 Hello, everyone. We're going to wait a little bit to have more attendees join us, and then we're going to officially start the event by welcoming everyone. All right. Hello, everyone, I would like to start by saying we respectfully acknowledge that the University of Arizona is on the land and territories of the old and the yaki peoples who have stewarded this land since time and Memorial. Hello and welcome everyone. My name is up in a while drew plenty and I am an assistant professor with the Department of German studies here at the University of Arizona. I'm happy and excited to welcome all of you to the second and last campus weeks virtual events. This week, which is a conversation about anti black racism in US American contexts. And I would like to start by introducing our conversational lists for today. Dr Gloria J Wilson is the co founder and director of Brazil justice studio and assistant professor of art and visual call visual culture education at the University of Arizona. And artists public scholar and qualitative arts based methodologist. She has presented her research nationally and internationally. Her current research work is situated within black studies cultural studies and critical public pedagogy. She studies power situated in North American based cultural texts, which have produced race and racism in general and more specifically examine the representations of race across creative modalities, and how these practices and processes work to reinscribe and refuse hegemonic systems. She's been the recipient of a Fulbright award to study in Tokyo, Oghizaka, Japan and has also been an invited artists speaker for Spellman colleges Museum of Art black box series. She is recognized for her work and facilitating anti racism workshops and museums and community spaces across the US. Her current art making practices are grounded in critical arts based inquiry and methodologies and include like a damp include the black academic project and forthcoming art installation dedicated to honoring the Senate of the Clotilda survivors in Africa town, Mobile, Alabama. Next I'm going to introduce our second conversation list, Dr Stephanie Troutman Robbins is a black feminist scholar mother and first generation college student. She's the department head of gender and women's studies at the University and Arizona, and is an associate professor of English. She is a formerly affiliated faculty member of Africana studies teaching learning and social cultural studies and the LGBT Institute. She has received a dual PhD in curriculum and instruction and women's studies from the Pennsylvania State University in 2011. A former high school and middle middle grades public school teacher Stephanie is a scholar activist who has been recognized across a variety of community and campus spaces for a mentorship student advocacy and social justice leadership. She's the recipient of UA links awards, the study affairs faculty impact award, and the Dr Maria Teresa vales outstanding mentor award. Dr Troutman Robbins is the former director of two outreach project between the University of Arizona and Tucson schools wildcat writers and the Southern Arizona writing project. These partnership programs serve as local community serve the local community by focusing on title one schools and providing them with opportunities for professional development, academic resources and program programming rooted in diversity equity and inclusion and writing her research interests include literacies focused on social justice feminist pedagogy critical race theory film studies, black feminist theories, schooling, identities and education. The co author of the 2018 book narratives of family asset community gifts and cultural endowments reimagining the invisible knapsack, and the co order of two part of the two part and encyclopedia race and ethnicity and US television published earlier Her research has been published in the Journal of girlhood studies, the Journal of race, ethnicity and education meridians feminism race and transnationalism taboo the Journal of cultural and education, and in the Journal of literacy and show social responsibility. Please everyone join me in welcoming Dr Stratman Robbins and Wilson. Thank you so much for that wonderful and detailed introduction. I'm happy to be here today with my colleague, Gloria Wilson, as we get ready to have this discussion about anti black racism anti blackness in the Academy. Gloria and I actually both share background in public schools and in teaching. And so I think, you know, probably just jump right in and I bring that up to just to sort of foreground that you know a lot of the, I don't know about you Gloria but for me, a lot of the issues that I encountered as a public school teacher as a black public school teacher, you know, I kind of assumed that those things would be different in higher ed. And I don't, you know, the, the more time goes on and I reflect on these different experiences of schooling. You know, working in schools and then also you know being an undergraduate being a graduate student, and I began to think about anti blackness and different anti black encounters I've had. You know, it, it's a little bit disheartening for me that we are not further along in some ways. And so I wonder, you know, just kind of opening with that, you know, what your experiences have been if you kind of feel the same about that. Sure. Yeah, so happy to be here. Thank you so much for the wonderful introductions. Stephanie it's good to be with you today to continue conversations that you know we've had even away from campus life and so I just appreciate having this space to sort of bring this topic to the for. And Stephanie you've reminded me that yeah we had a whole, we had a whole career before we got into higher ed I mean we were, you know, secondary school teachers. And so this is really making me think about those moments prior to coming, even coming into the professional space space of higher ed. That you experience micro and macro aggressions and so this is making me think about teaching in a high school in Mobile, Alabama and so I have to say that my father is black American he is from Alabama he was in the military. And I was in just approaching high school when he retired in Mobile so we had lived, you know, overseas, we lived in Washington State we had lived in South Carolina and I think you're right some of my most watershed moments came when my dad retired and he retired very specifically in Mobile, Alabama and we know that there's lots of history in Alabama Montgomery Birmingham. And so I remember my first year teaching at this predominantly white high school. And prior to that I had taught in a predominantly black middle school and so this was just, you know, an entire shift, not only in racial demographics but also culturally. It was a very rural area in Mobile, and I remember one of the first visualizations that I saw on campus was the Confederate flag, being represented in students wearing belt buckles and hats and t shirts license plates, all trimmed in, you know, confederacy. And so that very first week of school, my window was blown out the driver side window. And it was planning period, and so it was early in the morning, you know it's fall and it's not very hot early in the morning and I remember calling my father first of all because I was, I was upset, and then he told me well you know maybe you just want to report it. And I reported it and here comes the sheriff. The sheriff comes and the first thing he says to me is that son sure is something else isn't it. So he was indicating, at least in my interpretation that it was the heat that had blown out my window but nobody else's. Nobody else is in the parking lot, you know and that was my first sort of, you know moment of understanding. Where I was, you know I'd come out of this, you know teaching in this predominantly black environment black students black teachers, you know and here I am, you know now in this predominantly white environment, experiencing, you know my very first week of teaching here, this, this what I would call macro aggression, you know, there was nothing micro about that, and then to have you know the person who's, who's assigned to sort of protect, you know, say to me, what he said, it was, it made me, you know, want to you know teaching, you know and thankfully I had a reasonable dad who kind of calm me down and talk me through staying there and nine years later, you know, I was the department chair and had done lots of things but had experienced quite a bit of disruption along the way. You know it's interesting to there's a, there's another there's a connection which I don't think I realized before which my dad's also a southern black man he's retired military retired law enforcement in Georgia. And so you know there's this interesting piece that's about very much about geography right and and location and I think being in the south. You know, one of the things I've learned I guess, as we're reflecting is that you know anti blackness is really everywhere. So, I guess, maybe in the south when you're there geographically, you expect it in a certain way, because of the history of the United States, but I think that there's also right ways in which you don't think these other more progressive spaces are going to have the same level of right of racism and then you find out that they do, especially if we're talking about higher ed and just especially reflecting on incidents of the last couple years with police violence in certain metropolitan and you know other kinds of areas and so I think you know, it's really hard because in some ways, again you can anticipate the racism in some of these places even though it's still unpleasant. And I think for me, I didn't, you know, I didn't anticipate it in the academy in the way that I encountered it and I, you know, my first job in higher ed was also was in a predominantly black. You know, at the U Bethune Cookman University and so at Bethune Cookman, you know, it was very much an all black pro black environment of course there are teachers who and professors from other backgrounds, but given the student body and kind of given the history of space, you know, the racism wasn't, you know, I felt it differently. It wasn't as much of an issue. But then moving into more predominantly white institutions and spaces, you know, it definitely came up and I think I was very naive I think you know, I didn't, as I said, I didn't expect it. Right. And so, because I wasn't expecting it I wasn't well prepared for it. And I think that that's one of the things that, if anything, I hope that, you know, younger scholars and graduate students will hear that it is alive and well in the academy unfortunately while there are programs and different, you know, mechanisms in place to try to combat it, that it's, it's very much here, and they have to be prepared right because, again, I think if you're not prepared, you're, you know, you're kind of behind in being able to have mechanisms in place for support or for community or to like push back or deal with it right and so I think that, you know, for me, understanding that yeah you know academia is not this liberal bastion of like multicultural misfits who are all going to, you know, who are here because, you know, they're committed to some of the same, the same things you know and I think some that's been an interesting lesson that I continue to learn in higher ed. Yeah, I agree. The being naive part, you know, and then sort of being startled out of your naivete, you know, trying to do the mental gymnastics about what is happening to you at the time, you know, and this is reminding me you mentioned students and sort of what that experience might be like. And, and I think we also talked about a little bit about, you know, the less visible ways that these things show up, you know, and anytime that you're, you know, you have, you know, sort of you're doing sort of this mental gymnastics about, whether it was something that someone said to you, or, you know, maybe even a look that you that you notice that seems a little bit odd. And just even recalling my own graduate experience and having a professor who needed to needed to support me in articulating that I was studying black people. And she felt the need to support me in that and this was a white professor, because I was hesitant to articulate that out loud, because of a program that I was in that had silenced me in many ways. So, it's just interesting how, how these things happen. And if, if we don't have the systems of support that you talked about, whether it's through colleagues or whether it's through professors, your peers that you're, you're constantly doing this, you know, the mental gymnastics, you know, and feeling a little bit crazy. Yeah, I mean, I totally agree with you and I feel like you know you bring up this interesting point about how like our objects of study or our communities of study. And I think about how, you know, a lot of I think a lot of black folks experience black graduate students experience this sort of this tenetiveness or a hesitancy to name that they want to study, you know, black life or some or other aspects of like African American identity or African diaspora culture, anything like that, because we already know right there's already this, this knowledge that we're going to be thought of as less serious scholars that we're going to be you know, vanity projects, or, you know, like navel gazing or self interested, you know, identity based work that's not going to be as rigorous that's not going to, you know, it's not going to fit these paradigms for what is considered, you know, quality scholarship. And it's one of those things that I think white grad students and faculty really never have to think about or contend with, and you know, because if they're doing work on, you know, white or European populations well that's the assumption, right, the assumption is that that's the work you're doing. So you don't have to explain that or second guess it or think about it. And if you are doing work on minority communities, you also don't have to worry about it either because you're a white scholar so you're allowed to kind of do whatever you want. And when people are like, Oh, you're studying, you know, this Afro Brazilian community or you're studying, you know, black folks during civil rights movement. You know, people think that that's, you know, that person is, you know, an expert or an authority or that that person's going to bring some kind of, you know, critical esteem or value to that area in a way that you know, I think black scholars. You know, we don't, we don't get the benefit of the doubt in that regard, and we actually get more of a negative kind of reaction and pushback around, around that. And I think, you know, in keeping with sort of the line of reasoning or line of discussion around graduate students. I know that one of the things that happened at Penn State where I was a grad student. You know, I was getting my hair done by this African woman whose husband was a postdoc, and she was telling me that during the orientation for the African postdocs. They were told not to, not to be friend black Americans, that they should not be, you know, getting too involved with African American students in particular because I guess she had mentioned that somebody in the group. They were asked about, you know, black resource like resources for black folks and asked about like oh I heard there's a black graduate student union, you know, do postdocs engage with that. You know how does that work how could we reach out and find out more information about that at which point they were like oh that's just for black Americans like you don't want to be in that group. And so there is this, you know, here's this group on campus that is a staple of the campus that's like a community of support that is funded and promoted, you know, by different entities on campus and you have, you know, people still viewing that in a negative way and still and you know, advising African students not to engage in that space don't participate there because you'll be seen as a disruptor or don't participate there because, you know, the black, the black American community on campus is is remedial right like so that's like a space for them so that they can get, you know, support to do this work that you don't need because you're, you know, not coming from within this context. You don't have the same issues right. And so I think that was another really like wow kind of moment for me I just wasn't, you know, expecting that. Right, absolutely and it goes back to this, you know, this mental gymnastics that one has to perform when certain narratives are shared, you know, and so in connecting with sort of the narrative that you were exposed to that was shared with you. You know, I think about, you know, the extra work that it takes in order to undo, you know, these assumptions, right and so often the lots of these narratives are not true, you know, and particularly as it relates to communities. Communities of black people right so this this is starting to make me think of you know about the systemic nature of anti blackness and how these can be internalized by anyone. You know, and so I remember hearing these narratives. Myself, you know, just the fissures that or that create fissures across black, the black diaspora, you know, and, and so if if if we don't do the work to push beyond the narratives that were told. The question becomes, you know, how do we then internalize these negative messages as well, and to even extend into extend into extend the culture that we're talking about so within higher ed spaces. I recall an instance where I was questioned about where I thought that my work was going to be published. So the suggestion was, glory you might want to think about whether or not you want a tenure track job beyond graduate school. That might mean for you studying the subject matter that you're studying so race and specifically black people and which journals will accept your work. And so talk about a message, you know, that one has to do this mental gymnastics around I remember the moment that I needed to decide whether I was going to push through and do the work that I was really interested in, which is the message that I was being warned about. Right. Or whether I was, I was just going to take the safer route and study something like creativity, which is what my peers in my program, we're studying, you know, we're just going to study creativity, you know. Again, we get these, these messages that we have to really tease through and ask ourselves if, if that is true, and I will say that, you know, I did make make the decision to study black teachers, you know, black high school art teachers. And I have not had any trouble having my work published in the journals that I decided. And so it again, you know, sometimes it, we have to do a little bit of extra thinking about these things, you know, to ask ourselves particularly as it relates to, you know, black communities in the diaspora, if we're going to internalize these, you know, sort of warnings and be fearful about pursuing the work that we're really interested in doing with our communities. You know, I think, and this is such a really important and valuable point because it happens so often. Right. And I think that, you know, black students and black graduate students, you know, there's this a tremendous amount. I'm just saying you talk about the mental gymnastics and like these sort of subtle right hints or warnings right. And so I think, you know, all of that, you know, think about how much labor that creates right how much emotional visible labor on top of already being in grad school where it's stressful, where you're one of, you're just one sometimes right like I. And I think that that is another thing that is that's kind of shocking is sometimes you go into a space in academia and higher ed, and you're the only one, whether that's as a black undergrad, a black grad student, a black faculty member. And this is, you know, this is evidence, right of the anti black racism that continues in the spaces just the low number of us right and so it's this very, it becomes very taxing and very like, you know, stressful. And I think, you know, I've had white colleagues or professors say to me like gosh I can't believe that you know working with this really talented black student and you know she, you know, it's clear that she wants to work on this area right of, you know, that involves black identity in her. And but, you know, but then her proposal came in and it just said nothing about this. And, you know, I, I'm not really sure what to do because it seemed clear from our conversations and other work that was turned in it that she was going in this particular direction and now all of a sudden, it's just going to be about, you know, teachers in general, or it's just going to be about, you know, this this other group of people. They're confused and I have to have the conversation like you're just saying right now, where I have to tell that person well that's because that person doesn't feel authorized to continue for their real project for their serious dissertation research in that field. Right. It's safer to maybe explore exam and some of these things in course papers or in other projects, but they feel like they cannot advance that research agenda. And unless they have permission, and I hate to say it that way but that is because of the power hierarchies that exist in academia like I'm going to call it what it is. They want permission from their advisor or whomever to say like no you, you can do this and you should do this because this is what you're interested in this is what you're passionate about, and your contribution is valuable. And so then you get into this space of like the white professor advisor who's like uncomfortable with having to even have that conversation and not knowing how to have it which is why they have come to me to say like hey this happened when I did it what I do. And then when I tell them the answer. They're like, Oh, then it puts them in a position to have to sort of like think about this hierarchy to think about the history of what we're doing and and how the, you know how the Academy came to exist right who's been excluded, etc, etc. And then they're in sort of the uncomfortable position of having to authorize or, you know, give grant permission. And I'm like, look, don't. I mean, yes, that's what it is but also think of it as that you're supporting that person, right. Instead of like, Oh, I have to give permission well you're in the position of being the person's advisor, so you have to give permission and, but like let's not dwell on that let's think about the fact that by doing this, you're taking us off the person, you're helping them get closer to their true interest, and you're offering your support as they continue in this way what you're really doing is committing that hey, I'm going to support you. Why you do this work it's not you know just that Oh I think you should do it but I'm actually going to support you and help you find the journals and help you, you know combat. You know, the, any racism or imposter syndrome or other things that come your way in relation to this research trajectory. And I think that that, you know, is, is, is really valuable. It's really important. Absolutely. So I'll pause quickly just to remind folks to please use the q&a box as we're talking we're just kind of having trying to have more of an organic discussion here and so things that you're interested in or, you know, we might not get to but go ahead and put it in the q&a and we're happy to answer that we're going to save some time at the end. So yeah, just a reminder on that logistic. Yeah, so going back to that sort of idea of, you know, supporting students and recognizing this additional labor right and you know realizing that it's already stressful to be a grad student but then when you add, you know racism to it. There's there's even more. There's even more pressure. There's even more challenges. And I don't think and I mean the micro aggressions are just endless. And so that's, that's one of the things that I, you know, you just never get used to it at least I never get used to it and so I, you know, even coming here, it's been, it's been interesting I've gone to events where I on campus where I'm the only black person there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't get used to them. I mean because you know that's the, you know, that's sort of the the sometimes latent nature of the that violence, you know, because it adds up and it comes out of nowhere, you know, and it's not always intentional, you know, there are folks that, you know, I guess and it's often how a microgression, you know, was sometimes defined as that it's sometimes unintentional but when when you've experienced just a lot of them, it adds up and it could, you know, also impact us in the ways that we go inward, you know, and maybe want to check out particularly if we are the only one in our program. And I think it speaks to what you mentioned earlier is having the support and locating those communities of support, not only as a minoritized student, you know, racially minoritized individual. But it's also useful for, you know, those who are in our communities who have not had the same sort of, you know, racially minoritized experiences to, you know, put some tools in their toolbox, you know, so that they know if if, you know, you are advising a student who wants to, you know, do a particular type of research. And who is also having a very particular type of experience that you know who in the community, the university community, you can contact or put that student in contact with so that it is a supportive part of their experience. Yeah, it's more than just paying the lip service to say that one is an ally for a racially minoritized person, you know, I think Bettina Love articulates it beautifully when she calls, you know, calls these humans co-conspirators. I think of Brie Newsom and her scaling the pole to bring down that flag and I can't ever think of the other person that was a co-conspirator with her, it was a white man. Yeah, and he put his hand on the flagpole, the metal flagpole, you know, sort of in protection of her body as this officer was standing there with a taser. So this, you know, this co-conspirator realized that he probably would not get tased as a white male, you know, and actually physically putting his hand on the pole to protect, you know, her very vulnerable self is doing the work, you know, it's not necessarily maybe it doesn't manifest in the same way, but are you willing to put action, you know, into the work that one says that they want to do to be in support of black students or black faculty or, you know, colleagues? I completely agree. And I think one of the things too that I've become frustrated with over time because I get asked to do a lot of anti-blackness, anti-racist work. And one of the things that frustrates me, you know, and I've had to say to some units, well, you probably wouldn't have to call me to come here if you had more black people in your unit or if you were building better relationships, if you were outside your unit with other units in the college or with people in the community, then you could have different conversations. Then you could, you know, not, you would have options, right? Because other people are, first of all, there are other people that exist here. So you need to do a better job of knowing who's here. Number one, and number two, like the community, again, is important and you should be looking there as well, but also thirdly, like you need to cultivate black faculty and staff through a pipeline, through an initiative, through, you know, recruitment and retention measures. Like that needs to happen actively. And I know that, you know, certain colleges in the past are really trying to do a hard push for more black faculty or for more faculty of color in being very clear about like, okay, you know, any units who get approved to hire, we want you to know we're prioritizing diversity. And we've actually had, you know, white colleagues on this campus respond to that call for diversity or that prioritization of diversity by saying, so you're telling us we can't hire the best person. Instead of like, and so instead of looking at it as an opportunity, right, they're looking at it as prohibitive, because the best person in their mind is white, is not diverse. And now, since you said diversity, we can't hire who we want. You can't hire the best person when really what it is, is you can't hire who you'd be most likely to hire per se, right, like, and so I just, I find that, you know, really troubling, especially when it comes from, you know, unit leaders or department chairs who are in all white departments, which there are some here at the University of Arizona in 2021. Not some but many. And so, you know, we're, you look around your department and then that's your response when you're told that this should be a priority or consideration. And so I just think like, you know, when people say, oh, it's not racist, it's like, but it is right, it's just maybe not this somebody's not smashing your window in. Right, absolutely. But it's just as harmful. Absolutely. Well, this, you know, it speaks directly to what, whose knowledge and what types of knowledge are valued. You know, so when we're talking about, you know, what we consider as, you know, rigorous types or rigorous forms of research and I'm a qualitative and arts based researcher. And so we have lots of conversations in my classrooms, you know, about about the precarity of these types of methods in relation to what is more often privileged which is quant, you know, and statistics and it's not to do away with that but it's the fact that these other forms can be in conversation with quant, you know, you've got the numbers but there are stories with the numbers. And also, you know, when I think about ways of thinking about what constitutes data, you know, there are communities for which knowledge resides in orality. In storytelling, you know, and so when we're thinking about hiring people, or when we're thinking about inviting, you know, folks to contribute to a larger conversation, how are we thinking about what constitutes knowledge, you know, and that being, that being part of the ecosystem of racism, you know, when we're not considering forms of knowledge beyond the status quo as valued and valuable. Then we're really getting to, you know, sort of these more subtle forms that folks would not consider as part of a racist practice. Absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, I've definitely been in situations where people have made comments about experiential knowledges about more, you know, cultures that have that use, you know, different language practices or written language practices, right, folks who, you know, are very, they don't want to use a land acknowledgement, they don't see it as, you know, important or necessary. And so I think, you know, we, these are all forms that like anti-racism and anti-blackness take, and I think, you know, one of the more, and I think there's, you know, there are some really blatant ways, but then there again, there are these other ways in which, you know, I think some of it is hard because I don't, I would say that in some cases folks don't even know that they're perpetuating, you know, these issues. They're like thinking about, you know, for example, I feel that a lot of times black faculty, like some of the needs that we have, right, we're seen as being, we have to self-advocate a lot. So that's the other thing. I just will put that out there. We have to self-advocate a lot and a lot more than other people do. I know that most of the black faculty who I know, you know, have had either issues with retention or issues with getting things that they were told that they could get or have or were even promised in writing, like having to go back and find it, right, and produce receipts to hold people accountable for things that were standard that they were supposed to be getting, right. I know black folks struggle more with, you know, spousal hire, just different issues that I think, you know, a lot of our white colleagues don't deal with and don't know about either, right. And so I just, you know, when people want to say that they're an ally, it's like, you know, I need to know what you're doing, you know, beyond you have the black lives matter sticker on your water bottle. I need to know what you're doing to sort of speak up on behalf of racist things that are happening to your students or to faculty colleagues, right, or within, you know, your unit. And I think, you know, one of the things that was very appalling, you know, is to also know like we know the numbers and the numbers let us know that black women, you know, take longer to get promoted and tenured. And that not many of us even attain the rank of full professor. And in part, it's due to I think racial battle fatigue, the micro aggressions, the additional service and labor that goes into educating our white peers, and to dealing with white students, and to helping support the black and other marginalized students right it's like, so many layers, and then to only for us to do all that work, and then come to have our portfolio or our dossier come before committee that then attacks us for working on black people, and attacks us for not you know as much, which is not always the case, but sometimes, or in certain spaces right, like doing these really racist gatekeeping practices that have to be disrupted. And so, you know, the, the only way those things can be disrupted is by more of us like becoming associate professors with tenure becoming full professors and being in those spaces, but also white colleagues who call themselves allies, and the responsibility to step in and say, no, you know, I'm sorry but when you know so and so and up for tenure they have the exact same profile. And I've sat, you know, in different on different committees for 30 review and other things where you know the white candidate is a superstar, and they're amazing. You know, the person a color candidate with similar background and doing other and doing interesting and valuable work. It's just not even that person is seen as doing what they're supposed to do. And I'm like, but wait a minute. This person also did this this and this and if we're going to nominate this person for a president's early career award. Why are we not nominating this person as well. You know, and it's just, you know, you're the only one in the space though and then, and then you have to and even for me I find that I have to have a white person cosine. Once I raise it, if I'm the only one, I have to look around and hope that there's going to be an ally who's going to stand up and be like, oh I agree with Stephanie or like actually Stephanie that's a good point. I mentioned that because yeah we could write like promote both of these, these scholars or support them both in this way. And so I just think you know the anti blackness. In some ways it's really visible in our in our numbers, and you know in how we show up, but then in other ways there are these very systemic and ingrained kind of beliefs and practices that people don't don't stop to question. Absolutely. And then there's the the precarity of, you know, so if you're in a tenure track position, and you're still junior faculty. If you are the only one in your department in your program. The question becomes, do I speak up, you know, and if I speak up, do I make enemies by speaking up it's all of these, these things that metal gymnastics again. Absolutely, but you have to, you know, consider how you, how you navigate the space, you know, in hopes that you've come into an environment where like you said that there is at least one, you know person that can really, you know what it is that that you're having ideas about or challenges with. Yeah, there's so much Stephanie right. There's so much I mean the more I think about it I'm just like, we're just basically scratching the surface I know we're almost at the end of our time before we transition to q&a but there really is so much and I, I tell people all the time that you know I go to therapy and and the time is spent right with like it's 5050 between like my childhood and my job and being an academic right like these are the things that I'm constantly working through that are sort of you know just life long you know, because it's, it is, it is ongoing, it's not, there's not really an end point, you know, and there have been times maybe where I've had a sustained period where I haven't encountered any microaggression or any racism, and then, you know, you get a little bit comfortable and then it happens again, you know, and, you know, we haven't even begun to talk about, you know, the way that black folks are, you know, treated in teaching evaluations and the way that plays a role in promotion and tenure practices. You know, we have those colleagues who, you know are overtly unsupportive or, or just racist right and, you know, who won't won't have discussions, unwilling to have even, you know, talk about certain aspects of, of race, and now showing up in the department or the program or the curriculum. I mean there are many, many things that we will not get to cover today, but I, I'm really appreciative of this sort of this opportunity just to connect with you on this Gloria for us to talk about it. I always like being invited. But yeah, I'm happy to open it to, you know, conversation or questions. Yeah, same, same. And if I might, I'll offer a resource that, you know, both sadly and gladly, I came to as a graduate student and then returned to this resource. After I graduated and would, you know, sort of use it to inspire work and I'm sure Stephanie and probably others in the room have seen this book. And again, sadly, a book had to be created around, you know, black black academics and their survival in the academy. And so I've dropped it in the chat. So interesting that you pulled this book, Gloria, because this book was actually given to us at Penn State through the, they have, you know, they had support for black and underrepresented, you know, graduate students and so we have certain professional development and support that was available to us. And one of the things that they gave us was this book right away. And so it was definitely one that's super helpful. There are many other resources out there. I would say that probably one of the most effective acts of allyship that I had a white colleague do for me. When I was at Appalachian State University, which is one of the top 10 whitest schools in the country. It's in the mountains of North Carolina and that's where I was before I came here. And what I tell people all the time is that you just don't know where the good allyship is going to show up actually, and in that environment, I had amazing white colleagues. And so even though I was the only one, they were super vigilant about their commitment to anti racism. And so they were not I mean, even before I could ask for support, they were there providing support. And so this and so now we've organized and we're showing up, and we're writing a letter, you know, to our department chair, or we're being you know pro pro actively advocating, you know, in this way or that way. And they just were there with it and one of the really effective things that one of my colleagues did was he he did he led a group. He led a series of seminars, he's a white man on that were from presumed incompetent. Another really great book that looks at you know, anti blackness in the academy racism that you know scholars of color face. And so he led this this workshop for white administrators specifically, and for white full professors. You know, that they would could become aware of their behaviors, and, and their biases, and so that he can give really direct approaches and examples, not only what they were doing. But he had like sat in different, you know, faculty meetings in different spaces like took notes of things that people said and did, and then connected it directly, so that they couldn't escape right. Well, you know, we're talking about this because it happened in the book but Jim, I remember you said this on this day at the meeting and like just really call folks out. But of course you know he was a white man and he had tenure, but it's an example of how people can use their privilege, you know, to actually be an ally, and you know to actually advocate and I think to you know your point about junior faculty if you're the only one you're not tenured yet like how much can you speak up and you know what kind of risks are you able to take and I, I think of one of my gender women studies and African American studies professors at Penn State, who went on to be at UC Santa Cruz and sadly you know, is not is no longer with us, but you know in her time in the Academy Dr. Erin at white amazing black scholar feminist just incredible professor, you know, she told us, there's never going to be a good time to speak up. You're, you're a grad student and you can't speak up because your committee will won't approve your work. You're an assistant professor and you can't speak up because you don't have tenure, you're an associate professor now you can't speak up because you'll never get full. And she's like so there's never a good time. And so we have to understand that like, regardless of the tenure scenario that there's always going to be some obstacle or barrier or challenge that tries to silence us, and we have to transcend that. Absolutely. And, you know, I think we've been, we've been saying it in many ways, all along that one there's work involved from everybody, whether it's finding your communities of support, you know, whoever you are, you know so if you're a student finding other students finding, you know faculty that you can trust. If you are, you know, not of a minoritized group, doing the work of unpacking, you know, biases, you know, I think universities are now for better or worse being called, you know, to the carpet about, you know, inequities racialized inequities. And, and fortunately, unfortunately it caught the pandemic, you know, plus also the series of murders, you know, of black people that have always happened but you know that came to this critical, you know moment last summer. And that has kind of shaken things up a lot, you know, and having us really reckon with, reckon with the unhealed scars of this entire, you know, globe, really, I mean, you know, anti blackness is a global phenomenon. It really is. I mean, there are these color hierarchies in black and minority spaces, right, like so it's not just, I mean, again, it's it's about a proximity to whiteness and these other kind of, you know, political dimensions and identity pieces. You know, you're right that these most recent incidents in the racial justice movement and the way that social media has really played a role in visualizing and, you know, making more, you know, more salient these issues that have been going on. And I think that, you know, you're right that's been a huge part of the response I think, because when it wasn't as, you know, visible or readily accessible in a visual, you know, domain, I think people were able to more easily ignore it or deny it right and we now see that that's no longer possible. So we do have a question about our thoughts on diversity at the inclusion committee approaches that are a favorite. They're a thing in the academy. They are very exciting. People are excited to use these mechanisms. But I find you know, I don't know, I think it's a mixed bag right on the one hand it's better than doing nothing. But at the same time I mean how many of these, you know, reports end up, you know, in somebody's desk drawer, or, you know, not being you know they come with recommendations and you get thanked for your service but the recommendations are never implemented. And then two years later, it's another diversity equity committee, doing the same work, you know replicating essentially the work that the last committee formation did that never got implemented. So I'm in this like cycle in action. And so I would just warn that, you know, anybody who see who decides to serve in this capacity or on these committees, you know, needs to really. First of all, understand that it's a big time commitment. So if you kind of show up in the room and you don't feel like the folks that you're working with are actually going to be committed to getting something done to passing an agenda or calling for accountability. Resign. And if you know in a best case scenario, you get the right people who all have, you know, particular kind of energy, and a particular level of, you know, power and commitment, and then the committee can actually sometimes move the needle on certain things. But I think, you know, it's complicated because there are so many moving parts and there are a lot of there's a lot of turnover and shifting. And so it's hard because of, you know, the different, the different factors, but also, you know, diversity equity inclusion committee is, is a low hanging fruit, but everyone should have that minimally some version of that in their unit, like ensure that conversations are, are happening, I suppose. Yeah, I think it says, you know, it says, it says something that that we have to have this in the first place, right so that speaks to, you know, the ever present concerns of each of these areas, you know, and and also brings to question how people are defining these things like how, you know, we know that there's no silver bullet approach because racism is endemic. It is not trendy. It is time less, you know, I've heard lots of, you know, folks that say oh this is so timely. Like, well, no, no. This is time less, you know, we, we could have had this same conversation 60 years ago, 80 years ago, 10 years ago, you know, and so I have to ask what is it that we think we're doing when we bring these sorts of committees together. And if we're not attempting to have the structural conversation about how these structures were designed very specifically and what are the methods to undoing and interrupting these very, you know, endemic and structural frameworks. And how, how will things change, you know, it requires quite a bit of discomfort, you know, when we shake up a system, much like really does an insistence right I think there's also a point at which people like, Well, you know, I said what I could or I said my piece at the meeting or I did whatever. And then I just felt like, you know, once so and so brought up to like it just wasn't going to, you know, wasn't going to go any further and it's like, but you need to persist. Right. And you need to insist. Right. And there's not a, there's not a point at which, you know, you withdraw when you're committed in a certain way and I think that that that's the thing it's like well no matter, you know what this other person said about this candidate or whatever. It's, if you're trying to do anti racist work, you know, it's your job to continually disrupt, you know, this, this other narrative or discourse that's happening in a space I mean I really hate the conversation about, well fit this person just not a good fit, like fit is the gender in these academic spaces right it's like, well this candidate does you know has this to offer and this candidate has this to offer and you go back and forth back and forth. And what ends up happening is you say well these are both excellent candidates was black ones white they're both great. We actually need them both, but we can only have one. And then people say, well, I just think, and there's a better fit than Chantay right like, and that and then that's it then everybody's just like, you know, and so I feel like you know, it's my job since I have tenure and other folks right who are committed to some kind of privilege, whether that's race or rank or whatever. It's our job to say, but why. Why is this this white woman a better fit. Right. If we have a determined that they have equal qualifications and credentials and they're both phenomenal. And why is this person a better fit, what makes them a better fit. You know, and we have to push for that conversation. Like you said, it requires discomfort, it requires vigilance. And, you know, I think there are there are a lot of you know white folks who are not willing to to get to that level right. And those folks I say well every day we have to be at that hyper vigilant level as black scholars as black women in the Academy and like dealing with and deflecting and processing microaggressions, racist colleagues, you know, all of all of the things. So if we have to go through that and you want to call yourself an ally, then you need to be okay with pushing through with some of these, you know, questions or tactics strategies right in these other settings and spaces. I mean, I know we're short on time there was a last question about how academic units can better support black graduate students who are experiencing micro and macro aggressions. What are you, what are your thoughts on that lawyer I want you to have the final Wow, yeah. So wow, you know when we talk about structures. Again, I have to reiterate that there is no silver bullet, you know, and so one has to ask where one wants to enter into the interruption, you know, of patterns, you know, so if patterns of the inability to retain students of color, you know, or black students is, you know, sort of the issue at hand one has to look at, you know, the community and the ecosystem. If you are the only one what is going to encourage you to stay and if you have no sense of who else what other black students, you know are in the community again it goes back to, you know, who, who, who are the resources on campus on campus the human resources that students can be connected with. And what messages are students receiving, you know, I think this ties really well into everything that we've been talking about, you know, is the is the students research considered valuable. You know, is their method considered valuable. How can, how can those who want to be allies or co conspirators reimagine what these students already bring with them, and it might require reimagining the culture of a field or a discipline. I have friends who, you know, I was in grad school with who were parts of different programs, and it required selecting a committee member who may happen to be in a position of power whether it be through tenure, or whether it be through their skin privilege, that they could support that student in their, in their defense of their research proposal, you know, to sort of check the other committee members that may not have supported them otherwise so there's so many different. I think points of entry that that we can interrupt sort of these anti, you know, these racist practices, you know, subconsciously these biases that we have, you know just to start undoing the harm. And then they do like even beyond that it's just like you know, check in. In the same way that you check in with other students, you know, like, you know you seem stressed. Are you good. I haven't heard from you in a while or you didn't, you know, you didn't show up at this event and I'm, you know, in the past you have been at these types of events I know she weren't here. Is everything all right, you know, like, just checking in and you know you don't have to assume that something's wrong but it's okay to check in and that that affirms that you notice right that that student is not there, or that you're wondering if they are struggling in some way in the program. I encourage people like some of it's not as hard right there are really difficult structural things but then there's also just sort of like the human engagement of like, you know, an ethics of care practice and ethics are, you know, especially for your students of color minoritized students, and also again like I was saying in the case of the two junior professors. When you're thinking about students that would be great for this award or this scholarship for this research opportunity. Make sure that you check that the students in that conversation are not all students who look the same, or who espoused one particular identity. Make sure that we're talking about all these other students, and I know that some people. I was a single mom when I was in grad school be well, you know, it wasn't it wasn't race definitely just like everyone knows you're so busy because you're a single parent I'm like. That's for me to figure out. You don't get to decide for me that my single parent status means I can't do this research or I can't be part of this opportunity. I might have a babysitter. I might have you know family who's willing to watch these kids you don't know. You know, and, and I've tried to take it upon myself to be that professor who especially when there's a student parent. I'm like we should consider so and so when people raise those concerns I tell them my own story of like wow I got overlooked because of assumptions and that. And if we know for a fact that that student doesn't have support as a single parent well what could we do to provide that support so that that student can have that opportunity. You know, I mean I think it really does require. A lot of, you know, a lot of commitment. Yeah, yeah, I think that's a beautiful way to, you know, sort of put a pause or put a pin. I mean because this conversation can go can go on forever. But, you know, like you said Stephanie I'm just glad to have the space to share with you know you to share with everyone on today to just sort of, you know crack open. A part only just, you know, just a teeny tiny. We've only scratched the surface here. Yeah, yeah. There will be more conversations and I hope folks will look for you know additional resources to continue to educate themselves and to grow. Thank you so much for inviting us. Thank you both so much for this really interesting conversation, bringing some really important points to the floor. And thank you everybody for your engagement. Thank you for your comments in the chat, really appreciated. Thank you also to campus weeks for sponsoring this event Department of German studies we really appreciate the time and and support financially that went into this also Thank you so much, Gloria Wilson and Stephanie trauma and Robbins, both professors at the University of Arizona we really appreciate it hearing your perspective and I'm taking the time to join us today. Thank you. Thank you everybody. Thank you all.