 I'm Don Farage, President here at Roger Williams, and thank you all for being here today. I want to introduce our speaker and give you a little bit of context. Our speaker is Professor Carol Delaney, Professor Meritas at Stanford University. Professor Delaney received her undergraduate degree in philosophy from Boston University, a master's in theology from Harvard, and a PhD from the University of Chicago. She is, by nature, a cultural anthropologist and she's written a number of books, a very distinguished scholar several years ago, became interested in the story of Columbus and particularly his religious background and focus, and spent seven years writing a book that was published in 2011 and named one of the hundred best books of the year. She's here today. Thanks very much to two of our Board of Trustees members, Arlene Violet and Mary Gabelli. We have a couple of other board members here as well. The program will be roughly 45 minutes and then we'll open to Q&A. I will moderate the Q&A session and I'll tell you ahead of time we'll do this. Everyone who wants to ask a question will have a chance to ask a question, but we're not going to go to the same person until everybody has answered one question or asked one question. So looking forward to a spirited afternoon and with that, let me introduce Professor Carol Delaney. Thank you very much, President Ferris, for that very generous introduction. I have to say I'm delighted to be here and have had the opportunity to see your beautiful campus. It's really lovely, and I want to thank all of you and particularly the students for coming here. Can people hear in the back? No. Oh, okay. I would especially like to thank all the students for coming today during these contentious times. Let me begin by saying that I am very much in favor of an indigenous people's day, but as an anthropologist I think we have to do a lot more. I'd like to see the whole country devote the next few years learning about the more than 300 Native groups who are living in our midst. And I think it should be ongoing and I think it should start in grade school. But people also need to learn more about Columbus because he's not the man that most people think he is. So I support an indigenous people's day but not as a replacement for Columbus Day. And this talk will explain why. I hope you'll bear with me. I think you're going to hear some things that you've never heard before. And at the end we're going to have lots of time, I hope, for discussion. Most people, even professors, know very little about Columbus. Very few have read his diary, his letters, and his memos. Before I began my research I too knew hardly anything about him except in 1492 he sailed the ocean blue. I really knew nothing more than that and I never thought I would write a book about him. So here's how it began. In the fall of 1999 I was teaching a class at Stanford called Millennial Fever. And in order to look at the apocalyptic frenzy that was going on in the United States at that time students were probably too young to have experienced that. But the class was also exploring the history of apocalyptic millennial thought in the religions. And in one of the readings I came across a tiny footnote to Columbus' apocalyptic millennial beliefs. I had never heard of them. Nor had any of the professors of history at Stanford heard about those either. I was stunned. I guess it's not so surprising however since more than 20 years ago theologian scholar by the name of Leonard Sweet wrote and I quote, and when I do this it means I'm quoting. He quoted, he wrote, scholars most interested in millennialism have largely ignored Columbus. Those scholars most interested in Columbus have skipped over his millennialism. Because to delve into it would mean taking a medieval journey into mysticism, dreams, visions, poetry, monasticism, crusading ideology, prophecies, messianic illusions, apocalypticism and millennialism. A journey few academics have wished to take. But I was willing to do so because my academic work has focused on religion critically. I started to read about some books about Columbus and quickly became dissatisfied because none of them mentioned his religious beliefs and certainly not his apocalyptic beliefs. He would seem to be treated as if he was just like us and only his clothes and his ships were different. The goal of cultural anthropology is to try to understand people in their own cultural context because that's what influences the way they act and the way they think. For example, my own anthropological field work was conducted in a small village on top of a mountain in Turkey where I lived for two years in a mud brick hut with no running water, no electricity and a hole in the ground for a toilet. It wasn't closed. The people were mostly illiterate, shepherds and farmers. And it became very clear to me that Islam was not a religion in the way we think about it as a belief system dealing with a certain aspect of our lives, but the very context in which they lived. It provided their worldview and the same was true for Columbus. At that time, the concept of a religion, one among others, and each with a name did not exist. So for instance, Hinduism, Buddhism, the isms were attached or it was a 19th century invention. Modernity is what transformed what were different world views and ways of life into entities that deal with a specific aspect, namely spirituality. Columbus lived in a Christian Catholic world that enveloped his life. The Protestant Reformation had not yet happened and for him and his peers, the Catholic religion was the one true and only religion. Anything else was considered a false sect. Anthropologists generally study living cultures, but if the past is another country as the saying goes, it seemed possible I could visit Columbus's world. So I began to read a lot about 14th and 15th century Europe to get a sense of the world into which he was born. The following will set the stage, so please try to put yourself into his world. First, the universe was very small and the earth was at the center. The sun, the moon, and the stars went around the earth. Second, they thought the earth had only three parts, Africa, Asia, and Europe, and thought to be peopled by the three sons of Noah. Jerusalem was at the center where the three parts met. See Jerusalem in the center. For Catholics, Jerusalem was sacred not just because it was the place where Jesus preached and was crucified, but also where he would return at the end time to usher in the last days. It was an outrage that was in Muslim hands. Although a number of crusades had been launched to recapture it, none had succeeded. As a boy, Columbus witnessed a crusade when it was leaving from Genoa, and I think that's where he may have gotten his first idea about this. Before the end of the world, Jerusalem had to be in Christian hands, so the temple could be rebuilt, for that was where Christ would come to judge and the believers would be raptured up to hell, to heaven, excuse me, would be raptured to heaven. It was the duty of Christians to evangelize and thus try to convert non-Christians so they would be saved. Five, people believed there were only seven millennia to the world's existence, one millennium for each day of creation, and people thought the end was near. Even before he had the idea of his voyage, Columbus had figured out how many years were left, and he revisited that issue much later, which I'll get to talk about when he wrote his own book of prophecies. I think that's a enough background for now, but I hope that gives you some sense of the world into which he was born in 1451 in Genoa. People feared the end was near because of a number of events that had occurred in Europe during the 14th and 15th centuries. There was a terrible famine and then the Bubonic plague took the lives of between 25 and 50 million people, and there were outbreaks of it all the time. There was also a schism in the Catholic Church when there was a pope in Avignon and one in Rome, and that was very, very upsetting and thought to be toward the end, and that schism was not resolved until the beginnings of the 15th century. But the capstone to all of these turbulent events was the conquest of Constantinople in 1453, two years after Columbus was born. This was devastating especially to the Genoese because they had a huge trading colony in Constantinople, and many of them were killed, and those who came home had terrific, horrible stories to tell. So Muslims were clearly in the ascendant, which added to the sense of doom. Now they blocked not only the overland pilgrimage route to Jerusalem, but cut off the trade route to the riches of the east that had been established by the Franciscans, and also especially by Marco Polo. Columbus's copy of Polo's travels is well annotated and is one of the nine books from his library that still exists. Marco Polo as well as the Franciscans believed that the grand con of Cathay, what we would now think of as China, was interested in Christianity, and he had asked for friars to be sent to teach the people and himself in the religion. And some people like Polo, Marco Polo and Columbus began to think that perhaps the grand con could be persuaded to launch a crusade from the east while the Europeans came from the west to get Jerusalem. With the overland route to the west blocked, people thought that the only way to get there was to sail around Africa and into the Indian Ocean, and that was the path that the Portuguese had been pursuing, and Columbus sailed with them on a number of occasions. But he was also beginning to think of a way to go west across the ocean because Marco Polo had said that the Asian continent was so wide that obviously the ocean must be very narrow. So that was the picture of the world at the time, sort of a narrow little ocean. While sailing with the Portuguese, Columbus had experienced westerly currents and winds as they passed the Canary Islands and thought that would be the place to start the westward crossing. But the Portuguese king was not interested. Columbus did not give up. He sent his brother to England to see if Henry VII would support it while he went to Spain. His wife had died and now Columbus and his young son Diego was in tow, and together they sailed to the port of Palos to Frontera, from where seven years later the first voyage would depart. They arrived sometime in the summer of 1485 and climbed up to the Franciscan monastery of La Rabida. Columbus had always been partial to the Franciscans and his friends noted that he was a passionate man of ardent faith. For example, Bartolome de las Casas, whom you probably know about, and I'll say more about him later, knew Columbus and said this about his faith. He observed the fasts of the church both faithfully, confessed and made communion often, read the canonical offices like a member of a religious order, hated blasphemy and swearing and was most devoted to our Lady and Saint Francis and was grateful to God for benefits received and especially devoted to the idea that God would deem him worthy of aiding somewhat in recovering the Holy Sepulchre. Columbus and Diego were well received at La Rabida and lived there for several years while the monks worked on getting him an audience with Queen Isabella. I have actually visited La Rabida and the monks there are very proud of their connection with Columbus and have preserved several rooms where he lived and stayed during that time, basically intact. Columbus finally met Isabella in May of 1846. She was clearly taken with him because she too was partial to the Franciscans and was also interested in the recovery of Jerusalem as her grandfather and uncle had made that trip and I think she had wanted also to go. She was quick to agree with Columbus's plan because the Pope had given to Portugal all the land along the coast of Africa as well as the right to enslave any Muslims or pagans they encountered. That decree is known as Romanus Ponifex. Isabella had to submit Columbus's proposal to a committee for further study. It would be a long wait. During this time, Columbus met Beatrice di Harana and though the daughter of peasants she was educated and could read and write which were qualities that Columbus appealed to Columbus and they soon became a couple and their son Fernanda was born in 1488. In 1490, the commission rejected Columbus's proposal and so did a second commission. Columbus had been waiting for six years and thinking about this project for a decade so he decided to go to France and was already on the road when a confidant of the Queen rushed to find him and brought him back telling Isabella she was losing a great opportunity at little cost. She signed the papers in April 1492 and told the people of Palos to prepare the ships for the voyage. As you know these were the Niña, the Pinta, the Santa Maria. I'm not going into the details of the immense task involved in getting the ships ready or finding 87 men who would go on this perilous journey. Before departing, Isabella gave Columbus a letter of friendly greeting to the Grand Con if and when they should meet. Once underway, Columbus began to keep a diary. Very unusual at the time since not all sailors could read and write and if they did they just jotted down the wind and the direction and the speed. But at the beginning in his diary he recapitulated his understanding of the voyage. He wrote that he hoped he would meet the person who is called Grand Con which means in our Spanish language King of Kings to see how their conversion to our holy faith might be undertaken because so many times he had asked for men learned in our holy faith in order that they might instruct him in it and how the holy father had never provided them and thus so many people were lost falling into idolatry and accepting false and harmful sects. And you commanded that I should not go to the east by way of land but by the route to the west by which route we do not know for certain anyone has previously passed. The purpose of the voyage was to set up a trading post to obtain gold and spices that would finance the crusade. There was absolutely no intention of killing or enslaving people belonging to the greatest empire in the world. Finally on August 3rd 1492 the small fleet slipped away from Palos into the unknown. Columbus was confident and began to think of himself as the Christ bearer like his name Saint Christopher carrying the Christian religion across the waters. But the men were afraid they might run out of food before they reached land and maybe also run into monstrous races described by Pliny. Their anxiety was increased when the rudder of the pinta came loose on the way to the canaries and then there was an eruption of a volcano on Tenerife. These were not good omens. But finally they set out on the uncharted ocean sailing due west for Columbus thought that Chapango, which is his name or was the name for Japan it was at the same latitude as the canaries. And once they arrived at Japan they knew that China was not very far away. Late in September they got entangled in the Sargasso Sea and saw some birds so they thought they might be getting close to land. But the crew became anxious and demanded that if they did not find land within three days they should turn around before they ran out of food. Amazingly in the next couple of days there were more signs that they were getting close. Late at night on October 11, Rodrigo de Tirana on board the pinta called out land, land and they sat out the night in great anticipation. Their vigil was rewarded because early in the morning a veil of mist opened and Columbus and the crew saw an island full of green trees and a bounding in springs with a large lagoon in the middle. All of these will be Columbus quotes unless I specify differently. Columbus was relieved. He had crossed an ocean no one thought possible and done so in 33 days. A feat that few sailors and small boats today have surpassed and instinctively chose the route that such sailors still continue to follow. Now October 12 is the date Columbus wrote in his diary but he was using the Julian calendar whereas we use the Gregorian that was not established until 1582. Between the two calendars is a 10 day difference. So our holiday is actually commemorating a day when he was still at sea. So one suggestion is maybe indigenous people's day should be October 22 which is the day he actually landed in our calendar. The crew scrambled ashore, kissed the ground and thanked God for bringing them safely across the great water and Columbus called it San Salvador for their salvation. Soon a multitude of people hastened to the shore astounded and marveling at the ships. Columbus's impulse toward the native people was one of benevolence and friendship motivated by a concern for their conversion. I in order that they should be friendly to us because I recognized that they were a people who would be better freed and converted to our holy faith by love than by force. I gave them red caps and glass beads and many other things in which they took much pleasure and became so much our friends that it was a marvel. The natives came swimming to the ships and brought us parrots and cotton thread and many other things and they traded them to us. Then his description of the people reflecting an almost anthropological attention to detail writing what he saw with his own eyes. All of them go around naked as their mothers bore them. They are very well formed with handsome bodies and good faces. Their hair is coarse almost like the tail of a horse except for a short little bit in the back which they wear long. The natives on their side must have been astonished to see such heavily dressed men with full beards since they themselves had very little facial hair. Columbus marveled at their small swift boats that he would soon call by the native name canoe. We now know they'd arrived in the Bahamas but Columbus imagined they'd landed on one of the many islands. Well, go back to that. One of the many islands that Marco Polo had talked about. And so he was eager to continue to find the land of the Grand Con. So they continued on passing islands all very green with sweet smelling breezes. Columbus's eyes pained him and his descriptions give a sense of the therapeutic beauty of their value. I also walked among those trees which were more beautiful to see than any other thing that has ever been seen. I do not know where to go first nor do my eyes grow tired of seeing such beautiful verger and so different from ours. And the smell of the flowers or trees that came from the land was so good and soft it was the sweetest thing in the world. He was overwhelmed not only by the beauty of the trees and flowers but also the fish and the birds which is the word marvel and marvelous too many times to count. He also marveled at the natives' houses and especially at their hammocks which would soon solve the sleeping problems of sailors because his own sailors had to just sleep and find any place on the deck. They had no hammocks. So surely the hammock was one of the great gifts of the natives to the Europeans. Columbus also understood they were not speaking gibberish and so many Europeans attributed to primitive peoples but it was one language and he began to learn some words vowing that little by little I will progress an understanding and will have this tongue taught to persons of my household. They headed toward a large island called Cuba which he thought might be Chipongo, Japan and thus thought he would soon reach China because he wrote, Columbus noticed how generous the natives were and demanded from his men that there be an exchange of goods and this would become a common refrain as the sailors when they went on land were rapacious. But while he had them in his control he said I did not allow anything to be taken not even the value of a pin. With gestures the people told him with some words that other people some fierce one-eyed natives with snouts of dogs who ate men and as soon as they came that one was taken and they cut his throat and drank his blood and cut off his genitals. These were called carabs the natives called these other people carabs. In early December he reached Haiti which he named Hispaniola and when the natives came aboard he ordered that they should be treated courteously because they are the best and most gentle people in the world and especially because I have much hope in our Lord that your highnesses will make all of them Christians but he was becoming very annoyed with the sailors when he sent them ashore to explore and compared them unfavorably with the dignity and generosity of the natives. News of his arrival traveled fast and soon he received an invitation from Guacanagari, chief of another area. On December 24th they set out in his direction but they arrived late and they anchored outside the harbor to wait out the night. The person on watch was careless and before dawn Columbus felt his ship go aground and he named the place Navidad because it was born from the Santa Maria. They were unable to save the ship now they had only the tiny Nina as the captain of the pinta had taken off hoping he would be the one to find the gold. As soon as Guacanagari saw what had happened he sent his people to help unload the Santa Maria and stored their goods in a place that he had emptied for them. Columbus invited him for dinner on the board the Nina but the chief had already ordered a feast for the men and he and a Columbus exchanged gifts. Robert Fuson, one translator of Columbus's diary, wrote Columbus expresses nothing but love and admiration for the Indians. His affection for the young chief Guacanagari and vice versa is one of the most touching stories of love trust and understanding between men of different races and cultures to come out of this period in history. Columbus had equally effusive praise for the islanders. I believe in that in this world there are no better people or better land. They love their neighbors like themselves and they have the sweetest speech in the world and are gentle and always laughing. To him they already seemed to be natural Christians and he hoped that friars would be sent to teach them so they would become true Christians and thus saved. But more serious things were imminent with only the tiny Nina it was clear some men would have to be left behind while he returned to Spain to get a rescue ship. He wrote in his diary that when he returned he hoped to find a barrel of gold that those who had left behind would have acquired by exchange and that they would have found the goldmine and the spiceory and those things in such quantity that the sovereigns before three years are over will undertake and prepare to go conquer the holy sepulcher. For thus I urged your highnesses to spend all the profits on this my enterprise on the conquest of Jerusalem. The phrase for thus I urged implies that they'd already discussed the ultimate goal. Columbus told the men who would remain to strip the Santa Maria and build some lodgings for themselves and ordered them to do no harm to the people and to respect chief Guacanagari to whom they owed so much. Guacanagari held a farewell feast inviting other chiefs to attend. On January 4, 1493 Columbus said a sad goodbye to the chief and the men who would have to be left behind. He also took six of the natives one of whom was a relative of the chief and he said more wanted to come. They were definitely not slaves. On their way they caught up with Pinzon the captain of the Pinta who had captured four native men and two young girls by force and Columbus ordered that they be returned to their homes and they were. Sometime later they met a very fierce group of natives who attacked them with bows and arrows. These were the caribs and the natives on board were definitely afraid of them. Columbus noticed that their language, their hairstyles and body ornamentation were different as was their demeanor. One scholar believes that the most advanced concept Columbus offered was that of a cultural region unified by language and customs obviously aware that not all of the people he was encountering were the same. It was a stormy crossing and they arrived back in Palos on the Ides of March 1493 and spent several days at Lyroboda to recuperate. But news of their return spread rapidly and they were summoned to Barcelona where the sovereigns were holding court. Columbus prepared the natives for the long journey taking every care they would be comfortable. They had never ridden a donkey or seen a donkey but they all rode by donkey to Barcelona. When they arrived the sovereigns held a reception with a public view. Then it is said that Columbus quietly and modestly related the highlights of his journey and discoveries and presented the six natives to them. A few days later the natives were baptized with the king, queen and Columbus standing as godparents. Columbus's godson became his loyal interpreter and accompanied him on many of his other explorations. At least one of them remained at court for the rest of his life and the others chose to return home. None of them were enslaved. Despite all the fanfare, Columbus was anxious to get about the man back in Hispaniola and he had no trouble convincing Isabella to launch a second voyage. But she quickly alerted the pope, Alexander VI. As God's emissary in the world, he felt he had the right to bestow on Christians territories that were in the hands of non-Christians. So on May 3rd, 1493, he issued a papal bull called Intercatora, acknowledging that since he'd given regions in Africa to the Portuguese, he could now bestow the area newly discovered by Columbus on the Spaniards. Although bestowing lands was meant to be about establishing a trade monopoly, basically telling other people to keep off, other European people to keep off, I think there's ambiguity. Because the very next day, realizing that was enough, the pope issued another. And he drew a line from the north to the south down the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. And the side on the one side with the African side was given to the Portuguese and now the other side to the Spanish. And granted, the Spanish sovereigns the right to freely take corporal possession of the said island and countries and hold them forever. The Portuguese were outraged and some adjustments were made. But nonetheless, we must be astonished that the pope thought he could divide up the world among European nations. In addition, according to papal policy, anyone who resisted Christianization or committed acts against nature, cannibalism or sodomy could be enslaved. This is to emphasize that Catholic Christianity is intimately involved with everything that happened in the new world. Yet no one seems to be condemning the church for its position and its involvement in all this. And I think they should. Soon Isabella approved another much bigger voyage, 17 ships. There were sailors and settlers and some Hidalgos. Also Ponce de Leon, the future discoverer of Florida. Michel de Cuneo, whose descriptions of the voyage and the settlement survived. There were three Franciscans and a Benedictine friar whose job was to convert the natives, but he did absolutely nothing. Columbus's brother Diego and the father of Batalamé de las Casas were also aboard. Along the way, they discovered Guadalupe, on which lived some of the fierce caribs. And they learned that they had captured people from the group that Columbus knew, had eaten the men, made the women concubines and castrated the boys. And there were reports, at least, of the castration business, written reports by some of the people who saw this. Columbus rescued as many as he could and took them back to their homes. They also discovered Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands and were encountered by more fierce, by more fierce caribs and their enslaved people. As they approached Guacanagri's village, they saw a shocking sight. Several lifeless bodies were floating in the water. When they landed, they learned that all of the men who had been left behind were dead. The friar immediately wanted revenge and told Columbus to go kill Guacanagri and his people. But Columbus did not believe it was Guacanagri's doing. With his native godson, Columbus went to see Guacanagri and learned, as he imagined, that the men had begun to fight among themselves, formed into groups that went on raiding parties, belonging to another chief, had raped the women and stolen things. The chief then came and killed all the men. The relationship between Columbus and Guacanagri remained friendly for the rest of the time that he was there. But the new settlers blamed Columbus and their relationship with him deteriorated. So he decided it would be better to move on and they sailed to a place Columbus called La Isabella. There was much work to do, build houses, storeroom, gardens, et cetera. But immediately there were problems with the Hidalgos. They refused to work and also refused to let Columbus use their horses to haul timber and stone, which put a huge burden on the other settlers. In addition, these men expected that the natives would be their servants. Columbus heard about a gold mine in a place called Sabao, which he thought might be Sheba, and sent some of them to check it out. At the same time, some of the Hidalgos returned to Spain with some spices and 26 of the exposed men eating carabs. Who, because of that crime against nature, they could be enslaved according to the Pope's policy. Nevertheless, Columbus requested they be treated better than other slaves and given instruction in the faith so that at least they would secure the welfare of their souls. But he also said that if any natives at La Isabella worked for the Spaniards, they should be paid as employees of the Crown. He was clearly disappointed with his own men, but eager to go exploring to find the Grand Khan. So he put a man named Margaret in charge and left specific instructions about what to do and how to treat the natives. And I've seen these instructions, they still exist. Margaret and his men were cruel and without Columbus' knowledge rounded up a large group and sent them back to Spain with a number of the disaffected Hidalgos and then who then complained to the sovereigns that Columbus was being too strict with them. Meanwhile, Columbus was exploring farther to the west and when he came to what is now Cuba, he thought it must be the beginning of the mainland, adjacent to the noble region of Catay. In other words, not too far from the Grand Khan. But when they'd been gone a long time, but they had been gone a long time running out of food, so they headed back to la Isabella. On the way, a fleet of elaborately decorated canoes came out to meet him. The chief of the group greeted Columbus. Friend, I have decided to leave my homeland and come with you to Castile and see the king and queen of the world. And Columbus said, he said this so reasonably, I was wonderstruck. But due to a storm approaching, he had to wait for his next visit. When he got back to la Isabella, he found that his brother Bartholomew had arrived, but also learned about what Marguerite had done. Because of the false rumors he had sent about Columbus, Isabella was concerned and so in the next shipment of supplies for the settlement, she requested that he return to discuss the situation. At that time, he felt he couldn't leave because many of the men were sick. He asked her to send good friars who would learn the language and instruct and not just baptize the natives in the religion. He also requested they send good miners to work in the mines, which for Las Casas was proof that Columbus never intended to make the natives work in the mines. Finally, in March 1496, he returned to Spain with more than 200 of the Christians and 30 of the natives who had been rounded up by Marguerite. Perhaps due to his remorse or his penance for how the natives had been treated in his absence, Columbus now donned the coarse-brown habit knotted with a cord of a Franciscan friar. He had become a lay monk in the observatine order and he wore this outfit for the rest of his life and it became his burial shroud. Columbus the monk, it is hardly the image that we have of this man. The Indians with him were baptized and thus not enslaved. He petitioned the sovereigns to send another voyage and this time they authorized the construction of a new settlement and in a clear departure from their earlier idea of a trading post to make grants of land to the settlers. This was the beginning of the imperial designs on the new world, but it also changed their previous promise for whom the trading post was to be under his control and he was supposed to receive a certain percentage. Finally on May 30th 1498 he set sail on the third voyage. Three ships would go with him and sail farther south while three others would go straight to his banyola. Unfortunately those went off course and landed on the far side of the island where there was a rebel group under a man named Roldan and they were holed up there. Roldan and the men with him went on rampages, raping and pillaging. All of this was unknown to Columbus who was sailing along what is now Panama, Venezuela and the north coast of South America. Along that coast he thought he was near the terrestrial paradise or the Garden of Eden. The discovery of which was believed to be by many to be a sign that the end time was near. In the meantime the sovereigns had sent Francisco de Babudia to the settlement to check on the situation. It was a terrible choice as he had already a reputation for being harsh and had been sued by the citizens of the towns that he commanded in Spain. When Babudia got to la Isabella he saw that two Spaniards had been hung. Columbus had ordered their deaths because those men had done terrible things to the natives and he wanted to set an example that such behavior would not be tolerated. But his job was to go to exploring and to find the Grand Khan. He thought the men in charge would follow his instructions but they just did whatever they wanted and are responsible for the terrible things that occurred. Here I have a short digression. I would like to say that as far as we know Columbus never killed a native, took a native woman or had a slave. Yet Bartolomé de Las Casas, who is revered as the defender of the Indians, had slaves, had several encomiendas that were worked by slaves and did not begin to change his mind about slavery until years after Columbus's death. But then it was only about the indigenous people of the Caribbean because he suggested that the colonists should import blacks from Africa. So that's the great defender of the Indians. When Columbus finally arrived back at Isabella, Bobadilla captured him and put him in chains. His brothers were already in chains and on board a ship ready to return to Spain. Columbus knew nothing of this and when the guards came to get him he feared they were going to behead him. Instead they were all sent back to Spain but on different ships. With Columbus out of the way, Bobadilla took up residence in Columbus's house, confiscated all of his belongings and told his men they could take all the gold and women they wanted and under his rule many more natives were killed. Back in Spain the queen ordered the chains be removed, told Columbus she'd not ordered his capture and promised to replace Bobadilla. Shortly she sent Nicholas Ovando, 35 ships and 2,500 colonists and appointed him governor over the lands Columbus had discovered, thus stripping Columbus of that title. While recuperating Columbus turned his attention to the spiritual matter he considered of utmost importance, the apocalyptic significance of his discoveries he wrote. Here begins the book or handbook of sources, statements and prophecies on the subject of the recuperation of God's holy city and Mount Zion and on the discovery and evangelization of the islands of the Indies and of all other peoples and nations. This came to be known as the book of prophecies. The book was written in Latin and it's the most explicit and extensive expression of his quest for the liberation of Jerusalem. It remained unpublished for 400 years and then only a few copies of the Latin version were published. Not until 1992 during the Quincentennial was it published in English. Very few people have ever heard about it let alone read it. For years Columbus had been collecting passages from the Bible and other religious sources which showed him that the discovery of islands was foretold and a sign of the impending end of the world. For example, God says, I will set a sign among them to the islands so far off, to them that have not heard of me and have not seen my glory. And next to important passages Columbus drew a finger pointing to it the way we would either underline or put a post-it. While Ovando was lording it over Isabella Columbus was allowed to make a fourth voyage but he had only four ships and 135 men. Isabella warned him he could not stop at Hispaniola the very island he had discovered. He took his 12 year old son Ferdinand with him. He made the fastest crossing ever and though he was not supposed to go to Hispaniola a severe hurricane was brewing. He requested permission to land and warned those returning to Spain with Bobadia about the hurricane. He was refused permission to land and Bobadia scuffed at the warning. Too bad, Bobadia and all his men went down with the ship while Columbus and his ships rode it out. Columbus sailed past Cuba across the Caribbean to Panama from which he hoped to return to Hispaniola and never made it. They were shipwrecked on Jamaica. They had no food but Columbus kept the men aboard the ship so they would not go on their rapacious errands and instead since he knew these natives from a previous stop and they had been friendly they set up a trading exchange. But knowing this could not last Columbus sent a few men in canoes to try to paddle to Hispaniola to get a rescue ship. When one of the canoes reached land it was close and they went to meet him. There they learned about one of the most horrendous acts committed by Ovando or by anybody on the islands. He had burned or hanged 84 native chiefs and other nobles along with Anaconda the chief lady of the land whom all the natives obeyed and served. And she had actually invited all those chiefs to welcome Ovando and that was his response. He committed more atrocities than Bobadia and yet their names and those of Marguerite and Roldan are forgotten and instead it's Columbus who's blamed for their terrible deeds. Finally a rescue ship arrived and on June 29, 1504 all of the men as well as teenage Ferdinand bid farewell to Jamaica. They had been marooned for a year and a half. Not long after they returned to Spain. Columbus was ill and very disturbed by what all the Spaniards had done. Excuse me. He soon found out that Isabella had died and thus he was unable to tell her of the perfidiousness of those who had been sent to govern in his place. King Ferdinand was not interested and reneged on all of the privileges that they had bestowed on Columbus before the first voyage or almost at the end. Columbus was naturally concerned about his family and the natives he had come to know. He spent the remaining year of his life trying to reclaim some of his rights so that they could be provided for. He left funds to support four men of religion to go and teach and not just baptize the natives so they would be saved and also for some buildings to be constructed. But his passion for the conquest never left him and he left money in a bank in Genoa for that purpose stating that when it had multiplied and was sufficient for the venture the sovereign should undertake it or if they were uninterested his son Diego should do it. Then on May 20th, 1506 the Feast of the Ascension according to his sons and friends who were at his bedside Columbus with his dying breath said, into thy hands Lord I commend my spirit. He was 56. Thank you. Okay, it's time for the audience to respond so who has a question or comment? Danny? Dr. Delaney, you mentioned that Columbus is not directly responsible for some of the atrocities he committed. For example, on page 238 of your book his men disobeyed his orders in one instance and went on rampages of which he continuously complained. Are you aware that Columbus expressed intent to enslave native peoples? It appears to me that people are ingenuous and would be good servants and I am an opinion that they would very readily become Christians as they appear to have no religion. If it pleases our Lord, I intend to return to return to carry home six of them to your highness. That's from Columbus's journal the 11th to 12th of October in 1992. How do you reconcile this reality with your assertion? Furthermore, as a leader if he disagreed with these acts wouldn't his position of power exert some sort of influence on the people he led? Thank you for that. As I've said the six people were not enslaved. One of them became his godson the other one stayed there at the court for the rest of his life the others returned home. He had made that statement because he was urged to do on behalf of some of the other people who were there. He never enslaved anybody. Will you say it? No, his purpose also was never to enslave anybody. They were going to meet the grand cons not enslave the grand cons people. Can I ask a point of clarification then from his journal? He uses the word servants. I intend to carry six of them home. They'll make good servants. One of them is a slave. In the 15th, 16th century it is often used interchangeably. Apparently that maybe is a bad translation then. They were never enslaved. Okay, thank you. They were not actually made into servants either because one became his traveling companion and one was at the court. Hello. Dr. Delaney by now you must be aware that our institution has a petition for Columbus Day to be changed to Indigenous Peoples Day. I hold the petitions right here in my hand. Many other colleges and universities celebrate Indigenous Peoples Day instead of Columbus like Cornell University Harvard University, Syracuse University University of Utah and including Brown University the school that you work at. Furthermore, the states of South Dakota, Minnesota, Alaska and Vermont have officially adopted Indigenous Peoples Day instead. As well as the cities of Oberlin, Ohio, Banger, Maine, Seattle, Washington, and many more the number of cities that celebrate Indigenous Peoples Day is over 55 so far. So is it your intent that your work will have a bearing on this movement? First of all, as I said right at the beginning I'm totally in support of an Indigenous Peoples Day and it should be much more than that in fact, I think we could have a year of it or a month or a week or something, but a day and I just don't think it should be a replacement for Columbus Day. If it were Babadia or Ovando Day yes, I would say immediately because they were the ones who did horrible, horrible things and as I said, the only person Columbus killed were two Spaniards who had done such bad things. So yeah, I'm in support of Indigenous Peoples Day I don't like the idea of replacement and I think part of the thing that's been going on in all the universities is people know nothing about him they've read nothing about him they've not read his diary and I think that might change things and especially if they read other things that first-hand reports which is one of the a lot of the material that I saw about the horrible things that were going on and how he tried to stop it. So yeah, I'm in support of the day but not as a replacement and I'm in support of a lot more than just a day I think that is just a token I think we really need to learn a lot more. Hi so you've repeatedly said that Columbus never had slaves however he wrote in one of his journals 100 Castellanos are now easily obtained for a woman as for a farm and it is very general and there are plenty of dealers who go about looking for girls those from 9 to 10 are now in demand suggesting that he sold where did he find this? I found it on an article online I would like to know who is by because I've never seen anything like that that was a quote from Columbus's journals I would know it I've read the journal there's nothing like that I don't know I'm sorry okay well even if that is not a direct quote there were many more allegations from other people on his voyages that he still sold young girls into sex slavery so how would you respond to that? Absolutely not you can see he continually grabbing his own guys who were off doing that and saying do not and he brought them home to their houses he did not engage in sex slavery as far as we know I don't know where you are getting that information but it's beyond belief I'm sorry I've read so much stuff by and about him and by all the people who were with him and there's nothing like that that I have seen I would really like the reference and I would like to get it from you so the question that we have for you next is for you and the audience is at large so as students we are committed to equity and social justice for all as we learn more about the history not taught in schools we know of the discrimination suffered by many groups from whom the US is home starting with the indigenous peoples and including Italian Americans what do people need to see from us to communicate that we are pro-Italian American but anti-Columbus and that it is possible to do both things I guess I'm not I think if anybody would really read the diaries and read some of the things he was a religious fanatic there's no question I'm opposed to those apocalyptic millennial views but there are people today who have them fanatical Christians who still have these ideas so I'm against those particular ideas but I am not against Columbus I think everything I've read by him and about him I didn't think I'd like him I ended up actually liking him for some of the things he did and some of the things he said and the way he treated people so that's my sure and thank you for that does anybody in the audience have anything because we would love to hear some things well it's not a choice so we'll be well we want to be able to present the fact that we're not anti Italian American that we're anti-Columbus and that we want to be able to communicate the group as a whole and to people that we are able to do both things could I add one more thing I was just thinking about after Columbus I mean he's the first one who came across the ocean right and Vespucci came across a couple years later so if it wasn't Columbus it would have been this Marigo Vespucci for whom the continents are named and then the conquistadors who came and their goal was really conquest that was not Columbus's notion it was not he was going to meet the grand con to set up a trading post to do this whole you know crusade thing it was certainly not conquest and those other people who came after not Vespucci so much but the conquistadors came after were so much worse and the ones that he left Ovando and Bobbedia they were really awful hello I would like to ask you keep saying that we should have both days so presuming that the information that you're providing is true and that he was a good person closer that he did not take part in these atrocities what purpose does the day serve if his end goal was to fund the conquest of Jerusalem you see even say that you disagree with his religiously fanatic beliefs but that you somehow came like him which okay fine but what does this day commemorate if not for the discovery of America which then ends up with the crosses committed well I think one of the things is he is the first person who crossed the ocean that nobody thought could be crossed and it was a very courageous thing to have done and if it had not been him as I said it would have been somebody else then we'd have Vespucci day probably does this not ignore the failed attempt of the Nordic peoples who did so they ended up dying they did not cross across the wide ocean they went up around Greenland and Iceland maybe to Newfoundland we don't know they did not cross the ocean even so I think it's quite an extraordinary feat it's like the first thing that goes to the moon I would not disagree with you maybe we will have a day to commemorate the first landing on the moon maybe we do I don't I don't know whether we do or not so as an explorer and as a discoverer I would say for that deed alone so I wanted to reference a point you had made before when another student came up and mentioned that Columbus did not Columbus did not have slaves of his own but there are writings this source from Howard Zinn who is an actual professor as well he says this quote comes from Columbus's journals and this says referencing the Native Americans a quote from Columbus they do not bear arms and do not know them for I showed them a sword they took it by the edge and cut themselves out of ignorance they have no iron their spears are made of cane they would make fine servants with 50 men we could subjugate them all to do whatever we want he also wrote Mrs. Columbus as soon as I arrived in the Indies on the first island which I found I took some of the natives by force in order that they might learn and might give me information of whatever there is in these parts the Indians Columbus supported are so naive and so free with their possessions that no one who has not witnessed them would believe it when you ask for something they have they never say no to the contrary they offer to share with anyone and he then writes back to Queen Isabella that in return he would bring them from his next village as much gold as they need and as many slaves as they ask he was full of religious talk thus the eternal God our Lord gives victory to those who follow his way over apparent impossibilities he seems to be referencing the subjugation of the Indian people or the Native American people there who we believe to be of from islands near India and subjugating them in order to mine gold and to gain their possessions really without anything that could be construed as actual consent by the Native people so I wonder what are your counter-arguments to what Zinn here seems to be saying with some very vetted accurate research here that Columbus was in fact aware of the ideology guiding the Spanish here I have looked at Zinn's book I was one of the ones I started to read I thought it was terrible I thought it had very little I mean I know he's a professor too but I think he I don't know where he got some of those quotes and sources because there was no I just didn't think it was a very good book and I didn't think it was well researched there are a lot of books out there by Columbus about Columbus and some of them are okay and some of them are not and yes he did talk about the weapons that they had were not very you know good compared to the kinds that the that the Christians had but that was not to subjugate and take them I disagree I'll have full disclosure I'm a minister I'm a Christian minister and I'm the University multi-faith chaplain here and I and I'm also a historian and I you bring up I think one thing we haven't talked about that's a thesis in your book is that we have to put people within their context and understand that the driving forces in their life we did we even do that with Roger Williams here although we esteem him immensely we know that he was not always part of the solution with the indigenous peoples he could be part of the problem even though he had some of the best relationships with them so here's my question as an historian at what point do we begin to look at the analysis of colonial genocide meaning that even in I'm a Christian at some point in trying to propagate Christianity we created a cultural and religious genocide on indigenous peoples I say to my students that I know hey look the first the first religion here on the continental US was not Christianity it was indigenous peoples understanding of creation and we never take a look at that so at what point can we stand back and say ok maybe Columbus didn't do this but at what point did that whole movement create another kind of genocide that we still need to atone for I'm just curious because I know this is part of your book put them in context I think I'm really disturbed by the word genocide because when I look up the definition of genocide it says a specific conscious intention to get rid of a certain group of people the way the Nazis did with the Jews and that was certainly not Columbus's mind at all to get rid of these people he wanted to be friends with them he wanted to set up a trading post so that convinced them to march on Jerusalem at the same time the Europeans were so the word genocide really bothers me in this context because I also have studied human rights history so I know there's a lot of debate amongst historians because the word wasn't created until after World War II and the genocide convention was not put into place until 1948 can we say that anything that occurred before that was genocide and we also define genocide because I've read the conventions and I've read the conventions on human rights that we define it not only as killing people but also killing culture the ability for people to live within their context so the Nazis went about trying to completely eradicate Jewish culture and so I think you can apply that term and I agree you've got to do it carefully because it's a 20th century term but I think you can talk about it in terms of trying to convert people and to another faith that is not their own and just what I'm curious about is at what point can we analyze that so that we can not repeat the same kinds of things and at what point can we stand back and say okay this wasn't a cool thing this wasn't a cool thing for to happen and we understand the context but here was the result of it thanks for taking my question I really appreciate it I guess since I'm a critic of especially the Abrahamic religions I've written a book Abraham on Trial I find the religions they're all sort of arguing against they each have the the right word of God and they're going to inherit the patrimony and I'm basically opposed to them all and I think we've got to start thinking about other humans instead of up to God first let's thank God for this instead of let's thank humans and I discovered that when I was walking on the Camino de Santiago they're always giving these prayers let's thank God for the food and I said no we've got to thank the farmers and the people who are making the wine and the people who are serving us the religiosity takes people's attention away that we should be focusing on each other and I think nationalism is another thing that is being very very bad for this sort of thing everybody wants their own nation instead of we are one world and one planet soon to destroy it if things go the way they're going right now excuse me Professor Delaney I'd just like to ask a follow up question to the one that just came it seems to me that you did start to address that this issue of cultural genocide and laying the blame not on Columbus but on the Pope and the Catholic Church at the time which set up the put a certain cast around the discovery and which set the stage for the conquest and maybe you could address that well it does seem that that's sort of a lot of what I was talking about the whole notion he was surrounded by this notion of the crusade and that Jerusalem was the center and it had to be retaken and that was the motivation that was the motivation behind everything and it is a religious motivation and that I'm opposed to opposed to so it's the religion aspect that I'm really opposed to and not the people who necessarily are having that in his journals did Columbus ever talk about any natives who refuse to convert to Christianity and if so how did he respond to that he never tried to convert anybody he was waiting for the friars to come to teach and he kept saying I mean that one friar that was supposed to be sent to teach them didn't do anything he did learn the language he didn't teach them and sometimes the friars or whoever they were would just baptize them without teaching them anything and Columbus kept saying no I want friars to come and teach so they know what they're getting into and no they weren't as far as I know nobody was converted during that time you mentioned how Columbus was a monk what culture of religion does that stem from and what did they believe in those monks he became a franciscan he became a franciscan you know the robes they wear they're brown and they have a cord tied around he became a franciscan okay cool that was the first question because I've got a handle for a second question so we live in a climate where people are again using their voices to push back against sexual harassment and this time powerful men are being held accountable those who have continued to support these perpetrators by casting them as good people and attempting to silence their accusers by calling them liars appears reprehensible how do your efforts hear different from the defenders of the accused well that's a good that's a good question because of course I'm very upset about all the harassment that's been going on it's been going on for years and years I don't think it's the same thing first of all he did not touch any of them he did not touch any of them he did not try himself to convert anyone as far as I know nobody got converted so I don't quite see the parallel I mean he didn't do anything he didn't have slaves he didn't take any women he didn't it's not exactly an exact kind of correspondence that I can see I had a question about the format of the event tonight so as a scholar I believe you know the importance of critical thinking dialogue in light of the national conversation about Columbus and his legacy we would have liked to see a similar conversation facilitated on this campus we were told that you only agreed to a lectured style event what are your thoughts about critical thinking dialogues and why do we not have such an event tonight thank you I had heard about that idea and I would be happy to come back and have another kind of debate if that's what you would like but I think that there were things in the lecture and in my book that you've never heard about for instance Columbus being a monk Columbus never had slaves and I wanted to and probably never even heard about the whole business about the crusade and that's his whole motivation and if you don't know that then you can understand the person and so I wanted to be able to talk about that and let people know what was behind this where as having a debate none of that would have come out none of it I can't see how it possibly would and that's why I agreed to do this and I'm happy to come back again if you would like any time and we could discuss more informally it would be great previously you would just stated that but this flies in the face of your previous arguments he had sent friars back to Hispania to to convert them and although he was not the direct person to baptize them that does not excuse him he was by association guilty of taking part in this conversion it was even part of their souls yes he wanted to save their souls that's true but as I told you that the friar never converted anybody he didn't do anything and he went back home and that ignores my statement though I had stated that he was guilty by association since he was the one that had said yes we must send friars to Hispania to convert them and save their souls which you cannot deny is conversion when spoken to save their souls that is meant to say that you are turning someone from non-Christian to Christian in order to find them good in the eyes of Christ but remember that he thought he was on the periphery of the grand he thought that these people were part of the grand con's empire he hadn't preached the grand con yet but he thought he was going to any minute so he thought the grand con had asked for friars to convert them remember when did you bring up the fact that he had believed that the grand con had asked them to bring friars I do not remember this part of your argument yeah right at the beginning that when Marco Polo and the Franciscans had gone the grand con had asked that they send to teach and convert them about the faith because the grand con was very interested in Christianity according to Marco Polo and the Franciscans I mean and was this grand con the legitimate grand con that he initially sought out to and not the grand con that he mistook as the native tribe leader he did not mistake anyone for the grand con I'm just saying that he thought this was the periphery of the grand con's area no he never met the grand con never thought he had well I just I just have a brief comment I'm really largely unfamiliar with your work here on this topic in any case I just wanted to thank you for making it a little bit more difficult to choose between Indigenous People's Day and Columbus Day because that's a problem that choice and while I would like to hear you argue things in a different manner at times I appreciate you again complicating with your historiography this issue that we all need to get further complicated by yeah that's all I guess I would like to add I think we need to do a lot more than just have an Indigenous People's Day I really think all over the country we need to learn more about the natives who are living in our midst and thank you I had another question this one kind of about power and consent so you talked about that the Indigenous People consented to Columbus taking them I was wondering how can we trust Columbus's words with different factors present including the threat of violence with all the weapons they had as well as the inherent power the Europeans had coming over and the native people when they got there exchanging gifts they were accounts that they thought they were gods and people kind of look up to because they never seen like white skin before so with those different factors of power at play and coercion the Europeans coerced the native people how can we kind of trust that account that Columbus said was consent was actually consent I don't know that we can ever say anything like that but I mean he and the chief were obviously friends it's very clear and that comes across from a lot of the different things that have been written and one of them was the chief's relative may have even been his son and it's hard to imagine that the chief would let his son go across the ocean with some guy that he didn't like and it seemed to me that everything that I've heard that he and the chief at least guacanagri they got along very well and were very good friends and I don't know whether there was consent he said lots more wanted to go we don't know that of course but the idea the fact that one of them wanted to stay he liked being at the court in Spain he decided to stay and I'm not sure there may have been another one who also stayed I'm not sure but you know he had that choice too I don't think they were coerced the six that he took back so recognizing that Columbus never set foot on US soil can we both agree on that? yes so recognizing that should we actually be investing all this time and energy celebrating him when he never set foot on this soil? well he did set foot on the north coast of south America yes but US soil I don't know what I'm talking about but why does the Marigold Vespucci then he gets to give them names to America he did neither my question is this is one of the only people that we celebrate in the US who has not set foot here besides Christmas when we celebrate Jesus Christ the only other person who we celebrate that never set foot on this on this soil so why should we be investing all this time in celebrating a man who never set foot here but it's not a national holiday that we have a day off in well except for the native peoples the rest of us would not be here we wouldn't be here wait can you please restate that except for the native peoples we're already living here right but with Columbus's voyage more and more people started coming and we are all somehow the recipients of that voyage well but except for the native peoples but you also stated that if it wasn't for Columbus other explorers would have come here already not already they would have come later well they would have come later on so I'm confused by that statement the first one who crossed the ocean so why are we the fourth part of the world I guess okay I understand that you celebrate him but why do we celebrate as the United States of America why do we celebrate him keep reiterating because he crossed the ocean and found that there was a whole bunch of lands islands continents between Europe and Asia but if Columbus never existed let's do hypotheticals if Columbus never existed and these other explorers came we would have made a day for them probably we like days we would have had this future day or somebody else so would you agree that Columbus stands as a symbol for the colonization of North America that is believe what I all right and would you agree that the colonization of North America resulted in the destruction of the indigenous peoples and their culture and ultimately their lives many of them excuse me continent this country would have remained only American somebody is going to come here somebody at some point but that doesn't excuse the actions that resulted from Columbus' voyage over here I think a lot of this a debate comes down to questions over intent over action it's impact over intent results there's no question I think he had very good intentions I think there were bad things that happened do you negate that the impact was negative I think it was very hard there was a lot of disease people died from disease on the other hand the natives apparently had something called yaws when the men contracted it turned into syphilis which then spread like wildfire across Europe also tobacco so you don't find a problematic that we have a holiday to celebrate the man that embodies the colonization of North America but we don't have a holiday that celebrates the people who lived here even before we should have a day we should have a year a week a month but I also think because he did cross the ocean I think his intentions were good I think his relations with the people were good there could have been a lot of conquistadors had the conquistadors come first I would totally agree thank you so much for your talk it was very interesting and illuminating I have a couple of points and questions the first one is about Italian Americans I hear the voice of Italian Americans and I think that obviously we would be to ignore the persecution that they paced throughout US history but I've heard nothing from you about why he's an icon for Italy I hear repeatedly about Spain so can you address why he's a symbol for Italian Americans that's my first question then my second question is more of a comment that leads to a question what does it mean to Roger Williams University a university that's named for a man who violently considers converting indigenous people I mean he writes at length in a key into the language of America in Christians to make not Christians in the bloody tenant in private correspondence when he says forced conversion stinks in God's nostrils so for a colony that then later becomes the state of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations that is founded on religious freedom and a university named after Roger Williams who himself enslaves indigenous peoples in 1676 how can we celebrate Columbus and if your point is about religious conversion when our namesake is strongly against that I mean he writes openly he writes in code about it I mean it's letters it's everywhere that Roger Williams does not want conversion so how can this university do that absolutely he was so deeply religious and so humble that he was one of he was in a very strong position to convert indigenous peoples he felt that they had to come to their own realisation and he feels that they're equal he completely respects their religion I was reading your journal article and you not in the book but in the journal article that came out around the same time that you compare this to the Puritans the Pilgrims and Puritans who come over in the 1620s the very people who wanted to just execute Williams so the views do persist the end of the world they've got to convert everybody there the people in Plymouth and Massachusetts Bay I mean that's why it matters so much to this university perhaps that's something you and I could have a dialogue about why it matters so much he doesn't own slaves he's against perpetual slavering he enslaves indigenous people in the wake of King Philip's war he signs his name big and bold first it complicates our understanding I'm all for that so it matters even more I think to us that we acknowledge the indigenous people that our namesake did so well by for most of his life yeah so what do you think about that point about Roger Williams and then perhaps you can address my point about doing stuff for Italy I can suggest some sources can you use the mic sorry I guess because Columbus was Italian is why Italian Americans are you know taking up his case that's okay so we've had a very lengthy conversation okay okay autumn hi I'm a Latin American historian and with a specialty in the Caribbean and the Dominican Republic and so I have a question about your methodology just wanting to understand when you're reading Columbus's journals are they in Italian or are they in Spanish they're in Spanish there was no written Italian at that point there are only a few lines of Genoese mostly he wrote in either Latin or Spanish right so I'm just trying to understand this and also as as students Spain you know obviously obviously and as students keep asking about these questions about enslavement and whatnot so I just want you to I wonder if you could clarify if he was using the requermiento system the requermiento system which was a part of what Queen Isabella had asked and had enforced as people were going across the ocean beginning with Columbus's voyages the requermiento is the requirement so the reading of when you come into contact with persons in the new world about conversion and so it was that at all in his journals I don't know I have not seen anything I haven't seen right and this is I think this is interesting because I had but actually wouldn't have done done that until after he'd already been here no it was done before so Charlotte and I both have a student that worked on a project that was a course of microcosm a very small version of your book but all of this is very interesting and having the students understand the time period that influences the people as they were coming over so we had a student that was a Columbus or Cortes I think it was Cortes but trying to understand the late 15th century and what was going to drive the actions of brutality and enslavement and whatnot this was definitely obviously obviously a different type of person altogether I just want to congratulate us all for having a very difficult conversation in the sense of being a very difficult topic and and doing it in a very civil fashion I think we were showing America how you take up these questions we're not done there's more to come but this was an important part of what we had to say and I want to hand the microphone over to Mr. Gigabelli who wants just to say a few words you know I have listened to many professors who've done a lot of work and thank you for your work and the effort but also the achievement that you've accomplished I'm also very proud of all of the students at Roger Williams I think the notion and the world in which we have seen less ability in dialogue over the last several years that we have the right dialogue here tonight the notion of coming out with your judgment and your concerns and your feelings is very important what I do for the last 50 years is research that's what I do I'm an analyst I read companies and when I come to a decision on the company I always like to listen to everyone's point of view whether they're short the stock or long the stock and don't make it sound so mercantile but it is what I do and essentially what I like to hear is your opinions and I'm delighted that you are hearing more about certain aspects of the individual I think you also bring up good points about the italo-americans and go back and read about what happened in 1891 and why 1892 became the airmarked by Governor Cleveland and not my point of view of bringing that to the table but I'm also in a very practical economic way anyone that signed up for a book I'm going to give you a free copy so and the reason for that is that you should learn about the details just to get one facet and if you have a book that you'd like to share I will read it as well so please send me what you have you quoted somebody but on any subject at any time and thank you very much President on that note so thanks for everyone for being here and thank you students