 Hello and welcome to the Indian Writers Forum and NewsClick. Today we are joined by Sangeeta Barua Pisharati, the author of the new book, ASAM, the Accord the Discord, which traces in detail the history of the ASAM Accords and the events that happened after that, culminating in the national register of citizens. Thank you, Sangeeta, for joining us. Thank you. Sangeeta Sothi's book, in this book, you've actually gone into great detail. In fact, starting many centuries ago, actually, and tracing the causes which led to the ASAM agitation initially. As well as today what we see with the national register of citizens, the Citizenship Amendment Bill, and the impact these issues have had on people in ASAM. So before we go into some of those details, just to talk about a very current situation that we are facing right now. So after the NRC list was released and 19 lakh people were excluded, what has been the response from the ground, so to speak? How are the various sections receiving this issue? See, already a lot of news reports have covered this. Nobody is happy. So people who initially supporting the NRC are not happy saying a lot of undocumented migrants have found place while the genuine citizens are out. Then the people who were opposed to it are also saying, see, we said so. So this is like even say, if you see politically also, none of the parties are primarily to begin with the BJP, which has been batting for it, but not happy. So the ground situation right now is, apart from if you say the political thing, nobody is happy already, politicking has begun at a different level. But if you talk about common people, they are actually staring at a situation where there is a lot of uncertainty, people who are out. So they will have to go to the Foreigner's Tribunal now for an appeal and only yesterday there was another amendment to the Foreigner's Tribunal order which says that it is mandatory actually in a way. So if you don't go for an appeal, the DM within your jurisdiction can actually seek an opinion from the Foreigner's Tribunal. So in a way it is all now everybody has to go through the Foreigner's Tribunal procedure and they also don't know, suppose the tribunals declare you a foreigner, will you be taken to the detention centres, which was the case earlier. So and if you are not and you are still declared a foreigner, you have to go to the higher courts. So which means a lot of money, a lot of money, a lot of ability to face these situations and most of these people actually, if you see their economic background, the poor people. People also without very little documents. So there is fear on the ground right now if you talk about common people. And there is also the issue of the Citizenship Amendment bill which has made it all the more urgent. We had Amit Shal's statement recently which said that except for the state Muslims and everybody else would be incorporated in various ways. So one of the interesting things you have traced in the book is the fact that the issue in Assam never had the kind of communal overtones which you associate with the rest of the country. It was never a Hindu-Muslim issue per se and there was far more complexity to it. So is that situation still prevailing on the ground or has all these recent developments polarised, brought in much more polarisation? See it's still, I can still say that you know the communal angle, the Hindu-Muslim angle is still very low the ladder if you talk to the common people on the ground. For them this whole thing is a migration issue. So that is why even organisations like ASU or some students which spearheaded the six year long anti-foreign agitation from 1979 to 1985 they also openly say that it is not against any Hindus or Muslims. People who came to Assam say before March 24, 1971 that exclusive cut of date for Assam, for citizenship they'll stay on. Others, whoever they were Hindus or Muslims will have to leave. So that is why there was a massive protest beginning with Assam against the Citizenship Amendment Bill. And finally the BJP couldn't bring it because there was so much opposition and we saw that only in the Northeast while in the rest of India the discussion was more around NRC. But this was another angle that we should not miss because that is what will give you the full idea about whether people are actually looking at it as a Hindu-Muslim issue or not. So that's why I feel that the protest against the Citizenship Bill in the Northeast starting with Assam is a very important cog in the entire thing. So also now let's go back a bit to some of the key aspects of the book. So you trace the history of the Assam agitation like you mentioned from 79 to 85. And the Accords in 85 were signed at a moment and there was a great amount of hope like your point, some uncertainty also. But also there was some amount of hope some sense of belief that Assam's grievances, legitimate grievances of being ignored by the central government for years for instance would finally be resolved. And today after all these years in a situation where we have detention camps we have polarization and we have a situation where people have been turned against each other and like you said the poorest are actually the ones who are suffering the most having to spend huge amounts of money in court for instance. So do you see things could have happened any other way after the Accords as in did this necessarily have to be the path in the last 20 or 30 years which ended up where we are today? See that is what you know you have to if you go back you know to trace the roots you just see that the biggest you know the problem in the entire thing was that the non-implementation of the main clauses of Assam Accord or on a very half-shot kind of an effort. So a couple of times the electoral roles were in Assam were you know revised but it was not to the satisfaction of the aggrieved parties. But when you see finally it ended up in that D or doubtful voter thing which is the happened. So the election commission and even during TN sessions time also there were a lot of efforts were made but you know it was the congress government at the time or the other governments also they just couldn't couldn't take that message to the people. So that was there and then they and that also helped in way you know the right-wing forces to also come up in the state in a big way because people voted hugely in the 2016 assembly elections for the BJP for the first time Assam has a BJP-led government and this is because of the mainly because of the people's grievances that they didn't do anything or congress didn't do anything. I also have to add that the BJP and the other right-wing forces, RSS and all worked on the ground and you know stating that this was nothing being done on this so but congress also has to be blamed for not implementing or not responding to that it's not that they didn't know this was being worked on. So the NRC itself did not have and today in some senses the NRC has become associated with the results of the accord actually. That's right. I don't know if you'd agree with that but that need not necessarily have been the case considering how for instance the NRC itself like you point out in the book was a very flawed exercise. Many districts were not even there in the 1951 in the original NRC. So considering that could there have been any other way of implementing this rather than an almost impossible task in some senses which is basically the NRC. See NRC you know there are these are two very different ways of looking at it when 1951 when the NRC was made you have to see also what other steps the central government had taken in that state. Assam's citizenship issue had been a very old long-standing issue and you have to also take into account say steps like the immigration expulsion act that was brought especially for Assam passed by the parliament in the 50s then the PIP thing which was backed by the Indian IB and you know because the border was open on that side and also the reason why the Foreigners Tribunal in 1964 came up was also because of the tense relationship between India and that side was East Pakistan because Pakistan at that time said that we would go to the United Nations because you have been pushing people your own into our territory and that's the reason that the central government came up with an executive order that we have to create some sort of judicial screen you know for the people to go through. So Foreigners Tribunal actually was put in place to also facilitate you know creating Foreigners so I'm not surprised what you were one shouldn't be actually when you see this there are a lot of reports that are coming against Foreigners Tribunal how biased it is and these are that set up as such and so that's why there are so many amendments that have been required and even now it's been done so that is one thing and so when 1951 NRC was made it was also to look at whether who was the citizen or who is the resident of Assam or permanent resident but as you pointed out you know it was people were not very concerned about it it was a government exercise and also done from the slips that were generated because of the 1952 census so it was not it was not it was not to be a kind of a decision you know people were not told that this is how you'll become a citizen or a resident of Assam finally it was nothing of that sort but when the Assam agitation began there was a strong demand for NRC 1951 to be the benchmark and that's the reason when you see the first in February 1980 when the ASU leaders met Indira Gandhi for the first time since then the talks began on the Assam issue the talks failed because of the NRC cut-off date because Indira Gandhi said that we won March 24 1971 and why is that because that was the day Bangladesh was formed so there was and throughout Indira Gandhi's time there was the accord couldn't take place no solution could come because of the contest between you know the two so this is ever question of 1951 NRC so but then when finally the NRC was to be updated the decision was taken by Manmureen Singh government initially in 2005 and later on it became a court process but the reason why it was decided to update was also because it was it is going to be as part in 1971 cut-off date so that was the thing then court came in later it became a judicial process initially it was a sociopolitical understanding between stakeholders but now which has been turned into a judicial process now yeah so has one of the has this process also led to the breakdown of this sociopolitical understanding between the stakeholders you're talking about so in a to a large extent yes because you see it has been looked at like one section is going to be you know as if it has been brought against you know one section of people you know it was like that so but when people came together why because all stakeholders came together because this issue was going on for a long time and everybody wanted a closure even after the Assam Accord was not sorted political parties came up new vote banks being made but Assam didn't see peace and instead it saw a bout of insurgency so people were tired you know that he wanted a solution once and for all and that was the reason this consensus was arrived at that day and RC if we updated as per this and this one once and for all it's done so but when it became a judicial process then you know it's like who who who's is there a bias in the system all these things came up and then the other thing was also when BJP took over in 2014 okay so in Delhi and then in 2016 when it started rolling the whole process began to roll so BJP is not known for being Muslim friendly so and the state has one of the largest population of Muslims and most of them are from Bengal origin Muslims so that led to a lot of fear also on the ground and the other among the community and also because the Assamese community I feel that many didn't get that that required response also at the time or assurance at the time because people also voted for the BJP so it was also looked at as a kind of you know so it became a sent out very clear message that it could be a communal message so communal exercise so this is what I see that you know this is where you see this this whole communal thing coming in and the ruling BJP really liked it because it also helped it to you know merge their interest into the people's interest like a presenting people's interest as their interest which is actually there is still a gap so basically what you point out that the BJP's Hindu nationalism their aim of trying to make that synonymous with Assamese nationalism for instance exactly so because you see this is also you have to if you see in other states like say Gujarat you know your Gujarati Ashmitha is now very Hindu Ashmitha if you see say Shipsena you know how they start Marathi Manush thing now it is very very close to the Hindu nationalist you know identity so I feel that this is what also being experimented and tried out in Assam too to turn into Assamese or Homiya Jati Uthabad to kind of a Hindu Jati Uthabad. So also let's talk a bit about the detention camps in your book you talked about extensively chronicle some of the issues around it how people suffer the amount of money they have to raise from various sources to actually go through the legal process and even that often ends up in failure the horrible conditions in detention camps so what happens in a society where people who are neighbours at some point of time turn out to be detention subjects of detention camps or people who are placed in detention camps what psychological impact do you see in a society when that happens. See to begin with I as an Assamese I completely oppose this you know I come from the community the human rights issues and all come later my question is to also that why should the Assamese community take the moral burden of something which is actually centres responsibility the border control is centres responsibility why was it left to a state government and a very ad hoc basis to organise some corners of district jails into detention camps and where you know I have visited lot of these camps and I have met people interviewed people who have come out of these centres and you see that there are poor people you know nothing they have actually sold all the valuables that they had and ran from pillar to post you know and many of them are still in these camps because they have don't have the ability to you know hire a lawyer and many cases have been also due to the lawyer's fault because people don't know you know Jesus approached someone the lawyers also have no clue so that all these things but I also don't agree that there are only detention camps have people of only one community this has been generally circulated but it's not I've been saying this I would say there would be if not more you know equal number of Bengali Hindus and also Koshtras Bangshi and other people okay there but this was when in the run up to the NRC what we saw in the media and mainstream media reports is that only one community say the Muslims have been so it's I don't think I don't think so and because if you go on to the ground you will not see that and then the other thing is you know now that has also been proven like see it after the 31st August final NRC came out so many Bengali Hindus are out of it so this is and it's not that the BJP didn't know about it but they had to weaponize NRC for the general elections and that is why the local BJP Hindu Bengali Hindu leaders were protesting that where actually the party was saying that these are their personal comments but the moment the final NRC came the state Assam BJP president he made that those MLAs sit beside him and address the press and said we will deal with this so it's not that the party didn't know it but the party wanted to use it use NRC and we are seeing that now in these coming assembly elections also it's been going to be used because from what you mentioned earlier about what Amit Shah said you know so it's it's a weapon now but also at a larger level do you think this approach especially with the detention camps to host migrants is actually because this is also a global issue we have the same issue in the United States for instance people from Latin America coming from life for livelihood and in Europe people from again the African countries trying to escape war and even in India like you point out once for instance climate change becomes a big issue there's a possibility of huge migration happening so is there any discussion on the larger issue of how long you can not address migration as an issue perceived rather than looking at it purely in terms of nationalities but in terms of having a broader perspective on migration is there any discussion no that is what I feel like I I've been I said it in my book also that you know when the final draft NRC came out and over 40 lakh people were out I saw a lot of thinkers liberal thinkers outside of Sam mainstream India didn't go beyond the politics of the day they were criticizing only the ruling dispensation but didn't engage much with the issue because for me you know as a journalist I always feel that if it has moved the masses you have to engage with it create a space and find out where is the problem and how well to address that that didn't happen though during the Assam agitation time there were people from all streams outside of Assam were trying to engage with the Assam issue like say Gandhi Peace Foundation came up with a very good solution which the government engaged with at that time there were so many people from all streams all political thoughts came and tried to engage with it that I didn't see after the final draft NRC which actually stuck surprised everyone that is many the number surprised everyone that didn't happen so but the issue as you said the migration issue it is not something that we can overlook now okay and particularly even how much it doesn't matter how many barriers that you create but people will manage ways of coming there and particularly when you have similar say ancestry similar groups of people staying here on the other side so it is going to happen but what but then the governments also should see you know the northeast as you see or in Assam the area has a lot of smaller communities very very you know even among the caste Hindus there would be very few okay so the fear is very very palpable you can even across Assam across northeast also you will find this fear very much there among the people and because and also the identity is very territorial link to the land okay so and there's nothing else so there's only land so that itself is a huge thing so I sometimes feel that the government needs to address that issue more how well to give some amount of incentives to the host communities so that these issues get you know the conflict gets you know sorted out because that is one way of going about it but as you said the detention camps and all you know the worry is that the government is not talking about any mechanism I mean what will you do I'm like if say 10 lakh people remains finally after going to the entire process what will you do with them I mean this is not we you're not talking about everything is ad hoc you know the process when you reach the bridge you'll cross it you know and this has to do with a lot of people there are many suicides have happened already so how are you dealing with it so that's not that's not the the discussion point at this at this time so it and it should be actually the government should be asked what is your what is your plan now every time the Assam Accord said that they will be people who would not would be found foreigners would be deported so now the government stand is that they can't be deported that means they will remain so then how long can they remain then stateless you have to bring some mechanism to to make them citizens so what kind of citizens will you make them then so and also even people who came say after 1971 March 24th date and now they they must have spent over 40 years of their life in this in this country what will you do with them so you need to do bring out some form of mechanism then to address that issue so we need to engage with all these things right now and finally you end the book with a lot of questions to Asami society as a whole how will this society actually deal with some of the crisis they're facing today as well as some of the provocations from the right so could you just talk a bit about that and where you see things going in the coming years see that is what you know with this problem not been sold for a long time I think the political parties particularly the national parties have been milking this situation congress it milked it very well and now BJP is milking it so I don't see that BJP will also is also looking at finding a solution to the problem to keep the pot boiling okay so that the sport is going to be kept boiling and to derive as much dividend as possible so as far as BJP is concerned I feel that it is going to try and communalize the issue as much as possible and so if you give a little you take away little so so that the insecurity of the majority community remains so this is what is this is how I see but that brings us to us meaning the community to a question do you want to then call yourself a Hindu first or you want to call yourself an asemese first because if you want to call yourself a Hindu first then what will happen to the asemese Muslims you know they also assert their ethnicity more than the religion and many of them have voted for BJP also because of that so that is one thing and the other thing is if you call yourself if you call yourself an asemese so if you call yourself that then of course you have to go back to your cultural roots you know like some of the biggest cultural icons that Sam has be Pupen Hazarika Jyoti Prasad Agarwala Vishnu Rabha you know all of them have spoken about a wider kind of you know accepting the others who have come settled by the Brahmaputra and call this the land their own and the asam as their maatri so as or everybody a new asemese so there is a concept of new asemese in asam no ahomia so even the Muslims of Bengal origin who had adopted asemese language they returned asemese in the census so they are also termed as no ahomia we have poetry we have literature on that so there is general acceptance of that lot so what will happen to those people if we become if we fall into the communal agenda of one political party today it is one political party tomorrow it will be somebody else demanding something from the community so it is a question in front of the community which way would you like to go thank you so much thank you that is all we have time for today keep watching news click and the Indian writers