 Hello and welcome back to the ArtSync Assembly 2023. I'm very happy that we have a lot of leading artists, but also great friends and colleagues joining us. So we're going to now go into a bigger conversation around the document. And I'll hand over directly to Hanat, who I think is with us already. Hanat, are you there? Yes, I am. Hi, a pleasure to hear from you and to see you. Thank you. So thank you for moderating this. I know you also have perspectives on the document. So I'm very happy you take over from here. Yeah, thanks. I think I'll set up the discussion at the beginning. So I'll maybe speak for a couple of minutes and later I'll be quiet because there are three more people that I'm personally more interested to hear than myself. So today we are talking about Beyond Green in the Grass and the strategies toward the Ukrainian transitional cultural reconstruction. And I'm here with Alevtina Kahidze, prominent Ukrainian artist, my big friend and an ArtSync alum. I'm also, we are also joined by Katerina Limova, co-founder of the culture and educational platform Key of Contemporary Music Days. Happy to see you and Antonov Chinnikov, artist, organizer, and let me say an inspiring leader in the contemporary dance field. And as far as I know, also an ArtSync alum, right? Yes. We also be joined in progress by Volodymyr Yermolenko, writer and philosopher. He'll jump in the middle out of nowhere. So please be prepared that he'll join us. And my name is Knotza Brodsky. I am a curator and also an actor in the field of culture, representing Mocha and Joe and the future ArtSync International fellow. Hey. So I'm going to just, just a couple of sentences, you know, we are talking about this greener grass. And when I saw this title, I immediately thought about this Van Gogh picture, you know, this patch of grass. And I just googled it to remind myself of it. And the fun fact I didn't know is that under the canvas of this painting, there was another one. And I thought that it's quite an interesting metaphor for what we are going to do here because there was a lot done by Ukrainian cultural actors and institution with the full scale invasion of Russia. However, we still need to do more and build up on that. So maybe within this document that we have. And with this discussion, discussion will offer some great perspectives on what we can do more. One final thing, Ukrainians and especially Ukrainian artists that we have here are like synonymous to the world freedom. So we want to have this discussion fluent. However, I kind of ask my bundle is to fit within the four or five minute mark per question. I think we'll go like three or four rounds. So we can hear everything and have some time for the Q&A. So, I guess, without any further ado, the first thing I want to address is, you know, Tatiana and Alena have given us this in depth look into the strategy. However, I guess we might address the purpose of it. So it's like strengthening the ties under the circumstances between the Ukrainian institution and for. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess I'm here. Sorry, that's sometimes I lose it. However, We lost the question. I'm just checking. Hey, sorry, you lost me. Can you hear me? Yeah, so Aletina, I'd like you to offer you to be the first one to offer your perspective on this document and the, you know, the purpose of it. Can you do that, please? You're muted. First of all, I just, you don't mind to just feel say one sentence how it was great the Zelenisha we had. Really, really, it was amazing that it happened. Sometimes I realize that I haven't seen the people from my sphere almost for a year. It's very important to say, and I'm so happy that we are discussing the time and also it's connected. Thank you so much. So the document I just looked. I would say that I would maybe talk so much about that many problems were very honestly told by the people which were interviewed who were interviewed. They were so much connected to education. That's how I feel. Let me explain why I think like this when interviewed people were talking about miscommunication or for instance that institution didn't install some connections with them for long term collaboration. There are some complaints or something like this. It's so much about what I mean, education, because education means also so much about social skills so much about how market structure, so much about how international institutions do work. And when I was reading this report, many times I actually noticed myself, can I tell you this, that I'm in such privileged position because I haven't had these problems, be honest. And I actually answered myself mostly because I had education abroad. And I also had many, many years of experience working with international institutions. And since I noticed this, if to talk about solutions, looking in this report, which is absolutely important paper, my answer would be more educational projects would be installed for Ukrainian artists, I would be happy in the list. So this one of my commentary will not maybe just let tell me more what I have to be more short. Yes. That's just a kickoff question. I definitely kindly ask you to further to address the issue of the education. As far as I know you have a lot of perspective on that. Here I'd maybe kindly ask Katerina reading through this document and maybe can you offer your perspective, especially on this aspect of artists working abroad, and artists saying here and regarding how important. You are muted. I was not. Sorry, I'm the best hotel in the city. However, the Wi-Fi is struggling. Can you hear me? Yes. So probably I missed the last one for the sentence, but I try to. I would like to ask you to comment on the importance of ties between Ukrainian artists abroad and Ukrainian artists in here. Why is that important? What is your perspective on that? Thank you so much. I was actually like a year ago on the previous assembly. I was a speaker and also a participant. And in our personal conversation with organizers and with participants as well, we discussed the importance of creating such a document. Actually, it was a pleasure to see these ideas realized and realizing so wonderful way. For instance, we also participate in strategic discussion with Alektyna and other participants as well. So it's really nice documents that structure it, that formalize, that implement and very easy way to understand and go through it. I believe that it's also important step, not only because it captures the thoughts of previous assembly participants, but also because, and definitely the interviews, but also because it shows this path, this movement that provide us a foundation with which we could work further. I think that it's important to definitely, it's obvious to important to establish and maintain all this connection between Ukrainians and international organization between Ukrainians within Ukraine and outside the Ukraine. And it's always has been essential. I must say that during my work experience, this question usually erased, but I think that the war actually highlighted this need, because more people now involved in this processes and we need to develop this effective strategy in this circumstances. And I actually highlight from the document three main points. It's definitely that the main point is international awareness and advocacy. So which means that we could cooperate with people with Ukrainians who are now not in Ukraine as a people who could bring our narrative for bigger audience. And it, I don't see why not we should do that. The main idea what we need to keep this connection as much as possible. The other part is actually support and developing of the support. I mean, in the in culture sector we probably all have in terms of common goals. And I think that we could be more effective if we would have the direct, direct actions. And in this case, yeah, the support of people from Ukraine and who live now in Ukraine who live now abroad, it could be, you know, the valuable position and idea. And I also may say it's probably maybe quite a pragmatic way, but we all having the common goal, we also have the same resources. And if we connect together, we would be, could easily reach such resources and experience and cherish this experience also among our these categories. And the third probably the last one is a professional development, it somehow also reflect what Alephina just had that this cooperation and this connection could also bring us the prompt education. Maybe I could be not fully agree with that because I do not really believe that we could do that very fast in case in real of higher education, but I really believe that this experience that Ukraine's who live abroad now who work in international organization and with international institution actually could bring knowledge and could share that and could share their experience as well. So I think this three points from the document that I could truly support and see very relevant in our reality right now. Thank you so much. I think I'll kindly ask you further to address them in more details within their discussion. I also see the Volodymyr has joined us, however, first of all, first, I'd like to offer Anton, the word, the interword and Anton as the organizer, you know, that's, that's how you are mentioned in this link promo. I can the offer you ask you to offer the perspective on how valuable is to build this cooperation between Ukrainian institutions, Ukrainian artists and foreign institution and artists and what is your personal experience with the start of the full international war. Thank you. I read the document with the that resonate resonated with me very much it's really very well structured and the ideas that was presented there and that was discussed and I unfortunately I, I didn't didn't and haven't been presented at the conference at the greener grass. It's really very much overlapping with my ideas and what I think about this strengthening ties idea of strengthening ties between the culture and art activities or artists in Ukraine and abroad. All of my in my field I can only take from my say from my own experience in the performing arts and especially in the dance field. That's, that's absolutely sure that the exchange between professionals and professional organizations in Ukraine there are not so many of them in the dance field, but between professionals in Ukraine and professionals in the broad that's extremely important thing that's absolutely critical thing, because this, the situation with in. The question in general performance button dance is very specific in Ukraine, it's a, I don't know, I know why but it's kind of isolated from the European context, it's very much different. Yes, and I think the most important what what's going on now and which can be can have that quite a big impact on the further development of the professional community is the professional development abroad for the choreographers who have this possibility for different reasons now and networking and education of course this is the three main points and. Yeah, let's say that in details later. Thank you it's interesting that all three of the participants have outlined you know this, like, three main streams and they all interact between your three answers and now we have Vladimir with this impromptu intervention so will them or the floor is yours, thank you for joining us. Hello colleagues. Yes, this is a very improvised improvised my participation maybe you can precise what I should talk about and what you're interested in most. Vladimir, I think it will be very valuable, you know, to you as a philosopher, we have even this written a philosopher and the writer of course and we all know your books, how do you know evaluate and what is your perspective on what's going on with the cultural field. How is it reacting to this current challenges of the full scale invasion. And what are the key steps maybe that we as a country and we as a cultural actors and institution need to take maybe working with the clear narratives for Ukraine and maybe you can offer your perspective on this issue of working with Russian artists so wherever your knowledge and experience takes us, it will be interesting for us we are just offer your perspective. Okay. So, the first thing I would like to say that is that. Now, we are this week is is the week of empty chairs in my friend international maybe you know about this and I mean when we are talking about the war, obviously, we should talk about real people. And let me just share. Can I share the screen maybe. I think we'll kindly ask Mia, if we can do that Mia, can we do that. Yes, I've just made you co host. So you should be able to adjust. Okay, great, great. No somehow is not working but anyway, so we have a map at pen Ukraine which just shows the names of the artists which are no longer with us which have been killed during the war. You can see that the, the, the names just the names of these artists is already a big, big story so we were talking about at least 70 plus artists who have been killed either on the frontline or, or in the homes as civilians. We are talking about over 60 journalists who have been killed. Again, either during performing the duties or on the, on the front line. This empty chair week. I'm now traveling across Europe we have made an event tribute to the memory of Victoria Melina Ukrainian writer in Paris and Barcelona. And it actually shows, these are very, you know, touchy events and very humane events. But at the same time, we're trying to, you know, portrait certain names of course which are more visible but we should also remember how many other people are no longer with us and I think it is important when we think about culture and very concrete names who are no longer capable of, of doing art of doing science of doing literature, and to think what we do with with these people, how we remember them. In this map which I which I cannot share unfortunately but there are some people who are whom I knew, for example, or who are our colleagues or who are the friends of our friends. And I think this is what one of the tasks we should we should think about how to continue their voices, even after they death, for example, recently published a journals. The diaries of Vladimir Vakulenko Ukrainian writer killed by the Russians near Izum in Kapitolivka. We are in close relations with with his family. And this very mystical and direct connection between Victoria Melina and Vladimir Vakulenko because Victoria wrote a preface to these diaries. And she died on the day of his birthday. But when you look at at the diaries, which were you probably know the story which he dug in the in the earth in the land near his house and then Victoria succeeded to to find it. Well, this is a very big document of Russian war crimes and Russian invasion, made by a writer who is no longer alive. I was during this empty chair week, I was posting an image by Dennis Krivy, a Ukrainian photographer who passed away, who was killed on the 11th of May, this year. And I was posting a photograph of birds that he made in his surroundings. He's he was living in my co lives my collection and that is a fantastic. A natural park with with fantastic nature. And we also are trying to you know to remind the the Ukrainian public and international public about him and about his works. So I do think that this task is very important when we talk about culture, you know, to to keep a voice to those who are no longer can can say for themselves and to continue their, their works I was so happy to see for example in the Spanish translation of Victoria's novel, which we which which has been recently published. And I know that she was she was writing a book of nonfiction, looking at woman looking at war, which is going to be published in English. And I think we need to we need to do that. Also during the empty chair week we remind about Maxim Budkevich, who is now a prominent Ukrainian human rights defender, whose location is now unknown you probably know that he he was giving 13 years of prison in so called Lohansk LNR and the recent news are very worrying because the correspondence to him is is not allowed. So he is just put the stamp correspondence not allowed and the parents cannot reach him and lawyers cannot reach him and etc. We really need to to talk about this. And despite all the helplessness that we have, but we really need to say that look, we're inside the new Gulag system we're inside the new Stalinism. And, and this is what our cultural figures are going through. I'm sure that all all colleagues all my colleagues and present here. We share this this this view. So, I think we need to raise awareness of really this genocidal element of Russian attacks against Ukrainian culture you know recently, just a few weeks ago we, we have been to her son, we have been several times to her son, and we visited both these robin museums, the art museum where about 10,000 objects of arts have been stolen by the Russians and local history museum, where, which had about 100, I think, up to 200,000 objects and when you enter it you realize that actually Russians are stealing the the Ukrainian identity because there is a whole for example in the local history museum Christ now she was a here so there is a whole concentrate devoted to to all the right and objects archaeological objects which which were there there is a whole devoted to Scythian art to Scythian gold and silver. They were robbed by the Russians there is a there is a whole devoted to the ancient Greek colonies in the in the northern Black Sea, and there is nothing nothing left. We can imagine how Russians will present all these objects as you know part of their history, not the Ukrainian history and then say but look Ukraine didn't exist doesn't have any history so these are parts of these elements and I think there is a real need to know when we talk about international cooperation to to really maintain this issue and draw attention to this issue. So the pen Ukraine visit lots of destroyed libraries, damaged libraries that is over 600 damage to destroyed libraries and you know, for me as a book writer is especially painful to see just just these places which used to be libraries and which now have these books and sometimes just ashes instead of the books or books just covered by by stones after destruction. We also know the stories how Russians when the when the when they're long when when there is a long time of their occupation how they confiscate Ukrainian books and say this is extremist books and nationalist or Nazi books and and proceed to their destruction. Recently, you've seen in the news, a library in here so on the regional library of less one char, which we visited in December which was already damaged severely damaged by the Russians. It's now completely destroyed. It's a library on the on the bank of the Dnieper River itself in a dangerous place Russians are on the other side of the river but now it's just, you know, burned down, and one of the biggest library in these regions. We also can talk about, well, I've talked a little bit about museums but you all know that there are so many other stories and museum in Ivankiv and museum in score score and score the new coach we also visited so this is the debate the bad side the tragic side of the story is just, you know, some elements of course not not everything. Maybe to the brighter side for a moment just with this rainy weather, maybe we can focus on just just to offer what we can do more and what are the good things we can have here. Yeah, so the the good side. Well, I'm feeling you know like, like a character of Monty Python always good to the bright side of life, you know what I mean I hope. So, I do think as I represent the the community of writers of people who are dealing with words. I do think that we have an incredible revival of of literature now, which I think has passed through a very hard and difficult period of silence in the first days in the first months of the invasion. And lots of my my friends writers, philosophers were saying look I cannot write anymore I cannot write anything, but then it appears that somehow the silence I think was either overcome or or kind of a communicated with I don't know in which way. And I do think that we have a great poetry right now in Ukraine. I many many contemporary poets are really doing a fantastic job and really writing an incredible poetry. And I do think what is happening of this quite often we see the anthologies of the Ukrainian poetry published in different languages. I do think it's a good thing because when for example, you lack translators, and you lack a capacity to translate some big things. Probably it's a good idea to start with anthology of poetry, which is at some moment at some points are more difficult to translate and some other points, depending on the verse, are less difficult to translate. And we see, for example, that there was a recent publication of Vasiliy Sturz poetry made by George Neva, George Neva is a well known Slavicist from Geneva, but he spent the majority of his time in translating Russian literature. And now with these people. It's important to work, you know, to, to encourage them to learn Ukrainian to work with the Ukrainian literature. And this is what they're gradually doing. I think this is, this is an important process. So he translated several hundreds of poems of Stus and it's published in Duhiliter in Kiev, but it will also be published, I think in in in Paris in Flamarion, or if I'm not mistaken. We recently met people from Galimar, which is a famous French publishing house, and we saw real will to publish more of the Ukrainian literature. So the or Ukrainian history or Ukrainian intellectuals. And I think we really need to work with them, you know, to make it sustainable. So I do think that in literature, of course we have fiction but I think poetry and nonfiction are very important genres and we have several very, very strong books of nonfiction which are, I hope will also be visible in in the international market. So what we need to do we need really to make us like make sustainable connection between Ukrainian literature and and and the global global literature and publishing market through agents for example there are not so many Ukrainian writers will have agents not so many agents who are interested in in the Ukrainian literature so I do think we need to work very systematically with them. Thank you so much. Yeah, I think we'll just we have we're like have some time frame so I think we'll have to move on but I maybe would like to follow this speech of yours with one thought that I have read in your interview that I've liked this that this is the war between the part, the Ukraine which has the value of human life as a center and Russia that does not value the human life and the system which values the human lives and does not sacrifice them will definitely will win and set up the rules. So, within this framework of setting up the rules I'd ask Catherine. There's one good thesis I like from this from this document regarding the influence of expanding opportunities for networking, establishing partnerships and the increasing amount of cultural actors representing Ukraine at the international level. Can you elaborate on that. Do you work with a lot of artists who currently represent Ukraine at the international level and maybe you can expand on that or take any other point from this document and maybe briefly widen it up. Well, I'll try. So, yeah, actually, I think I could consider myself actually a person, not only staying Ukraine but also with a high level of mobility and organizing contemporary music festival in Lithuania and actually do in a room of that I cooperate a lot with Ukrainian musician as well not only international musician but also definitely with Ukrainians and I have to have this opportunity to present Ukrainian contemporary music in the international field because to be honest when I came at the first time to Lithuania I had a short meeting with director of national radio station and he said we organized a charity concert immediately when the invasion started and he said so what composers you involve in this concert he said gas and actually I guess in like this because unfortunately at the beginning of the invasion they do not have a lot of options to find whom to invite so it was like, you know, the names that are well known and not actually really contemporary. So, after that we organized several radio programs with and record contemporary music composers for in this case so I mean it's in for networking. I think that the main point of networking is collaboration actually and finds opportunity for joint project where it would be possible to reveal all aspects of Ukrainian culture in different fields and try to do that step by step. And I also see this important editing in this document that we need to think in a long way because it's really probably not possible to keep this level of interest every time but what we could do we could elaborate and collaborate in different project and to see how to make this project. stable and to develop this relations let's say that really relations with international organization in this case we could actually achieve our goal with not only showcase Ukrainian culture but also to integrate it on their programs on their curriculum etc. That's actually a great point and you know, we had a discussion with Alifthina one time regarding this you know how you transfer a single project into the program and and I've asked her how did you do that and Alifthina's answer what that you know you have the soft skills so you not only come do something and come back you maybe talk you and engage yourself in the field. And that brings us to the other issue directly stated in this documents is the lack of education and maybe not only professional education which is clearly a need, but also the broader education for actors in cultural field. Alifthina, can you kindly address on that. Yes, and I just will maybe make more details what I did mean before about education because Katrina probably was kind of Oh my God, how it's possible we are in a war and then it's like education it's so complicated it's asked a lot of time, of course I understand but anyway to come back to the document I think it's brilliant paper to go through. When the interviewed people artists, mainly I find the studio artists do tell something and so many complaints which is absolutely beautiful. Seems like we've temporarily lost Alifthina right. In the meantime, I'd maybe while we're waiting for a little to rejoin I kindly also ask for the participants, we are open to your questions so just maybe type that down in this chat. We'll catch all of them, you can do that personally to either of speakers, or just generally and we'll shuffle it through our panelists. We've lost Alifthina Anton, maybe I'll switch to you because I also have this, you know, the attack is that I like quite much that. Yeah, we have you back. We've internet quite funny things. Actually, maybe in this paper was missing one thing. Just very short remark, until now in Ukraine, we don't have very good art state education. And mostly artists who are present. I'm talking about visual art them artists who did visit private schools or had so much about self education. This one I was talking about some education projects or platforms. It's really intensive course which was so skill in Ukraine. One more time. Since art education in Ukraine provided by state never was formed or changed. We have got so many private amazing schools, and till now they do work and about social skills. This is again about very good education recently I actually was teaching French international young artists in Nund in France, and actually they have a department on social skills. So there is a person who can help young artists to implement their practices with many different things like accounting and all this financial thing, and also only communication level many kind of things. This is so much about education in general, and I would say that in Ukraine could be for lessons course, or sometimes two months course, and it can bring a lot, a lot of development for young artists, I would say, all Ukrainian. And I guess we've lost all of them once again. Right. So, connections within there. There's a statement connections with within a field, a form through values or research interests. What do you base your connections in the cultural field, and how do you tighten them up within your field, and how we can broaden those connections. Elefthina will briefly give a word to Anton and then revert back to you just a second. Thank you. Sorry, sorry, I didn't interrupt you that just happened. Yes, I absolutely agree that with what you just said that it's really based on the values. First of all, and and this, what did you say second and the interest. Yeah, yeah, the research interest, you know, the research interest. Yeah. So I, I don't actually feel like that we need to broaden this thing, this thing like to find another thing, and other aspects which connect people. And, but I think just that the values can be can be formulated more clear and and discussed with the people who really share the same values that's what's happened in our field. Like, you know, there's a that's not really the separation but somehow from outside it looks like there's a in in a big huge dance and choreography field. There's a few. There's a two group of people around like some conceptual thing, you know one big group is about the experiment and doing conceptual things and just being passionate about going in unknown. And there's another quite a big group of people who organized around the more, you know, like presenting something fabulous, you know, doing something amazing, like presented to the huge audiences. I'm not talking about commercial things because there's a lot of arguments about this doing commercial not commercial what is commercial what is not everybody wants to earn money. But you know, these two things they, I think they also also overlapped. I mean, the values and research field. And these two groups are quite big from one point of view and from another point of view they, the people can exist in both of them. And what. Yeah, so I don't see that we need the other thing which which when these two is quite important and quite quite relevant and they work quite good, at least in the community of contemporary dance artists. And before, thank you, Anton, before we come back to Latina I'd maybe also ask Volodymyr to comment regarding this values that can unite the cultural field and can you add something what can it be you know the research interest grades, the values. What can we offer more. You mean internationally. Both you know internationally and we have this gap, which is broadening each day between the artists that have left Ukraine are temporarily living abroad. Maybe they are losing some soil here and losing this sense of connections and those who work here. So, what can be done to mitigate this gap and maybe what other connected factors. And artists who are abroad. I mean, they cannot be disconnected from from Ukraine, right in their work in the actions. I do think this is very, as I always say that the biggest Ukrainian profession that we all share is to be citizen of Ukraine, or to be just human beings who are just, you know, chose this way of engaging. And there are very different ways of engaging and look I do think that talking to international colleagues I do think that if they're smart. They really understand that this gives a big value added. I mean, I don't mean just that the idea of engaged engaged are to engage culture when, when you know Ukrainian artists are volunteers or on the frontline or whatever. I don't agree with this but the idea that there is something more that is something that goes beyond just just the question of style or the question of expression. I do think that from my experience of talking to and communicating with famous foreign writers or researchers or philosophers. And this slack is they kind of feel themselves floating in the air, a little bit groundless. And when I see foreign writers coming to Ukraine I recently had a very good conversation with one Dutch writer who is a Yaps Holten his name and who is just bringing cars for Ukrainian military and he's a writer and he just discovered this need to get together with other writers from the Netherlands to come to Ukraine to donate to collect money for to buy cars. And I do think that the thing that they're looking for is not only empathy to Ukrainians or sympathy to our struggle but also kind of a sense and meaning something in Ukraine this struggle gives also them a little bit of more meaning of what they're doing. Because sometimes I see the art or aesthetics in other countries and which we do not come through this existential struggle and I see kind of a devaluation of senses the devaluation of meaning. Maybe because maybe because you know when you when you're seeking just art for art or it doesn't really work it's an illusion that you can do art for art or culture for culture it's always you need to say something to the society which is to give something to the society and to and to other people just other people. So coming back to the question of values. I do think that it's it's not even the question, which values because values can be different right there you can you can meet an artist that has religious values you can meet an artist that has conservative values you can meet an artist that has very leftist values etc. What is important is the belief in values. This is what really present among Ukrainian writers and intellectuals and artists. Sometimes it is lacking in other parts of the world, which, which do not go through this existential struggle, and therefore we had in the past decades kind of a this expansion of cynicism. And the cynical reason that says the slaughtered I would say, and I do think that our struggle is also the struggle against the cynicism, and maybe just return of the of the true things. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you on that. While we have, you know, this discussion based on the research we're also in the framework of solutions. So I guess yeah I'll have to come back to your point because I actually really do value it a lot and it's maybe the store the solution education. I'd like you to expand on that. And actually, I was listening to you Vladimir and you just told that it's you don't notice so much disconnection between people you do actually communicate but in this research. Maybe it's actually generation matter. The Ryan artists who really couldn't manage the things going to Ukraine and back. Maybe it's again that for them it was more difficult and they also couldn't manage with having so many resources between between two countries, or between Ukraine and someone else. So and they do complain, really, and I just went through this paper and I also found out it's so much not about me, because I don't feel this disconnecting moments but they do answer like this. And yes, I think it could be educational platforms where the artists who are actually in Ukraine decided to be over here, and who decided to be brought here not decided but sometimes first and everyone has different condition, and really like situation, which could be better for them and everyone can decide for themselves. And that's, yes, I think it could be platform where I'm not really education maybe to share experiences. Maybe now we found out more better word share experiences. Since I'm really dealing with this fall from 2014 I remember that for me was so much important to have a connection with my mom who was living in an occupied territory. And I always said to myself, I have to talk to her because if we meet when the boys over how we can talk. And this is the metaphor for the artists who stay in Ukraine and artists who left Ukraine. Of course they have very hard life abroad, and it's still, I think we boss and mainly the people who left Ukraine have to find energy and resources to really try to find the way to share the experiences. And if now we talk to institutions abroad, I would recommend if they to produce projects, mix artists from different situation I would say and of course there is sort of categories I do belong to this category. I do travel like two weeks I'm in Ukraine, two weeks I'm abroad. But of course sometimes it's really so hard to put the things together and it's all the time you're in this situation being a bit kind of poisoned by a free of peaceful lie and then you go to Ukraine and something else. And I actually find a lot of experiences and also inspiration in it, because all the time to see both context, I would say, but in this paper, it's so much about that sometimes institutions abroad actually can't understand this type of context. And me as an artist sometimes try to explain in different workshops or performances or in drawings even to explain the differences of context. Now I understand that the most important thing that for the communication with institutions abroad, it's really like so much about context which is pretty specific in Ukraine and pretty, pretty original in the sense that sometimes they do read a lot of newspapers, see podcasts, try to follow through the journalists, but they can't understand very simple things. For instance, the questions people ask me, do I pay tax? Do restaurants work? This kind of things. And it is so much important because if they do know more they can actually communicate with artists from Ukraine who left or still do stay in Ukraine. I can't say better quality. I think it's just really like would become active listening and become kind of adult collaboration when we both can learn from each other, what I mean, because Ukrainians became very, very sustainable. Sometimes when I see some people who have a power bank which is not charged, I'm laughing because Ukrainians can really help with all the skills also not only institutions abroad can give us something. I'm really talking about sharing and it's so much about active listening when the collaboration would be more about to listen each other. This would be my actually overview on people and the last chapter in this paper solutions. Yeah, yeah. That's actually a great point. And following up on listening. I've listened to your one of your interviews in the podcast while preparing the discussion. And this also follows up on what I've been I have mentioned, where you have been asked about the sustainability of musical life in Lithuania. And you know how this, the composer, composers, how is this called this institution Spilka Compository, I'm sorry, sorry, I'll take that in Ukraine. Composer Union. Yeah, Composer Union. Thank you for that. And we also see in this document that there is this need for sustainable institutional development. Maybe you can refer to your experience and share how it's done in Lithuania and what can we do more and what can European institutions do also to support this cooperation more. The frame of local cooperation, local sustainability, it's realized in several levels, and definitely it started from the school level, for instance, to develop contemporary music composer, even in music schools with the possibility to choose to be a composer and to deal with electronic music, for instance. And then based on the Composer Union actually is institutions that try to to collect as an umbrella that they're all smaller institution or institution from different levels, as I said, from music schools to music academy and also collect this context with international institution at first in Baltic countries that Baltic and Nordic countries and all international countries as well. So I like this idea how it works, like as I said, as an umbrella, and how we try to cover the different levels of different target audience that could be relevant for them. In case with other cooperation, for instance, it's their first cooperation with international creator, and definitely the first with Ukrainian ones. But still, I like the idea that they, at the start, they work, they decided to work not for one time and launching the cooperation for three years minimum to develop this in different stages. And even if they have the event only once a year, they try also to see how to collaborate in different levels during this event. So it's also about sustainability. And I could also add my own experience, for instance, with when I launched the festival at the first time, we had, it was really difficult because it's new country for me and new context. But at the first place, I organize a panel discussion. And for the first festival we discuss our common values, common ideas and where we could collaborate. On the second festival, we already have master classes and workshops together with Lithuanian and Ukrainian representatives and also join concerts. And on the third festival that will be next year, we actually apply for the big international grant opportunity. So to organize a bigger event that we even did that before. So it's usually it's take time and it's step by step process, but it's really worth it. Thanks. You know that actually, if you might have mentioned the point that you have stated they address a lot of the solution part that we have in this document so that's quite interesting. I think Volodymyr has left us because he has to run for his other event and we thank him for his contribution. I'd also like to remind the listeners, once again, to ask your question in the chat box alongside the screen. And after Anton, please be, please know that I've also read some of your interviews while preparing, but I also found like the old ones. There's a good point also corresponding to this strategy document. It's an interview from 2017 when you where you say that a lot of choreographers, they know little to zero regarding the modern art and the contemporary dance. But there is a clear need for them to develop and orient on this international relations and be in the broad to know the broader perspective of the modern art field. And I think this is one of the like pending issues what we also have to develop further our relationships and the document addresses that can you maybe expand on that I think your perspective will be very valuable. Yeah, yes. That's still, that's still the same thing that the same I think now that the specific of contemporary dance, especially in Ukraine is that it doesn't have mostly doesn't have any connection to another art form so it's not integrated in the kind of cultural contemporary art field, let's say, just let's say last few years which is very strange, like last maybe five years the Ukrainian choreographers started working with composers, which is very strange. Yeah, because, yeah, that's much easier to take the music which already has been made years ago or found it somewhere in the internet and didn't ask anybody just use it. Absolutely another thing to find somebody to talk with a composer to write the things because that but it also needs to have this specific ability and knowledge about having conversation with the people from another art field to find the, you know, the translation between the art forms how to translate what you want to do and how how you can collaborate. And that's not only about music that's about everything but visual art connected with dance I don't know with video art with digital me, whatever. And that's also clear that this problem starts from the education, because, and this education problem starts from the Soviet Union education where, when people were learning dance in the universities wherever. When people were learning how to dance, how to make movements, or how to create movements, you take in music and then you, you develop some choreographic languages but that is, this is very, you know, literally a way how to translate your ideas into language, mostly like in the Bali but contemporary art and contemporary dance in general works absolutely in the world, let's say Europe in the US works with absolutely different ideas, much more abstract much more. Whatever. And then, again, coming back to education and to professional development. I think many, many of the choreographers who kind of well known in Ukraine and well developed and kind of educated when they go abroad that apparently appears that they are not at all in the same level with the European I mean that the way of thinking about the way of developing ideas the way of thinking about the piece about the topic, and the way of the research is absolutely different. That this this what that's why I think, and this is also the role of our institution what we do now and what we, we do our best to keep this connection with the choreographers who now working and studying and practicing whatever doing abroad. Working with different institutions, different organizations at the beginning of the war when many of them left Ukraine, our role was more to help them to find these connections, because we as an organizational member of many European networks so for us it was easy when when we knew that okay you are there in this country in this city so you can go there and then find maybe some support. We started from this and now we had another stage of this thing like trying to get the feedback from these people what they learned what they saw what they practiced what they participated in what how the how the perspective changed, and they changed a lot. I already saw people who I think they mostly decided to stop working in choreography and dance and do something else, because they understood that what they did before that's something different that's they that they experienced that they had, they couldn't use it in the new environment. And, or if they want to use it in this new environment European environment, they need to re re educate themselves. And this steps takes a lot of energy and work and not everybody, especially when you kind of middle age choreographer and when we say about choreography like 30 years old is already middle aged choreographer, because when you 4045 you already finished. When you middle aged, it's already difficult to re re educate yourself for young girls is easier. Thank you. Yes, yes, yes, and it also, I was not asking this but there's also one point from the document I remember is this. The solution that is proposed is to develop a lot of platformers for Ukrainian and foreign artists and mainly artists in a field of contemporary dance to you know, to bring up this cooperation to intensify the knowledge exchange and thought exchange and I think that's what you're also speaking about that we need more of this platform's tools and so on. And the first and the most important, when you do it, you need to find this language, the common language when people from the different contexts, different environments can find the way how they can talk and how they can collaborate and create something together. And this is much more different than to develop any platform. I can develop platforms every month, you know, but who will come there and what they will be doing. What is the substance? I'll read an extract from the document just one sentence. A common goal and a territory for consensus between Ukraine's cultural institutions and actors is the impossibility of interaction with Russian cultural agents. I know a lot about your work and your research that you have also done, I think with Alena Karvai, and I would like you to expand on that and address this topic. Yeah, so in one chapter, it's actually, as you said in the end, there is this topic, and maybe some international institution would think it's not important, but it's so much important, because after a year, after the whole scale invasion of Russia to Ukraine took place, Alena Karvai and I, we decided to look what is happening in the moment, because in the first days of the whole scale invasion, some artists, many from different sphere, they reacted exactly the same. And they said, no, we can't be with actually a Russian artist on the round table in the same program in the same project and same exhibition, whatever. And actually, after a year, we created questionaries with many questions like 20. One of the question was, of course, about, have you had the citation when you were invited to be with Russian artists, and actually 84% answers were yes. And then the next question was, what did you do? And I would say only 3% of all artists said that we didn't do anything. So basically, most of the Ukrainian artists try to do something with this. They try really to negotiate with organizers, mostly the international institutions, and the result is not they expected. Most of their attempts are failed. I would say like, we actually found out that actually only like 15% of all people who actually took part in our questionnaire answer that they could do something, the more of the people tried and couldn't and they stepped out. And the result of our questionnaire is such a set. And it's interesting that most of the Ukrainian artists stepped out from the projects where Russians were present. Secondly, some of Ukrainian artists who noticed open calls where it also could be possible that Russians would be there. They even didn't apply. One of the questions we asked it was about that, do you aware of what you lose? And they do aware. Most of the answers, they answered that we lost networking, professional connections. Second, of course, money sought opportunity to produce their statements related to Ukraine and also their careers. And the question why you couldn't be with Russian artists, the answer is emotional condition. Second, also ethic, they said that it's unfair, they explained in many ways. And after a year and a half, we understood that cancel Russian culture didn't happen. And we basically received that unfortunately Ukrainians are losing the opportunities to be present on international art sphere. And one more question we also put, when you try to communicate with your organizers about this question, what the dynamic or what their attitude you noticed and some actually answers where that organizers became even cold. They didn't understand Ukrainian artists. I would say that basically, it's our internal problem, and also external problem as well. And again, about solutions, maybe I'm too fast, sorry, not really to talk about the paper but to talking about the solutions. To my opinion, that there are two aspects. First of all, in Europe and also in US, I would say our partners, which is really partners, they don't understand where is actually the danger. Really, they don't, I would say they don't understand language they don't understand the narrative they don't understand what kind of works all these Russian artists could be involved. For instance, I have example that one individual artist which could for instance apply for the funds from the Ministry of the Netherlands. I mean, on culture, and for instance he took part in the Wagner Center. For instance, this the actually one of the point. And of course, the Ministry of Culture in the Netherlands couldn't recognize what is the Wagner Center. He probably did it in Russian only not in English. And second also, not so much clearness about that the problem with our Russian-Ukrainian war is not only about one man who is Putin, it's so much about the imperialistic war. And the imperialistic mindset and opinion so much basically implemented in literature and art even, and in culture. And since there were not so many researchers or good researchers, I mean very like Everton or something like this, who could really point where and why culture of Russia is really connected to the situation of our everyday life now and to this war. And there is this gap which unfortunately Ukrainians or Ukrainian artists, me personally, tried to really like to fix this gap, but it's a lot of work. For instance, I remember my performance where I explained what is the problem with Chekhov, it was my performance. It was in L's, you know, I draw a lot of drawings where explain what's the problem, but it's like this job has to be done when actually all the empires were falling apart, but Russia didn't. It's already like from 60s I would say or 70s. So, and to conclude, not to be so long, I would say, unfortunately, Ukrainian artists when they see Russian participants or Russian people, even in a staff, they step out. And before we talked so much about how to make Ukrainian artists to be more educated to have more social skills to implement their practice and their projects. But we haven't discussed this point, if there would be Russians over there, most of the Ukrainian artists would be not working in this project, unfortunately. Thank you. And I'd maybe even encourage our listeners to, I think they can find this research you have done, or maybe you'll just publish it on your Facebook page so that they can take a look into it, because it's really interesting and valuable material, at least maybe some results that can be for public. You know, the strategy they said the strategy is a dynamic document, and I actually think this strategy is quite dynamic so maybe let's keep this discussion also dynamic. We have a lot of Q&A questions, and I would propose this format of two minute answers kind of blitz one. If I interrupt you, I'm not rude, I'm just well organized kidding. So the first question is, it's actually from Simon, and the question is, what I will repeat if you have a need for that, and the question is, what might be the impact on the next generation of artists of having their heroes or leaders based outside of the country, and how to address this issue. So basically what, how will it impact this generation of artists, and how to address this, Katarina. I just give me two minutes to think about. I just give me two minutes to think about it. Anton, can you go with that. I would say it's a hard question that for many years it was, we've been living in a situation when people who came from abroad was mostly leaders, you know, like if you go from there, and if you have this European or whatever else education that means that there's something like a quality and you bring something really much more important than that we have here. But I don't know what will happen next in our situation when the war will be finished. It will very much depend in which situation we will find ourselves after it will be finished. Who will be the, who will be the leaders in the, I don't know, are they still be living and working in Ukraine or they will be traveling back and forth or I think we going toward the more, more, you know, traveling and multi, how to say multi cultural understanding of the leadership, so people who travel more and who see more and maybe even if they based abroad, they of course they could be the leaders. If the local Ukrainian communities would trust them. I think what the issue is, you know, that's what Alephina said, that's regarding leaders from Ukraine. For example, Alephina is here in Ukraine, she's physical and everyone can touch her and ask her these questions like stupid questions, how do you do that, how do you do that. So, but with, with like some Ukrainian artists living. I think the question in store that Alephina what should we do with artists living and how will it influence their current leaders current artists. My answer is that actually this is the task and I believe that Ukrainian artists would do this, they do live or they stay. I think our situation, our war, also our revolution of dignity, where we really were fighting for the more freedom for the more democratic values. I know that some people from Africa don't like to hear European or Western values they don't like it. And I think Ukrainians have to be really champions or heroes of empathy. This war made me really like start to understand so many small communities nations I think we have to really like be really people who suffered from this war we have such a big country, I would say 42 millions the biggest country in Europe bigger than friends. We received this war, and we have such a rich culture, which was not known. Unfortunately, we have really like amazing heritage, which is not known. And I think, from one hand, we never were in the center. We have a lot of talk. We really like went through such a hard transformation we are so actually skilled to do revolutions to be mobilized. If to look what happened two years ago. Like even Babushka salt ladies could really like fight these drones and like artists produce posters many things and went to front line. I think we, or any Ukrainian artists as a heroes they have to unite all people over the world. I think what we do have we struggle. It's not our problem. It's the problem of whole planet in realistic story. It's part of our human civilization, unfortunately, and the capital issue as well. Sorry, yeah, thank you. Karen, you're ready. Yeah, maybe I'll just repeat so we can try to answer the question so the next generation of Ukrainian artists, not having Ukrainian art leaders in Ukraine, but having them outside. Will it influence them and how to address this issue. I definitely think that it will influence and it's difficult to predict in which way I may say that we need these heroes and leaders now to be able to survive in the situations that we have we really as you said need to understand how to do that. Because it's new situation. It's not normal situation. And when we see heroes who could deal with it. It's become easier for us. I really hope that our future generation will have heroes and leaders definitely based on common values. And maybe in this case if we choose it not geographically but values wise it would be maybe less matter where this leader is inside or outside of country and but yeah definitely it would be nice to have both. That's a good one. Thank you, Katrina. On to the round two. What should happen in Ukraine, or generally in the big whole world to bring artists, Ukrainian artists, especially the independent one together. What more do we need value impact. Can you address that and how to organize that how to bring independent are independent artists together. And if you have maybe some good cases from your experience share with that. I lift in a can you start values, I would say. I think it's so much about values. So I would say in the situation we have in Ukraine. When we have a shelling so alerts each two hours, art in Ukraine, it's only about values you never would do art for any purpose, not even for commercial things like Antonio just mentioned remember we talked of course everyone has to think how to earn that values. That's a great one. Anton. It depends what you mean how to how to unite. I mean that art it can be united, even living in different countries. Then, yes, values of course can unite them or you mean bring them all together in the same place. This is another thing. And when, and if we talk about contemporary dance field, which is quite big. Only only choreographers know how many of us are here in Ukraine. And this is very much about the working conditions, because there's such a huge gap and difference in working conditions in Ukraine and abroad and possibilities and network and possibilities and infrastructure and everything. That's all all thing that happened in contemporary dance in Ukraine. It's all made on passion and, you know, love to this thing. There's nothing from the from the state from government from whatever it's all from from the from the talk from the bottom Katrina. One more, you know this question but you also always get a tougher one. No, values. Yes, I agree the values but you know values are a core thing, but also a broader thing. So, how maybe do we share those values with the colleagues how we, you know, go into more details do we need to strategize do we need to work together what do we do to share this values. Actually, that's what I want to say. So, yeah, the common projects, the projects where they could work together on these values, etc. But as maybe a long lasting project, a sustainable project, it's also could help in this case when we work together, it means that our different experience. Actually, it's not divide us. It shows the benefits and possibility of this different experience. And in this case, I think it's much easier to define this values, develop it and continue working in the future. And a Latina with you know this model that we currently have this with the funding and commissioning does this bring artists more to, you know, be more competitive and separate and you know, put an elbow into each other's chest, or, or how do you evaluate that. Yeah, I try to be short. Once I made my own research and my art practice. I took my master pieces, which is like many people said, Oh, it's great work, great work. Some of the works I did as Anton said from love, having nothing, no even money. Some works I received financing support and also made nice work. So it's so hard to say. I think with what actually Katrina said common projects. So it's always gives so the big trees, never in the desert. It's always in a garden and then it's really goes. And I think it's like so much around that I don't say this. It's true there is this gap between Ukrainian artists and international in working condition but if you look at the Africa, or for instance to Latin America it's maybe we should also include them, then we will feel more natural situation or help to each other. I think, yes, common projects, but not only from Europe and US, but expand expand Ukrainians have to be leaders in this. Yes, thank you, often Anton, what's your take on that. I think I said already, yeah, but the, when I say the working conditions, I also mean that the conditions when people may have the abilities to work on the same project but that also means that they have the support, you know, because if there is no support nothing would happen. And also then another important thing that choreographers because they never had any support for years and years and years. They used to find the two to develop the ability of self organization to do everything with their own hands to arrange everything without anything. You know, to bring people together. And then what was always important that other people or organization or the state shouldn't. I don't know how to say the park of Colossus. Don't make, don't build fences, you know, just give people the freedom to do what they want to do. This is another important thing. But because I don't know what what will be after we will win the war. You know, right. Two more and we have to close. Katarina Anton and Elif Dina, please. One example of your productive collaboration with artists or institutions abroad and why it was productive and why it was successful Katarina we start with you. I probably already mentioned during this discussion so definitely Lithuanian composer union. I was invited as an artistic director for the oldest experimental and contemporary music festival. It gave the possibility to bring many Ukrainian performers to the festival, not just to showcase them and showcase our music but also actually to make the collaboration with Ukrainian Lithuanian musician and composers and with other international composers. So I definitely think it's the most successful for now and since it last for third festival so probably I could consider it. What was the secret to the success? What was the secret? I don't know. Probably I really love what I do. It's actually for everyone and just to love the Lithuania and it's, sorry, it's more... The partnership approach. But in the partnership approach, I think try to do your best. Definitely. If something goes wrong, just pick up and try to communicate. It's usually happening in the big project but you need to be very clear in your communication. Establish long distance relationship. I mean sustainable. And in this I mean to write a memorandum. Do something that it will be not only just saying the words. Organize a feedback system and then do something with this feedback system. It also helps. Yeah, and definitely collaborate with... Yeah, collaborate. Sorry. Thank you. Alevtina, I think you had tens and thousands of good one and also having hundreds of bad one. So what distinguishes them and what is a secret to good collaboration? Can you briefly focus on that? Recently I actually was a leader of play with the people with Lincolnstein or from Lincolnstein. So it was interesting that I could organize all of them to read my play. And I understood that I really tried to help them to impress themselves. They are not so used to this. And the people who were between the calibration, one woman was a former worker in Hilti, which produced actually the building devices. I was so happy to actually work with this type of people. And you know what she said, when the voice over, I will come to rebuild your country. That's an inspiring story. And actually recently I also did teaching in Sandnazar school in Nantes. I was so pleased. So many students were so thankful to me. I even didn't know that I could bring a lot of experiences, knowledges and voices. I was absolutely in new situation to be very welcome by this institution and by the people. Thank you for that. Anton, what was your most successful collaboration maybe with the institution and what was the recipe for success? On the institutional level, it's the collaboration with Lithuanian Dance Information Center and Lithuanian Festival New Baltic Dance, which is our partner since 2014. And since then we've been collaborating every year. And last year, first time, I think first time in history of the Ukrainian contemporary dance, we organized Ukrainian contemporary dance platform in Vilnius in the frame of the New Baltic Dance Festival, where we brought six Ukrainian performances just created after the beginning of the invasion and presented them. There were a lot of communications and discussions and panels and a lot of presenters from all the Europe. So this was a very high point of our collaborations. And on my personal level, which is kind of strange but interesting, that's the most interesting collaborations with me as an artist was with my friends and colleagues in the US. And what was, why was the most successful? What was the approach from your colleagues? I don't know, you know, maybe this is a kind of very, very honest interest to what is really Ukrainian, I don't know, soul Ukrainian context, everything. Yes. And I think because that context is absolutely different, but this empathy and this wish to understand, to try something different was very clear always. And for me, it's always the very, very much, very important point to have the real interest to understand, to feel another person or another institution. Then we can create something together. Thank you. I think we have three minutes left. So maybe let's just dive into the closing remarks. And I would ask each of you to highlight maybe one point from the document that you have separated for yourself or maybe the issue that was raised there. And give us all, after, with that give us one advice how to build cultural relations and one advice how to fight this bad weather and autumn depression. Let's do that. Let's do that. The highlight from the document. It's more important than the depression point. Okay, sure. So the main highlight from the document. Let's say this collaboration project and sharing the experience and use the international experience like educational actually sources. It doesn't matter who is an international experience from Ukrainians who is abroad or from international organization just, you know, find the source. And it's, I think it's really relevant. What is the next question? The depression point. The autumn depression. Oh, the depression. Okay. I don't know. Have more of this communication and networking. I think it's really help and specially help in offline but still online. I think it's really relevant. Thank you. Anton, up to you. All the best project which happened in my life, the collaboration project was always based on the relationships between human, not between the organizations. Like this is, that's something kind of love should happen. That's always started from you met somebody, you felt like, oh, this is the right person you want to be a friend with. And then you become a friend and then from this point, you started development something as an on the level of the institution. It's never happened and another order, you know, like from institutional to human in my life. Okay. So being human and understand yourself as a human and trying to understand another person as a human is the critical point for me. And in terms of the, in terms of the autumn depression for me is always the same answer. Just move. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if it dance or not dance, but you should move as soon as you have power and energy to walk to run to, I don't know, make something with your hands. You can get your depression away. Thank you, Anton. Christina, the point from the strategy and the point on autumn, autumn, but mood. He actually opened the paper and actually in the paper what I really like found very interesting. So it was description about ingredients. I'm an artist and it was used this word pitch work that all artists in Ukraine are so different. So you can say that it's monolith. They're all the same. And I like it. I think I would say as a advice, don't stereotype Ukrainians. If you meet one Ukrainian who is like Anton said like doing very kind of not contemporary dance, but there would be the other one classical dancing or something like this. We are very, very diverse and different, different experiences. And I think it's good part of Ukrainians. We are not actually alike and we like that we are different. And I think it's part of the, I would say, in the stable system. And the depression. Say again. And the depression. What do we do with the depression? Depression. I don't understand what is depression. How to irony. Yeah, irony. Yeah, irony. That works. Yes, more humor. More humor. Oh, humor. Better to do humoristic things about even yourself. And then you never evict him when you can have a distance which is irony gives or make your own human about yourself. You're never a victim because it's always needs a distance. And while I also give my favorite point from the strategy, it's to stimulate fellowship and scholarships. And my another observations is that the points of the speaker. Have mentioned regarding fighting the depression. I actually also a good tool to stimulate the cultural development in Ukraine and build the most sustainable strategy. I'd thank the panelists. I'd also thank the team of the status and the Ukrainian Institute for developing the strategy. That's an amazing document. I encourage everyone to find it on the website every once again. Thank you, Anton. Thank you, Olivtina. Thank you, Katarina for smiling and thank you, Simon and the whole Arsling community. And on to you, Simon. Thank you for that. No, I just wanted to thank you for being this doctor of this very complex orchestra of extraordinary artists. So yeah, Anton, I live Tina, Katarina. Thank you so much for sharing both your thinking but also this extraordinary expertise you've evolved over many years. And thank you for keeping us all not only in order but as focused as we can be in such a context. And thank you for enduring the outages of Wi-Fi and all the problems of trying to have this kind of conversation online. So for me it's clear we all need to be in Lviv next year. We will see you all in person. I believe no. So we'll be at the jam factory. We have to make it happen. It's a dream, but I hope to see you all there. Thank you everyone who's been watching online. As Hanat said, the document is available both in Ukrainian and English. It's short but very focused so please read it and we'd be very happy to get your comments, your thoughts from your sense of the document. And we'll be working on it both with our artist colleagues, with our alums and with the cultural community in Ukraine. We look forward to lots more work to come and to see you all soon. Hanat, thank you. Thank you all for joining us. Thanks to everyone. Have a nice day. Have a nice evening. You too. Thank you. Thank you guys. Thank you so much. Thank you, Sam.