 if it were not recorded. Anyway, welcome everyone, a couple of things. One is the Hyperledger Antitrust Policy. If you do not know what the antitrust policy is, we could have a full hour of presentation on that but it is available on the website for all to look at. If you do not agree with the antitrust policy, please do not join the call. The other item that we have to talk about is the Hyperledger Code of Conduct, which is basically saying that even when you disagree with somebody, you shouldn't be disagreeable in short. In short, with Iroha, I was one of the early proponents of Iroha and having had a brush with Japanese culture, I know the importance of Iroha. In fact, I translated it, the words of the poem into English and posted it up on the Hyperledger TSC chat as soon as Iroha got status was promoted to a full project from incubation. So Iroha is a very familiar concept to me and obviously not everybody knows about it. And I'm so glad that we have three of the most important people in Iroha right here. Starts with Sarah, Zillia, and of course Makoto, Makoto Takamiya. Anyway, they'll start their presentation right away. Thank you for showing up and running the presentation. Hi, yeah, let me try and start to share my screen. Can you see it? The presentation right here, is it okay? No, it's not, it's not exactly working. Now we could see it briefly for a minute. Yeah, me too, that's very odd to be quite honest. Okay, so here it is, we can see it. Now I mean, this way it looks better, isn't it? So, hello, my name is Sarah. We also have Zillia and Makoto-san here today. And today we'll talk about Bakong, which is a central digital currency solution in Cambodia, which is built on Iroha. And we are very proud of this project because it's really important to the people and to the economics. So a little bit about us, Soromitsu. We were founded in 2016, we have more than 80 people. I think it's about like 100 people at the moment in from all over the world, like we have offices in five countries, I think. But we also have people from all around the world and we believe that talent is decentralized. You can't have all the talent in one place. So yeah, we're original contributors of Hyperledger Iroha and we are still like maintaining it and developing it. We have version one released in May, 2019 and now works being done on the second version. Then we worked with National Bank of Cambodia on Bakong project, which we will be talking about today. We also have other project based on Iroha, such as D3 Ledger and VCA. And we also do projects with Polkadot. So let's come to the Bakong. So what is Bakong? It's the first world retail payment system run by Central Bank that uses blockchain. Right now it has 50,000 users and 20 million dollars worth of assets in the system. So basically it's like 50,000 users using it all the time to make payments, send money. Yeah, anyone with a Cambodian phone number can download the app and start using it. Money can be sent to other people or pay in stores and everything will be recorded to the Central Bank's ledger. So the pilot launch was on July 17th, 2019. So you see on the right picture, there's like this sticker that says Bakong. It means that in this store, they can accept Bakong which is this like payment solution. System officially launched on October 28th this year. No, last year, no, it's last year already, sorry. Yeah, it took a little bit longer because of the COVID but we were very glad to, then it launched officially. So right now there are 20 banks in the system and counting. So the system is run by National Bank of Cambodia and commercial banks are connecting to it. And right now there are 20 and there are more I believe that are in the compliance stage at the moment. So yeah, it's a lot of banks that are ready and glad to work with the system. So what is Bakong basically? It's the core ledger that is run by the National Bank and there are applications. Mobile application for commercial bank clients to transfer money. I'll just show you the screenshots a little bit later to receive money, to send money to the bank account. And there is also like a identity solution for onboarding. There's also a desktop application for commercial banks to manage bank accounts, web client interface for commercial banks to monitor transactions. And there's like physical cards for secure transaction signing. I think it's in process. So yeah, even for even more security. So this is basically what the interface looks like. I think it was a little bit outdated recently, but it has pretty much the same functionality. It's easy to understand. There's like send money, receive money, deposit money, pay with the QR code. It's simple, it's easy to use, but it has very secure and good technology behind it. First of all, it's identity verification by face recognition. So when you download the application and start using it, one of the first things that you do is one of the first things that you see in the app is the first stage of verification. It takes your photo, it compares it with your passport or ID card. It takes the information from the ID card. And it also makes sure that it's a live face that's the check of liveness. And yeah, so with that, it's not a photo. So it helps a lot to proceed with the first level of verification. Because yeah, on the first level of verification, you don't need to go anywhere, so it's easy. And you can spend up to $25 a day. No, sorry, $250 a day. So yeah, you can increase this limit by going to commercial bank to do the second stage of verification. So basically to verify yourself. But it's going to be easy because it was done partially when you made a photo of yourself, made a photo of your document. So you don't need to insert this information. So it's rather easy. But also like $250 a day, it's also a very good limit. Yeah, now how you actually use the app. So you create a back on account and transfer from bank account to the account or just go to commercial bank to top up the account. We'll talk about this a little bit later. Zilla will talk about this later. Then you make a payment by scanning a QR code or you can send the money and yeah, it's done. Makoda san, I hope Makoda san will be able to show us today the demo, how easy and quick it is. Yeah, and this is what desktop app looks like. Yeah, I think that now I'm going to pass the mic to Zilla. Yeah, hello. Yeah, we can hear you. Okay, I just don't see any presentation now. Sorry, I tried to mute myself. So I wouldn't like make any extra noises. So sorry, let me go back to it. It's okay, don't worry. Stop happens. I just feel a little bit worried and embarrassed because like we're talking about technology here and having issues with technology feels a little bit embarrassing. So yeah, Zilla please, I'm sorry. Technology wouldn't be technology without glitches. Yeah, totally agree. Okay, hi all. So I'm Zilla and I'm a project manager at Sramitsu and I've been working on Bakong project and I was like in Cambodia for several times and I have been to Cambodia and we launched this product, interesting projects. So I continued to talk about the slides, how the banks top up the blockchain account. So first of all, the banks has a correspondent or reserve account and NBC and they send their real money to this account. And after that the NBC have like digital currency money and send these digital currency money to bank digital currency account. So there are accounts in Bakong and reserve accounts at NBC and it's like equal to the bank account. It became equal. So the next slide, I guess it's yeah, how the user top ups the bank account. So usually after user registration in the mobile app, there is a digital currency account for the user and he can top up it. For now, there is a possibility to pop into the bank branch and the user provides the cash and operator just to pops the user's account from banks digital currency account. That is easy. Yeah, there are also interbank money transfer using ICO message 222 and it's made automatically so that first of all, money moves from the reserve account and then initiate transaction in Bakong. And after that, when the receiver bank gets money in digital currency, it initiates transaction in the bank's reserve account and it goes to the traditional co-banking system. So the operation just takes few minutes and it's very fast and easy. Before like banked NBC has had like transaction settlements only two times per day and now it's like 24 hours and like every day is possible during the day and very fast. Next slide, please. So user can withdraw money from this digital currency account. There is a special button in the mobile app. It's called deposit. So what means deposit? It's deposit money to the traditional bank account. So it's done through ICO 2022 message. So the user specifies bank where he wants to transfer money and enters the bank account. And so using this ICO 2022 message it will go to the core banking system and also takes just few minutes. Next slide. So Bacong architecture is... So here in the center you can see NBC, Bacong Core and Hyperledger Roja. So NBC runs all the nodes of Hyperledger Roja and trans the core system. Participants, bank participants, they connect to core system and core system already sends to all transactions to Hyperledger Roja. So and participant, bank participants, they see only transactions of their bank clients and not others. And so ground truth about the balances of money it's on the central bank ledger on Hyperledger Roja. So and yeah, as I told, bank clients they connect to Bacong system through the bank and bank already then has connection to NBC, Bacong Core and Hyperledger Roja. Next slide. So here we can see the same structure a little bit in different way. As I told, blockchain platform is run by NBC and they has core system that and every bank runs payment gateway. And these payment gateway, it's integrates with core banking system using ICO 222 message and how banks can send interbank transactions. And also there is a desktop application that is connected to payment gateway. The desktop application they use by banks operator. And also commercial banks run the mobile API that's provide access to the Bacong system. There is a question. How does bank A transfer digital money to bank B? So it's done through ICO 222. So they initiate transactions through their core banking system and then it goes to Hyperledger Roja. It settles in Hyperledger Roja and send message to core banking system of receiver bank to create this receiver transaction. So actually it's done through Iroha blockchain on Iroha blockchain settlement is done and through messages. So and it's done via API through core NBC core. I'm not sure whether I answered the question or not. I think you have. Yeah. Go ahead, go ahead money. Yeah, just I want to clarify that means it still goes via the central banks API to the blockchain or directly to the blockchain. When a bank A sends a message Iso 222 is it going directly to the blockchain or via the core banking API provided by the central bank? Yeah. So the core banking API is used for reporting. And then also as Ziya talked about when topping up the background balance that a bank has you use, we created a technical account that uses the core banking system to transfer. So the transfer of digital money only happens using the Iroha blockchain but when you enter and exit the system it does the messaging with Iso 222. Hopefully that makes sense. Okay, thank you. Okay, thank you for a question. I guess we can move to the next slide. So why Bacong? Why they decided to have this system? Why NBC wanted to have? So first of all, this is unbanked population that just they want to increase people who has access to financial services. Now only 22% of Cambodians have bank accounts and using this Bacong system there is a possibility to increase these numbers because Bacong is easy to install and use and mobile phones is like every Cambodian has mobile phones. It's like I was there and like every Cambodian has two or three mobile phones. It's not iOS, iPhone, but it's Android and everyone uses internet. Internet is very good in the overall of Cambodia and it's 4G and people use social media and et cetera. So they're very active mobile users. So using this Bacong application, NBC wants to improve these numbers. Also, large remittance markets, domestic money transfers really it's not so common, but I mean, I saw this domestic transfer but it's really cost, they have high fees and I guess it's probably for probably providers there and Bacong doesn't have any fees. Actually NBC doesn't have any fees but banks can apply some fees if they want. So it's very profitable actually for Cambodian people. Also, NBC wants to improve the usability of like internet commerce like page, digital and et cetera because credit cards are used very rare in Cambodia as well. Okay, next slide. I guess it's already for Makota-san. Yeah, so people always ask why did we use blockchain for the system and not just a regular database? It's a very obvious question, of course. There's a few reasons, some of them reasons I think are better than others but one of the main reasons is that it does give us a simplified architecture because of the different invariance of the system. Because of the different invariance that you have in the system about the validity of transactions and the trust that you can put into the ledger having the correct state because it's past distributed consensus. Also, I would like to point out that even though the central bank runs all the blockchain servers in this system, every device that includes every end user's cell phone is actually where the keys are generated. Every, it's massively distributed in that sense because every user creates their own keys and not even the central bank can take a transaction or change some data without it being tamper evident. So it also makes the system somewhat more secure and trust minimized because you don't have to trust that a single server is not going to get hacked or go down because there's no central database that has all the keys in the system. Instead, each end users has the keys that are used to sign the transaction. So it's very, I would say it's much more robust than if you used a normal database approach. Next slide. With respect to social impact, there's a lot of potential. I think we're just starting to see the potential being used. As Zia pointed out, every transaction is free of charge in the system and this allows people to quickly and easily send money back at home. I would also like to point out that one aspect that's often overlooked is that it does, it not only helps with financial inclusion but it gives greater control over finances. So in Cambodia, a lot of women, for instance, will go and work abroad or work in the capital and then those work hard, send money back home to pay for things like school or medical bills. But now they have to trust that other relatives or other people won't take the money when they remit the money back. But here, with this system, you can actually have end users pay directly to like a school or to a hospital in order to make the payments rather than having to trust or rely on other people. So it can give people who up until now have been kind of underserved and haven't really had access to controlling their own finances to actually having a lot more control and power which is, to me, that's really meaningful and very exciting use case. And I think we're starting to see a little bit of this being used in domestic remittances for now. In the future, we do hope that international remittances will also become a bigger part of the system. Next slide. So for potential impact, I mean, all this is speculative, of course, we kind of using some predictions from a bank Nagara report in Malaysia and then also a report from the bank for international settlements. It's expected that greater reduction in cash and more digital transactions can add about 1% to GDP to countries like Cambodia. And so that would equate to about a million dollars a day, which is a fairly meaningful contribution just from efficiency standpoints. There's a lot of other potential benefits, of course, too. So you can increase, a system like this increases the access that Cambodians have to banking services and as I just talked about to financial inclusion, it can also give greater transparency into the financial system which can help prevent financial crises and reduce reliance and shadow banking and things like that. I would also say that a system like this can also give access to more digital payments. And so this can help create an internet-based e-commerce industry that up until now hasn't really been a big thing in Cambodia because it's kind of hard to make digital payments. There's other problems too, of course, like logistics and things like that. But I think simplifying the payment space can help a lot because it's important to remember that unlike people in developed countries, it's people in Cambodia don't have... You can't easily get access to things like a credit card or something like that. So there are a lot of hurdles that the system helps to remove when it comes to digital payments. Next slide. So from effects of monetary policy, it's always important to keep in mind the phrase, do no evil. And really, we designed the system to not have any negative effects on monetary policy. And I think we did quite a lot of thought in this. So things like having a limit on how much can be sent per diem and designing the system so that banks are not disintermediated, but banks are actually required in the system. These help to make the system really a replacement, I would say, for curing around small amounts of cash in your wallet rather than a replacement for the banking system as a whole. And I think there's no negative effects that can be foreseen of the system, but there are new opportunities to do, I would say new types of targeted monetary policy. So for example, by doing analysis of the transactions potentially in real time, you can actually find maybe new types of statistics that are useful in analyzing the macroeconomic health of the country. And this could help with the targeted monetary policy. Next, please. Ah, let's see. Yeah, I think that's it for the demo. Yeah, I think it's really... If we have some time, I'll try to do demo. I don't have permission to share my screen, but I'm happy to... I think it's because I'm sharing mine, so probably that's the reason. Let me... Yeah, it should work now. Everybody should have the permission to share. There are no restrictions. Yeah, it works now. Okay, you should be able to see my phone here. Yeah, seems to be working. Okay, great. Hang on. Just... Oh, Jesus. Okay, there we go. Okay, so this is the app. This is actually the real app with live money. And it's slightly updated since the screenshots in the presentation materials, but the main features are the same. So you have a real account, a dollar account, because it's a dual currency system. You have the ability to receive money using DR code, which is pretty common in Asia. You can do a DR code payment. You can deposit into one of the partner institutions. So there's 20, I think, or 21, I guess it's 20, institutions that are banks and payment service providers that you can just choose one of them and put an account number. If you have an account number and you can send money to the account. But I think the main use case really besides QARP, pay would also be to send money to like a registered contact or like a phone number. So here I'll try to send the one real, maybe some message like, hello. So you can see there's the different information here. There's no transaction fee for sending one real, one real for those who don't know is about one fourth thousandth of a dollar. Okay, so I hit send and you can see there's the receipt of the transaction, including like the transaction hash. It's kind of a simplified hash for the display. It's actually already finished sending. Sending takes about maybe just two or three seconds. So you can see that already says funds were sent successfully, which is nice. And my account went from 421 real to 420. Yeah, that's about it. It's a very simple app. It's made to be very simple and easy to use. So it's about it. There's also at the bottom, you can see there's tabs for places. I'm not gonna show it because it will show my location right now. It's bad off sec. And let's see, the places just shows stores that you can use the system in. And then profile of course is profile and then you've got settings. So that's the basic features. Somebody put some, oh, okay. So there's a few questions in chat. I guess Sarah wrote that you can use, there's some promotional videos that NBC has online. And actually she's correct. They're a lot of fun to watch. They're amazing. I just, I just rewatch them all the time. They're so good. Yeah, they have Netflix. So you don't have Netflix. You just watch these videos. Believe me, Netflix is not that good sometimes. I mean, sometimes it is, but not always. Well, I'm just messing with you. A couple of questions obviously pop up. One is, you know, loss and revocation and device loss. What happens then? Okay, yeah, I'm happy to answer that. So yeah, any system that targets mass, you know, mass groups of users needs to be able to deal with when people lose their device. Not like a Bitcoin wallet, where if you lose your device, you lose your money. In Daekwong, what we have is if you did KYC at a bank, so there's two tiers, right? So the first tier is just SMS. And then there's a higher tier, which is going to the bank and doing full KYC. If you went to the bank and did KYC, you actually will get the ability to recover your account. So what you would do is you would, if you lose your device, you go to your bank, you have to go in person and with your government ID and you show them the ID, they verify it, and then you can actually change your keys. So this is in Hyperledger, Iterahod's using the permissioning features that we have in Iterahod where you can grant the ability to add and remove signatories on your account to another user. And so when you do KYC at a bank, part of that process is granting the bank the ability to add and remove signatories on your account. So this allows them to change your keys. This also means they could just take your money if they wanted to, but banks are licensed and audited regularly, so it's not a huge risk. Now, if you lose your device and you didn't do KYC, if you only did the SMS verification, then it's treated like cash. So in that case, you just lose your money, which is a little bit harsh, but generally it's to also encourage people to do KYC and not just rely on SMS. So the SMS users are just receiving money because somebody who had been KYC's, KYC'd send them the money, right? Well, or another user with SMS send them the money. Yeah, actually anyone can send money to any account, but the thing is there's a sending limit as I think we had on the slide, but if you only do SMS, you're limited to $250 per day, which is okay for many normal users, but it's not enough to pay for anything big, like a car or something. So, I mean, I've been to Cambodia, maybe in the 90s and things are very different now, but $250 could buy you a lot. I mean, you know. Yeah, it's okay. It was really interesting because I don't think I spent more than $250 the whole time I was there. Well, of course, I was staying with the people. I was traveling very light in rural areas. So that was the very, I traveled on the boats and turn lights up and all that. So that's a very interesting thing that what seems like a huge, I mean, like a small amount here can be a pretty big amount in Cambodia. So the regular KYC people can spend more than 250 a day. Right? Yeah, actually the limit I believe is arbitrary and your bank can set it, I think most banks use a default limit of around like $2,500 per day, which is 10 times the SMS limit. But yeah, I believe you can change it if you need to. The goal of the system I don't think is really to replace all transactions and it's really made to be kind of a balance between financial inclusion and helping the financial system to be more efficient and still reducing the potential for financial crimes and things like that. That being said, you'd be pretty crazy to do illegal activity on the system because all the transactions are permanently recorded and could potentially be audited. If not now they could be audited in any time in the future. So I don't recommend to do anything bad in the system but still to reduce any kind of risk there is a transaction limit that's I would say pretty conservative right now. Yeah, anybody else has questions? Otherwise I have more. Oh yeah, money is asked, can you describe your work on the latest version of Iroha and your involvement with Polkadot? Do you have plans on interoperability between Iroha and Polkadot networks? Sure, I'm happy to talk about this and then if I miss anything maybe Sarah can chip in as well. Yeah, so the latest version of Iroha. So if you go to our GitHub there's been recently a new release which is 1.2 and 1.2 is pretty nice. It's pretty nice. There's borough integration so you can execute some Solidity contracts and there's various performance and security increases or improvements. So you can check that out. It's very interesting release. Also we have Hyperledger Ursa integration which is very nice cryptographic library that is in Hyperledger. I'm personally more involved nowadays with Iroha 2 which is a Rust based version of Iroha and I would say a lot of the design is very bold and different. You can read a lot of it on if you go to the Iroha GitHub you can go to the Hyperledger Wiki here. There's a Iroha 1, Iroha 2 sections and then in Iroha 2 you can read about things like the architecture. You can read about our design. We have a lot of architecture decision logs talking about different decisions. Also on GitHub we have docs and source and then Iroha 2 white papers. This is kind of like division document that talks a lot about division with Iroha 2 system. So we have performance goals of like 20K TPS and two, two second block times. So yeah, feel free to check this out and contribute, it's open source. It's always nice to have people coming in and helping out. As for the second question, what are we doing with Polkadot? Since I'm here on the screen already in Iroha 2 we've actually been working on a bridge to substrate. So for those who don't know substrate is so I don't think all the code is merged yet but we will merge it. For those who don't know substrate is a toolkit that is being used in the Polkadot ecosystem to build Polkadot blockchains and we did build a rudimentary bridge that will work with Iroha 2 to move assets from substrate to Iroha 2 and then from Iroha 2 to substrate. And this is like a two way peg bridge with federated set of notaries. It's not production ready right now but and the code is not yet merged in our public repository but we'll put that out there for people to play with. Gee, other things we're doing in the Polkadot ecosystem are things like Sora. So Sora is a decentralized economic system that currently we're using, I think it's been moved or something. Currently we use Hyperledger Iroha for the Sora version one network and then for Sora version two, we're using substrate. So we're building a pair of chain in the Polkadot ecosystem and version three, I think we'll use Iroha 2 but we'll wait for version three. And then we're also working on Pocaswap which is a DEX that's being built on top of on top of the Sora network which is using Sora V2 network which we'll use substrate. And then for those who are really interested we're also building a wallet called Fearless Wallet which is also on GitHub and completely open source. So you can play around with it if you want. You can just go to Sora Mitsu GitHub and find some of these things. And if you go to the Sora Mitsu GitHub we have lots of things that are open. But I don't want to spend too much time on the kind of non-hypology stuff but I'm pretty excited about especially the work in Iroha 2 with this substrate bridge because I think it's important to build tools that different ecosystems at least move assets tuned from each other. Yeah, thanks for the question. Oh, anybody else? Okay, hearing no questions I'm going to start asking some more if you don't mind Makoto. Yeah, please, go ahead. So you talked about, let's go back to Bakon for a moment. You talked about the velocity of M1 but you also showed something that appeared to be M0 or some somewhat interbank transactions. So what about the velocity of M0? Do you have measurements of these? Well, yeah, so we don't have direct access to the system now that it's run by the central bank. In the test system we measured things of course but yeah, in production I don't have any data that suggests anything specific from, I mean, I just don't know the answer to this but in the cryptocurrency space at least, things like Bitcoin have a much higher velocity than US dollar, I think. I don't know what it is now, but a couple of years ago velocity of Bitcoin is about 10 times USD but it's hard to compare, right? Because it's a very different size of market caps are very different. Yeah, you can say that again. Yeah. USDT velocity is very high and USDC velocity is very high. Anyway, so that's a different story because we don't know who's moving these currents, these things, whether it's just wash trades, front running, whatever, these are all unknown to us but it would be interesting to go back to the Roja that to the Bakong system because if the Cambodian bank and the Cambodian ecosystem shares some of this information, it'll be useful for economies of similar scale and similar shape other than, you know, and maybe you can persuade them to be influential in this space because I keep hearing from central bankers that, oh, the small country shouldn't do this because they are not to set up, they're not technically savvy enough but I always see the leapfrogging effect is tremendous meaning people think other people are less sophisticated than them but, you know. Yeah, I think also in countries like Cambodia, there's a lot less baggage. Exactly. With developed countries that have many legacy systems but yeah, I totally agree that I hope that they can, you know, put out some research reports in the future and I'm sure if they have some interesting results then they would probably do that. They do publish reports sometimes. There's a brief white paper explaining this system and then a couple of weeks ago they did a macroeconomic conference at, well, they did online actually, anyone could join the NBC conference. So they are pretty good at communicating and they do, you know, they talk to other central banks of course like in the region and internationally. So I think other, you know, researchers will of course look at the data as it gets more robust. The system is still pretty small. It's only around 50k users but I think that, you know, in a year or two, you know, if everything goes well it can be quite a significant part of the payments framework in Southeast Asia. So the population of Cambodia is probably around 30 million or so, I don't know the latest number. Yeah, it's around 17 or 18, yeah. It is increasing but not that fast. Oh yeah, anyway, the thing that struck me about Cambodia was how similar it was to where I grew up in Kerala. The ponds and the, you know, the vegetation, everything was familiar to me. Anyway. Interesting. Yeah, I'd really want to go to Kerala as well. It looks very beautiful. Yeah, but we don't have a fantastic payment system like this but we do have in India there has been a lot of improvements in the payment infrastructure especially with India stack. And with the integration of the ADAR system into the whole payments infrastructure. Couple of other points about Bakong. One is benefit payments. Do you think that this could be used for benefit payment? Yeah, so this is something that I've heard some people talk about either Bakong or a similar type of system could be used to pay directly from the government or even pay salaries for government employees and things like that. I think that's a great use case. I think, I don't know if they will ever adopt anything like a UBI but if any country were going to do that than having a digital central bank money I think is an obvious choice. Even in places like the U.S. they keep air dropping money every few months it seems and so a place like that would be very good for digital infrastructure like this. Yeah, and there's a lot of, let's say friction in those air drops but with system like this it would be continuous. Now how many nodes are run by the central bank? That's a good question. I don't know how many they have in production right now but at least in the test system we used 22 I believe which is a three F plus one is the threshold for fault tolerance. So if you have seven simultaneous faults that requires 22 nodes. And there are a few different geographic locations that the nodes are put in which does help make the system more resilient in case there were at least a localized disaster or something like that. Though Cambodia is pretty secure they don't really have earthquakes or things like cyclones there. So the biggest threat of course would be something like flooding from the river or power outages which both of which are pretty easy to circumvent. What about cyber? Yeah, of course. So cybersecurity is really important. And so the payment service providers and the banks are on a separate network with NBC. So it's not like a regular internet. It is kind of a special network that is a higher security. And yeah, I think they have pretty good infrastructure for this. They seem to care a lot about having like really good hardware and network infrastructure. So it's isolated is what you're saying. Yeah, the internal system is where the ledger is supposed to be not on the regular internet. And so it's a two-tier system. So you have the central bank system with the different banks and they already have had their own separate network for many years because they have other payment systems in the country. And so they already are reutilizing this network. Yeah, I mean, the taxonomy wise, yeah, you're right that it seems more like two-tier system, but the central bank is definitely issues back home, not the regular banks. And they have to have, it's a narrow banking concepts, right? Like the intermediate banks cannot generate, I mean, they have to have full reserves backing whatever they distribute as back home. Yeah, that's correct. So, and at the end of the day, because these are like tokenized deposits in the central bank, these are liabilities of the central bank. And so it's a little bit, it does blur the distinction a little bit though because the end user is kind of has custody over these assets, but it's not totally directly, it goes through the commercial banks. So it's kind of an interesting, it's an interesting dichotomy in a way. Yeah, I mean, I think it's not a pure, what do you call it? Two-tier system as the BIS node kind of created because the central banks are running the nodes and issuing the currency. The commercial banks are only a distribution layer and of course KYC and operational layer for recovery and other things. Yeah, and I think it's a very logical system designed too. And I think a lot of the researchers, especially in Europe are a little bit too conservative or there may be just idealistic, but just because the central bank makes a system and puts it out there, it doesn't mean that suddenly it replaces everything else that is in existence. Any system takes lots of time and effort to onboard people and to expand and become a major part of the economy. And I think what we've seen, so we started using real money in Bakuang and opened up the system to anyone using it in July, 2019. And the world hasn't ended since then. The country's been doing pretty fine even with COVID. And it shows that these systems are fairly robust in that just replacing some cash that's circulating in the economy with the digital version of it for low value payments is not really, it doesn't really change all that much overnight. So I don't think central banks should be as conservative or afraid about creating a system like this because it's not really going to instantly compete with commercial banks, especially if you design the system in the correct way. I agree wholeheartedly. In fact, I'm a member of the DCGI Digital Currency Global Initiative, which is run out of the UN, ITU. And I'm actually sharing the interoperability workstream and I would be very interested in talking to you about the Polkadot stuff because that's one part. But the other part is having to listen to guys go on at length about the dangers without actually having built any systems, without having actually done anything, you know, and it's only through experiments like yours, which, you know, that we get to know more and more about the system. And that's why I think it's important that you guys have done this. It's fantastic. Yeah, I totally agree. You can't push humanity forward without taking some risks. That being said, of course, any risks should be measured, but you do have to, you know, at the end of the day, you do have to put your neck out and try to do something new, even if there is a slight unknowns or risks because, you know, that's what pushes every of us forward as a species. Yeah, otherwise I wouldn't be, you know, I wouldn't be spending so much time on the capital market thing and bringing people like you and your knowledge into this. Anybody else has any other questions because we are going to close soon? I guess... Thank you so much, the Sarmitsu team. It's been great to always learn something new from your presentations about this project. Thank you for having us. Great. Check out the videos, they are good. Well, I've been on your Telegram channels if they are anything like that. Probably close. What is that? Probably very close, I'm joking, but yeah, the NBC videos are lots of fun. Great. So let's continue this conversation. I'm extremely interested in having somebody, maybe you Makoto, I don't know who, come and talk to the Interoperability Working Group in DCGI and it is a place where you can make a big difference because there are 197 central banks there, many of them are fearful and they already had a presentation on Bakong, but it was by someone not directly connected with the project and they had many sort of, let's say not very good data on what actually is going on. The other thing is I would love for those slides to be made available, if you can. And with that, I think we should close unless anybody else has any last minute burning questions. So could we have slides or no? Yeah, I think the slides are fine to make public, so I think maybe Sarah can make a PDF or someone can. Yeah, I will send you the PDF in the email thread. Is that okay? Yeah, you can do it in the email thread, you can send it to me directly, whatever. I'm going to put a link to it on the meeting website. Okay? Yeah, sure. Thank you.