 Good afternoon. That's going to start soon, I hope. So let's start. Good afternoon. My name is Nuria Ricard. It's a pleasure for me to present the workshop, social participation and memory exchange of best practices. Its aim is to share different kinds of expertise about the involvement of civil society memory processes, institutions and policies in Europe. To achieve this goal, we have three presentations. The first by Ari Beobide and Maria Laura Mariskalki. Ari Beobide, she's a historian. She teaches at the University of Mondragon and the University of the Basque Country. She had actively participated in the organization of the Euro Clio International Training Seminar held in San Sebastian in 2013 and in the training event of Historiana in Madrid in 2014. Nowadays she's involved in the creation of the Historiana Units Alliance Citizens Through Censorship. And the preparation on the Euro Clio annual conference that will be held in Donostia, San Sebastian. And Maria Laura Mariskalki, she's graduated in Philosophy since 2010. She teaches at the Lisio Atasoni Modena. From the 90s she had been involved in history education experiences connected with the network of the institutes for the history of resistance and contemporary society. Being especially interested in heritage education, history and memory. Over the last decade she has been collaborating with the Villa Emma Foundation, to rescue Jewish children located in Nonantola near Modena, where she's right now involved in planning a memorial. As Ari Beobide, she's part of Euro Clio and they are both going to talk us about this project. So please. Okay. Well, good afternoon to everybody that is still here. My voice is not very well, but I tried to make me understand. This is the name of the project that we have enhanced. It says Silence and Citizens For Censorship. And we are trying to do some kind of sources bank and also learning activities related to censorship during the totalitarian regimes. But before I would like to explain a little bit what Euro Clio is. Euro Clio is an NGO that gathers history teachers of Europe and also around Europe. And that's different projects in order to develop and prepare innovative methodological tools. And also to create networking and development of different press national groups that can spread different programs or sources. The Euro Clio wants main idea would be to have sources that can be used in education, especially in secondary and high school education, so that we can have a common curricula, a historical common curricula somehow, so that we can create and try to do better citizens with common ideas and try to build a peaceful, a combi-based and critical citizens in the future. Yes, the project we are introducing now to you is aimed to contribute. Yes, so the project is encompassed in the frame of Historiana. Historiana is an educational website created by Euro Clio and constantly updated. And it is aimed to offer to schools source collections and learning activities based on a multi-perspective view. So just before to speak about the institutes involved, there are some sheets spread through the floor. We kindly ask you to sign them because we have to produce some evidence of the audience present at this presentation because it's important in order to have the project founded. So there are several institutes involved coming from seven different countries. As you can see, there are Spain, France, Germany, Italy, Poland, Hungary and Macedonia involved about the former Yugoslavia past. So we are starting the project. We agreed about five key questions. We can see them all together, but I would like just to offer you an overview of the source collection we are gathering so we can briefly pass through them showing you some sources among our collections. So first question, what was censored and why? Several things were censored and we are gathering several items. And then what were the second question? What were the tools and methods to censor? So they were spread from violence and also education. Propaganda was a very important tool and also the ministry and police departments and we are gathering also sources from them. And controlling the press was a very important way to censor. And also there were some methods, we are gathering sources about the methods to avoid being censored. And these are a couple of samples. Then who was involved and affected and how? So individuals, group of people and also the censors. To go to the end, what is nowadays the legacy? We can see here some samples of that, monuments, museums and also the streets changing their names. And to finish the last question, what is the bigger picture? Because we think that we have to speak about censorship. Yes, during the totalitarian periods because it's the main issue of our project. But also we have to put it in a historical perspective and also we have to come until the more recent times. So I think that now it's time for Harry to show us the learning activities that are ongoing. Yeah, we are going just to present you one of the learning activities we are preparing. They are working progress as it says. But I think that most of them try to make students in Mamba or to know in most of the churches engage them with the topic that we are doing and debate also. It's not only our opinion, it's they have to talk about and they have to discuss about it. One of the activities that we are preparing for the learning activities is how to be a good censor. So you can imagine what we tend to do is to give students different national sources so that they can understand better how censorship worked in that period. For example, we have a timeline just to contextualize the different totalitarian regimes that are involved in the project. And then we start having two lists of institutions from different counties so that the students can analyze or can start thinking or guessing what the countries would be and also try to think what were they censoring and why. And then we also give them, of course, the answers of the counties. These are more or less the questions that they should answer. We have also, why do we have to play in the orchestra, saying how the censorship worked and it's a test of Mussolini's story talking to the journalists how to do their job in order to be okay for them. Comparing with an orchestra with musicians, it's an Italian source. Then we have a Polish source that is the Black Book. That means it's a collection of the regulations that censors did in totalitarian movements. And the students have to analyze some of them that we have chosen and decide what does that religion mean and why it should be censored. And one of the last activities is to make them to be censored. For that, we have prepared a chat that it was a real censored chat of Spain. You have the translation there. That's the chat, that the report, that all the censors have to fill in about books in order to be decided to be published or not. So we give them to test, both of them in Catalonia, in the Rastakania event. And with those tests, they have to, first of all, they didn't carefully analyze them and try to complete the report to decide if it should be something against moral, against charge, against institutions, and that's all. And then they have to look also for code messages, if there was, and they have to guess, try to guess which of those documents would be censored or not, or both would be approved or not. Just to analyze how a censor was thinking. And of course, we gave them the real answer, given the real answer of those. The last activity of this learning activity is just what does it mean for us today to ask students to think about what censorship means for them. If censors assist from their viewpoint, they have kind of discussed how they did in the whole class. Of course, all of you know that a censor assist today is not something of the past or totalitarian regimes, and we can see in this vision that he's outside there. Some books that are censored from Spain, others from the other parts of the world, and also some were quite recent for the 21st century. We are also developing, we're starting to develop some other learning activities, just giving you our titles. Would you like playing in the orchestra? That is a case study, our Italian case, which talks about Mussolini. We also have, we are going to have some source collection, like this one, how has to be a good woman, different countries, and all this source collection and all the learning activities will be upload to Storiana so that any teacher in any country can use them as they know they want it. Just to finish our presentation, there are some pictures of the woman, Italian, Spanish, French, and just a small and short advertisement to finish our presentation. As Nuria was saying, the Eurocleanest annual conference will take part in San Sebastian. Many people involved in history, memory and remembrance will be there, sharing experiences and sharing knowledge, so the registration is already open and hope to see you there. Thank you very much, Harri and Laura. Let's go to the second presentation. We are going to organize this like this. We will have the free presentation, and after we are going to open the dialogue to the audience in order to have a lot of questions or comments as you want, okay? So let's go to the second presentation by Francesco Gerlosi, his philosopher, journalist, radiojournalist and political activist as organizer of the Living Memorial Group, or the 11 M. Lecmo support as it is known in Hungary. Actually, he's going to talk to us about the role of this group in the process of civic resistance against the so-called memorial of the big teams of the Nazi occupation in Liberty Square, Budapest. Can you hear me? Okay. So have you seen this book? Yes. This book titled Past and Power, edited by Jordi Giché, my pronunciation, sorry for that. So this is a picture on the cover photo about 11 M. Lecmo or Living Memorial from Budapest. And we are in the middle of a question now because 11 M. Lecmo or Living Memorial has two meanings. Originally, there was a memorial which was not living. The official title of that monument is Memorial of the Victims of German Occupation, or Nazi Occupation maybe. And it's in the Sabachakter or Liberty Square in the center of Budapest. And even when it was just an idea of the government to erect that monument there, there came out of nothing, huge and many, many demonstrations against it because the concept of the monument is that there is a totally innocent archangel Gabriel and above Gabriel there is an aggressive eagle which represented Germany and the archangel, the innocent angel represented Hungary. And I wanted to say this monument in those times already when it was still not at its place, but it is now for more than two years. And it is that Hungary is absolutely innocent and only Germany is to blame for the Holocaust and the killing of more than half a million Hungarian citizens in Auschwitz and other concentration camps. And this specification of history and this lying, rose up people from their armchairs and ivory towers. And there were demonstrations on the Liberty Square every day. And then finally the memorial was erected in the nighttime when the least people were there. So, and even until now it's not inaugurated, not officially it's not there. And so, and I told you that the phrase Eleven Emleik Müh or Living Memorial has two meanings. A little before the erection of the original memorial, there was a huge, relatively big flash mob there where a philosopher, a rightist philosopher for my taste, I'm rather an anarchist, he's rather a rightist philosopher and he had a brilliant speech about Hungarian memory, the memory of, historical memory of my country and said that without facing what really happened in history, we won't have a future. So, and all the demonstrations, so, and then we decided, so he said this Bindak Peter, this philosopher said that ask people to bring personal belongings, photographs, stones, candles, whatever. Personal memory objects and they are put together in a line in front of the original anti-Nazi occupation, Nazi occupation memorial and this is, yes, and the objects have the name Eleven Emleik Müh or Living Memorial. This is the first sense of the phrase. The second sense is that a month later in 14 April, that was in 14 March what I said, another Eleven Emleik Müh or Living Memorial had been created. They were chairs in a round, in a circle. So this is, these are two chairs facing each other and Eleven Emleik Müh the two letters E. So they represent the dialogue, without a dialogue nothing would change. Say we, well, the pictures are absolutely random pictures from the Facebook. Sorry for that. This is a picture about connection of ours when the Eleven Emleik Müh as objects were just two years old and so Gabriel the Archangel is covered here and Hohman Balint, he was a minister of culture in the time of the Holocaust and was very active in backing, creating the so-called laws, the laws restricting the rights of Jews in 37 and 38 in Hungary. He was an anti-Semitic and he was still a member of the Hungarian parliament under the Nylos regime, the last helper of Hitler's Germany in the World War II. So, and we covered and we, it's a long story about his statue, a statue a government wanted to erect a Hohman Balint statue which is a city 60 kilometers from Budapest and even Barack Obama intervenated telling that it would not be good if such people would have sculptures, memorials in any allied country and he meant really Hohman Balint. And, you know, so there was Barack Obama and there were we. So these are people from, okay, you can see the guy in black shirt and glasses and the mother and the child, so he and her met each other on the square in the right-eleven Emelik Müh circle two activists and the youngest activist of ours. This is a very short part of the circle and on the background you can find some columns, they are part of the original Emelik Müh or memorial. This is a part of the living memorial, the object sense and on the other side a part of the original memorial and this guy who takes the chair now was a far-rightist guy and came there, sat down and we convinced about that it's not good and he's not a far-rightist any longer. This was... Sometimes we export our chairs and conversations so this is not in the Sabachak, it's another street. This is the other side of the street, of the same street. On the other side there is a museum which formerly was called Ernst Museum but now it's called Kappa Center after Robert Kappa. It's a photography museum and the way how it was created was absolutely a dictatorial mood of pushing money to friends and taking money away from not friends and such and the woman who had the exhibition had a talk with us not just about her art activity but about the situation of how new museums are being made in present Hungary. You can see me too and her is the artist. A demonstration where we took part and on the left she's the woman who was about to come here and not me but she couldn't so that's why I'm here. Someone is... is inciting a candle on the Eleven Emlik Müh in the sense number one. This is a very short talk in the Eleven Emlik Müh since number two. In every chair it's written Eleven Emlik Müh, the guy in whatever on his hat with beard is Corby Hopkins one of the founders of the Occupy Wall Street movement. He was just in Budapest a couple of days ago. Anyway, this is an Occupy movement too but we go home to sleep. Okay, so it was a random show. So it's a kind of an Occupy movement but we go home from Monday to Friday we are there. And I also wanted, I don't know how much time it was. Two minutes more? Okay, so the question is I wanted to pose why we are here on this book cover. What is so interesting in Eleven Emlik Müh? And so we demonstrate against the specification of history. We have three times a week we put chairs in a circle, invite several people from time to time, invite people to talk with artists and philosophers, politicians, students, whoever. And first we talked about making monuments but now we talk about everything which people are interested in. Participatory democracy, the condition of the Roma people in society, whatever. So it's a very small group but a lot of people know about us and everything is open and every conversation is recorded and can be listened to on the Internet. Everything is open source. Let's leave Glasnost. Well, let's go with the third presentation by Jordi Fonaguyo. He's going to speak in Spanish so I'm going to present him in Spanish to introduce him in Spanish too. He's a director, cultural manager and exhibition commissary, director of the Exilio Memorial Museum in the Catalonia Junkera which is a center integrated in the memory network of the democratic memorial. He's a technical coordinator and artistic director of the Espais Dal Contemporani Foundation. He attended it between 1991 and 2007 and at the academic level he has published numerous articles about various universities. He's going to talk about the socializing instruments of the memorial in the museum. I'll talk about it here. Well, first of all, I want to thank the organization for inviting me to this conference. And I think that after seeing the cases that have been presented so far I think it's my turn to present the initiative perhaps more institutional or more institutionalized which, in some way, was born in what the professor Rekarviñas and also Paco Ferrandi have talked about which is a result of that moment of memory that we've been experiencing in our country for about 15 years, approximately. The particularity of this initiative is that, in a good way, it emerged in a zone, we could say, peripheral, in a border zone. The area is the museum, that's what I'm going to talk about. It's located precisely in a... perhaps the one that was and that is still the most important border between France and Spain, which is the one in the Junquera del Portus and, in some way, at the end of the Civil War in Catalonia, exactly between the end of January of 1939 and the first ten days of February of 1969, because in that place a great number of people escaped from what we've talked about before the Franco dictatorship. In this case, the border pass of the Junquera del Portus was the area where more people fled from, let's say, the Franco terror. It is estimated that around 250,000 people, more or less, went through their place in ten days. That means more or less half of the almost half million people who took the way of the exit in that period that I've talked about. As I said, we have a border area, which is this area between France, between what would be the northern part of Catalonia and the southern part of France. As I said, we also have a memorable event. You can see here a photo of the pass of the Junquera del Portus in that precise moment, in February of 1939. Here we have other photographs that refer to that memorable moment and I'm talking about a memorable moment because in this area, especially in the municipality of Junquera and also in Portus, and everything that would be the area of the Eastern Pyrenees, what we call Catalonia del Nord, and also the northern part of Catalonia, it was really marked by that event. And because of this memorable event, in the Junquera, at the end of the 20th century, coinciding with this memorable moment, from the Junquera City Council, the initiative came out to take a museum around that event that in some way left a mark, we could say almost permanently, what would be the memory of the citizenship of that area. But not only the citizenship of that area, but as you can imagine, in the memory of what would be the contemporary Catalonia and also of the contemporary Spain, the Republican exile occupies a place that we could say privileged, in what would be the democratic memory, as has been mentioned before. Here, what I want to talk about very briefly is precisely what has been said before to carry out some public memory policies. We need instruments. In this case, we are in front of an instrument, quizas, it is one of those that have developed more throughout these last eight or nine years in Catalonia. The museum was founded, it was opened in 2008 after a process of creation. In some way, it also indicates or connects with those difficulties at the time of carrying out policies or public policy programs of democratic memory in our country. In summary, the museum consists of a permanent exposition which is one of the instruments, we could say, of socialization which refers to public capture, but it does not only have a permanent exposition. Here you see some fragments of this permanent exposition where it occupies a privileged place. Now I will not go into detail, but for example, all that would be art, the use of artistic works, for example, used or, let's say, placed in the middle of the museum discourse, in the middle of other museum devices of audiovisual or documentary charisma. Here we have some aspects of this permanent exposition and I will move quickly to what would be, in some way, how this permanent exposition is used, how the users of the museum benefit from this permanent exposition. As you see, for example, one of the peculiarities of the permanent exposition is a musograph designed in the form of labyrinth, in some way, it is a metaphor of that long exile from 1939 to 1975. That would be in reference to the permanent exposition. But then, the museum itself, from the beginning, from 2008, when the museum was opened, we have also worked on the concept of exile from a more open perspective, more broad, trying, above all, to approach what would be the same present, or also acting, leading to the end, a political exposition in which, above all, the comparatist issue, we could say, or, above all, talking about other realities related to exiles, forced displacement of population or political violence. In this case, I have put here a sample of temporary expositions, an exposition on Israel, Lebanon, another on Bosnia, on the absence, on the disappearance in Argentina, or a specific exposition that was carried out on the last war in Chechnya. Well, here. Then also, we have carried out an exercise, above all, of, we could say, of restitution, of artists who suffered the experience in the fields of internment in France. Catalan artists, Spaniards, who were completely unknown to the majority of the public, and we have carried out expositions of this type to recover them. I will quickly pass some of these. And then also, what is also, has been very relevant, also in this case, which connects precisely with the congress that we are carrying out here, from the Exilium Memorial Museum, we have also participated in some European projects. In this case, it is also a project that is part of the Programme Europe for Citizens, a project that is led by three Italian municipalities and that brings together different countries, different localities, different countries in which, in some way, they have also been impregnated, they have been, they have suffered, which are significant for the issue of war, because they have suffered the effects of war. And then, what we could say the objective of this presentation, one of the most important elements of the museum is the educational service of the museum, which has been configured from above a first experience before the museum was inaugurated, which was an experience of the University of Girona, emerged from the Pedagogical Faculty, from the Pedagogical Department, about the history of education, especially from the persecution of the Republican teachers and the Exilium of the Republican teachers. From here, a series of routes were articulated, which were later taken advantage of our educational service and it has been created throughout the years, apart from what would be the appropriate guide to the museum, to the permanent exhibition, they have also been articulating different workshops, workshops, workshops, focused above all for a public, let's say, school, above all, of institutes, but also a public adult in general, which can be a user of those services. And then, another of the, we could say, of the programme that for us, of our programme, of which we are most proud, above all, is, well, here we have other images, is above all because the museum is, as I said before, in a border area, with a, we could say, a long tradition of connections and at a historical level, of the commercial and above all, from the same experience of that exile, which, I suppose, is that huge transfer of population from one state to another. Well, that means that, on the other side of the border, there is also a very strong memory of what I suppose the reception, above all, of those refugees. In this case, throughout these years, we have been articulating a series of routes around that border area, which are routes that are carried out, above all, with students, but also with adults, and in some way, we have also been articulating, we could say, among quotes, a certain memory tourism, what is said in French, memory tourism. In this case, the route proposals are quite diverse, and above all, they take into account different aspects from the recovery of some secondary paths used by authorities, or representatives of the Republican governments, or of the Republican Catalonia, or even of the Basque Country, also. And we have also carried out, we have recovered significant spaces related, for example, with the internment in different fields, in France, and all this has also been possible thanks to the fact of working with the idea of the museum expanded in the territory. And that was also possible, and it has also been talked about, as a result of a design project of spaces and paths of the Republican Church, which was carried out between 2008 and 2009, from a project together with the Memorial Museum of the Exile, the Democratic Memorial Museum, and also a supra-municipal institution of the area, let's say, close to the Memorial Museum of the Exile. Well, and then, they carried out a few signs in the territory, and above all, taking into account the transfer of population from the south to the north of these Republican refugees, but also taking into account that during World War II a transfer was also produced to the reverse, especially of people who fled from Nazism during World War II. In that case, very close to the Memorial Museum of the Exile, we have the paradigmatic case for the relevance of the character of Walter Benjamin, who died, who committed suicide in Port Bo, close to where he is located. It is another border point, next to the juncture, and in some way, we also develop this work, especially from the persecution of people for their ideology, for ethnic issues, etc. This would be the map of that area with the signs. For the title, just to finish, I'm going to follow a text briefly, and in some way, it will be faster. In short, in the project that encarnes the MUME, the Memorial Museum of the Exile, I think we have to point out that we have left aside what would be the critical mentalisation, petrified, we could say, that it is often excessively dependent on a misunderstanding, patriotic, as well as that very present tendency that, in the name of entertainment, is to behave like a fall in vulgarisation, which often gets confused with the spread. And a pertinent concern when places marked by the pain and the pain are objects of massive touristisation that often ends up distorting them. In many cases, that usually means the parody of the past and also a loss of respect to our ancestors and their vital traditions. Therefore, for this reason, located in a general plane, but also in what is particularly referring to the MUME, when it is mentioned the alleged benefits of what we call memory tourism, it is necessary to insist that this type of approximation to the past requires especially the accompaniment of a solid pedagogical task, that is, that it is beneficial to know the events of the past that are associated with values and attitudes often forgotten, marginalized or banalized in the present and that by rescuing them they can increase the civic, ethical and democratic education of the citizens. This option, we could say, is the one in some way and with this I think I should end because the time is running out. This has been the option that we have been working from the opening of the MUME that was in February of 2008. Well, I have left many things to explain, but I leave it here and thank you very much for listening to my words. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Jordi. Well, with these reflections we give way to your comments and questions. I think it has been like three models, three forms of expression of socialization, the transmission of memory from three different areas, from pedagogy, from civil society and from the memorial institution, from the institution itself, with all the complexities and implications that this contemplates. So I think it is a good time to give way to your reaction, your questions, your comments. Good afternoon. My name is Haya Feldman, Educational Coordinator of the International Department of Yad Vashem, Jerusalem, Israel, where the Yad Vashem complex is composed by not only the historical museum, which, of course, is the largest museum in the world today in the Holocaust, since 2005, which was inaugurated, but also has monuments of memory, of memory, of research centers, of association, of art museums and the International School of the teaching of the Holocaust, which is my question and my comment, especially despite that the three projects are very interesting and all these two days are very interesting. Specifically, I am going to address to the colleagues from Italy about the Euroclio that interests me and interests us and we are often also in collaboration. At the International School of Yad Vashem an educational philosophy was developed many years ago. It is not the moment because we do not have time to explain to you how much pleasure it would have but one of the things that we do is work, although we are not Europeans, we have the roots very linked to all of Europe and therefore they go through our classes and we travel to different countries from all over the world and especially with Europe. We have a lot of connection with many graduates from seminars, including from Italy, Portugal, Spain, what they did, and even Twin together with us too. And my question is first, comments too in a moment. Only history, only history teachers can approach, use or help this project that you are having or we could of course see it more interdisciplinary like I said already for, okay, languages, languages. In what way could they expand? For example, we from Yad Vashem I think we can collaborate a lot also in projects like we did also in itwining giving, since there are materials in all the developed languages, films, you can also see them on Yad Vashem's page, cultural exchange and from a pedagogical point of view since we can also exchange, I repeat again, experiences, see how we can enrich ourselves or help also integrate or see more how it is taught from the Holocaust which is one of the elements of philosophy, that the Holocaust although it is something particular in principle of the Jewish people we do not leave it there only but we pass it of course universal and that is where we could see how one collaborates with the other Thank you very much We are going to pick up the three questions of the moment of the audience and then we return Costes Carpos, I represent the Contemporary Social History Archives in Athens and I have a question based on the experience of the Hungarian movement for this monument and I think that this Hungarian story has a broader implication it's just not a Hungarian story and my question is to what extent do you relate your actions to the broader shift in history and public history and memory in Eastern Europe that we're witnessing now there's a new law in Poland the issue of status seems to be one of the main controversies in the Baltic countries and in Budapest itself the Museum of Terror exemplifies a conflation this dominant narrative of the you know the true totalitarianism and the Hagarians being in the middle of these two equally totalitarian ideologies and I was wondering your movement I mean in the ideal scenario what would happen in the public landscape of Budapest what would I mean what is your strategic goal? Okay We pick up a third and we go back to the table and then we do another one Here there was a part of you Excuse me Good afternoon My name is Teresa Deloyo and I'm coordinator of the Ravensbruck Amical We share the concern expressed by the director of the MUME about the banalization of facts and historical events We have many consultations apart from that we give periodic talks when they ask us in schools, libraries and other entities we have many direct consultations from the students when they do a research job the first thing they do is contact us through the web and tell us we want to interview the only survivor who is alive today here in Catalonia we have two but the other one lives in the south of France So we have a constant struggle to say no look this bibliography read whatever you want and if once you have read this if you have the consultations we will solve it What I want to say is how you can counteract this tendency to easy work when this lady comes out on TV I want to talk to her instead of reading the books that can illustrate you and then about those doubts that can arise if you ask for help Thank you Very good Yes, I'm going to answer Castellano since he did this to me Of course that all the material and all the humidity and all the sources that are there saving going up to the historian Eus Eus can be used in any way that is many times even we think that it is not only for history but for many signatures as a citizen yes with different names that can be different countries can be very useful with which at this moment there are already for example certain materials and certain units of the Holocaust that can be currently used our material about silence and I imagine that it will be half a year normally the material that is uploaded in English or if the material is in the original living if it is a post for example has a small translation in English so that at least we can have a small transcription of what is in a French language and of course that the historian would be delighted as a website that they would upload if they sent they could not add sources entering the same web there are many ways to explain how to try to send how to upload documents or photos or movies or whatever because the idea is to try to make as many resources as possible and as rich as possible so that you can send them to everyone I imagine that I have answered if not we will continue Yes Francis Yes to your question I don't hear myself well but it is not a problem so your first question was to put Living Memorial in an East European perspective of larger scale if we we take things into account which happened outside Hungary yes we try to take into account as many things as possible and three or four new very important topics and enter our view every day or something so and and our company there in the Sabachakte in Liberti Square in Budapest is broadening and there are new people from outside Hungary too so and now we start to think about making a blog a radio program so we want to open to the entire world really and then you will be able to contact us in English online not at the moment but very soon so concerning the question of when you mentioned the terror has the house of terror which is an entire so there is a Holocaust a memorial place in Budapest and that's the other that wants to be the other side of remembrance in history because there is a kind of as we call it a kind of war of traumas or trauma in Hungary and public life and and the Jews are crying for their Holocaust because they always speak about Auschwitz and the Saba Czakir why on earth can I not tell my own story my great-grandfather died and the Don banned my other great-grandfather died that or died or not died but had had lost a piece of land in Transylvania after Trianon so for the first since the first time we met there in Saba Czakir and formed that circle to speak with each other we realized that that we cannot think and cannot stress that one trauma is more valuable than another one but somehow somehow we say we insist that Auschwitz means something different we have to we have to keep it unrelativized relativized in order not to be you know in order for the other traumas to be taken into account it's a it sounds a paradox but it's not according to my view I don't know if if I answered what you really meant to answer the third question about the analysis of the memory a little directed to you but maybe it's transversal and you can but Jordi if you want to answer well in this particular case of Neus Katala for example I think he has quite he has a lot to do also with a transversal phenomenon of the last years in the contemporary societies that some sociologists have called me as the audio visual audio visualization of the society in which they acquire a lot of importance the media of communication and appear in the media of communication and above all talk about yourself and in some way this in some way it has been internalizing what would be the imaginary of the majority of the population and in this case there is also another phenomenon that you have talked about before which is the issue of institutionalization of the witness that in some cases other authors talk about the sacralization of the witness in this case there is a lot of bibliography about this issue but specifically in our country what refers to Catalonia which is what I know better I think that too precisely if if there is this problem that the witness only the witness as the only way of access to that past has also had a lot to do with especially the use that they have made of it media of communication in the last 15 years in some way I don't want to say the whole world but broad sectors in some way have been complex of this participation in the media of communication they have made documentaries many some have really had they have been useful but we are always in that line let's say dangerous to end up falling in what would be what we call banalization the superficial access to that past and I think it has a lot to do with this I even that we have relations especially with teachers of institutes I see that even the same the same educators that that promote that in some way they propose to their students that they do this type of work without giving importance to other sources that could be bibliographic but we also have on the network many sources that perhaps today are more easy for the students or the young students to use them since we know that they are very hard to read but I think it has a lot to do with this situation that we have lived in the last years and my answer how we can avoid these situations is really difficult because what is the media as we know is a a very powerful tool of contemporary society and really I think that from institutions like ours what we have to try to convey is precisely a critical work and especially try to show that try to explain that the destiny is a way of access to that past very very powerful and surely very good in this sense but that we have to have let's say a critical precaution at the time of approaching that past here also in our country we could say that we are paradigmatic precisely in what would be the falsification of the past through the witnesses we have the case of Enric Marcos somehow I don't know if I suppose that most of the people you are here you know the case but it is a person that for years appears well especially in the last 15 years usually the media explaining their deportation and their internment in the field of Flosenburg I think it was no Flosenburg how? Mazau Flosenburg no Flosenburg no no, it was Flosenburg and then it was discovered that it was a story totally false invented well we already know that it is not the only case but we know there were books made by journalists about this person it seemed habitually in the media precisely it is let's say a symptom of the problems we have in our society especially from that phenomenon that I think I don't know if it is human it gave visualization of contemporary society I think well I don't know if I have answered your question well I think we have opened a debate that we could continue 24 more hours between disciplinary conflicts and other themes that can come out and the time is over it is 5.30 I think an hour and a bit delayed we can still answer questions no we can't maybe we can leave these questions for the end of the session closing therefore we leave here this first workshop of the afternoon thanking thank you very much to all and all your presence and your contribution thank you very much thank you very much thank you very much thank you very much thank you very much