 Good evening and welcome to another episode of unlock the door radio with your host Michael cross with you see white TV productions Tonight we are going to have a very special guest We've had him on before and that's Sam Votman who is an expert on Narcissism and psychopathic and as you know those people who visited my website at Michael cross net I Deal with that quite a bit and tonight we get a chance to hear from a leading expert in the field. Hello, Sam Hello, Mike. Thank you for having me yet again. I Just want to start off before we get into the telltale signs What's the difference between a psychopath and a narcissist? That's an excellent question and there are quite a few authorities in the field who believe that their distinctions are distinctions of They are quantitative rather than qualitative. In other words, they they regard a psychopath as an exaggerated narcissist Well, that's partly true. They both lie on a spectrum of lack of empathy. So lack of empathy characterizes both But psychopaths are also usually Sadistic they take they take pleasure in inflicting pain on other people Some of them even find the infliction of pain funny So that's one difference. Second difference is that narcissists are capable of controlling their impulses and delaying gratification They are long-term planners They are capable of implementing career plans and career path Climbing the corporate ladder and so on and so forth. So we find narcissists in many positions of power and authority in Politics and show business in the corporate world Psychopaths on the other hand are unable to control their impulses and usually unable to delay gratification And that's why they are over rep over represented in the prison population among criminals another thing is that Narcissists are more capable of Establishing maintaining preserving and nurturing interpersonal relationships Even though they do it for very selfish reasons They want to extract narcissistic supply from their nearest and dearest But they still are capable of maintaining these relationships Psychopaths are usually not capable of maintaining any long-term relationships. They are they they go for the mark They hit the person for money or for sex or for other benefits and then they vanish and Finally both the psychopath and the narcissists are in a way antisocial in other words They disregard society its conventions social cues social treaties. They are poor Authority But the psychopath carries this disdain to the extreme Psychopath is likely to be scheming calculated ruthless Callous and very often career criminal Narcissists are more Act in more socially acceptable ways So you narcissists are usually pillars of the community They are chief executive officers They they become presidents and prime ministers while psychopaths end up being bosses of crime families or Something similar corn artists So these are subtle distinctions admittedly and I also think that they are the Distinctions of quantity rather than quality, but sometimes quantity counts Okay, so I guess what a lot of people would like to know is How can you tell what are some of the telltale signs of a 10 telltale signs that you might be either dating? Let's just specifically say a narcissist You might have one as a husband or wife or Maybe a member of your family or a close friend. What are the signs that should alert people? Well, first let's dispel an important myth There is a myth that narcissists being the great actors that they are Narcissists are possessed of thespian skills. They are great at putting on a facade They're great at acting. They're great, you know, and that's all true So there is this myth that because they are these great actors. It's impossible to tell That someone is a narcissist until well into the relationship And that is not true at all both narcissists and psychopaths a meat subtle, but totally discernible signs warning signs red alerts that Should put you on guard even on a first encounter And so there I would say there are well, there are you know dozens of these but the important ones are these Alloplastic defenses the tendency to blame every mistake every failure every mishap every misfortune on other people on the world at large The inability to assume personal responsibility to admit to false and to miscalculations to these people keep blaming other people They blame the cab driver the waiter the weather the government the universe the CIA and you So alloplastic defenses The second thing second tell tale sign and you know these are the plastic defenses are expressed on the first encounter on the first date The first time you meet a narcissist or a psychopath He's likely to rant and rave on how hostile and stupid the world is on how Evil my malicious and calculating his boss is on how How his wife doesn't understand him and so on so forth so putting the blame on other people is Something that emerges on a first encounter second thing is hypersensitivity or What we call in psychological parlance hyper vigilance The narcissists and the psychopath they are hypersensitive they pick up fights They feel constantly splited injured insulted they ran Incessantly they treat weak people animals disabled people sick people children They treat them impatiently and cruelly they express negative or aggressive emotions towards the weak the poor the needy the sentimental the disabled so You can see this disdain and this contempt. It can't be hidden very effectively No matter how talented you are as an actor at the end of the day the narcissists outs The true figure the true personality outs. It's there And if you are alert enough if you are vigilant if you are attuned and if of course if you are equipped with the right information You will be able to spot a narcissist or a psychopath on the first date second thing the third thing is third sign is eagerness The narcissist and the psychopath are always eager So they push you the if you date the narcissist He pushes you to marry him on the first or second date. He's planning to have children with you on this on the third date He immediately casts you in the role of the love of his life. He presses you for exclusivity instant intimacy sex and And he's jealous is jealous from the second or third meeting if you glance at another person then you know is all over you So this eagerness this insane intensity is typical of narcissists and and psychopath The narcissists and psychopath do not respect boundaries and do not respect privacy So they are unlikely. They are very likely actually to ignore your wishes You wish to choose from the menu. He does it for you. You wish to select a movie. He has already booked the tickets You wish to he never confronts you. He disrespects your boundaries He treats you as an object an instrument of gratification. He materializes on your doorstep unexpectedly He calls you he doesn't he never calls you prior to dropping by he goes through your personal belongings He he texts and phones you multiply almost like stalking, you know So this this lack of respect for your privacy for your boundaries for your wishes for your needs is very is a telltale sign Narcissists and psychopaths are very controlling and very compulsive So he insists that you ride in his car or he insists that that he should drive not you He holds he holds on to the car keys the money the theta tickets your bag He disapproves if you go away for too long too long, you know by his own lights He interrogates you when you return. Where have you been? What have you done? He? Tries to limit your ability to meet other people including friends and family. So he tries to isolate you He insists on a dress code. He wants you to dress the way he thinks you should Etc. Etc. So he's a control freak control freakery and Compositiveness are prime signs of narcissism and psychopathy and Narcissists and psychopaths are patronizing and condescending They criticize very often they make snide comments and remarks they emphasize your For tiniest minute is false. They devalue you and other people But at the same time as they devalue you at the same time as they harshly and cruelly criticize you They also exaggerate your talents and your traits and your skills So they move like a pendulum between Idealization, you know seeing you as the brightest the most perfect the love of his life and so on on the one hand and devaluation criticizing everything you do you can never be right, you know So this pendulum movement between idealization and devaluation this cycle is very very typical of Narcissists and when the narcissist devalues and especially the psychopath when they devalue the very Violent and aggressive. They don't devalue, you know by just the Harris the ridicule they call your names They do it in public usually they devaluation and Idealization mean that the narcissist never sees you for who you really are When he idealizes you He is interacting with an object which is in his imagination because you are not ideal and When they devalues you he is equally interacting with an object and avatar in his imagination Because you are not that bad. You are not that such a failure as he makes you out to be so in both cases he you don't exist is he interacts with a Representation of you in his mind and indeed narcissists and psychopaths are incapable of perceiving other people as full-fledged three-dimensional organisms with their own needs with their own wishes fears dreams hopes and Preferences they perceive other people as instruments of gratification as cardboard cutouts as avatars Representations in a giant video game, which is called life so be aware and be careful when You meet someone and he immediately tells you that you make him feel good That you are the love of his life don't be impressed because next next thing he will tell you that it's you who makes him feel bad that you are responsible for his violence and his aggression that you provoke him and Finally I would say Hints of sadism that is less typical of narcissists. It's more typical of psychopaths hints of sadism So anything from sadistic sex fantasies of rape sexual paraphernalia's attraction to porn addiction attraction to to minors a forcefulness Ignoring your pleas and requests, you know not hearing the no And hurting you physically and finding it amusing abusing you verbally And find that finding that amusing And and of course physical violence and and especially the transition immediately after such humiliations and abuse and battering and aggression the transition from these to Suckering loving apologizing Profusely buying you gifts groveling at your feet and so on these transitions are the important sign these impossible Dual personality. I don't want to say multiple personality But sometimes it strikes it strikes the interlocutor sometimes it strikes the observer as though Narcissism psychopaths have two personalities if not more it's really like some kind of Dissociation dissociative identity disorder and in my work I suggest that pathological narcissism is a form of Dissociating dissociative identity disorder that it is a form of what used to be called multiple personality and you can't you know Why people don't notice these signs? Immediately because they don't want to On the dating scene people are usually desperate They have been looking Casting the net for so long. They've been alone for so long They haven't had sex for so many years. They haven't had companionship for decades So they tend to overlook they tend to deny ignore and suppress Any information which may lead them to the inevitable conclusion that they are dating a very mentally sick person They try to to I they are actually idealize They idealize as the narcissists and psychopaths idealize them They idealize the narcissists and psychopaths. So they find all kind of excuses, you know in deep inside is a nice man He had a difficult childhood. If I give him love, he will change. He promised to change He loves me a lot. He adores me, you know, they tell themselves all the kind of all these kind of stupid stories And I call this phenomenon malignant optimism Well, it seems like in today's society you have I don't know a lot of guys are kind of like, you know giving up on marriage and commitment and then of course you have a large Then number of women whose biological clock is ticking. They're over 30 They have and then it seems like in today's society Then the psychopath and the narcissist has a very happy hunting ground for potential victims No, absolutely. The dating scene is flooded with the flooded with them. The dating scene online and offline is a negative filter it filters out the more balanced healthy individuals these usually find the mate via Third parties via word of mouth via recommendations. They They are well integrated into the social fabric. They have their own social networks and through these They find the appropriate mate Narcissists and psychopaths are hunters. They are predators and so The the dating scene is a filter through which only or mostly narcissists and psychopaths You know emerge and you are absolutely right Okay, now I have heard I have heard a lot of people who've been in relationships with Psychopaths and at least psychopaths. I don't know about narcissists, but I've read where a lot of them They feel that the experience itself when they were in the relationship. The sex was fantastic They may have lived a repressed lifestyle and all of a sudden this person is showing them an entirely new world Getting them to go beyond their preset boundaries And so in the relationship itself, it's it's something that a lot of people get a real adrenaline Push from do you find that to be the case? I Find that there is a class of human being class of persons women and men, especially women who are attracted to To spouses or to mates or to intimate partners As a form of an adventure They the they regard their life as kind of black and white movie and here is this guy injecting it with the with Technicolor and with the excitement and with an adrenaline rush repeated adrenaline rushes and with the unexpected and With a final zone and they so this propensity to gravitate Towards the risky towards the slightly frightening towards the exciting Is there but again, it's a filter a small minority of people are like that and Had they not paired up with the narcissists and the psychopath They would have ended up racing cars or climbing mountains or providing aid to ebola patients or what have you? this is the need the need to Constantly experience life on the edge and the narcissists and psychopath is a short cut Dating the narcissists and living with the psychopath pairing up with them teaming up Establishing a couple with them is a short cut towards achieving this The the constant doses of adrenaline that these junkies need their adrenaline junkies So yes, if you talk to these people they would say that the relationship with the psychopath and the narcissists Has been harrowing that they have been abused and so on so forth But it was a very fascinating Interesting period and now they feel dead inside because nothing is happening now. They're dating a stable healthy guy and It it's boring. It's boring. It's black and white. It's predictable and They're dying they feel like they're dying slowly incrementally, but it's it's death Creeping up on them and they go out then they they break up the relationship and they go up go out seeking The next dose seeking the pusher Known as narcissists or psychopath, but these are highly specific people as I just told you These some of them date narcissists and psychopaths other others climb mountains or race cars and others end up being drug addicts So it's a highly specific profile. I would not generalize Uh Can a narcissist or a psychopath actually be a good marriage partner though? I mean in some cases depending on if they're raised in a very committed family situation Can they in turn? Be committed to their partner Absolutely In one of the chapters of my book malignant self-love narcissism revisited I discuss the phenomenon of stable narcissists most narcissists actually have an island of stability in their lives and So there is this island of stability Surrounded by an ocean of instability So for example, some narcissists are committed To a career path Within a specific company or corporation So they climb the corporate led the very patiently they invest in their work. They're they're Alcoholics actually they and you know 30 years later. They are the chief executive officers of the company They started working in the company when they were 19 at the age of 50. They are the chief executive officers So this is an example of stability There they have an island of stability, which is their workplace Politicians are the same they start at an early age and 30 years later. They are senators and governors and presidents and this requires commitment investment long-term planning and stability of character and of performance and So all narcissism or the vast majority of narcissists have an island of stability now the island of stability could well be the family a Narcissist could be very committed to his intimate partner and to his children throughout Decades long relationship. He can have a very stable marriage never divorce never cheat be dedicated father and loving or Simulated loving husband and so on so forth and this could go on for 30 or 40 or 50 years But then the same narcissists will be unstable In all other areas of his life So he would change jobs very frequently. He would embark on hair-brain skins He would lose his money would go bankrupt 10 times He would relocate and dislocate and move from city to city from town to town from state to state and so on so forth So the island of stability is usually compensated for by instability in all other areas of life You could the narcissists could be stable in his family life and totally unstable in his work working life or he can be stable in his working life and Get married divorced and remarried seven times so Yes, the answer to your question is yes, but it highly depends on where the narcissist establishes his island of stability Mm-hmm. Okay. Now this sounds controversial, but can can a person spot narcissism and psychopathic in my children No, absolutely not To start with narcissism healthy narcissism is The cynical known of personal growth and development between the years zero and six This Freud called its primary narcissism Narcissism is therefore very important for the establishment of a sense of self-worth the emergence of self-esteem and The acquisition of self-confidence in the formative years which are zero to six Then between the age of six and thirteen or six and twelve prior let's say until early adolescence including early adolescence Narcissism is very important as a way to individuate and separate the adolescent Learns to separate himself from his parents or from his caregivers To individuate to become an individual by way of contra-distinction And in order to do that, that's a very frightening and harrowing task You know throughout your life as a toddler then as a child You have learned to merge into fuse with your parents your parents are the most important figures in your life They are the caregivers. They are the providers without without whom you might as well be dead And I mean literally not figuratively So dependence on the parents Merging with the parents securing their love is the paramount task of The toddler and the child and then in early adolescence. There's a seismic seismic break In early adolescence the child the hitherto child should learn to disengage to detach To create a full full time It's the equivalent of an earthquake. That's why I call it a seismic break in he should learn to become his own person and To disengage from the parental influence and the parental presence To do that The adolescent needs to be narcissistic Narcissism is a very important tool in separation and Individuation in early adolescence. So it will be totally meaningless to diagnose pathological narcissism until the age of 13 14 maybe 15 because The narcissistic behaviors and traits which are very typical of adolescence very typical of toddlers and young children are actually healthy Not so with psychopathy psychopathy can be Or the precursors to be precise the precursors that the antecedents of psychopathy can be diagnosed at an early age Actually, there is a diagnosis in the diagnostic and statistical manual. It's called conduct disorder Conduct disorder is psychopathy for children Children psychopaths are diagnosed with conduct disorder and oppositional defined disorder So there are children who torture animals and find it very delectable pleasurable and funny They they despise and abhor authority. And so they are very defined to the point of destructiveness They are destructive destructive of objects of relationships They are their behavior is criminalized and antisocial They tend to hang out in gangs to commit crimes petty crimes some of them are very violent and they take out their violence on siblings and Neighbors and so on. So we have the telltale signs of psychopathy in early even in early childhood and the reason is The psychopathy is more and more considered to be a disorder of the brain Similar to depression or to schizophrenia schizophrenia paranoia These used to be thought of as mental health problems, but today we know that depression mood disorders schizophrenia paranoia and Probably psychopathy are the outcomes of biochemical imbalances in the brain and Therefore they can safely be diagnosed at an early age because brain biochemistry is almost fully determined by year 9 or 10 of life Not so with narcissism narcissism is a highly complex phenomenon Which involves? probably some biochemical Manifestations in the brain involves probably Some genetic Background this probably an array of genes which is responsible for the development of narcissism I don't doubt that and I don't doubt that it manifests in the brain in highly specific ways, but Narcissism also includes a whole Panoply of behaviors and traits that put together create such a complex construct That it cannot be reduced to any specific biochemical in the brain or to any specific gene or group of genes And this is why it's not safe. It's impossible actually to diagnose narcissistic personality disorder in anyone younger than 13 14 and I would say 15 Okay, interesting now your early mention I have to bring this up again, but I heard a couple of your interviews here one on Israeli radio He brought up something about politicians and You seem to indicate that you believe that Obama displays a lot of narcissistic traits Yes in July 2008 Before he became president of the United States He was at the time a senator He caught my eye. I was roving as is my habits on YouTube and Suddenly I saw this video of a young black politician You know gesturing and talking and so on I said my god, this guy has the body language of a narcissist, you know, who is this guy and I Started watching videos featuring Barack Obama again very important to realize that When I started studying the guy in 2006 There was not a hint that he would be the president of the United States I did not study him because he became president of the United States I published the article suggesting that he is a narcissist before he became president of the United States and and so I Gradually I ended up watching hundreds of hours of Barack Obama. He fascinated me for a variety of reasons, but I was able to discern analytically Several features which are usually typical of narcissists for instance pronoun density First person pronoun density the use of I my myself and mine in speeches I Notice that his pronoun density is very high. He uses the words I my myself mine Very frequently very often Mind you not more often than the typical politician 50 times more often then a normal person and That tells you a lot about politicians in general. Yes, and so that was a sign another sign was his body language He's Hortie, you know superior The vision thing body language that was also telltale sign then there were other issues his chaotic childhoods It's usually an excellent predictor of the emergence of personality disorders his childhood was in Undescribably indescribably unstable and chaotic, you know, he was thrown from parent to parent to grandmother to He crisscrossed cultures and societies well before the age of 10 and Diometrically diametrically opposed cultures in society. So such a chaotic dysfunctional childhood is Usually a very good predictor of mental health problems in later life, especially personality disorders And so on and so forth. I don't want to go into this whole long rigmarole But I analyzed these hundreds of hours of videos and I've reached a conclusion that he might be and I framed my initial article Very carefully. I said Barack Obama Narcissist or merely narcissistic? I I came I suggested that he might be a narcissist and that was in the first article was published in July 2008 and Created a firestorm When he became president long afterwards a year later the article was rediscovered and Created a firestorm among conservative talk show hosts and you know inevitably the Republican Party and it's been its more radical base Red states and so on so forth Okay, if If he were indeed narcissistic We see a lot of things going on right now in the world in regards to Russia That it seems that it there's not a real agenda not a real plan Is it because if he was narcissistic that perhaps he feels slighted by Putin for Like a year ago Putin was considered that on the front of the world stage and had Who served him in regards to Syria and some of these other issues? I Don't think it is either safe or recommended to apply a specific mental health pathology and to apply a mental health pathology to specific geopolitical situations because the number of considerations and the complexity of arguments which go into the formation of a policy especially in a country as bureaucratic as complex as hyperstructured as the United States The number of arguments and considerations that go into the feed feed into the decision-making machine These usually overshadow any specific pathology in the decision-maker Barack Obama Maybe the ultimate decision-maker, but he's definitely not the only decision-maker and he's definitely not even the most decisive important decision-maker The United States has a system of checks and balances Which far which goes far beyond Congress and and the executive branch and so on there are lobbies There are industries. There are you know, there's a million the most the most Amazing empire that the world had ever seen dwarfing anything that came before it so to to imply that that the policy towards Russia for instance or China or North Korea or whatever is The embodiment of Barack Obama's pathology would be a bit childish. I would say and And unsafe however What is happening between Barack Obama for instance in Congress? He is an expression of Barack Obama's personality and any pathology. He may possess his inability to collaborate his Conflictive and confrontative nature is a propensity for confrontation He's endless posturing as a victim He's putting the blame on others constantly and consistently Including for the recent defeat in the elections In the bi-elections. Yes So all these things are typical of narcissistic pathology and I have actually predicted his behavior in in in detail in Interviews that I've granted as early as 2009 That's five years ago. I've been able to predict his behavior is current behavior Five years ago, and it's not because I'm such a genius or endowed with divine powers But it's simply because the unfolding and expression of the narcissistic pathology is Immutable, it's always the same. It's very easy to predict the self-destruction the self-defeating and the other destruction that narcissistic pathologies bring in their wake So Barack Obama's relationship with Congress with his own nation with himself These things are within Barack Obama's exclusive power and where Barack Obama is the exclusive decision-maker His pathology manifests a hundred percent of the time and a hundred percent accurately So his relationship with Congress coming back full circle his relationship with Congress Could have been and has been predicted years ago He is driving the United States towards a constitutional crisis predicated not on some kind of a constitutional deep thinking or Not on some brinkmanship that has to do with his wish to reformulate or reframe the United States or none of this he is driving the United States towards a constitutional crisis because of his personality Because he has ideas of reference in other words he regards himself as the bot and the victim of unjust treatment ridicule and abuse Because he is never to blame or is never responsible for anything. Everyone else is to blame Congress is to blame his party is to blame everyone else is to blame. He is always right. He's never wrong I don't know if you notice that you can't show me a second a single mayor culpa of Barack Obama Single case where he says I have been wrong. I have done something wrong after the elections a few months ago Instead of saying, you know, I screwed up I'm the least popular president in the history of the United States and there must be a reason for that I have done things wrongly instead of that. He said he blamed Congress He said the people send us a message about the dysfunctioning of Congress. It was Congress that the people had punished not him not his party so All these things are very indicative of deep-set narcissistic pathology, and I'm sorry and frightened to say That the end is nigh and very predictable Barack Obama is going to drive the United States domestically, I Don't think you should concentrate on Russia Iraq Italy or Germany these are not the main issues the main issue is what Barack Obama is doing to the United States within the United States How he is owing to his very sick personality Dismantling the structures that the founding fathers put wisely and safely in place. How he's dismantling these Just in order to satisfy his vindictive urge for self-gratification and self-trustification This is something narcissists are incapable of controlling These are impulses that are stronger than they are the need to uphold the false self The grandiose self-image the inflated self-perception the belief that they are always right and they would sacrifice Anything to prove that including their own country nation and ultimately as You know we've seen in other case other cases of other leaders Ultimately, they would even sacrifice themselves Wow, well, that's certainly a That sounds like it could be a real roller coaster for the next two years. Hello, Mike. I can't hear. Oh It sounds like I haven't heard the last sentence. I'm afraid Huh? Okay, hear me now. I haven't heard the last sentence. Yes, I can hear you know, okay It sounds like that the United States then is in for a real roller coaster of a ride for the next two years Sure is Wow, okay. Well, you know, we're coming up to the end of our time now Where can people find more information about your books and and your website and these sorts of things? Uh before with your permission before I I respond to this last generous question I would like to quote a giant a towering giant of person of the field of personality disorders Theodore millen He wrote in his in his book personality disorders in modern life He wrote this When the egocentricity lack of empathy and sense of superiority of the narcissist Cross-fertilized with the impulsivity deceitfulness and criminal tendencies of the antisocial The result is a psychopath an individual who seeks the gratification of selfish impulses Through any means without empathy and without remorse these two sentences Summarize a universal knowledge about narcissists and psychopaths. I'm the author of malignant self-love Narcissism revisited and my website is HTTP Narcissistic hyphen abuse dot-com Backslash and that's it. You can simply search my name Google my name Sam Sam Vaknin V aka and I am or Google malignant self-love I will come up Excellent, I'll put some links there to some of your work as well when this goes up on YouTube Well, thank you kindly and don't forget to send me the YouTube file so that I can upload it to my own channel Absolutely, absolutely. Well that We're coming up to the very end here. Thank you for your time Sam and thank you for having me and happy new year to everyone Yes, stay away from narcissists Yes, and also any of that might be in my listening audience and all Anyway, thank you and take care everyone