 Good afternoon and welcome to the House Committee on Natural Resources, Fish and Wildlife. We have with us today our Legislative Council, Ellen Tchaikowsky, to do a walkthrough of S148 and act relating to environmental justice in Vermont. Welcome Legislative Council Tchaikowsky. Thank you. Good afternoon. So S148 is an act relating to environmental justice in Vermont. Currently it is up for second reading on the Senate floor. So it hasn't even been debated yet on the Senate floor. It came out of the House Natural Resources Committee. I'm sorry. It came out of the Senate Natural Resources and Energy Committee. And then went to Senate appropriations. So what you have on your website today is the version as recommended as recommended by Senate Natural, as well as the amended amendment from Senate appropriations amending the appropriation section. So it is draft 5.1 that was recommended natural. So this is where the bill stands right now. I can't guarantee that the Senate appropriations amendment is going to get approved. But I don't know. And I don't know if there will be any other floor amendments proposed and accepted. So this is just caveat. This is where the bill is right now. What was voted over out of the Senate natural. I don't know. This is almost a month ago that we did this. So I can get back to you because I'm sure it will come up when they do the floor report. I'm, I think it's up for second reading tomorrow, but never quite know what the Senate is doing with their calendar. So, I don't know what the Senate is doing with their calendar for a few days and they've passed over it. So I think it's up tomorrow, but I really don't know. All right. So section one is a finding section. This finding section is quite long. It's five pages. So I will walk you through it unless you want to pass over it. Yeah, I was recommended by the, I'm sorry, I didn't see the amendment. Yeah. Yeah, so the 23 page document is what Senate natural pass and then appropriations is proposing to change them. Money in the bill. Yes, they're proposing a smaller budget for all this. So. All right, so section one page one findings. The general assembly finds that according to American Journal of Public Health Studies published in 2014. In 2014 and 2018 and affirmed by decades of research, black, indigenous and persons of color and individuals with low income are disproportionately exposed to environmental hazard and unsafe housing facing higher levels of air and water pollution mold lead and pests. A few relative impacts of environmental harms disproportionately and adversely impact the health of BIPOC and communities with low income. Climate change functioning as a threat multiplier is disproportionate adverse impacts are exacerbated by lack of access to affordable energy, healthy food, green spaces and other environmental benefits. Since 1994 executive order 12898 has required federal agencies to make achieving environmental justice part of their mission by identifying and addressing disproportionately high and adverse human health or environmental effects of its programs policies and activities on minority populations and populations with low income. In the United States, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 30% of Vermont towns with high town household poverty have limited access to grocery stores. In addition, a study conducted at the University of Vermont showed that in Vermont, BIPOC individuals are twice as likely to have trouble affording for affording fresh food and to go hungry in a month than white individuals. An adequate transportation impedes job access, narrowing the scope of jobs available to individuals with low income and potentially impacting job performance. In 2020, the Center for American Progress found that 70% of BIPOC individuals in Vermont live in nature deprived census tracks with a higher proportion of natural areas lost to human activities than the Vermont median. In contrast, 27% of white individuals live in these areas. US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention states that systemic health and social inequities disproportionately increases the risk of racial and ethnic minority groups becoming infected and dying from COVID-19. In page three, according to the Vermont Department of Health and equities and access to and quality of health care, employment and housing have contributed disproportionately to disproportionately high rates of COVID-19 among BIPOC Vermonters. An analysis by the University of Vermont researchers found that mobile homes that are more likely are more likely than permanent structures to be located in a flood hazard area. In the BIPOC BIPOC BIPOC store my reign, mobile parks and over 561 mobile homes in Vermont were damaged or destroyed. Mobile homes make up 7.2% of all housing units in Vermont. And we're approximately 40% of the sites affected by tropical storm Irene. The University of Vermont study reports that BIPOC individuals were seven times more likely to have gone without heat in the past year. Over two times more likely to have trouble affording electricity and seven times more likely to own a solar panel less, I'm sorry, seven times less likely to own a solar panel than white Vermonters. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency recognizes Vermont recognized Vermont's deficiencies in addressing environmental justice concerns related to legacy mining and mobile home park habitability, providing grants through these projects in 1998 and 2005. Vermont state agencies receiving federal funds are subject to the anti-discrimination prohibit requirements of Title Six of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. They have documented inadequacy of state and federal environmental and land use laws to protect vulnerable communities, increasing numbers of states have adopted formal environmental justice laws and policies. At least 17 states have developed mapping tools to identify environmentally overburdened communities and environmental health disparities. The state of Vermont does not currently have a state managed mapping tool that clearly identifies environmentally overburdened communities. In 1991 principles of environmental justice, adopted by the first National People of Color Environmental Leadership Summit, demand the right of all individuals to participate as equal partners at every level of decision making, including needs assessment, planning, implementation, enforcement and evaluation. Article seven of the Vermont Constitution establishes the government as a vehicle for the common benefit and security of Vermonters and not for the particular emolument or advantage of any single set of persons who are not a part of that community. This, coupled with article one's guarantee of equal rights to enjoying life, liberty and safety, and article four's assurance of timely justice for all encourages political officials to identify how particular communities may be unequally burdened, or receive unequal protection under the law due to race, income or geographic locations. On January 27, 2021, President Biden signed executive order 14008 tackling the climate crisis at home and abroad. That created a government-wide justice initiative that aims to deliver 40% of the overall benefits of federal investments related to climate, natural disasters, environment, clean energy, clean transportation, water and wastewater, infrastructure, and legacy pollution reduction to disadvantaged communities that have been historically marginalized or overburdened by the pollution and under investment. According to American Community Survey data from 2016 to 2019, at least 51% of census block groups in Vermont, or 52% of Vermont's population. And the Justice 40 Initiative federal guidelines of a disadvantaged community. Lack of a clear environmental justice policy has resulted in a piecemeal approach to understanding and addressing environmental justice in Vermont, and creates a barrier to establishing clear definitions, metrics and strategies to ensure meaningful engagement, and more meaningful and more equitable distribution of environmental benefits and burdens. And the State of Vermont's responsibility to pursue environmental justice for its residents, and to ensure that its agencies do not contribute to unfair distribution of environmental benefits to or environmental burdens on low income, limited English proficient and BIPOC communities. Thank you for that very long introduction. Members have questions on any of those findings or are there citations for them. Yes. I just wanted to know the same page. I think it's going now finding to get it. Page three. I think it's freezing up. Did they give you, we know what the online for nine analysis by the University of Vermont researchers, we know when that analysis was done. I have a bibliography for these. I don't have it on me. I can get it to you. And what I can tell you, I think I have it in my email. What I can tell you is that the environmental justice law clinic at the Vermont law school drafted these findings that a number of students worked on it. They presented those to the Senate natural committee, so they did do all of the research to have the bibliography for the findings. So that is documented. So I can get that to you. That'd be good. I think it would be good just, yeah, to share it with the whole committee and we can post it. Okay. It's the same as in 10 right? Is that the same state? Yes. I can. I think I have them. I don't have them physically in front of me. They're in my email somewhere. But they, yeah, I'd like to see it. Representative Dylan. Thank you, Ellen. Just a couple of questions. One is that have environmental justice programs have identified compliance with existing laws as a contributor to the inequities and the overburning. Did, did, was that at all discussed in your mind over in the Senate or at least are there any references versus available to look at that question. Oh, I don't. Are you, are you saying can you, can you rephrase your question? Once a particular California, I haven't looked into other states, but they identified one of the contributing factors to the concern about overburning has been the lack of compliance with existing laws and regulations. So, oh, okay. So like enforcement enforcement being a contributor to the overburning. And I didn't see a finding on that. No, there wasn't a substantial discussion on that aspect, although that does come up in the next section in the definitions. And it does strongly suggest that part of environmental justice is the equal enforcement of laws in all communities. So I don't think they took specific testimony on that, but it's something pretend potentially you could look into more deeply. I guess when I representative dole when you asked that question I was thinking the sort of requirement to permit or allow businesses to happen with could potentially exacerbate environmental justice but you both just went to enforcement. It could, could it be both mean. Yes. Yes. And this just in from our lovely committee assistant s 148 passed out of Senate natural on a 500 vote and the appropriations amendment was 601. Okay. Right. Great. Next section. So, Section two adds a new section in title three on environmental justice. So it's a whole new chapter on environmental justice added in title three. And that is because the environmental justice is this chapter is going to create an environmental justice state policy. So it will apply to all state agencies. So that is why it's in title three. And there will be mention of the other state agencies throughout. There are some specific tasks for an hour, but it will apply to the all the state agencies. The first section is a definition section. And so these definitions will be used throughout and later, but so, so let me know if you have questions. They are a little worthy verbose. And so I will say that really they they're wording but there are just a couple of big concepts here we're talking about environmental justice and and largely what environmental justice means in the shortest terms is an equal distribution of environmental benefits and environmental burdens. And so there are a lot of details of what those two things can include. And that's why these are some some longer things but as this moves forward. I think environmental justice is equal distribution of benefits and burdens, and it also requires meaningful participation by communities. So that's the other big definition in here. Environmental benefits means the assets and services that enhance the capability of communities and individuals to function and flourish in society, such as access to a healthy environment and clean natural resources, including air, water, land, green spaces, constructed and other outdoor recreational facilities and venues, affordable clean renewable energy sources, public transportation, fulfilling indignified green jobs, healthy homes and buildings, healthcare, nutritious food, indigenous food and cultural resources, environmental enforcement and training and funding dispersed or administered by governmental agencies. And so that last segment I think goes back to the conversation. A lot of other states include in their definitions that environmental enforcement training and funding from agencies are part of the environmental benefits that need to be evenly distributed. So the counter to that are environmental burdens. This means any significant impact to clean air, water and land, including any destruction, damage or impairment of natural resources, resulting from intentional or reasonably foreseeable causes. Examples of environmental burdens include climate change, air and water pollution and proper sewage disposal and proper handling of solid waste and other noxious substances, excessive noise, activities that limit access to green spaces, nutritious food, indigenous food or cultural resources, or constructed outdoor playgrounds and other recreational facilities and venues, inadequate remediation of pollution, reduction of groundwater levels, increased flooding or storm water flows, home and building health hazards, including lead paint, lead plumbing, asbestos and mold, and damage to inland waterways and water bodies, wetlands, forests, green spaces or constructed playgrounds or other outdoor recreational facilities and venues from private, industrial, commercial or government operations, or other activity that contaminates the quality of the environment, and poses a risk to public health. So, why is constructed playgrounds in place and man is this thing like themes, trying to be inclusive. Yes, a theme is, is inclusivity. That's definitely a theme. It's used slightly differently in both. It's, I'd be happy to look into making it more succinct if that would be something you were interested. I think there are witnesses who were invested in having some specific language in here but I do think it reflects that there are two things happening here. One is activities that limit access to these places and then damage to these places. This is some other environmental justice legislation in other states. I think that is a question for perhaps some of the advocates on this there are other. There are quite a few other states who have drafted language. I do think this is, has combined a few work of a few different other states. So I'm not sure if there's this definition matches anyone exactly. I just, I think there's someone who probably knows the answer to that I suspect conservation law foundation may be able to but for my law school also has looked their clinic has also looked at well what other states have done and so I think the advocates are proposing language that merged a few different states. It's kind of a hybrid. I think so yes. Thanks. Okay, environmental justice. So I'm on page seven line 10 environmental justice means all individuals are afforded equitable access to and distribution of environmental benefits. Equitable distribution of environmental burdens. They are an equitable treatment and meaningful participation in decision making processes. And the development implementation and enforcement of environmental laws, regulations and policies. Environmental justice recognizes the particular needs of individuals of every race, color, income class ability status, gender identity, sexual orientation, national origin, ethnicity or ancestry, religious belief or English level English language proficiency level. Environmental justice redresses structural and institutional racism, colonialism and other systems of oppression that result in the marginalization degradation, disinvestment and neglect of black, indigenous and persons of color. Environmental justice requires prioritizing resources for community revitalization, ecological restoration, resilience planning and adjust recovery to communities most impacted by environmental burdens and natural disasters. Um, environment. Colonialism really. What kind of testimony did they get about that? Are you aware? Well, I do think that there is. interest in protection and reinvestment in indigenous groups making sure that their voices are heard. So I think that that that that could work there. Thank you. All right, so one so the next definition is really important for some practical aspects of the bill in the later sections. So environmental justice population. Environmental justice population means any census block group in which the annual median household income is not more than 80 percent of the state median household income. Persons of color and indigenous peoples comprise at least six percent or more of the population. Or at least one percent or more of households have limited English proficiency. And I'll quickly just add that limited English proficiency is also defined and it means the household does not have an adult who speaks English very well as defined by the US Census Bureau. So that is that's a concept that is defined by the US Census. And I did also want to reflect back to line four, which also uses the phrase census block group. So I've learned a little bit about that. A census block is the smallest unit of measurement in the US Census. A census block group is the next size up. And so it is a collection of census blocks. And so it's approximately the size of a neighborhood. So that's sort of the scale we're talking about. That's a new. It's multiple census blocks. Fifty two percent. So what is the census block? The smallest unit of measurement. So do we have a sense of how many people are in any of these size population? It is by population. So when we had redistricting maps, they had that census block map up. If you looked with the map person, he would show you the blocks in your town. So some that were more rural might be quite large. And some more the more dense, like I noticed in, you know, our villages, they were quite tight. So I suspect there's a number involved. Yeah, that makes sense. We should find out. Yeah, I am not the expert there. Question. Now, I believe we took testimony last week that the media, 80 percent of media and yielded like 52 percent of Vermont's population. Did anyone talk about what the median was household income? Yes, I have that somewhere in my notes. It's actually it's the three. It's A, B and C together equal 52 percent. Oh, yes. So if you look at or it's an or. Right. Because any one of those triggers the title of environmental population. And so together there is a there was an estimate done that any of the census blocks that would trigger one of those three things adds up to approximately 52 percent of Vermont's population. I see. So so I want to live in or at the end of the sense on line seven. No. So why is there why is there or that at the end of line nine? Because grammatically, when we do a list, we only use a conjunction at the the last line. You automatically assume that or is it the last one? Yes. Oh, OK. So the 52 percent, does that come up somewhere? Or that's just that becomes up when they talked about, I know, like. Allocating resources, yeah, in this bill, so it's not it was mentioned in the findings. And I think CLF is the one that did the estimation based on the census data. But this definition is used in the goal of directing 55 percent of state investments to environmental justice populations. Yeah. And and say it one more time. 52 percent of the state meets. Those together, at least one of those, at least one of those. So together, either the House, it's it's the the households 80 percent or less median income. Plus those that fall into persons of color and indigenous people. Plus those that have limited English proficiency. That together equals 52 percent of the state population. Now, 2016 to 2019 is the 2020 census. Yeah, 2020 census. I think it's from that. So the other thing that's going to happen in this bill is that there's a direction to actually map and map the environmental justice population. So right now we have rough estimates from the advocates who are looking into this. And this is their proposed definition of what an environmental justice population. That's how they should define it. This this is a topic you can dig into some more. Other states have done this differently. So this is this is tying to sort of demographic traits. And but also directing and are to do some mapping around this. I'm still having a hard time understanding the 52 percent. Because if there's 80, I mean, 80 percent of the state's median income, what was like, what did they look at these individually and how much variation is there? What do you what do you mean? Well, I comment to the state's population is 80 percent of the median income. And that's sort of like, oh, I don't know. I think probably about 80 percent of 50 percent. But it's how it relates to what how we define poverty in the state. I think that's where we need to have a better understanding of what 80 percent of median household income and how does that relate to how we define poverty? Well, that's one of them. That's I mean, I'm just curious how many they each cover. Oh, sure. I don't have that data. I think. So what's the income of that data? They proposed this. In other words, I don't know if the 80 percent is equivalent to how we define low income household. I don't think that's the question. That's a critical question. Well, right. So there are multiple other definitions in the state for. Low income, depending on what area of statute you're using. Because some use the federal poverty level. Some use area median income or county median median income. This is specifically choosing state median income, which is different. Interesting. All right. OK. And then the last definition is meaningful participation. Which means that all individuals. The opportunity to participate in energy, climate change and environmental decision making, including needs, assessments, planning, implementation, permitting, compliance and enforcement and evaluation. Meaningful participation also integrates diverse knowledge systems, histories, traditions, languages and cultures of indigenous communities in decision making processes. It requires that communities are enabled and administratively assisted to participate fully through education and training. Meaningful participation requires the state to operate in a transparent manner with regard to opportunities for community input and also encourages the development of environmental energy and climate change stewardship. So that is another major component of this bill is how it is going to be directing state agencies to update their rules to better incorporate meaningful participation in their processes and developing community engagement plans. Many of them already have to do. Two under Title Six. Yes. It's not required, but recommended. But I think we require them. It's about to provide. I mean, we've VTrans. We've gone round and round with them about their public outreach. And they I remember we had conversations in this room about it. And they have a. I guess a guiding document that they bring in. Right. So most of the agencies in their their permitting requirements do have a public or at least public notice component. I do think this bill is seeking to suggest that more is needed as opposed to just notice an opportunity for a single public hearing. So how would we find out what we currently require for outreach for public engagement, maybe public participation? Whether meaningful or not. But what do we require now for participation? So Senate Atrium did have all of the state agencies come in and and discuss how this bill would either dovetail with their existing work or change their existing work. So I think. I think they had every single state agency come in. So that's something you could do. Well, it could be recently being asked later in the bill. But since we're talking about that topic and the state agencies and what they're going to be required to do. Even departments. They've heard me that Fish and Wildlife Board could really benefit from that. And they're not mentioned there. And would they be eligible to be mentioned as as Wildlife Board? That's a good. Point. I don't know. I certainly think we could add them to the list, which is farther down in this next. Yeah. Yeah, I think you I. I think you could add them to the list. Good. Let's get to that list. I'm interested. Sure. OK, so section six thousand and two, the Environmental Justice State Policy. It is the policy of the state of Vermont that no segment of the population of the state should, because of its racial, cultural or economic makeup, bear a disproportionate share of environmental burdens or be denied an equitable share of environmental benefits. It is further the policy of the state of Vermont to provide the opportunity for the meaningful participation of all individuals with particular attention to environmental justice populations in the development, implementation or enforcement of any law, regulation or policy. These the following state agencies, departments and bodies shall consider cumulative environmental burdens as defined by rule pursuant to some section six thousand three a of this title and access to environmental benefits when making decisions about the environment, energy, climate and public health projects, facilities and infrastructure and associated funding. The agencies of natural resources, transportation, community, commerce and community development of agriculture, food and markets and of education. Public Utility Commission, the Natural Resources Board and the Departments of Health, Public Safety and Public Service. On or before July 1, 2025, every state agency shall create and adopt a community engagement plan that decides how the state agency will engage with environmental justice populations as it evaluates new and existing activities and programs. Community engagement plans shall align with the core principles, align with the core principles developed by the Interagency Environmental Justice Committee pursuant to subdivision six thousand and four and take into consideration the recommendations of the Environmental Justice Advisory Council. Each plan shall describe how the agency plans to facilitate equitable participation and support meaningful and direct involvement of environmental justice populations in compliance with title six of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Every state agency shall submit annual summaries to the Environmental Justice Advisory Council established pursuant to subdivision six thousand and four detailing all complaints alleging environmental justice issues or title six violations and any agency action taken to resolve such complaints. Agency shall consider the recommendations of the advisory council pursuant to six thousand and four C2E and subsequently respond to writing if an agency chooses not to implement any of the recommendations within 90 days after receipt of the recommendations. All right, so there's a lot in this section, but I've just also introduced you to two new bodies that are being created later in this bill. We have the Interagency Committee, which will be made up of the agency heads and then the advisory council, which will be a lay body made up of appointed members. And one of their duties, as was just mentioned, is that agencies will submit summaries to the advisory council detailing complaints and they will provide feedback to the agencies on those complaints. And then an agency can choose to adopt the recommendations or if they don't decide to adopt the recommendations, they have to respond in writing as to why. These two relate to each other. They will work together in some instances. That's in all of section six thousand four is about that. But there's a group of the state agency members. That's a separate committee. And then there's the advisory council, which will be appointed members. And they are directed to hold, I think at least two meetings a year jointly. But they have some distinct duties also. They have shared members. No. The exception being I think the director of racial equity is on both. But otherwise, originally it was just one oversight body and it was separated into agency staff and lay member staff have two separate bodies. Yeah, question. Yeah, I have a quick question. Who decides if an agency is complying with these regs? Am I getting ahead of it? Yeah, so there there will be some oversight as sort of indicated here that complaints can be they have to they have to be monitoring any complaints that they have and reporting them to the advisory council. But otherwise, because we're going to we're going to get to in a second, what we've just described is that the agencies have to adopt these engagement plans. You're also going to have to go through rulemaking. There isn't any clear enforcement authority. But if because there will be rulemaking, they're going to have to comply with legislative intent. And if there's concern there, there could be the regular Elkar process, or there is going to be some oversight from the advisory council, they'll be they're directed to raise their objections with Elkar. If they have objections to agency rules, not meeting the environmental justice standards. There isn't any like clear citizen suit provision or anything in here. Thanks. I'm sure they need further notice. All right, onto page 11. Subsection E. The agency of natural resources in consultation with the environmental justice advisory council and the interagency environmental justice committee shall review the definition of environmental justice population at least every five years and recommend revisions to the general assembly to ensure the definition achieves the environmental justice state policy. Honor before July 1 2023, ANR in consultation with the interagency environmental justice committee and the environmental justice advisory council shall issue guidance on how the agency's departments and bodies listed in subsection B shall determine which investments provide environmental benefits to environmental justice populations. A draft version of the guidance shall be released at least 60 day for a 60 day public comment period before being finalized. So that concept of investments, I'm going to talk about more in a second, but ANR is going to work with these two bodies to issue guidance on what counts as an investment. And that is important in the next couple of subsections. Honor before January 15 2024, all agencies departments and bodies listed in subsection B shall, in accordance with ANR's guidance document developed to pursuant to subsection F, review the past three years and generate baseline spending reports that include where investments were made, if any, and which geographic areas at the municipal level and census block group where applicable, received environmental benefits from those investments. And percentage of overall environmental benefits from those investments provided to environmental justice populations. So agencies are required to look back and do baseline spending reports based on the last three years. The agency's departments and bodies shall publicly post the baseline spending reports on their respective websites. Honor before July 1, 2024, the agency's departments and bodies listed in subsection B shall direct investments to environmental justice populations with a goal of at least 55 percent of the overall benefits from those investments going to environmental justice populations. So that's a fairly significant portion of this bill is establishing a goal that at least 55 percent of benefits from investment go to environmental justice populations. And if it's of, I'm sorry, all what investments, all state investments? It's the so there's going to be a process. I think there's some more a little bit further down. But basically, A&R is going to come up with this concept of what types of investments we're talking about, because we're mostly talking about environmental investments. And so A&R is going to come up with a guidance document about what kinds of things these are. It's probably going to include grants funding for construction. And so they're going to for more further define what these investments are. And then there this is establishing a goal that of environmental benefit of environmental investments. Fifty five percent should be directed to environmental justice populations. Can we start a little bit? We'll get into this more, but how do you what is an environmental investment? I think that's right. OK, but I think there's some more language that I haven't got into unless we've completely deleted it. But water, yeah. OK, wastewater or water or water. That raises the question I have in terms of whether that aligns with where the biggest need is. You know, for a dollar invested, though, in water quality improvement has required likely required under TMVLs under like the Clean Water Act. So that's one question. And the second is where the fifty five percent came from. We went through something similar to this and panel, but we actually went out to parks and got the wages and the number of populations and so forth to get one of the grants we got. On the issue now, there's some HUD and so forth was just this type of thing. We were looking at the population, the most need. What did it mean? And where could we get money? And we spent over twenty million dollars and only spent two million on alone. So we did three villages and the majority of them were mobile home parks. We served and. And I'll tell you, it's made a big difference versus bubbling up under the trailers. So I see that's a really good point. It's I'm still it's uncertain to me, though, whether, as we know, we have. Clean Water Act directives to achieve water quality improvements. And. The question of whether this aligns with the priorities that we need to accomplish that dollar invested to achieve the maximum pollutant reduction. You know, the cost effectiveness of that investment. And so when you talk about, you know, first, where the five percent came from, but when you talk about direct investments, we still have that. You know, need to ensure cost effectiveness of that dollar invested for overall water quality improvement. So I see a differential between some investments, such as, as you described, safe housing. Another such as tension to mobile home parks. But I also see, you know, the potential conflict here. So. Well, the other things I see is like mass transit. Groceries, they talk if you look at the beginning of the bill, I talked about no grocery stores in these small towns, one of those and a lot of other things. But we don't have mass transit. We don't have a way to get these people that don't really have cars point A to point B. And I could see that as an investment for a lot of smaller communities around the larger cities, the larger towns, I should say, because we don't have many cities in the state. But so, you know, and that serves the type of people they're talking about. I think there's lots of projects if you give a little thought to it. You know, if that was discussed at all. Point nine made on prospectus of dollar invested to achieve our federally required restoration goals. That's certainly something you could take testimony on. I was not present for all the testimony that was taken on this bill in the Senate. Yeah. And I think it's not fair to keep asking Ellen the same question of what the other witnesses say. I think if we have questions, we need to get the answers. And then I would just add, I think in a prior graph, there actually was I'm looking and maybe it's just because I'm it's late in the afternoon. I thought there was another subsection that actually provided more of a detailed discussion of what was included in the investments. I'm not seeing it now, but this bill was revised multiple times. And so if you are looking for additional clarity and I think there's there's room for that. But there this is directing and are to come up with guidance document on what is meant by investments, because it certainly can't be everything. Staff cost is something that came up as in the discussion of how most state agencies spend a lot of their most of their budget on personal personnel expenses, as opposed to community investments. So there will need. Their detail on that and so right now, and are is going to get in stock, but if you want to put some more detail on that, that's certainly something you could do. And fifty five percent came from the advocates. Yeah. OK. All right, so so line nine on page twelve. Honor or before July one, twenty twenty five and annually thereafter, all agencies, departments and bodies listed in Subsection B shall issue annual spending reports that include where investments were made and which geographic areas at the municipal level and census block group were applicable, received environmental benefits from those investments and the percentage of overall environmental benefits from those investments provided to environmental justice populations, the agencies, departments and bodies shall publicly post the annual spending reports on their respective websites. Honor before December 15th, twenty twenty five and in our shall submit a report to the General Assembly describing whether the baseline spending reports completed pursuant to Subsection G indicate if any municipalities or portions of municipalities are routinely underserved with respect to environmental benefits, taking into consideration whether those areas receive average across three years, a significantly lower percentage of environmental benefits from state investments as compared to other municipalities or portions of municipalities in the state. This report shall include a recommendation as to whether a statutory definition of underserved community or any other revision to the chapter are necessary to best carry out the environmental justice state policy. I'm wondering what significantly means on life. It's probably statistically significant. Lots of different definitions that I don't know. All right, section six thousand and three rulemaking. Honor before July one twenty twenty four A and R in consultation with the Environmental Justice Advisory Council and the Interagency Committee shall adopt rules to define cumulative environmental burdens, implement consideration of cumulative environmental burdens in A and R. And inform how the public and the state agency's departments and bodies specified in subsection six thousand to be implement the consideration of cumulative environmental burdens and use the environmental justice mapping tool. Honor before July one twenty twenty five and as appropriate there after the agencies of natural resources of transportation and of development of agriculture, food and markets and of education, the Public Utility Commission, the Natural Resources Board and the Departments of Health of Public Safety and of Public Service and consultation with the Environmental Justice Advisory Council shall adopt or amend policies and procedures, plans, guidance and rules were applicable to implement this chapter. So the state agencies have and departments have to update their rules, plans, guidance to implement the environmental justice policy. Prior to drafting new rules required by this chapter, agencies shall consult with the Environmental Justice Advisory Council to discuss the scope and propose content of the rules to be developed. Agencies shall also submit draft rulemaking concepts to the Advisory Council for review and comment. Any proposed rule and draft administrative procedure act filing forms shall be provided to the Advisory Council, not less than 45 days prior to submitting the proposed rule or rules to ICAR. The Advisory Council shall vote and report individual members support or objection to any proposed rule before to submit it to ICAR. The Advisory Council shall submit the results of their vote to both ICAR and LCAR. So this is adding a step to the rulemaking process. Agencies that are updating their rules in response to the EJ State policy need to present the draft rules to the Advisory Council before they go to ICAR and LCAR. And so we can talk more about the steps of the rulemaking process if that would be helpful. But this is saying that before an agency finalizes its rule by going to ICAR and then LCAR it needs to consult with the Advisory Council. And then the Advisory Council they will vote on whether or not they support the rule is meeting the environmental justice state policy and they will submit the results of their vote to ICAR and LCAR. Is there any other place we do that in statute? No. So I mean, rulemaking takes a while now. It's going to make it even longer. Yes. And so, yeah, this I do think this is an issue that's going to come up in your committee. Senate natural sort of went back and forth because they were competing proposals on what to do here. The advocates are interested in having the Advisory Council review the rules to make sure they are complying with the environmental justice policy and actually implementing the goal. But also, you know, Senate natural was was aware of the the timeline involved in rulemaking and whether or not the Vermont APA statute itself should actually be amended to reflect this process. And so what's happening here is it shouldn't be too disruptive to the overall rulemaking process. It's having them do a check-in with the council and then the council will then report to ICAR and LCAR. Which is something that any member of the public currently could already do. I was just thinking is it's already supposed to be a public process. Which kind of gets to another one of the things that's kind of in lingering for me and maybe we'll get there, but how are our state agencies going to sort of parse out targeting an environmental justice community from the rest of the state? And is there any benefit in doing that? Why wouldn't you engage all citizens of the state respectfully and meaningfully? Sure. So the last two sections, the last five pages I just read do have a lot of information and a lot of content in them. And so on the prior page, I did mention that A&R is going to be establishing a mapping tool and they're going to be providing guidelines on how this mapping tool should be used in their agencies. And so one of the things is what you just raised is how are they going to know how to even look at these populations or or make some of these determinations? So A&R is going to have a lot of the upfront pressure to develop some of the guidance and information that the other agencies are going to be using when they go through this process. In addition, in the prior section, there was all the discussion about the different spending reports that the agencies are going to have to generate. And hopefully this is going to provide historical data on where investments were made previously. Contemporary data and then an analysis of whether or not certain communities are have been consistently or at least recently receiving less funding than other communities. So there is a lot of data that's going to be generated under the terms of this bill, but there's also going to be a lot of work done by A&R working with the advisory council to provide guidance for the other agencies. There's a lot. There is a lot going on. And we just talked about, but. I guess. All right. Section 604 establishes the two bodies I've been referencing. The Environmental Justice Advisory Council and the Interagency Environmental Justice Committee. So the Advisory Council and the Interagency Committee. There is created the Environmental Justice Advisory Council. And so I'm on page 15 now. Thank you. Yeah, line three to provide independent advice and recommendations to state agencies and the General Assembly on matters relating to environmental justice, including the integration of environmental justice principles into state programs, policies, regulation, legislation and activities. And the Interagency Environmental Justice Committee. To guide and coordinate state agency implementation of the environmental justice state policy and to provide recommendations to the General Assembly for amending the definitions and protections set forth in this chapter. Appointments to the groups created in the subsection shall be made on or before December 15th, 2022. Both the Advisory Council and Interagency Committee shall consider and incorporate the guiding principles for a just transition developed by the Just Transitions subcommittee of the Environmental Climate Council in their work. Meetings, the advice, the Advisory Council and Interagency Committee shall meet at least nine times per year with at least four meetings occurring jointly. Sorry, I think I said two before. Onto page 16. Duties. The Advisory Council and the Interagency Committee shall jointly consider and recommend to the General Assembly on or before December 1st, 2023. Amendments to the terminology, thresholds and criteria of the definition of environmental justice populations, including whether to include populations more likely to be at higher risk for health outcomes in response to environmental burdens and examine existing data and studies on environmental justice and consult with state, federal and local agencies and effective communities regarding the impact of current statutes, regulations, policies and policies on the achievement of environmental justice. So those are their two, I think, like big tasks. They will be making recommendations about a lot of the defined terms and criteria on environmental justice populations to the General Assembly. And then they're also going to be looking at data and studies and look at statutes and policies on how to achieve environmental justice in the state. How many people are you talking about on each of these? A lot. I'll get to it, but I think it's it's like 11 and 17. And on the interagency and 17 on the. Yes, it's 17 on the advisory council and 12. Sorry, one for each agency on the interagency. Yeah. Yeah. All right. How many agencies are not in this? I think the ones we left out were the Department of Tax and Financial Regulation. And that might be it. So a couple of segments of the agency of administration were left out. But I might be I might be missing. But I think we hit most, if not all of them, although there are a couple of the weird anomalies like the Fish and Wildlife where we added the PUC and the NRB later in the process. What do you think the question that Representative McCullough asked about does having A&R in their cover the boards and commissions within an agency or do we have to would you have to call them out? I haven't specifically thought through that question because I don't know the precise authority that the Fish and Wildlife Board has because they do think it has its own rules, doesn't it? So that actually might be something that does differentiate it from the rest of A&R because the focus here really has a lot to do with community engagement and meaningful participation. And as he pointed out, that is something they do a lot of or should be doing a lot of. And so it might be worth calling them out specifically. I haven't I haven't thought through that didn't specifically come up. I haven't thought through that before, but it might be worth calling them out. It's a I guess we should check in with Michael. I'm not. OK. All right. So page 16, line 12. The advisory council shall advise state agencies on environmental justice issues on how to incorporate environmental justice into an agency procedures and decision making as required under six thousand and two B and evaluate the potential for environmental burdens or disproportionate impacts on environmental justice populations as a result of state actions and the potential for environmental benefits to environmental justice populations. Advise state agencies in the development of community engagement plans. Advise state agencies on the use of the environmental justice mapping tool and on the enhancement of meaningful participation, reduction of environmental burdens and equitable distribution of environmental benefits. Review and provide feedback to the relevant state agency pursuant to section six thousand three C on any proposed rules for implementing this chapter. Receive and review annual state agency summaries of complaints, as was mentioned before, alleging environmental justice issues, including title six complaints and suggest options or alternatives to state agencies for the resolution of systemic issues raised in or by the complaints. And have the ability to accept funds from the federal government, a political subdivision of the state, an individual, a foundation or a corporation and may use the funds for purposes that are consistent with this chapter, including reimbursing members for their time. We have other advisory councils that can receive funds. That is a great question. And this provision is a little unusual. There's some more language a little bit farther on in the section about this. The agency will be receiving support administrative support from and are. So there is a bit of a disclosure requirement a little bit farther, but this is a little unusual. This provision that allows these lay members of the council to accept funds from outside sources. There was testimony from the advocates that they're interested in having them be compensated above the typical per diem amount. And so this was a way to generate sources for them, source of revenue for them. I'm confused. What's the source of revenue for this? They're allowed to accept funds for outside places. So there's in a direct funding source, but they're allowed to either apply for grants or accept donations. Page 17, line 12, 12 letter F. Yeah. So political party also. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Political. Yeah. Individual or foundation, corporation. Division of state. Being a political subdivision of the state. I think it probably should be municipality, but yeah. Town could give them money. Yes. That's right. Something. I would suggest if you're interested in providing additional legal safeguards on this, I have some ideas. It may be it may be interesting to consider whether or not a special fund should be set up so that all disbursements were monitored Oh, this doesn't even set up a special fund. This just says the folks could take money. Yes. People on this committee and get. As part of their work on this committee. Yes. OK. Is it is it individually accept money or the council can accept money on behalf of the group? The council can accept money when it's not specifically clear. There is some additional language coming up about requiring them to disclose money that they've accepted. But yes, I do think it's later it's at the end of this section about additional language. Yeah, I it might be worth considering giving establishing a special fund so that any disbursements were tracking the money for compensation for time. OK. Let's keep going. OK. Page 17 line 16. The Interagency Committee shall consult with A&R in the development of the guidance document required in six thousand two F on how to determine which investments provide environmental benefits to environmental justice populations. And on or before July one twenty twenty three develop in consultation with A&R and the advisory council a set of core principles to guide and coordinate the development of the state agency community engagement plans required under six thousand two C membership. For the advisory council, each member of the advisory council shall be well informed regarding environmental justice principles and committed to achieving environmental justice in Vermont and working collaboratively with other members of the council to the greatest extent practicable advisory council members shall represent diversity and race ethnicity, age, gender, urban and rural areas and different regions of the state. The advisory council shall consist of the following 17 members with more than 50 percent residing in environmental justice populations. The director of racial equity or designee, one representative of municipal government appointed by the committee on committees, two representatives who reside in a census block group that is designated an environmental justice population, one from the Senate, one from the House onto page 19, two representatives of social justice organizations, one from the Senate, one one appointed by the Senate, one appointed by the House, two representatives of the organizations working on food security issues, one appointed by the Senate, one appointed by the House, two representatives of mobile home park issues, one appointed by the Senate, one appointed by the House, two representatives of a state recognized Native American Indian tribe, recommended and appointed by the Vermont Commission on Native American Affairs, two representatives of immigrant communities in Vermont, one appointed by the Senate and one appointed by the the House, one representative of a statewide environmental organization appointed by the Speaker of the House, Executive Director of the Vermont Housing and Conservation Board, or Designee, and the Chair of the Natural Resources Conservation Council, or Designee. And so I was using some shorthand there. It is appointed by the Senate Committee on Committees and the Speaker of the House, but distribution between House and Senate appointees. So I guess I'm wondering, we're directing our state agencies to develop an environmental justice policy, essentially, with this bill. And I guess I'm wondering how some of these representatives were selected in terms of the relevance to that task. Is there a discussion about that? I do think the advocates advocated for this list. So you have municipal government, those who live in an environmental justice population area, social justice organizations, food security issues, mobile home park issues. I guess the, in fact, the municipal one was one I was wondering about, are we asking towns to develop environmental justice policies, or how would the towns be participating or involved in this? No, the towns are not specifically directed. Broadly, I do think they will be impacted if they're going to be shifts in how funding is directed for projects. Was there consideration of, I mean, there's a possibility we actually spend more money in environmental justice communities now than, I mean, we have affordable housing. I'm not being flip. I'm just saying like we're investing all the time in our communities. I think that's why the baseline spending reports for the last three years are asked for. So that I don't think there's anyone actually collecting much data on this currently. There may be some data collection happening, but this is connecting that we look back for the last three years. Yeah, it's really interesting in some communities where affordable housing is built, they might not meet any of those three criteria. Yeah, I guess we'll find out. Yeah, we'll find out. But it's interesting. So we may be. But I think that question about the 55% and whether that is going to. But what way that will distort what otherwise might make sense? Or not, whether or not, I don't know what the answer is, but it's really interesting. We would be fixing an environmental justice issue by investing in affordable housing in non-environmental justice communities. Well, we're doing that. No, no, I'm saying, I'm just saying this is what you're saying, but that wouldn't count as fixing the problem under this bill. Potentially. Yeah, potentially, that's what I want to get my answer. Yeah, I get my mental answer on that. Because if you take some towns, there's a lot of towns that, my guess is, don't meet any of those three. And yet there's affordable housing, but they have a population, a subpopulation that's really desperate for, for instance, housing and water. And do they end up? Are they in the wrong place? Well, I was thinking about that. Well, my thought is you're talking about these blocks and census blocks. Now, our town, if it was looked at as a whole, wouldn't have been available for certain money. But if they look at census blocks within a community, that's what the rule comes up. Then every town has a community usually meet one of these requirements. So it's really how the rules are made up and whether they do census blocks or community-wide, because some communities will now be eligible all based on what they were saying. But then there are others that may be the first in line. But if they begin to do census blocks, then every community has a chance, not just the ones that are circled. And we also that takes us back to. So it's how they do it really understand what us. I know the definition. What does that really translate to? OK, yeah, anyway. OK, OK. So the Interagency Committee, I'm on page 20, top of the page. The Interagency Committee shall consist of the following health members, the Secretary of Administration or Designee, Secretary of Natural Resources or Designee, Secretary of Transportation or Designee, Commissioner of Housing and Community Development or Designee, Secretary of Agriculture, Food and Markets or Designee, Agriculture, Food and Markets Secretary of Education or Designee, Commissioner of Health or Designee, Director of Emergency Management or Designee. You don't have to keep saying or Designee. OK, Commissioner of Public Service, Chair of the Public Utility Commission, Chair of the NRB and Director of Racial Equity. The Advisory Council and Interagency Committee may each elect two co-chairs and may hold public hearings. After initial appointments, all appointed members of the Advisory Council shall serve six year terms and serve until a successor is appointed. Initial term shall be staggered so that one third of the appointed members shall serve two year term, another third shall serve a four year term, and then the remaining shall be a six year term. Vacancies on the Advisory Council shall be appointed in the same manner as original appointments. The Advisory Council shall have the Administrative, Technical and Legal Assistance of A&R. Oh, and then here's the other language regarding funding. Members of the Advisory Council who are neither state nor municipal employees shall be entitled to per diem compensation and reimbursement of expenses as permitted under 32 BSA 1010. Members may accept funds from the federal government of political subdivision, a 501C3 charitable organization and may expend funds for the purposes for purposes that are consistent with this chapter. Any council member who receives funds pursuant to the subdivision shall report to the Secretary of A&R and disclose the source of the funds the amount received and the general purpose for which they were used. The Secretary shall post this disclosure information on its website or on the Advisory Council's own website if such a website exists. Any member individually could receive money here. Yes. Yes. So I do want to point out that in just reading that it doesn't map precisely the language in the other section. So we should probably make sure those manage. OK. Flaggett, this seems weird. Never known of somebody one member can get. It's almost. It's almost like they're paying for a lot of this, you know, I'm going to pay a member because I want him to do something after what I want. That seems like there's a potential there. Representative Dillon, although it reflects how a $50 per diem is woefully inadequate, inadequate to be to get the right type of membership on a board like this. So I flagged out as the unfortunate outcome of not having not sure fundraising is the right solution. Oh, but it's a reflection of. So. They all get some of them would somehow figure out some way to get paid well for their time. Others would get right. It'd be even worse. It might be the way to go. Yeah, OK, better off. Right. Yeah, I do think that you'll hear that there is a growing. Interest in the subject of paying boards and commissions different amounts, reflective of time commitments and getting participation from people who haven't participated historically. And so it came up briefly last session. It's coming up now. The Commission on Truth and Reconciliation has a funding has a special fund in there so that they can receive outside funding and have a special fund to do disbursements to pay members additional compensation. So that is coming up and there have been. I think the Climate Council also had something come up where they were seeking to members could give it them within the membership they could give per diems additional per diems to members who needed it. So there this conversation has started coming up. It's a very big conversation, I think, from a. Policy plan. Yes, but so that is something that you are probably going to hear from the advocates about. So was that going on on the climate council? So I think there was debate. There was debate last session. About how to get additional funding for climate council members and specifically the subcommittee members who were primarily made up of lay members of the public as opposed to agency or lobbying or advocacy groups. And so I think the language that they landed on was that members of the council could not take their per diems in order to allow other members to take a higher per diem. So people who were doing it as a paid job. Which is which is sort of similar to what's happening in that bill we discussed H465. And so that is another layer that I hadn't considered when I was tracking this originally. This that changes the landscape a little bit too. They may be able to receive a slightly higher per diem based on the amount of their appropriation. If it's budgeted by A&R for it to be higher. All right, let's run the home stretch. Yes. Oh, yes, very close. OK, so six thousand five, the environmental justice mapping tool. This is like the other really big component of this concept of environmental justice. There's a federal environmental justice mapping tool and some other states have adopted them as well. So this is a really important component. In consultation with the Environmental Justice Advisory Council and the Interagency Committee, the agency on natural resources shall determine indices and criteria to be used in a state mapping tool to depict environmental justice populations and measure environmental burdens at the smallest geographic level practicable. The agency of natural resources shall maintain the mapping tool. A&R may cooperate and contract and contract with other states or private organizations when developing the mapping tool. The mapping tool may incorporate federal environmental justice mapping tools such as EJScreen, which is the federal one, as well as existing state mapping tools such as the Vermont Social Vulnerability Index. On or before January 2024, the mapping tool shall be available for use by the public as well as the state government. Section three annual report beginning January 15, 2023, 2024, the agency's departments and bodies listed in 62002B shall issue and publicly post an annual report summarizing all actions taken to incorporate environmental justice into the agency or department's policies and determinations, rulemaking, permit proceedings or project review. And then there's an appropriation section. And this is the section that there is an amendment to from the Appropriations Committee. Can we read through what's in this or just? Well, it just changed the number of the dollars. No. Yeah, I think we should. All right. So this and this is something I think your committee is going to want to hear some testimony on. So a JFO was working on a fiscal note for this bill. They reached out to all the state agencies and the state agencies were having a hard time estimating. I think some of them were having a hard time estimating exactly what resources would be required to do this. So when I drafted the appropriation section, the data and information was incomplete. So but the overall headline was that the agencies are concerned they're going to need additional staff to do all of this. So there is appropriated the sum of three million dollars from the general fund. This sum shall be used to carry out the requirements of this act by hiring staff described in subsection B for the cost of developing the mapping tool and for the per diem payments for the council members. The following positions are created for the purpose of performing the environmental justice work. Ten permanent exempt positions at A&R, including two permanent exempt analysts to support the development of the mapping tool. And six permanent exempt positions at the Natural Resources Board, one point five permanent exempt positions at ACCD and two point five permanent positions at the Department of Public Service. This act shall take effect on passage. So the Appropriations Amendment is very short. A total. How many total? Twenty, twenty, twenty. And that's only from those that handful of agencies that reported back. That's only one of the committees. Let's put the amendment right. So appropriations thought that three million dollars was a lot. And so they came back with seven hundred thousand dollars. And so specifically, they said five hundred five hundred thousand dollars to A&R for the cost of developing the mapping tool and then two hundred thousand dollars to A&R to fund two positions to assist in the development of the environmental justice policy and support the Environmental Justice Advisory Council. This shall fund an existing position in the agency and a second position, which the agency has authorized to repurpose from an existing vacant position. So it's not creating any new positions. It's funding two positions, one of which is definitely vacant. And I think the other is for their civil probably for their civil rights person to do this work. And if I understand correctly, the two hundred thousand was already in the budget elsewhere, wasn't it? Yes. So it's not new money. Right. But the five hundred thousand would be new money for the map control. Although it might be one hundred thousand. Yeah, it was not too right. So I do think there is some money existing in the budget. But this is also in recognition of the per diems and the staffing of the committee. The two hundred. Yeah. So I think just currently in the budget is just for the one position. OK. Yeah. The existing was only forty six thousand five hundred to convert a part time to a full time for the civil rights. Oh, OK. OK. All right. Members have any more questions for Ellen? Thank you, Ellen, for that long work. It's very helpful. I just want to mention to the committee that, as you may know, I'm a I take a unfunded leave of absence from the agency to work as a legislator. And I have no longer the working as the Clean Water Initiative program manager. I'm now a director or manager of special projects out of the Department of Environmental Conservation. And for the last two years, I've been working to assist the Department of Environmental Conservation in civil rights compliance with federal law. So as you know, there's the nineteen sixty four Civil Rights Act and that has title sixes is you can't discriminate based on race, color or national origin as defined by persons with limited English. So and I want to have you all know that that's different from environmental justice. Civil rights compliance is compliance with federal law. What we have just learned learning is about environmental justice. There's just really about equity and public engagement to ensure that we're providing for our addressing potential overburdening of communities. So I wanted to just mention that because in disclosure of that, to ensure that if I'm engaged, I like to be engaged in this. I don't want to accuse myself because I do see as a separation of my duties in federal compliance and this work. But I wanted to put that out there and hear your your reactions to that, whether you feel comfortable for me to continue to work on this bill in this and not in committee and beyond that being the case. I would love to know what the I mean, this is also compliance with federal law. So I'm not understanding the civil rights distinction you're making with. This is not the only federal law is making sure we're, as I mentioned, enforcement or compliance with federal environmental laws. Well, justice is not a federal law. Federal laws that were referenced in this bill is what does state government need to do, in this case, Department of Environmental Conservation need to do to comply with federal civil rights laws, which are, as I mentioned, non-discrimination related for identified classes in federal law. So that's different from what we're talking about. I mean, you bring your expertise in your position and history of working for the state to bear in the committee. All the time, I'm not sure I see this as being different. Yeah, and I think part of being have ethical standards is to make sure you're aware of my background pertaining to this. And if you feel comfortable for me to continue to be engaged in this work to help bring that kind of expertise to bear, then I will continue to work and not recuse myself from any final decisions. But I wanted to at least make sure you're aware of that kind of expertise. Just from my own edification, are you drawing income from two different sources? Not yet. She might be able to. I dedicate up to four hours a week on Mondays. Sometimes it's zero. But and that's just to be able to continue. APA has a checklist of what we need to do to come fully comply with federal law. And I've been helping the DEC meet those items on the APA checklist. Yeah, fine. I mean, I I'm certainly agree with Larry that we need your ex. We like your expertise when you need it. So I'm hoping that you don't feel conflicted out. But I've been full, you know, I've been having conversations with the administration, too, on this with Commissioner Walk and and Deputy Secretary of A&R. And thus far, they are supportive of me being engaged. But but I wanted to make sure you all are aware. And whether you are. Thank you for letting us know. You know, I'm not an expert in our kind of conflict of interest areas. But I don't think that it's kind of for us to weigh in on it. I just remember, I suppose, if one of us had a question or concern, we'd bring it to you because we work with you all the time. But thanks for letting us know. And when I'm at working with the DEC, anything related to environmental justice, I step away. I'm not part of any discussion intentionally. We've defined my role solely on federal compliance with federal law. Nothing to do with environmental justice, to have you know, on those few hours on Mondays that I work with them, it's not related to this work. You work more in the weekend. So further further questions of our Legislative Council on this walkthrough now. Thank you, Alonio. All right, we're going to turn for the afternoon.