in order to get a green card. That still goes on. It's a real thing. It's not huge numbers, but it's real. And our immigration office here is quite certain that they are going to look at every case and see that that's not part of the picture, and they're actually pretty good at it. I don't think that many fakers get through. It's possible. I've had at least one case in my own history where I was surprised later on to find out that this was probably not a real marriage. But I don't want those cases. They come in, and if I don't believe it's a real marriage, I'm not having their case. But legitimate immigration cases are more common, of course. Yes. They're a vast majority. They did a bit of a survey to see how many marriage-based green cards were based on fake marriages. That was way less than 1%. It's a real thing. It's a real problem, and it shouldn't be permitted. But it's not something that people need to be overly wired up about. So briefly, we just have a few more minutes. Tell me about, there's some upcoming programs for lawyers in immigration law, right? Access to justice in the HSD. Well, right. The Access to Justice program happens every summer. It's mostly for lawyers, but it's open to the legal community broadly. That'll be happening in June at the law school. And Bowman Chen, I think you want to know him. Yes, I know him. He used to teach. Does he still teach? He does still teach at the law school. And another prominent immigration attorney here, Gary Sing, and I will be doing a program on how to promote more pro bono activity, volunteer work in immigration by the general bar. Great. And then there's an Access to Justice program? Well, that's the one. That's the one. Okay. There was another program at the Bar Association where we were also, again, talking about what people need to know in order to assist and how to screen immigration cases and what to do with them once you screen them. Great. Well, we just have a few seconds left, John, and I'm going to let you look right into camera, too, and give us some of your last minute concerns. Last minute thoughts. This whole area of immigration is pretty complicated, but there is information available. If you're an immigrant and you need to find out what this is all about, my firm does a once a month program the first Monday of every month. We have an open session. We use the conference room at our office building on Kalakaua in Waikiki. Just come in, ask any question you want. There'll be an immigration attorney there. We cost a dime, and we don't take names. You just come in and ask questions. We give information. You can find that information on our website, migrationcouncil.com. Very easy, very accessible, no commitments required. The information just needs to get out there, and that's what we do. Okay. Well, thank you so much, John. It's been my pleasure. Yeah. Well, that brings us to the end of our show today. I have enjoyed bringing it to you, and I'm your host, Carol Monley. Our guest, John Eakin, has been talking to us about immigration law and immigration in America, addressing the issue of whether immigration law is or should be an exciting area for young lawyers to follow, and of course, for our community to understand and learn from. So thank you to our production engineer, Richard, Rich Papouse, and our floor manager, Ray Sangalang, and all the people who care and contribute to our think tech productions. If you would like to see this show again, go to thinktechhawaii.com or youtube.com slash thinktechawaii, where there will be a link to more shows just like this one. Thanks for watching, and we'll see you again next time. Aloha.