 Hello everybody. If it's Wednesday and Christmas Eve Eve, then it must be Warhammer. Joining me as always is my very festive co-host, Tom. Tom, who else is joining us there today? This is Mr. Beast. Say hi, Mr. Beast. Do you want to explain Mr. Beast? He is my, he is our family's newest addition. Hey, buddy. I'm going to look at the camera and say hi. Yeah. He looks very excited about all this. He's tired. I will come up. This is, this was a gift for your children for Christmas. This is what delays are all about, folks. This is what, this is what makes delays. Absolutely. This was a gift for your children for Christmas, correct? It's the addition of a family member. Let's say that. Yes. Sure, sure. Absolutely. I'm sure that it's your dog as much as it's anyone else's dog. Yes. Yeah. I mean, let's be honest. When I go somewhere, he follows me around the house. Oh, that's good. That's good. If you can get him to go outside, then you'll really be in a good situation. I mean, he's doing pretty well. He's like, again, he's eight weeks. So there's no, like, he's not fully, he's not fully housebroken, but we're getting there. All right. Well, good luck. Good luck. Yeah. So this is our Christmas special. Tonight, we're going to be talking about naughty war scrolls. We'd like to make nice. That's the idea of the thing. So we're going to look at some of the worst scrolls in AOS. Oh, do you? Okay. So, yes. Clearly, my wife was watching and wanted to, and felt left out. What do you feel left out? Yes, our dogs, our dogs were not meeting acknowledged. Okay. Yes, they're all adorable. Okay. Yes. Hi. Yes. These are my dogs. Okay. Very good. I knew as soon as I heard footsteps down the stairs that this was the impetus for this. All right. You're very good dogs. Okay. Okay. That's my dog. Hi. Okay. Thank you. All right. Okay. Good start to a show. There you go. All right. At any rate. So that's what we're going to talk about tonight after that chaos. Dogs. Dogos. If you like dogs, why not hit the like button right now? Just that way, even if you leave because of the chaos, you're like, I like dogs. Hit the like button. See, hit like for dogs. If you don't hit like, then you don't like adorable dogs and puppies. That's what I'll say. So at any rate, very excited about tonight's show. We're going to get into that. Yes, dear. I'm good. No, we're fine. Sure. We're okay. Okay. Thank you, dear. All right. But anyways, as always, let's start with the news. So rumor engine. Yeah. So there was lots of rumor engines obviously still and I'm not going to pull them all up. Most of them were super boring. But this one was the interesting one. I pulled this was from day 19. So this was in between last week show and this show. And I pulled this one because it so clearly seems to be the same model, right? Like this looks like the left and right arm of the same model. Obviously we looked at hammer guy last week and some people, you know, like I had said, you know, maybe Lord of the Rings model or whatever, because it's just on a dorm hammer. Like I don't remember who called what doesn't matter. But the then we got this other side of it with this big embellished rifle. And I was like, Oh, suddenly I am way more interested. Now you have my attention. Absolutely. The hammer and glove just simply looked like, like a middle arch model. That's what I had called. But when you throw in that that that pistol ish rifle, which is clearly like the aesthetic that we've seen on like the witch hunter ask, like, I mean, it's it's it's a pump action shotgun. Like you can clearly see where he can like boom, you know, yes, yes. Or a pump action rifle, I should say. So I think that these are probably more likely AOS and now and in fact, I might even go as far as to say that these could be our order of easier witch like vampire hunters. Yeah, man, 100%. That's what I'm behind. Like, look, if we if you get vampires, as we said, this was Clint's call, right, was that it's a vampire hunter or whatever last week. And you know, as we joked last week, when you get vampires, you get vampire hunters like right behind. Okay. So either this is like a new witch hunter vampire hunter, whatever concept for word request, or just for the main line. Thank you. Yes, lever action. Yes, you can see where you can actually like, yeah, that's the name of that where you can like, you know, yeah, whatever. Yeah, you shoot it. Thank you. Lever action is apparently the correct term. So thank you to everybody said it, but good. Yeah, yeah, that's fine. So I don't know gun terminology, but I'm glad to glad to see we've got people who do. So to me, like the witch hunter was a classically iconic model that a lot of people loved the order of easier stuff we've talked about for years as being such an easy slam dunk of a release. But they haven't really go ahead. I just didn't understand why they hadn't done it. Now I know why they needed something for them to fight. Right, exactly. Yeah, yeah, there's no reason. As usual, they like to see the the correct narrative reason to introduce sort of an army, right? Like why is a thing happening. And but the, but you know, like this gives them the proper enemy. Once the vampires and those things show up, boom, then all of a sudden the witch hunters can come out. Beyond excited. That feels exactly like what this is. I will be so disappointed if this is a 40k model, like so disappointed. I don't know how it could be with that hammer. But if it is, yeah, my God, I would be so sad if it was like some adeptus mechanic is thing or a or a witch hunter and quiz it or something in 40k. I would I would we riot. That's the answer. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, cool. That's the one I wanted to talk about because I thought this one would be the most interesting stuff. The other ones were just like cloaks and crowns and things that were a bunch of hot and nothing. Right. So whatever. It's fine. Totally. All right, next up next news item. We got a really interesting like teaser announcement news confirmation thing, which basically said, Hey, delays in Q1 are delayed. Like our releases in Q1 are delayed. But but here are the books for 40k for the next three months. And oh, by the way, here's a preview army that's going to drop in two days on Christmas Day. And here's a very obviously hooked shaped question mark. Okay. So you're wrong, but that's okay. Yeah, I mean, let's let's talk about the downside of this first. Like so for those who haven't been paying attention to and like look, even I have only been paying some attention. Like I don't live in the UK, obviously. But even I know from a distance that the trade negotiations between the UK and the rest of Europe, the EU have not been going, I think as swimmingly as some people would have hoped the grand chancellor has been causing problems. Sure. I absolutely yes. There's some kind of blockade around Naboo. I'm not sure. I might have been watching the news in between the prequels or something. I'm not sure what was what. But you know, like I saw a 20 mile backed up line of trucks from the Dover port or whatever, which is not a great day. I would imagine for those truckers, I could only think about how terrible that is. But anyways, between that and obviously the ongoing pressure COVID, they said, okay, look, we got to slow this down. So they are moving to an every other week release announcement schedule, which is funny how sad I was about that. Like on one side, it's good, I suppose, because like you can get some more breathing room. But on the other side, I become so used to the cadence of like every week of like every something exciting to like hot news injection. It's like a slot machine every week. It like lots of weeks is going to be stuff I don't care about. It's going to be Black Library novels and crap for 40 K. I'm not interested in or whatever, right? But at the same time, like this could be the week, right? Like this, you know, like it could be anything, it could be a boat. And now it's going to be every other week. Now it's only for the first quarter, as of right now. Right. Right. So there's, you know, like we'll see how long it goes on. They did say yes, for 40 K, there will be at least a battle tone thing every month with Death Guard in January, like that we already know death guard, because death guard was supposed to supposed to originally release now, like we should have death guard hands right now. Yep. And yes, we're getting the A and most importantly, then the AOS army will launch basically in early February, February. And A AOS army that hasn't been previewed yet with the battle tone. They did not say that has not been previewed yet. Do you really think it's Lanesh? Yes, that's exactly what it is. It's just the Lanesh army guys. Like I know we all are excited. That's not when you're getting vampires. That doesn't mean the vampires aren't coming. They are. Okay. I have full faith and confidence in vampires arriving. It's not the vampire army being announced to come out in February. Guys, hey, hey team, there's a whole series of 10 models that they've spoiled like eight of that ain't coming in a broken realms thing. Okay. There's I mean, I know it's getting a battle tone and most of that army has been seen. So what do you think the next battle tone is? Like this is the least mysterious mystery in history. But but do you think that we're not going to get slowness in January and then that whatever this thing is in February? No, I think that like that. So the exact quote is for Warhammer Age of Sigmar fans, you will see the next new battle tone begin parins and a bunch of incredible minis close parins drop in February, meaning that is the next time a battle tone and its associated new minis will drop, right? Okay. Trust us, this one's a doozy will even give you a sneak peek of it on Christmas day. So I guess so. It's the Lanesh. Well, that's super disappointing then not getting that for my birthday army. Look, vampires will come but like we're not getting the vampire warband until March and those generally run ahead of the army releases. Yeah. So like the vampires are coming will get our vampire army. It'll be like May. That's when that's going to happen. Unless the delay pushes it to like August. No, I'm counting the delay saying it to May because I'm originally guessing they would have been a month behind it now. They'll be two weeks behind. Yeah. Or two months behind. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. So basically there's no AOS per se in January. Like we'll get previews and stuff like we'll get the articles and things like that of releasing up to slanesh because slanesh should have been January, obviously, because we know that the coin is there, right? The heat nights of slanesh coin, the coins that have been matched to the book, you know, sort of releases those kinds of things. And the new army releases. So that's what it is. Okay. So I like I couldn't believe how by the way, I love how popular I saw like polls going up on the Facebook groups and like the Empire was winning. And I'm like, guys, it's just slanesh. Like, look, I hope to be wrong. Like it'd be awesome if I was red and like we were getting all of slanesh and vampires and like back to back in a two month period. But think about how insane that sounds. We are a hype machine. Look, the hype is up to 11. There's going to be a riot if we don't get vampires. Oh my gosh, like it's on Reddit now. Like it's everywhere. Like it vampires has bled into like like it's on the face the various Facebook groups people are like repping it. It's it's because it's real. It's happening. It's just not happening next. So like it's okay. It's coming. We're gonna get there. Yes, that is Wonder Woman on Tom Santa hat. That is correct. It was that it was that are Paw Patrol and I went with Wonder Woman. That's a good choice. You made the right choice. So yes, my my my first airing of the grievances for the night is all this like it's going to be vampires. Yay, vampires. I'm like, whoa, slow down, guys. There's a whole nother army that they've said is coming next that has an associated coin that we've seen half the models for that has no, you know, that like obviously has a book. Yeah, the next thing. Yeah, just I'll be I'll try to be excited for Slemish. Look, once we get a once we get a little glancy glance at that Palinquin or whatever, which is what I'm hoping for as the as the Christmas Day reveal, like show me show me the centerpiece model and the book and go, that's right. We rewrote Slemish, we detoxified it. It's still about heroes, but it's not going to be horrible. And you're gonna have some fun units to play with as well. Wonderful. Great. Wait, what army is next? It's it's Slemish. That's Kevin Hamilton. That it's the nation. Anyway, that's what we all want to see. Just reveal the rest of the army. I'm excited. We're all excited. It's going to be excessive fun. I can't wait. How excited am I about Slemish? I am excited about Slemish. Okay. And and we'll go from there. I'm kind of excited. So anyway, and then once that's out of the way, once we get to deep dive, just get all get all into that Slemish just get all pruney with that Slemish goodness. Uh, because we're so deep in it, then, then, then it's time to turn our eye toward Vampirates. Well, I mean, that just gives me like two more months that I can spend money on magic cards before whatever gets you. Oh, Jesus, Pete's. I mean, my my greatest fear is that this vampire army is everything that we think it will be. Okay, that it's like a reintroduction of the classic vampires and introduces a new mortar with vampire elements, and that I'm gonna have like two armies in the first half of 2021 that I actually want to buy, which would be amazing because that'll actually be my first death army in AOS. You know, I had somebody ask me this that I think I upheld my pledge almost two years in a row. Yeah, basically. Yeah. Because I didn't start any new armies this year. Yeah, I mean, that wouldn't have happened probably if we had had events, but yes. Right. Like maybe because I probably want to play Fire Slayers or KO with how good they were. And so like I have an LRL box, but I'm not like I'm not playing them. And we have to wait till LRL to for you when they introduce the sword master unit, and then you can't help yourself. So that's that will probably be true. If they bring in like a sword master unit and some kind of air to like us, the sword master unit that we already know that has got to exist, right? Because we saw the one member of right. Right. And they bring in some kind of air to lions in some kind of way, right? Not just wouldn't be just new way lions, but it would be like something like that. You got some you got a problem with my look here. Sorry, I have I have I have Amber like giving me the stare. Oh, your wife is judging you. No, it's great. It's a plus look Tom. So anyways, that'll that's what'll bring you in fully to LRL. You won't be able to control yourself at that point. So there you go. That's probably true. Hey, I'm being invaded by kids and okay. Yeah, you're cute. Okay, thank you. It's like 930, go to bed. No, good stuff. Sorry. I'm again, it's a Christmas episode. It's all about family. So true. It's all about family. All right. So anyway, what's next, Tom? What else we got in the news? Oh, he's yeah, he's the craziness. Yeah, so like armies on parade dropped and they were sweet. They were sweet. There was such great looking armies. It was fantastic. Yeah, love seeing it. Some are really cool stuff. Did you see like painted by G Graham? He did that awesome halfling blood bowl team like in the picnic basket. Yeah, that was fantastic. Like it was so cool. I just I loved the the box for it. I thought that was so so amazing. Like just a lot of stuff I really enjoyed. I love seeing all those armies. It was great to see armies on parade. I was glad. Also want to shout out, shout out, bleep bleep. Yep, all bleep showed up. He showed up with his beautiful, beautiful, beautiful death army. And so I was happy to see him get recognized because that army is a labor of love. That is one of the greatest painted armies I've ever had the good fortune of judging. So, you know, it's one of the most beautiful armies I've seen. He's been working on it for, God knows what, three years now, something like that, three and a half probably. He took a thousand points of it to Adepticon three years ago. Yeah, I mean, it's that's what I'm saying. He's been on it forever. So, yeah. Yeah, that was some skeletons and Manfred. Absolutely. So, at any rate, he had his blood knights in that as well, Tom, by the way. He actually used the original blood knights. Somebody mentioned the blood knight that the rumor engine today kind of looked like blood knights or something like that. Certainly could have been. Who knows what you see. Like we called it last week that we thought there's gonna be new blood knights. Like I said, I think there will be new blood knights. I stand behind that. If there is any kid they know they can remake and plastic and sell a million of, it will be blood knights. I stand behind that call. I back that call. And the rumor engine really does look like the blood knight like armor slash. Sure. Yeah, I agree. Yep. Oh, there you go. Bleeps in the chat. Awesome. There you go. Hey, Bleep. What's up, buddy? Congratulations. And yes, if you ever get a chance to see his army going to an event just to see his death army is honestly would be worth your price of admission. It's gorgeous. It's outlandish. I feel bad for you if you're trying to win a best painted against him. Congratulations on your now probably at best second place. So at any rate, I remember that for the thousand point. And I was like, oh, I got this. I'm gonna all. Yeah, sure. No, not getting anything today. Yeah, I mean, there are just certain armies that that are out there that I've judged that I'm like, that are just a level above that when I've went out because, you know, I mean, judging the input of like display display quality armies. Yeah, I mean, I get to judge two out of the three biggest events in the US every year, as well as one that's in the top five or whatever, right? Top six, seven, eight, somewhere like that. It's pretty big event. So I get to judge lots of events. I get to see lots of armies and I really love it. Like just seeing people. I really, really, really love seeing people's armies in this game. I love seeing what other people paint. It's amazing. It's one of the best reasons to go to an event is just to like take in everybody's armies. But there are some armies I come across that absolutely stick in my head because they are just a cut above. Like there's something that is such a passion project, such a labor of love and done with such talent and and effort that they just stand out and bleeps is one of those. Oscar Lars's Nergal Army is another one of those, by the way, another quite beautiful one. I honestly think our good buddy Martin Orlando and his new Lumineth is going to end up being one of those. I haven't had the pleasure to see it in person, but I think he's just the amount of time he's putting into it. I think he's really pushing himself and doing some great stuff. And I hope to see new armies that completely surprise me when the events start up next year. So there we go. All right. Yeah, anything else in the news, Tom? Um, I don't think so. I mean, we have the short fiction thing that dropped for. Oh, we did. I want to talk about that. I want to talk about it, Tom. It's actually a big deal. Yep. So the new piece of short fiction dropped for Rogan realms. It only went to the email. So you have to be on the email list. They'll obviously they post them up a couple of days later on the site, right? But I did read it. And so it whatever it features three mega gardens, like clearly an SOV force who have lost all of their little baby giants who work for them. So it's like three brother Megas and they're in a cave hiding. Okay. And whatever most of the story is completely uninteresting and irrelevant, like literally this whole story could have been one sentence. So here's like basic premise to ruin the story for everybody. It's not exciting. I promise you, you're not missing anything is all they're like, one of them's like, do you hear weird thumping and then the side of the cave while they're hiding and explodes because they're like licking wounds. They talk about how much they hate fighting goldies and stuff like that. They're all beat up, right? And then a bunch of ogres come in a bunch of undercuts. They're all shooting them with little cannons and there's a little skirmish where they're killing the ogres and stuff and blah, blah, blah, blah. And so there's like a fight between the ogres and the three Megas and yada, yada, they're trying to get to the cannons. And then all of a sudden the front, the back door that they had just sealed up explodes. Like these guys, just lots of door explosions, I guess. And they're like, what? And both forces turn to look and it's like a bunch of traugoths and giants who have this big giant ram, like little baby giants who have a big giant ram. And they've rammed a door down and then a mawcrusher lands and a big orc steps out and he's like, hey, you lot, you're all with me now. We're going to go beat up that human city. Let's go. Okay. And it's Gordorak, the fist of Gork. And like they talk about the sort of magical effect that happens when he's near them to where like just there's no more, none of them think for a moment about opposing him or fighting him. Like all of the ogres and all the giants, like they feel better. They don't feel wounded. They're ready to fight. They're just like, yes, let's go. This guy's the chosen. Let's do this. Right. And so he's like, we're going to go beat up these Yumi's. They deserve it. That's it. The whole story is just that thing we called when we did our Broken Realms preview where I said book two was going to be a left turn, right? Of being Gordorak beating down the doors of Excelsis or whatever. Yep. And distracting the storm cast from having a legitimate reprisal on Marathi. Right. Is, is like exactly what, like that's what this story sets up to Harold. Yes. Exactly. Cause it was a completely pointless piece of narrative other than that, right? Like there was no character being revealed, no interesting portion of the world. It was three giants in a tiny cave in, in literally anywhere, mortal realms, right? They don't even talk about what realm they're in. Right. And so it just seemed to be setting up like, yes, Gordorak will be the, like the next book is, could be the next book or the next book after that. Like we're setting up that we're going to get Broken Realms Gordorak and he's going to smash the walls of Excelsis down. Yep. Which is cool. That'll be an interesting story. Like I, they're going to break realms. So make sense. There you go. Um, I just hope that they don't have the story be like the worst way this would play out is Gordorak plows through Excelsis, gets stopped before he like breaks into Aesir or whatever. Yeah. But like weakens the door enough that, oh, then chaos can come in. Gordorak opened the door for the chaos force or whatever. Right. And then there's like a war in Aesir because, because Gordorak was just a stupid pawn who was doing stupid destruction things and has no agency. Right. Just whoops, the hurricane broke the levy and you know, and that's it. Like chaos, chaos, like that's the worst version of this story. Um, so let's hope we don't get that. Um, anyway. Uh, so, uh, yeah, that was, that was, that's why I want to talk about the story because it seemed to confirm, you know, we had talked about that. I think, I think they're going to left turn and do a destruction thing at some point broken realms. I said probably the next book could be the one after that. This seemed to imply that that's correct. So yeah, no, I would agree with that. You know, I'll tell you what it, it said AOS three may be, you know, like order versus destruction since 1.0 was versus chaos and 2.0 was versus death. I would love that because that would mean that they're actually have more agency, right? It's not just like, oh, they come up, they get defeated and then, then the real threat comes in, right? That's the story I don't want. If it's like they break down Excelsius and now there's this ongoing thing and they end up being part of the new box set or the major player in AOS 3.0. Yeah, that sounds great. Like I'd be all about that. Then hopefully we could see some real agency in destruction. You know, we've talked about that a lot. Um, and yes, Cordrack is absolutely the Kool-Aid man. 100%. Oh yeah, he's coming in. Yeah, exactly. Yep. We're darts. Um, and by the way, I agree with Nicholas Kirk that said no one should get into Aesir. It's like Terra being invaded. It's an end time scenario. I completely agree. Aesir should remain untouched this, this non realm. I know everybody wants to be like, I'll bring in the grim dark, just like flagellate ourselves. But like, how about we have a story with some hope in the mortal realms? Like a little bit of hope. It's still dark times, right? You know, like that would be great. Okay. Yeah. Cordrack has one realm. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Everything else is contested. Don't tell yourself any other thing. Yeah. I mean, arguably death has one full control of one realm. I don't think chaos really contests Nagash's will and Shai-ish really. Like, yes, there are chaos there, right? But it's just, invading Aesir is just a bad story. It's a boring story. It's a trite story. Like having a story with like, you can fight for it. You can have reasons why they're battling at the gate of it to keep people out. But there's a reason to keep a Rubicon in place. Right? Because like the concept of the shining city on the hill is valid. Like it's forming an important narrative purpose. And you know, it's a better and more compelling world if that's the case. If everywhere is just war, if everywhere is just fighting, if nowhere is special, if everywhere sucks, what are we fighting for? It's a bunch of guards. Right. Like it's more interesting if they purge, if they get like order gets purged out of a realm. Sure. Yeah, yeah. Well, like losing a city was huge to Marathi, right? Like Anvil Guard, that is a massive thing. Thousands and thousands of innocent people, of followers of order were killed there, right? Right. Like that's an interesting story. You can have stuff like that happen. Like that's fine. But I just, I don't want Stalingrad 1943 or whatever, whatever year that happened, right? That's not interesting. Yeah, I agree with Paul. The exception is to find the normal. I agree. Okay. Cool. So anyways, that's probably for a separate, we could do a whole show on that at any rate. So like the narrative, like the narrative developments, dos and dos. Yeah, absolutely. That'd be a great light. Like, how do we form this story the best? Yeah, I think that's awesome. Okay, cool. Well, Tom, let's do some pick of the week. A long new segment today. But that's all right. What do you got? Do you have anything you want to share with everybody? I just had something. Okay, well, you remember it while I'm telling mine. How about that? That's fine. Mine, I want to share a nice battle report from our friend Doom and Darkness. Just posted up today, watched it earlier today. Great bat rep. There's a reason I'm specifically directing people to this battle report. Because I think it's often easy for us to get lost in the discussion of like, oh, this army is too powerful. I can't beat it. And like, okay, there are some armies that are out of bounds, and certainly things need to be reigned in and stuff like that. But that's not a reason for all doom and gloom. Ironically, given the channel. But the reality is, this is a game of ogres against like an all like a mainly glutton list. Okay, like we are talking about no stone horns in this list, right? This is like a tyrant and a ton of gluttons, and a few iron guts, and a couple butchers in blood gullet, like, you know, just body ogres, going up against like a pretty solid fire slayers list, right? Is it the most perfectly finely tuned? No. Is it a very good list? Yes. It's a very good list with like 20 hearthguard and all the buffs and all the right prayers in hermdar with lords of the lodge, like all the, all the BS is in play. And that's no offense, by the way, the guy who played it, the guy Frank who played it seems like a super nice, very awesome guy. I just like fire slayers get under my skin in a way I cannot fully explain. They are my least favorite army in the game to play. I hate them with a fire with 1000 suns. It's why I just have to take them whenever I play with them. Yeah, I understand. They're the worst. I mean, you're not alone. Obviously, I have another person in our group who comes over who plays fire slayer. So I've had the, the ill occasion to play them a lot. I play Zeech change host a lot too. You know what? Way more fun. That's not as true. It's more, way more fun playing change host than it is because you get to remove enemy models. Correct. You're like, like there's actually like a game state change, right? Like, yes, things actually occur in the game. Right. Where when I play, I mean, things occur when I play fire slayers, like you attack me, I have removed two models, then I attack, watch, you know, sorry, I charge you half my unit. I attack you, remove ab model, you attack and remove the other half of the unit. Yeah, there we go. Yeah, it's a great game. Who doesn't love that? That's where I was going with it. And I just, I didn't get there. Yeah. I mean, you killed a model or for HGV in winter FAQ or we riot, lose the horror discount. Should have never been there to begin with. I mean, if you do that, if you do that, any footprint fire slayers have will disappear. Good. 480. That's like, I don't care. I don't care. There's plenty of other people who don't have footprints, Tom. There's plenty of other people who don't have footprints. Shut up. Shut up. I don't want to hear it. Next. It's the only thing that makes them viable competitively on. So at any rate, the point is it's a great battle report because and the reason I'm recommending it is because you get to see a really good, really well played game by both players. And it's sort of like the raw power of the fire slayers being brought against like doom, who's absolutely playing his heart out. And I won't tell you how it ends. They're playing blades edge. It's a great game. And like, it just shows you how, how much play matters, right? Not just like raw killing power. Okay, like we talk a lot in the game about raw killing power, like this unit will totally nuke that unit. It doesn't matter if that unit isn't fighting anybody, right? A unit just standing there not in position isn't winning any games, right? So it was just a really good game. I thought it was like very well played AOS and a cool example. So with two, two cool looking forces. So there you go. Linked in the description below. Tom, what's your pick? Yeah, I remember what it was. So Tyler Mangles blog, Mangle Miniatures, he did a master class tutorial on the Dread pageant. So of the new Splinesh models. And I just loved his purples in there. Like, you know, like I didn't necessarily agree with all the compositional decisions between like the with the pink, but the purples and the pinks, the purples and the pinks looked great. They are the best colors. They are. So there you go. Awesome. Yeah, no, that's a great call, a great shout out. Tyler is an awesome, awesome painter and his like all the various little tutorials and everything he puts out are fantastic. I don't mean little in a diminutive way, I just mean like he tends to write succinctly, which is what's awesome. Like he's great at doing like literally a little tutorial that is highly packed with information. So there you go. Okay, cool. It's great. And I love the darker skin. Like if I do Slunesh, I would do a darker skin tone, like a Middle East bearing slash even maybe like a like an African skin tone with purples and golds. Like I think it would just be hot. Yeah. Like, yeah, I agree. All right. Well, let's move on to some hobby time, shall we? Okay, so hobby time. Tom, what have you been working on this week? Anything interesting in here in your in your Christmas, Christmas time? No. I do like that you looked around to think about it for a minute. That's nice. Yeah, like, because like, I've been doing a lot of like, we have some of her family coming in. And so I like, I've been, we've been on like major project mode in the house. Sure. And so like, I've been you can't tell, but I've been actually like cleaning my space and like doing some major reorg stuff. And so that's why I was like checking. Gotcha. Because I was trying to think like what what else other than cleaning that have I done and have actually fit in any painting in the middle of that. Gotcha. Okay, fair enough. For myself, I have been I'm working on this big boy right here. So this is my I had gotten an additional mega for my birthday. And so this is him converted up. This is going to be the one who's wielding the incandescent rageblade, which if you watched when I did a sons of behemoth show last week with with AOS coach, which if you haven't watched that yet, go check it out. I talked about how I think giving the gate breaker, the incandescent rageblade is the right answer, the right play. So this is going to be my guy with the incandescent rageblade, which I can see no problems or issues ever with converting a model to have a realm artifact on him. It's never gone wrong for me before ever. And I don't expect it to go wrong here. Checked out. I love his feet, by the way. Oh, thank you. He has the night feet. Yes. Yes. Yeah, he's got imperial night metal feet and obviously like that his right arm is metal. And then I guess as Brian said in the chat, he's Timmy Titanfoot. Yes, indeed. Timmy Titanfoot. Yes. And I guess he has like I was I was trying to think about what to do with the I wanted to use the gate breaker hood, but I didn't want to use the gate breaker face. And I was like, well, with a hood like that, you're inevitably just going to end up, you know, like a deptus mechanic s or dark mechanic. I'm like, it's just the end of every road. Everything evolves into crabs and everything eventually becomes dark mechanical. So yeah, just shoved a bunch of tubes up there, getting him to have eyeballs. I don't think you're going to see it. See how he has like eyes. Yeah, that was actually a really interesting challenge because that's all just negative space in his head. Like he just has a big empty head. There's nothing in there because it slide the face up in. So I sit in there like, what am I going to do? Do I want to just leave those black, like black and empty? I was like, it feels like there should be something in there. So I can paint it and put pinpricks light on. And I was looking down at my desk after I clipped out all the bits and the mega gargant kit comes with two arrows. Like, you know, the old giant came by the bunch of arrows, like a ton of arrows that you could like stick into their flesh. You know, you're supposed to like cut off the top of it and stick it in their flesh or something. I had, well, the mega kit comes with like two. I don't know why it only comes with two, but it does. And I was sitting there looking at them and I was like, huh, I wonder. And then like, so I just like cut that very back of them off and then got a pair of pliers and just like put a little bit of, uh, of sprugu on the back and just literally like stuck it straight down into his eye hole and held it there and then let go. And now there's like a rod that's actually attached to the back of his head. But just like, and then I just, but he literally looked like he had arrows sticking out the front of it. And I just came back in once I had him attached and cut him. So it was nice. It was a funny little opportunity. Monkeyman says, will there be a hobby cheating on stitched skin? There is. It's already up. It's like hobby cheating four or five or six ago. So go check out the recent ones. Yes, I have a stitched skin tutorial. So there you go. All right. Cool. Oh, right. So with that, let's turn into our topic tonight. Shall we, Tom? Uh, okay. Just move that over at the 40 mark while I change our other items up here. There we go. Bring up the spider writers. Okay. So let's talk about the naughtiest war scrolls in AOS. So here's the idea. Here's the premise for tonight's show stretched as thin as I could stretch this. The basic concept is this, which I've got our first scroll we'll talk about up on the screen, Tom, which is one of yours, I believe. Here's the idea of the thing. Tom and I went on a journey today. A journey, I tell you. Okay. Well, this kind of started last week, right? Yeah. Yeah. Because I bitching so hard about spider writers and just that the that the base stuff to the base clay you're working with, the foundation is sand, right? Right. Then I realized it was Festivus that was today as well. And that they're an important part of that is the airing of the grievances, right? And then I thought about the naughty and nice thing and this all came together. So then Tom and I went on the journey today of finding that what what we think are the 10 10, maybe 11, but, you know, whatever, there's a couple, a couple other close ones. Worst War Scrolls in AOS. Okay. So there are three things that can make you a worst War Scroll. The more of them you have and the more strongly you have them, the worse you are. So these aren't any particular order when we go through them. Like I'm not saying I don't we don't we're not here to crown a champion of like the absolute worst War Scroll, right? But we are going to air grievances with these 10 scrolls and then figure out how we make them nice. Yep. So we're going to rewrite their rules. Now three, here's your three criteria that with it I think we used to get here, right? And yes, I could have done like a super clicky the top 10 worst War Scrolls in AOS could have done that didn't do that. I'm not about that life at any rate. No, this is a Christmas special. It's a Christmas special. It's more fun to do an audience nice thing and whatever whatever. And this is the kind of thing we like to do weird, weird titles. Okay. One, it basically never shows up in lists. Okay. Like especially it has no presence in lists of the of that army. Yes. Outside of like outside of people who have a very passion or a thing, right? And our only player playing it narratively or so on and so forth, right? So it's largely completely absent from competitive lists. Largely, as near as we can tell. Two, there aren't points that would really make it viable. That would it would ever reasonably be placed, placed at, right? So in other words, like, ha, ha, ha, we could point a Laurel at zero points. By the way, Laurel is not one of the 10 worst. She's bad scroll. She's not one of the 10 worst, right? Like, okay, we can put a Laurel at zero points. Like I get you, Rob. That's very funny. But like, that's obviously never going to happen, right? You're never going to put a Laurel like 150 points or something like, right? You're never going to have like a No one's going to put her at 300. Right. You're never going to put a Saigur at 30 points or something like that. You know what I mean? Like these just, these are unrealistic values, which is kind of what they would have to be at to actually be viable. And that would just cause this drain circling thing that's never going to happen, right? Right. Okay. So there's no, basically the Venn diagram of like points where they would be valid choices and points where, uh, what the GW would actually assign do not overlap, right? That, that being the main point there. Okay. Right. All right. And then point the third, okay, is that their overall rules are just bad in a way that they don't actively fill any role that you can, that we can tell, right? Like there's some scrolls that just don't seem to actually do anything, do anything other than exist, right? Right. Now, like they, they fill no role well. Right. Absolutely. Uh, that can't be engineered in such a way as to fill a role. Right. Right. Right. Right. Now, each of these war scrolls has those things, each of these three things in some degree or another, right? But like some lean much more heavily on other aspects than others. And I love how everybody, like if you watch the scrolling chat, like all the, the various gems of a lot of our list. I know. Yeah. Yeah. People are already starting to put in them gems. Now here's the thing, folks, you're going to disagree with us. That's fine. Okay. We're going to defend our picks. You have your own. That's okay. Here's the great challenge. The challenge was to limit it to 10. Like if this was just let's name a bunch of bad war scrolls, sure, I could pick 50 like bad war scrolls in a game of like, uh, I don't know how many there are a thousand 1200 war scrolls, like something crazy, right? Okay. And so the challenge was, can you find stuff that's like a cut above bad to straight, terrible? Right. Right. There's a real difference between bad because most bad still fill a role. Like even if that role is just chaff. All right. Oh, thank you very much Cameron Thompson. No, legacy war scrolls not included. So this is worst of the non-legacy war scrolls or legends. These are the worst of the war scrolls that are still in print that somebody within the last year or two actually touched and pushed to a printer. Yeah. Like non-legends war scrolls. Right. Right. Okay. Cool. That thank you very much Cameron. That was an important caveat because like obviously a lot of bad stuff has been shuffled off to legends, but there's no fun in that, right? Like just going and shooting fish in a barrel that is like old legends war scrolls that haven't been touched for a long time. Right. So, right. Same thing. Design work done and play testing done in the last couple of years. Yeah. For the same reason I left out all of the forge world like monsters, arcanum scrolls, even if some of them are still technically valid because I just don't know what those are or what those purpose are in the game or who's updating them. So we just kind of like left the forge world monstrous arcanum stuff out. Like I'm not worried about like mirror worms and you know these kinds of things because I don't even know what I'm not I off the top of my head. I wouldn't even know what's still legal there and what's not like what's so valid in an army and what's not. I wasn't and they're just like they're just not part of the game. They're just not. They're they're a funny little thing. Right. Yep. Okay. So there you go. These are kind of the rules. Like yes correct. I would still like bone grinder but by the way the bone grinder wouldn't be in my bottom 10 anyways. I don't know if he'd be in my bottom 40. Right. Limit like every time we had a big discussion Tom and I with a bunch of other people today around this as people were throwing around ideas like we workshop this some and you know one of the interesting things about this was like there's a lot of different suggestions about these scrolls and I would always say okay yes that's bad like no disagreement by not making this list we're not saying you're good right like there are tons of bad scrolls not on this list. The question is when you look at something right you go okay but is that worse than X and you go oh god no it's not right that's the that's the thing you have to keep challenging yourself with and I disagree with I already know one of Tom's picks but that's all right we'll keep going right and you're all right I got one like my number five I was like I think my last one's this and he's like what no way and I was like no I think it's on there yeah and we'll talk about it. We'll talk about it all right but Tom start us off spider writers you picked it as one of the bottom 10 worst scrolls in the game and here's the thing I don't disagree. I don't disagree I think this is actually a very very bad war scroll but walk us through it Tom. Okay so let's talk about let's uh so right now they are five models for 100 points yeah um they're each uh they're on cav bases two wounds each on a five plus safe okay yeah so they uh let's talk about their special rules um I'll go through the rules and then I'll go actually let me do the profiles first okay so all the writers have bows each of these bows have two shots at 16 inches hitting on fives looming on fives one damage yep that's right yes correct a unit of thing has an average of less than one damage with their shooting I masked all these scrolls out by the way the the literal average is less than one damage they have about an 80 chance to deal one or zero damage continue right okay for 100 points so then but then they get into melee and the goblins have a crooked spear with a two inch reach one attack each hitting on fives looting on fours no run one damage yep and then the fangs the bites um are one inch reach two attacks fours and fours and on hitting uh no run one damage every six on those bites by the way uh does a mortal wound and so you you look at that and go there it is there's the magic because they have these special rules that let them actually um fives if they're under the light of the bad mood all right and so there you're like okay they're gonna spit out mortal wounds well they're not okay because they're the that attack that that ability is on is on their the fang the spider fangs which are a one inch reach on a calf base mm-hmm yep okay it should also be noted that other than like the spider uh literally the white dwarf that just got printed that lets you call the bad moon basically right yep um you all the other synergistic buffs that happen with like the loon boss or whatever he is on the spider like you you have the spider fangs yeah they do yeah the spider boss with the item he so you couldn't run around with the spider on the item yes i'm saying his basic command ability oh yeah that yeah another candy ability like right the arachnid rock could cast a spell and increase the damage on the on the bites and the spider boss could run around and give like let him bite on fives but again it's only on the spider fangs which is a one inch reach reach on a calf base right but but all that's just bad but let's just talk about the fact that like you know how like units get like drummers and and like totem bearers and all that yeah all of those abilities are only like you only get those models if you don't take minimum size units right because it's got to be one in ten so you don't even get a drummer until you've spent 200 points on this unit mm-hmm yeah you don't get a banner bearer on this bravery four unit of spider riders correct until you have them to bravery six yes to like right and now you have ten of them so you have enough to actually flee from battle shop right like because if you lose one then you're just you're rolling every one you lose you're just rolling how many you lose right at that point right and so the problem is they don't actually do anything they don't do anything on the battlefield they don't like so here's the problem you can't push them down to 80 points because it's just not like it's not really reasonable because at that point you're getting into just the raw meat zone mm-hmm like 80 like ten wounds for 80 points and then they actually have some usable abilities and so you really don't have a lot of wiggle room at 100 points yeah and then a lot of the synergy for this army is just simply not there particularly the army synergy with the bad and so they just really struggles um and so like talk about something real quick here a lot of the sort of natural synergies with this army are about running and shooting with the bows okay yeah like just a lot of the sort of naturally natural synergy type stuff this falls into this weird category which we're going to see some more models of later on in this worst list right where they clearly had two different consent it's almost like they had two different people write these units where somebody thought the unit was all about being a skirmishy shooting unit and somebody thought the unit was all about being a melee chargey unit and they and they just didn't talk with each other and they both wrote half the scroll or half the synergies and then married both the whole thing together together right right um because that's really what this feels like because their bows are straight terrible by the way they're called spider bows in the description it talks about poison arrows and yet and yet they are not poisoned in any way yeah i just like and if people are saying well they're chaff but they're not good chaff for that same points you can get you can get uh the squig hoppers okay that are four plus armor and do mortals on a charge right for the same points or you can get the cheaper hoppers that that that move 3d6 yeah and so like they they're not even good chaff because they don't do what you need them to do and their shooting doesn't actually do anything um nick stockton said they are poison to lists yeah so like it's just it's just it's it's struggled it fails on all points right they don't compete with anything else in this uh in this army and they don't serve a function okay so you're ready for my solution i'm ready so now let's make it nice fix the scroll for me tom two abilities i'm ready okay i'm not gonna do what you propose i remember you saying well maybe looking at a four plus save would be a solution to this sure um i'm not gonna do that i'll leave them on fives i want them to be these crazy um gobbos okay um like bone clad unarmored gobbos they're they're five plus calf i'm okay with that that's fine uh so i'm gonna make three changes i'm gonna add two abilities okay and i'm gonna uh all of the all of the totem stuff just goes to five models one and every one and every five because that's what every other cab unit does sure there's not another cab unit that requires double taking okay so the first thing uh the second is is that i'm gonna be uh i'm gonna say for defenses instead of giving them the four plus uh units in melee take neg one to hit okay because they have like webs they're right they're writing spiders that are pooping webs yep okay right i have no pushback on that it makes sense okay um and then you go one of two ways with the next thing okay okay either you give them inventum weapons all of them all the weapons gain the spider freedom which by the way makes complete sense like the spider fangs are dripping with right now quick aside tom right now in my current dnd game i'm playing a grung i don't know what that is but it's a little frog okay and they're adorable and awesome yep and you're constantly coated in poison as a grung like you literally see poison from your body okay and one of the things you can just do is just poison your weapons by going yep and now that's a poison weapon right like you can just wipe it and that's it like that's just an ability you have as a grung you can just poison your weapons these dudes have poison it's there it's on the fangs you think they just like touch the spear down the fangs a little bit be like hey thing that i am in charge of drip some goo on this thank you okay great gotcha yep yeah so it just makes sense and yes and it actually matches the narrative fluff that's supposed to like give you the entire heart of the of the of the unit you mean the fluff is currently written at the top of the scrolled world yes that's meant they have poisoned weapons right yes poisoned arrows and jabbing okay so and then the other thing that i would do or i would consider like that's those are aggressive changes um this is also aggressive i the other thing that i would consider is make it so that uh because of their webbing units units engaged in within three inches can't retreat no that'd be a fun one that's interesting so suddenly it becomes a tech piece sure because you can try to pin on the corner and keep people from retreating yeah that's cool and so there you go 100 points for that type of chaff kind of utility have the chance for mortal wounds and then you actually have a function on the battlefield yeah and then like you could go around and fish for sixes and just kind of skirmish with all the existing run abilities right and you know like you're just fishing for sixes to get little mortals because again they're bows i cannot stress this enough do not do damage like i know they have attacks mathematically a unit of the five of these attacking does like 0.6 damage it's not real that's not damage you're gonna hear that a lot in things we talk about where i'm just like yeah mathematically it doesn't exactly do yes right like you don't do anything with you roll dice but you don't actually generate damage and uh and so and i don't think that it would make it too over the top they would still not be good in combat you know like that like there's like this by the way doesn't resolve the like i want to play a spider army and i want to run bricks of these sure because they're still bad in bricks because you need the two inch reach for the bite but what it would give you is the the bows and the spears which both have longer reach so that even if you're the fangs you're not getting most of your bites there you're you're still getting um you're still getting the mortals you know from like the back it's it look it it feels like it should run as a more msu build of an army right it doesn't feel like they're marching out with giant bricks of of cav that's not right um but at the same time you could try the big tar pit of just like here's 20 of them you can't kill 61 and i'll just you know right and you can't because right now because right now they're uh the max of a block of 30 yeah i mean which which is yeah that's whatever it's kind of crazy but like giving i honestly like the scroll you built i mean they probably get priced at like 100 120 they're already 100 right now maybe they go to 120 with that ability so like that maybe i don't know but that's fine that seems fine like again they're they're they're they're so still weak and and glass canony right like these these guys will still die in droves if anything shoots at them even remotely right um and they'll run away when they do because you just have to yeah because their bravery is still garbo as well by the by right like we haven't fixed and i don't think we should right uh so no that feels right i like that i like that fix a lot tom i think that i think that would make them a nice scroll right it would it would make me look at them and go oh i could do some fun things with this yeah like it have a couple different ways it could be played it give them some interesting tech some interesting you know some interesting utility and a little bit of offense perfect yeah sounds like a nice scroll to me awesome okay uh by the way by the way doom i don't know if you've been following i have i followed a journey yeah he's like i'm gonna defend him and if we walk through all that he's like many things are trash i can't defend them they are so bad it's really shocking okay so bad all right let's go to my so i'm gonna do a scroll next to your tom yep he's been up and hidden because i had to readjust this size because by the way downloading these things and so just so anybody everybody knows yes all these scrolls are free i'm just no i'm not sharing anything it's not public facing information in case people aren't aware like all these are free downloads from the site i literally went and grabbed all the pdfs directly from gw's website in the public facing document um which the problem with that is some of these are like really really goofily laid out so some of them will start small i'll have to adjust them i adjusted this one yep all right next up is our boy the caribdis the caribdis uh okay the caribdis is real bad i want to start there i do think he absolutely fits as one of the 10 worst scrolls in the game wow bold bold statement yeah i understand okay let's talk about why this guy is so bad all right so the caribdis i mean you can look at the scroll you can see what's going on here i'm not telling you anything you probably don't know so this guy's one model counts as one thing he has that so first of all he has all the standard monster not a hero problems we've talked about in the past right counts as one dude big base blah blah blah all that kind of stuff right bad wounds to points ratio all that's all of that is in play here right he has poor board control etc yep yep he's got 12 wounds on a four up save for 170 points again no no universe where this is worth it especially when you look at his damage profile unwounded this guy's fang tentacles are six attacks on fours and threes neg one rend two damage and that's like that's the best attack he's got going for him and it ain't that good okay the tail is even worse because it's random yes it hit yes it could wound on twos when you're unwounded no rend one damage who cares a random number of attacks but no rend one damage and then the limbs are threes and threes with like one rend yay but still one damage and then you get the two stupid goats and whips this guy does almost no damage okay almost none like if you map this out he's like he's hanging out the spider iders yeah he's not that bad but yes he's pretty bad he he hits for about an average uh assuming he's unwounded he does about three to five damage okay that's that's where his damage falls he did not come in like a wrecking ball no and his wound chart is abysmal let's direct out your eyes to the wound chart where does he chart his zero to one one one wound he can take one wound without diminishing his profile goes to two wounds you immediately lose effectiveness just like that it's shocking how bad this guy's wound chart is well you can get a mount trait you can you can give him a mount trait and i'll tell you it almost kept him off the list almost okay because of the anvil guard like mount trait that gives him like burning blood where you can kick back mortals yep almost kept him off the list i went back and forth on this guy so hard okay uh but in the end the fact that this dude has no range threat does almost no damage when he gets there and by the way moves seven inches seven his speed is seven as a big giant non-flying monster wow seven huh that's that's what we're going with seven inches higher at elf faction yes he is a scourge privateer so you can get plus one to attacks like his the hero can give plus one to the entire profile like all the way down the line well hot to do hot to do hot to do let's start with this guy's worthless abilities because they're funny too you have to slide over for this that's right left to right scrolling because that makes sense um he subtracts one bravery from enemy units okay i like that like sure like a million models do that it's fine it's not bad it's just nothing to write home about if he if he if he's slain any models he can heal d3 wounds i don't mind combat phase healing it's okay that would assume he's still alive which seems highly unlikely uh and quick with the last shot attacking anything that matters yeah quick with the lash and actually decent ability that still had to have some kind of negative to it whereas before you make the charge rule you can you can roll 3d6 and then drop the lowest like of course because he couldn't just get 3d6 charging like a good version of this rule no it has to be 3d6 drop the lowest it's still just a max of 12 he can't declare a charge at a longer distance or anything and if you roll a triple which admittedly is not common it's not as bad as the giant double rule but if you roll a triple he just suffers a more suffers a mortal wound and can't charge yeah we had to we had to tamp down on this power by having a negative effect like are you for real with that last sentence why no it should be if he rolls a triple you like do 10 mortals yeah you just do more because it's cool that's awesome way to go man like she's a peach everything about this is wrong like except for the feast of bones that's the only ability that makes sense because he can i mean heal i don't hate him and like i don't know if he honestly i don't know if he deserves to be on this list wow um i mean he's bad he is but there but there but because of the synergies that can come to bear on him i don't know that he's that bad yeah i mean here's my problem with him tom the fact that he's got everything monster going against him yeah like so we're starting there right yep this is he's one model he has poor board control he sucks the controlling objectives right so as we established in the fixing monsters show you either have to be worth it for offense pound for pound or you have to be bringing utility of the table this guy does neither in a way that most other monsters even fail at his damage is pitiful his movement is ungodly bad right like if this guy even gets minorly wounded he's moving five inches he's stormcast slow yeah okay and by the way his damage is now effectively like two like literally two is what he's going to do at that point get out of here yep okay like it's just bad he's the worst of a worst cohort right and that's why i think he's one of the one of these 10 now i submit to you he's naughty okay and he is such a great model a lot of these by the way are tragic because i think the models are cool um and most of these models are actually cool like the spider writers are actually really cool models this cryptus is a super cool model i actually love the cryptus i think he looks cool in the war hydra because the weird sucky heads i think look awesome okay how do we fix this guy well here's here's step number one we're going to fix his wound chart to bring him in line to the current standard of wound charts monster wound charts right like his wound charts going to be zero to six he's at the at the top level or something like that and then we go down from there okay right um i mean don't even get me started on that freaking turtle all right and how it has to suffer like two thirds of its wounds or half its wounds or whatever before it even diminishes at all okay so we're going to fix his wound chart that's number one so we can actually take some damage and still be good number two um this guy's going to count as three models i know that's not a huge deal but it's a thing we're going to do because there's actually two other guys on the back of him okay like the whole reason he's got cool goats and whips is because there's literally two dark elves following him around there are three beings in fact here in this model so he's going to count as three dudes okay for taking objective doesn't fix him it's a long way off but at least he's better than one ogre okay all right but now let's get to the stuff that really matters okay which is i i don't hate the idea okay that we have a slow moving monster all right like okay he's not that fast because he's got to be whipped and goaded and stuff like that into place i'm all right with that like let's just go with that that premise okay right and i want to keep him costing roughly the same amount of points right the key is he like when he makes contact it needs to be meaningful correct exactly yep so that you're so that you're so that you have a reasonable bully because of a valid role to play as a 170 to 200 point monster because that's where i'd want to keep him at right is something your opponent can't ignore right if they're focused to go like you know push melee troops toward him to fight him or to go charge him so they can kill him before you can kill them or something or direct shooting at him that's great that's a distraction carn effects right like that's a role there's a purpose to that thing in an army right and yep so like that can be valid so what we're gonna do is first of all we're gonna take those fanged tentacles okay uh we can keep the same attack profile of like six five four three two but keep in mind we fixed the wound chart remember so like he's gonna hold six a lot longer okay and his two hit is going to go to three his two wound is going to go to two his rend is going to go to three and his damage is going to go to three okay like that's what we're all about here right we're all about the big giant sucky heads and they'll do a lot of damage right now if you wound him that scariest profile diminishes but again you've got to actually pour significant effort into him because i'm suggesting he doesn't go down until six wounds right and then we take the other attacks of him which is the spiked tail and the clawed limbs we basically keep them the same but they both go to rend neg one two damage because he's a monster and all monsters should always hit for at least two damage right so they're still the same thing still two limbs he's got two arms our got it cool two you know two attacks threes and threes neg one two damage and his spiked tail is d six at fours and two three whatever neg one rend two damage and then sure the little goats and whips are like you know goblins on the back of a giant spider it's fine right we keep him so he's still not defensive like i'm not upping his defense at all he can still only heal in combat he's still slow but that's now like that turns his average damage up into you know in the tens ish range right it'll put him up in like the 10 to 15 ish damage is what he'll hit for and like the idea there would be okay cool that's a thing i can't ignore right like it's a valid threat that i have to pay attention to uh and there you go like that's a scary monster but he's not defensive he's not fast can't fly right he's gotta he's gotta walk his happy butt across the board right and do the work but if he gets there or you use him smartly cool then he's a good piece sure there you go uh all right right on that makes him nice to me right he's because i think distraction carnifex is a valid role especially in a city's army like having a big weird monster that you can't ignore is actually quite useful because you want to protect your infantry blocks right you want to have them be able to move out get in position set up do the things you want to do and so if you've got this big if you've got this big piece that's kind of just out there roaming as a solo operator right that the enemy has to pay attention to that takes the pressure off your main blocks mm-hmm so okay cool Tom let's go to one of yours you ready yep all right let's do hate that i have to put this thing away uh beasts oh nergal my friend this one was yours yeah and boy does it earn its place i completely agree with you uh so walk us through uh the beasts oh nergal Tom i'm pulling it up on my computer as well so i can zoom in yeah yeah so the beast of nergal is a single model at like i don't know 80 points is i think what they're last at something like that um i don't think they've dropped from that are you asking how expensive these are he is he has 70 points oh i'm sorry he's 70 guess what still not worth it um so the beast of nergal is a seven wound single model on a five up save with a five up after save watch out now um he has a movement of five um he has uh a d6 claw tentacle attacks um let me say that again he has uh a d6 attacks that are this claw and tentacle profile that are fours and threes no ren one damage so on average you'll get three to three and a half you know three to four attacks and do functionally no damage and then you get a two inch reach slobbering tongue one of these on threes and threes d three damage no rent so that slobbering tongue is worse than the mage staff bop because there's no rent yes again this guy does almost no damage like statistically yes um he but i would just like to remind everybody that skanks like 60 points okay continue tongue they are it's not for any reason i just i just felt like randomly pointing that out at this point in time but yes please continue so this guy though he has an ability that you can roll a dice for each enemy unit within three inches of this unit if you make a retreat move on a four plus that enemy unit suffers a d3 mortal then mortal wounds that means on average he is doing more mortal wounds by running away than he would if he punched somebody in the face he stayed in combat which he has to actually survive to be able to do that move right right he can he can uh he can retreat and charge you know or he can charge if you ran or retreat it which is neat like i i don't want to minimize that and he has the locus of virulence which means he adds one damage to his weapon you know profiles if he's within seven inches of a nervel demon hero which okay he goes to two damage if he's near a hero on a d6 attacks um by the way he is just when i say this guy does no damage i think sometimes people don't understand what i'm saying when i say that so i'm going to make this very mathematically real for everybody okay here we go against a four up save this guy has a 43 chance of doing zero damage he has a 30 chance of doing one damage and a 14 chance of doing two meaning you have higher than a seven in ten chance to do one or zero damage when this guy attacks that's the real numbers okay for 70 points yes when i say that when we say these things do no damage we're not being facetious the statistical likelihood is literally no damage yeah okay he's a coin he's a coin flip of no damage yes that's right um right uh as opposed to a coin flip for a d3 mortals to run away um and he's not really survival so here's the deal like he's not doing anything ultimately the real like no and he's not really nice looking either he has like two swappable pieces but he's monopose and he's like 35 for a single model or something ridiculous so like it's just the worst um and what's most egregious on this war scroll is that he doesn't actually do anything yeah this guy's a king of like not filling a roll yeah because he can't do damage he's not survivable he can't cap or hold objectives he's not a hero i don't know what he's doing right like and so the problem is is that like and all of the vitalians and everything like trust me i've tried to make this dude work to run like three of them as a screen and it's just not viable it's just it's amazing how bad he simply is when like you could just take other things in nergal that are super like 10 times more effective yeah yep i agree um to do similar things much much much better okay so on top of that like let's read the description because i always like to go to the descriptions like to me they are the like they're they're the they are our guiding light there are north star to tell us what these guys should be doing they are as stupid as they are enthusiastic beasts of nergal are bound into battle with burbling bellows of joy huge slug like abominations with fanged maws and diseased tentacles their flabby bodies exude a paralytic slime that renders their victims helpless did you know they have a paralytic slime would have known it from the rules the beasts of nergal gleefully rip and crush their lackluster playmates until they their joy proves lethal before bounding off in search of new victims they die very very slowly apparently it's like the star lack pit it's like a thousand years for them to get through a single human right so what should these guys be doing when i read that description like the paralytic slime grabs my attention and rendering victims helpless nobody likes to be helpless i get that and so if you want to keep these guys at a similar point cost here's a here's a simple way to do this the they should have at the start of combat units within three inches you roll a dice on a four up that unit cannot move until i i don't know until the start of your next hero phase or something okay so they can't pile in or retreat or they can't pile in right and the key is is they can't pile in they can't retreat so they are locked in combat with this stupid nerglee beast and if this guy just like hit on an end where there's like one model engaging him that unit is going to do nothing for a very long time sure um and so it's going to do what you're saying it does what the description said yes yeah and then if you actually like and and so it actually it's not a problem that they don't do damage because they don't need to do damage right that they're paralyzing and they're just like mauling on the enemy and taking 10 years and that's okay right everybody wants them to do more damage that's fine i'm okay with that but ultimately they need to stop the enemy from doing things that's what their function is and if you do that they suddenly become a very like really scary tool in your toolbox yeah because you know there's no reasonable level we're going to point these guys at where they actually do enough damage to justify their existence there's just other things in nergal will take to do damage right that's not what these guys are going to be if they're going to have a purpose if these kind of weird cheap singlets are going to have a purpose especially as slow as this guy is then it has to have like some kind of cool extreme utility right right um so that would be something like that or or you could like split it up where you could tie part of that to the acidic slime trail and you could tie part of that to like you could also say that you like maybe you can never retreat from them sure okay and you can't even move at all on a on a four up or something like that right um but that's the point is that like they need to be this unusual tech utility piece in order to serve a function in the army yeah because they're not doing damage and you really can't point them to do damage and they can't hold objectives so that that's my vote like that's in order to make these guys useful i think that's what you have to do yeah somebody asks is there more than one beast in ergo model no there's only one but it comes with two different like it comes with a different head top a head option and bottom a head option and gut and different arm yeah gut and different arm yeah there it's it's one model in the pack you can just swap those two little for those pieces yep and if yeah and if you want to do his enthusiasm here you go he can pile it in an attack twice sure now he has two shots to do zero damage uh sure like okay whatever this guy yeah let this letting this guy participate in fighting twice is not this there's not equivalency here the people have been like okay fine yeah sure man whatever okay go ahead take take all the taxi one yeah i'm cool with that like right you know and and so then these guys like compile in six you know like move three attack move three yay you know sure sure whatever guy and actually like that could be used by the way to to move to pull enemies out of combat so you're still only in contact with one sure if he's piling in and the enemy is not ever right probably that becomes a super useful tool if he's piling in twice yeah i like it no i think that's a good fix i think that's that's cool because you know then he just kind of sits there and yeah he's just playing with his food at the edge of at the edge of a unit and being an interesting useful utility piece right which is what he's just gonna have like a trick to justify his 70 point existence because right now this guy's not beaten a command point like he's losing right he's losing two command point right because and the reason why he's not a good screen because here's the deal like i wanted him to be a screen yeah but that's just like a righteous but like but in the description that's not his purpose and like you need more models to block uh to screen with like he's just a single dude so unless you're forcing charges that was the other option you force all enemies within 12 inches to only charge you but at that point like there's nothing in the lore that's supporting that and so like i think that this kind of weird paralysis like uh joyous piling and enthusiasm i think that's the way to go to make this kind of more legitimate and get rid of the locus of virulence and just move the damage to two yeah sure sure absolutely like why yeah it's the silliest thing agreed okay okay that's that's how i fix them i like it it's a good fix okay uh cool let me bring up my next one i'll stay i'll stay on theme with you here tom uh as i bring up my next one which is slobby bile piper the herald of nergal oof poor guy uh that's right i'm putting him in the top 10 so this guy's uh let's let's lay down some basics move a four inches got a four up save standard bravery 10 for you know nergal demons whatever that's fine uh 90 points he is a leader he's taking up one of your one of your leader slots let's let's see what we get for this investment uh obviously as far as attacks go whatever i mean it's not generally little weird heroes like this he don't take him for their attacks and certainly his attacks are nothing to write home about at four attacks on fours three's nag one two damage uh he does do more damage on average than the uh beast and urgal than the beast and urgal yes uh which is fun uh so you know he's got that going for him it's not nothing uh this guy on average this guy uh just so we understand let's let's lay out some basic math this guy has a 37 percent chance to do zero damage yeah a 42 percent chance to do two damage his average is that he gets one hit through basically and it does two damage right and he has a very small chance to do four damage uh so at any rate still very much in the i do kind of no damage area but that's fine again not really his purpose four up save and a five up disgusting and resilient that's fine like this guy when you're talking about heroes like this the only purpose for little heroes like this is some kind of utility right and let's just start by saying this is like one of the most gloriously beautiful fun awesome nergal models they've ever made okay like this guy is probably like top 20 models designed in the last decade i okay good um all right so what are his two abilities well his mirth thing is he increases the bravery of nergal demons by one and subtracts one from the bravery of enemy units while they're within seven inches i understand the nergal and the number seven but uh boy does he have to be close to the enemy to give them neg one bravery and i'm not sure for this four inch move and by the way i'm not sure how much turning bravery 10 demons into bravery 11 ever matters in the history of the game ever so cool beans okay great my nergal demons that were already bravery 10 are now bravery 11 and i have again like i understand these neg one bravery effects can sometimes be a little relevant right sometimes maybe they can make a guy run or something like that i'm not saying that they're completely useless i'm saying they're whatever when you if you were to chart the asymptote of usefulness you know the line goes ever closer but never touches it's right there like it's yeah there it is you could just just see it okay uh all right so then okay well that does nothing all right great so that ability is just could have been the ipsum lorem text fantastic yep well we've got one more ability let's see if it's worth it here we go jolly gut pipes reroll failed charge rolls and hit rolls of one i was like when i first read that i was like whoa hold on what are we sleeping on this guy is he actually good and then i kept reading for friendly nerdlings and great unclean one units while they're within seven inches what what these are the two units he's inspiring with his tune what a weird pick he has just they have to be already the joyous people so like i assume the two happiest groups of people in nergal are the nerglings and the great unclean ones right they're both similar body types they both seem pretty happy and jolly why couldn't they have just been nergal demons right well don't get ahead to my fixes just yet tom okay like this is the most weirdly construed ability what why most of time you don't even want to be fighting with your great unclean one they're terrible combatants so i'm not charging or rerolling hits of one and they're heroes anyways so like if i ever needed to reroll a charge i probably just could right here's your alternative you save the hundred points you would spend on this guy and spend 50 of those on a command point and then 40 on something else anything else use that on demand yeah from the great unclean one who can do it to himself both of those things yes yeah i mean never mind the fact that you're like 40 points away from getting another unit or 50 points away i'm sorry from getting another unit of of blight kings when you buy this guy right and that just doesn't feel right at all um okay so he's terrible we get that like this guy is straight garbage because he's a utility hero with two completely worthless abilities or as near as we can get to that right again it's remember it's right down here right yeah right there uh rid not all right we can fix this though okay so first of all let's up this guy's move an inch this is just a minor thing he should move five inches he's like he's bouncy he's bouncy yeah like even his model conveys movement like the modeler modeled him to be conveying movement he's like literally skipping forward with his bagpipes he feels like a moving model i'm not asking him to have like a move of eight or something you know i'm just saying like he should be kind of faster than the average neuro gold even because he's like motivated to be skipping along and humming his tune that's a minor change it just feels like something that should be the case right he should be a little bit faster agreed okay cool um his like attack profile is honestly fine i don't care again this guy's not his guy's purpose is not to deal damage so right no damage from him is incidental he is a utility piece correct and then his saving is disgustingly resilient yep both nergal things fine good with both of them no issue there obviously what we're honing it on is the abilities right right he needs to you know be real utility yeah exactly okay so let's start with the jollygut pipes because that's the easiest one and you already said it tom which is just uh first of all we're gonna like we're gonna update this scroll to modern at the same time oh oh yeah hold on stop stop he should move seven oh because he's because he's got the nergal move yeah that's kind of a fun thing all right i like that scape you're absolutely right i was just thinking like making a move five but you're right if he was hopping along he's so infused with nergal's energy that he literally moves at seven yeah that's cool yeah that would be very fun i like that scape good good call there um so the jollygut pipes we're gonna do exactly what you just said tom like you you nailed it exactly it's just the jollygut pipe should be re-rolled failed charge rolls and hit rolls of one for friendly nergal demons that's where we're going to use the nergal demon keyword okay within seven inches within well or we could update it to the modern terminology and say holy within 14 for that right which would be fine like you do the double seven thing so yep i would be okay with either one of those i'd actually kind of rather prefer the second wording um just because they would bring it into modern yeah terminology and holy within 14 is a pretty generous uh yeah a pretty generous bubble it's acceptable yep it's acceptable exactly um then this guy's actually really interesting because you know he like nergal demons aren't classically the most offensive type of units you want to get in there but still it's interesting there are certainly things where that can play against uh where that can play with uh where that can still bonus like other nergal things that have the demon keyword it becomes kind of interesting um it would be neat to have him standing behind archaeon for example that would be a fun one um just kind of a neat little there'd just be neat synergies you can do with with nergal demon as the keyword right yes um the disease of mirth right like i i like what this is going for like the concept is that he's literally spreading this disease of mirth and making people really happy cause the enemy to literally die laughing yeah exactly yes yes again i'm going back to that north star yep yeah you're absolutely right that's you you you you sung on to what i was going to get right okay so 100% like yeah let's go to the description right uh infected with the plague of mirth they prance and quip entertaining nergal demons even if they cause the enemy to literally die laughing okay yep you you seized on exactly where i was going to go right so you know the uh you know the llama cat you know the uh my favorite one of my favorite models the llama cat right it has like this constant aura around it that's 12 inches where it can like you can play this little roll-off game with your enemy and if you win you make a unit fight last right yep okay yep all right what i want to do here is i want to i want this guy to have a 14 inch aura around him of his music right yep and enemies that are are in the any enemy that's in the mirth radius right yep the simplest version of this role okay probably like i've got a couple different versions of this here's the here's the like simplest play that fits the description the best that isn't really utility but would still be kind of cool yeah is any uh at the like in your hero phase or at some point in the shooting phase i don't give a crap at the end of his charge phase like pick some time that's neat um you roll a die for every enemy unit within 14 inches of him on a four plus they take a d3 mortal woods right as people start to die from laughter right that's just like the straight up easiest version of this thing okay sure sure okay the uh the more interesting version of this thing okay where they they literally die laughing all right is um is if he uh is if he had to pick like one enemy within his sort of mirth range right okay to fully infect okay and yep their disease of mirth made them like heedless of anything else around okay and they became immune to like inspiring presence or anything else like that they can never have those effects right yeah and he like kind of just shuts that off because they're they're not paying attention to their their commanders their leaders they're just literally dancing and mirthful and happy until they die right and then instead of instead of battle shocking right you would literally make it like uh the unit doesn't the unit cannot benefit from any of these things and is immune to battle shock because they're full of mirth okay but when they would take a battle shock test right yep then they instead suffer some number of mortal wounds as they as at that point is when they start dying laughing sure you see what i'm saying so you make it so like they're overwhelmed and happy they're infected by the joy of nergal but the joy of nergal is a double bladed is a two-edged sword right and like they don't run away they couldn't get the commandability benefit they to shut this off and instead you'd like total up how much they would lose by instead you take some number of you know d3 mortal mortal ones yeah yep yeah yeah they they don't take battle shock um but they still take a like they still do a morale functionally a morale test right on the same numbers and i would still do it like all in the same number or whatever and um and then just for every number over like what you would normally experience is fleeing uh that you take that number mortal wins yep exactly there's a couple different ways it could play out you could make it like on an x on on an x or higher but it's d3 like there's lots of different interesting ways you could build it out that would have slightly different mechanical implications right i don't know what the best i don't know what the best version of that would be i'd have to like probably write it up a few times then play test it and see what i like but sure like that feels like they're actually covered with the like they're actually getting this mirthful disease right they're so happy that they're just dying right like people are just dropping dead it's a little more complicated rule than the simple version but that's why i gave both versions of it right one is like real in flavor but weird and kind of complicated one is like dead drop simple and still cool right so you know right it's it's whatever i would be happy to one but all of it is better than what it is all of it's better than what it is and it would be really useful right this guy would go around he'd have a presence on the battlefield because like he could be dinging heroes or causing mortal wounds to units and at the same time he's helping his own guys like he wants to be close but not in the battle he would kind of be like the rear right behind your unit support dude if he was moving seven as was suggested by skatey could actually like keep up with people right um because he's not going to be running and charging he's just going to be running right uh because you're not catapulting him into units like you do with your blight kings or anymore right so to me that's the way to make him nice that seems fun and i think you'd see this dude on the table and he's still basically a 90 or 100 point hero so there you go sure there's there's there's my guy there's my new slobby bio piper and then we can see this beautiful gorgeous gorgeous sculpt on the table and i do not say that often about nergal models but this guy earns it uh if there was ever a straight nergal demon i would paint it would be this guy that's what i'll say sure all right tom you ready for your next one i am your next one tom that's right our old friends it's the zombies yes indeed a runy uh it's zombie time zombie time uh this is definitely one of the worst units in the game right now like i'll tell you what some of these i think there's argument to be had this one nope these guys are like these guys are bad they're okay bad so i'm gonna read zombies yes how do you know these are 60 points just so we're clear so they are cheap but continue how you mess up zombies sure one of the most iconic monsters in our time like of like you know death okay here we go here's your description these rotting corpses are animated by necromanic magic through those slow and clumsy they will attack their prey with single-minded tirelessness ignoring all but the most vicious wounds as they bite and tear at their unfortunate victims those they slay are raised in turn to join the ranks of the shambling horde okay yep sounds like uh like classic zombies we all know zombies we've seen the movies yeah you've seen all of the movies i've watched worm bodies so i think i've got a good beat on zombies i understand they're into romance i i get the whole thing well i mean i basically get the the the core of it yeah they're yeah they're clearly motivated by carrying flags mm-hmm because they have a standard bearer where they get plus one bravery if they're if they're carrying a banner mm-hmm yeah classic i mean that's part of that's a sort of effect of the classic kit them wanting to find representation in representation yes and and they have noisemakers where they can bang on these noisemakers and you know always uh they can always move six inches uh when they charge even you know even if uh or you know unless they're charged rolls higher because you know they're they're renowned musicians sure do you not have a champion notably surprisingly no no single zombie rises to the level of zombie champion okay let's talk about the profiles um they're a four inch move you know what cool yeah one one wound uh they have no save profile which means they save on a seven up seven up uh which yeah whatever uh according to the base rules they don't get a save that's fine 10 bravery because they're mindless cool awesome uh zombie bite one inch range one attack fives and fives no run one damage they have an ability if you have a bunch of zombies i that is a hoard of zombies you can add one two hit and wound rolls for a unit of zombies if it has 20 or more models or two if it has 40 or more models so realistically they can get to a bunch of threes and threes one you know like one attack per model but you know for like five seconds until anything attacks them but yes until anything die in bucket loads right right uh yeah at the end of the combat phase you roll a dice for each model slain by the unit on a every six plus regensis unit uh technically there is summonable as well so you can refill them with wizards um and then if there's a corpse cart within nine inches which there won't be uh they get an additional plus one to hit sure so they could be on two's and threes which is crazy that we're talking about a unit they can get to two's and threes and yet is still bad and yet it is continue because if you look at it in relationship to basically anything else in death it's competing with like skeletons right and a bunch of other things that are all in the same design space but actually have like saving throws and stuff um so there's that i think they missed the boat entirely with zombies like i think redesign tom okay i think that the design needs to be this ready uh zombies are uh on a 60 or 160 pipe plate okay going all the way the big pipe plate the maw crush a l'oreal archion pipe plate okay yep yep uh they have a horde profile i e they have a monster profile which doesn't affect a movement because there's zombies of course it doesn't slow down right um and all of what you just described of like the moving up and down of hits and wounds and all that you just do that on the profile yep on the monster profile sure because it's a single model now with like of just a horde of zombies it's literally just called horde of zombies right okay and you like and i would even like have them have a flat like 15 attacks or something okay sure sure like or more because because they're zombies yeah okay the horde of zombies this is what they do yep okay and you know all of your like and and on top of all that like okay guess what when they eat people and they add to their number just add wounds max wounds to their wound chart right yeah sure okay so they by the way there's plenty of precedent for that it's what the mega boss on maw crush it does right now he can add wounds over his wound chart right right yeah and so by a simple redesign you've like completely fixed this thing and you know what on top of all that if you want you can say and then this unit counts for as 20 models when claiming objectives or whatever right because it's just a horde of people yeah yeah 100% you add that rule on yes right and you just let people go nuts with like this mega base horde thing right um personally my only pushback on you is i'd put it on a 130 not a 160 but that's fine sure okay i i don't care um because at the end of the day at the end of the day like zombies aren't strings of 10 models holding ranks to chaff enemy calf right that's not what zombies are that's not how you've described them that's not what they are in the popular zeitgeist yep they're a horde of shambling undead that is relentless and i mean i think that this is a complete redesign from the ground up yeah i mean you have them have ultra healing when they get in and and slay models right right they they have super duper healing like that caribdis healing we just mentioned like ramped up to a million right where they're just basically gaining a wound per per thing they slay right right every model immediately raising as a zombie right um the only other thing i would push out tom the only other rule i would uh uh uh throw on here is i i like slow zombies traditionally but i also like how when zombies get close to people and like you know see some of their brain they kind of like go after them quickly like it's the old you know the zombie grab for you yeah like i'm a i'm an original yeah you know night of the living dead guy and uh you know for the most part zombies a lot of times just kind of stood around in there you know if they weren't actively on somebody like going for somebody so i think that like their little noisemaker rule or whatever right you actually let you actually give them like the 3d6 charge or something like that so that they're slow but then they just have like this explosive speed out right right where they just can like brah the big whore just yeah it's kind of shambling slowly until it and it's just it's called brains with an exclamation point yeah exactly until it gets within sort of range of the enemy and then it's just like and then they all go next and go chasing somebody right because that's that's zombies that's what they do right um so yeah i mean that feels pretty reasonable to me uh and and then i would say here we go and if you want to go one step farther sure uh every enemy attack roll that's a natural six hit does an additional damage to them because you got them in the head yeah it's headshot sure right and so they take extra damage from enemies rolling natural six can i propose a perhaps fun uh a fun defensive rule they have sure okay to represent the whole zombies are hard to bring down thing like just sort of errant attacks can't do it yeah you could make it so they could never be wounded on like wounded not hit wounded on better than a four sure sure right so if you're already wounding on fours there's no effect but if you like wound on twos it moves to fours if you went on threes it moves to fours right to represent the fact there's so much need on them you can hit that just doesn't affect them yep right you give them the the rule where they can't be wounded on anything greater than a four yeah i'm in and then you you another half of that rule is what you just said right like if you roll a six to wound you do an additional damage to them or something like that right if you feel like if you like that needs to be there yeah yeah i think that would be fun uh and then i agree with coach like i'm okay saying that like if they aren't in combat and they're within 12 inches they must charge sure yeah they want them brains they gotta get in their mind like zombies right right yeah yep i think that could be fun yeah yeah so a big like an ultra healing where they're just like chewing into people making this big this you're moving around this big base of hordes zombies they hit they make a ton of attacks they refill their numbers right they're just you're like they're dying they're going down right like zombies in zombie movies often get mowed down right right right but then like the problem is they keep making more that's what happens right yeah i'm down with that i like it okay yeah i mean so i just uh and somebody asked about like what about models that have like x number of attacks within you know whatever uh guess what when you have hundreds of zombies those attacks there's always more zombies yeah sure uh like moon hammers and decimators they don't do enough damage to quell the horde yeah and and by the way i don't care because i mean honestly moon hammers and decimators are also in the bad war scroll but not worst area and i would just fix those rules anyway so that's fine right now i agree oh and what is their points i don't care how much do they cost the reasonable amount like i'm sure we could find the right cost right because we right we'd make it the equivalent of like a horde of 40 zombies like you figure out something you're probably like in the 140 to 180 depending on how combat effective they are yeah i mean we're making we're making a monster right effectively because it's not that's right so assumingly you're in that 150 to 200 point monster range realistically right depending on exactly what abilities they have and because they're mindless you could even say something like they can't hold objectives like you can play in those spaces and that's fine like and that'll move points up and down but what we have here are just bad skeletons right yeah yep uh and if you wanted to help people out like decimators and stuff like that you could give them a dark side by the way to that 20 thing rule to that 20 person rule and just say like this horde counts as 20 models like it yeah for you know for attacks that calculate the number of models within range this horde always counts as 20 models or this horde always counts as a number of models equal to how many wounds it has sure or something like that so like if they touch the edge of it yeah sure so like if decimators are swinging these big axes lopping off the heads of just like a dozen zombies yeah then they're attacks you through the roof maybe they're really good or warp fire throwers melt the heck out of them or you know whatever like you can play in this space of going up and down as to what they're good against and what they're bad against right but yeah nonetheless turning them into a true horde of zombies would actually make them a unique and interesting thing that would have a cool and different role in the army right right so yeah uh so that's that's like they just need to fix zombies because they are this kind of iconic piece of yeah yep absolutely absolutely um they'd never by the way if they ever did this they wouldn't give us the freedom to just like here's a 130 mil base and a ton of zombies go nuts it would be like some they would make it die wrong they'd make some ridiculous diorama out of it yeah exactly and you know what i don't hate that sure i'm just saying i wouldn't mind if they if the kit was just literally like here's a bunch of rocks and here's a bunch of zombies go now what you do what you do is you make like five or six different like or like let's do this three or four different like set pieces of like little diorama pieces that can be like moved around on the base in a bunch of different ways and then a bunch of free zombies that get mixed in that are like clawing their way out of the ground or or dragging things or whatever and you mix them in and so like you end up with a completely different unit every time i love it yes yes yes yes yes okay cool let's keep going we forge ahead where's my where's my next one at there he is oh you knew he was coming much like Thanos he is inevitable the Saigur uh my only other guy indeed my only other monster pick uh and this guy was tough okay like i thought for a long time about this guy uh because you know he's bad so yep the Saigur is 140 points he's 14 wounds on a five up save he moves eight inches uh mercifully he does not have a zero to one wounds chart so that's nice uh his boulder is straight terrible and i hate even talking about it because it's one attack that hits on a four wounds on a two at neg two ren and does d six damage he can reroll his hits against wizards which is like i guess it's something and he can dispel two spells okay okay good stuff so far uh oh there's a page two that's how this one's set up uh and then he can uh that's it that's oh he can also win mine two spells yeah i said both of them already okay and he also has eight horn attacks there are fours and threes neg one one damage fantastic in melee how can you say this guy's bad how how could i do it it's almost unfathomable inconceivable uh yeah this guy's real bad uh like super duper bad so let's let's let me see if i can unpack why uh so this guy has a 44 chance to do zero or one damage in melee so he's got a coin flip to literally do one or zero damage uh by the way the good side of his damage in melee the other like 40 plus percent that brings us to the parade oh principle or whatever to 80 percent is two or three that's what gets us the rest of the way there so again he does basically no damage uh his rock i don't i mean like this might as well just say nothing it might as well say like one attack who cares why are you still reading this rend it doesn't matter how are these still words that are going into human eyeballs okay uh like even on the re-roll it's pathetic as to what it happens to do uh okay uh now he's bad like just in every way shape or form he does no damage he has no utility to speak of other than the fact i guess you could say he can unbind but like this is an army where you've got plenty of people who can unbind like it's not a problem in beast of chaos they literally have a battalion that makes every unit you have be able to unbind like every single unit can unbind so and a reminder that he he's at 140 points yes he is uh i like yeah okay and he has all the classic monster problems right again like we talked about earlier he's only one guy he has bad board control okay okay cool beans uh i think this is generally one of the most hated rules rule sets in the game around a monster for one of the most cool ideas for a monster like living artillery in beasts of chaos right uh but it's just straight garbage okay and yeah i mean that's brian has just joked to make him 30 points job's done i mean that's the problem you can't right like that literally is probably the point you need to place him at and that's just it creates a just a like that's just dumb like that's dumb okay so how do we fix this how do we fix this trash fire okay all right so oh i should state that when he unbinds by the way he does uh he the caster suffers a mortal wound and you can heal one wound sorry i didn't want to short change anything let's get it all out there okay the cyclope and i have a cygaur allows it to see the flows of magic that went across the battlefield as they tear their way through the ranks of the enemy they feast upon spells as well as the sorceress souls of those who cast them no no no they don't they don't do any of the things you just said in that description zero your your o for words okay that's number one okay so how do we make this guy good well let's start with the obvious thing which is the rock throw okay let's give him two rocks on threes and twos at neg two rend that just do a flat four damage okay and he can keep his reroll to hits against wizards all right so we're giving him one more hit and we're turning that d6 into a four and we're making him throw two rocks right that's where we're starting just flat four okay uh and we let him reroll against wizards cool beans uh now he's not auto killing characters because that does feel kind of bad like anybody who's ever taken a uh a catapult like a um uh an obr catapult to their five wound character knows that like that's not the best experience when this person just rolls in with like hey well all my catapults make like four attacks up squish that five wound hero squish that five wound hero so we'll let him do four damage and we'll give him two attacks with his boulder okay okay um his massive horns uh that's fine well well we're gonna we're gonna change the name of that because I hate that that it's just massive horns uh we're gonna change that to like massive horns and and you know flailing uh fists or something like that just to kind of represent his his total attacks okay and he's gonna have 10 of those attacks on threes and threes neg one two damage okay now we can actually kill something okay and again it'll still be it'll be a diminishing profile thing here as well okay yep we're also going to give him a second little melee attack that's just like some stompy feet right uh to just with like two attacks on threes and threes neg one two damage or something like that just to kind of represent these also a big giant monster and he can you know he can stomp into people right yep okay but again now he's actually like he can do some damage right he can throw rocks the rocks are relatively scary uh great okay fine he hits better he can re-roll against certain targets wonderful uh oh by the way I would let him re-roll against uh either wizards or any hero with uh an artifact of power since that's a thing we can do now just as a slight aside it's not like a huge additional thing but like why not you know yep um and let's talk about his abilities so if I'm gonna take a guy who like this who's like the the wizard hunter yeah in an era of very powerful spellcasters and stuff like that then he better do something really interesting right yep yep uh so but again we're not you know this isn't like corn endless spells kicking back or whatever okay but we're to explore that same territory all right and here's how we're gonna do it you ready yep okay he can unbind two spells around and he gets a plus two bonus to his unbind rolls he's like the he's like the corn guys with the brass collars yep if he unbinds successfully the enemy wizard suffers a d3 mortal wounds and he heals a d3 wounds okay yep if he doubles their casting roll okay all right yep they lose this spell which is gonna be hard he's got plus two right but he can very much punish normal casters right so like normal caches you get things off on a five or six he has the chance to do this it's not a high chance they lose the spell permanently for the rest of the game that spell is now gone yep okay and uh he broadcasts uh a neg one to cast aura okay 18 inches around him for non uh for non beast of chaos wizards sure okay so pretty big aura around him about the same range as his boulder throw right like that's why we're trying to pin them to the same range right yep so then what we've got is a pretty decent dispeller working on multiple levels right he's diminishing the enemy cast if he's within his boulder range which is where he wants to be right he's got a pretty good unbind check like plus two is a that's a good unbind right like that's that's not nothing um is it like plus four or something that some armies can get no but he's not negosh or something like that like let's keep it reasonable right he is a good unbinder and when he's unbinding he's killing the enemy wizards by the way the ones that he might have just hit for four damage with his rock who might be sitting on one wound left right right or something like that and he's now killing them when they try to cast the spells around him and healing himself back up and he's now a concentrated melee threat right right right cool beans we're good to go right um oh somebody said what about endless spells sure you could give him like a the the dispel check as well and have something interesting happen i don't i don't i didn't really think about endless spells with him could be interesting to have him be an endless spell eater um yeah that i don't i didn't contemplate that it'd be a neat utility sure you might be out like you might give him the same ability of endless spells like where if he eats an endless spell he gets a roll against he can unbind or dispel and if he dispels an endless spell with his plus two he also like he heals a bunch of wounds or something like that you know yep because he sucks up all of that magic so yeah i can see that now you've got a cool guy who's like actually there's a reason to take him especially in a high magic world right um and you know he would be very punishing to enemy wizards uh he would be um like he would be doing a lot of damage he would have the chance to knock spells off of their list completely and he would still be a competent melee threat right like he would live up to that thing he would be a threat at both range in melee and to enemy wizards in none of those is he perfect but he is an interesting piece that threatens in lots of different ways and you'd put him around like again the 180 points range like he could be back up to a reasonable monster range or he's probably like 180 or something like that yep cool there you go now he's a fun scroll right he's getting in there he has a reason to exist and uh rather than just having any old hundred other things i could have in Biscay as far cheaper they can also unbind right yeah there you go uh yeah you can like somebody said still a five plus save i'm personally of a belief that like all monsters should kind of be at a four plus save just for being monsters but no we could keep him in a five plus i'm not willing to die like i won't die on that hill like whatever four plus five plus i don't you know sure you'd bump him a few more points if you went up to four plus there you go okay okay cool all right you ready for your next one yes sir all right low ten warden of the soul ledgers that's right he was inevitable you all knew he was coming folks he was inevitable yes indeed much he really is Thanos right here him and the Saigur these are like the two most often reference guys that's why i paired them together named the warden of the soul ledgers low tan marches to war with every eideneth on glaive really um not only his own ira iraq so great is his willpower so vast is his desire to collect souls that it manifests itself in the ether sea this mystic this this mystic cloud inspires all eideneth deepkin but especially namarty who will fight with renewed vigor and low tan's presence okay and here we are again i mean obviously he's got like 50 000 attacks which all amount to nothing we don't even need to talk about them they're all just nothing right you know like they should be again like just octars attacks like octars armaments yes exactly correct that's he should have one attack profile called octars armaments yes right because he's not stabbing anybody in the eye with that bonequill just stop it like octars doing all the work he's writing stuff down that's how this goes okay that's why you train a fighting octopus so you don't have to fight got a point yeah um okay so six inch move five wounds six up save seven bravery yeah the profile of a true hero let's talk about the hero's journey let's talk about his abilities this is the hero's journey yes go i'm ready uh he has a catalog of souls and all of a bunch of words does it um doom you're gonna miss the best part the final one okay so uh the catalog of souls adds one to bravery um of friendly idk units while they're holy within 12 of this model in addition to marty reroll hit hit rolls of one with if they're with holy within 12 of this model with their 32 inch mill basis and then finally the writhing tentacles gives him a five plus after save sure okay it's a lot because they can block attacks not make there you go sure ha ha ha cool yeah oh and let's not forget the other boon he is named so he cannot take magical items sure um this is doing nothing nothing worse than nothing on the table okay let's just get that out there yep you know people we've talked about potentially in a prior version doing like an epidemias rule i don't hate that um i think it should be as simple as this um it should be a static or a bonus 21 inches yep okay yep and i think that it should um i think uh uh all idk should get plus one bravery within that area no marty unit should be battle shock immune okay just flat okay and then once uh once uh uh and we've talked to like you would suggest it at one point in time a bonus to move on the nomarty um i don't hate that i don't i don't hate giving nomarty like so you can say nomarty within this aura or battle shock immune and gain you know plus three movement yeah movement character because it just feels like they're fighting with renewed vigor okay cool right right like right that feels like they're they're energetic they're ready to go and it would also help with one of the nomarty problems which is getting them out and moving right and keeping up with the rest of them pretty speedy army right yep and then i would then i would have some benny like when this guy uh went what like uh there would be some benny for uh when a unit is killed okay yeah like like because he's actually doing the soul day the soul ledger ring right and so it needs to be something like i don't know what that is right but um and so i haven't fully thought through what this looks like right but i just know that he needs to have some benny that he hands out to all of his you know fanatical followers um when he when when they do their job it needs to not be a chart it needs to be a one-off fire and forget this is what happens in this aura yeah i mean i he just give him a command ability it's pretty straightforward okay you could do that too yeah and um like the command ability could just be one that's put on a trigger where like low tan can infuse the ether c with energy once he's once he's tallied the souls right so like if a model is like low tan can use this ability it during the combat phase when an enemy model has been slain uh what if he has then you know all the marty units within or pick a marty unit within range they gain plus my tax it could be that's right sure yep but regardless like he just needs to do something with like tallying souls or reacting to like gathering soul energy um or whatever yeah and it should be focused on the nemarty because that's one like that's what there's his description seems to to say right yep and by the way if you want to like again you can just keep the the nod to everybody else with like a big bravery buff aura around him sure that's fine like i have no issue with that like it's okay i don't know that he helps every he helps everybody yeah he's inspiring by his presence because he's right this big hero who's empowering the ether to the ether c right but like he can but his his main infusions are to triggering upon the death of an enemy yes and it's triggering on a death of an enemy because that's either he's collecting souls right and he's motivating others to collect souls yep so that's what i got for low tan i mean at the end of the day like man this guy is just oof oof like it simply doesn't get worse than him uh oh that's it like mini hobby therapy had an interesting idea here what about something along the lines of after gathering so many souls you gain a command point there's a lot of interesting things you could do there the the challenge would be you don't want to turn it into like a bookkeeping exercise where you're like literally marking down the exact number of models you slayed or something like that that's what you're trying to avoid how about this whenever a unit is destroyed within the 21 inches yeah an enemy yeah yep if it's destroyed within 21 inches roll dice on a five plus gain a command point yeah exactly what i was gonna say yes you you tie it to like an enemy unit being destroyed where he gets this big soul infusion right because the unit was wiped out and then yes you roll a dining and get a command point now that does nothing for the fact that there's no command abilities for these guys to actually like spend those grandpoints on but you know that's not here well if he had his own written command ability on there then i'll just know there would be right because then he's perfect then then you have actually something to use it on because you're he's creating his own little nice cycle right yep yep yep yeah so that's that's how i'd fix low tan but like man he just needs to be cleaned up yeah yep 100 all right so uh enemy units by the way because he's only gathering uh yeah he's gathering the enemies yeah yeah right 100% yep well because if like namarti die they they have little weak atrophied souls he can't get anything from them right okay right so i'm gonna cheat now tom okay wait a minute wait a minute that's right folks it's time to cheat i'm cheating because i'm gonna do two scrolls two two two for the price of one but they're basically the same scroll i'll move through them both quickly here we go one this is this is no this is not your last one this is your fourth one okay go uh yeah so i'm gonna kind of do like this is this this group is my fourth one here we go uh night runners uh these guys fall into the same thing as spider writers where two different people wrote their war scrolls and one group thought it was about shooting and one group thought it was about stabbing and they just didn't get together so anyways they're very similar despite writers in a lot of ways uh okay night writers seven inch move six up save four bravery these are familiar sounding numbers of of badness uh they've got esch and throwing weapons 12 inches one attack fours and fives look out for that similar to those goblin bows but a little bit more accurate no rend one damage and then they've also got a stabbing blade look out for that stabbing blade uh one inch range one attack fours and fours no rend one damage um okay so these guys are um bad let's i mean just right there i could stop and and we would understand that they're bad these guys are 80 points for 10 by the buy so these are only 20 points less than your spider writers and they don't have like some weird venom attack or something okay now uh they can run and still shoot wonderful that's exactly what i was wanting to do make sure that i can get off those sweet sweet throwing weapons at fours and fives which by the way uh let's just return to the math uh now they do have a if the unmodified hit roll for an attack made with their throwing weapons is six it's two hits instead of one uh because of that rule if all 10 of them throw it something they do an average of one damage so sounds like goblin pretty great uh yeah so um you can run and shoot and get extra hits on your thing that does one damage i love it i don't mean one damage per guy like i know they have damage one i mean literally the total of the unit's average damage is one against all this is against a four up save whenever i say these things by the way the only rule on them that's worth anything anything is slinking advanced this used to be better by the by um after armies are set up but before the first battle around begins you can move this unit up to 26 inches okay pregame moves are good right this is that rule almost kept them off the list almost yeah okay because just pregame moves are so good and so powerful on their own right but the problem is it's 2d 6 inches if they had still had their original version their original version was they could just move right if i had a guaranteed seven where i knew i was going to actually make clearance between my army and these guys then we might then then they probably wouldn't have made this list they'd be bad still very bad but at least they'd have some use but the fact that there's a lot of rules i'm going to generate that are going to clear absolutely no distance away from my army and somebody can come through blow them up and then like like a ghoul king on terror guys will just be like haha who cares i killed them now i pilot again and kill your stuff behind it because your line was not far enough out right like that's they're not serving their purpose because of that rain of 2d 6 okay all right now very quickly uh gutter runners the other side of this okay so gutter runners the the advanced version and this this hurts my soul by the way um gutter runners the advanced version of night runners these ashen is like my favorite scaven clan bar none this this was always what i stand for you know like these were the guys in more time ashen's what it's all about i hate that they're so so so so so so so so bad okay so at any rate uh here we go um seven inch move just like the other guys one higher bravery one higher save cool beans um they have two attacks with their throwing star same range fours and five still no rend one damage and then they have a punch dagger and blade that they make two attacks with on threes and fours neg one run one damage so they have kind of an okay melee profile an okay melee profile i want to drive that home okay uh you get five of these guys for 60 points okay that's right they come in fives because they're elite infantry this is definitely worth that uh this unit could run and still shoot again no wrong not why i took these guys like what are you doing uh and again they have the sixes or double taps thing i do not care these guys instead can ambush by the way but not like good ambush where they can start off the table and you know do good things like heart renders or something instead you take them off the battlefield and then if they have to come in at the end of your first movement phase and they have to be wholly within six inches the edge of the battlefield nine inch away from enemy units so they have literally the worst version of this right the worst version okay so again these guys do like that their their melee is exactly or sorry their their range is exactly the same again they do one damage on average at range because five of these guys has the same number of attacks you know because they make two each uh so these guys are just bad uh so i went ahead and uh took the liberty of just writing new scrolls for these guys here we go here's my nice version of these uh i i'm suspect i'm gonna have to zoom in let's see if we can get that big enough to where i can actually see what the heck we're doing here yeah there we go that'll work i guess okay so i tried to keep them kind of in the same range like you know live up to their same purpose but make them useful okay yeah yep so i use the like scroll builder tool to tool to do this all right so first of all the throwing star the throwing weapons i put them on fours and threes no rend one this is the night runners fours and threes no rend one damage okay so kind of an interesting slightly better than than nothing shooting attack and then they're stabbing blades let's give them two attacks because they're they're all dual wielding like every one of these models in the kit is dual wielding or has two things in their hands or whatever so let's call that just standard two attacks fours and fours no rend one damage right but let's give them poisoned weapons if the unmodified hit roll for an attack made with an eshing throwing weapon or stabbing or stabbing blades both is a six that attack automatically wounds do not make a wound roll but the enemy makes a save roll as normal so you just get to skip the wound roll small bonus not a mortal wound small bonus slinking advance after armies are set up but before the first battle round begins this unit may make a normal move it may not run and then nimble dodge roll a time roll a dice each time you allocate a wound or mortal wound to this model on a six plus the wound is negated right because they're ninjas right right right make sense they can jump i don't have run and shoot or retreat and shoot or run and charge or retreat and charge or anything on here because i'm assuming that when i rewrote these war scrolls i rewrote the other eshing stuff to just have abilities to grant that out right the assassins or the allegiance ability or something just grants that ability instead of the dumb stuff it does now right i'm assuming that i'm i've ground upping eshin here and and like they'll have synergies that would make them do that retreat and charge run and still shoot and charge the things they should be doing as super cool ninja rats right yeah make sense okay uh all right uh all right all right checky all uh eternal conflag internal conflag it's hard to say internal conflagration conflagration there we go sorry that's how you would say that yeah the appropriate pronunciation is internal conflagration sure conflagration uh by the way you should never check with me on pronunciations i'm terrible at pronunciations but conflagrate conflagration okay anyways here's my gutter runners remake uh okay so gutter runners are elite infantry right these are like first of all there's a little change to the gutter runners gutter runners don't have a champion normally for like no reason i can perceive the base war scroll just doesn't have a champion like night runners do night runners have a champion gutter runners don't i do not know what this why like it makes no sense to me at any rate here we go so first of all all their attacks now have rend so we're going two attacks with their throwing stars just like they had but now fours and threes instead of fours and fives neg one rend one damage punch dagger and blade two attacks threes like elite infantry should have neg one rend one damage they're still like you know whatever poison weapons these guys have the traditional mortal wound on a six to hit roll because they have the good poison right so if they roll a six to hit with either their shooting weapon or their melee weapons they do a mortal wound they get a real infiltration ambush rule right where they're like they you know you can set them up in reserve and they have to show up by the bottom around three and they can appear anywhere you know standard good infiltrators if an ogre and his cats can do this what i'm describing okay and those cats are dirt cheap right like one of the most efficient battalions in the game is a skull which is like an ogre and a horde of cats okay yeah if uh if they can do that if they can be off the board until any time in three right and end up and just pop up anywhere on the board nine inches away from an enemy then so can the sneakiest of sneaky ninja rats right right and then their their nimble dodge is on a five plus matches they're safe right so the night runners are six up six up the gutter runners are five up five up right sure and there you go like that's cool elite infantry they have interesting defense they both have some kind of poison they both have like they're they're a range and their melee both do something now right yeah and there you go like easy right it's like it it it makes eschen playable and one would assume by the way that like there would be synergies where you could run and charge or shoot run and shoot or charge and retreat and shoot or charge just like you would expect a bunch of ninjas to do if they had their their koga gawa ninja team leader or whatever you know like i if they had their i'm trying to remember what it was called ninja scroll but yes uh if they had that that dude up front be like you know then they could all do the thing right like that would be that would be it all right yeah i wanted to actually make scrolls for these because that's how invested i am in this clan eschen book win fix this fix this abomination of this dangler part of one of the one of the now better armies out there i think scaven is a solidly great army right now it's not too good not too bad it's full of lots of fun options it just has this huge goiter and it's called clan eschen okay uh nito marito uh and yes the i didn't do the assassin because i don't think he's like one of the worst world scrolls in the game but he would follow suit like his nimble dodge would be four up four up and blah blah blah of course you know pretty straightforward all right tom time for your controversial pick you're ready for the last two here we go tom this is the one you're gonna i suspect have to defend against lots of other things because there's a lot of bad war scrolls in this game the avatar of cain so this is the standalone statue like if you build the blood rack shrine i had to search around for this war scroll this is not easy to find by the way in an obvious download place because you can't buy this guy individually you can only get in the kit uh at any rate okay tom tell us why this thing is so bad well let's start by saying in order to build him you have to build a blood rack shrine sure but again that doesn't count hold on you've already sure you've already failed by building him sure um so let's talk about okay by the way this guy was originally 180 points i would just point that out when he came out which is that is truly madness he is currently 140 okay go ahead tom he is priced identically to the cygore and we're gonna talk about that comparison here in a minute he has a nine inch move nine wounds on a four plus save as opposed to the cygores 14 wounds on a five plus um he has a 10 bravery he has 10 i'm sorry six range attacks at 10 inches and threes and threes neg one one damage he has four sort of cane attacks at threes and threes neg two rend three damage wow look at all that damage i mean this is one of the only people we've talked about tonight that has neg two rend oh the cygore has it no the shooting attack sure i mean it's not it's not common to see neg two rend in our stuff but yeah okay yeah okay so but here's where the copy it comes in all right i'm ready if uh let's talk about animated first so here's the base rule for animated he cannot move he cannot shoot he cannot be selected to fight unless a friendly daughters of cane priest uses the wrath of canine prayer to animate him in your proceeding hero phase even if he has not been animated he's still treated as a model in your army with the exception that enemies can ignore him on the movement sure um and they do not have to retreat if they want to move but they can still attack him okay he can't fight back and he can't fight back he can't be selected for combat and he is a idol and he also has idol worship he gives plus one bravery to daughters of cane units within seven inches that that daughters of cane unit for a set like seven inch buff by the way does not stack with the shrines right because the same rule so base this guy never moves off your starting line setup unless you pray to activate him unless you roll a three plus every turn yes correct so i don't care what any of his numbers are you cut a third off because you're going to fail prayers sure on a one or a two oh by the way so so let's let's let's put this in mathematical terms real quick okay right so a prayer on a three up because you're not burning your iron circle person on this like let's wait that's not happening your iron circle is going to catechism of murder every time get out of here okay yep so what are so the statistical odds of that are obviously like you have a 66 repeating you know percent change success right so how does that compare to spell casting okay so spell casting that is the same as between a six and a seven is where that falls it's a little bit harder to cast than a spell that's a six it's a little bit easier to cast than a spell that's a seven and i think people have a better anchor on that kind of stuff right of how often you fail spells um because so to be clear this guy does nothing if you fail that cast he cannot attack back if he is being attacked right until round three in round three he does wake up automatically but yes he wakes up automatically in round three if the priest are killed out he doesn't activate correct he just sits there in round one and two yes right so he has a chance so like we were hounding on giants for failing charges on a one in six yeah they have about it they have about a 16 percent chance to just fail any charge yes this guy counting the normal ops i didn't roll the dice number yes this guy not only fails every charge on a two and six during those first turn he fails to move he fails to attack he fails to do anything meaningful right as you know as ghost button said you can't afford in this game to have anything simply do nothing right for a round or two and so just his unreliability whips him off the table from viability to me like i get it and i said you're gonna have to defend this one because like i think he's super bad i'm just not sure if he's bottom 10 but but he's what other unit in the game does nothing zero i get it it doesn't like it doesn't matter about your profile your profile is zero yeah i understand sure and like the relevant part here is it's not just the failure of the prayers right which is like highly probabilistically likely a one third chance is very high okay of doing nothing yeah yeah the so it's not just that it's that we're talking about it you know the fact that um that like you have a pretty limited number of prayers you can actually punch out in most daughters armies and those slots are usually taken like there's usually stuff you're wanting to do with those prayers you don't often have a lot of additional prayers where you're just like oh and also i'll animate that random statue over there so it does something right and then even if you're making that choice with your limited resource you then still have a chance to fail you can almost get 10 canari for his price sure sure okay um and he's also has all of the problems of a monster yeah because he's a single dude and he's roaming around he's on a small day so he's just not doing anything a third of the time during those early turns right and by the way when you like okay yeah in turn three he activates automatically and then a cool story bro your clerics are probably dead by then so it's a good thing that he's auto activating sure and and you know he's pretty far behind in the combat like he's nowhere near the front lines if you've even lost one activation with him sure sure yeah okay and um and he only has nine wounds on a four up save yeah well then also let's try out a trot out his damage profile because you know we talked about that neg two rent three damage short it is admittedly it is a little bit more it's a little bit more than a cygore what like in melee during during rounds one and two he is doing on average half a damage more with his ranged attacks yes and he's doing approximately like 1.1 so here's here's the math yeah here's the math he has a 16 chance to do zero okay against this against a four up save oh but and that's by the way that's not if he's not activated yeah i'm assuming he's activated of course so you gotta cut all these by 66 or by um 33 percent you gotta remove a 33 off of all these values i'm gonna i'm gonna give me the stats for him activated but yes if he's active 16 percent chance he does zero damage 37 percent chance he does three 33 percent chance he does six that's that's the bulk of your your damage profile there so he's hitting for about three maybe six damage that's kind of the middle of the area there because basically it's it has to go in threes because that's right right right yeah so uh yes like it's challenging it's challenging i mean like i wasn't a believer in this tom but yeah it's pretty bad like pretty bad he let's reiterate this he does nothing in rounds one and two sure so fix him let's fix him let's make him nice tom how do we make him nice uh this is the empowered avatar of kane oh okay got it i was gonna say eliminated from the book okay got it because you didn't need to be there but no go ahead no he's the empowered avatar of kane um which means that he's always uh he's always animated yeah we just cut all of those all of those rules are just gone yes okay um and you can leave the animated by the way on the shrines sure because they actually wake up the one on the back of their shrines sure it's not it's not out and walking around yes right right like because of that thing very question tom how did that thing get to the fight was there literally behind it like wake up and then it walks in the way something stops and she's like wake up nothing happened she's like ow i took a mortal wound because remember they when they fail prayers it hurts them right all right so it's like look you stupid rock synthia you're on avatar duty again oh man how many hags died just getting one of these things to the battlefield by rolling ones because like so the key is like the shrines and like as if all this wasn't bad enough let's like i want to bring this loop to close because before we fix it the one ability that it has that's not damage which by the way this army doesn't really need damage sure yeah it's got damage and coming out and just oodles and oodles of it everywhere right but the one utility this thing fix it or brings is the plus one bravery which is great utility but it doesn't stack with the shrines right because the reason it's so useful by the buy whereas normally i would write that off as a who cares in daughters it's really impactful because mind razor is really dependent on you having higher bravery than an enemy right right so you really need that plus one as you need as much bravery buffing as you can and so um so here's how you do this um you uh you make it so that you don't have to activate him no yeah slam dunk he's he's already he's awake he got to the fight somehow he's awake and then you ready for this i'm ready man um uh all of kane okay uh add one to the bravery characteristic of friendly daughters of kane models that are within seven inches of this uh this empowered avatar of kane sure so it's so it does stack with the other one right yeah and so suddenly there's a function to this sure i would also love his sword attacks to six as well by the way no i wouldn't leave it at four it's fine like it's not it's not stellar like i would love six but then you got to up the points i that's i'm not sure that's a bad thing let me just say that sure and that's fine like 140 points is pretty crowded in the in the dock army right now that's a crowded space right like yeah there are a number of ways to fix him it's just he needs to have a function and again it's like if he's just bringing damage that's just not a lot in this army he doesn't have to try to push him up to have like where you can actually do something in combat basically because what i'm pushing out sure sure and that's fine um i like the neg to rent like again um or um uh you could call this in sold avatar of kane sure and make him a hero oh that's neat that's a neat idea i see i like that along with your all your your all worship thing i think you've got an interesting take there um and suddenly it becomes like enough that you need to consider like am i trying to stack bravery you you probably still won't be able to get higher than the bravery 10 that a bunch of stuff has probably but it could make a difference you know and then suddenly if you could give him an item maybe you're in a space where it's he's usable sure uh may i suggest a small interesting additional utility buffed him i mean like it maybe if he's not a hero maybe here's another option okay sure so i got an idea oh go ahead go with your idea i'll wait this is your scroll yeah uh step frenzy up one stage horrendous oh like he can push the blood rights table up is what you're saying well yeah you just say like um like uh inspire frenzy and yeah that's where i was gonna go but let me tell you how i was gonna do it you're ready okay here's like yes that's exactly where i was going but but let me let me tell you what i was gonna trigger it off of uh daughters of kane kind of like blood not sure if you've heard about that it's a thing they like they like they love it they like reveling at it fighting in it you know rolling around in it uh like a dog who finds something stinky in the yard but they're like they're like that with blood and he happens to have this missile attack called torrent of burning blood okay sure so like here's here's here's here's his thing if he hits a unit with his torrent of burning blood just hits okay then uh any attacks made against that unit like your friendly units are treated as one step higher on the blood rights table sure that's how you push them up because they're already like there's a lot of blood they're into it you know i mean it's it's more blood is being spilled right yep they're in the shower they're in the spray zone they're in the spray zone exactly it's like double dare you're in the spray zone yeah exactly you're in a you're in a concert yes exactly um the like then that'd be cool we're like oh neat okay so like then there's this neat synergy that's happening where he's moving up he's automatically animated he's adding to their bravery by them being near him right so he's helping you be more mind-raiser-y and when he then spits on them then you go for like if it's round two when you theoretically engage then all of a sudden you're treating us round threes and you're getting the the good you know re-rolls right yep yeah cool okay right on so i really think he's in the bottom 10 because there's simply no other unit in the game that does nothing for any portion of the game sure barring other units being in the game being on the table uh yeah no it's it's you're not wrong like there is no other unit that acts like this yes and and again it's not even like a small chance of doing nothing yeah yeah it's significant even like even if again like that's if those units aren't there for whatever reason then then it does nothing but even if they are there it's still gonna fail on a 33 chance at the time right right yep yeah agreed okay uh let's do my last scroll this is gonna be my i have to defend it when you're ready yep all right he's got a pretty picture pretty picture for the night quest or okay so let's talk about the night quest or uh and i'll openly admit like i probably am a bit i went back and forth on this fifth slot a lot of times there was a lot of other things slotted in here chaos warhounds were slotted in here for a little while uh the herald on blood throne was slotted in here for a little while okay uh those are all close competitors and if somebody wanted to say i think those are in the bottom 10 i'm not sure i'd argue you out of it but let me talk about this guy nonetheless night quest or night's quest or a vow to stand a shield between the denizens of the mortal realms and the depredations of chaos it falls to these heroes to undertake great quests in sigmar's name they adventure across the realms and beyond to slay terrible enemies or recover arcane artifacts whose power can turn the tides of war okay uh so that sounds like these guys are these these are these are big awesome heroes right and as a point of fact like night questors and soulbound are amazing and will kick your teeth right down your throat and back out the other side okay uh in the storm cast army these guys are completely useless i cannot picture why you would ever put this in a list and he's bad even compared to most heroes let me walk you through like so defensive wise he seems fine that almost feels like he could have his purpose because he's like five inch move five wounds on a three up reroll will save because of his shield right no that's pretty good defense uh his challenge ability is stupid okay um like whatever he can pilot an extra three inches uh but only with heroes and he has to go to that hero and so on and so forth and whatever and his thunder charge strike you had one to the damage of the night questers warblade if the wound roll was six or more okay uh again four attacks threes and threes neg one one damage it will not surprise you to learn this guy to learn that this guy's average damage is in fact one so there we go so the great hero who's the bulwark against chaos okay doesn't average of one damage uh i saw some people mention that like he sounds kind of like the exalted warrior all the exalted heroes of chaos i did i went through all the exalted heroes all the different like aspiring deathbringers and exalted heroes and exalted deathbringer and whatever all that nonsense they're all better as far as like either because they have command abilities or could do more damage every one of them beat him out on that kind of stuff like they were all in my in my picks as well but some of them have like really good command abilities or just stuff so this guy is a completely utility free hero right he has no utility he is a solo operator that's his idea right yep he is a solo operator that marches up into a fight and does one damage against like by the way that's against four up saves but he's a hero fighter right hero fighters don't have oftentimes just a regular four up save and that's it right i mean he rerolls hits he rerolls fails hits against enemy heroes yes if he does this little challenge thing correct but my point is is that like the by the way that doesn't move his damage that much but yes um like oftentimes heroes have three up saves or even better my heroes often have three up two up saves rerolling extra feel no pains like we've talked about crappy heroes tonight low tan's got a five up slobby bio piper has a five up he's doing less than one damage against these guys mathematically okay when he can't take down slobby bio piper all right like that's not a great day for him for this for this ultimate storm cast hero like this guy just fails completely at his job and he's one of the the most sad heroes in the game it's a shame because he is like by the way an amazing model i super love this dude i mean proof in the pudding they did a whole the like special paint comp at golden demon every year at at the main golden demon there's a special category that where everybody has to paint the exact same figure and you cannot modify it in any way and this was the figure from two years ago they're three years ago now because it's a great help yes right beautiful open pose beautiful like classic storm cast look like the hero just like him standing there with his cape blowing in the wind right uh yeah but he doesn't do anything right so poor guy poor guy um the skates says is he worse damaged than mr d6 attacks somehow he's he's yeah like the he does that guy was close i had a fight with him another guy i know exactly you're talking about but yes that guy can do more things for various reasons um okay uh the um the how do we fix this guy simple we make him into what he should have been right uh we make him into a hero that actually kicks people's teeth in right like he's still a five wound hero on a five inch move with a three up save that's re-rollable great i'm down with all of that that's all fine i'll even keep the heroic challenge ability okay as silly as it is but like i get it that's his point he's a hero slayer right yeah um we're just gonna we're just gonna we're just gonna up his his fighting capability some okay um the first thing we're gonna do is we're gonna move his rend up to neg two and we're gonna move his damage up to two that's just that's just baseline that's where we're starting out okay and we're gonna put him up at six attacks like let's give this guy a profile right so six attacks uh uh threes and threes neg two two damage okay yeah as michael just said maybe reforge him indeed okay uh we're gonna get rid of that dumb thunder charge strike rule because i hate stuff like that like weird added damage on a six to wound where it splits out like no no no no no you hear you hear just okay go ahead and go with your suggestion uh you can modify that really easily give me your modification i want to hear what what yours on natural six to wound do a mortal wound in addition to the to the normal uh damage yeah i was gonna give him a d three on a six to wound because it's on the wound oh okay yeah there you go yeah exactly correct like i was just gonna have him kick a d three mortals in addition to any in addition to any other damage he would do yep yep that that'll resolve it and i'll actually make him a hero dollar yes 100 because he'll do a couple damage two to three maybe might get through and then if he rolls any of those sixes he that could push him into the five damage and kill you know solo heroes now let me give you the last ability you're ready for this tom here's here's where we're gonna get nuts i'm gonna write a new rule that i don't think i've seen anybody else have uh but here we go uh since since they mentioned it up above right okay so it's it's he's gonna be called like bearer of legends or something right and if you select this hero to be in your army he may always carry an additional artifact of power in addition to the normal artifacts of power you get assigned for your list and it comes off the standard storm cast table he can always have an artifact because he is the big damn hero and he has cool right to gear yeah right but he's a dnd hero in this world right yeah yes yeah what you say is you just say that he can uh he can uh choose a bonus uh he can choose a bonus artifact off of the you know storm cast whatever yeah i don't remember all their different tables because they have like they have tables upon tables upon tables magic horns and magic banners and magic lanterns and magic everything and obviously he's not taking any of that stuff right he's just taking one off the basic like storm cast heroes list yeah right and and there we go like that's an offensive threat he fits he he works like this solo operator he's not meant to inspire anybody he doesn't have a command ability he's not a utility guy he's a dude who you put in your army to go march out alone and he goes out and he slays enemy heroes right he's there to do that stuff yep there you go nice and and by the way that all those changes he'd probably be like 120 point hero right like he'd go up like 20 points because he's not that like he's still marching around the battlefield and he has to still get stuck in and he's still okay and most of his stuff is still only against heroes which means like with a five-inch move of a dude walking anybody with brains in their head just chaps him with anything else right right so yeah he's still not that good but just there you go like that's that actually would make him a potent threat so yep there you go i'm in cool that's all our worst scrolls so those are our 10 worst scrolls uh there you go uh do you have your own drop them down in the comments i would love to hear what you all think we missed there's a live i've mentioned a lot of other near competitors that were like close uh wild riders was another one i went back and forth on for a while regularly there's color one i went back and forth on for a while like boy oh boy chaos warhounds i mentioned those boy they those were in the mix for a while razor gores i don't even know what that guy's purpose is in the universe um there was lots of near misses that like that that are so close i was just like ultimately i said eh right uh so there you go but i'd love to hear what yours are drop them down in the comments uh i hope everybody has a wonderful holiday wherever you are uh if you if you're celebrate christmas then i hope you have a great christmas i hope the last if you don't and this isn't a holiday this is a holiday period for a lot of people so if you're celebrating any of those holidays i hope it's really good for you uh if not if you celebrate none of that crap then i just hope you have a great last week of 2020 this has been a rough year uh we'll be back to end out the year next week with our predictions for 2021 next week will be our annual new year's predictathon uh where we where we strap on the old take off the santa hats put on the tin foil hats and get down into what we think is coming in 2021 so wherever you are whatever you celebrate i hope you celebrate it well uh even if you're not with family i know a lot of people aren't you know are probably wisely not getting together with their family this year that's the smart choice be responsible be safe uh and i hope everybody is safe and happy and has a a wonderful end to a all in all kind of crappy year by kind i mean darn crappy year and uh let's pivot into a better 2021 so thank you so much don't forget to hit like on the way out subscribe if you haven't already but as always thank you so much everybody for watching this one and as always we'll see you next wednesday