 Welcome to the Science of Healing Summit. I am Dr. Shamini Jan, founder and CEO of the Consciousness and Healing Initiative. I'm thrilled to bring to our discussion today a dynamic duo in healing. You may have seen them before. In fact, you might recognize Dr. Paul Mills, our co-host, as part of this dynamic duo. I've known Paul for many decades and was absolutely thrilled to be his mentee at UC San Diego. Paul has been serving at UC San Diego for many decades and is currently professor of public health, where he is also a director of the Center for Excellence in Research Training and Health. He is also the director of the Chopra Center for Well-Being, the research director, and I'm so pleased that he has joined the board of the Consciousness and Healing Initiative. The second half of this dynamic duo also probably needs no introduction if you happen to have seen her on previous shift connections, as well as Gaia TV, to name just a few places where you may have encountered her wisdom in the past. We have with us Reverend Tiffany Barsotti, an internationally renowned medical intuitive, spiritual healer, clinician, and researcher of subtle energy and biofield therapies. Tiffany was pleased to study with Drs. Norm Shealy, as well as with Carolyn Miss in her early training, and has taken that wisdom and put it further with her own theories of biofield science and health. And today, they're going to talk about a topic that's near and dear to their heart, which is personal self-integration. I'm so excited for this conversation, Paul and Tiffany. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and your time with us today. You're welcome, Charmaine. It's such a pleasure to be able to participate in the shift in this way. Truly, love any of our time that we get to interact with you. Thank you. Yeah, let's do. Yes, I agree completely. This is a divine treat. And I love the topic that you've chosen to discuss today. I think for many of us, integration is really on our minds. We've talked a lot about trauma, for example, in the last couple of years. And it's great that we are coming to kind of a greater public awareness of things like trauma. And perhaps after trauma, we start thinking about what integration means, right? And it's not just trauma, as I'm sure you'll share with us. It's spiritual experience. It's anything that can sometimes take us out of the ordinary to capture an aspect of being or a process that we may not always come into contact with, right? And then the question is, what happens next? So you both teach something that you call personal self-integration. Can you help us understand what that is? So I wish we could actually take ownership for the creation of it. We have certainly added to the body of work. Personal self-integration has deep roots, which we'll speak about in a moment, but to answer exactly what it is, is both a modality and a process for making the unconscious conscious. And Carl Jung had a beautiful quote that says, until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate. And man, we really see this play out in our world. And as you mentioned in traumas and how they can kind of recycle their experiences in our lives. And until we actually heal from the traumas, we're usually recreating the same stuff with different people, different scenarios, but really the same roots of trauma. So the integration piece allows for the, I'll say almost a completion aspect. We're never complete. I don't mean to make it sound like we're, this is done because integration takes work and it's a continual process. The beauty of personal self-integration is learning about the subconscious selves, the other parts of our personalities, the different voices in our heads or experiences of different psyches going on. So that I'll leave it brief right there. Yeah, if I could add a bit. So you mentioned Carl Jung and he also spoke a lot about the phenomenon of individuation. We need to become individuated to become a complete human being. Abraham Maslow called itself actualization. To really completely do those processes to their fullness, one needs to gain information, access to and in a regular communication with what is commonly called the subconscious or the unconscious minds, erroneously sometimes in the West. And the unconscious mind is rich, not only with information, but actually with selves unto themselves, personalities, and that's what this work is about, bridging that and eliminating that, let's say that divide. That's amazing. You know, obviously it brings to mind, particularly when you talk about Carl Jung and the notion of selves and subconscious selves, it brings to mind, I think for many people, the notion of archetypes. So how does that fit into the PSI or personal self-integration model? Thank you for that. I like to describe the subconscious selves. If you think about the fields around the body, there's the causal field, which we really don't have much say about in our waking life and states of consciousness. The one that we start to have say in is the mental field. So we have the mental, the emotional or astral, one in the same, then the etheric bodies and I see two layers clairvoyantly at four inches and about two inches, and then also the physical body. So and Carl Jung also spoke about the animus and anime of the male and female archetypes, if you will. And that's also included in personal self-integration. There's a male self and a female self, which we can speak a little bit more in the beginning because it has a lot to do with trust, how we build trust in relationships. But the piece that I'd like to complete here in your question is the archetypes that it's like these selves are almost archetypal leaders of these fields. So the mental has a mental self. The astral has an astral self. And then the etheric has a map to all of them, but also we have a body self. We have the outer self, which is our personality. We have our high self, which is the vertical connection, which takes cultivation in our lifetime. So all of these together, and of course the male and the female self. So all together, it helps to create more of a holistic view of our fields, archetypally speaking, because when you meet them, my goodness, there's so much information archetypally. It's like each of them have a myth unto themselves that they can tell you stories upon stories about where they come from, what influences them, where their fears are. It's just a really fascinating and where their joys are. How can they can help us be better creators? That's just fascinating. And I love the way that you connected these selves with different aspects of our energetic and spiritual and, you know, and causal bodies. I've not generally heard people talk about archetypes in that way. So it's it's absolutely fascinating. And clearly there's a process that you all teach and know that it's not just about getting to know these aspects of yourself, which is probably like the first step, right? You get to meet all of these cells. You get to see how they're represented, perhaps in the body, in the energy bodies, in the subtle realms. But the integration piece is really key as well. And I know that you have been doing work with students and clients for many years using this and similar models. I'm wondering, actually, if you can share with us just maybe even a quick story of how this comes to comes to actually bring someone into either a higher state of self development or solve a clinical problem. Because I know that you've worked, for example, with clients of significant, you know, mental distress, right? So I guess the question would be, why do we need to know these selves? And what happens when we do, right? What happens when we actually integrate all these cells? What's the payoff for a person? The payoff, let me begin there, is an inner collaboration. What I like to say is that it's very difficult to do group consciousness until we actually have an organized self consciousness. Or through how do we expect ourselves to do group until we can do our self? And at least in a way that doesn't cause a lot of infighting or sabotage or things like that. And the key, something that very poignantly I've learned in working with this for as many years and working with many people going through this, is that typically where sabotage happens is if we don't have alignment within ourselves and we can be in something that we're extremely passionate about. But if one of our subconscious selves isn't on board for that, which we as the outer self go to actually create, there's going to be obstacles and sabotages and things that just cause all kinds of unrest. So I also want to say that, you know, oftentimes we're not stuck. We just may be out of alignment and then we may need to deal with the fears that could be coming up as a result of if a person believes in reincarnation. And even if they don't, they've got past lives that are sort of adding to the domains of all of this fabric of our unconscious and conscious. And even if you don't believe in reincarnation, we, no matter how you slice it, we've been on Earth's recycling program for five billion years. So we all have a lineage in some way, shape or form. So we've got these habits. So a clinical story that I would like to share with you that kind of blew my mind and I had to argue with myself about this. I was guided. I was working with a woman who was a is still an ER doctor, but was highly suicidal and I was in a fabulous grace, which I am so grateful that I was her confident because she had a lot of failed confidence in her own industry with her peers. And she literally trusted no one anymore. So I was I felt like it was true her last stop. And many times we would speak many times a day because they just felt like there was so much risk. I was given very clear instructions, Tiffany, you must do personal self integration with this woman. Well, this woman was dealing with multiple personalities, their PID. This is something that it was quite obvious. And she had a personality that wanted to take her life. And that one was of was honestly the one that was in front the most when she was not at work. And so it was interesting because she could perform the most amazing tasks and do the most amazing things as an physician than many other people wouldn't do. But when it came to her being offline of work and doing her own life, it was a bit of a disaster. It was very noisy. So when I was given this this direction, you must do this. I was no, it was really a command. I did not want to follow because wait a minute, we're going to we're going to introduce more personalities to this already fractured personality that we're dealing with and long story short. We worked with each and every one, which with each story with the different places in my office when I had an office that where the different personality wrote differently, the way that they reacted to another personality, they needed to be in a different place in the room. And we just worked with every layer and gave that opportunity for the voice to be heard to. We just I just treated it like any other personal self integration because the the objective is to hear from these parts and to learn where there's comfort and discomfort, where there's alignment, where there's a lack of and that's the integration. That's the because we can know something. But what are we actually doing about it? It's part of the journey to know thyself. Yes. So what ended up happening is she got better. And I'm glad to say that she's still with us and she's thriving and doing really, really well in in her world and from an integrated place. I have no idea if she's still doing the work or not. It doesn't matter. She's able to keep it together. So that's an extreme case, but it it's nonetheless. When you indeed, it's beautiful. And it's so much wisdom in what you just shared and certainly a very strong example there. That perhaps part of the journey, it sounds like that one goes through when they do PSI is first to open to listen to all of these selves. So to speak, these different aspects of being or beings that are inside of us that, like you said, in the case of this this woman, the ER physician, that there was a very dominant side, right? And that that was sort of taking over the show. And it sounds like you were able to guide her to open to other aspects of her being these other aspects, even of her subconscious and foster. So would you call it more of a balance? Does balance sort of come into play with integration? I mean, you know, sometimes those terms are used interchangeably. And I'm just curious. It sounds like the first step is just to know and to listen. And then, as you say, there is this alignment process, right? No, some insight into that answer here's a parallel. All of us live in some kind of family unit and a household unit with multiple people living in it. Each of those folks in those households have different personalities, different wants, different needs, different desires, different fears. When we live in a household where we know each other, we've come to love and accept each other. Regardless of the needs, wants, desires, fears, we've developed a harmony. This is really a very good example of parallel to the PSI work. We in our subconscious also have rich, literal personalities, literally beings with their own existence, independent of and related to our outer self as a personality. And this work brings awareness to those personalities. A sense of understanding and love, compassion and connectivity and the forms bonds that then the idea you were saying earlier where we have conflict and we're stuck because one part of ourselves is sabotaging another part, all that begins to resolve. And it really helps release joy, more productivity, and more engagement in everyday living. Thank you, Paul. That's beautifully put. And it just reminds me of what Tiffany said earlier, which is how can you have harmony out there if you don't have harmony in here? Right. And as a clinical psychologist, I'm aware that often when we have subconscious drives or impulses that we may think aren't, you know, aren't aligned with our spiritual selves or aren't aligned in this way or whatever, sometimes people repress those, right? And that causes problems. So when we're not listening to the wants and desires of the subconscious selves, it doesn't mean we have to act on all of them, right? But it's just like Paul, you said in a family, you have a, you know, maybe a two year old child that says, I want that ice cream. And you say, well, you've got to have your dinner first. You know, let's have a discussion about this. I mean, that's a very simplistic way of describing it. But the point is you don't just shut the child down, right? So that's really key. And as you know, as you're talking, I'm sure for some of the folks who may be watching who may be familiar with some of this type of work, they may wonder, what's the difference between PSI and something like IFS or, you know, internal family systems, you know, drawn some parallels already. Any comments on that for people who may be wondering? Yeah, absolutely. And a couple of things that I'd like to say that you also pointed out, and I will get to the IFS relationship. Everyone usually has a self that is loudest at the microphone. And it can be like a bully to the rest of them. And and every aspect of ourselves deserves to be heard, just like anyone in the family unit deserves to be heard. And so it really just an affords. Actually, we saw Enlightenment emerge. Not that Enlightenment is like a certificate. You hang on your wall once you get it. It's like forever there. That's that's not a diploma. It's something that is constantly evolving in as we evolve. And so we achieve different ways of getting there. IFS, which I really have a profound respect for the internal family systems. It is beautiful. It's less spiritual. It's less looking at the source of where these parts are coming from. It's and if you do the comparison, like if you look at the personal self integration wheel, there are some likes, but it's not dealing with so much in the field. Now, I'm going to say my belief, my theory is that unrest happens in the field before it happens, where it comes out of our mouth or it's something that takes a disruption in the physical body as an illness or a disease or something like that. I I'm going to spend probably the rest of my life figuring out what these mechanisms of action are that happen in the field first before it actually takes into some sort of form. And that's also a difference in IFS. IFS is looking at scenarios of how people get along. And yes, there are internal voices that we make friends with that we learn to not become victimized by and all of that. So it's a beautiful system. I would say personal self integration is just going a step beyond that type of work for people who are really interested in doing a deeper integration beyond a transformation, which I hope we can get into as well, because there's a big piece with that. IFS can help bring a lot of the unconscious to the conscious and sort of release the faucet a little bit on how it has been running, running amuck. So it can really point at ways of of being in the world or in a family dynamic that can help wake a person up. So it's like you become aware of the trauma and then you can start to work on it or you understand the source of the genesis from where things are coming from in that dynamic. So there's relationship, but there are some differences as well. Yeah, I would add, too, that that that type of work is PSI is sort of taking that work internally, getting to know our whole inner dimension and ourselves. And that and I fence more the outer players from our from our biography. Yes, yes. But they also just have an inner relationship, too. But yeah, I mean, they're inner relationships. I think there are a number of things that you mentioned that are key for us to understand. And one is that there is a real connection when you're doing PSI work, that you're really also exploring not just the connection of the subconscious selves in the sort of cognitive or even historical way, right? But you're actually connecting with the energies of these selves. And so part of the alignment process and this integration process isn't just sort of the cognitive alignment of subconscious selves, but an energetic and spiritual dimension of that integration. And of course, Tiffany, you said something very provocative, which we must get into, which I believe was something along integration beyond personal transformation. So help us help us unpack that a little bit. What do you mean by that? Because I think, again, this is everyone's mind and we always want to transform here. We want to transform the world out there. Most of us aren't really integrated in the way that most psychologists define integration. So first, it begs the question, what do you mean when you say transformation and what do you mean when you say integration? Thank you. We're always transforming. I mean, a change is the constant, right? And we're always developing. Sometimes it feels like we're developing the same. Sometimes it feels like we're actually getting somewhere. And in stress, we pretty much all regress. So those those are opportunities to be able to be able to watch ourselves objectively as well and subjectively. So transformation is it's a sought process. And it's most people, I don't think the shift audience would say that they're afraid of the word transformation. It's probably the reason that you're subscribing here. It's one of the reasons I'm a subscriber to shift is because I actually like transformation. Some people are like, you know, they fear it like change, right? So the transformation is really such a beautiful piece. And also what I've noticed, especially a lot with ceremonial medicines and plant medicines, there's so much emphasis on the transformation and the transformative experience. But there's not enough in my professional opinion of the integration. I think the ratio needs to be swapped. If the if the Pareto principle of 80, 20 is playing out of 80 percent transformation experience and 20 percent integration. Please, I beg to my colleagues, let's swap this. Let's work together to swap this ratio because it will be so much more long lasting and less of a painful experience for people to understand integration before they have a transformative experience. And then to bookend the transformation with more integration because we know so much more as a result of the transformation. The wisdom just goes to a whole other level. Thank you for that. Paul, comments on that. Well, as far as the wisdom and the transformation, you know, I want to put some of this in perspective with what you know as integrative medicine. Shalman, you did your PhD dissertation research on energy healing that at the time that field was called integrative medicine before that and since then it's become called integrative health. But before your work, as you know, it was a complementary alternative medicine. Before that it was whole person medicine. Where did all this come from? All these ideas that we've adopted in our biomedical model came from many Eastern traditions, Tibetan medicine, Ayurvedic medicine, Chinese medicine, Native American medicine. These are more ancient traditions. And we inherited from them lots of wisdom, meditation, yoga, acupuncture, herbs. But the truth is, many of these traditions also spoke about the cells that inhabit our internal domain. They didn't call it personal self integration, but they spoke of these domains. Tiff has a lot of familiarity with how the ancient Egyptians spoke about this knowledge. Shri Aurobindo, a very famous sage in India, spoke a lot about what he called our many selves. And from his point of view, it was important to get to know these cells, integrate them, have a transformation and integration before we could then further evolve. And I think this is the kin back to what I said earlier, the idea of individuation. We have to become somebody before we can become nobody in a spiritual sense. PSI helps people become somebody in the sense of getting to know ourselves in an integrated, holistic fashion. Then, for example, Aurobindo speaks about, as you might know, this evolving transformation to higher levels of mind consciousness. He speaks of the higher mind, you know, the intuitive mind, the illumined mind. I think the overmind and then the supermind, the supermental, which is essentially the level of the mind of the Godhead, which we are all connected to all those domains already simultaneously, but it's bringing consciousness to those connections. In order to have those connections, we have to build the foundation. And that's what things like PSI, Rudolf Steiner, another famous esotericist more from the West, who studied a lot in the East. He spoke to the different selves and it goes on and on. So I wanted to emphasize that because we brought a lot of wisdom from other traditions to help transform our biomedicine, our approach to medicine and self care in the, let's say, the West. But this is one of the domains of knowledge that wasn't brought over properly, not in its fullness. And so there are folks like us who have been learning it and we're teaching it. And we see the evidence time and time again. It's quite beautiful what happens to people who bring this work on into themselves, the transformation and then their capacity to move forward in their own lives. This is so key what you're saying is so key. And first of all, thank you for helping us draw the links between some of the ancient traditions, both in the Eastern and Western you know, areas and the discussions that they had about the selves because most of us, you know, may not be aware of that or we may think about pantheistic religions, for example, like Hinduism and, you know, and all of the gods and goddesses. And of course, that, you know, that was the Greeks and the Romans and all that as well. And so many people describe those deities as archetypes, which one can have an argument amount, right? It just depends on how you define archetype. But the point being that the integration of these selves is key to to be able to parse any kind of transformational experience that you might have. And so it leads us back into, as you said, creating this foundation is important because say you do meet the Godhead, right? Like you were mentioning, Tiffany, and we had we had some lively discussions in the summit about plant medicines and the need for integration. So thank you for naming that. I think, you know, even those who are forwarding this clinically, as well as research wise, understand that there is a need to more deeply explore integration, both the science of it and the practice of it, right, when people are using plant medicines. But this can happen in a meditation retreat, too. It can happen, you know, in many different ways where we have this experience of God consciousness or our own kind, whatever we want to call that, right? And if we haven't done this kind of work, it could just be a fleeting, cool experience that we have a craving for that we want to go back to, you know, there are many discussions about what we can call spiritual bypassing. You know, I don't know if you have any comments on that. So it sounds like the PSI work helps us to be prepared for those experiences and then more skillfully, perhaps even return to those exalted states of being, so to speak, right, in a way that we can bring it back into earth. You know, you spoke of Sri Aurobindo and the mother. And as you know, they were very clear that part of our process right now as human beings is to live in a way that we can bring heaven on earth. Right, that there really is no separation. So this integration work is key. So, you know, we talked a little bit. I think we've kind of talked around, in many ways, some of the benefits of what one experiences when they go through PSI. Are there any contraindications, you know, like we talked about plant medicines, for example, and I had asked the panelists, are there contraindications for working with plant medicines? How do you know? How do you know whether you're called to do that work? And it would be the same, I think, with PSI. Are there any any things that you think kind of speak to? Oh, yeah, you would be a good candidate for PSI, or this might be a good a good thing for you to try. And conversely, are there any situations where you would say PSI is not a recommended process? Yes, absolutely. Thank you for calling this out. As I mentioned earlier, I had to have an internal argument with myself because that would have been an absolute no-no from a clinical point of view as a professional to think that I'm going to add more to the soup. Like, yeah, but it ended up helping. That said, you know, COVID changed a lot of lives as far as how we do things now. And Paul and I have been running PSI online as an online course. And it's invitation only. We go through an interview process to make sure that this is really as as much as we can make sure from a distance. And if there's anything questionable that is that comes up, I might make other recommendations, and this is where I'm really listening deeply to my intuition. As is Paul, that is this the next right step for a person? So the invitation is made in a wholehearted, whole awareness of a person. And if something happens as a result, such as traumas getting awakened, which happened in our last cohort of people, a trauma got awoken in a person. And it was a really ultimately an amazing healing opportunity. And we also want to make sure that the person has the professional infrastructure around them to be able to support since we're not in an office situation. I can't get my hands on that person and necessarily do anything. So that's a really important thing, that sort of bookending of making sure that a person is well supported if they're not in our physical space. So the and I do want to say that for the person that had the trauma emerge, we have this beautiful thing that we call the prime directive of the subconscious mind. And that is nothing will come to the surface of our awareness unless we have the skills and tools to deal with it. That might be hard to accept sometimes, but it's true. We are all masters. And I like to say that by the time we have gone through a few things, but I like to say that especially when I do consults for people, and it's just like their life is a disaster. Everything their relationships are a wreck. Their personal finances are in a wreck at every facet of life, their family life, everything's a wreck. And I was like, OK, good news is only the universe, God, the creator, the can make this much of a mess out of anything at once. So there must be something right at the precipice of change. It's that hero's journey, right, where we're asked to be responding to the call. So we can either ignore the call, pretend that the phone isn't ringing. We can go pick it up and go later for you. I'm not talking to you. We can we can decide to hang up on those calls. But there will be another call to action. And I just want to say from personal self experience on the personal experience is that don't ignore those first hits. Please don't. I mean, my my wax got bigger and harder because I wouldn't listen at time. And so just, you know, be attentive to what's being called forth, because this woman who had the trauma come up, it was something she didn't know had happened in her childhood. And what ended up breaking free of that is freedom. She got freedom as a result of really coming into the awareness of something that it's sort of been running in the background. And personal self integration isn't going to be the only thing that does this, right? You run programs that have unearthed our our archaeological digs that have actually yielded the the gold statue that we get to come out from underground saying, hey, I dug this up. And this is my monument that I actually did some freaking work. So I really appreciate that. I want to add something to if you mentioned, you know, the hero's journey, the heroine's journey, that that metamith, which is something I'm particularly fond of. And really, if you think about that metamith as a journey, when a person's on the hero's journey, the heroine's journey, all those different stages is when that person is encountering aspects of their inner selves, aspects of their inner dynamics, their strengths, their weaknesses, their fears, their courage, their wants, their desires. That's not just you as the outer self on the journey. You're getting all that from this massive population that exists within you. And one of the beautiful things about this work, too, is that while most people have a sense that they say I and they're, you know, reflecting all that inus, the thoughts, the feelings. When you when you dig into PSI, you begin to realize that that I-ness is actually a composite of many different senses of I, different wants and needs, desires and fears and so forth. And as you have that insight and then you begin to decode it and break it out, you have such a deep recognition of what part of your life has been inspired by which aspect of yourself amongst the host of other pieces that you have insight into. Then, honestly, coming with that is a sense of compassion and love for your own self deeper, but also as you begin to understand that part of yourself's needs and wants, you then have more consciousness to begin to fulfill it. And there's a whole fascinating area of PSI. We won't get into too much here, but I just want to share is that the different domains of consciousness that a human being has within himself or herself originates from different domains of what we could call the natural world, the different kingdoms. Some aspects of our self consciousness comes from the angelic kingdom. Some of our self consciousness comes from what's called the David kingdom. Some comes from the elemental kingdom. And then the fourth category is often termed outer spatial because it means its consciousness within ourselves. That actually is from off planets that we brought to us here. Another system of stars and planets. And each one of those domains, as you could imagine, has different characteristics. When we think of angelic consciousness, it's such a different feeling. There's the lightness, the love you recognize that in other people. They are so angelic because they're carrying more of that consciousness within themselves, even if they're not fully awake to it. There are people who are more David, which gets more to creativity, energy and they need freedom and expression. These are the kinds of things people begin to learn and understand of the rich architecture that we are as a human being. And I think that gets back to what you said, Shalini, this with the mother in Urbindo and so many others to bring heaven and earth together. The earth part is our humanity and our deep, deep inheritance as human beings. We have to wake up to that before we can fully link to the to the heavens, the divinity and then that's just the beginning and then we're off further development and unfoldment, universes the limit. So beautiful. Thank you for sharing all of that. It's it's incredible. You know, it's just thinking that as a psychologist. I've noticed that and I know we've had these conversations before Integrative Health, we've been talking about that, the way research has been done, for example, a lot of focus on the outer the outer metrics, the biomarkers, the things like that. And there might be people even watching this that are, Hey, I thought this was the science of healing something. Well, this is, you know, this is important that we're having this conversation so people can understand that this is a psychological science. And it is an ancient one as well as a modern one. And while we haven't been sitting here talking about research outcome studies in this conversation, everything that you're talking about is in fact a science of the self. And just to bring it back to what you shared earlier that, you know, to know thyself is to heal thyself, to heal thyself is to be present for for everything else that you are again a part of. But it all starts with here. It starts with knowing ourselves, getting to know them. You certainly just in this journey in this hour of speaking with you, it's and just looking at you and knowing who you are in the world. Because I happen to be privileged to know you both. It's clear that it's a very joyful journey. You know, the PSI journey is a joyful journey. And I appreciated Tiffany, what you shared also that when one embarks in this journey, first of all, they have consultations and discussions with you. And in general, one should be mindful that part of the journey of integration is sometimes the unearthing of what no longer serves. And so to make sure that you have the reserves and the support systems in place, should these things come up, we can joyfully release them to with support, right? It's wonderful. So how can people learn more if they are interested in learning more about PSI, about your work? Where where should they go? On the Heal and Thrive website, there's an opportunity under the resources section to ask for a conversation to ask for discussion so that we can initiate and feel into if this is the right step for right now. And there are people that I've worked with before they come into to do that group work. The other thing that I have found incredibly transformational and integrative is working as a group. And I for years was just doing this as one on one besides being in a retreat setting, doing this intense work. The retreat setting was really unnerving because we would do all this really intense work and then everybody would just go home. What happened? Are you OK? Yeah, yeah. You know, I have this my heart reaches out and and there's if I don't have the ability to follow up in things like that. So it's yeah, that was a little difficult. But the and now to take it out of the one on one atmosphere and bring it into the group, there is absolutely no denying how much more healing happens in group. Then and then it's also through the the whole course. There's also one on one time. But the the point is that it's and both that that group and the individual processes and maybe some things don't want to be shared in a group setting. Fine, there's there's space for for all of that. So people can learn more about the the course and we're kicking it off April. Is it I think end of April or first of May? I forget which date it is now, but that will be. We just don't publicly put it out there. This is a discussion for it's such a timely one, given what is going on in the field of psychology in plant medicine. And I've seen things go really right and really wrong. And there's a responsibility for those of us that are guides and teachers and and helpers right now to be super present to the inadequacies of how we're working and also the abilities to do to rise to the level of occasion to really help. And and so that's that's really our goal is to help to facilitate meet people where they are and then let's do the journey together. Hmm, thank you. And yes, a very timely conversation on integration. And I want to thank you both for all of the light and love and service that you give to so many over so many years. It's a delight to know you. And this conversation was a delight as well. Thank you both so much. Thank you. Thank you, Shomini. Thanks for having us. Yes, appreciate you so much.