 Y wneud i felch â', bydd gweithio ddefnyddio hIF kitchens, y nifer 1 eich ddechrau'r ddechrau am y ddechrau'n anscotland, ac mae oed gyda'r ddechrau'r ddechrau'n anscotland o ran y prysau â'u gweithio, oed gwymi Ac cefnogi'r ddechrau, oed yn fawr fawr o ddechrau i gweithiau sydd yn bwysig. Mae oed yn ddechrau'n â'u gyda'r ddechrau o'r ddechrau ar y newid, oed yn gweithio'r ddechrau i'r ddechrau, Check out HIF kitchens, the number one online kitchen supplier in Scotland. Is a scary fucking place to be innit po? Every morning I wake up with it and I go to bed with it and I talk to myself dying and dying. Nothing's happened in the last seven years apart from that. Were you willing to take the blame and actually do the sentence and say it was your gun? Million miles an hour. So I went and bought a big thing of pigs blood from a abattoir. I said to his son, can we mate, he don't really know what's going to go on. I said you just do whatever I tell you and I'll get there. So we go to the scrubs six o'clock in the morning, just sitting there waiting. Got some people to film it and livestream it to the BBC and all that. And it was just, yeah it felt right. So I thought what is it with these people with this fucking word keep calling me a grass. Yeah and I look round me and there's two gazes with machine guns and my wife went pole. They've been here because I want to know what they're doing at the end of my bed. And I can barely talk that to put a finger over the top to talk. And I remember looking at them I'm thinking, what the fuck? They sometimes I want to walk out my door or get out of my car somewhere and get one in the head to give me some peace. But we're on. And today's guest we've got London's Paul Tirling. First of all just want to thank you for coming on the show. You are very well connected with one of the biggest crime families in the UK, the Adamsies. You were shot by one of your best friends. Apparently allegedly we're calling you a grass. This is one of the reasons why you're here today. You want to clear up a few things. But I always want to go back to the start my guest Paul. Kinda where you grew up and how it all began. But first of all how are you? I'm good. I'm good. Struggling mentally with it still because it's, as I've said, it's like it broke me out to be called a grass. Not being shot. It's an occupational hazard I've said it before. But the mental side of things has been odd. Really odd. Was that seven years ago? Seven, yeah nearly eight years ago. It's still playing in your mind. 24 seven. Every morning I wake up with it and I go to bed with it and I talk to myself day in and day out. Nothing's happened in the last seven years apart from that. That's why it's so relevant in my mind. Cos it happened yesterday. Repeating it over and over and over again. So where did you grow up Paul? In East Linton. I grew up in the flats that overlooked Pentonville prison. I had a wife living with my mum, dad, two sisters. Strange upbringing. Plenty of police involved, plenty of violence. Not on us but it was a mad-ass. From such a young age a lot of violence? Yeah, from five or six. Started early, early, early days. My life used to be, this is the good side of it. I'd sit on the windowsill with my legs out the window where the wind had pulled down. I'd look at everyone walking around the yard in the prison. Cos it was that close to the yard. You could look into the prison yard. And I was fascinated. Fascinated by prisoners and what's all them yellow stripes on their suits. And in night times I'd go to bed. And in them days the lights used to go out I think at nine o'clock in the prison. So I'd look out my window and watch each light go out. As the screw was turning the lights off. And as each light went out you heard you wanker. You slags calling to the screws. Terrified me. And I used to get off on the fear. It absolutely terrified me. But I also wanted to go in there. Desperate to find out what went on behind them walls. Fascinating. It's powerful with the power of the brain that in your mind you wanted to be in there. But I was scared. Lo and behold you ended up in there. It took me till 1994 to get in the village. And when I knew I was going there from Chemford it was like, now I can see what it looks like from the other side. And I was excited. You can't tell anyone you're excited. I was really excited. The fact that I'm there going to see what that little boy was looking at. Does that make sense? How old were you? When I was about four when I was just sitting there watching it. And I was when I was 94 so that was what 25 years ago. And when did you get took inside? First time. Yeah. 83. What was it like though when if you were excited to be in a prison to be in a prison did it change your mindset or were you thinking? No, because I'd done a bird before that. A ball stall? No, I'd never done a ball stall. I'd done a remand in a young offender's place. Done a bit of bird in one's rough which was for, fuck me, that was when in two years I was in there and then got moved to Albany and other places. But that's when prison was prison. Screws were screws. Kicking fuck out you, slapping out. What you understand. Yeah. If you performed you got flung down the stairs to the block. You understood that. No tellies, no phones. You had two books of reading yourself. You could have two letters in, two letters out. That was you. Yeah. Some jewels are locked so some people have got shovels on the cell now. I understand that but you know what it is. That's all to make the screws job easier. They're not doing it for you, they're doing it for him to save money. And that's what it is. Now they're putting phones in the cell. Now they ain't got to let you out, use the phone. Yeah. It's nonsense. Yeah. Your teenage years, Paul, how was that then? Were you boisterous, causing trouble? I'll be honest. My dad, I weren't that bad. I was a bit of a timid kid really. I didn't, as I say, I'd fear in me from a very, very young age. Didn't know what it was. I was riddled with it. And it actually started. I was about seven. And the kids, we was all playing football. And this is a major part of my life. We was playing football. I got called in for me Sunday dinner. So I was a seven-year-old kid. I'm going in for me dinner, gist me ball. Nah, we're carrying on playing. But they're all bigger kids. So I'll go up crying. They've nicked my ball. So he comes in with that. It's a matter of him. Cos if you cried in my house, she was a little puff. Like, yeah, you little crybaby. She came and he went, where's the crying ball? I said, I've nicked my ball. Eat your dinner. I ate my dinner afters. Now the ball situation's gone in it. It's irrelevant. I'm going out to play football. Where are you going? I went out. He went, all right, I'm coming. I put an hammer on the table. I ain't got a clue what the hammer's for. So he went, coming in. I went, come on, what? I'm thinking my dad doesn't even like football. Get the hammer. Go down the stairs. And I'm still oblivious to what I meant to do with this hammer. And he went, who took your ball? I said Tony. It was a guy named Tony Knapp who I ended up quite good friends of it. And he went, walk up behind him, hit him straight across the head with the hammer. Now, you've got to put that into a kid's head. What is? I think I was seven, but I may have been a bit younger than that. Shit. It was like, hit him with an hammer. And I walked up behind him and I was, please run away. I was absolutely, I was petrified. And as I got to ward him, I know I've got to do it, because if I don't, my old man's going to go up his head. Had you with the hammer? Maybe not, but he would have had a go at me. So I walk up behind this young kid, that Tony's got an hammer and this Tony in that run. He was about three, four years old, five years older than me. And he'd run. And then there's all commotion in the flats. My dad said to me, why didn't you hit him with the hammer? I can't remember his sentence. Eric, exactly Eric went, I didn't want to hurt him. He went, you fucking puff, you've got to start hurting people. I hurt him as I hurt you. So that was the mindset that was put in my head. Was your dad the gangster? No, he was a thief. He was a thief. He was a worker. Always supplied. Always never went without nothing. Food wise, good provider. But he didn't have a mum and dad to really look after him and he was brought up on his own. So he didn't know all these. He ain't got them skills. He's only teaching you from what he knows. He knows. So that was ingrained in you just to be ruthless then for such a young age. He hurt people. It's the only way you get in life. He's hurt people. And he just... It was an odd... It didn't make sense because my dad had got to work and then my mum would get you all dressed up in your best clothes and someone would come around and do photographs show with me two sisters all sitting there all dressed up. And it was like, hang on, she wants me to be a prince. He wants me to be a bully or a fag or a violent man. So I never ever felt where I belonged. My whole life has been that way. And as I say, as soon as I've got a chance to get out of my mum and dad's ass any time go to my aunts in Rumpford, Rumpford, Bormwood. I'd escape to there because it was my safe place. And it was... I just didn't want to be at home. I'd live up on my name, my uncle's. I was closer to my uncle than my own dad. And he knew that. Was it fear you had for your dad? It was... Yeah. Better resentment but because you weren't getting there the cardals. Didn't get what I wanted. Didn't get what I wanted. Most kids didn't get that. But with me it was... because my sister's come along it was like they was getting it all. Well, that's how it works. But I just couldn't seem to grasp that. And as I say, because I didn't get a goose with an hammer, I'm a puff. If I cry, I'm a little cry baby. He just knocked the life out of me without laying an end on me. And never ever give me a G. Men elibios. Without even knowing it. Without even knowing it. And I'll jump forward now. I'll come in one day and I just had a little bit of a thing someone had got shot. And I'll come in a night blood all over me and my hand was bleeding and my wife was in the middle of stitching my hand up. And he happened to turn up at the door. And he happened to come in and he went, what's going on? So I went, oh just whatever, don't sound so. He went, what's the fucking matter with you? Can't you grow up? And I looked him and I thought, but this is what you wanted. So this is what you want. Now I'm doing it, that ain't good enough. And it just sort of put a line under it as much as I say, whatever I do, he's never going to be good enough. So that's how you feel. He created the violent kid but yeah, when you got there he wasn't happy but that was just his demons. Doesn't matter if you had won the lottery or been a football player. He would have still found flaws. And then so he put me down. Yeah, and put you down in that. That affects you even to this day. Yeah. Cos we spoke coming up in the lift and the PST, the mental health, that going through your whole life that you're not good enough. So your whole life you'd have felt was if you had something to prove all the fucking time. The time. Yeah. All the time. So your teenage years, how violent were you then? Not really. We used to go there. I used to mainly be with my pals when I grew up from school but I was always that odd one out. Always had to go that little bit little bit further and even then I didn't feel they was dissing. They was the best friends I've ever had my schoolmates. Like who I grew up with in the flats. They was, they was my friends. They didn't need nothing. They didn't want nothing. There was no angle. There was no is an agenda. We was just pals. But even that always felt odd and I've spoke with a few of them since they went because my dad died about two, three months ago now. Sorry to hear that. Yeah. He died of that COVID thing. A jokin? Yeah. Within six days. It's still your dad at the end of the day. It's still me dad and I didn't have a good relationship with my dad. There was always a barrier there. There was always this this odd it was something we never discussed. Yeah. And I just could never and we had a bit of a rift going on over other things and about. Did you ever regret not having that conversation? Yeah. Yeah. I did have it to him near at the end I started to sort of soften myself because a few friends said to me, Paul you've got to because you'll talk to yourself saying that and do it. And I did make amends and I did say to him and it weren't him. It was me. I was the one who took it all the wrong way. You can't you can blame him but I'm a man I should have been able to get I'm nearly six though. I'm still living with these feelings of an insecure kid. That's that's really messed up. Yeah. That shit eats away at your soul man. It's eating me alive. And then yeah it was sort of there's a child it weren't that violent growing up in the years and then I met Wayne. I was working on the evening standard complete just fun delivering papers good fun. That was when I was about 17. Met up with Wayne He's got Wayne Hurran. So he was the man the cold was at John Wayne because he always carried two guns because they carried two guns they shot three coppers. Over 150 years as well he got. He was a man who had no fear. And that what is did you meet him? I was about 17 he would have been about 18. And that's when I first started carrying a knife. I went out with Wayne we went out for a drink went to the sundown in Tottenham Court Road and it was like I see it come out and I thought I didn't mind fighting but I weren't the best fighter I can't fight but I will never fucking run from no one and I thought that looks easier so then I started carrying a knife out and it become the norm going out having a drink women didn't come into it we weren't interested in women if they did they did but a fight was more important because that was my only way of getting recognition and that is how it was so how was he then in his teenage years because he had the reputation of public enemy number one Wayne was a fearsome fearsome person he could have a fight I've seen him fight Dormann a knock when he was like 17, 18 knock 34 Dormann now and just a fearless fearless man and we had a close relationship and really when I look at Wayne now God rest his soul he was he's a big part of my life because if I look at it it was only meeting up with Wayne I started getting involved in serious sort of crime carrying weapons I met my wife because he was his wife's sister my kids he had a major part in my life almost as much as what Pat did but his part in my life was good good memories family basically yeah he was and he said it to me just before he died I was on a visit and he went you know your biggest problem I went what's that he went you always thought you had to prove something I didn't know I didn't have a clue anyone was on it seen right through it everyone see through it everyone said me it's scary that I know why we always think we're normal we protect ourselves with bullshits we put ourselves around in our own wee bubble but once you actually start making changes to better your life people say I'm glad you've done that you go why because this, this and this and you go did you know exactly right and you thought you were invincible and that's the crazy side of it all because I know you've received a letter from Wayne before because he had mental health issues when Wayne got to when he was nicked he went to Brixton and the truth is he got in Brixton and they smashed the life out of him in them days that's how it worked he got in there he got a bit leirid they smashed the life out of him and he never seemed to come back from that he was like schizophrenia kicked in and he just that was just that was terrible to watch that was terrible to watch but that man had to deal with that for the next 20 plus years and it was and I actually feel so guilty that I didn't give him more and more time he can't blame yourself for that you can because you could have it was but if I'm honest it was it was unpredictable he was so unpredictable I've gone round his ass knocked on the door and he's gone pull, fuck off I went please go no, if I don't he knows he's going to do me with something he can't stop it and that's what he'd have done and I just went I want to talk to you later and he was a danger to himself he knew it, he knew it because it mitted three four mothers and it was happening to get put into a psychiatric ward no he was already in a psychiatric place when he's confessed to them so they've gone and interviewed him while he's mentally unwell and listened to everything he said and believed it and it's was it the truth? it was just medication it was boasting and just nutty talk absolute nutty talk if you've ordered these things on a phone in a prison then there's evidence that it's happened right it won't air it was said it was absolute probably fucking blown out of propulsion how can they accept that though of your medication that's why the judge flung it out the judge said to the juridist man these statements are inadmissible because they could be drugging someone up and asking them questions then without even that concern listen I'll give you another for example right my cousin was you heard about the jigsaw killer that's my first cousin that's who's ass I used to go to to escape my mum's Steven was on trial for that right I know the ins and outs of it and I'll say it now because he rang me up the morning I want to meet him and he basically told me the truth he said she stabbed the geyser in the back right I said where is he he said he's in shower gone and he just didn't know what to do with him he just he was so that's all it was a girl stabbing someone but this is the bit I'm trying to get to when he goes on trial the prosecutor his barrister said to him listen they're talking about giving you a whole life sentence now Steven at the time was being medicated from woodyll prison and was like a gone just a zombie so they asked him a straight question you need to give the judge something to stop and give you an own life sentence so he said just sitting there like that he said in the court trial they said he'd done this before have you done it before and he went like that just put four fingers up that's it he goes in the court and says he has cut up four other bodies and complete nonsense but you shouldn't have allowed that to be used in that trial and the other thing to do with that case the girl who gave evidence against him who was the main witness I should have brought a statement I forgot it she said she met the family the Adams is right she met them at Steven's Nans funeral she was introduced to Tony and Terry now they know there's not a Tony the police but they still allowed the evidence to go in printing the papers and made a big for a raw that he'd been doing what he'd been doing for them it's absolute nonsense there is not a Tony and there's a Terry but my uncle Tony and Terry they were Steven's uncles not them but they allowed that in as evidence and it just crucified him with him going like that and he said he was a mass murderer they all said he was getting rid of bodies listen just because he lifted his hands up lifted four fingers up because he was told and let's get it right she said he used to do it with me we was the ones who used to do that the jigsaw killers that's not fuck's sake pull no wonder your head's fried do you know what I mean do you know what I mean but you imagine I've got all that going on in my head and I've now got to go to people and go listen I'm going to mark your card about something this has been said in cult and it's like what the fuck's that got to do with us and it just your old head starts bus at spirals as well with the papers the news everything they just didn't stop because you glued yourself to the fence as well with Wayne's son what happened what happened I had someone in the prison they rang me up on a Saturday morning and said Paul Wayne's killed himself I said what do you mean he's killed himself but we've heard Wayne's died three or four times in the past it's never been true obviously and they said Wayne's took his own life so okay we find out we do a bit of backtracking the girlfriend phones the prison the prison gets in touch with them so blah blah blah so it's an on game thing I'll get the next phone call is to tell me blatantly Paul Wayne asked to see a listener you know what listener is yeah Wayne's asked to see the listener the listener was took out of his cell gone around three or four other cells just before bang up he said to the listener this is in this is fact said to the listener we won't worry about Aaron he's barricaded up anyway which he was well you shouldn't be going home if he's barricading up and leaving him and secondly he's asked to see a listener you should have took the listener to him and they didn't next morning they're coming Wayne's dead so when I heard that they've allowed him or he's murdered himself but this ain't this ain't fair this ain't right he was a sick man he was an ill man he should have been treated in an hospital tried to get him to move to an hospital so what I've done I thought I can't deal with this don't forget I haven't done anything for seven years I've just had my head wrapped up in my own little world so I went and bought big thing of pigs blood from an abattoir said to his son come with me he don't really know what's going to go on I said you just do whatever I'll tell you and I'll get there so we go to the scrubs six o'clock in the morning sitting there waiting got some people to film it and live stream it to the BBC and all that and it was just it felt right it wasn't a lot else I could do my hope was the screws was all going to come out and then I could have had a fight with all the screws and really caused the scene because that's how I felt and it was just it worked perfect and it was just right I went right Paul ran to that gate there's the gorilla glue glue yourself to the gate make sure you get in a position so they can't open the gate either way we shut the prison down and I watched him and he just you didn't even see him he just sort of walked through the thing and just done it and then I just done what I've done with a blad and then I had time to put myself on the gate but it was we was on in most of the day and it just felt it just felt good I felt alive like a protest did you feel like your old self yeah I felt I thought even though it's a protest causing mischief and just it made me feel good it made me think this is what I've missed this it wasn't nothing serious but it was an adrenaline rush and also it gave me strength I felt the strength come through that prism from him that's how I felt it was like his spirit had that place and it was just yeah it was good is that when you feel alive, violence angry and just up to mischief is that when you feel good it's a scary fucking place to be in it Paul it is ain't a nice place but it's a normal place it's all you know it's in your comfort zone when I'm sitting in doors doing nothing cos I don't want these people in my life no more they're not they're not proper friends they talk about loyalty and all this shit they're only as loyal as they got to be with me I'm loyal way beyond I should ever be with anyone I'm one of all my friends, if you're my friend I'll die for you all I can ever offer a friend is and I've always said it to people my loyalty my liberty and my life there's nothing else I can give you then you're best job aren't cos what else can you want is that why you've been so broken over the last 7 years because you're loyal to everyone what you are capable of doing for others willing to die, willing to go to prison for life so how did it come about then that you and Patrick became friends who was Terry's brother one of the biggest crime families in the UK so how did you and Patrick become friends I met you in Wunsworth I was in Wunsworth on Ewing and I was shouting out the window to someone in the block, I was arguing and I heard a voice go, is that Paul Tienan and I went, yeah who's that it means Padams and you know the first thought coming to my head fuck no he knows who I am what the fuck's happened I was privileged and what he knows who I am, how can he know who I am anyway long story short he got there 2 days before screw coming to drag him out of bed and he attacked the screw and he got put in the block and the first involvement with him was a geyser was slagging him off was slagging his family out of the windows a black geyser and he went, Paul do us a favour I went to your course and I nearly come unstuck with the geyser because he was the right lump and it took two of us to have him over at the end of it but that's how I got to know Pat and that's how your relationship grew how long was that for 30 well that was in 84 so I worked that out 30 odd years, 35 years which is a long time 35 years what was that sentence for you were in prison for that was for stabbings I was nick for free stabbings in a pub in Islindon which was yet again they're in the pub they're just having a good time one bumps into your summer season bump into your you look at them they look at you and you think you feel like I can't and I stabbed three in my ass no big wounds or nothing dramatic I stabbed three in my ass and I got nicked about fuck me a month later I was going into Enfield police station to sign them for a bell case and they took me to King's Cross one note but the funny thing is we were driving down in the green lanes there's three of them with me and all I can hear behind is an engine roaring bibbing flashing lights and I know it's my dad in my heart I know it's my dad and in one of them went Paul is that your dad I went and I looked over his shoulder and it was him he hated the police hated the police with a vengeance and I said just pull over and just ear him out just ear him out and they heared him out and they went nothing is going to happen we ain't going to do that but that gives you an insight into what I was brought up around where the police are concerned what was it like for you to stab someone enjoyment sense of power it was it was done today stabbing people in the heart why are they stabbing people in the full blown chest with big knives like that when those kids you give them after you didn't even give them the top of the thing bang bang and it's finished you ain't there to kill them are you you're there to win the fight and not get hurt yourself but today these kids yeah it didn't mean nothing in 2007 as we all you get jail for guns nubs what happened what happened I was I've met someone the day before no on the day and later on this fella goes where he goes I'll go where I'll go I'm at home he gets arrested anyway I'll find out the next day he's been nicked for unloading a lorry unloading a van with two bags then the van went the drive away the van gets stopped they find 17 kilo of air in in the van in the bags it was 23 and guns silences bullets blah blah blah so fella gets nicked later on that night the kids dad gets nicked who I met he goes to trial I'll get let me stop I go to a prison visit called grendan you know grendan I went to visit someone in grendan prison the lifer I come out and as I walked out I just sensed it and as the gate opened I looked and it was just 15 of them soccer old bill standing there probably being arrested for so and so obviously I know what they're talking about because obviously I know that this fella's been nicked since then so this is a good six months afterwards I go up bow earing after bow earing not bow earing produced myself at the police station done me first when I've done the interview no comment no comment that was it no further action job finished he goes up and gets a knock your way so that's how strong the evidence was on the man well it was obviously a lot lighter on me wasn't it so that was it, end of subject and then out the blue and don't forget this is the thing I'll I've been nicked twice on my own once with a gun in the car and once coming out of the prison I'm nicked on my own no one knows I'm nicked so I've got carte blanche to be a rat because no one knows it's not like I'm with someone and I've written a statement against them I have the next morning when I come out of the police station I'll go straight round to everyone and say listen because I'm ashamed that I've got the word heroine written on my charge sheet not my charge sheet, my bow sheet it's that's a no no where I come from that you cannot entertain that shit and it's an unwritten rule that everyone's stuck by that's why you didn't have no smack dealers in Iceland they got jogged on they would be terrified to sell that shit so for me it had been nicked for it was really shameful for me even I didn't know, shameful so there no further action four years four years, what was that for? for the stabbings so your best friend will get to this topic now calling you a grass and he got nine years for shooting you what's the full story with this? the bottom line is he switched on me I had to talk to him just before we fell out and I know what it was about because Pat had been out of crime or any involvement in anything for the best part of 30 years that ain't no lie I'll come out of prison in 2000 and he was a different person he was chilled he was relaxed he weren't mixing with anyone who was at it so when he would be in England I wouldn't do nothing because I do not want to draw him into a conspiracy down to me he ain't going to ever be down to me he won't be down to me so I would make sure when he was here I didn't do nothing, I'd never seen no one when he went home then maybe I duck and dive but where was he going with that? just about how he's met and how he should have begun so he says to me someone's doing something around me someone's doing up to no good and I can feel it around me with the old Bill and all that so I said well let me assure you one thing it ain't me when he looked at me I went it's not me well if it ain't me there's only one other person close to you so he should have answered the question himself I weren't about to tell him and that's just me I can't tell tales my dad brought me up not to tell tales on people and it's like even this sitting here now I don't feel right I feel I'm out of my comfort zone because I'm thinking hang on a minute Paul you're fucking talking on a thing and it's yeah so anyway the argument it was left he won't come and clear the air and nothing he's avoiding me but he's avoiding me because I think he knows he was wrong and then as time went on it got worse then I get called a smack dealer now he's dragging up something from where was it 10 years before I was a smack dealer I've never touched a smack in my life were you talking bollocks for you know that's not me he knows it's not me but now he's said he stole that and then the next thing is I get told he's calling me a police informer he grabs some people up on a smack deal were you talking about your prick because that's exactly what I thought were you talking about you're acting like a fucking idiot because the people that I'm nick with was found not guilty and have stood in my corner and gone were you talking about fuck what do with him are you talking about yourself because the people around here pay lip service are you getting away with it so did that fuel to the fire then yeah that fueled it up so my first move was right you won't face me you won't hear me out so I'll get in touch with Pat's Lizard I said I want to organise a light detector test you know that I'm not 100% I said listen I've got no other angle to go at to test done I said I'd go and do it didn't even I just when I know what the answer is going to be come back all every one of them no no no no so I go down I put it in a few places put it in spills couple of doors different people got it everyone got it then his son starts mouthing off yeah but he might have been on special pills that stops it working and and I thought what have I got to do here and people went pull you ain't got to do that why are you putting yourself through this yeah why not just walk over here I can't because as I just said you I've got nothing in this world my name is all I've got and I'm not going to allow you or anyone else to grasp me off you ain't doing it I've always swore I've said this to his son I've always swore anyone ever called me a grass I'm going to kill him I said but the difference is I love your dad and I still can't even consider that because I did you think it was the fact because it came from him it was more heartbreaking for you it was like my dad calling me it it was that painful that I've give the man I put him before my wife and kids my daughter said to me dad you think more of his fucking son than you do of us this is when I come out of Oswell and I went I did sorry I did but that's the life I was in it was I would feel if something happened to his boy and I weren't now I would be responsible in my head no still listen let me just say this people are going to go you've got to be off your fucking head but I don't care I would protect if I could would be him and the reason why because he's the only one who can give the truth there's no one else on this planet can clear my name other than him telling the truth to his dad that's all I've and that's all I've ever wanted I won't even want his dad to fall out of him I just want him to be a man stand up and just say dad because you can imagine if I'm going through this you know he's going through it because that boy now is riddled with secrets and lies and he knows what he's caused he's caused indirectly he's dead to go to prison with his lies and his dad got a name his dad got a name what happened on the up run up to the shooting it was there was a many teams did you get shot three teams one threw it through here took me rib out threw me what's it called your bow, my liver and it come out here I read it was three times but it must have been it was a dumb dumb bullet no 45 fucking art to you that never in my life have I felt something so painful did you think that he would have shot you listen this is an odd one because I'll have to go back result to what Pat said in Colt and Pat said in Colt his defence was I had a gun I had a gun I pulled the gun out he run across the pavement, dived in the car window wrestled the gun off me shot me with a gun and run away sounds like Jason Bond as well doesn't it self defence but you've done something you always said you would be against the rules you don't stick on someone I was quite happy to go to prison for seven years for the gun I would have still done it even after all had gone on I would have done it did I ever think me and Pat would have got to that situation never because I thought he'd have been a man and admitted he was wrong and just set back and gone you know what he fucking has been a loyal friend to me loyal and listen mate he could never have a friend like me never and I don't think he actually realised I think he just took it for granted were you willing to take the blame and actually do the sentence and say it was your gun million miles an hour was it put on you to take it no one even, no one or done it by two what happened I come at your spill and he probably don't even know this so he slither and I sit down and I said let me just tell you something I said there's no witnesses you can't know that I said trust me I was the one laying on the floor when my eyes shut and me is open no witnesses see anything and they didn't I know they didn't and it was like so this is I'm willing to hold my hands up and say I had the gun I told the truth and he went but it doesn't really help him I said really? are you fucking mad? he's going to get a life sentence anyway long story short I've got the police driving me mad they come round with osmond letters your life's in danger over an unpaid debt I'm lying I didn't know anyone anyone any money 100g worth of debt which people have helped me out over the last eight years because I ain't functioned I ain't lived I ain't functioned so people have stepped up people that weren't really my friends they only become my friends because they don't like him that's the truth of it and they've come to me and they've gone and looked at me and helped you out and all that thank you lost gun of track again James all you were talking about I was going to call up and take the blame so they come round with osmond letters non-stop three osmond letters and then I'll get a visit from them and you know what an osmond letter is I said listen mate go away I'm not interested in what you can do and I'm in danger and all that if it comes it comes I might be on that and then they rang up just before the trial I said listen Paul will you give evidence this is two days before the trial and I said right I said I'll tell you straight forward now for me to give evidence for you I'll be incriminating myself and he went would you mean I said exactly what I'm saying he went so what you're saying is I said what I'm saying is what I've just said I said end the subject so when they're going to call luckily luckily the coser went and told the prosecutor what the conversation was which I suppose in a way you've got to give that copper a bit of integrity haven't you he's got a bit of integrity to tell the truth because he's really kibosh in his old trial by doing that and he went and told the pros and the pros had to admit it that they concede that even Mr Tin and his lying Mr Tin is telling the truth which we can't refute it and other witnesses which means Mr Adams must be telling the truth they accepted it took the gun off of him did he get caught with the gun no but what they'd done they dropped the charge of the gun and just standing with excessive self defence and he got a nine for that not only have you lost your best friend you've been shot and you've still got the question mark about being a grass so how has life been in the last seven years there's no life there's I'll probably get slagged up by saying this what I'm going to say now but in hindsight if I'd known how this next seven years was going to pan out for me and probably the next forever I don't know I hope not but maybe it will maybe this will give me some peace I would have rather died on that payment I would have rather died on that payment my wife and kids would agree for a year or two years on with their lives without me causing just upsetting everyone you imagine I'm having this conversation every opportunity if I don't have it with someone I'll have it with myself walking around the fields every day so yeah I would have rather died on that payment him and his old woman went to prison for 30 years which I could have done nothing to stop everyone's happy everyone was fucking happy what was it like being shot was it like someone putting a hot poker was it like someone putting a hot poker just slowly pushing it through you and it was like I know what I've done I can remember it I put it in a park because I was in drive I was just turning out I put it in parks I knew it was going to run into people got out tried to run but I couldn't so I dropped on one knee and I looked across the road and he was staring at me like that and I think it was like the look was oh fucking hell what has happened here this shit have happened and I just said you're a wanker that's the only thing I could think the same I said you're a wanker how's life been then if anybody ever came to use your life in danger now or is that nah listen some of the things that come out of people go can you think that but I'm being straight sometimes I want to walk out my door or get out my car somewhere and get one in the head to give me some peace my head is it's like this fucking sack full of parrots of monkeys jumping around in my head all the time I can't take it it's wearing me down you seen anyone about that I did but it becomes to the point of you start to feel that you've got to give them it you've got to tell them the truth you've got to open up you've got to surrender but your dad will still bend your mind but you need to surrender to the pain it was like even even though I fell out of my dad when they what happened with him when his text I sent a text he's meant to have insulted my wife and granddaughter behind my back right someone come over my ass and told us what he'd been saying and I thought I can't act that so I sent a text it's kind of a mean park if you've read on the transcript he says it in it meet you over the park near Broenol long story short the text comes back you're a grass your dad sells child pornography so I thought what is it but his people with his fucking word keep calling me a grass so after the shooting goes on and I'm out of hospital for about six months maybe a bit longer I sit down with my dad and I said right I want to know when you got nicked with him years ago what was you nicked with and he went what do you mean I got my sister around her and on to hear it and he said right there was 50 books in the shop this is 40 years ago weren't my dad's shop it's a guy's name Mickey Tepper shop he was running the shop the books got delivered amongst the books there was two child pornography books which can range from the ages of 15 whatever I don't know I weren't there so I don't know and he said child pornography books I got 12 months so I went dad he's shaming us what are you doing and he went Paul would you expect me to do what do I do I either take the nicking or a grass Mickey either way I can't win he said I'd rather go to prison than be a grass and you know what I had to take me out of gym for because I know most people out there wouldn't have done that but he hated the police he couldn't surrender to the old bill but that got flung in my face that made me a bad man that's the strength of the abuse and that came mainly from his wife that weren't really pats talking that was his wife when's part two he's home would you try and make him in as it done it's never going to be done with me simple reason I forgive him completely completely forgive him for what happened because I challenged him I called him on I kept on and on looking at him and bump because I wanted to clear the air but there was this one bit no one was going to allow me to get next to Pat the mum or the son the son can't allow me because he knows the truth is going to come out and the wife can't allow her son to be able to go out so let's throw a paw under the bus that's what happened did you never think about writing a letter or anything I've written a letter I've written a letter in prison Pat I never dreamed me and you would have ended up like this never you being in prison at nine years and me actually being the cause of it that's how bad the narcissistic side turned me that even I thought it was my fault I had a fax in my fault but I took it to blame that's what I was willing to go and do a fucking seventh organ willingly so you never stuck them in or anything for that day or anything and you're willing to take the blame of course I would it's crazy man so where do you go from here Paul where do you go you still try to get some closure on this the demons the demons are there forever because my wife don't understand none of my friends who I see now understand and I've been given some good solid advice right from people Paul he's the one who's lost out he's lost a fucking friend he'd never find he's only ever had two friends in his life and both of them have been called grasses no evidence, no fax just because that's what I want to call you well I still can't look if I'll tell you someone's been to my ass and told me you've been insulting my wife and granddaughter what are you going to do you're going to want to know who told you I never said that so this man's a liar but this man is also a stirrer who's come and told me so I don't get the this is all about one thing keeping him away from the truth that's all this is about keeping him away from the truth don't you have addiction issues, Paul me? yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah on what? started with cannabis, blues, speed coke, crack full blown full blown ironed out every dollar I had when was this? 2002 2002 I suppose I started doing it since I was 14 but a crack that's when the problem started that's when it got too much for me how long were you on that for? four years, five years every day, a quarter of a day every day a quarter of a day man that's four years we were talking millions that's what all my kids are living with me cos they've got nowhere else to live I just I don't want all my money and what money I did have look this is this is what eats me right I get called a smack head a smack dealer a thief cos I also rob people a grass my wife and granddaughter will get in so with behind my back and on top of it I'm in a fucking hospital in a coma and the first thing they think they're doing is we take his money and all they're fucking they're shabby not on anyone's word on a lie he's been told another lie another lie even it's none of it matters none of it fucking matters I would give anything for half hour of conversation with him just to go right bang bang bang bang bang there's your answers yes I'm wrong for not telling you I couldn't have told tales I couldn't have do you not think the moment it's time to maybe just walk away and just try and love your life some closure on it yourself everyone I talk to, whoever they are cos look what you've already lost I've lost everything so you're loyal and it's scary to think that you're still trying to be loyal and still trying to get some closure because that's like you say all you've got is your word and but look what it's got you listen it has got me there cos it would have been a man if I would have been a friend on the listen, when he's he's not involved in nothing no more and I am it's not a lie I can do about that so I've got to eat, I've got to live still I've done all my money on fucking drugs he don't know that, it's not his concern so for me to I should have gone to him and said listen I'm trying to tell you I've flung this person under the bus like he flung me I still felt I couldn't do it I couldn't do it it's not in my make-up it's really not in my make-up do you drink on anything now? now I ain't drunk or touched drugs for 10 years now congratulations and you think have you all wrote a book on anything Paul? I've been offered an opportunity to do two books one of them I wanted to, it was my life story but there was really more in concerned about about them, that's what they wanted to know about well that weren't about what I wanted to do and bottom line is I said they said what sort of money? I said I don't know money if I write a book it's for nothing it's because I need to get it out of me and this is it two books, newspaper articles television interviews which people are trying to get early doors rejected everything because it ain't about money with me it's Stephen Nair, it's Lloy it's keeping my word and Lloy is all I've got why are you telling your story now? because I thought this might help me exercise a few of the demons therapy speaking about that are you hoping maybe Pat sees this as well and maybe reaches out that he won't because he's I put the word in straight up he's a fucking narcissist he don't admit he's wrong he don't ever apologise to no one because he's Pat he can do it once say what he wants because he never gets pulled at the task and nobody's ever tried to put any hits out in your life since the first shooting? I've got no enemies out there my only enemies are his enemies that's the only enemies I've ever read I don't blow my own trumpet it's just something I don't, I ain't got that that sort of way of doing it I'm a fucking good man I've been a little man and I've been a good man I've always stuck to the rules I've always done things right to the best of my ability whether they're right and other people go why don't you do it this no because I'm not giving out any niche in out people love ammo on you you're not having ammo on me fuck you so for the future then you're thinking about maybe doing a couple of books still working on the mind trying to quiet it down a bit stopping the monkeys and the grillers jumping about just banging heads I've got to get through it I've got to get some help because I've been to some bad low places I've been to some terrible places in my mind where I look around and I think everyone I see they just must think oh here it comes again and I'm turning the same because it's fresh in my mind the brain only repeats what it knows though there's nothing else going on in my life you think you're too proud to go and ask for help are you scared to open up completely and get everything out that because let's face it seems you start making changes your conscience grows tenfold you start thinking about the misery and pain you've got and that shit is tough but you need to push through that to create change like I said earlier the brain only repeats what it knows so the 60,000 fox you get a day just now you're taking into the next day unless you start doing something different whether that's opening up, speaking the truth and putting your cards on the table obviously you need to be careful what you're saying here but I think you've had a good credit to yourself to put things from your own mouth because the papers and shit they can twist words they blow things out of proportion but yeah man it's all down to the individual how much you've got to change and as long as you've got air in your lungs you've still got something to give life no matter how fucked up your past is no matter what you've done people can make changes to better their life and actually quieting this down it's difficult because you've had what 60 years of trauma, pain, misery, heartache you don't know how to fucking deal with that you dealt with all that through violence that's how I've got my gratification do him, never say in the word no were you all leaked in London? I like to think so I don't hear many people run me down the only people that run me down are people that talk to him because they're scared to say well mate I've been funny I don't book him with a grass and I think he's a fucking good man because he saved your fucking life sentence that's for sure what do you think for anybody watching of a life of crime who maybe think it's good to go down that route the violence, the anger, the frustration it seems like a good idea I had this when I went to the schools when I came out of the hospital talking to young kids trying to get them out of the gangs and all that and it ain't what it's really just like it says in the films and in the books all that loyalty and you'll be looked after in this and that no you're only as good as your last favour that is you, you're just used your cannon fodder, you're there to be used and abused and the sooner you see it the better because you're being situations people that you could be put in a situation where you might have to do something to your best friend now live with that and that's the sort of situations people get in it's a crazy it's the most false existence I've wasted all my life on these principles and morals that 60 years down a road fuck me look at me, I'm a broke the man yeah I've had a lot of criminals on and people who's had some very colourful past and I see the vulnerability I see it and I believe no matter what you're doing live the brain stores everything so if you do some painful shit to other people that stores it so a lot of people who've either went down the suicidal route or addiction problems because in here we're ashamed, we're embarrassed of the misery and the destruction of what we've caused and no matter how tough you are that's still in here and I've seen the toughest men become the weakest and the weakest become the toughest but you can make the changes and the sacrifices and if you're speaking through schools to show other kids not to go down that path maybe that's the route you should be really looking down but I think I was a bit too old for them and there was mainly black kids in Tottenham and they're looking at me as much as I say I don't know what they're thinking but they did listen to me primary school kids at their last year which is where you've got to catch them don't catch them when they get to secondary school because it's done they're in the mix now yeah but as I said regrets and all that, yeah when I woke up in that hospital I was in a coma for five weeks and I remember just waking up and I've got a tracky thing coming at me I don't know what's going on Is that why you do that? I don't know, I keep doing it but it was a constant thing and yeah and I look round me and there's two gazes with machine guns and I went and my wife went pole they've been here because I want to know what they're doing at the end of my bed and I can barely talk that to put a thing over the top to talk and I remember looking at them and thinking what the fuck and he went to me pole we were here to help you, right what can you remember we've been here for three weeks and as soon as you walk up they ask that and I went let me just tell you something you've been here for three weeks, four weeks your job's done you can go home now but I said thanks for looking out at my family they didn't need looking after I said but I appreciate it anyway and they walked out coming in to me and offering me deals to throw him under a bus I mean a brand new life go here, you can have this they come to me and offer me things that are like really are you that desperate and I know he's not been involved in crime 30 years I know he ain't that's fact and he's still that desperate to defending him again, isn't he but that's because I'm doing it again but it's obviously you know where your lawyer is lying maybe he's hurting as well just as much as yourself but you don't know from people who weren't in that life and look outside from that name, it's a big name everywhere so it's difficult obviously even for you to speak about it will still bring back a lot of emotions when you were in hospital after being shot did you have many visitors well not as anyone who came up there it was that to give their name and all that at first but that was art of the foot and then after I'd come out to come and my wife wouldn't let no one in to me a couple of good friends who was there and they'd been good friends still now and I'll always love them because you know yourself if you're in prison you say shit hits the fan nobody is there to be seen nobody is there to be seen people need to understand a leaf of crime is a leaf of misery he was telling people no one's allowed to visit him who makes you the fucking sheriffs do you know what I mean but do you feel good do you feel safe enough that your life is not in danger or anything nine years later now that he's out I don't care I genuinely don't care for me these days I'll get out of bed and death will be a release death will be I've said it to my wife the only time I'll ever be at peace is when I'm dead because that brain will go bang and it's off I don't want to but I can't carry on like this for another 10 years for me personally I would seek help I would speak to someone and get and let your cards out on the table someone who where it's a private conversation it's trust and it's a sense of release a sense of therapy to you're at that stage now you're at the crossroads you're thinking I'd rather be fucking dead just to stop those thoughts but you're still here so you're clearly here for a reason well that's what I've been with a lot of since this I've had seven lots of surgery down to the shooting and it never stopped for the first three years but I got myself fit got myself healthy again and I mean I got super fit again and then bang I'll get blood clots on the lungs and there it's took me backwards again I've put weight on and I can't train there it's just like a vicious circle yeah it's just a bit of depression in that as well you know yourself if you're feeling good it gives you that bit of self confidence plus you've got the serotonin dorfans dopamine, the stuff that fights depression anxiety, fear the exercise is key for our methods of thinking the madness, the craziness the fucking darkness, the pain the exercise is key can you exercise then with blood in the lungs is it all been drained it's the excess strain on the heart in it we were getting tablets we say aspirin and shit blood as well but you can't exercise then not really because you can't get your heart rate up just in case it clots well the pills will stop it clotting anymore what about meditation I've had a go at that when I was in the rehabs and all that because I've done all the rehabs and I can't seem to get it right I was looking up the other day and I thought what am I going to do I'm going to go and find a monastery in the middle of India and just live in a monastery for a couple of months and find myself six weeks, two months, places do that they do ones where it's a silence place where you don't see anything, just sit there meditate because it's all a bit quiet in the mind down and your mind ain't going to change unless you choose something totally different totally different to put yourself out of comfort zone because I believe we all want make changes, we all want a better mindset difficult to live in a very fast world and especially the demons and the pain that you've seen it's just on repeat it's just like somebody's just pressing fucking repeat here you go again, here you go again but quiet in the mind, meditation, breathing techniques I jump up mountains man I do call war exposure any cold water I need to push myself to the extremes because if I don't I slip into depression and I slip into it fast and then it's over eating and then I'm scared that open the door because if I start having a drink or having a line or placing one bet that all fucking come through the door and within two weeks I've fucked everything so it's very slippery slope but like I said earlier here for a reason hopefully you can get things sorted hopefully you can get some closure maybe make amends I don't know but for you to come on and tell your story mate it takes balls as well to speak about it I'm glad I've done it I'm it's got out of me what was eating your life obviously some's held back which is only for easier's but you don't want to hear it, don't want to hear it would you like to finish up on anything Paul? no no just the last thing I'd say and this is the other side of that life of that morals and principles and the law in sticking to the rules and the code I laid on that floor and this thing comes back and I laid on that floor with my eyes shut thinking right all I could hear was what's your name what's your name I would have died like a man I'm not even going to tell them my name what the fuck was that about and they ended up getting the passport out of the car and going over my wife and that's all I was thinking about you make sure you die like a man is that your dad talking? yeah it's got to be you don't tell the police nothing no no nothing and I thought after it all comes back you think to yourself how mad was that I did say one thing the one woman I said tell my family I love them that's all I said to this woman who's walking by did you think you were dying? yeah I knew I was going I knew I was going did you die? no the last thing I remember is in the scan and I looked up and I see a red cross which is the CT scan thing and he went to me just old on stalwag and I went on going and that's the last thing I remember saying fucking scary man and then fucking dreams then dreams you have oh mate they are horrendous afterwards you're divorcing? yeah but it was a waking up that day and looking around me and seeing people's faces and I'd lost about five stun over that month in the intensive care and I looked round and I thought now you know how other people feel how many people have you put in this situation for what and it gave me this this I don't know do you think karma comes into play with that problem? yeah yeah you was over this I was over this karma's a powerful thing I was over it and that's the one thing I've got to say this about Pat he used to always say this whenever I say anything about anyone it always comes back and bites me on the ass and it does and he won't survive the calling people grass he's done come back and bite him on the ass that's crazy man but if you're coming on a day mate and telling your story Paul I really appreciate it really appreciate it thank you God bless