 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by my friend and former guest on the show, Mr. Chet Falls-Arano. Chet, welcome back on the podcast. It's great to be here. Thanks, Bart. I appreciate it. Yeah, so folks who listened to the podcast last week, this doesn't normally happen this fast, but this week it did. So Lucas van Gretch was just on the show and we were giving you, you know, praising you about your hard work for a lot of different things, but one of which is your Chick Webb book and your studying of the great Chick Webb, who's really kind of a mythical man in the history of drums. And what do you know? I emailed you and it was either now or never because you're going to be going out of town. So we got you on in a matter of days. So yeah, I'm going off to Italy and the internet in Italy is just terrible. So it's good thing we did it before, before otherwise we'd have to wait till I got back to Germany. Yeah, which, you know, we could do, but I always say, why not do it now? Exactly. So I appreciate your quickness. And now people don't have to wait because literally like five, six days ago, people heard about the possibility of an episode. So let's jump in, let's learn about Chick Webb and what made him such a legend and kind of a hero, really. So take it away, my friend. I have to start off with his birth date and that's been argued on several levels. I have his birth date as of 1909. But that's argued. There's also dates of 1905 and there's just various dates. But I go with 1909 because that's what's on his tombstone. And I figure that's got to be pretty correct. But there's a census report that supposedly puts him born at an earlier date. But I don't really hold too much to census reports because they're full of a lot of errors. Even the Census Bureau cites the number of errors that they have. So I go with 1909. He was born in 1909. Shortly thereafter, as an infant, he fell down a flight of steps in front of his house and he crushed some vertebrae. The doctor prescribed him to bang on pots and pans to improve his upper body strength. That obviously turned into something because he became a drummer. He had a paper route as a young boy earned the money to buy a set of drums. And he played in and around the Baltimore area. That's where he was born. It's in Baltimore. Well, that's fascinating right off the bat of a doctor prescribing banging on pots and pans. I mean, it's like a movie. Because he was in bed. He was bedridden. And his mother said, the doctor says he needs to improve his upper body strength. He needs to stay limber and flexible. And his mother said, how are we going to do that? He says, well, every kid loves to bang on pots and pans. Let him drum. So that's how it all started. Yeah. Unbelievable. That's so cool. Good for the history of drums in general. We can thank that doctor. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And then as I said, then he bought a set of drums. He played in and around the Baltimore area. His first gig was with the Jazzola Orchestra on the Steamship Cruises in Chesapeake Bay. And there he formed a relationship with John Truhart, who was the banjo player for the Jazzola Orchestra. And they decided to make a move to the Big Apple. Chick was only 16 years old. And John Truhart was nine years as senior, which is quite a number of years. For a 16-year-old, then to be going with a 25-year-old, that's quite a bit of a difference. So they went to the Big Apple. The two of them located in Harlem in a one-room apartment. And like all budding musicians, they had to prove themselves. And so they did that by going to jam sessions in and around the Harlem area. One of the first clubs that they went to was Smalls Paradise. And performing there was Duke Ellington. And in Duke Ellington's band was Johnny Hodges, which was also Chick'sweb's cousin. So that also helped him, I'm sure, to get a start at Smalls Paradise. Also in Duke Ellington's band was a cello by the name of Bobby Stark. And Bobby Stark was also playing in a band, Edgar Dowell's band in Harlem. And Edgar Dowell was auditioning for a club uptown. And Chick went along with him to that audition. But Edgar Dowell's drummer was stuck on a subway. And so Chick was there with him on the audition. And Bobby Stark said, hey, I've got a drummer here that can do it. Well, Edgar Dowell takes one look at little hunchback Chick. And he says, there's no way I'm putting him on my bandstand. So the club owners said, okay, it's time. And he said, well, can you give me a few more minutes here? My drummer will show up in a few minutes. And he says, well, I have time for bulls***. And he says, no, well, I've got another drummer. He can sit in until my drummer gets here. And he says, well, whatever, you know, go ahead. So ChickWeb starts starts playing. And it just wins over this club owner, because Chick is just doing high sticking and twirling and besides being a very accomplished drummer, because he was like an instant drummer. He proved himself in Baltimore, but then he also proved himself in Harlem. And Duke Ellington was his mentor. And so that was his first gig was the Edgar Dowell band. And it was just a fluke. He just happened to be at the right time in the right place. Well, and so you mentioned, I mean, you did talk about it, but just to kind of like hone in on it a little bit, you mentioned his hunchback and he's kind of, I mean, he had like a handicap. I mean, he was a bit disfigured. And on your outline here, going back a little bit to his earlier days, I just want to touch on how you said in your outline due to his contorted shape friends called him Chick. And that would explain that a little bit more. Well, because because he had crushed vertebrae, his upper body was actually truncated. He was short on the top half of his body. The lower half of his body was normal, but the top half of his body was truncated. And he also kind of moved in kind of a herky-jerky manner. And so his friends, his chums, called him Chick. They nicknamed him as Chick. And that name stuck for the rest of his life, as a matter of fact. And so, yeah, he was physically disabled, but only from a visual standpoint, because he was still able to play extremely well. I mean, his arms were normal, his legs were normal. And so he had to sit high on the set so that he could be seen above this big 28-inch bass drum. And that was the common bass drum of the day. So to be seen above it, he had to sit exceptionally high. And there's rumor of him having an extra pedal, an extra board on his bass drum pedal, so that he would be able to sit up high and be seen above this huge bass drum and still play his fabulous way. I mean, he was just an incredible drummer. Yeah. I mean, I think Lucas in the previous, in last week's Gretsch episode described him as Battle Mad, obviously referring to the drum battles, which we'll get to in a minute, but just in general, the like, I'm gonna do it attitude. Like, nothing's gonna stop me. I mean, he was determined. Nothing stopped this man. I mean, he was just hell bent for leather. It's really incredible that he was able to muster up that kind of courage and stamina. Meanwhile, being ridiculed, you know, even when he was just getting started there in New York, when he was first getting started in Baltimore, I mean, everybody was ridiculing him because of his appearance because he was, you know, they called him, unfortunately, it's a terrible word that they called him a midget. And, you know, that's, you know, well, I mean, how sad is that? Yeah, and it's terrible. But I think nowadays we live in a time where the, any ailment you have, which people can, you know, we live now in a modern time of modern science where you can, and I think people are a little more accepting now and politically correct. But in the mid, you know, my 19 teens or the 1920s, I don't think it was like that, obviously. I think people were mean. I think you would be sent to like stay at a like, like people would send their kids off to like live in like, to asylum, to asylum. Thank you. And so, man, I mean, he had everything against him and clearly he wasn't going to let it hold him down. I mean, he's black. That's the first stride against him. He's got a handicap. No, he's physically not attractive to look at. And so therefore, you know, people didn't want to hire him. Yep. Yep. Until they realize how good he is. And then he starts to win people over with his sheer talent. Not even then. You know, I mean, he wins people over like Duke Ellington, who just recognizes just a God given talent, you know, and promotes him. And in fact, Duke Ellington organized Chick's first job as a band leader. He was playing at the Kentucky Club, Duke Ellington was. He was playing at the Kentucky Club and the Black Bottom needed a band. And so Duke Ellington said to him, I've got a great band. And he said, I'll talk Chick into doing it. Chick did not want anything to do with it. He just wanted to play his drums. He did not want to be a band leader. But Bobby Stark and his cousin Johnny Hodges talked him into it. And so he formed the band, the Harlem Stompers. And they played their first gig was at the Black Bottom. What does that entail to be a band leader as a drummer? Like, what would that, would that be choosing like writing out the charts, getting things set up? What would his job be as a drummer band leader? Well, that's what he didn't feel very confident in doing. And that's why he was happy to have John Truhar as his sidekick, because John Truhar was able to cover all those bases, to do arrangements, to do charts, to, you know, to organize the members of the band. And so, you know, he really didn't have the qualifications. That's why he didn't want to do it. He just wanted to play his drums. But Ellington talked him into doing it. And fortunately, he went with it because, you know, he became quite a band leader then. Yeah. I mean, when you think about it, I mean, looking at articles, which we'll get to, you know, a little bit down the road on the timeline. I mean, he was a band leader, he was known as a band leader, he was famous for it. So he, he really, again, he kind of like excelled at every challenge that was put in front of him. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Then the next gig he had was was at the Paddock Club. But unfortunately, that that club went up in flames. I don't know if it was an insurance thing or what, but the club burned down. And so then Chick then took his band to the Savoy. And there he formed a bond with Mo Gale, who was the owner of the Savoy, and with Charles Buchanan, who was the manager of the Savoy. And it was there that he really did, he really took off because he was scheduled Buchanan, scheduled him with the first band battle. You talked about his band battles. His first band battle was with King Oliver and Fletcher Henderson. And he, both of those were well established, especially King Oliver, were well established bands. And he, in the battle, he beat both of them. So, you know, he, I mean, this guy is just oozing with talent. You know, he's just incredible. Now, what constitutes a battle? Would it be drummer versus drummer? Or is it like, is it like a clappo meter, where who gets the loudest cheer from the audience? Exactly. It's at the end of the evening, the audience decides via an audience meter who won the battle. And, you know, it was, it was just, it was a pairing off process. And first he beat Fletcher Henderson. And then the next battle, then he had to go up against King Oliver. And, you know, the audience gave him the victory. Then the next thing, the next big thing that happened to him was he was, he was used in a Paramount, Lasky pictures after Sieben. It's a terrible minstrel show. And it's really kind of sad to see him perform in that. But, you know, hey, if you're working your way up to the top, you take, you take what you can get, you know? So, yeah, that's, that's the first one. And the second one was, was a very short clip of him at the Savoy. And it was just a silent clip. And I ended up putting it up on, on YouTube. I started off with this, with this after Sieben. And then I segued into a short clip of, of, of him, silent film, but I put it to music of him, of his, of his orchestra. Yeah. You know, and we're judging it by today's standards, you know, back then, you know, minstrel shows were commonplace. And if you look at the musicians in his band in the Harlem Stompers, if you look at the expressions on their faces, they do not look very happy doing this. But yeah, you know, a gig is a gig, you know? I mean, it's, yeah, all we can do is kind of shrug and go, I guess it is, you know, we, we can learn from the mistakes of people in the past and move forward. But so on the timeline here, which getting I was about to ask, what about some drums that he's playing? But it looks like we were now getting to a point where he's getting his first endorsement with leading. His first endorsement is with Leedy. Yeah. And actually, it didn't get much of an endorsement. He's in one of the Leedy topics. There's a very short article of him. But, you know, he's not promoted very well within Leedy. The next endorsement was with Frank Wolf drums. And again, the catalogs don't really give him his due. But that set is the iconic set that has that caricature on the bass drum. Yeah. And that was that was a result of a guy by the name of Boy Ten Hove, who was a cartoonist. And he he did all the old jazz greats, Artie Shaw, Duke Ellington, Louis Armstrong. He has all these caricatures. And Chick liked his caricature so much that he had it put on the front of his bass drum. Yeah. Yeah. Which is what you think of when you when you think of Chick Webb is this it's it's your classic like, you know, carnival or whatever caricature where everyone's got a big huge chin and huge accented, you know, features on their face. But boy, it's it is good. And it's it's he he sells himself really well, like his face. And he's always smiling. Obviously, he's he means business. We know that it's not all just smiles and happiness, but like he he's putting himself there. And the picture on the bass drum, he's got a crown on. So he knows that he's he's calling himself the king. But he's he's really he knows how to sell himself. He does. You're right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The next big thing then to happen to him is his Ella Fitzgerald. Mo Gale had told him that he really needed a singer. He had Charlie Linton as a singer. But Charlie Linton, if you listen to any of his recordings, he's not a very strong singer. And so he was he was searching for a singer. And his his frontman, Bardu Eli, went to the Apollo amateur night. And he discovered Ella Fitzgerald. And he brought Ella to Chick. And Chick then brought Ella to Mo Gale. And and Mo Gale said no way, because Ella, not that she was horrible looking, but but she was she was a street person. She was a street urchin. She was a wave. And so, you know, when they brought her in, she had she had army boots on and, you know, an old tattered dress. And so you can imagine bringing her into Mo Gale's office. Mo Gale said no way. And Chick Webb said, no, you got to don't look at her, listen to her. Yeah. And he did. And she was hired. Wow. Instantly. I mean, Chick knows that battle of like, don't look at her, listen to her. That's the story of his life, really. And that's his story, too. You know, I mean, don't don't look, listen. Yeah, exactly. You know, it's the same thing. Yeah. Now, duality there. Before we move on here, I want to ask you the question about we have on your timeline, Gladstone Symbol Association. Well, it's a hand sock symbol. And Billy developed that that he developed that with the with the Lady Corporation. And that's where the association started was was when Chick Webb was endorsed by Lady, he took a liking to these hand sock symbols. And if you go on YouTube and pull up dog bottom is the name of the piece, he's actually playing them on on. And that's the only question that's on on the cut is is these are these sock symbols. They're just handheld symbols that that you can also play on. And it was the beginnings of the hi-hat. There wasn't a hi-hat back in those days. And so they had low boys and these hand sock symbols. Yeah. Would he then keep that like, I'm trying to think of the ease of picking it up and playing and switching. Would he keep that on like his trap table in front of him, basically on kind of on the top of his bass drum and grab it when he needed it and play it? Yeah, yeah. But I don't think he played it all that much. I think there's only like two, two cuts that I've found on YouTube where he actually, where he actually plays them. Yeah. Got it. Got it. I should say, I should have said this at the beginning. Chet is also an expert on Billy Gladstone. So his previous episode is all about Billy Gladstone. So I recommend people checking that one out as well, which kind of dovetails nicely. This is both of your your passions coming together. Welcome locations. Yeah, exactly. That and Gresh. All three of them. Gresh, Gladstone, and Chikweb. Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot of Gretch recently. I was saying before that I hadn't done a lot of Gretch episodes for a long time, but now we're going hard with Gretch in the last couple of weeks, which is great. That's a good thing. Yeah. Carry on here. I think we're moving on to the Apollo Theater. Ella Fitzgerald shows up for the audition night for this talent show, and she shows up wanting to be a dancer. But unfortunately, a pair of dancers called the Edward sisters had appeared as the final act. And so the next thing that occurs is this talent show. Well, Ella says there's no way I'm going to go out there and dance when the Edward sisters, who were very famous dancers in Harlem, had just appeared. She says, there's no way I want to sing. And so, you know, the stage manager says kind of she kind of make rules up as you go here, don't you? And she says, yeah. And so she sings and he says, well, what do you want to sing? And she ends up singing the object of my affection and Judy. And as I said, Bardo Eli was there that night. He heard it. And the rest is history. He brought her then to Chick Webb. Chick Webb brought her to Mogail. Mogail said, no, initially. But then when he heard her saying he's done, you know, he said hire her. But then she needed a lot of care and upbringing because, as I said, she was a street urchin. And so it was Chick Webb's wife that helped Chick to bring her along and to groom her. Yeah. Now, Chick Webb, you said he was married on his personal life. Any info on his wife and meeting her? Was she a musician as well? She was a hostess at the Savoy. And not really that much is known about her. Her name is Sally. Not really that much is known about her. Okay. Just to know that he's married, it kind of, I don't know, that's interesting to know personal stuff like that about someone. Because I think Chick Webb, there is information known and there's your great book, which you're referring to and we'll kind of plug more at the end. But it's really, he again is one of those people where he's just referred to and I think people who don't really dig deep into the history of this stuff, which now they don't need to because you're telling everyone about this stuff. But it fills in the picture of Chick a little bit more than just a, because I think a lot of people don't even know that he suffered that fall down the stairs and he had this back issue. I mean, unless you are kind of told that, you just might think that's an interesting looking guy or some, because you pictures usually see him behind the drum kit. So it's good to fill it out a little bit more. And maybe we check in too. What year is this when we're at the Apollo Theater and the talent show and all that stuff? It's the early 30s. Okay. Gotcha. Great depression is sort of underway, I guess at that point. In full swing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So carry on from there. Next big thing to happen then is Ella and a guy by the name of Van Alexander, who is one of Chick's arrangers, wrote a Tisket, a Tasket. When Chick tried to record it, the execs told him, the record execs told him, there's no way you're not going to do a nursery rhyme. It just won't sell. And Chick said, well, either we do it or I don't record. And so he stood his ground. And fortunately he did because when he recorded it, and it was just an instantaneous hit and was number one for 19 weeks on the record charts. Yeah. It's so interesting how wrong record executives and stuff can be, because I guess they're trying to stay with a formula, but the formula has to change. The way it goes is it's no, we do it this way. Then a Tisket, a Tasket comes out or something like that that you never think would be successful and people love it because they haven't heard anything like it, you know? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And he's pulling some weight, man. If he can make threats, not really a threat, but you know what I mean, kind of, I'm not going to do it then. So he's clearly successful and he's pulling some weight. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Lowboy Beaters. You may be asking yourself, what's wrong with stock beaters? The answer to that is nothing is wrong with them, but pedal manufacturers know they're going to sell pedals to drummers of all genres. So the stock beater has to at least be functional for everything from metal to folk and jazz. But to sound your best, you need a beater that is specifically built for your style of music. If you play punk or metal, you're going to want a wood striking surface. Hip hop or country calls for leather. If you're playing blues, you probably want a felt beater. And the Lowboy Puff Daddy with a lambswool striking surface is great for jazz and Americana tunes. That's why so many of today's top drummers are playing Lowboy. People like Steve Farone, who've played with Eric Clapton, Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, and who toured earlier this year with John Mayer. Lester Estelle Jr. from Kelly Clarkson's band is an artist, as is Rashid Williams, who tours with John Legend. I'm a big fan of Lowboy Beaters. I think they're awesome. And I think you guys will like them too, if you haven't checked it out yet. Lowboy is offering 15% off for drum history fans, so you can go to LowboyBeaters.com, use code DRUMHISTORY and get 15% off anything on the website. Again, that's LowboyBeaters.com, code DRUMHISTORY, and you get 15% off his entire site. Was Steve financially doing really well at this point? Is that known? I mean... No. No. I mean, he was doing okay, but he wasn't setting the world on fire. Because this now is moving towards the later 30s, and he's performing at the Paramount Theater. That's where the Tisca de Tascant was initially performed and did really well, and then it just went wildfire all across the country. Interesting. Were recordings like that typically done in a live situation, where the recording of a Tisca de Tascant would be recorded live on a theater and then released, or would they go in studio? I mean... No, it would be in studio. Yeah. Okay. Cool. Cool. And that's neat to think of those old days of the recordings, and I'm sure it's all one take. Let's just get it all right together and... One take, and interestingly, started with a bell. That's how they started a recording. They rang a bell, which is kind of odd. I know. Isn't that sound crazy? Yeah, because you think that is literally the most sharp ringing... Turn on a light. You know what I mean? Flip the light switch or whatever, but a bell. Exactly. Wow. But a bell. Yeah. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. I've never heard of that. When I found that out, I thought that was kind of crazy. They would obviously wait for it to dissipate and... Exactly. Yeah. Okay. That's bizarre. And you know, they did a wax recording. I mean, they were recorded on wax, and then duplicates were made from that wax recording. Sure. So they would pick it up from where the music actually starts. Yeah. Yeah. Early editing, early trimming, but still what a... It's things like that where until someone comes along and says, yeah, we're not doing that anymore. You kind of just... They just keep doing it and doing it. Why are we ringing a bell? Can't we turn on the light? Isn't that an easier way to cue? Or just say, we're recording. Exactly. That's funny. So Chick is... So he's like in his 20s at this point. So he's a grown man doing this, working as a musician, again, beating all the odds against him. So he's doing a great job in his life. I mean, that's for sure. Obviously, I think you said he wasn't being compensated maybe fairly as you would be today, but he's making a living, which is good. He's successful. But the odds are catching up with him because with each performance, his health is deteriorating very rapidly at this point. And in fact, at the Paramount Theater, he had to be carried off stage because he was bleeding profusely. He was just in terrible health. He was just really in horrible health at this point. It's really kind of sad. It is. I mean, obviously, it's the 1930s. It's not the most medically advanced time in history. Well, and he was also quite, I ended up in about not going to the hospital. In fact, he was quoted on several occasions, you go in and you don't come out. I mean, he did not want to go into the hospital. He had a bad experience at hospitals as a child. And so he really didn't take care of himself. And it's really sad. It is sad. That makes me think of, I think Bob Marley had something similar and I don't want to get that wrong, but I believe he had like a cut on his toe or something like that. And he would never get it checked out, would not go to the doctor. And I hope I'm not getting this wrong. But I think that turned into something extremely serious, which something small that could have been fixed, but then it just progressed and progressed. But Chick had something very serious from the beginning, which was kind of his, the albatross around his neck, his whole life. But it's interesting. You wonder what would have happened if he would have gotten checked out. He may have been right though. He may have said, nope, you're staying here. We're going to put you in a bed and you're done. Well, but actually, Mogao insisted that he go to the hospital and he went to the hospital. And the doctor determined that there was a fluid build up in his back. And he, they drained the fluid from his back and it made it even worse. So, you know, this poor guy is just, you know, one bad luck after another. Yeah. But so he's in very bad health, but he's still battling, correct? The battles are still going on, still battling, still performing, you know, being carried off the stage at the end of the night, but he's still performing. And this is really kind of amazing. Now, this is like I said, this timeframe is very condensed. This is now the late 30s. And this is when he does battle with Benny Goodman. And that was in 1938. I mean, he died in 1939. So the year before, he's doing battle with Benny Goodman. And this is a whole new subject to talk about here is a Goodman web battle. And there's been much, much said about it. And, you know, inevitably, the stories tend to grow. Obviously, Krupa was playing with Goodman at the time. And there's been many places where you'll see where Krupa says that he was never cut by a better man. And I really, I'm really not so sure about that. I really kind of feel like it was Krupa's self-effacing demeanor. He, I think he was, he gave Chick a lot of credit. I do believe that the web band cut Goodman. But then again, they were performing at the Savoy, which is Harlem. And although it was a mixed audience, it was predominantly black. There's a video of Norma Miller and Frankie Manning. And they talk about how Chick routed the Goodman band. And I don't think he actually routed. He may have defeated them at the Savoy, naturally, because, you know, that's his home turf. Home court advantage. Yeah. Exactly. Home court advantage, exactly. So I think a lot of times a lot is made of that battle. It's actually more than it should, that's actually due. Yeah. And I think actually it's interesting that you, of all people, are saying that because it just proves that you've got a good perspective on everything, because you clearly love Chick web. But I think you understand that something may have been, you know, he, he, it might have been, again, the home court advantage. He might not have been, it might not have been that big of a upset that history lets on. So I'm glad to hear that you're kind of being a little realistic about, it might not have been so much of a blowout, as people say. Again, because you're the Chick man, but you're also realistic, which I think is good. Yeah. If anybody's going to give Chick the advantage, it would be me. But I can't, I can't really believe that he, that he cut Krupa, you know, maybe Krupa, like I said, he was a very self-effacing person. Yeah. And he was just a really nice guy, unlike Buddy Rich, you know, who was kind of an a-hole. Yeah, like would not, like a bulldog, like wouldn't back down against it. Exactly, exactly. In that situation, Jean would be the gentleman to go, especially because the guy's clearly in poor health, if he passed away the next year, it's like, let him have it. You know what I mean? Be the bigger man, not that he really, we're just, we're guessing now, but not that he was like, you know, through the match or whatever, but No, no, by any means. I'm sure, I'm sure he played his ass off. And I'm sure, I'm sure the crowd was just going crazy for Chick and going crazy for Benny Goodman too. I mean, Benny Gibbon was the king of swing. I mean, he was the top guy in the country. I may be wrong. And there are people who I know will say that I'm wrong and say that, you know, that he cut Krupa, but I just can't believe that because, you know, Krupa was just a monster player. Yeah. And so, you know, and no, Chick was as well. Yes. Yeah. As I said, when we were talking before we started this, I'd like for you to play the cut Liza. You'll hear Chick Webb play. I mean, this is like weeks before he died. And you will not believe the tempo that he plays Liza. It's just incredible. It's a live broadcast from 1938. That's one of the few broadcasts that was recorded live. It's just phenomenal what he plays. Also, I should bring up that this was also the time that Chick got involved with the Gretch Company. He's on the 1939 catalog, the 1941 catalog. He's gone because he's dead. Geez. I know. Isn't that sad? He was just coming to his own when, I mean. What a story. Those other endorsers he had, like Lidi, you said he wasn't featured too much, which you can't blame Lidi. He was a younger guy. I mean, even nowadays. Yeah, exactly. A new word drummer wouldn't be on the cover of the magazine. I mean, they wouldn't do that. But Gretch, as we learned from Lucas in the previous episode, big deal. I mean, it's a big deal company. So was this more of, as far as we know, a real endorsement? Definitely. He's on the cover of this 1938 catalog. And I think a lot of it had to do also with Billy Gladstone. I'm sure they must have had a relationship that stemmed way back when Gladstone was doing his symbols with the Lidi Corporation. So there's like 10 years in the making there of a relationship. Yeah. And on this Gretch cover that you're referring to, I mean, he just exudes like, he's cover material. He's got the look. He's doing the big, like nowadays, I think of it as like, oh, that's a great thumbnail to put on YouTube or something, like the little photo that makes people click it. It makes you want to read. I mean, he's got, he's just got the style and he's such a big, huge smile on his face, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Well, that's a shame. So he got some good gear. Do you know any details of the endorsement? Was he just, here's a new drum set or how did that work? Yeah. He had that iconic set with the chicks that go around the perimeter of the drum. It's on all four drums, the snare, the tom-tom, the floor tom and the bass drum. Yep. And again, for the folks who are listening, it is literally, when we're saying chick, I mean, it is a baby chicken, a chick with his logo. And it would be green, correct? Green. It was a white pearl drum with little green chicks going around the center. And I credit John Cohen with that. He was the one that, he's another historian, John was the one that told me that they were actually green. The little chicks were green because they're all black and white photos. So how do you know what color was? But somehow he was able to find out that they were green chicks going around the drum. Which is fascinating. I mean, and that's a pretty tall order. I mean, I think if I called Gretch today and I said, listen, I want a white marine pearl drum set with green little chicks around it. I mean, that's a serious custom order, you know? Yeah. Like to get that inlay. I mean, he must have pulled some weight to get such a drum set like that. Exactly. Exactly. But, you know, he was top guy. I mean, he had this fabulous Tisget at Tasket and he was just, his recordings, he was just a plethora of recordings at that time. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So I mean, we are, we're getting close to his death, right? I mean, we're very close to it. So what happened, you know, from where we were with the battle with Benny Goodman and all that stuff, what happens from there till the end? Well, he was playing a cruise and he was having substitute drummers pitch hitting form on many occasions. They would have to bring in other drummers to cover for him. And he was playing a cruise and he just could go on no further. And he went to Baltimore and he was dead within a matter of days. What was the official, was it just due to his ailment that he was, he's had his whole life? Yeah. Well, it was the tuberculosis of the spine, but it was complications of that. I see. Yeah. Wow. Terrible. I mean, but again, it's terrible, but talk about an amazing life for such a short time. So he was in his 30s, right? I mean, he would have been, how old was he when he died? He died at age 30. Wow. Another one of those, I mean, he's up there with John Bonham, Keith Moon, you get these famous drummers who just died when they're super young. Those were different situations. This was a serious, I mean, tuberculosis of the spine is a different, he wasn't a party, you know, partying hard and stuff. No, no, no. In fact, I think he led a very, very clean life. Which maybe that helped with his longevity that he did have. All right. Well, that's just wild. So I see in some photos that you sent me, there is a, what looks like there's someone, Judith, I believe, was her name working on a Chick Web drum set. Explain the gear, what I'm looking at here. Okay. What you're looking at there is I found a Gretch Gladstone that was painted black. And I didn't know what to do with this drum. I had no idea what to do with it. And I thought, hey, why not make a Chick, a commemorative drum, a commemorative Chick Web snare drum, right? So I got the white pearl and the green sparkle. And I got those from Brooks Tegeler, who's another historian. I'm okay at covering a drum, but cutting out these little chicks, my wife is the artist. And I said, would you do that? And so she cut out all the little chicks to paste on this drum, this snare drum. And then shortly thereafter, I was looking at eBay and I saw the Gooseneck cymbal arm set with the bass drum and the rolling console and the trap table. And so I bid and I got the thing. And I thought, well, why not make, I didn't want, I didn't want to try and recreate the Gretch Gladstone set because I just didn't want to do that. I wanted the set that has the caricature on the bass drum. And that's a Frank Wolf set. So what I did was create a Frank Wolf set. But again, I needed the front head to be painted. Judith is the artist. She painted the front head. Yeah, it looks incredible. I mean, she did a great job, which again, check, I'll put up the photos on the page for this on my website. It'll be on the video so folks can kind of click around and find that. But boy, she did an amazing job on that. Yeah, it's really amazing. And I will say that you, I think it's something to be proud of here. If this is what you paid for that drum set, that's a pretty good deal. It says like 700 bucks for that, that Premier Olympic drum kit pre-war. That's a good deal. That was an incredible deal. I was on pins and needles. I was holding my breath that this thing didn't get bid up, right? Because you know how those things can go, they can just get bid to some astronomical levels. Very quickly. I'm sure you were refresh, checking. Yeah, exactly. Because I had my limit and it wasn't much more than what I had put down there. Yeah, yeah. I mean, really as a fun thing that's kind of an homage to one of your heroes, you don't want to pay $10,000 for nothing you would for something like that. But it was meant to be. I mean, that's just awesome. And then you got that Gretch Gladstone snare drum. It looks like at Guitar Center. Guitar Center. Boy, did they know what they had? Or was this, was that a good deal as well? Yeah, it was a pretty good deal. I ended up paying 900 bucks for that and that was a steal. Yeah, yeah. Okay. You got to know what you're looking for, which you clearly do from doing this because I'm sure people walk around. And I love a lot too. Yeah, in your opinion, why has he become such a mythical man? I feel like I know the answer, but just don't want to hear kind of the experts say it because he really is up there with the legends of drummers, Gene Krupa, Buddy Rich. But we have so few, like Gene and Buddy were so much more documented, you know, why do you think Chick is the legend that he is today? Only 30 years old. 30 years old and look what he accomplished. I mean, he accomplished in 30 years what takes everyone else a lifetime. Yeah. He was able to do it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Besides being an incredible drummer. I mean, you know, Buddy Rich calls him the granddaddy of them all. Buddy Rich thought he was just the best. Yeah. And there's something about when people die young, it puts them in a legendary status without a doubt. Exactly. No denying that. Especially when they've been associated with people like Ella Fitzgerald, who, you know, then lived on for many, many, many years and had a glorious career. But you know, when Chick died, she was number one in the melody maker's poll for a female singer. She was number one beating Billie Holiday. Chick dies and she goes to number 17. Interesting. What do you think that is? Why do you think that is? Because she didn't have him to nurture her along. You know, later on, then she hooked up with Norman Gantz and her career just took off. She's just incredible. And you know, I've had people say, well, she was such a great singer. She would have made it anyway. Well, not necessarily true. This was during the Depression, you know, and there were, I'm sure there were lots of great singers during the Depression that, you know, never saw the light of day. Yeah. I think there's something too about musicians where it's not a male-female thing. It's not a black-white thing where certain musicians need other musicians and they need someone else to kind of help build them up and push them forward. And if they don't have that, they don't do as well or they don't do anything. Like they need a bit of a push behind them. And I think that's true today. We all have friends as musicians who, you know, you play in a band with a buddy and then the band, you guys kind of stop playing together, you move on to other musicians. That friend just never plays music again. We all had that happen. So I think on that note, that is the most true thing I think that we can say about him is he is an inspirational story. 100%. 100%. It's 1,000%. Yeah. Yeah. Just to, it's like, okay, if you have a little bit of, I mean, everyone, the drums are not kind to our bodies. Let's be real. It hurts your back, your wrists might hurt. But I mean, if Chick can do it and he's in the night, in the Great Depression, with everything against him. Everything against him. Yeah. You can make it work. And shame on you for whining, right? I mean, look what this guy was able to do. I mean, shame on you for whining about, oh, I didn't get paid enough or I didn't get this or I didn't get that. Come on. Are you kidding? It's a kick in the pants. Look at Chick. Yeah, exactly. So, Chet, this is just awesome. So do you want to tell people if they want to learn more? Because obviously, this is a pretty quick overall look at his life. But about your book, tell us about your book a little bit, which people can get and, you know, more information about that masterpiece right there. Well, I don't know that it's a masterpiece, but it's something that, again, you did help me a lot with this book as well. What's the best place for people to find the Chick web book? Amazon. Amazon. Yeah, that's usually, I ask because sometimes, like, you know, if I can direct people to their website or wherever to kind of cut out the middle man, but let's be real, Amazon is probably the best place to get most stuff. Yeah. Awesome. Well, Chet is kind enough to stick around and do a Patreon bonus episode today. And we're going to talk about the process of researching a drummer, such as Chick web, where there might not be so much information, but he had an experience with Van Alexander who we talked about before, where he got to meet him and learn from him. And he was 99 years old. So I'm excited to learn about that. So if you want to hear that short little bonus episode, you can go to drumhistorypodcast.com, Patreon link, and you get this and then a bunch of other bonus episodes from people like Chet, which I'm excited to hear about. So Chet, my friend, I am so happy to have gotten you on in such a quick amount of time. I mean, this was like a two day turnaround. My pleasure. I'm glad we were able to do it. Exactly. Where I was going to say Lucas, he and I talked for like two years before getting him on the podcast. So you were the opposite. But thanks again to Lucas for really kind of, it happened in real time. He said you got to get, we were talking, it was like, you know, Chet is the man for Chick Web. And it's like, well, I'll do an episode with him. And here we are. It's done. Here we are. It's done. Awesome. Chet, well, thank you so much for being here. And I appreciate you sharing your knowledge.