 Okay, that's a good one. Okay, so what do you think? Oh, okay. Oh, that's a good one. That's a good one. That's a good one. Okay, so there's two years. That's a good one. Yeah. That's a good one. That's a good one. All right. We're excited. Is that okay? Yeah, that's pretty good. There's yours. Why aren't you looking over this? You know how to get it full screen right? I can do that. All right, so. I think everybody's okay now. Awesome. Thank you so much. Good afternoon. Welcome to the Durham Planning Commission. The members of the Durham Planning Commission are here. The members of the Durham Planning Commission have been appointed by the City Council and the County Board of Commissioners as an advisory board to the elected officials. You should know that the elected officials have the final say on any issue before us tonight. If you wish to speak on an agenda item tonight, please go to the table to my left and sign up to speak. For those of you who wish to speak, please state your name and your address clearly when you come to the podium. Please speak clearly and into the microphone. Each side, those speaking in favor of an item and those speaking in opposition to an item will have 10 minutes to present each side. The time will be divided among all persons wishing to speak. Finally, all motions are stated in the affirmative. So if a motion fails or ties, the recommendation is for denial. Thank you. Can I have the roll call, please? Mr. Alter, Mr. Brine, Mr. Busby, Ms. Freeman, Mr. Goat, Mr. Gibbs, Mr. Harris, Mr. Hornbuckle, Ms. Hyman, Mr. Johnson, Mr. Kenshin, Mr. Miller, Mr. Van, Mr. Whitley. Thank you. Are there any adjustments to the agenda? Please recognize Mr. Johnson. So we actually do not have any adjustments to the agenda except, well, there is an info item that we may want to go over and see under new business that was a caregiver from last meeting. I understand there was some brief discussion about the development plan guidelines at the end of that meeting. So we may revisit that just for a few minutes tonight. And as far as reordering, there's no reorder of the agenda. And I do want to note that apparently there was a clerical typo in the hard copy agenda you have may have Mr. Harris listed as chair, but that was corrected and a corrective version was emailed out to everyone. That's what I've been advised anyway. And I know that the website was corrected as well. So I wanted to make sure that Ms. Hyman knew that we do recognize that she is the chair. Thank you. We want to also recognize Commissioner Freeman. The next item, approval of minutes and consistency statements for the December 13, 2016. He does. Madam Chair, I'll make a motion that we approve the minutes and the consistency statements from the December 2016 meeting. Second. Motion by Commissioner Busby that we approve the minutes and consistency statement for the December 2016 meeting and second by Commissioner Miller. All in favor of this motion, let it be known by raising your right hand. All opposed. Thank you. We have a second public hearing plan amendment with concurrent zoning map and change request. We'll have our staff report. Item A, which is 4,000 Dan Vieri Lane. Item number A, 1-6-0-0-0-1-0 and Z-1-6-0-0-0-1-5. Thank you. Good evening, Kyle Tia with the planning department. I can affirm that a legal notice requirements have been executed in accordance with state and local law and affidavits are on file for such in the planning department for the cases being heard tonight. Zoning case and plan amendment case A-16-0-0-0-1-10 and Z-16-0-0-0-1-10 and Z-16-0-0-0-1-10 and Z-16-0-0-0-1-10 and Z-16-0-0-0-1-10 and Z-16-0-0-0-0-1-10 and Z-16-0-0-0-0-1-10 and Z-16-0-0-0-0-0-1-10 and Z-16-0-0-1-0-1-10 being heard as a city case because there is an associated annexation case with this project which is BDG-16-0-0-0-6 the zoning request is from residential suburban 20 to plan development residential 10 or PDR 10.000 The planning request is from low medium-density residential to medium-density residential the acreage for the zoning map change amendment request is for seven point five to that is because the fact that the area was is currently listed as recreation and open spaces being preserved as such and the red the zoning map changers flex that area is being preserved as well as proposed use for the property is 95 units multi-family development site is located at 4,000 Dan you blame at the intersection of Ben Franklin Boulevard and Dan you blame in the in the suburban tier and FJB watershed overlay protection district UDO section three point four point seven requires that all plan amendments be revoked reviewed against the four criteria on this slide and is outlined in the staff report will give additional information on each one of these criteria and how it meets it in the following slides planning staff has reviewed the project and finds that the project is consistent with policies outlined in this slide and in staff report the request in a medium density residential designation will be consistent with the existing land use uses in the area the property is surrounded by residential uses to the north vacant property to the east in south and commercial and assisted living to the west the request of medium density residential would be compatible with other land uses districts in the area the proposed change in future land use designation would allow for development similar to property we've already developed in the area in the area for which the amendment is requested seven point five two acres and is is a sufficient safe in size to accommodate development in the proposed medium density residential land use category and as such it is consistent with the four criteria again as outlined in your staff report and on the slide in this slide gives a brief summary of essentially what we just talked about this site does satisfy the criteria for the PDR zoning district is highlighted in this on this slide in the staff report there's a single family residence located on the site however the property is primarily wooded the southern section of this property is located within the FEMA floodway in that area is being preserved this site meets the requirements for a development plan for a PDR zoning district the proposed conditions page commits to two access points in a general location of tree protection areas the intensity proposed for this project as stated previously was 95 multifamily units to access points are proposed however the eastern access point is noted as access connection to couple the street if 91 or more units are constructed impervious surface is limited to 70 percent tree coverage is limited 20 percent graphically the project commits to the location of tree preservation areas and stream buffers location of access points in building and parking off load there are a number of text commitments provided with this this application they are outlined in this slide and they are to construct a road to connect to Copley farm after the 31st certification of occupation prior to the issuance of the certification of occupancy subject to the termination to go triangle and go Durham on the need for transit related improvements at the time of site plans submit submittal constructed concrete pad bus shelter slash bus shelter to go Durham slash go triangle specifications along the east side of Dan you blame adjacent to the site a 30-foot landscape buffer at 60 percent capacity will be provided along the northern property about line and property the project will consist of 95 multifamily residential staff terms as progress would be consistent with the conference of plan and other adopted plans and policies should the plan amendment be approved staff recommends the approval of the plan amendment on the consistent on consideration of the adopted plans compatibility impacts and dimensions thank you and staffs failed for any questions thank you I have one individual who has signed up to speak Mr. Dan jewel good evening folks thanks for allowing me to speak tonight I am Dan jewel president of culture jewel Thames landscape architecture land planning firm located 111 West Main Street actually here on behalf my business partner Ken Coulter who passed away about seven years ago and his wife Marlene Coulter to request the rezoning of this property actually with me here tonight is Martin Coulter one of their sons who is a intern landscape architect been with our firm for many years and has actually done much of the work on this this zoning request let me explain this Ken and Marlene purchased this property about 30 years ago and Ken often related the story of how he outmaneuvered Gary Hock in acquiring it as a blocking move you see Gary wanted to expand independence part to the east across Dan you blame and eventually extend Ben Franklin Boulevard all the way to Old Oxford Road Ken though had different ideas if any of you know Ken or remember Ken he was one of the founders of the Triangle Land Conservancy and the Triangle Greenways Council back in the early 1980s Ken wanted to protect Cub Creek which is actually the common name of the creek that runs along the eastern side of this project I think it's referred to on most maps with a the very sexy name you know tributary B but Cub Creek is a little bit easier name to remember and actually if you look on the Greenway master plan it does refer to it is is Cub Creek. Ken had walked the Cub Creek corridor many many times and was impressed with the fact that it was an intact riparian corridor of great biological diversity with only one street crossing in the two and a half miles that it travels from Carver Street all the way up to the Eno River where it joins the Eno right across the street from the Pennies Bend Nature Preserve if any of you have been up there which is one of the one of the jewels in our on our our preservation in Durham. Remember that this acquisition 30 years ago was before we had riparian buffer requirements and floodplain development rules. Ken was so adamant that this stretch of Cub Creek be preserved this riparian corridor that he and Marlene bought the property and sat on it for 30 years. Marlene is now approaching 85. She's decided this time to sell the property and she has two primary goals. One is to create some value on the property given that they did purchase it and have been sitting on it for 30 years. She's looking at it to bolster her retirement. I know that's not part of your consideration tonight but I wanted to put in a perspective of the motives that they acquired this property 30 years ago. And the other is to rezone it with a development plan that guarantees preservation of the more sensitive areas on this site and also will prevent any development happening between this site and where the creek goes off site directly to the east. So it's time to rezone it and market it. But to what is Kyle explain their townhomes to the north. A two story medical office building and a three story senior living facility across Dan you blame with properties owned respectively. Oh and I PDR eight and PDR 10 south and west of this property are the bottom lands and floodplain associated with Cub Creek. So they make a very nice natural dividing line natural buffer to the properties on the the other side of Cub Creek which are actually even zone zone residential. If you look at the zoning map for Old Oxford Road it's all industrial over on that side. The Carver Street extension I believe has started construction and soon going to be going through from the intersection of Daniel Blaine all the way over to Old Oxford Road meaning the southern tip of this property will actually be at what will become a fairly significant street intersection. What we think is appropriate then and are proposing here is a modest size multifamily project of a maximum of ninety five units which does equate to a PDR 10 good round number that is consistent with the land use patterns to the west and we feel as an appropriate transition to the natural areas to the east. Yeah just to let you know at the neighborhood meeting we had last spring the primary concerns that we heard from the twenty one people that attended it was pretty good attendance had to do with traffic buffering of the townhouse neighborhood adjacent to the north maximum heights of the buildings and provide a place for school kids who currently stand on the east side of Danube in the mud and in the grass waiting for the school bus to pick them up and take them to school. There will of course be additional traffic any any development will create additional traffic but the staff report does show that Danube is currently well under capacity for daily trips and with the Carver Street extension that's now under construction we feel there'll be plenty of capacity on Carver as well and even though there's not a landscape buffer requirement on the northern property by the UDO at the request of those neighbors who attended the neighborhood meeting we are committing to a 30 foot buffer landscape buffer of 60 percent opacity up against that that property line to preserve them from some some some level of protection. We're also committing to a maximum building height of 35 feet and of course we'll construct a sidewalk along our Danube frontage and the bus station that Kyle mentioned the bus stop not only providing a safe place for the kids to stand when they're waiting for the school bus to pick them up but with this frontage they'll when it's built they'll be over a half a mile of continuous sidewalk from here to the north on Danube Lane which is is pretty impressive in Durham where we have a lot of safe sidewalks to know where and also there'll be a safe sidewalk connection to Ben Franklin there are actually two existing go triangle bus stops on Ben Franklin only about a hundred yards to the west of this project so trans public transportation is available very close by which is one of the other reasons that we think some multifamily is appropriate use here. So on behalf of of Marlene and my old partner Ken we respectfully ask for your support of this request and a positive positive recommendation to the City Council. Thank you so much. Thank you. I do not have other individuals who have signed up to speak to this issue so I am going to close the public hearing at this time and give commissioners an opportunity to ask questions. Are there commissioners who would like to speak? Jua. Yes Reverend Whitley. You identified that there's a bus stop would you would you with the developer be willing to put a bus shelter? Sure. Yeah we'll make that as a committed element. A standard city bus shelter. Thank you. Are the other commissioners who would like to speak have a staff comment? Yeah is that in addition to your text commitment that already states that you're going to be doing a pad essentially and shelter according to go Durham and go triangle? Yes the committed element says pad correct? I believe that is correct. Yes so we will amend that committed element we'll work out the exact wording but the staff to say a pad with a standard bus shelter. It actually does say pad slash bus shelter. Sounds like we may be covered. Thank you. Commissioner Gibbs. Good evening. I have another question specifically about the bus shelter and the pad. Specifically about this one I'm assuming that there will be an accessible bus shelter handicapped accessible and also a handicapped accessible path of travel to that may seem like an unnecessary question but I just want to bring it up specifically for this and then I have one more question. So my experience is that bus shelters and sidewalks do need to be handicapped accessible. Mr. Judge with transportation might want to clarify that if I've spoken out of turn but yes it would be her intent to make it accessible. I'm sure you would and not to expand on that while we're on that subject very quickly and I can mention this later but all the bus shelters and bus the pads and bus shelters that are being proposed in the city eventually the county they they will be handicapped accessible is that correct. We have references in different parts of the UDO but I just wanted to ask that question of staff is that standard procedure an accessible shelter and an accessible path of travel. Bill Judge with transportation all new bus pads and shelters the specifications on the pad and the shelter itself are handicapped accessible. The route of travel is compliant I guess with the current federal law for instance if Dan you blame is that a 8% grade well that doesn't mean that the sidewalk follows at 8% grade we're not unfortunately going to be able to go back and and regrade the sidewalk to make that necessarily accessible for the entire route of travel but basically the sidewalk grade has to stay within 2% of the street grade. Sure and I guess I should have added that off-use expression as as feasible. My other question is about the bicycle lanes I don't know if it's Rick the Bicycle Commission is asking for bicycle lane is this project going to provide that and is there another is there more bicycle lane to be connected to and the reason I ask is why provide a bicycle lane unless it is something that's going to connect to existing bicycle lanes. I don't know the answer to the latter part of your question in other words I don't know if there are existing bicycle facilities on Dan you to the north in the south I can't answer that question but my understanding is that if they if the adopted bicycle plan in Durham shows that there need to be bicycle facilities along the frontage of this prop project property we will be required to do that and that will be confirmed at our site plan. Good enough and I this looks like to me a really good plan and I know it will it will be done in the right way. I'm familiar with Kenneth and and I know the his company and I know how how much they value this kind of land and they would want to preserve things and I think it will be done in the right way so I would like to voice my support for this. Thank you. Yes Commissioner Harris. Yes I have a question for staff. On the cover page you have the drainage basin Jordan Lake should that be Falls Lake would have to look it up but you may be correct it may be a typo. I mean if it go into the you know then I think that would be false. Good catch if it says that we're definitely not in the Jordan basin that would take a lot of piping and pumping. Yeah it's a typo. And there's David since the creek stops right. Let's take the bus. Thank you. Any other questions. Yes Commissioner Miller. So I have a question for staff. I'm very concerned that if we pass this rezoning that we'll have one single family lot zoned RS 20 on the west side of Danube Lane and that just seems like bad planning to me. What can we do about that because I'm looking at attachment to and the way the land in the area is zoned now. There's a pan handle that crosses Danube Lane and comes across over there. It's not included in the rezoning of course under our UDO it cannot be because this is a PDR zone and the culture family doesn't own this piece of property. So but it leaves us with something that is even arguably a kind of a negative or reverse spot zone. I don't think those are necessarily illegal but I'm not sufficiently haven't looked at the case law recently to see what's happened since the mid 1980s 90s. It just seems to me it's undesirable to have a single lot zoned single family when it would be surrounded by zoning categories allowing more intense uses. Yes I'm referring to the panhandle that comes across in the middle of the PDR eight. So the whole section down there below this property is actually also zoned RS 20. Right. So it's the one of the few north of East Carver Street that is RS 20 but the ones that are further down that street or RS 20 and the ones on the other side of East Carver also RS 20. I realize that but my question is is if we grant this rezoning request we will isolate a single lot on the west side of Danube is RS 20 will have no connection to any other RS 20. That's and that gives me pause. If this map is correct right there. Yeah which parcel the one I'm talking about. It's less than a half an acre. It's one RS 20 lot half an acre if it's conforming. I'm just guessing that it conforms. So there you are correct. There is one RS 20 lot on that side of the street. However since it's not part of this request there's nothing we can really do about it at this time. Okay and I have a couple of questions for the developer. Why are we asking for PDR 10. Why is that important. The the folks that that are going to be trying to sell this property and the users that they are thinking about of course not committing to that right now wanted to get as close to a hundred units as possible. I told them we were not going to get to a hundred units and it's actually quite possible realistically at the end of the day that we're going to end up with 90 units because who in their right mind is going to build that back road across a creek out to Carver street to pick up five extra units. But the diet already been cast originally we had shown our second driveway connection out on Dan you closer to Carver Street. But NCDOT did not like that and it was not required if you're fewer than 90 units. That's that's exactly right. But we had we were trying to get as close to 95 as possible so was why why we are a hundred is possible which is why we are at 95. Okay. That's an answer but it's not very satisfying. It's not it's an answer is what it is. That's right. So how tall will these buildings be in order to achieve that. Because your actual building footprint once you exclude the the creek property is fairly small. Maximum of 35 feet. So three stories is all you could do in 35 feet. I much impervious surface we're going to have on this piece property. Well you could have up you could have up to 70 percent. Okay. And how where are we going to park cars. None of this is on the development plants. Help me understand. And there's there's no developer yet. Realistically there's there's no developer. Mrs. Colter is not a developer. Right. I understand yes. So a project of that density you could you could lay that out in surface park it or there could be a situation where some cars duck under some of the buildings. Okay. That's all the questions that I have. I do have at some point want to make a general comment about the project. Okay do we have other commissioners who would like to speak commission or free men. Just just to highlight for that RS 20 lot to say that there's an assisted living facility there and they use both sides of that lot is open space so just so that it's not blurry but that's clear. Okay Commissioner Miller. So I oppose the plan amendment and the rezoning in this case simply because the density is too high. Right now we have a logical boundary between on the future land use map between development intensities in Danube Blaine on the east side it's RS 20 which is two units an acre and PDR 4.3 in a mixed project of single family units in townhouse units. This is the Lillington and Minnesota area on the other side there's office institutional PDR 8 PDR 10 for the same reason that I was concerned about what we were doing on Barbie Road. I don't want to do I don't want to do it here either is which is bring what I think is an inappropriate toehold across the logical boundary which is Dan you as it was Barbie in the other case if this was a request to rezone this property to something like PDR 5 or even 6.8 I might go with it but PDR 10 seems to me not a very good thing to do and it requires a change to the future land use map and when I vote to change the future land use map it has to be logical it has to make sense this doesn't make sense to me I would prefer a rezoning here that didn't require a plan a plan amendment and unfortunately this case does require it so I'm going to be voting against it. Thank you are the other comments are commissioner commissioner goes thank you. I do appreciate the comments from commissioner Miller and I can understand the viewpoint I would say though that this this particular piece is impacted by the stream and so you know at a lower density I can understand you know PDR 8 next to PDR 8 I can understand why that might be more agreeable however at PDR 10 I mean the develop a land on this piece is still not going to yield you the you know the total amount of I mean that's what I would think anyway so I think that PDR 10 for given the impact the of the natural elements on this parcel I think that PDR 10 or I mean something more dense than PDR 8 is actually you know it's not going to be out of it's inconsistent with what's already in place here with the PDR 8 and the PDR 10 and even you know looking at this PDR 4.3 to the north I mean there seems to be a mix of lots in there and a lot of these tiny lots are right up against this parcel I mean I I understand and appreciate the concern I do think that it is a reasonable request and I think I would I'm ready to support it are the other comments of the commissioners commissioner Johnson and then commissioner al-Turk thank you thank you chairwoman I just put since I'm so I'm in general I'm inclined to to like what's been presented but I will highlight so to commissioner ghost's point I wouldn't just argue against the higher density in the sense that it's not totally illogical but I will also echo comments made by commissioner Miller in the sense that this site parcel is relatively small in regards to what's been proposed from a density standpoint and so the parking would be something that like we can't see now but you know how can you make that work with so many it's a pretty good number of units on a relatively small parcel of property so the question becomes like can that actually from a functional standpoint from a site plan standpoint and from someone who like I'm on the development side when I'm from in the real estate space I understand that there are constraints and limitations when you're working with particular property sites in which you're trying to accomplish other outcomes in regards to you know the you know the environmental pieces and etc etc and so that's something I want to raise is I'm actually on the fence a little bit right now but I think that it is worth noting in regards to how this actually comes to fruition if this was approved and commissioner Al Turg thank you chairwoman I just have a question for staff I mean the Criterion B that's in the UDO I I mean you say that this application and this development would be compatible or complementary with you know the surrounding developments but two of the I mean to the east and to the south like it's been pointed out or vacant wreck and open space so how do you make that consideration when you know to the north you have something that's low medium and to the west it is medium so I guess at what point would you say that it's not compatible with the surrounding areas we'll give the staff a minute to respond so that standard does not require it to match existing it just but once it stays in similar lines and it does not jumping to the highest in the area and it's not jumping to the lowest in the area it's staying right in the middle and there is other medium density residential in that area just so the presence of one you know development to the west that's a 10 or 8 would be enough to make it not in all circumstances but in this case because the fact that it's in the middle and it's not the low end and it's not the extreme high and there is another pdr 10 sure south as well right so it's because the fact that it's not extremely higher than anything else not extremely lower than anything else it's kind of right there in the middle okay and it matches with that medium as well so if it was in another search instance where this medium maybe not but in this case because the fact that it's in that middle ground is why it's why we view it that way in this case okay thank you I can I'm just make a general comment that's unrelated to this particular point yes okay thank you I just want to point out in attachment six the statement of justification I'm under to see the one of the issues you mentioned that the mentioned is the crime to the south or you know some and this is I mean this is not a question for you necessarily just a general comment I'm the and just to make it clear to the to those in the room the idea that because there are some crime this would negatively affect home sales and therefore we would you know this this makes sense for a multifamily development I'm uncomfortable with making development you know zoning changes based on this particular criteria or criterion part of it is I I'm worried that that would this would segregate and we would we could potentially say well you know because there's some crime here we should only have multifamily rental units rather than first you know homes for sale so I'm just this gender general comment to other commissioners that and it's not necessarily something that I will I'm not vote against just because of this but comment thanks is there a staff response to that yeah I just wanted to clarify what he's referring to attachment six six is the justification statement from the actual applicants it is not actually the staffs recommendation yeah I didn't mean to did I say staff I don't think you mentioned what I just want to clarify okay thank you right you really didn't identify it so we have one of the commissioner would like to to speak I'll recognize commissioner Freeman and then I see Mr. Gibbs would also like to add a comment so let's so I just I just want to ask Mr. Jewel a question regarding the project noting the size of the lot and then or the property and then recognizing that there is such a large area covered by the floodplain do you think that a PDR 8 would be sufficient for that area or you think that's just undoable again you know we're we're talking a difference of 16 units from PDR 8 to PDR 10 that doesn't seem like a lot from a development standpoint it is a lot from a financial standpoint and again remember the the cultures of own this property for many years and they bought it for altruistic altruistic means I will continue to repeat that but and I think this gets back to Commissioner Johnson's question 10 units to the acre is not dense it's called medium density residential for a reason we have designed apartment projects in Durham and elsewhere upwards of 25 units to the acre that had all surface parking in other words parking lots with with building so this is this is about that half that so is this density pushing the limit on this this parcel not by any any means and in my experience and I think that just the general comment is to say that recognizing that this parcel is in such close proximity to Oxford Manor my concern becomes what happens next because all of those parcels I mean I pass through this area often and all of the parcels that are near it are I mean they have the highest potential for a developer coming in and thinking that there should be more apartment complexes in the area based on the development that you're doing on this small lot and it leans it I mean it pretty much pushes me to lean away from developing that that section and such density such a density I just want to make sure thank you Commissioner Gibbs well I guess we're gonna cover the whole spectrum I like the density proposed at least it gives you the flexibility of working up to that but to have a variety in this neighborhood and to me adds character to it and that's just my own personal design feel for this but I I think it could be a good project as far as the crime in the other section that's that's for the seller to contend with but it may help but that's another matter I just like the the variety of densities in this area and that's that's all I have thank you Commissioner Gibbs the chair will entertain a motion at this time madam chair in framing my motion I have a question for the staff and I put it because we have to let me I'll put the question to the chair we have a plan amendment and a zoning case we only had really one staff report do you want two votes or one vote two votes then if I may madam chairman with regard to the plan amendment I move that we send plan amendment case a 16 0 0 0 1 0 forward to the city council with a favorable recommendation second I have a motion to send the plan amendment case number 8 1 6 0 0 0 1 0 forward to the city council with a favorable favorable recommendation all in favor of this motion I'd like to have a roll call mr. Al Turk nope mr. Busby miss Freeman no mr. Ghosh mr. Gibbs mr. Harris miss Hyman mr. Johnson mr. Kenshin yes mr. Miller mr. Whitley motion carries 8 to 3 the chair will now entertain a motion to for the zoning map change request madam chairman I move that we send case z 16 0 0 0 1 5 forward to the city council with a favorable recommendation second motion by commissioner Miller that we send the zoning map change request item number z 1 6 0 0 0 1 5 forward with a favorable recommendation second by commissioner Busby all of the favor of this motion we will again have a roll call mr. Al Turk no no mr. Busby hi miss Freeman mr. Ghosh mr. Gibbs mr. Harris miss Hyman mr. Johnson mr. Kenshin yes mr. Miller mr. Whitley motion carries 8 to 3 let's move to the next item public hearing zoning map change request yancy property item z 1 6 0 0 0 2 5 staff report please and may I have a list of individuals who have signed up to speak good evening again Kyle Taylor of the planning department we're presenting zoning case z 16 0 0 0 25 yancy property the applicant for this case is James Tucker this case just like the last is being reviewed under the city's jurisdiction because there is an associated annexation case with this which is BDG 16 0 0 0 13 the request is from residential rural to plan development residential 3.1 7 0 the acreage is 47.01 acres the proposed uses for 149 lot single family subdivision site is located at 720 7218 Leesville road in the suburban tier and the airport overlay a 60 this site satisfies the criteria for the PDR district as highlighted in this slide and in the staff report the site is encumbered by a stream wetlands and riparian buffer a majority of the site is currently used as farmland farmland I should say designated as farmland this project meets the requirements for a development plan for the PDR zoning district the proposed conditions commits to four access points and general location of tree preservation areas as well as a stream crossing the intensity for this project is 149 residential single family units for existing site site access points impervious surface limitation of 70 percent tree coverage of 13.45 percent this is due to an agriculture exemption that's allowed by the ordinance a location of tree preservation areas and stream buffer location of access points and location of potential stream crossings or graphic commitments there are a number of text commitments for this project as well they include the proposed belt will be limited to a single family residential uses minimum lot size for new single family residential lot shall be 3,500 square feet construction of an east west collector street to city of Durham standards as a continuous public street between site access one and two construct a westbound left turn lane with adequate storage and appropriate taper on Leesville road at site access to a minimum of four feet of additional asphalt in addition to the proposed right of way improvements will be provided for the full frontage of the site along the south side of Leesville road the additional asphalt widening will be provided to allow for a bicycle lane dedicating additional 10 feet of right of way for the frontage of the site along Leesville road site is consistent with the future land use maps which designates this area's low density residential staff is determined the prosal is consistent with comprehensive plan in the policies outlines on this slide and in the staff report and staff terms of the request is consistent with comprehensive plan in the policies ordinances thank you staffs bill for any questions thank you I have two individuals who have signed up to speak for the first individual is Jared Eden's evening Jared Eden's with Eden's Landcourt I here represent my client James Tucker appreciate your time this evening I'll try to be brief as you know this area we've had a lot of reasonings come before you over the past few years in this area this is the Dell web neck of the woods near Briar Creek got a lot of development going on there the city has invested I think it's upwards of 15 to 20 million dollars in a creek pump station for this part of the world for this entire basin so density and redevelopment here is encouraged in my opinion any new project that comes in including this one is going to pay a fee to the city of Durham for this project of about seventy two hundred dollars per unit what not they'll actually go towards infrastructure improvements that's required from the the rule that council passed a year and a half two years ago so again development here we have a hundred forty nine single family units you have a great product mix in this area if you look at this part of Durham near Briar Creek you have apartments you have lots of town homes you have single family you have starter homes you have high level you've got Dell web with retirement community it's a great place to live this is a great parcels if you've ever been to it it's high and dry it's gonna be a very nice project when we're done I appreciate your support tonight thank you thank you I also have Steve Sykes my name my name is Steve Sykes and I live at 7015 Leesville Road it's the joining property to the Yancey product project it's a farm that's been in our family since the 30s it's a really nice piece of property that we probably will develop one day my concern is the easements of sewage and the new Briar Creek Parkway extension and where they will be located the plan is for it the the Briar Creek Parkway my understanding is to come right down our southside property line to join the Nancy the antsy project over to the Dell web or the M&I Homes project that's my understanding now the sewage the sewage side of that is been proposed to us to run down the middle of our property and divide it and we're we're opposed of losing that amount of property to right a ways for a road as well as sewage and I just I really encourage the city to put the sewage line down the street down the new road that extends those that runs down the south side of our property versus running it down the middle of our property and us losing quite a bit of right away that's my only concern about this this evening I hope I don't make it too complicated for the developer because I'm all about you know growth and that part of Durham is is growing really fast and so are our property values but I don't want to lose property in order to do that thank you thank you mr. Sykes I do have individuals who is there anyone who wants to respond to any of mr. Sykes concerns if that's possible if not thank you thank you yeah sorry I was trying not to be rude for once and wait to be called on but I started walking up because I can't help myself I like to talk I appreciate mr. Sykes comments so what he's talking about you've got the map in front of you mr. the Sykes family owns directly to the west of this parcel again a really nice piece of property west of here and you see that we have this arrow on the west side of the page where there's a road a future road that'll stub out to the Sykes property so what mr. Sykes is talking about you know we have to sewer yancy and again what's before you tonight is is a land use issue but we have to sewer yancy most likely through the Sykes parcel that's still something we're working on so my client is talking might understand with the Sykes family about where the easement goes where does the sewer go and all those things but what the board needs to understand is we don't do anything to the Sykes family without the Sykes family's permission so there may be concerns with sewer and things like that but for the land use decision here tonight we're going for three point one seven units an acre makes a lot of sense here so I would ask for your approval knowing that we have to work out the sewer issue at some point in the future we won't build anything thank you thank you I have two individuals who have signed up to speak against this project Tony and Rosie Struther all right even my name is Anthony Paul Struthers my wife Rose Marie Struther we both live at 3208 Shady Grove Road in Durham North Carolina I'm a retired sergeant first class in US Army moved down here to Durham North Carolina in 95 to get our little piece of heaven out here in southeast Durham County the area during County that's way often forgot about but very highly sought after because of the Briar Creek area and all the development around there I'm against the whole thing just on the bell and the foundation and it's already the developments around us have already changed our whole way of life the major impact being traffic if you were to come and sit out on our front porch every night from about a quarter after four to eight o'clock you would see nothing but a constant stream of cars coming from Briar Creek literally two and a half hours if not more we call the Lumiere line every night because it looks like a bunch of candles when you're sitting on the front porch with cars come by you literally cannot get out on Shady Grove Road for two and a half hours if you're heading left towards Leesville Road you want to go right to go shopping at Briar Creek are good to go my specific concern since I'm pretty darn sure you're not gonna vote against this is I'm told that you guys being the council are requiring a connector road from the property to go out to bluegrass road which is the road that my house is situated off on on the side on the south side it's a dead-end road traffic already streams down Shady Grove from Mount Herman for the folks coming off a 70 that don't want to go down 540 and take Leesville to go into those huge developments that are back off over there as soon as this thing is approved and building starts and they make this connector road in the blue grass people that drive down this road aren't idiots it's not gonna take them long to figure out when they bought a house in this development then instead of going down Shady Grove and taking a left on Leesville and going into the entrance on the top of the piece of land shown on your map that they can take a left on the bluegrass go right down about 150 200 feet and take a right into the backside that development to get home and it's not gonna take them very long probably two seconds after that figure out oh wait a minute I can come back out this way get on bluegrass and hit Shady Grove and just take a right and go to Briar Creek and go all about my business we've raised six five grandchildren who have enjoyed the freedom of riding their bicycles up and down bluegrass road was just which is just a real small barely two lane road that's not a hard top it's more like gravel and asphalt it's not a it's not like the Shady Grove and it's not a main thoroughfare road and we've got one more small and it just loves to ride his bike down bluegrass road and once this is approved and that connector road is built then all that just pretty much goes off the board my grandchildren can no longer walk down the road to go visit friends down the road they certainly won't be able to ride their bikes down the road and we'll play he double hockey sticks trying to get out of our driveway well I could have said slurp but I didn't say slurp because that's where they use I don't want to say a word I'm not supposed to say but and we're gonna play you know what trying to get out of our driveway in the evening especially when folks are well morning probably and even when folks are coming home trying to get into the back side of this development to go to their house because in this report that they applied for that they put an impact of plus nine hundred and ten daily visits coming out of that subdivision and I know our road bluegrass we're on the corner of bluegrass and Shady Grove Road bluegrass is not made handle that much traffic to come up on Shady Grove and like he said people are gonna get smart if they have an access road going out of this development to bluegrass that instead of people having to wait in that lumineer line to go all the way up from Shady Grove to Leesville at the red blink and light and have to wait for all that four-way traffic they're gonna cut through on bluegrass if there's an access road to come in the backside of it and it there's that's where the tree barrier supposed to be so there goes part of the tree barrier if they have to cut a road through there to get on to bluegrass while we appreciate the fact that the developers putting in a big buffer there so that we don't have to actually excuse me see the development that's gonna be there does just the plain fact that that there has to be a connector road going into bluegrass is just gonna once again alter our way of life and our enjoyment of our property where we currently live at and another thing on their application that I noticed that they first applied say in only a hundred and forty units but on everything else it's a hundred and forty nine so how did it get bumped up nine more units and three hundred and thirty five hundred square feet is not very big for a house if you look at the rest of the lots down there along bluegrass road and Blue Hill Road everybody has at least two and a half or three acres of land per house yes there's across the street on Shady Grove Road they put the Mulberry Park townhomes and I forget how many they put on 36 acres there but it's extending that and really not blending that how many acres per house we have in that area you know they're trying to cram back so many houses on postage stamps and it doesn't blend in with the area granted there's Dell web on the other side but that's on the back side there's still acreage in between and then they're gonna plot this medium dense four houses per acre is not that big you can stand in between each house and touch them how close they end up being I don't know if I might ask you guys questions but I'll ask anyway and if I can't then I've already asked it but I don't know how many of you live out that way how many of you have ever had the occasion to drive down into southeast Durham County but if you haven't you ought to take a chance and come out that way someday just to see how heavily impacted the area is by traffic and how much people that live out that way have had to constantly endure as the place continues to develop and develop and houses be built so people can move in I'm not against progress that's the way the world was built and there's no way anybody can stand away to progress I'm not standing here saying that I'm standing away to progress I would just ask that if there's any way possible for you to reconsider this connector road that we're told by the developer that Durham says has to be there if you can put it on one of the other sides put it anywhere else except going down on the bluegrass on the road we live off of that will be just the neatest things and slice where that's our main concern is that connector road that we were told that Durham is demanding that it be put there the developers even told us they don't want the road there but they have no choice because you guys say it has to be there you guys collectively whoever you guys thank you thank you thank you for your comments and mr. Eden would you like to respond to some of the questions that they asked before I give the commissioners an opportunity to to ask questions yeah I'd be great I appreciate it and I appreciate our neighbors showing up I recognize them from the meetings we've been working on this project a couple years so we've had a few meetings over the years but I've got a few notes here and I'm gonna try to hit on everyone the traffic comment is is a comment that that we get on most every zoning case I'm not a traffic engineer I'm pretty sure where there's no traffic in I mean bills a traffic engineer but we're not required to provide a traffic study I know the because we're designing most of what's going on in this area I know that fendall farms is making a good 8 to 10 off-site improvements I know that in my homes is Andrews Chapel project is improving the intersection of Andrews Chapel and Leesville Road and the intersection of Leesville Road and shady Grove I know that Dell Webb made road improvements I know that there's a lot of road improvements that are in the works out here because of all the development that's going on as far as there was a comment about blending and I understand when you're the existing homeowner you want people to blend in with where you live but the harsh reality of this area is what blends in is what we're proposing because there's four or five there's three or four thousand lots around us all just like it so the blending what what stands out in this location is the lots I would desire which is our neighbors lots because they're bigger lots and that's where I want to live obviously but that's not that what that's what doesn't fit in with the community because what's going on there now is more dense development Briar Creek as far as lot size for 3,500 square feet honestly it's an arbitrary number and that we pick out to have a minimum on the development plan if you want 4500 square feet fine not a problem I mean the buildings where the square feet is a lot is based on the product which we don't have the end user yet you know still working for the end user but we know that these lots are going to be 50 and 60 feet wide and 100 120 feet deep most likely so 3500 was just a placeholder again blue grass lane I would love to not connect to it I don't think it's necessary doesn't make a lot of sense there would be some cut through traffic I think that's that's inevitable at first but you also got to keep in mind what's going on in Briar Creek I mean we're one property owner away the Sykes family from having a direct connection from Yancey to Briar Creek Parkway so when that is made I don't think people when I've driven down bluegrass you don't want to drive you don't want a lot of traffic down bluegrass understand that it's narrow it's gravel so I get that but ultimately if I'm going to Briar Creek and I've got a direct shot literally to Briar Creek Parkway which is under construction right now like one partial down I want to Briar Creek Parkway but again we share we don't want to make the connection bluegrass and if the if you guys want to make a recommendation of approval with this connection not being required we would all applaud you so thank you for your time thank you if there are no additional comments I'm going to close the public hearing and give the commissioners an opportunity to ask questions so are there commissioners who would like to speak I'll start to my commissioner Johnson other commissioners would like to speak or you'd like to think and then speak all right commissioner Johnson thank you chair woman so I'm gonna be the the freshman here and just make sure I got the understanding so for the couple that spoke in opposition particularly highlighting the potential cross connector road when I'm looking at this map that we're provided is showing that this is the potential collector are you fearful that it will actually end up going through the property you're gonna have to use the mic in order to respond because the we're being recorded and you just looking at this very bottom of what he shows the arrow that points down that to where the connector would be the bluegrass yes on the very bottom there if you follow that line all the way to the lower right-hand corner that's about where our place is so in our drive our two driveways go into bluegrass that's how we get in and out our address is actually shady Grove Road but when the house was built and the county approved everything they gave it a shady Grove Road access address because it faces shady Grove Road but the driveways excuse me actually on bluegrass okay thank you the dead end road you go down to the end this way and you go left to right thank you does that answer your question okay thank you very much that helps I just trying to make sure I get an understanding here and so for the general question Mr. site no I'm sorry the Jerry mr. applicant and so it seems to me that this potential basically connector row would basically make the site more attractive attractive right in the sense of thinking forward in regards to as you said being able to use bluegrass road and again just to speak I should have given I should have pointed out where the location was it's that southern arrow that bluegrass lane is along the southern border of the property it's a UDO requirement that we can't do anything about the UDO mentions connections in the four cardinal directions I personally despise the language of the UDO and I think it should be changed and I've argued against it for years but it is what it is and we are required to make connections like this if we can get out of this one we're all we're all game to be out of it because the southern part of the parcel has a restricted covenants on it there's no development on the southern part of our parcel anyways we're just making a road connection you're gonna have a lot of trees saved down there let's make it all environmentally let's do nothing there let's save it we're all preaching about limiting impervious we're all concerned about stormwater and every time I do a project I got to connect in all four cardinal directions sometimes it doesn't make sense to build the road that goes to nowhere so in this case I would be glad not to do it but if I have to at the sake of getting my approval then I'll leave it on the plan but I'm open either way thank you thank you just just trying to get on this and so my final question to your woman is but have you heard to the the party in opposition have you heard from any neighboring of your neighbors or peers in the area is this the major concern in regards to this particular proposed project is this one that basically nearly deal breakers for you at the risk of sounding old and I'm not really that old yes this is the major concern none of us want to see our way of life change because we came to that area because it's so beautiful but out of all the complaints that we've all expressed each other this is the major one thank you thank you thank you Commissioner Miller and then the chair will recognize commissioners thank you madam chairman what I have a question for staff on our zoning context map for some reason we don't know what the zones are of these neighboring parcels can I would like to know that before I decide those parcels are not in Durham's jurisdiction they're in Raleigh's jurisdiction interesting wait County's jurisdiction say sorry because they're shaded gray and it says County jurisdiction I want to speak to that let me speak to that quickly just I've got a question to the staff if I may I'm just looking at the map you sent us it shaded gray it says County jurisdiction let's give staff an opportunity to respond if you look at the map essentially most everything that's in the gray section over there on this property up into the section over there on the right hand side is right hand side of what so where the so if you look at the flum map that has a better representation of where the actual County line is I appreciate that so so the gray shading here is incorrect Sarion with the planning department I wasn't planning to be on camera tonight but what whatever so the gray it is Durham County but it's been annexed by the city of Raleigh so it shows on one map as County jurisdiction because it is for County line purposes but it is not either under land use control by city or Durham County it is under the land use control of the city of Raleigh because it's been annexed by them all right I appreciate that that's good to know thank you now I have a question for Mr. Judge so help me understand the UDO requires the development plan to show these cardinal points connections if they're available that correct yes does the UDO actually require them as they when they submit a site plan probably to show them as well right correct there are based on the tier boundaries there are distances for every certain amount of distance that they have to provide a connection in the cardinal in each cardinal direction and there are some exceptions or allowances to deal with floodplain steep slopes and other not not applicable applicable in this case to my knowledge do when do they actually have to build do they have would they actually have to build would they actually have to pull a road right up to bluegrass or can they leave it on the map unbuilt yes and this case they would have to physically make that connection at some point when they're developing that phase of the project they would have an ability to the phase the project so it wouldn't necessarily be so by build out but but prior to full build out they would have to provide there would have to be a connection if that's good to know thank you those are my questions okay Commissioner Gibbs well I'm on the same horse as you are Commissioner Miller I don't know if Blue Hill Lane connects to anything to any street I don't have so basically this this other this this entry exit that we're talking about is going into basically a dead-end road on one end on and you do you think there does anybody on staff know that if that could have some carry some weight as to whether it would be required that that was just my my thinking on it it it's just serving this particular development and really causing havoc on one end the other end you can't go anywhere but anyway does staff have any idea what the city or the UDO or whatever might give some relief from that that's all Commissioner Gibbs has posed a question to apologize I think as I understood your question the I mean the ordinance does require it there are a few exceptions that I don't believe would be applicable here the purpose for why the ordinance requires it is to provide connectivity between neighborhoods for delivery of services and for people to be able to drive from one neighborhood to another without having to go out onto the thoroughfare so I don't know of any way short of changing the ordinance that that there would be a way of avoiding the connection I guess this is right sort of on the jurisdictional line between our MPO and the capital area MPO and City of Raleigh so I believe that other street while it may stuff out now would ultimately connect to an extension of TW Alexander that would be constructed by City of Raleigh through through there hmm can I make one point Mr. Miller just on your topic it may help it's up to her right unless a commissioner has you know has a question that needs to be answered I've closed a public hearing so the comments are now coming from commissioners so are the other commissioners who would like to ask questions or to speak on this issue commissioner gauche thank you I have a couple questions one is the one that you're trying to address if you would you said you had some insights on that the other question I have is I'm just curious is I don't know that it I'm wondering why there's this little cutout of this parcel up here on Leesville yeah it's just not part of the project just different different parcel and it's not part of the project okay and I mean I'm assuming you've been in contact with them I have not I was given this piece and I said run with it okay and did you have some more information regarding that I've got my I've always got opinions right but my opinion on the street sub and the purpose of correct me if I'm wrong purpose of a development plan is to establish requirements that exceed UDO requirements it is not to try to change things to make it less than what the UDO requires so I appreciate the debate on the southern stub but I think the proper moves if you support the project as a senator council they'll make the decision and you guys will give great input because there are no services to extend to you when you're extending into the city of Raleigh we're not taking fire trucks down Blue Hill and wherever and putting out Raleigh fires we're not doing that it's edge of the parcel also just quick one point out this is not a controversial project okay we've had controversial projects we've had filled rooms I want to work with our neighbors as much as we can but we've not had a lot of pushback on this thank you yeah the in that was one thing that I wanted to address I development in this side of Durham has been you know ongoing there's been a lot of projects approved and the stuff that's getting approved out here is is not like what was you know what is there or what was built there decades ago and I don't know that's a bad thing one thing that I think we need in Durham is well density and frankly 3.5 or that's not very dense it might be more dense than what's there now but there's also apartments just on the other side over there and Bar Creek so I mean this isn't a heinously dense project or anything but the city of Durham is growing in density I mean we have to use our land efficiently we can't we can't not everyone can have three acres of land I would like three acres of land I don't have three acres of land but not not everyone can and and not and I don't even know that it's wise to you know suggest that everyone should have three acres of land what you know that I think that this is a great opportunity and I'm not saying just this project I'm saying all of the projects in this area this is a very difficult side of Durham to develop based off of the utilities and the extension so you know to the extent that it can get done it's going to get done you know I think piecemeal in this area which is unfortunate but it's the way that it has to go just because of the development costs I appreciate the comments from the Sykes family and I think if I understood you correctly I think what you said made a lot of sense that you would like the ultimate road the access or a road easement and the sewer easement to be kind of concurrent and that makes a lot of sense I don't know what capacity we have up here to to address it other than to provide comments to City Council and I intend to I think that makes a lot of sense and I appreciate the concern I I don't know why they would think that they should diverge those two easements in any manner but maybe there's a good reason I can't think of it so thank you for that input I would support the project as is as for this connection I do have a question for transportation for Bill so what I'm seeing on the development plan is this dash line that is a collector correct and that's the I think east-west collector that meets that requirement yes bill judge with transportation the the dash line between those two access points is was illustrated to basically show conformance with collector street plan that that called for an extension of that that collector through the through the property and what can you describe what a collector is what the purpose of it is it's really not meant much different than a the collector and connection streets often get confused the only the real difference with the collector street it could still have residential frontage on it it would just may be less subject to receiving speed humps or some other other types of features though those may be allowable they may be allowable depending on traffic volumes of this particular one I would anticipate with with the amount of a large area that it's going to serve with some of the other with the Sykes property and the am I home property that it that it very well may not may not meet that they would threshold but the so then what type of street would be this connection down to bluegrass road so yeah I mean they would both be public streets the it wouldn't be a collector it would not be a collector it might be since it's not required to be a collector it could very well have a slightly smaller cross section both of them would still be two lanes the difference would be the yeah the collector street would be accommodated to provide bicycle accommodations where the connection down the bluegrass might be as little as maybe 26 feet in width where it would just basically be two-way with some parking potentially so and this is just I'm offering this as commentary to the developer who has expressed with you all that the connection down to bluegrass doesn't seem like a wise one and to the extent that well bluegrass isn't exactly meant for that and cut through traffic and to bluegrass doesn't I mean there's no need to introduce that other than the requirement by the UDO my my suggestion would be I realize you're not at this stage would be to provide basically a circuitous route to that bluegrass connection so that it wouldn't you know so that people wouldn't choose to use that so that'd be inconvenient for them to use that but if you have to make the connection I guess you have to but I understand the concern from both parties and hope that the ultimately it's like planned staff or whoever can find a reason of way in which this connection doesn't have to be made because it just doesn't seem like one that is desirable thank you thank you commissioner goes and if there are no additional comments I do have commissioner Miller who has comments thank you thank you madam chairman apart from the questions I had for staff which the information we received is very useful I do have a general comment about this PDR proposal PDR is the intense statement to PDR talks about innovative development and fitting in with neighbors and those kinds of things our comprehensive plan has a whole section on high quality residential development and and how we should be using our mechanisms in the UDO like development plans in order to avoid visual monotony and we have a specific policy against repetitious placement of garage doors and things like that and so when I look at a PDR plan since it is the zone we use to build almost all residences townhouses apartments single-family homes I look for committed elements from the developer to show how they are serving our adopted policies in the comprehensive plan as they relate to quality residential design and infill development and those things and what we have here is an essentially a minimalist development plan and I hate these I don't like to vote for them I want to show the development plan device I want to show that I want the developer to show how his project is serving the adopted policies of the city and county of Durham and this doesn't do that so and in normal circumstances because it doesn't do that I would vote against it I'm not going to vote against this one I'm going to stay my piece here I'm gonna say my piece again in the comments to the city council or board of commissioners wherever this case goes about this the overriding consideration here to me is this is a 3.1 or 3.2 units per acre this is low density we only have one two categories that have lower density and because of that and because this property at 3.2 units an acre gives lots of space out there I know that the some of the neighbors were concerned about the minimum lot size I'm not concerned about the minimum lot size there's more than enough land here to give everybody a quarter of an acre if you wanted to parse it out that way that's not the right way to do this to turn this into a checkerboard I think it's it's it's good to give the developer freedom but I would like to see again some sort of design commitments that are meaningful that help us show that when we approve rezoning that the development that we're approving is serving the plans that we as a community have adopted this doesn't do that I'm still voting for it but I would I wish I could vote for it with a bigger smile thank you commissioner Miller other commissioners if not commissioner Freeman just just the general comment in that this development highlights for me once again how when we're going about this piecemeal process of developing properties around or figuring out based on a piece of property rather than a whole area if we match what Wake or Raleigh has I don't think that that's Durham and so I just want to make sure that I'm highlighting that our process should reflect what Durham's needs are and I wasn't going to say it but specifically to Tom's point is I can't say anything about what type of property or what type of development is going here because I can't see anything on this plan and I know my main issue is always affordable housing and regardless of whether it's near transit or not if we're going to develop and put density in place it should have density that matters and I don't know four units of acre I live on less than a quarter of an acre and I just want to make sure that that point is not missed that we're not trying to match what they have across the line we actually need to address what we need here in Durham thank you Commissioner Freeman the chair will entertain a motion at this time madam chair I move that we send forward case number Z 1 6 0 0 0 2 5 to the city council who appears with a favorable recommendation second second motion by Commissioner Busby that we move item Z 1 6 0 0 0 2 5 yancy property zoning map change request forward with a favorable request second by Commissioner Whitley all in favor of this motion let's have a roll call mr. Outer yes mr. Busby I miss Freeman I mr. Gose mr. Gibbs mr. Harris mr. Hyman yes mr. Johnson mr. Kenshin yes mr. Miller mr. Whitley motion passes 10 to 1 thank you our next item new business comprehensive transportation plan presentation item a thank you my name is Andy Henry I work for the Durham Chapel Hill carburel metropolitan planning organization I know that's a mouthful it's a lot but I'm going to give you something a little bit different tonight could you please get a little bit closer to the mic remembering that our listening poker at home I'll try to hold still thank you so I've something a little bit different tonight and I'm going to talk about the comprehensive transportation plan and really I have a couple objectives that is for you to get to know what the MPO is a little bit and what a CTP comprehensive transportation plan is and also I would like to get your comments on this plan and there's a lot of information in this plan highways bicycle pedestrian etc. I don't expect to walk out tonight with a full set of comments so that may be something you work out over the next month I will tell you that this is going to City Council February 9th at the work session and on the 20th of that month for a vote and then the Board of County Commissioners February 6th and then on to the vote on 13th so just to give you some perspective there okay so what is the DCHC MPO we're responsible for all the long-range transportation planning in Durham County parts of Orange County and Chatham County you can see the map right there that's all a derm it's the urbanized areas there in Orange County and part of actually northeast Chatham County and it's a federal mandate you must have an MPO if you want to spend that federal transportation funding MPO has to plan and approve the use of that funding and we have a policy board it's composed of the elected officials around the area for the city of Durham its members are Steve Shull and Don Moffitt Mayor Bells and alternate and for Durham County it's Alan Wreckow as a member so most of the funding that's assigned to the MPO that the MPO science is in cooperation with North Carolina Department of Transportation the MPO does receive some funding directly that just the MPO matches the project but most of it is in cooperation with NCDOT this is the framework that we use for planning so today I'm talking about the comprehensive transportation plan that's the first big circle so there's a lot of projects in this this plan because if we can show the need we put it in the comprehensive transportation plan later this year I'll probably be back and I'll be talking about that next circle the MTP and that's a federal mandate the CTP is a state mandate the federal mandates a little different because we have to show up to the year 2045 what our revenue is going to be and we have to use that revenue to pay for a project so you can see it's going to be a smaller set of projects because we has to be fiscally constrained and MTP and then some of you the next bubble down there some of you might have heard about the prioritization process that the state has that's that crosshatch circle and those projects that get that do well in the prioritization project process they go on to some of you might know the TIP transportation improvement program a 10-year funding plan that the state has so it's a long process I threw this slide in here don't expect to memorize it but my point is the CTP is just the beginning of the process you see there the planning block there this is the CTP when we identify projects we don't know exactly where their alignment is going to be we don't know exactly what the cross section is going to be that'll be worked out later in design we don't know when it'll be funded that'll be worked out later in the programming cycle but this is CTP is the very beginning of that process why do a CTP well right now we have what's called a thoroughfare plan and thoroughfare plan will be replaced by the CTP CTP is the new the new model that they use the state and right now the Durham thoroughfare plan was adopted in 1992 there's a lot of old projects in there that I don't think we we want anymore and you can see our other partner agencies over there Chapel Hill Carburel Hillsboro Chatham County they all have old thoroughfare plans at the MPO needs to replace and Chatham counties goes all the way back to 1983 the other thing is and currently in the thoroughfare plan but the CTP we replace that you use the thoroughfare plan to reserve roadway right of way to reserve or dedicate roadway right right of way when you have a new development also you permit certain types of uses you might say the develop warrants might say you can't have an industrial use here unless this is a minor thoroughfare above you can't have athletic ball fields unless it's a certain type of roadway above and there's other things speed humps etc this is just a slide this is a state requirement that we do the CTP and as I said before this will be input the CTP of the input to our metropolitan transportation plan what are the key products I'll start with highways really the CTP mostly is a map and you see an example of the map there on the right and those different colors and hatches it shows what type of roadway it is that the roadways are minor thorough affairs major thoroughfares boulevards express ways and highways that's kind of the hierarchy so even if a roadway is not going to change in the future if it's a major roadway we still show it in the plan and then also in that we show existing that means there's we don't anticipate any improvements for that roadway we show needs improvements that means it could be widened there could be some other improvements along the roadway and recommended means it just doesn't exist we really don't have many recommended roadways in Durham County just a few that would have new alignment there's also tables and the tables have a lot of information they might say what the current volume is in that roadway segment what we think the future volume is going to be you know so what's the capacity of that roadway so we can give you a ratio of what the what the volume to capacity is for a future year we also show what we think the cross section is going to be you know if you go back to that slide I had earlier we're not exactly sure at the cross section be but right now you know we guess we think it's going to be four lane it'll be divided roadway sidewalks bike lanes so we do that there's a lot of other information you see problem statements there we we write up problem statements that really explain why the improvements are needed in the plan some of them are quite lengthy for some of our major roadways like I-40, I-85, US-70, 15501 Durham freeway you have three or four pages of explanation there we also have something called unaddressed needs basically that says well if you're telling me this roadway is going to have 20,000 vehicles a day future can only handle 15,000 you don't have an improvement here why and that does occur sometimes because well there may be houses several blocks of houses that are only 25 feet from the edge of roadway we can't find a roadway like that the impact is too much in the neighborhood so again we have a list of unaddressed needs in there public transportation in rail we show a future bus a current and future bus we show the rail lines there's a lot of other things designated there where we think there'd be multimodal transit centers park and ride lots rail stations there's quite a bit of information on the transit side there's also fixed guideway maps fixed guideway transportation and fixed guideways is the fanciest way of saying light rail commuter rail you know bus rapid transit it has its own its own guideway so we have a map with with the future fixed guideway in this area that would be the light rail proposed light rail system from Chapel Hill over to now North Carolina central and also the commuter rail going from Mevin all the way through Orange County through downtown Durham on the way county so those are some of the fixed guideway projects and one thing I forgot to mention is the old thoroughfare plan was just one map and it was just highways the CTP is multimodal so we do have bicycle pedestrian and multi-use paths in in that plan and these are usually what we've taken as the adopted plans and the local jurisdictions and include them in the plans we don't so we don't show future sidewalks because really the MPO policy is there should be sidewalks everywhere on every street very few streets shouldn't have sidewalks so we use that as a policy statement so there's a lot of information and I'm just giving you examples of one way to access it in your packet and forgot to bring mine up you should have a sheet in your packet it says key key key projects yeah I've got that you should have had a one-page key projects in Durham County in both sides right okay that that's one way to start your review you can look at that and you can see what we tried to do is pull out the roadways that we thought were the most important ones there's a map there numbers indicating and it shows which roadways those are and it's got a short explanation of some of the improvements that we anticipate so that that's one way to start that's just a summary another way you can go we have on our website Google style maps so you can go and on our website and I can show you how to do that a minute it's very easy you get on a map and you can zoom in and zoom out on all those different maps highway transit bike and pedestrian it's just an easy way to view that data if you click on a project or a segment it'll tell you some of the information that I had a few slides back like the current volume future volume it'll have some information on what type of cross section we anticipate for that roadway so that's a good way to look at that information as well that's the way I like to use it and then a third way is also on the website we have PDF maps they're really very large poster maps of those different of highway bicycle pedestrian transit etc and you can download those or open those up and look at them we use poster maps because then you can zoom in a little bit and not lose resolution so those are three ways of looking at that data the schedule we already went through the deficiency analysis about a year ago now we're in December the MPO board released the draft CTP for public comment so during January and February we'll be receiving the comments possibly making changes and in March we hope that the MPO would adopt the CTP and then usually ncdot would adopt a month or so later I will say one good way to provide some input is on January 24th we have a workshop what we call the workshop it's really a drop-in meeting January 24th at the Durham Center Station you know the main bus terminal will probably be up in the second floor I will try to get down on the first floor if you can get enough room and we'll be here there for three hours you can stop by look at the maps ask questions and speak with staff directly so I think that's a good opportunity I know everyone's schedule is busy but that's a good opportunity to look at the maps and give us some feedback and you can you can call me anytime if you have any questions I don't have any further information I could show you some of the other maps but if you go to the MPO's website it's easy it's dchcmpo.org or g you'll see at the top of the page you can click on the the CTP in our news and as soon as that page opens up you'll see the the thumbnails of the maps and I think that's the easiest way to start viewing those maps and giving us information I don't have anything else if you have any questions I'd be happy to answer them commissioners have questions commissioner Freeman commissioner Gibbs and commissioner Miller to my left just just a quick question regarding that January 24th date you mentioned at the Durham bus station what time is that oh I'm sorry 4 p.m. to 7 p.m. and then just noting are these maps no longer available on the TIP website on the TIP website the TIP yes so the TIP's a separate document the Transition Improvement Program so what we're you know away from it yeah it's separate ncdot just released their most recent state tech did they release their tip yet Ellen they did okay ncdot just recently released their Transition Improvement Program so that's that shows which projects are funded if you go back to that circle those concentric circles I have that's that's one of the last circles there did I answer your question to that well I just want to make sure that this information is like you're not saying that this is not going to be available on the TIP or the Transportation Improvement Plan website as well as here you're offering an additional place to find the information and then more of the local information as well it's all on one website okay yes it's on the MPO's website commissioner Gibbs I wish this this writing was a little bigger so I could see it but I'm my question is specifically to the public transportation and rail I am going I am assuming that the public transportation which buses streets or whatever is going to be is coordinated with the light rail and all that downtown and the stops wherever the stops may end up being right and and that is is that correct yes we work with the transit systems to develop those plans that have the bus system if you're talking about light rail for instance you have your stations once you have a station need to have a feeder bus system and then that services in there yeah and I right off hand where it stands now is it more or less I'll say a north south feeder direction for the light rail because it's saying the light rail is going to be going east west basically yeah mostly in Durham I would say I would assume that but you know once it gets to Duke it takes a pretty sharp turn south and goes to the old south square area and then across 15501 so it's not all east west yeah and I may be getting this plan confused or mixing it in with the plans for the light rail and feeders but it's always been my my feeling that the feeders would be coming from north well from north Durham for instance to downtown they would be some very busy could be some very busy buses but at any rate I'm glad to know that there is some coordination with the light rail and all of that and the connectors you bring up a good point so this is the comprehensive plan so we work with the transit systems and go triangle and their staff to bring in you know the light rail and the proposed regular bus service for go Durham you know go triangle etc you know we work with DOT and our staff to bring in the highway projects we work with all the local jurisdictions or bicycle pedestrian planners with their local plan so this is the comprehensive plan so we picked up all these different plans and we're putting them in one one plan and it helps coordinating and I respect that is good to know I'm glad that that there is a place where it's comprehensive I've been to meetings where it's focused on light rail and and then something else and it seems like all of it is just getting so disconnected but I think this probably will after I get a chance to look into it and go to some of the meetings I'll understand comprehensively how things are but I thank you so much for your presentation thank you commissioner Miller so I I think you you're helping me understand so you said the TIP is separate and of course that's where you know where we lay out projects and we decide which ones are funded and we I've trained myself to think of that's how roadways get built so the TIP informs the comprehensive transportation plan the comprehensive transportation plan does not override or change the TIP so am I right no okay good tell me comes first you have to first in in which direction are we going so if you're going to if you're going to widen Austin Avenue or improve Austin Avenue you can't put it in the TIP unless it's in the MTP okay so if you look at the circles there again first comes the comprehensive transportation plan then we say okay let's look at the money that we have up to your 2045 and then so it's a smaller set of projects when it comes to the TIP you can't as an example you wouldn't have Austin Avenue improvements unless that was in the MTP but my point is is we don't currently have a comprehensive transportation plan you mean the city of Durham right no right now the the planning area we haven't adopted it yet I saw the schedule right so we don't have one yes that's correct and so in creating it you have a thorough plan though in creating it though we have does the but we do have a TIP yes and so the TIP has helped inform the preparation of this draft comprehensive transportation plan yes and that we would make sure that any project that's in the TIP is in the comprehensive plan well yes that's this that's that's pretty rigorous information I mean there's you have not in this comprehensive transportation planning process proposed in the draft comprehensive transportation plan to drop projects that are currently listed on the TIP have you no okay thank you one thing we we don't have a CTP right now we have a thoroughfare plan that old thoroughfare plan from 1992 that's what we have and it's for highway only right I understand thank you we have two other items the item B the city budget priorities and item C which was an additional staff okay so I will be very brief my name is Ben Kittleson I'm a senior analyst with the budget department and this is Sherry Matt Kelf it's also a senior analyst we are here because for this year for the FY 18 budget process we want to do a better job of engaging residents in the community in the during budget process so we're meeting with community groups and we're going to have a survey up on the website for residents to take and so to give you guys a little bit of background information the city has about a 405 million dollar budget almost half of that 46 percent is spent on people so paying benefits the police officers your parks and rec your planners it's been on the people that that provide the services we also spend about 250 million on capital projects so that's a I think about that as the fun stuff that local governments do the parks streets sidewalks bike lanes and we wanted to meet with you guys today to do a little priority exercise so if you had to pick between two different services that the city provides what would you choose what would you rather the city spend their money on so in front of you the exercise that Sherry passed out is a is something to do exactly that and what we want to do is we want to meet with a bunch of boards and commissions and community groups and talk to put take them through this exercise and then gather all that data and see if we can find something from it and then use it to inform our budget decisions this is also available online the links up there on that screen and I can also get it sent out to you guys and the survey will be open until March 31st so let me walk you through the this exercise real quick and then I can answer any questions you might have so you should have on your sheet of paper something that looks a little bit like this slide and essentially what we're asking you guys to do is to compare two things that the city does so what's in the column versus what's in the row so for example if you're comparing parks and sidewalks and say you would rather the city spend money on sidewalks over parks you would write that in so if I was filling this out I'd do comparing parking in parks I'd write in parking parking in sidewalks right in sidewalks and so you guys kind of get the idea you do that with all the blank boxes on that sheet and so you're just comparing those two services and trying to decide if you had to pick one that the city would spend its money on what would you choose and so once you're done with that on the back there's a little place to total up your score essentially you count up how many times you chose parks and open spaces how many times you chose sidewalks so when I did it I got something I think like this and it might look like for me I chose sidewalks a bunch of times and trails and greenways that didn't choose athletic fields very much and then we ranked those and so based on the number of times we chose it for me sidewalks was one street improvements and athletic fields was low on my priority list and so the goal is to take all this information and say most citizens like may agree with me and have a lot of sidewalks in their exercise or maybe they might say athletic fields is actually the most important thing to me and so our goal is to kind of take all that information and inform our budget decisions and so it might be as simple as we put a little more money towards sidewalks in the CIP during FY 18 or it might be we move a project up in the plan because we see citizen demand for it so I can stop here and take questions now or I've got a little more information on each of these categories if you guys would like that I realize you guys have had a long meaning so I can kind of cut it a little short if you'd like or if you have any questions I can I can do that now yeah why are we not looking at development plans that have a strategy to them like one we seriously need to get sidewalks with children getting in and out the bus and instead of walking in the middle of the street yeah and so that's a that's a great point so the reason we kind of there's no way to do that in this exercise well and the reason we wanted to talk about the services more generally is because we know there are plans like that that exists and like parks has its own plan and transportation department has plans for bike lanes and sidewalks and street improvements and all that good stuff and so the goal is to be like you as a citizen or your neighbor as a citizen say that they think they the sidewalks are more important and so when we weigh those options because there's only so many dollars to spend in a year we might say well the citizens say we'd like more sidewalks or they might say we like more athletic fields and so when we're making those choices that can be something that that that gets weighed does that make sense does that answer your question okay I have a question so only because this is a street improvements is an issue that came up recently in our community homeowners association and I know that a group managed to get together to come down to speak with the city council about you know probably making this a looking at how to make this a priority in their budget and the question I have is streets that have been is there a regular schedule of street improvements that's already in place where if it hasn't been done in like 10 years then it's on the schedule to I believe so that I'll have to ask the transportation department or in public works but I would think so so this so this only indicates that if I there's a need for street improvement and that's a priority for me yeah it's low for you yeah because we live in different neighborhoods okay yeah all right and so one of the things we're doing is we're meeting with the different packs and so when we may see a pattern where in pack five they they all said street important and pack one they didn't so that might be something else that we could we could draw from the data a follow-up question um do we not do we still have the capital improvement committee yeah yeah yeah this is separate this is some this is a way we were trying to engage the community in the budget process and so we thought this was a pretty tangible way that citizens would be able to go hey I think sidewalks are important to me or athletic fields are important and they're they're also easy for us to then inform budget decisions where we can say here's a here's a dollar amount that we we can attach to that or in our plan we can make adjustments because of that input I think you had your hand I'm not sure how to say this without it coming across negatively that's fine I'll take it but I'm I mean I'm on the I'm on the fence with this like you're trying to make it simpler yeah and this is something and this is a very complex issue which is what I think Reverend Melvin well and this is something that we're just getting at so if you guys have some feedback like that that like that you would need to think about an email that's totally fine this is just something we're trying it we thought it was our best kind of stab at something that might be worthwhile and able to inform the budget process but also easy enough to understand for somebody that may that may not be as involved as and I think when you add the fact that you will tie a dollar amount to the answers to these questions it becomes even more of a complex well and I should shouldn't speak out of turn but like but it could be um so it may be that we give the stat and city council doesn't use it or city manager doesn't use it but it may be that it helps them inform their decisions and there may be a dollar amount of cash or not I don't want to make that too bright of a line but uh this is just something that we're trying to as a new way to kind of engage the community I appreciate that you're out talking to a variety of boards and commissions and to the local PACs you may have mentioned this uh what's the the timing at this point how does this when does this wrap up and get put into the the process another the coffee with councils as well which is another good place for for more input and the kind of input I think a few commissioners have mentioned that they can get a little more detailed but what's the the timing and how extensive how many boards and commissions what what's your road show look like so we have the survey up on the budget website right now and it'll be up there until march 31st so if you guys want to share it that way you can share it with your neighbor's friends family until then we're meeting with boards and commissions I think we have 12 scheduled of like a possible 22 or something like that and that that'll mostly January and February and then we're meeting so we've normally done coffee with councils with all the PACs and this year we're doing a pre-meeting with them where we're going to do this exercise and then be able to come back with them at their coffees and council meeting with uh here's here's some results and that might inform their discussion with council it might not but it's another piece that we could have for them and then what's the grand finale do you do you have a plan of do you add all this up and unveil the results not yet we're hoping to add it all up and and kind of give it to the city manager in the council and like I said maybe it maybe it informs their hopefully it informs their decisions and maybe we can go you know sidewalks my example is always sidewalks but you can use it for any of the things on there sidewalks is a big priority the people we we polled what can we what can we do with that what can we do with the budget where we can show that that input mattered and made an impact on our our choice that's the goal but well I know I applaud your creativity I think it's really important to find new ways to to get input while recognizing that this isn't just the one approach that that will be all end all but I think it's great to continue to experiment so I applaud your efforts and appreciate that you're going to be out at a lot of evening meetings over the next few months so thank you thank you if you just make sure you include the inter-neighborhood council I'd appreciate it the say that again inter-neighborhood council okay i will write that down the next meeting is january 24th okay and it'll be at the nis conference conference room at seven p.m. perfect yeah and if there are other groups that you guys are involved with that you think we should talk to we'd love to add them to our list so or if you like I said if you want to share the link with your family and friends that'd be the other additional is the northeast center and leadership council okay and that next meeting will be february the first thursday and february could you tell us the link again and I do want to commend you have never seen the commission this quiet this is impressive yeah let me flip back to that so I tried to make it easy but for some reason our website always spits out some random numbers associated with the page so it's durham nc.gov slash 3020 budget this is extremely granular but you may I hope you will have a bitly link for social media use so you don't have to have such a long yeah yeah we're working with public affairs now and and I didn't mention that but part of our effort with with getting this out to the public is working with public affairs through the all their communications channels so they have lists sourced with all like the homeowners associations and stuff like that and so we're going to work with them to make sure it gets to as many eyes as we can thank you yeah perfect and breaster was one other item oh perfect go ahead I was just going to say that she said you were going to email the link thank you thank you this won't take but a minute or two but before I get started I know that Mr. Harris brought to my attention that this came up at the last meeting I was not at the last meeting and I've been missing an action for a little while because we had some reassignments of duties but I'm back so hello I'm back and I was sitting here thinking as the night went on that this this one topic I need to pass out a couple handouts just in folks that came in after I passed him out earlier if it came up at the last meeting and it seems to come up about two or three times a year that maybe we should just have a session a training session on it rather than try to in other words duke it out after a meeting when we're all tired and we have slush and mush outside so I'm going to pass these handouts out to the other folks that came in late and then I'll finish what I was going to say and Madam Chair because this would be the first time some of these people have seen this I would rather them taking home having a opportunity to read through it and then we could entertain in the questions that they had a follow-up in the meeting and not try to discuss it tonight. Very briefly to follow up on Mr. Harris's suggestion I think it would be helpful to take this home take a look at it this is an older email from our former now retired planning director to some of the staff members I would like to consult with the acting planning director about this email and and make sure that we're still I'm fairly sure staff still stands behind this this she is hard to get up with she makes an occasional appearance here so and and I would like to work with her and just be sure that we're still the nothing has changed and we don't need to update this this this actual method or methodology we've used in the past so if you're if you're amenable I would like to set up a we need to have a training session anyway we've talked about it for several months before I went missing and came back and so now I'm back and I would like to if it's okay with you set up a training session I also think that we need to discuss while we're talking about this some other relevant policies related to how we review staff being we how we review cases against the UDO and the comp plan because I think there's some confusion and I think it's because it's never been explained from on from our perspective to the commission's perspective what we actually look at and what policies we consider relevant as part of the comp plan there are some policies in the comp plan that are not relative relevant to this review and we can explain those reasons why if we were to meet and have a training session so that maybe going forward everybody would be on the same page so if that's okay I'm going to work with staff and get a meeting set up fairly soon and I just need to know do you perform mornings midday afternoon what is your preference evening or how would you rather when are you feeding a warm day is that what she said Mr. Gibbs again so what was that Mr. Harris I'm sorry when are you feeding well we can do a lunch meeting middle of the day for a couple of hours maybe like eleven to two or ten to one or something like that and try to incorporate a lunch if that works better for everybody I know you're working and you're busy we would be happy to work around your schedule so I'll go ahead and get an email out and we'll start polling dates and times just throw some dates and times out and see where we go if that's all right just any day for me except Wednesdays okay no Wednesdays help me remember that no Wednesdays and no Friday Monday or Friday okay so Tuesdays and Thursdays are best is what it sounds like Tuesdays and Thursdays Jamie and did everybody get to meet Jamie last month I'm not sure if she was introduced so Jamie can you come up for a second I want to introduce on Jamie Sunyak she's our new senior planner she's been around for a little over a month but I think she's at your last meeting but I'm not sure that you got introduced I wasn't here so I don't know but this is Jamie good evening everybody and she will be you'll be seeing Jamie quite a bit she's being trained now on development review well does not review of development plans I'm sorry not development review and she'll be seeing you next month at the meeting so I know you're anxiously awaiting what what to hear about for next month so we'll get on to that and then I'm done with my spiel unless anyone has anything else to add are you good are you good I think he said you could take that with you and I'm going to send you the link and you can actually fill it out online if you like but if you want to take it with you you can bring it back and turn it in next time you're in city hall at budget all right so for next month it looks like as you all know there was a case last month that got continued village hearth will be back next month the planning department work program will be back next month and then we have several zonings and a couple of policy projects as well we've got north river village which is your public site that will be on the agenda next month fendall farms will be on the agenda chartill commons is that Churchill commons to okay two parts of that and then Watkins at witherspoon zoning and then there's gonna be a mass grading buffers that's a text project and then the urban open space plan item will also be on the agenda and then a Andrews Chapel zoning case it's gonna be a rather busy agenda publics is north river village that's what it's referred to what about you've gotten a lot of emails about that one what about the 1000 affinity road that's hearth side that will be back next month okay right or not hearth side village hearth I'm sorry village hearth yes village hearth we have a lot of different names now and and for different projects sorry about that anyway so are we good for setting up a training session and do you have anything else for the good of the order or madam chair I do have one thing if everybody would turn their monitors off right power button turn your monitor off right power and madam chairman I have an observation in the this morning's or maybe it was yesterday morning's I got both papers today and I didn't look to see which one was which in the paper this morning or yesterday morning there was an article about a division between the city and the county over the proposed lee village design district and I was startled to see that that the that there seems to be an issue there and I was wondering it I should but I do not myself actually watch the every city council meeting to see how they vote on the zoning cases and the recommendations we send to them but I was thinking as I read that article it might be useful to us to know how our review of cases are received by the jurisdictions that we send them to it would I believe it would over time influence the recommendations I make there's I am capable of banging my head against a brick wall but that even I have a point where I would stop so it would it I would like to know is there an easier convenient place where I can go look and see how the city has voted is it the minutes after council meetings is that the best and easiest way to do it our department actually received something directly from the clerk's office that's not probably not accessible on the website so probably the best thing for you to risk to look at is the minutes the council minutes right okay right and and I guess the only way you're gonna know what's going to council is to kind of check the agendas and just kind of follow along and then we do a we do a um an annual report at the end of each year for this commission but it's at the end of the year the tally's all of that information it's not useful as we go right it's not as we go it's at the end of the year so I mean how may I have would it be an imposition on the staff if if if at every meeting perhaps at the end you said you know since the last time we met the council voted this way or that way on this case or that case or is that just too much trouble we might could do that um let us let us work on a format and it might be something we just do at the end of the meeting like we do with our informational items and maybe instead of doing a verbal we'll just pass out something at the end of each meeting instead of me standing here rattling off case names and numbers we'll just pass through a handout and it'll have that information and maybe the summary of the of what's happened since then would that work for you it would work for me would work great for me to be good for all of us good night I have a question