 Good day, folks. Hello, Tyler. Morning. Welcome, fellow co-chair. Congratulations. Thank you. Let's see. I'm going to paste the. Meeting notes. Let's see what we have. July 11th. And it was about a month ago for the last one. With holidays and other things going on. So. Folks could drop your names into. The meeting notes and any agenda items you have. Give it a couple of minutes and. For anyone else to join. Yeah. All right. Let's get started. Okay. So I guess I can share my screen actually. Okay. So we're able to complete. Elections finally. And thanks for. Putting yourselves forward and. Going through the process. Final results. So for the service provider. Representative Tom. Good one. From Vodafone. Tom. Congratulations. Thank you. Good afternoon. I'm the Vodafone. Vodafone. The Vodafone. So this is representing. Vendors. And. That were equipment providers and. Anyone creating CNS. Victor. From Samsung. And then the. C. N. C. F. Kubernetes community. Go chair. Taylor. Carpenter. That's me. So our term. I would have started earlier in the year, We've adjusted the terms to 1st of July through June 30, 2023. So it's a one-year term. Next year we'll try to get it going early enough so that we can end at those times. All right. So a few events. Folks are probably aware of most of these. Cube con and a in October. Currently planning on going to that myself. We'll see how things are going as far as. COVID spikes and all of that for in person events, but. If it's looking good, then. I plan on being there. Anyone else. On the call plan on being. Cube con. In person. Probably I will go. I'm not sure. I'm not quite as potentially not sure yet. Yeah. I'm unlikely to be there personally. It's difficult to plan these sort of things right now. Right. Well, we do have. The co-located cognitive. Telco day. Even. Planned. The CFPs are open. Need to try to get folks to submit on that. Hopefully have another successful. Event. We'll provide both remote and in person. Another thing that needs to happen is sponsorship. So if anyone. Your company's interested or. Whatever you want to help. And. The ONES. There's, I guess it's still open right now through the 29th for. Submissions. And there are some panels. I don't know. Who all is. Been looking at the different things there. But there's a. A panel that may be talking on for. Regarding. These CNCF. Telco initiatives. Including the working group, I'd say, but primarily around the CNF certification. And Annika. I know that's one of them. I don't know if there's any other. Interesting panels or talks that are planned. That would be something of note that we want to write down here. I think that's a better insight. Sorry. You're referring to the, are you referring to the specific. The specific. Conformance CNF conformance. That, that panel would be one of them, but is there anything else? Like. I wish. I mean, I know we could maybe post a link to the. The whole list, but yeah, sure. Let me do that. Yeah. I think specific that we want to call out. That one was one that I was thinking of, but anything else. Yeah, I've actually myself taking some, you know, I'll be having some conversations as we can, you know, internally here in my company, just to figure out whether or not we're attending. So I haven't been on top of this too much either until just recently, there's some things that caught my attention, but let me find the link and I'll share that on the chat here. Okay. Sounds good and drop it in the meeting notes as well. All right. So does anyone have anything else? I don't see anything written out on the agenda. Well, I wouldn't mind adding something to the agenda. Taylor. Or maybe just bring it up for discussion here. I with, with the new newly elected. I'm wondering if, you know, and again, I don't want to preempt anything. You guys are already planning. So I mean, one of the things that would be interesting is just kind of, you know, a year's ended in terms of, you know, the chair and co-chairs, what are our thinking going forward and changes that we want to propose and ways of working goals, et cetera. So just curious that may not be something we do today, but maybe just curious to hear from you and Victor and Tom. If we're proceeding as how we have been doing things, or if we have any suggestions for how it might change our way of working. Good question. I think the CNS education program's got to be the main focus. It seems to be a flagship thing. I agree with. Remember who it was that said it on the, on the mailing list about making sure that we retain and strengthen the relationships with things like that. Yeah. Yeah. Appreciate that Tom. I would also, I agree. I think, you know, certainly seeing the CNCS, CNF conformance program is certainly focused. I have some, you know, questions, I guess, still on ways of working around, you know, in the past, we have submitted, you know, we kind of open up to user stories and use cases. And I'm guilty as charged, but I, you know, I have submitted use cases and use stories. And really not figured out how to take it from there to the next step, which is really, you know, a discussion around best practices. And I mean, I obviously know I could go away and I could write some best practices and air them with this group. But I don't know if there's a better way to do it where you're more engaged, you know, several people are engaged in developing those together rather than just kind of. Coming and presenting it and hoping someone likes it, gives us a thumbs up. So again, I don't expect anyone to answer those today. Just give some food for thought, maybe. Yeah. You mentioned a good value point. I guess one of the. Things that we explore. All this last year. Was using of discussions, I guess. Using that. We get more feedback compared with the feedback that we receive and the submitting use cases and best practices. So I don't know if. Following or like. Encouraging to use more. Something more informal or something more light. In that way. Could be. Could increase the collaboration or something like, I don't know, like. Definitely we have to do. To encourage others to participate and. Make easier the. The collaboration. One of the. Thanks. That's been suggested as. Around. I guess the process for getting things. Through. Pull requests. Quicker. And. We may have had some of the items. Where it takes. You know, more people than are actually. Working. Or willing to put in the time right now. And. If we can make some adjustments on that. Could help too. But. Perse. I guess like. Kind of related that. And what I'd like to say is. Pretty. Straight forward. More. More best practices. More. More best practices actually published. Robbie had put a. Skeleton of. A document that would list them. So how do we. How do we actually get a lot of the. Content. That we already have written. It's not. Coming right brand new. Content that's already there. Like around. The least. Privilege principles. There's a large amount of content that we actually have in a. A document. Tied in with working group. I mean, it was directly related. So. I don't. Know if it means something in related to getting the content into the format that we already have. Or if. That is maybe. There's a problem with. The process and, and the. Requirements. To actually get it to a point where we're willing to publish something. On the. Use cases. And user stories. We're able to put a lot more of those forward. Probably because the requirements on. The amount of information about them. Was lower. And our best practice. Template is. Pretty large. Not to say that those things aren't important, but like. If we want to. Move things forward, then we may need to reexamine. Anyways, but I would like to get the best practice. More best practices actually put out. And probably. From a. A working group standpoint. And maybe this can be with co-chairs. Looking at. The CNF certification. And what's there. And what. That relates back to stuff we've already been talking about. We already have content and try to get best practices out of that. Actually published. So people are asking about these things. So, I guess. My help. It's not already being done. Is. Almost have a mission. Statement for working group. So. We show the best practices are useful for people who are. Another thing. CNFs that will get certified by the. Certification program or. Developers who are. Looking to learn. Stuff. The exam. Some of us have been. Trying to. The structure around. The content we're producing. I don't mean document structuring. Like. Why we're doing it structure. And. So. It's not just. Let's practice for the sake of it. I think I would help. Or is it. What was the last thing. Your voice kind of. Was a little fuzzy for me. I was just wondering if that. Kind of. Rational for what we're doing. The. The content. The content. I don't mean document structuring. Why we're doing it structure. So it's not just. Let's practice for the sake of it. I think I would help. Or is it would exist. And what was the last thing. Your voice kind of. Was a little fuzzy for me. I think it's. Rational for what we're doing. The mission statement or whatever you want to call it. Does that really exist. So. Yeah. Yeah, super clear. Re-examining the mission statement. Yeah. Something. I'm happy to do. Take a look at that. So. I need to get back into the detail of all of this. Yeah. I mean a lot of this is. We've kind of been going down the. The same general path. And it's continued to. Get a little bit, a little bit more specific. I'm trying to look. Oh, I'm in governance. That's why I'm having a hard time. Whereas. Is there a mission statement. Charter. Here we go. Like this. Yeah. In the scope sections, maybe one thing. You're doing the. What. How will they help. But. Where is. Is there a mission statement. Charter. Here we go. I guess. Yeah. I think that in the scope sections, maybe one. Think you're rather than a mission state. Yeah. How, how are we going to achieve that mission? Or rather. How will they help that? Yeah. Something. Okay. I love it. Because I think, I think the, the link with the CNF. It's quite clear. I think the link with other. SIGs. And. Times over the corner. Is less clear. Or how we could achieve that. I think any of this is good stuff for trying to do with the mission is and tied in what, what we've talked about. And it relates to the CNF certification. The bigger question is. What are people going to be willing to help with. And how do we motivate for the specific areas. Yeah. What, you know, what's more likely is that people are willing to. Talk about metrics and light papers. And they don't want to. You know, work on. On this sort of thing. Anymore. Yeah. Okay. We need to switch and focus. Taylor Taylor at the risk. You know, I don't know, again, just kind of time back to what I was saying earlier. And I don't know if it's just me. So again, by all means, if anyone has a different opinion, please let me know. Okay. One thing that I think still is helpful is just to, I think this page is useful, but I think it, it's also for those of us who may, you know, not be clear from, you know, how we are achieving our goals, right? Let's say, if we just for the second say that achieving our goal would be to be generating or publishing, you know, best practices. It's not always clear where the work begins. Where does the work begin? Does it work begin with a use case, a user story? What happens after that? Where does, you know, I guess I just sometimes lack the view of how do we go from start to finish? Because then that kind of makes it more obvious in terms of how, you know, what kind of effort any individual will have to make in this work. So for example, all right, use cases, there's been, you know, generated or use cases, user stories. All right, what's next? Is it, because it can feel a bit, you know, lonely for lack of a better term, you know, I write the use cases, I write the use, use the stories, I write the best practices, I bring them to the group, I ask you to review them. That's one way to do it. And I don't know if that's the optimal path or if there's something else, which says, once you've done that, then, you know, you should be raising your hand asking for people who want to work together in terms of drafting best practices or writing a white paper or whatever it might be. So I'm not sure if that's clear, but just trying to, to elaborate a little bit, you know, from someone who would like to be helping form, formulate some best practices specifically around things like state or state for CNFs or state, you know, then, then I would, it's not clear to me how I proceed. Okay, good questions, comments. I think we actually address that in the past. I don't know, but I presume that it's probably a recorded call. But the, I don't know what was documented around it. So related would be this contributing document. So what are the different, you know, different things that tie into the end goal. As far as actually saying here is step one and here's the last step. I don't know if we have a document. I feel like we may have a document or it may be written out in the meeting notes further down or if we have an archive version that actually went through what you're saying like here is the steps. I think one of the things in the other, other markdown was talking about brainstorming and ideas and what are the types of basically building for the context. So you want the ideas on that. User stories and use cases are probably a good place to go from that, that high level like here's a user story or use case name and you just say in this type of scenario now you actually need to read it out. And then you're probably going to end up with, well, do we have all the definitions around those things? And then eventually when you have the use case and user story what you can look at, well, what are the different problems that we're looking at in that if you break down the individual pieces and how can we deal with each of those. That's where the best practices would come from. I'm saying this in order because that's what you were talking about and we can definitely write it out that way. The reality is no one always starts at step one and goes forward. You may already have an idea in your part way in so you're going to go, I already know some best practices at work in this other use case. Do they, where do they apply? Rather than coming up with them from scratch, let's try to figure out some new ones because we have experience in other areas. But writing out the different, you know, steps all the way through Oliver so that people can see here's how it ties together. Sounds helpful. And then wherever someone wants to contribute, they can jump in. So we may already have a bunch of use cases and someone wants to focus on let's expand the glossary to make sure we're covering some of the terms in there or maybe takes some from the existing definitions of glossaries that are written up and merge it into a larger one. That's totally fine in my mind. What I don't want to do is force everybody to work on step one. If they have no passion about it and they have contributions that they can add at step five. That said, we need to list the steps so that everybody can jump in at wherever they think they can help. This somewhat, just this page is somewhat listing. I mean, if, you know, general improvements could be pushed to the last if you're going to number these. So we may do a gap analysis and general improvements come after your, if you're looking at, you're going to keep doing that at the end. So you say, here are these practices and they applied to these use cases. We have the definitions about how, you know, what they mean and how to use them. And then as you're moving forward to your, you know, we may do a gap analysis before it goes forward. If you're without thinking about that. Well, I guess I should say, even if you're going into thinking about it before production, you're probably thinking about what would happen in production. So it's a similar thing. You're going to implement something. You're going to put it out there. You're going to examine it and see, you know, did it work or do we need to make changes? And then we're going to go back. So what are the other practices to. Make the gaps. So just a curiosity. Taylor's. So is this, we're basically saying that if I'm looking at this contributing.md document. When it says what to contribute, you know, you can contribute a best practice. So are you, and to your point, you're saying you don't necessarily want to force everyone to start at step one, if you're somewhere else. So are you suggesting that if I, if I think I have a best practice, I can just start straight in and saying, here's, here's the best practice, I think that I'd like to submit. And there's no real, I mean, if I look at that template, you know, you have, or we have, I should say, you know, the, the user stories is optional. So I'm not required to provide a work, you know, any context. I can just say, here's, you know, here's a good, what I think is a good working best practice. How does that, you know, I guess I'm just trying to understand how does that, what is the criteria for that to be considered as a best practice versus something else that there's more meat or more, you know, context provided for it. Do you understand what I mean? In other words, I'm just curious. I mean, I may have a good idea, but it may not have a lot of underlying support. Sure. So I'll try to answer those several questions. Someone could go right to saying, I have a best practice. So they try to think of another one than the one that we published. The non-root is what came to my mind, but not using privilege mode for your containers, you know, so they go, this is a best practice. Where is that coming from? It's not out of the air. We're not talking about people just making up stuff. That's fine if someone wants to make up something nobody's heard of. They'll still need to communicate why they think it's a best practice. So that goes into what is the acceptance criteria. So the template and I believe the process version have stuff listed here. Like what is required. So we can come and adjust this, you know, talk about it as a group and everything and say if we think differently. So a prover. So what is this? Implementable. So someone comes up with some idea, but maybe Kubernetes doesn't even have some feature or functionality currently that works with it. It's fine, but I wouldn't call it a best practice if it's not implementable on Kubernetes. You could say it's a best practice on another platform. That's totally fine. But trying to say it's a best practice that can be implemented on Kubernetes is a totally different thing. And that's what we're trying to do in the group. Like what can you do right now? If you need to use external tools and have a better understanding of what's going on. Let's just say that's out of scope. So that's why this one is there. And so it's required. The motivation. Did did you provide a summary and motivation? I should probably pull up one of the existing ones. Let's just do this. No root. So summary and motivation. What is this actual best practice? Tell me what your, what the best practice is. Okay. So it's saying you shouldn't run as this privileged user. Probably if we're talking. Unix based kernel and. UID zero. So that's, that's what we're talking about. The user itself, not container privileges. Nothing else. This is specifically about. The user. So that's pretty straightforward, the summary. So someone can look at this best practice, Oliver and, and now what am I, what is this actually about the, you know, ideally the name tells you container should not execute process as a non root. Or should execute. The summary. Is expanding on that a little bit. And now we have the motivation. This is a, you know, a, a quick. A quick summary. What is it? And why are we saying this is a best practice? That's a motivation. So both of those. Those are required. If you don't have a summary and you don't have your motivation, then the best practice is not going to be accepted. And then from there, you know, we start providing more details. We're launching a new training plan. So this is not that. Test or completed. It might be. But is it testable? So some best. Some implementations. Are harder to test than others. I don't think anything you would call it impossible, but if we can't communicate, here's how you test the best practice, of communication around, here are the different things in it. This isn't the test case and spec and everything else right now, but there needs to be something. And this is probably input when you're talking with different folks to whoever can help with that. So from the, I'll just bring up Annika, the RC team. So if there's something there and people are like, yeah, we don't know how to test that, then that's going to be a problem to at least highlight. Scoring, this one's probably something that we should remove and let or we need to modify. This could tie into if it's specifically for the CNS certification, how that would tie in would be in my mind right now, this is talking off, you know, just on the fly. Is it an essential type of best best practice? Would we say everyone should absolutely do this? So non running processes, non rude, I think is a pretty essential, but you may have others that we go, no, absolutely. Everyone should do this. There's no questions. Now, it doesn't mean that there's no exceptions, but we're saying this is very strongly recommended best practice, you know, and decide on where it lies on that. Implementation history, not required, but you know, this is going to be good as we continue. So we go, is this part of, do we have tests out there now? Is it part of the certification process? Yeah, whatever other things that we want to put. And then the supporting documentation. So I don't think we actually highlight. Actually, let me see up here. User stories say optional notes optional references are not optional. And that might be part of what you're talking about here. I think the user stories or use cases, this is how it's relevant. I guess this would, in some ways, tie into the motivation. What are we trying to solve with this best practice? So the use cases and user stories are highly recommended. Right now we don't have the marked required. Maybe because, you know, I'm not sure, but maybe because there may be something that's obviously a agreed on best practice. And there's a lot of references like this one, even if you didn't have our own user stories for this no root and container's best practices. The reference links would cover more than what we have in that context to provide, you know, where do you apply this? If it's needed, though, we can go through and adjust, you know, what do we think are required and optional and what we may add or modify for this particular set. But I would say this is the end goal, Oliver, for a lot of the content. Maybe it's the end goal is to have a list of best practices that people can reference with, you know, all the content within each best practice that helps them understand why, you know, why each one of us important, is it relevant to them? And enough information that they can go off and, you know, figure out how to implement it for themselves. We're not implementing it for everybody. But if they can understand enough and there's enough references, then they can say, yep, this is relevant to me, I'm going to try to do this. And if we take, I guess if, you know, if everyone agrees that that's a good goal, like a list of best practices that people developing CNS, or validating that CNS are following a set of best practices, if the goal is we're going to have this list and it's going to have relevant information, then how do we make that process easier to follow so that we can publish more and, you know, what is actually required and not required as relevant, I think would go into that Oliver. Yeah, I appreciate that, Taylor. And I guess it was implied, but I think to your, I mean, for me, the end goal has been fairly clear, wanting the best practices and a list of those. So that's not been so much of a question for me. But to your point, maybe also part of the end goal is this published best practices or, you know, you're talking about CNF vendors, you know, being able to look upon them and say whether or not this is valid or not valid or something they're going to use or implement. And I guess it's also, this is also feeding into other work streams like the CNF test suite. So in the conform, and thus the conformance program as well. So it's, you know, there's a chain of things that are taking place. One very quick question, Victor or Taylor, when you were showing the contribution page there, there was a point about implementable and it looks like it's a label or something. You can't click on it. Where do we get a definition of that? What that means? Yeah, that point there. The check off list, okay. If you're not highlighting it, if you just look, I mean, implementable, it looks like, you know, it's referred to, you know, if you click somewhere else you'll see that it's obviously, you know, as if it were defined somewhere or elsewhere. I don't think there's any definition inside of the CNF working group. Okay. I'm sorry guys. I mean, you know, tell me to be quiet and let the next person talk, but here's an example for me. I don't know what that, you know, I need to understand what that means. You know, if we mean that it needs to be something that you can support from Kubernetes, you know, then okay, or does it mean something else? I think that would have a bearing on the best practice. I think we should expand on it. You know, the simplest would be implementable within Kubernetes. But then I would ask what that means. So I think we need to define it and maybe that's, you know, we don't have to do that right now, but I think it would be useful to understand what does that specifically mean? Add a message, you know, you can link to this. I'm only operating with one arm, Taylor. I've had surgery, so I can't, I'm going to ask if someone can maybe just help out or. All right. Let me put it in like this. Yeah, sounds good. So we can go, you know, maybe one of the things that we can do is go through these documents and see. Yeah, good idea. Create an issue. When you get a chance Oliver, can you please create an issue for that? It's in the document now. For any of the ones where you're thinking, I don't know what this is or can we adjust or add. And then we can go through and look at any of these and decide what adjustments what we want to add and everything else. I know some of this was left more general, so that as things change, we can, it would be relevant to that. That said, I think we can make some of it a little more specific. And if in the future, we need to expand it, we can come back and do that. We're not setting something in stone. Or any other questions, comments? No, I guess that Oliver made a lot of good points. I mean, it's important to just think about it and maybe modify a few things if we need to change in order to provide more use cases or best practices in this case. So maybe we should plan in the next session to think about more, how can we, if we need to modify something. I'm not talking about more than the mission, it's probably the way to achieve that mission, maybe to have brainstorming and suggesting new ideas or something like that. I like the idea of the issues being created for things that are needed. If we need to look at the overall process and maybe write that out, could be, we have a lot of it, so already written. So when I'm saying this, it's okay to say we already haven't pulled the content. The idea would be to, I think, which goes along with what you're saying, Victor, we could get together and go through the write out the process or find the documentation for the process that we have to get a best practice published. And then after that's written out, it can be examined and we decide if there needs to be any changes. But first, list everything. I mean, I just kind of jumped around based on what I can remember and what Oliver you were asking, but if we actually have the full thing written out, then that'd be good. Another thing that we could do is look at the more at the template, which is, that's part of the process. But I'd just say writing out the entire process from start to finish might be a good place. And the other thing that I was thinking, I mean, we noticed during the telco day that we have a lot of participation. I mean, at least many people submitted good ideas. So probably we don't have to wait until the next telco day. So probably we can provide decent access space for older to chair ideas. And I mean, not necessarily to have to write it down, use cases or best practices, but at least sharing what they have done in their own companies for their own projects to provide CNF and just sharing ideas like specific topics or specific problems that they face. Just use these as an space and just explain or just sharing ideas, I guess. And that way we can use it and not wait until the next telco day and for having the opportunity to share all these because also we have that limited time in that particular day. So probably we can use these as an opportunity for all them. That sounds like a good idea. All right, y'all. If there's nothing else, we'll stop here and maybe come back next time. Do we want to start with documenting the process to have a best practice published like from start to finish? And then we after that, we can decide if we have time to start examining any gaps or stuff like definitions that are not there. Does that sound good for the focus of the next call? Yes. Yeah, I think I'll be. I'm going to put something here. So we remember what does it mean to publish? I would say that we have some best practices as pull request, but we don't have them in a list. We don't have them where we're saying here is the ones that we're saying are essential and very important. So that would be another one, Oliver. Like what is the different levels of contribution of a best practice before it's production GA ready or whatever. So we can communicate. I think all of that can be part of this. So the process from where it goes from an idea all the way until it's probably, you know, we would communicate to the world that it's recommended that everyone does it. So I'll do that. We'll start on that writing out that process and then fill in the gaps after. First, let's get a document. Thanks, everyone. Thanks. Cheers. Cheers.