 We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show, behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to episode 48 of The Therapy Show with myself Jackie Jones and the wonderful Bob Cook. And in this episode we're going to be looking at working with shame in the therapy relationship. Yes, a very important topic. Yes. One that's been written about a lot and shame I think is often the forgotten emotion. Yeah. It's not written about enough. It should be on the that topic should be in every psychotherapy training program for students because shame will always be there and often shame lurks in the shadow. Yes. Now the answer to shame is love and compassion. Yeah. It's an interesting one, shame and guilt and those sort of things that again you know we often talk about bringing the past into the present. So you know that's quite a big thing you know for somebody to walk in through the door and talk to a complete stranger to start off with. But then often I find with clients when they do open up and when we have had a breakthrough. There's an awful lot of guilt and shame about that. You know and sometimes clients even talking about their upbringing and their past and what happened to them. There's a lot of guilt about you know maybe betraying certain family members or their parents or you know the relationship whatever it is. Do you think shame goes hand in hand with therapy? Hand in hand with what? Do you think shame is part of being in a therapeutic process? No, not necessarily. I think the number one question concerning the treatment of shame is to consider who's shame it is. Interesting. That's the number one question to think about clinically. I mean it's important obviously to hear the story and help the person understand themselves. But if you start considering well who's shame is it? That's a very good place to start. Okay, say a little bit more. Are you saying who's shame is it as in it's kind of been inherited through the family? For most people they carry the burden of shame for a misconceived place. In other words I think it's their fault. Yeah. I think the shame is intrinsically theirs. Well actually the shame has come from other people who should be very very ashamed. Yeah, okay. But they take it on because they believe that whatever the trauma was or whatever the situation was they were the people to blame and they were the ones that it was their fault, you know, etc etc. Yeah. If you can start to think about it that way, you know we're into a whole process about eventually the person taking some ownership of what the shame's about and where the shame came from and hopefully giving it eventually back to the place where it should actually reside. It's usually it's not on them. Yeah. But the client takes it on because they believe they would fault or they're to blame or something bad. Yeah. Because they've been told it whether that's you know actual with words it's your fault that this happened or whether it was just insinuated in the past and in their upbringing, being the black sheep of the family and things like that. Yeah. Yeah. So it's very important to help the client work out and understand you know where the shame comes from and who's shame it is. Yeah. Because it's usually not the clients. Yeah. So what do we do with it? How do we help the client work through that? Well, yeah, shame. Goodness gracious me. You are quite right. It's usually comes when the client believes or has taken on the action or the trauma or whatever we're talking about here as their fault. Yeah. If we can actually help them understand that actually the shame comes from somewhere else and it needs to be given back to that person, then you can move to actionistic therapy where actually give the shame back to the person who passed the shame onto them. Yeah. Again, I would imagine it's a slow process. Oh, shame is because just by walking in for therapy, people often get very shame because they think there's something wrong with them to become in therapy in the first place. Yeah. So it's a very slow process on picking shame and how it's held in the body and what it's about. And that's why I said it's a forgotten emotion in many ways because people because well, another way of looking at this is hidden. It's often hidden in areas of the body or held in areas of the body or not talked about or lurking in dark shadows. So it's a therapy job really to help light go into the areas of darkness where we can get to where the shame is lurking. Yeah. And I've just said love and compassion is the antidote to shame. Yeah. From the therapist to start off with, but I would imagine it's the clients showing themselves love and compassion. Yeah, but you see, Jackie, they can only get there one way, in my opinion. And that's when they experience love being bestowed on them. Yeah. So if they experience the therapist being compassionate and loving them, then they are likely to be able to have that internal process themselves. Yeah. So that's why this is a relational site of therapy. Yes. Yeah. And it's difficult for clients that do have overwhelming shame. Like you said, it's the unforgotten emotion and it just reside in the dark recesses of a person to unlock that and to let that go is quite difficult for some people. When they've carried it for so long, it kind of defines who they are as a person sometimes. Yeah. Oh, definitely. Another aspect of this is what I would call normalization is because quite often people are carrying shame, often because they've been, as I said, they've been told it's their fault, et cetera, et cetera, but also they have outdated information or they really don't have a sense of normalization about what's normal, about often what they're talking about. And then they blame themselves. Yeah. What might be a normal developmental action. Yeah. I have worked with clients that have an awful lot of shame. Yeah. And so that in a dialogue that critical parents that is constantly, you know, they second guess every move that they make in all relationships and you know, the one time that I don't know, somebody doesn't answer the phone to them. It's overwhelming that, you know, the sense of shame and guilt that they've done something wrong. It's their fault. What did they do? You know, constantly going back over, you know, past interactions, did I say the right thing? What did I do something wrong? Have I upset them? All those sorts of things. Yeah, that's correct. Yeah. So it's to unlock that. And I completely agree with what you're saying. You know, showing love and compassion and normalizing that, you know, there's something for me about does the person's ego come into it to a certain extent as in, you know, if they're questioning every interaction with a person that they are responsible for how that conversation goes or it's their responsibility that everything goes OK. Is that their ego that's coming out as well? I'm not sure the question, but I'm going to answer it, answer what I think you're getting at by saying this. If somebody comes in with a very shame based system and she's usually built around the messages that they're not OK. Yeah. Everything's their fault. These type of people have very diminished ego. In other words, they are internally telling themselves off. Yeah. They've had a life where people in reality probably punish them, burden them down. And so their ego becomes lower and lower and self-esteem is very low. So it's the opposite, I think of what you're saying. Their ego doesn't suddenly become very high because they had they feel worthless. They feel devalued. They feel a lack of self-esteem. They feel worthless, not the opposite. OK. But one of the things I say to all my clients really is that there's two people in a relationship and were responsible for 50% of that. And the other person is responsible for 50% of it. You know, the interactions go backwards and forwards. Oh, I don't agree with that. I'll tell you what I mean by that is it is developmentally, that's certainly not true because, you know, you've had children. You've got children. I don't know how many children you've got, but I know you've got one or two, haven't you? I've got three, yeah. So when you're the parent, you're anticipating the unmet needs of your child. Yeah. Our dynamics are particularly one way. So that so often the child has no choice. Now, in a healthy situation, hopefully your family, my family, there's an emphasis on self-definition, self-agency and understanding the developmental processes. But for a lot of family situations, especially when the mother or father might be shaming their child, the power dynamics are one up, one down. The child doesn't have the choice that you're talking about. No, but as an adult. Maybe as an adult, but they carry their youngest child with them. Yeah. Which again, is that bringing the past into the present and things. So they don't feel they have a choice often. Yeah. But for somebody to take on all the responsibility of every interaction that they have that they get. That's what shame people often do. Yes. Put on them. Yes. Yeah. So it is important, I agree with you, to get to what I said at the beginning. You're saying it perhaps a different way round to me, which is to find out where the shame came from in the beginning. Yes. Yeah. But again, it's kind of like another way of showing love and compassion and grounding them and getting them in the here and now and in the adult part is for them as an adult and age appropriate to what they are now, to understand that it's not their responsibility to make everybody okay and for everyone to be happy. Yeah. You know, those sort of things and that sometimes people have a different opinion to us and might take on bridge to what we're doing. I understand exactly what you're saying that because of how they were in their childhood and maybe, you know, exactly like you say, it was a one open ship. You know, there was power dynamic. Yeah. See, I know you're coming from. However, I think developmentally, in other words, I think what you're talking about is further forward. Yeah. If you're working developmentally over time, you're working with a younger child first, and then eventually work up to the position you're talking about. Yeah. And your position you're talking about I think is a great position to come to, but they're often not ready to get there. No, no. Yeah. It's a working process. I understand that. But, you know, to give them permission to sometimes get it wrong in the therapy room. Oh, yes. It's okay. None of us get it right 100% of the time. You know, if the client is constantly asking for permission or, you know, you to take the lead in every conversation because they don't want to get it wrong, you know, to give them permission to run the session sometimes even. No, permission is very important if you don't overwhelm them. Yeah. But, you know, I quite agree with you. You know, permissions at the right time clinically are vital in the treatment of somebody who comes from a shame-based system. Yeah. Because a shame-based somebody who's been really shamed has never had permissions to be themselves. Yeah. And again, like you say, it can be overwhelming sometimes to have that permission. Yeah. So there's a lot to be written on shame. In fact, on my website, I've got an article called Shame of Forgotten Emotion. But I think that shame is such an all-pervising emotion that comes with a lot of the clients that come through our room. You know, if you've got that sort of system, you're going to have low self-esteem. Yeah. You're going to be telling yourself off a lot. Yeah. You'll be looking for situations where to be shamed or where you experience being shamed. You're going to feel worthless, not value yourself and all the things that go with that. And that leads to pretty poor mental health. Yeah. Yeah. And it affects relationships and everything. Yeah. And like you say, I like that, you know, the phrase that you said, it's a forgotten emotion. People need to think about it a lot. Yeah. And in a way, you are right, to a large degree, that a lot of the conditions our clients come in with, shame will probably be lurking somewhere there in the darkness. But I do know one thing, that if you shine light into the darkness, the shame can often shrivel up and go skulking away. Yeah. And that light you're talking about love and compassion. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. And, you know, I like to think that in the therapy room, it's one of the few places where the I'm okay, you're okay, is alive and well in that room. Yeah. Love has to be there. Yeah. Passion has to be there. Now, whether the client is ready to take that's another story already, but the intent needs to be there, if nothing else. Yeah. If we don't love our clients, I don't know where we go. And I also think we wouldn't be in this business. But we need to understand the clinical process about people who have never felt loved. Being able to experience love is another whole story. But I think the intent needs to be there. Yeah. Yeah. Because again, like you say, it can be overwhelming. Oh, of course. Yeah. Even having eye contact sometimes. Yeah. By definition, Jackie, by definition, doesn't mean that the intent can't be there though. No. But there needs to be a clinical understanding. Yeah. Yeah. I can remember what one of the looks after kids that we had that, you know, if ever, if ever I was, I don't know, making him feel a little bit uncomfortable, maybe with emotions, he would talk to me through a door or behind a wall. He couldn't even stand in front of me when he was talking. One of the, there was two times that we used to have really, you know, good conversations. One was when I was driving because I could only look forward and I couldn't actually look at him when he was talking. And the other was he used to help me cook Sunday dinner. So if he was stirring the gravy and doing something, he would be talking with me, but not actually face to face. It was one of the things I think that he always struggled with. It was a big change for him sometimes, I think. Yeah. Because I suspect the biggest message she got was around not existing. Yeah. Yeah. It literally was as if he needed to hide away or just disappear. Yeah. The only way you could survive. Yeah. Yeah. Needless to say, it didn't last that long. What been? Him staying behind the doors and things like that. He did a good job then by a soundsmith. Well, it took a while. It did take a while, but with lots of exactly like you say, love and compassion, you know, he did come out of his shell. Yeah. It can be very tested because, you know, people and particularly this sort of area we're talking about, the clients will try and make you shame them if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. And it's familiar and they know how to be in that situation. Yeah. Yeah. So I do think there's been really good clinical understanding of how to work with shame and the treatment of shame. Yeah. Yeah. And like you said, there are some good things written. So on your website, what is your website? Well, just for the people that are listening, if they want to go and look it. Oh, right. I think it's on the Manchester Institute of Psychotherapy website, but I also have a personal website called bobcook.org. And of course, I have a YouTube with 300 odd videos. Yeah. So the article, I think, is on the Manchester Institute of Psychotherapy. It could be on the Bob Cook one. So I'm not sure. I wrote it a long time ago because I specialised a lot on the treatment of shame. Yeah. Lots being written a bit on it now with that goodness. But when I started off in 1985, it wasn't even in the psychotherapy training programme I embarked on. Now in 2002, it's a much more talked about documented subject. Yeah. And, you know, I think, again, I think you are right. I mean, I was thinking when you said earlier on, but I think most conditions that people come with, they bring an element of shame with them. And often a really big, a big one, well, what it gets played out on is a shame of having to come to therapy in the first place. Yeah. In other words, being vulnerable, feeling something wrong with them, but they're crazy. That's why they're coming to therapy. It's like a double-edged sword. Yes. That has to be addressed over time. Yeah. And I think, you know, you touched on it there, that vulnerability is kind of connected with shame a lot of the time. Yeah. Because, you know, the way that a lot of people do a shame is to go underground, to hide, to attempt to not be there, not to be exposed. Yeah. All the things that we know about the consequences of shame. So we need to understand that whole perspective, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking when you were talking then about, you know, shame and trauma and all those sorts of things. You know, my son is ex-military and I know that you served in the military and think, you know, that survivor guilt and things like that. When you look at shame, it's all encompassing with an awful lot of things. You know, if we as a human being survive something that other people don't, there's going to be a lot of guilt and shame around that. Oh, definitely. I mean, all the wars all over the globe. Yeah. And, you know, you're in a, you survive and your members of the tank that you're in don't survive. Then besides post-traumatic stress disorder, you're more, you're going to probably have, you're going to probably have survived for guilt as well. So it is one of those things, like you said, that it, you know, the majority of people that walk through the door will have, you know, an amount of shame. Yeah. Well, it could go as far as to say that we live in a shaming society and maybe there's a lot in that. But, you know, I think that the consequences of shame, which is often linked to trauma and the way we're talking here can run very deep in many of the mental health conditions we're talking about. Yeah. That's why I think the topic we're talking about is so essential to think about and the clinicians, they've got many places to go to read about shame. And there's many books written on the treatment of shame now that weren't around 40 odd years ago when I started. Yeah. And I think, yeah, again, you do come up with some little gems, Bob. I think we do live in a very shaming society now. Oh, absolutely. One down society. Yeah. Particularly with what's, you know, in the news a lot of the time now and everything. Yeah. That's why I love transactional analysis and the, you know, the basic level of, you know, protection, permission, importance. And I'm okay. You're okay. And that it's, it's, I, one of the first things I always say to clients is that, you know, I, I'm not the expert in this. I don't have all the answers. It's something that we work on together. You're the expert on you. That's a wonderful thing to say. And, you know, I'm laughing because, sorry, I'm not laughing. I'm smiling at the thought I'm going to say because it's a wonderful thing to say. And at another level, clients come to therapy because they want Father Christmas. In other words, they want the client to help them. Yeah. I know what you're saying is true. And there's the desire and the hope that they'll, that therapists will understand and sort of have a magic one. Yeah. And I hate to disappoint my clients a lot of this. I know, I know, I come from a different place really. And this isn't right or wrong completely. And it's, you know, it's just different. I, if I have to say that, what you've just said, I will say it later. Yeah. In most cases, because I quite like the idea of what I call idealized transference where the person can actually have some hope and belief that, you know, I have a magic one. And the reason for that, and of course, many people would argue from where you come from is a different, is a more, I don't know, preferable clinical direction. However, I want to get to the younger self, the child eager state. And the best way to do that, I think, is to have the client on my side. Yeah, 100%. So it's, you know, it pops the same and different clinical thinking. Yes. Yeah. But around shame, you do need to get to the younger self. And you need to get to the whole process I've talked about, about who's shame is it? Because then at least they can then give it back. And realize it was never their shame in the first place. Yeah, which is a really powerful thing. Yeah. Things like that. They can only deal with the therapist's help because the therapist needs to be more powerful than the person who shamed him in the first place. Yeah. To provide the protection. Yeah. See, again, I'm thinking outside the box here, but when a client does hand back the shame, you know, I've experienced it personally with certain clients, that then there's another whole heap lord of shame that comes because they feel like they've wasted so much of their life carrying somebody else's shame. And then it's kind of like, oh, we're back to this layer of shame. Yeah. And it literally, it's like, right, feels gold, somehow you think you're getting somewhere. And then it comes back. Yeah. Game is very insidious. Yeah. I used to run polo. I used to train horses in the sort of realm of polo matches and things like that a long time ago. And I was taught how to and you know, how to actually do a main or how you do it. You cross over hairs and hairs and you make the knots and you do it very carefully. And it's a bit like shame. You have to follow and untangle the knot and it might go on forever. Yeah. It's a very, very shame. It's very, very insidious and it sticks to the soul. So we need to, you know, do some soul. We need to cleanse the soul most often. So with a shame base. And often when I used to work with this population, I used to use visualizations a lot where the client would visualize cleansing their soul out of the shame and putting it, putting it in a very deep well. So it would just go away forever and bring in the lightness and the love and the sunshine. I love that. I love visualization. I think it is really powerful. Yeah. Especially in the treatment of shame, I think. Yeah. Thank you, Bob. I enjoyed that as always. Thank you. Until next time. Yes. I look forward to whatever the next subject is. We've got a long list. I've got two A4 pieces of paper, Bob, with lots of titles on it. But as I know, I sent the titles to you. I won't go down a spiral for feeling ashamed that I've forgotten because I've given that process over to you. Because you're absolutely right. The one thing I shame is absolutely, is shame is like layers of an onion. And you need to go down the layers of the onion very, very, very, you know, like cleanse it in deeply and slowly and eventually find the horrible back kernel, the dark kernel that is at the bottom and cleanse that whole process. Yeah. Do you think, just to finish that, do you think people understand that it's shame that they're feeling a lot of the time? No. I know that's what I was thinking. They feel worthless. They feel lacking self-esteem. They feel not right. They feel not okay. They feel bizarre. Things are their fault. I can never get it right. Yeah. Those are the sort of thoughts and feelings. And until somebody may, a therapist may do this, may label that as a shame, a whole process, where did you get that all from? Yeah. They may never think of about it in that way. Yeah. So maybe that's one of the first things is an awareness of shame. And thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I keep going back to that because, because a lifetime of believing you are awful. You are not right. You are the wrong person. It's your fault. It's a lifetime of purgatory. Yeah. I don't, I would need to release people. Help crimes release themselves from that whole person. Give it back to where it should be. Yeah. And that's not in their soul. No. And, you know, I do firmly believe that love and compassion is if we don't run out of love and compassion, we can give that to anybody and everybody, whether it's in the therapy room or outside of the therapy room. Couldn't agree more. Thank you so much, Bob. Until next time. Take care. Bye bye. Speak to you soon. Bye. You've been listening to The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'll be back next week with another episode.