 Welcome back. Now 2023 is in the news again, but this time it's not about who is running or what tribe should get it. At this time, former Speaker of the House of Representatives, Yacuba Dogara, is stating that if we, that is Nigeria, select the wrong leaders in 2023, we would be bringing the apocalypse on ourselves and the country. He added that the most immediate challenge now is to select conflicts or settle rather conflict and pull down our barriers and that issues of our development, although important and not the most immediate. Joining me to discuss this is Lulu Elegbe, a public affairs analyst and Okbe Oginioho, a developmental specialist there. Many thanks, gentlemen, for joining me on this, this course. Now 2023, some people would say it's just about two years from now, but then is it too early to start talking about the crop of leadership or leadership that we should be expecting in 2023 vis-à-vis all of these challenges that have been plagued the country in recent times, talk of issues of self-determination or cause for self-determination, issues of insecurity in the Northwest, in the Northeast, in the South, is right now. Let me start with you, Lulu Elegbe. What do you make of all of this? What should we be looking at when we talk about the right leadership structure in Nigeria? Hello, Lulu, can you hear me? Did you get my question? I can barely make out what you're saying. All right, okay, I'll come back to you. Let me get Okbe back because I can't hear what you're saying. Lulu, let me start with Okbe. You know, you had my postulation and of course all of the issues that we have. Do you think electing the right leader or leadership in 2023 will actually bring about the needed change we need to see in Nigeria? Yes, so I think I heard you in the first account. I do not think that showing anybody within the structures that it is right now will have any significant difference on Nigeria's trajectory. I mean, if there is anything the Boria administration has shown to us right now, it is that whatever the people believe that maybe a big man by virtue of his, you know, disposition of body language right now will one way or the other kind of system that has been proven to be a policy as impossible. So I think that the speaker statement was just maybe clever by half in the sense of that. I mean, he was able to articulate some of the challenges we have regarding security on employment and now the entire country is more or less volatile at this very junction and, you know, primer for some kind of need for a degree of a consensus of a coming together to determine what kind of government we should even run in the process, you know, but it's not it's definitely not a good back to a political elite making it about themselves and trying to, you know, break down every single conversation towards who gets elected. I mean, it's 20 years, it's more and more years away from the 2023 election. And from all he can hear has to say about what is going on, is how the present arrangement is fundamentally going to be about who 2023 is. The present administration as you see, there's still so much they can do. What about, you know, what the government is presently doing wrong? The center cannot hold today, it's not going to hold in 2023. Who even says 2023 is going to be level of ability to do the same? As of today alone, there's been reports of violent conflicts in up to about 10 states. There's been in Kirby, there's been in Kaderah, there's been in Yobi, there's been in Lagos, there's been in Rivers, you know, there's been in Anambra, you know, in a substance-intensive film of violence. So what are we talking about in 2023 and political leadership? You know, so I always say, you know, pick up the greatest leaders that you know in the world over. Introduce them into the Nigerian system, as it is right now, there's not much they can do. It's a system problem. So that's my that's my own position on that statement. All right, thank you, Okpe. Lulu, let's bring you into this conversation now. Okpe seems to think that the issue in Nigeria is systemic and not necessarily that of a leadership. Specifically said, if you if you brought the, you know, the leaders from the western world or those highly acclaimed leaders, the issues might not really change right now. But do you really agree that we have an issue of leadership as against the issues of maybe division and no love lost amongst various ethnic biases in Nigeria? Well, I agree with him partly, but I think it's both. I think it's systemic and I think it's leadership as well. And I also agree with what he was saying. If you look at just what's happened the last few hours today, we're talking about 2023, but the rate of which we're going in terms of violence, in terms of chaos, there may not be 2023-19 every week. If we continue at this pace, it's quite disturbing where we are. So when we start talking about 2023 and the kinds of leaders we want to see elected, it almost feels like a false narrative in a way because that's not really the most important thing right now, to be honest, because if we don't deal with the immediate issues right now, then it doesn't really make any difference who's president or who's senator or governor or whoever in 2023. If you don't which is what I agree with, if you don't fix the system, it really makes no difference who is in the leadership position. It could be the most competent person on the planet, but if he's forced to work within a system that doesn't function, then he's not going to be able to do anything. It's that simple. I think it goes beyond who elect or don't elect in 2023. It's a lot more nuanced than that, I think. Okay, Lolo, if we fixed some of these issues that both you and Akbar have outlined, the issues of anti-curity, the issue of stagnated growth in terms of the economy, and we have that fixed, and we have maybe like a greenhorn who has not really been so experienced when it comes to the issue of leadership, maybe various fears of his life, do you think would not have a problem? So you're saying that if we had a political leader who has no leadership experience, or who has no political experience, or who is practically inexperienced, and maybe some of these issues have been fixed ahead 2023, and we bring someone who doesn't really have a pedigree of politics and leadership in Nigeria, do you think would not have issues also? No, of course we're going to have issues. That's why I said it's two things, it's systemic and it's leadership. So it's not just one thing, I think, because end of the day, like I said, if the system's not fixed, then it doesn't matter who's the leader. But even if the system is fixed, then you still need a competent hand to drive that change. You're not going to be able to do it that way. Now, in terms of someone who has no political experience, my personal view on that is that it's a mistake, because whether we like it or not, politics is politics. Anywhere in the world, not just in Nigeria, you still have to deal with politicians, their political realities that anybody has to deal with. And usually when people say things like, oh, I'm not a politician, that's why you should vote for me because I see things differently. I think that's nonsense, because if you go through a political process to get a political position by definition, you are a politician, and you have to go through that process, you have to face certain political realities. There are things that you might want to do good or bad. Well, not bad, but there are things you might want to do and say the opposition wants something different. Not that any of those two things are wrong, but they have a different vision and because they have maybe a lot more political influence than you do, you have to deal with that. That's what the political realities are. That's why you need someone with political experience. Unfortunately, in the country we live in today, most of the people with political experience are not, unfortunately, they haven't served the country well. That's the reality. So we find ourselves out. I don't know whether to call it catch 22 situation where we have, do we want fresh faces with no experience in politics to run things because we think they would do things better or do we want to face the reality because we have a political system and we need to be able to deal with political realities and only someone with political experience can do that. So those are questions we need to answer. All right. Thank you so much, Lolo. Ok, let me bring you back onto this conversation right now. Most often the Nigerians are actually faced with a lot of political gladiators who come out ahead of elections to do their campaign election nearing and they promise all sort of miracles to change the system and to change the economy. But most of the times we find out that at the end of the day, Nigerians, what we see back in Nigeria is that those who are seemingly knowledgeable about the economy and the issues that plague us as a country are not the ones we naturally choose to be our leaders during elections. How do we begin to change this narrative? So I'm one of those people who have always advocated and I think even development economics has been evidenced now that democracy to function effectively from certain ingredients are essential. Education being one of them is very difficult for people to make the right choices on empty stomach. It's very difficult for people to make the right choice without being enlightened. So fundamentally, democracy is built to work on some certain constant kids like education, like people that have been literate and have to be fed to not be able to be indiced by 5000 hours to sell their books. So if you look at it in the way Nigeria is set up and this kind of conversation where I have been, this is not the average conversation Nigerians have. The vast majority of the Nigerian electorate right now do not belong to that level of mental wavelength to be able to have this kind of conversation if the time is right from wrong. It is still going to be demonic bags and people who can appeal to ethnic and religious sentiment who eventually get into it. So that's an output problem. Sometimes the reality of it right now is this is that the reason why I wait to emphasize on system, which education and all of these other things that are important is that even with the bad it is. Look, I used Donald Trump for example, a political system, someone can just write a wave of populism right now for a period of time you occupy public office for the very most eight years. But the system itself right now is built to even check even the most powerful person in that country. So I always emphasize system in terms of the long run of things even if, you know, we can wait a bad person out, you know, but if the system is bad the matter how good the person is, you know, so for me system is fundamental. So once you watch you're putting in right now it's a garbage in garbage out system. The people are do not have the capacity to even hold the people accountable. There is no incentive even not to even take that 5000 but when it did not take there is no what difference they make in their life, you know, so it's it's it's fundamentally flawed, you know, the people to get the right people in office, the people have to have the ability right now to make the right choice. So I hope that answers the question I think you were trying to get at. Yes, you did. Then again, Lulu, at the end of the day, there is this talk of dichotomy, the people who have been there for time immemorial, if I must say, and of course the young Nigerian with the passage of the not too young to run the old and all of that. Let's talk about the dichotomy, for instance, now the the old people in court and of course the young Nigerian. Do you really think that the young people would actually bring the need to change and the panacea that we need to see in the country? Lulu, I directed that to you. Yeah, so I think we need to be I try to be yeah, so I try to be careful when we talk about young people's involvement in politics because I think there's a tendency to believe that just because someone is young, it means he has the right he or she has the right ideas in terms of how to move the country forward. That's not necessarily true. We've had again, unfortunately, we've had some young people in political positions in Nigeria and they've quite frankly been on embarrassment to young people. That's the best way I can put it. So the issue, I think it goes beyond being young. Yeah, being young is good because you tend to look at the world which is a bit different. And fresh ideas, fresh laws as it were and doesn't have another way of thinking. Sorry? There's this talk about fresh people bringing in fresh impact, fresh ideas, fresh innovation and doing things that are not really done the normal business as usual way. Yeah, but the problem is that it's true, technically it's true, but the problem is that young people's mind, it depends on what the mindset is because there are a lot of young people whose aspiration is basically it's our turn as opposed to let's go there and do something different or let's go there and offer something different. So which is why I said it goes beyond just being young. Just being young does not necessarily mean you have great ideas or you have the best ideas that will benefit the country. You can find a 35, 40 year old person running for office whose ideas are not that different from an 80 year old person running for office. So at the end of the day it's that leader, it's about looking at that leader, what are his individual plans, what's his vision for the country and is it something we can bind to? So those are the questions we need to ask of any leader. So and for me it doesn't matter if that question turns out to be young, that's great because I think we need a generational shift but it's for me where Nigeria is right now, I don't think that's the most important thing. I think the most important is to get our vision and correct these systemic issues. All right, we'll leave that discussion at that. I will find more time to discuss the issue of leadership and of course young people, visa, what they are bringing to the table and how we need to see the needed changes in Nigeria but like always time is never our friend. We must say our thank yous to Lalu Elegber, public affairs analyst and Oqbe O'Rinio, our developmental specialist. Many thanks gentlemen for joining us and of course sharing your your deep thoughts with us. We do appreciate it. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. All right, we'll go on a short break now to hear what kind of leaders my adjourns need in 2023 and when we return I'll be giving you my take. Nigeria should be looking forward to a leader that is not sectional. A leader that has the masses at heart. Our program that is mass oriented that can make a lot of youth be employed, be employed, also make the environment investment friendly to that other investors that are going to other countries, other foreign investors will start thinking of coming back to Nigeria to invest because Nigeria is a very friendly country you all know but because of the situation we find ourselves especially in the area of insecurity a lot of investors even local investor that are Nigerians are finding their way out of the space because there is no place to sin anymore. So come 2023 we are looking for a leader like I said that is less sectional that is also people oriented that is investment also oriented that is also selfless. We need like a young youth we're very sharp on everything because Nigeria just discovered like our president now he's a very old man so he's not using more fast and more intelligent anymore again so we need like a youth I'm very sharp so that anything Nigeria youth need should be done fast without no limit. We need a young leader a young leader which is above 37 38 years and we don't need manipulation leader what we need we need a young leader that can take care of this country. We need a vibrant man a young guy that will come up he's not PDP he's not APC we need a new party that will have sympathy you know that democracy is for the people is for the people it's not for his service it's not for serviceness because now they are rooting us with serviceness so we don't need that we don't need all these old people that have been rooting us in Saipon we need young leaders we need people that go out and know what is happening we don't need this this party we need a new party we don't need code for that. People now might take for the issue of integrity all hands must be undecided to fish out the perpetrators of the Dazs act you know the perpetrators of you know the attack on the governor as they constitute a small league of persons trying to harm the corporate existence of our beloved country Nigeria the mantra for every Nigerian at such a challenging time in our history must be how to forge peace and unity across the nations divides into shun violence and wanton destruction and then for leadership ahead 2023 at a time like these when we are sealed by ethnic distrust overwhelmed by social and economic problems aborted by threat of secession we need to focus on leadership because as we can all relate it is the key to thousand detention and redirecting our collective national focus towards development issues in 2023 and we need that person who can reach across social class and political ills to create a national conversation of inclusion a plus politics returns tomorrow my name is Justin Khadogne many thanks for watching bye for now