 I think we're going to kill thousands of people and your whole plan is broken and you need a new plan. It doesn't seem like a kind of out of control movie. You are going to have to look down, but there is no lockdown plan. Alright, Charlie. Here we go. I'm Scott Rouse, I'm a Body Language Expert and Analyst and I train law enforcement in the military and interrogation in Body Language. And I created the number one online Body Language course, Body Language Tactics with Greg Hartley. Mark. I'm Mark Bowden, I'm an Expert in Human Behavior and Body Language to help people all over the world to stand out, win trust and gain credibility every time they communicate, including some of the leaders of the G7. Chase. Hi, I'm Chase Hughes and I mouth internally Mark Bowden's introduction every time he says it. But I also did 20 years in the US military. I wrote the number one bestselling book on influence, persuasion and behavior profiling. Nowadays, I teach extreme influence, behavior profiling and people reading to the general public and intelligence agencies. Greg. I'm Greg Hartley, I'm a former Army interrogator, interrogation instructor, resistance to interrogation instructor, written 10 books on Body Language and Behavior and put together this number one online course, BodyLanguageTactics.com with Scott. I spend most of my time on Wall Street in corporate America. Excellent. Well, today we're going to talk about Dominic Cummings and Mark found it. Mark, why don't you tell us about Dominic? Yeah, so Dominic Cummings, lots of people in the UK have been asking for this actually from way back at the start of COVID. It just so happens recently Cummings went up in front of what's called a select committee, which is a part of parliament that gets to question you as to what on earth went on somewhere recently. Dominic Cummings was the chief advisor to the UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson until recently where they split ways. Arguably, he was probably the second most powerful person in British politics behind the Prime Minister. He's a notorious character, notorious for creating the take back control motto, which some but not all of Britain got behind in order for the Brexit for Britain to come out of Europe. So notorious, notorious character. And in the videos that we're watching, he's talking about what happened in cabinet meetings during the COVID health crisis. There you go. Okay, great. Now, Greg, do you want to add something to that? So keep us off from this is going to get a little bit boring. Yeah, I don't think this is boring at all guys. I would say what Chase and I come from a human intelligence collector background. And when we say interrogator, that's one form of human intelligence collection. Another is debriefing. And this is a dream. You get a guy who defects in effect, and he's going to tell you everything that happened. We get more intelligence from foreign governments by debriefing, by talking to a guy, reading his by language and listening than we do by far from a hostile interrogation. So pay attention. This is a really good opportunity to hear the inner workings of something very complex. And as Mark said, second most powerful guy in British government. All right. All right. We've got 10 little videos to take a look at. And what we do here, we just tell you what we're seeing. That's it. It doesn't mean this person is innocent. It doesn't mean they're guilty. It doesn't mean they're lying. It doesn't mean they're telling the truth. We're just telling you what we see from our perspective, our different perspectives in their body language. That's it. All right. You guys ready? Yeah. Here we go. The truth is that senior ministers, senior officials, senior advisors like me fell disastrously short of the standards that the public has a right to expect of its government in a crisis like this. When the public needed us most, the government failed. And I'd like to say to all the families of those who died and certainly how sorry I am for the mistakes that were made and for my own mistakes at that. All right. Chase, what do you got? Yeah. We're seeing a whole lot of honest stuff here. This guy has been in this political realm since 1999. And he's been doing this stuff for a very long time. I've studied his work. He approaches a lot of this stuff from a very psychological perspective. He got to start studying this guy named John Boyd. And he was an American military fighter pilot who invented the Uda Loop. And so he started studying this stuff. This is a way that police officers can understand the process of how we think in critical times. And we already see, so just as a behavior profiler, I'm instantly seeing this as a right-handed person. So I'm looking for things with the right hand. I know that when I see that person's dominant shoulder go back in a conversation that could indicate that they're in very strong disagreement with what's being said. I think his shirt is deliberate. He knows exactly what he's doing. He's opened up his button. He's rolled his sleeves up to identify with the most amount of common people that he can. And when he's saying the government failed, these other people failed, he's using team-focused pronouns. We, this group, failed. And that's pretty common. So the collective failed, not just me. I want to reassure you that everybody screwed up, that it wasn't just me. Scott? All right. I think what we're seeing here is an apology. I think it's a sincere apology and I think he's feeling this. And we know that because as he's speaking, you can hear his voice quiver. One of those things we're about to start crying. You can do that. It's an art to be able to pull that off. So it's believable. But you can do that. But I don't think that's what we're seeing here. He's showing the classics of being humbled. He's got his head down. His shoulders are up. He's almost turtling. You'll see somebody who's doing something they're not supposed to be doing in a store and they're stealing things or something like that. So you see him trying to make himself smaller because I really do think he's feeling this. And his hands are together almost like he's in prayer as he's doing this. They're not moving much at all and they're together and his head is down and he's almost begging for, it looks like he's begging for forgiveness in a way. We see just a hint of the grief muscle. So that shows that he's actually feeling this as he goes along and denotes that. The volume of his voice and the tone is different from everywhere else. We'll see one more spot in here just briefly. I'll point that out. But it changes from this point forward. His vocal tone and the timbre of his voice as well. He's using his head as illustrators. And this is one of the only times, I think he does it three times throughout this, and this is just his head as an illustrator, not through the whole of the other videos I'm talking about, but in the beginnings of them and we'll go over that as well. Yeah, we're not really seeing somebody may call the adapters, his hands together like this and moving around. But I think he's just, I think they're just together. He's not even thinking about it. I don't think he's adapting at that point. It could be wrong. What do you think, Mark? Yeah, so I think what we're seeing in could be adapters here. It might be just a little bit of self-stimulation, a little bit of self-stimulation just to keep himself buoyant and psychologically optimistic about what's happening here. This question especially is a bit of a threat to him because you're right, Scott, this is a moment of apology. And I think what the British public want to know about this is, is it a genuine apology? Does Dom really actually mean this? Let's come to that in a moment, but I want to go back to what Chase was saying, which is the shirt. And yeah, the shirt is, is classic for him in that everybody you're going to hear from in these interviews and everybody talked about went to one of two universities in the UK. Everybody knows everybody, everybody else and Dominic did go to those same universities. However, he sees himself, I think, as a bit of an outsider from the usual political group. He's a little bit out there, thinks a little bit differently. And so even if he deems to show up for select committee, and I think this is the only time he's gone, yeah, I'll show up and you can ask me some questions. He shows with his buttons undone and his sleeves rolled up to kind of go, I don't think I'm really from your group kind of is, but he's almost playing the Northern English idea. He's from Durham, north of England, not from the south. There's a bit of divide going on there. So, you know, two very different groups there. Yeah, so, uh, Turtling, I agree. I think we are seeing some of that. It isn't just his position. I think he truly is Turtling there. Downcast eyes. I think we are seeing a bit of shame there. There's some monitors down there. So sometimes we will see him looking down. That's when he's trying to make contact with a specific group of people who are on those monitors and aren't in the array in front of him. We see stress that Swallow reflects a little bit. Um, how, how sorry I am. And he, he bat on gestures with his finger there. How sorry I am. So there's some stress on that as well. That would suggest that there's, there's congruence there. He truly is sorry. Voice crack on the idea of the families so that the bereaved so that, that, that sense of emotion around the bereaved. And yes, some somewhat grief in the forehead, maybe not as pronounced as it, as it could be, but I think it's there. Greg, what do you think? Do you see that? I did. I saw the little grief muscle when he said died. When that part hit, there's clearly a little grief muscle. He does a request for approval there as well raises his brow like a child when they're doing something and they're asking you for approval. They raise their head. It doesn't mean they're lying. They use it at different times. They may just wait to see what you think. And you see that brow drop immediately. I saw some eye blocking his blink rating increased. You could see emotion welling up. Not a lot, but you could hear as he went on about saying whatever this, you know, like me when he went to blame sharing is what I call that in corporate America every day. We, we, we when things go wrong. I, I, I when things go great in this case, he goes like me. And I do believe is genuine. There's some shallow breathing associated with it as well. And he's blocking his eyes as he looks down. I think there's shame associated. I think it's an apology, just like you guys said. Cool. The truth is that senior ministers, senior officials, senior advisors like me fell disastrously short of the standards that the public has a right to expect of its government in a crisis like this. When the public needs us most, the government failed. And I'd like to say to all the families of those who, who died and certainly how sorry I am for the mistakes that were made and for my own mistakes at that. All right. Very good. Yeah. Thanks. In February, the prime minister regarded this as just a scare story. He, he regarded, he described it as the new swine flu. Did you tell him it wasn't? Certainly. But the view of various officials inside number 10 was if we have minister chair and Cobra meetings and he just tells everyone it's swine flu. Don't worry about it. I'm going to get Chris Whitty to inject me live on TV with coronavirus. So everyone realizes it's nothing to be frightened of. That would be, that would not help. All right. Mark, where do you go? Yeah. So I'm interested in the idea that he says instead of saying yes, he says certainly it's a bit close to sometimes the idea of absolutely. So, so there seems to be a little extra force on this idea. And just instead of just saying yes, he goes for certainly he's laboring it a little bit more, putting a little bit more pressure on this idea. I'm interested in that. Look, we, our eyes focus on what is valuable, our eyes focus on what is highest rank, highest status, what's most valuable. Our eyes look to the light rather than the dark often. And what I want you to look out for is exactly where his eyes are going to, which is in his view, the two highest ranking people who are there interviewing him, which is Greg Clark and Jeremy Hunt. Both are our co-chairs of this committee, but both of them are rivals. And one of them is implicated somewhat in this in that one of them, Jeremy Hunt, used to run the health service. And the health service under somebody else's ownership is being implicated, but the implication could go back in time. People weren't ready for this. There was no plan. And that having no plan could go back to Jeremy Hunt. So I think we're going to, those shifty eyes are not about, hey, is this person telling us the truth? Are they lying? It's about them looking for the response of the two highest ranking people there and some potential targets. Certainly one potential target there. Yeah. But I would say when it comes to this idea of Chris Witte, the idea that Chris Witte, who was the chief surgeon for the UK, going live on TV and injecting Boris Johnson as kind of a stunt, which Boris is just a brilliant stunt guy, brilliant, brilliant marketer, brilliant stunt guy. That idea of is that true? Was that going to happen? What I would suggest, and I'd like to hear from Scott on this, is there seems to be a rhythm there. I mean, Scott always talks about loping. There seems to be a good rhythm to that. It seems to be a story that rolls along quite well, rather than a story of, let me make this up on the spot, or I've made up this story, let me deliver that story now. Seems to roll along. But Scott, what have you got on it? What do you think? I agree with it completely because he's telling a story and not a story that he's made up. He's telling, he's relaying what has happened. And we know this because of what you're saying, Mark. Perfect. It's a great call on that. His loping. He's talking in this rhythm that we're going to see him talk throughout this whole thing. He hasn't just gotten into a thing and talking like this and da-da-da-da. He's actually kind of, it's like you're riding a horse. It's loping through a field or whatever. So yeah, that's great. That's one of the things that you first start listening for, as you know. And another thing is a lot of people are going to say that his head shake when he's doing this, that he's not telling the truth because he's saying no as he's giving this information. This is what I call the nothing more than head shake when they say there's nothing more than this there. That's what we're seeing there because that's what's pretty much going through his mind as he's relaying this information. There's nothing more than this. It's very simple. What do you say? We go on to find out, there's a lot of, it's complex and the way he explains it is fascinating. It's great. So that's another thing. We see the phishing with a pin. In this case, it shows like when you goof around with yours, Mark, yours is focused. It's not because you're trying to get rid of some weird thing you've got pent up, but you'll spin it in your fingers and you'll just be talking. It's just because you're doing it. It helps you focus on that. Kind of like a fidget spinner, I guess. Now, having said all that, his posture seems a little more relaxed than it did in the video before this. So it's more of a, and we'll see his posture change quite a bit in here because there's a lot going on. As it should, when you're telling a story and the different parts come up and you start talking real seriously, you lean forward, that head comes out and you start getting the head to go in. We're seeing all these things in here. That's why I'm still hanging with, he's telling the truth here. What else have I got? And here his voice tone is a little bit low, a little bit lower than it was. A lot of times when people are telling you something really serious and you're in trouble or something's happened, that voice will go low, but it'll stay strong as it did in this case. So that's what I got. Greg, what do you got? So when I watch him, I see a little bit of downright eye-accessing and whether this matters to him or not, there's some emotion associated when we look at things down into a right. And I'm looking Mark as well to make sure he's not breaking eye contact to look at someone else. I also am a big believer that the way a person's voice sounds matters. Because you can all finish this, you can finish this sentence. It's not what you said. It's how you said it. There's a break from everything else he says here when he says certainly everything else. And not just in this interview, but in the rest of it as well. That certainly to me is a little snarky. It's a little... What do you think? It's more of that than it's kind of a delil to the end. Who do I look like? It's kind of what I hear there when I hear that little to the voice. So a little bit of contempt there, but of course I don't know British politics from, you know, Alabama politics or Kentucky politics. So I don't know exactly how much contempt that would lead to. His blink right does indicate he's got a little bit of height in fight or flight when it gets to the point they're starting to ask him pointed questions. One thing you should note is just because a person has fight or flight doesn't mean they're lying. It can mean that there's a dog barking in the background or it can mean that there's another... No, keep going. Just keep going. It works. It works. Chase, we're good, man. This will be good. Anyway, it also can mean there's something going on in your head about something else. This is why we can't say we're reading your mind. It's not what we're doing. We're looking for indicators, something's going on. And here what I see is more of him coming in to tell a story that has some stress associated with it. And when you ask him, did you tell him, well, of course I did. Nothing more than that. That's all I got. Chase, what do you got? Other than a dog. Other than a dog. I'm here. Come here. Mine have been outside making a lot of noise is why I knew the guy who's working on the house was leaving. That's why I had to get up and go earlier. The dog is clearly being kenneled. Poor guy. Sorry, I got a big sign on the door that says do not knock live on air and there's someone pounding on the door. What are you going to do? Alright, you ready? Throw it on over to Chase. Yeah. Chase, what do you got? I think this was mostly honest. I agree with you guys. One of the big things here that we see is his arm is out on the chair. He's got another arm that's kind of out here. We see elbow distance from the body. And one thing that fear makes our bodies do, is protect arteries. That's why we have turtling. That's why this muscle sticks out here and comes in front of the carotid artery. All of that stuff shows us that his body is either lacking fear or he has had a ton of training and he's definitely fooled me. So I don't think there's much fear here. I do think there's a narrative. I think he is pushing a narrative. He's choosing his words very carefully to paint a picture. But I also think that that doesn't mean that this is deceptive. That doesn't mean the statements are deceptive. So I think he's telling the truth and you know, Greg and I are both I think I would call myself a brainwashing expert. And we're doing this stuff there are very specific ways when we do trial consulting we're teaching someone how to be deposed we're teaching someone how to conduct a deposition effectively all of that stuff is still truthful we're just wording it in a certain way so that structure story, character, arc all of this stuff spends a certain emotional tale in the listener's head. That's all I got. Very cool. In February the prime minister regarded this as just a scare story. He regarded he described it as the new swine flu. Did you tell him it wasn't? Certainly. But the view of various officials inside number 10 was if we have the prime minister chair in Cobra meetings and he just tells everyone it's swine flu, don't worry about it I'm going to get Chris Whitty to inject me live on TV with coronavirus so everyone realizes it's nothing to be frightened of that would be that would not help. Right, we good? Yep. The second most powerful official in the country Helen McNamara is the deputy cabinet secretary. She walked into the office while we're looking at this whiteboard she says I've just been talking to the official Mark Sweeney who is in charge of coordinating with the department for health. He said, quote I've been told for years that there was a whole plan for this there is no plan we're in huge trouble I've come through here Helen McNamara said I've come through here to the prime minister's office to tell you all, quote I think we are absolutely I think this country is heading for a disaster I think we're going to kill thousands of people as soon as I've been told this I've come through to see you it seems from the conversation that you're having that's correct and I said I think you're right I think it is a disaster. All right, Greg what do you got? I agree with everything you guys have said to now they're storytelling and this is a great example of storytelling this is I came prepared to tell you this story in fact I'm even going to anchor it with some holy ground folks here's the second most powerful person here's this other person and I'm going to use quotes you don't come in you'll prepared with quotes you could say kind of said this but when you say quote and you're in front of a government body you're probably locking yourself down you're being held accountable for saying that so you watch that as he starts telling his stories, loping along he hits that holy ground he makes real eye contact does a quick request for approval but not the kind that says I'm lying but the kind that says are you with me this is the entire crux of everything we're going to see moving from here Mark what do you got? I absolutely agree we've got emphatic downward gestures on this so this all of this is all really key points and you might think well this is key points for the select committee it's not it's key points for the public and the reason is the select committee know exactly who Helen McNamara is they don't need an explanation of exactly who Helen McNamara is but the general public wouldn't really know who one of the most powerful civil servants in the UK was at that time and so the public we need informing of that and Dominic knows that so that's what he's trying to get it through to us the public because he doesn't usually show up at these things he showed up for a specific reason which is I'm going to tell the public who was there on what date exactly what they said and the public will hear it from me rather than through the filter of government and the the press I would say however that the voice does crack on kill thousands of people so again I would say it's not that you can't do that on purpose but it's tough to do to do that one and get it just right and I think it's it's good it's it's subtle and it's in the right place and he runs out of breath at the end as well which I think to your point Greg it does suggest to me something is rehearsed about this because usually the body will work in a much more natural way with the mind and won't give you sentences that are too long it's almost like he's gone through this here's what I'm going to say here's why I'm going to mention oh I should have rehearsed this under pressure because I've gone and run out of breath and I've got to swallow and take another one and get that last bit in so rehearsed, prepared I think emphatic instructional for the for the public as to what happened but I think an element there of sincerity still around kill thousands of people Chase what do you think yep I agree with the guys that was over and his gestures move with his words we also saw that he puts positive things he's starting to sort positive things off to his right side that's important for us as we're interviewing a person to be able to say that's the side that they reference positive things and if they all of a sudden they're talking about something negative and their hands go over here and they say oh it was a horrible experience or oh it was a great relationship that's something to pay attention to in hemisphere left and right hemisphere there is a he starts using the word disaster I think is his own word and he uses this a few times you're going to see this again anytime someone describes something negatively the words they use if you're in sales if you're a parent the words they use to describe anything negative and positive need to go in your pocket and and that's how you're going to describe taking action on something or maybe you describe a relationship with your competitor that way who knows or maybe the consequences of not taking action and he uses a powerful in his descriptions quite a bit I think this is a person who is very concerned with hierarchy and status and not just that he wants to convey that to the public he wants to convey that to the public because he thinks that way as well and all of us if you secretly want to know how someone thinks ask them how they think most people view a certain thing because we all tend to think that most people think like we do and I think the overall story here is I agreed with the right people and that and that's what we're really seeing here I agreed with the right people and that's all I got Scott all right well we're seeing a relay facts and that's pretty that's pretty much all that's going on this in my point of view from my perspective in this because he's got the illustrators are getting big at this point they're almost on every word like Mark was saying earlier they're thinking no matter what he's saying that's all a big deal to him he's emphasizing these specific words and phrases now as he goes along these illustrators hit every several words they'll hit because he's giving a complete thought and hitting on those complete thoughts as he does it as we know illustrators are what people use to their brain emphasizes specific words and or phrases as you go along like I just did then and that's when his fingers hit the table as well Mark you're a good column that and he begins at his left when he's when he's talking about the past and he goes to the right when he's talking about the future and as he's going through this timeline and telling the story he says this is what happened here when so and so and so and so said this then they then this happened then they'll say but when this happened and they'll come something before that so that that whole using your your hands to show where you are in the timeline is used there as well and I think that's what makes him a great communicator I think this guy will end up if he's not known as it already which I think Mark has pretty much said he's known as a great communicator not the great communicator but a great communicator he's got a good vocal tone when he's relaying what people have said when he starts getting close to if not quoting if he's when he does quote it he leans into it at this point he's using a good strong vocal tones that goes in as Greg was talking about earlier about having the way someone sounds when they're when they're telling a story and I think Mark brought that up as well that there as he goes through it's strong when he's come through there he believes this because it happened and so he's just relaying what happened it's easy for him to do that's why it's coming out like that I believe from my point of view he's not he's not exaggerating anything there are no words very huge you know monstrous nothing big nothing sounds out of whack he's just cutting right along that same loping manner just telling you what happened his head is down like he's telling you something again like here's what here's here's why you're in trouble that kind of thing so his head's forward and he's giving this information and it's not that he can't wait to give it he wants to give it bad but he's sure of it and he wants you to know that he's sure of it and that's how that's done that he's serious about it if you're talking to a child he doesn't say you shouldn't have done that and here's why he shouldn't have done it if you're talking to the tax guy and he goes this is where you messed up they'll leave it and tell you that I think this is real everything we're seeing is real I think he's being truthful up to this point I don't see any deception at all in here this will be if you're looking for deceptive cues and tales I don't think we're seeing them one not even a little bit that's all I got at this point the second most powerful official in the country Helen McNamara is the deputy cabinet secretary she walked into the office while we're looking at this whiteboard she says I've just been talking to the official Mark Sweeney who is in charge of coordinating with the department for health he said quote I've been told for years that there was a whole plan for this there is no plan we're in huge trouble I've come through here that's Helen McNamara said I've come through here to the department's office to tell you all quote I think we are absolutely I think this country is heading for a disaster I think we're going to kill thousands of people as soon as I've been told this I've come through to see you it seems from the conversation that you're having that that's correct and I said I think you're right I think it is a disaster no doubt at all that many senior people performed far far disastrously below the standards which the country has a right to expect I think that the secretary of state for health is certainly one of those people I said repeatedly to the prime minister that he should be fired then Greg what do you got so when I watch this one we're talking about telling a story and he's throwing people under the bus but he's throwing his colleagues under the bus and so there's no regardless of what your purpose is if you're here to torpedo someone career-wise or that you're still associated with them it would be like me coming out and attacking this review and saying going in public and saying hey all those guys are this well you still have shame or embarrassment when that happens and I typically tell people to look for energy direction and focus to pick up on emotions so energy is either low or high direction either sharp or scattered and then focus is internal or external in his case his energy is low his direction is very sharp and his focus is internal and that's embarrassment or shame you can see it you can see his body language close up regardless of whether he's trying to hurt someone else or not he's certainly feeling it himself and you can see he has a barrier up and he's adapting he's releasing nervous energy his chin is down typically when we say embarrassment you may look away and break eye contact but shame your chin covers your throat so it's what I see it doesn't matter whether he has an ulterior motive or not still human being still has those kinds of things now I'll leave it to Mark to tell us what his motive may be because Mark is much smarter about that kind of stuff than I am Chase what do you got yeah so we're hearing him use disaster again disastrous and using his own words so we're kind of confirming we're seeing that that's a big deal to him I think there is still we can see a narrative present in all of this that there's a desired outcome so if most of the time what we want to convey anytime I'm coaching a deponent or somebody who's about to be deposed or interviewed the need to convey a lack of outcome dependency is very important especially to be trusted by somebody like in a courtroom setting or job interview and I think there's an upward tone there's an eyebrow flash while delivering his line about should be fired that's one of the few times that he goes upward at the end I think this is 95% truth and we see another confirmation again of his recollections and emotional recollections coming down here towards his seven o'clock eye position and Mark I'll pass it over to you yeah so I think what's interesting for me is I think we're seeing again some self stimulation on the pen around the pen where he's digging his fingers in there you know basically this is a stressful painful situation for him if he can control some of that pain by delivering it to himself he's going to feel a little more confident a little bit more in charge so I think that's what that pen action is about look in politics previous colleagues can become very expendable and probably in the world of previous colleagues probably Matt Hancock is relatively expendable so it's not too much of a problem to throw Hancock under the bus what's interesting for me well first of all we get that far far disastrously below so there's a big idea of how bad this was and that somebody should have been fired but I think his direction is potentially down because the people on the screens in front of him are from the Labour Party side of the Select Committee or some of them are up here are a few more certainly high ranking Conservative Party Select Committee now Cummings was working with the Conservative Party that's not to say he couldn't go in all kinds of directions you know he was originally aligned with the I think the Liberal Democrats at one point so he could go kind of anywhere but the people who could really ask for the resignation are the people down there those are the people he's trying to get to join in on this idea of well why don't we ask for Hancock's resignation right now because the moment you start picking people off eventually there'll be nobody left supporting the top of the pyramid and the King Force essentially and this might be what it's about is how you pick people off who are the supporters and who you get to do that so the crown topples not the actual crown in this specific sense but the top of the hierarchy anyway that's what I've got for you on that and Scott what have you got alright this like Greg was saying goes back to similar actions or acts that he's doing in the positions that he's in in the first video because he's looking apologetic he's looking he feels a little bit sorry about this he knows he's talking about incompetence because he's a part of it and I think that's where that's coming from so we're seeing him get kind of he's pretty still on this as well again Mark you nailed the pin fidgeting with a pin but something interesting is something that Chase does a lot if you roll this back and listen to Chase when you elongate the last word of a sentence or a phrase then that makes you pay attention it gets that person in and Chase was doing it perfectly I was thinking about that as you were doing that Chase I was thinking about how I'm going to word that and in this case this is the first time he starts as he goes through he uses a long word at the end of a sentence so it keeps you hanging there keeps you paying attention because it makes you want to do next. Magicians do a lot of things and when they do like the sleight of hand stuff I learned this when they'll be doing something they'll take something from here and if they took it from here to here that's one thing you may look at their hand for a second as it moves but when they do it at an arc then your hand then your brain goes where's that hand going so your brain keeps watching that hand as they're doing something over here so I'm not saying it's what he's doing with his words but that gets your attention just as that arc would hold your attention and make you think about what he's saying his voice tone is strong and again it's still between video one and video two he's not leaning into it real hard because of the subject he's talking about he's back a little bit but he's still trying to be forceful as he's trying to be a part of this of what he knows is incompetence because he knows he's not one of that so that's what that seems like to me and again I'm seeing he's being truthful here I don't see any deception whatsoever not even a little bit no doubt at all that many senior people performed far far disastrously below the standards which the country has a right to expect I think that the Secretary of State for Health is certainly one of those people I said repeatedly to the Prime Minister he should be fired yeah in accusing the Health Secretary of having lied did I hear that correctly yes that's obviously a serious charge can you provide the committee with the evidence behind that assertion yes I mean in there are numerous examples in the summer he said that everyone who got the treatment that they required he knew that that was a lie because he'd been briefed by the chief scientific advisor and the chief medical officer himself about the first peak and we were told explicitly people did not get the treatment that they deserved many people were left to die in horrific circumstances is that the basis of your assertion are there other is that the basis of your assertion or are there other pieces of evidence that you base that that charge on those with having covered ourselves the Secretary of State for Health told us in the Cabinet Room everything is fine on PPE we've got it all covered etc etc when I came back almost the first meeting I had in the Cabinet Room was about the disaster over PPE and how we were actually completely sure that hospitals all over the country were running out Secretary of State said in that meeting this is the fault of Simon Stevens it's the fault of the Chancellor of the Exchequer it's not my fault they've blocked approvals on all sorts of things I said to the Cabinet Secretary please investigate this and find out if it's true the Cabinet Secretary came back to me and said it's completely untrue I have lost confidence in the Secretary of State's honesty in these meetings the Cabinet Secretary said that the Cabinet Secretary said that to me and the Cabinet Secretary said that to the Prime Minister I'll go first on this one he's got some internal dialogue going on nothing like oh my gosh what's going to happen next but he's thinking about what he's doing it's not donning on it what he's doing he's thinking about the gravity of the statements he's making this guy asked him if he lied he says yes he lied about that that's why his hand is up he's using it not only as an adapter he's also using it as a barrier and he doesn't move he goes yes he doesn't want to come blazing out there because I think he believes it would look odd I could be wrong about that but that's what I would think I would stay in that position if someone asked me especially if I was being serious about something because that means he's really focused on the guy who's talking who is that guy Mark who's the guy who's famous guy over there yeah, famous-ish yeah so apparently he has a lot of weight so that would make sense yeah, so he's really thinking about the gravity of what he's saying because he's tattling on that secretary of state of health how do they say that Mark was it the secretary of the state of state for health for health, okay yeah, so he's kind of let him have it he knows he's going to catch a lot of plaque for it then he's becoming a little bit indignant and we see some discuss on if you're into micro-expressions go back through this because we're seeing a ton of them in there and most of it is based around disgust because he's disgusted with that person I believe that's my impression of it his eyes are really wide as he's going through that as well and this denotes, now when somebody gets angry with you a lot of times you'll see squinted eyes they'll be like oh and you'll say okay, when you see the squinted eyes and somebody's all mad you can relax, nothing big is going to happen but when the eyes are squinted you can see the whites of their eyes as their eyes are squinted that's what makes them look nuts that's when somebody's really angry this guy doesn't have the squinting part of that going but he has his eyes wide open as he's as the anger builds in there it's not uncommon, but it happens quite a lot so I'm going to the impression he's fed up with this and he's angry and disgusted now when he says after he says the people were left to die in circumstances he's got his mouth open, an expression of almost can you believe his mouth open, can you believe it so I think that's important there because he really feels that goes back to the first video when he feels shame and he feels he's apologizing for being a part of all this on his part and I think again, I'm going to say we're seeing truth here, he's being truthful and I don't see any deceptive anything in here not even a little bit when you look for truth you look for congruent messaging and by that we mean everything lines up and what I would tell you to do you should turn off the sound and watch the messaging and then go back and listen to the sound and see where you see a deviation there's not much here, what you're going to find and this is what Scott just said is it all lines up, all of his arrows are lining up he does one request for approval where I'm asking you to approve and it's not about whether it happened or not I'm going to approve that when he said there's not enough PPE to go around that's the only time I saw it if you pay attention to everything he says first of all, go back and look at the MP who was talking to him and watch what he does exactly what I call brow beating you are aware of what you're saying that's brow beating and he's like certainly I'm aware but his hands do go up in front of his mouth a little bit he's aware of the gravity of what he's saying his eyes, his eye contact all those things are delivering the message he's delivering and when Mark talks next I'm going to say well if this guy is not telling the truth as he sees it he should have been an actor because his message is pretty tight Mark what do you think? It's amazing what you don't need to know specifically what's happening here in order to get to the real nub of what's going on here's what I think that you've hit on there Greg Clarke here is playing the role I think of the kindly headmaster who is who is saying to Dominic I'm going to give you an opportunity to roll this one back because of the gravity I'm going to give you the opportunity to just roll it back and say hey when I said lie I was maybe exaggerating let me just step that one back so what Clarke does is lean forward as you're saying Greg he takes this role of the brow beater and kind of goes do you want to roll this one back and Cummings goes no not really I think I'll go ahead with this one so he says what's your evidence of that you see Cummings his hand rises up it floats up and then he takes a big amount of of space rather like saying there is a hot air balloon of stuff that I could bring to this where should I start on this one and so he widens his whole body to this status figure in front of him but he's also played something of the role of the kindly uncle the kindly headmaster comply roll this back now what happens is that Cummings delivers a bunch of evidence which could be seen as hearsay essentially and so Clarke goes well is this all you've got is that the best you can do well Cummings comes back with no I got a whole story which is corroborated by a cabinet secretary who is a civil servant, a top civil servant and it's not their job to make stuff up it's not their job to have any just one side or the other it's their job to search for the truth and do the job accurately for the British public and so what's brilliant about this piece and go back and look at Gregg Clarke's face at the start and how he stumbles through this because I believe he was hoping that Cummings would roll back on this and Cummings just keeps on coming until I think by the end of it Clarke wishes he hadn't gone down this route because now we have the name of a top civil servant who will corroborate evidence on this of a government minister in the cabinet directly lying that's a big piece lying cabinet it just puts the whole of Britain at risk when that happens but Chase what do you see what do you got? I was fascinated by something in this video for like 25 minutes this morning the woman behind him has a relatively new notebook she has now flipped it over is writing on the last page and it's also upside down I want to know what the hell is being written or scribbled inside of that final page of this new notebook I want to know what makes a person flip the last page and then flip it over that was fascinating completely unrelated and absolutely irrelevant I thought you were going to go with the mask thing with her when it's on and it's off and it's on and it's off that's where you were going with it I thought that was unusual as well he's just starting the next chapter Chase he's heading back in the other direction she's got so much to work with so he is taking up a lot of space showing some dominance but he's also got his hand on his hip and he's doing that I can't necessarily tell whether his thumb is facing backward or forward but typically somebody's thumbs are forward they're more curious about what's going on in front of them thumbs backward typically indicates a little more dominance and the first person to ever really write about this was a guy named Julius Fast and Desmond Morris and the book actually right up here called gestures and they called this the first name that this was given tie embrace posture to make sure no one could come and hug you and get close to you so I think that was it's a very great move whether it was deliberate or not I don't really care and I think it was a natural behavior for him right there I don't think it was a calculated maneuver and there's more disaster over the PPE there's horrific circumstances we're starting to see almost a sales pitch or a fictional account of where we're hearing these words that we might see in a movie or a movie trailer to where we're vividly imagining something because the adjective is so powerful not that any of this is fiction he is probably just such a compelling speaker and communicator that this stuff comes across none of these things per se are deceptive in nature or suggest deception is present barring any other behavior that's there even scoring this on the behavioral table of elements he would score an eight and a half for this entire thing I mean you need an 11 to be graded as likely deceptive the baton gestures are overall perfectly on point mostly honest and direct and how was the last one? in accusing the health secretary of having lied did I hear that correctly? yes can you, that's obviously a serious charge can you provide the committee with the evidence behind that assertion? yes I mean in there are numerous examples I mean in the summer he said that everyone who needed treatment got the treatment that they required he knew that that was a lie because he'd been briefed by the chief scientific advisor and the chief medical officer himself at our first peak we were told explicitly people did not get the treatment that they deserved many people were left to die in horrific circumstances is that the basis of your assertion? are there other pieces is that the basis of your assertion or are there other pieces of evidence that you base that charge on? just before the prime minister and I were diagnosed with having COVID ourselves the secretary of state for health told us in the cabinet room everything is fine on PPE we've got it all covered etc etc when I came back almost the first meeting I had in the cabinet room was about the disaster over PPE and how we were actually completely sure that hospitals all over the country were running out secretary of state said in that meeting this is the fault of Simon Stevens, it's the fault of the chancellor of the Exchequer, it's not my fault they've blocked approvals on all sorts of things I said to the cabinet secretary please investigate this and find out if it's true the cabinet secretary came back to me and said it's completely untrue I have lost confidence in the secretary of state's honesty in these meetings the cabinet secretary said that the cabinet secretary said that to me and the cabinet secretary said that to the prime minister so that's how the day started off with his thinking today is going to be all about all about COVID and whether or not we're going to announce the household quarantine we then got completely derailed because in the morning of the 12th suddenly the national security people came in and said Trump wants us to join a bombing campaign in the Middle East tonight and we need to start having meetings about that through the day with COBRA as well so everything to do with COBRA that day was on COVID was completely disrupted because you had these two parallel sets of meetings you had the national security people running in and out talking about are we going to bomb the Middle East and we had the COBRA meeting being delayed and what not as we were trying to figure out are we going to do household quarantine and then to add to the it sounds so surreal it couldn't possibly be true that day the Times had run a huge story about the Prime Minister and his girlfriend and their dog and the Prime Minister's girlfriend was going completely crackers about this story and demanding that the press office deal with that so we had this sort of completely insane situation in which part of the building was saying are we going to bomb Iraq part of the building was arguing about whether or not we're going to do quarantine the Prime Minister has his girlfriend going crackers about something completely trivial Chase what do you got we can see that he is painting a picture here to look like a circus he wants you to imagine a circus freak show of stuff going on here think of the difference he starts saying a bombing campaign in the Middle East but then once he's inside the building and talking about where all is going on it's just bomb the Middle East those are two very very different things bombing campaign in the Middle East or bomb the Middle East so now once he's inside it's more drastic more catastrophic description there and I think his head touching when he's touching his head stress and confusion which according to me matches his story and he spits out the name Trump and never failed to say Prime Minister when he's talking about the guy that he's bashing right now and still says his title I thought that was interesting, good data point I don't know anything else about the guy it's just a data point for me that I would ask about in the conversation he uses another negative adjective here when he says disrupted and if I see negative body language that someone's reliving something negative and they use the adjective that becomes more powerful will be more powerful later on in the conversation and let's see so I think that what he's doing with his hands is trying to he's reliving trying to arrange all the stuff that's going on he's really thinking about this little board of all the things that he's got to move around and when he says the Times had a story he goes to his negative side his left side the Times remember he puts positive stuff over here he says the Times ran a story he's referencing this side of his body another great data point to kind of maybe shine a little light on what he thinks about the media outlet or the article itself great so he starts off telling this story and when he touches his brow I think he's touching his brow is like okay this is not even going to sound real I think there's a little bit of concern about my whole story when I tell these details but he does touch his brow he's making dual eye contact and I think you said this earlier Mark but he's making eye contact with two or more people and he's trying to keep that it's not because he's rifling through his brain or any of that kind of thing his illustrators hit his story in exactly the right places with the exception of reaching for his brow there's no pause to ask for approval there's no brow up even when he's telling you the crazy stuff so to me this says congruent this says hey the story is rolling this is exactly what happened Scott what do you got? I think this guy is a problem solver which we've already shown we've already talked about this point and the reason is because when he talks about thinking he says we're thinking or the situation where he's talking about thinking then he goes on to explain these problems he's dealing with and I think when his hand goes to his head it's like any other time you're trying to think about something what was that kid's name I can't remember what the I think that's what it's about I believe it is an adapter but at the same time he's flashing back to thinking about all these things that were spinning around at once because at the end of this when he goes on to using his hand he's showing the things piling up as we go along as the story goes on he's piling things up and showing that pile when somebody did this and she was this and the dog and all this stuff says you go as we go along so I think he's a problem solver we're seeing part of the structure of how he solves problems he sees things in groups he sees things in generalities then he starts getting down to specifics as you normally would and I think we're seeing him do that body language wise and his illustrators he starts adding them on like he did before like he did earlier he starts adding them on they start getting bigger and he gets down to hitting specific words and phrases as he goes from generalities down into specifics when Trump would make something specific what he would do that's the way he would always do that he would say that he's pinpointing that specific point he's making he makes a point out of it and that's why he was doing that and I think we're seeing in his way doing this he has did this in his way doing that as he makes specifics and also he's relaying information again we know obviously he's relaying information but this is how it looks when you're explaining complex systems or how something is put together or a story you're explaining it's something that happened you'll go through and you'll use different spaces and he does this this whole space thing it's fascinating how he does it because he'll use this of course as the future he comes to the past and works his way through those and does the piling up stuff so he's building this picture for your brain to see as you're watching him so there's a lot going on there it helps keep your attention and he's leaning in and that shows us that when I say leaning in I mean he's putting all these things out at a good volume in these big movements because this happened I think he's relaying exactly what happened he's still trying the structure may not be completely correct in the small parts of it because there's always things that scoot around in your mind and you're remembering things but I think he feels so strongly about this that's why he's getting he's working himself up to be in his illustrators and in his words as well as he's coming through. Mark what do you got? Yeah I think you're right so I think what he's trying to do is keep control of this story because it is so outlandish for him so I think he goes up into the ecstatic area which is this idea of it's so energized it's so beyond your own body that you start rising out of your body we'll see him later on suppress in the ecstatic here but to keep control of it I think then he starts self-stimulating here. I think just like you're saying there Scott it's to he's not going to let it rise out of here or he'll lose control of the whole story and it will become so outlandish because he'll start describing it in an ecstatic outlandish way he's got to nail it down in some way so I think he nails it down his exasperation and the extraordinary nature of it he nails it down here we do see a sour taste on the bombing raid element and later on in this whole piece he does say later on that he thought rightly or thankfully that the bombing raid you know being part of that bombing raid deciding not to be part of it was in his view a good idea so he indicates right from that moment that he has distaste for the idea of that particular idea maybe not as a generality but that particular idea at that time was not for him but by the way just so people know he keeps talking about Cobra that's not a snake it's the cabinet office meeting rooms which have a very high security and are pretty much a Faraday cage so you can't get any communications in or out it's a bit tricky to use it but just so you know what he's talking about is the most secure place for a government official to be and talk so again he's putting down we were in this super high ranking super secure place and we've got and so what happens in his descriptors there his illustrators are really describing the jostling for position of is it the British people and COVID or is it Trump and the bombing raid the people like which way are we going to go so you get a bit of that and then he walks it forward a little bit and he's going to walk this forward and then down here comes the prime minister's girlfriend and the dog and so you got this lovely illustration clear illustration of how everything is jostling for position and ranking and the surreal nature of the times and the prime minister's girlfriend and the dog but having said all of that all of it wholly congruent though outlandish all of it completely congruent and I think you know this is one of the most extraordinary moments of this whole seven hours we're not showing you the whole seven hours of this this cabinet debrief but he is in his mind showing you the surreal and bizarre world of the most important decision makers in the UK making the most important decisions and exactly the surreal nature of what went on in this instance and from the look of it it's entirely credible this in his mind is exactly what happened and exactly the way it rolled out for him there that's what I got on that one so that's how the day started off with his thinking today is going to be all about COVID and whether or not we're going to announce the household quarantine we then got completely derailed because in the morning of the 12 suddenly the national security people came in and said Trump wants us to join a bombing campaign in the Middle East tonight we start having meetings about that through the day with COBRA as well so everything to do with COBRA that day was on COVID was completely disrupted because you had these two parallel sets of meetings you had the national security people running in and out talking about are we going to bomb the Middle East and we had the COBRA meeting being delayed and what not as we were trying to figure out are we going to do household quarantine and then to add to the it sounds so surreal it couldn't possibly be true that day the Times had run a huge story about the Prime Minister and his girlfriend and their dog and the Prime Minister's girlfriend was going completely crackers about this story and demanding that the press office deal with that so we had this sort of completely insane situation in which part of the building was saying are we going to bomb Iraq and the other thing was arguing about whether or not we're going to do quarantine or not do quarantine the Prime Minister has his girlfriend going crackers about something completely trivial we good? as I said we said on the 14th we are going to have to lock down we are going to have to get there as soon as we possibly can all of the you are being shown so we'll come back to the kind of logic the basic answer to your question is yes on the 14th we said to the Prime Minister you are going to have to lock down but there is no lock down plan it doesn't exist Sage haven't modelled it DH don't have a plan we are going to have to figure out and hack together a lock down plan that wasn't so much that you rejected your advice it was just that we weren't physically ready to proceed on that basis we needed longer to work out how you would do things like that is that the broad picture? sort of, essentially the Prime Minister quite reasonably this is like a scene from independence day with Jeff Goldblum saying the aliens are here and your whole plan is broken and you need a new plan that is what the scene was like that morning with Ben Warner in the Jeff Goldblum role he took the Prime Minister through all the graphs and through the NHS graphs and showed him the system is thinking that this is all weeks and weeks away you will be shown all of these graphs about time to peak of the epidemic in June but this is all completely wrong Greg what have you got? I know I am going to say this over and over and over but congruent messaging matters everything he is saying ties his hands are illustrating and we say that it is punctuating at any time if you pay attention you compare him to the other guy who is asking the question who has no reason to be incongruent they are almost identical their hands are moving at the right times delivering the right message he seems passionate to clarify these points if you notice he leans in and I don't mean leans in like trying to get small he is leaning in paying attention good eye contact moving his eyes when he can but he is also driving that point I almost curl back in the chair as he is leaning in to answer the question he is trying to get the information forward he is answering the questions in the same way the guy is asking it looks congruent I will leave it at that Chase what have you got? I think one thing that happens if I tell you that it was just like a scene from a movie that you have seen is I don't even need to describe anything I have instantly manufactured the tone the feeling the tone in the room where there is one smart guy and a bunch of idiots I don't need to say any of that I have manufactured that in your brain just by borrowing from one of your memories and he does a great job at doing this not that that is deceptive at all but that is the hallmark of great communication is knowing how I can shortcut describing something and making your brain visualize it and put yourself there I think a lot of what he is doing here and his leaning back and sitting up straight he is finally getting ready he is getting more comfortable with shining a really bright light in a very dark spot and I think that is starting to show some of his confidence as he said okay I have already left the gate I am out now and I am actually doing this and I don't think any of this any of this storytelling is a reduction of credibility Mark I think you are right good pickup there on the film reference because what Cummings is traditionally very good at is finding the popular currency to connect with the public and I think you have picked up there on a really good example of him laying down an idea that most people are going to get I mean who hasn't seen that film even if you haven't seen the whole film you have seen that that moment and even if you haven't seen it in that film you have seen it in all the other films which that film took that moment from just as you said Chase the smart guy who walks in when everything is crumbling and goes hey you got it all wrong let me bring you the piece of intelligence now that helps on this so good call on that one we see a lot of gestures from him but all congruent suppressive gestures detailed gestures like you were talking about there's got compartmentalization gestures even where he goes I'll come back to the logic of it in a moment and moves that to one side deletion gestures white clear gestures even he plays the presentation of the data as well and uses uses a prop so great storytelling from him you know I'd love to know what's going on in Jeremy Hunt's eyes at that point because Jeremy Hunt is wide-eyed and slightly targeted but not that narrow-eyed targeted it's kind of it could be one of Jeremy Hunt's jobs right now to attack and take down Cummings and I think he's leading to that but instead of being targeted he is a little wide-eyed and psychotic there I would suggest Scott what do you got there all right I'm gonna go back I'm gonna agree with all you guys this guy is a great communicator this is really good we're gonna go into everybody's points on what he's doing visually we talked about when it comes to communication a couple of shows ago we talked about how someone is either visual they'll be an audio person or they'll be a kinesthetic person as they reference situations people things as they explain things for example for audio that sounds good to me I hear what you're saying they'll catch words catch things in those terms kinesthetic person will say that makes me feel this way I feel it would be this she's a little rough around the edges but you know she's usually you know smoother as things go along then you have the visual person who talks about things from a visual perspective they'll talk about colors they'll say that shirt's a little bit they'll compare the same way I see what you're saying looks good to me that looks like something we would do in this case he's using pictures over and over and over as it continues to build this picture from a physical point of view for you as it goes through and that's really great communicators like Steve Jobs did this as well he would compare things he would take things like coffee he would say it would be it's like having nine lattes you could have this for 23 lattes or 23 cups of coffee and that's what he's doing is comparing the movie to a real life situation you're right chase that instantly pops you right in that thing it's a perfect analogy as well yeah so I think he's again I see all truthful here I don't see any there's no chink in his armor as far as being truthful here I think he's coming straight on and he's after he's out of the gate like Jay said he's coming full on he's like I'm in I've already jumped once you jump off a cliff you don't sort of kind of jump off you either jumped or you didn't and this guy jumped and he's getting ready I hope that shoot opens up as he's fallen so he must have one somewhere so he must know where some body is buried or something because this is a pretty ballsy statement I mean the things he's saying against the people who are running everything over there but I think he's telling the truth I don't see any deception whatsoever we said on the 14th we are going to have to lock down we are going to have to get there as soon as we possibly can all the you are being shown so we'll come back to the kind of logic the basic answer to your question is yes on the 14th we said to the Prime Minister you are going to have to lock down but there is no lock down plan it doesn't exist Sage haven't modelled it DH don't have a plan we are going to have to figure out and hack together a lock down plan so it wasn't so much that he rejected your advice it was just that we weren't physically ready to proceed on that basis and we needed longer to work up how you would do things like that is that the broad picture essentially the Prime Minister quite recently you know this was like this is like a scene from Independence Day with Jeff Goldblum saying the aliens are here and your whole plan is broken and you need a new plan with Ben Warner in the Jeff Goldblum role he took the Prime Minister through all the graphs and through the NHS graphs and showed him the system is thinking that this is all weeks and weeks and weeks away you'll be shown all of these graphs about time to peak of the epidemic in June but this is all completely wrong alright we got on that one yep I'm terribly sorry that I didn't do it earlier it just seemed like such a massive thing to it was almost surreal the whole experience and part of what me and Ben you know on the Friday night we were doing this and then the next morning when there was this kind of Jeff Goldblum seeing with Ben explaining things the whole thing just seemed like a kind of out of control movie and in retrospect it's clear that we should have acted earlier but at the time alright Greg I'm going to be short on this one again his hands are rising he goes through this whole thing asking for approval when he says I'm terribly sorry you get a little bit of the grief muscle a little bit of the sides of the mouth nodding and the the sides of the mouth dropping and the nodding is getting it out when people are talking and trying to get something out it's what I see but that asking for approval and then his hands go up on his head I don't know what we do anymore it's been a long time since I've been in the business but when you rescue hostages we put their hands on their heads so we know where their hands are at all times and I call that a hostage rescue you get to a point of helplessness your hands are in the air Mark you're going to have a much more eloquent term for it than I do but if I'm like and I'm suddenly thinking what am I doing with my hands in the air I find a place to put them and I think he's probably realizing hey I'm losing some credibility by it being this late for me to come out and say this so better answer look I don't think the guys 100% above board not worried about other people I'm just telling you that he's telling his story as he remembers it in today's words his truth and then he's at a point where he's got to do something with those hands that's what I see Scott what do you got he goes we see him again going back to that first apology video same set up there he's calm, he's small not a whole lot of illustrators going on there no illustrators really at the top he's got that soft tone of voices he goes through and then again like you said Greg a hint of that grief muscle and then when you see videos where something's gone wrong and you're helpless and this goes back to what you said Greg you can't do anything about it when you see people hit the the planes hit the building you'll see their hands go on top of their head you'll see someone make those basketball shots from a long shot and they're all waiting oh no same thing in American football if somebody intercepts whatever the critical moment it would be which you have an interception you'll see hands go right to the head as well that just shows I can't do anything about this I'm helpless and hands go to the head I think he's feeling that there and um I don't think they're rehearsed and I'm not seeing Greg what you're seeing where he may not be as honest about that maybe he's more concerned with himself at this point than those other people I mean motivation I'm not talking about whether he's being honest in what he's saying so I'm not seeing again mind short because I'm not seeing anything out of what we've seen so far everything just seems perfect with what's happened so far I believe him and I believe he was being truthful even a little bit of deception at all chase what he got yeah I want to call this the Chris Watts salute so that's what we're seeing he felt absolutely helpless you need to be in marketing man I'm telling you you need to be in marketing I know I'll tell you that all the time and advertising is a great spot dude you gotta do that let's talk about hold on I agree and I am kind of in marketing I'm the marketing director of the behavior panel there you go so that's helpless Chris Watts was helpless and I think he's reliving this time in his life when he just felt helpless I have noticed in my life during periods of helplessness people will make self contact in places they might be insecure about and I will notice that people especially men who are bald are usually not self conscious men who are losing their hair are self conscious so that becomes kind of a habitual thing to worry about that spot that's my observation I've never seen it in a single piece of research not saying it's accurate I don't think anything is deceptive here this is self soothing behavior and I think it's behavior that is reflective of the present or the recall recalling that emotion in the present moment and everything else is a little bit exaggerated but I think that's part of his communication style where he is selling the story and when I say selling that doesn't mean I'm delivering a load of crap when I say selling if I'm a good parent I can sell you need to get your homework done if I'm a good anything communicator I can sell I can sell an idea and that's what he's doing cool sorry Mark what do you got okay so to your point Greg I would categorize what he's doing here as a suppressive gesture in the ecstatic plane and it would denote to me extreme loss which is what you see when you know they you know the team gets a goal and then the referee disallows the goal everybody goes you know and because it's an extreme loss and just as Scott was saying there's nothing you can do about it and so you got to keep your head you got to keep your head on it's so it's such an extreme loss you've literally got to bolt your head back down sometimes you'll see people I block and turn right away they can't even look at the loss it's so extreme I think what he's talking about here is the loss to the British public this is a question around should he have advised the Prime Minister to lock down earlier you know it's not ironic it's odd that you know Cummings is an unelected advisor by choice of the Prime Minister and the select committee are going do you know what do you think you should have been a better unelected advisor and friend to the Prime Minister I'm not sure that's really the point here because you know the elected officials should be the decision should be coming down to them but ultimately they're saying could you have done a better job here Dominic and there's a motion in his voice there's suppression here and he is saying yeah I regret it I could have done a better job here and he's trying to keep his head on around this it's an extreme gesture you rarely see this gesture you'll see it a lot at sports games but you rarely see it in any conversation with anybody think about it you think about it when was the last time you saw another human being apart from our show today with you when did you last see that gesture you don't walk out on the streets and see that gesture every day now it is used you know often as a stress device as a submissive device when I was at school you know if you weren't if you were being a little bit errant a little bit naughty a little bit cheeky headmaster headmistress would say okay put your hands on your head Bowden and face the wall so and that was the way of I would face the wall and plan evil ways to get back at the headmaster and the headmistress that's just me for others it was a little more more suppressive it's hard to plan like this it's hard to turn to your friends and go should we get a plan together everybody it's just tough to do a lot of the usual thinking that you might want to do and a lot of the dexterous actions that you want to do if you like this so we don't see it often that's why it's so ordinary to see this that's why in the British papers that image there was one of the big images around this particular interview I think it's about extreme loss you know what I thought of the first thing I thought of when you were talking about that is on Wheel of Fortune when somebody hits the little bankrupt triangle thing and they're like oh god you can always see it there there's a video of like stock market tumbles and you'll see it traders on the floor and meanwhile they've been trading right up here in the heat of it right in the ecstatic the ecstatic zone and then the market crashes terrible cool everybody he's pretending to freeze I just that was really good that was good thanks I'm terribly sorry that I didn't do it earlier but it just seemed like such a massive thing to it was almost surreal the whole experience and part of what me and Ben you know on the Friday night we were doing this and then the next morning when there was this kind of Jeff Goldblum seeing with Ben explaining things the whole thing just seemed like a kind of out of control movie and in retrospect it's clear that we should have acted earlier but at the time quite a few people around Whitehall who thought that the real danger here was the economy the prime minister's view throughout January, February, March was as he said in many meetings the real danger here is not the disease but the real danger here is the measures that we take to deal with the disease and the economic destruction that will cause he had that view all the way through Greg, what do you got? I could sum this up quite simply he's looking down at the monitor but he's saying here's my head, go ahead and take it that's what I see in all of that body language Mark, what do you see? here's what I see I don't know how many hours but he's probably about four hours in to the debrief at this point so he's getting a bit tired he's he's tired and he can't even hold his own head up but there is something in that holding your head gesture which is synonymous I think with deflation desolation things being bleak and things being dismal and so it does fit with his bleak and dismal story of now he's talking about Boris the Prime Minister and the idea of Boris thinking more about economy than people more about money than people and I think either consciously or unconsciously he's wishing us to get the physical representation of isn't that a desolate idea dismal and bleak idea that your leader would care more about economy than he does about you I think that's what he's trying to get across but I can't say at this point whether it's conscious or unconscious it also could be unconscious because he's just tired by now and it's an inference that I can take from that if you look at some of Blake's yeah I think it would be Blake's etchings of the fall from heaven that's Lucifer falling from heaven by the time he's hit Earth been cast out from Earth he's like this on the Earth going that was a bad decision to go up against God on that one that really was wish I could take that one back so you know there's some and so I'll end up inferring all kinds of things that I've seen from all over the place to this could just be tired in this particular instance but Chase what do you think what do you go yeah there's not a lot of facial movement or facial expressions to suggest that this is guilt or shame or anything else and I think it's a self soothing behavior it's self contact self referential contact I think it's self soothing it's a pacifying behavior and this is the message of all politicians and I'm not saying it's false but it's I tried we made mistakes they screwed up and that's that's kind of the message overall here and all we're seeing here I think this is honest I think he's being forthright and forthcoming about most of this stuff but I do think there is absolutely a narrative associated with there's there's a desired outcome here that that is coming through Scott I agree with all of you I think we're everybody's hit hit a specific part of this looking at the same thing this is why it's interesting because we all see something from a different angle which is pretty much the same thing but we word it differently we add stuff to it in this case I think what we're seeing is a combination of him being tired and the can you can you believe this the part with his hand on the side of his face when you go I can't believe what's happening that kind of thing as he's resting but at the same time when he's talking about the problems being solved he's going to that section on his head what he did earlier has got his hand on there but everybody in here I believe we all even though we're all all of our takes on that a little bit different that's that's from my perspective what I'm saying is a combination of I can't believe it and still trying to work through it and solve the problem or whatever let's go back to that stuff that was on his hand so Chase you thought you think it's ink I do think it's ink because I was wondering what it was so I went back to the entire thing and I kind of just dragged the YouTube slider over until I saw the black mark show up and he's kind of holding his pin my pencil is really short but he's holding his pin kind of like that and fiddling with it back and forth so I think that's ink from that pin of his because what else could it be I can't imagine quite a few people around Whitehall who thought that the real danger here was the economy the prime minister's view throughout January, February, March was as he said in many meetings the real danger here is not the disease the real danger here is the measures that we take to deal with the disease and the economic destruction that that will cause he had that view all the way through what we ended up arguing was in fact if you try not to lock down you try and optimise for the short term economy you won't actually even get that because what will happen is the public will lock themselves down because they'll realise that there isn't going to be any NHS for anybody that was the reality and I think this point is even now is constantly lost in the scenario that we were heading for not only would you have had hundreds of thousands of deaths from COVID you have had absolutely no NHS at all for anybody your 70 year old daughter falls over and needs A&E there is no A&E for her you got cancer treatment there is no cancer treatment nothing Mark what do you got so on the fact is we see him come what I would call straight down the wheel plane so right down his centre line combine all of the points of view together and bring it to this consideration that the way that people wanted to go was the wrong way and they hadn't understood that the ramifications of the intervention which is the nature of behaviour which is whatever you're thinking of doing to intervene and cause the change chances are you have no idea what that is actually going to do so he speaks something to the chaos of behavioural interventions and you see him coming down that wheel plane to kind of hold this thing together then we get this incredible devastation gesture flattening gesture of absolutely no NHS that's the national health service which for the British the UK is a pinnacle of achievement it's something that the British society has really attached itself to as a huge achievement something which is important and uniquely British whether it's the right thing or the wrong thing it would be true to say you know the NHS is an icon and so what he's saying is the complete destruction of a British icon and what he's doing is attaching that destruction to Boris Johnson and so that's quite a big manoeuvre maybe not a bold manoeuvre for Dominic Cummings because he is a bold communicator and a bold politician this is the person who can work out the way to extract the UK from Europe that's a big move that's a big move you know when you can undo what Churchill started then that's quite a big thing to do so yeah very very bold storytelling there bold gestures but again none of it incongruent so none of it in my mind false or inaccurate in his mind a straight lie in his mind I think he's telling us straight down the line this is how I see it Scott what have you got on this one I agree with you 100% we're seeing it and it's a combination of everything we've seen up to this point because he's ending everything he's bringing it all down to the end I'm seeing nothing but him being truthful I don't see him deceit in here at all nothing I think he's just laying it out this way it is he's gone through to have to say this person is lying I'm throwing people on the bus I'm tattling on people all those things and not knowing what's going to happen to him after this which I don't if it's been bad or not if it's going to get bad for him I think he's being completely honest here and I think that's scary thinking all that was actually going on in a country that large and in the world it's kind of mind blowing when you think about it but that's what I'm saying it's just a combination of everything thing together so Chase what do you got yeah I think it's I absolutely agree with you guys I do think one interesting point is that he spent the whole video talking about how he cannot make any predictions and we couldn't have made any predictions and spends this video talking about how he's predicting what would have happened with absolute certainty and conviction he's very certain very convicted in what he's talking about and he is absolutely being truthful but I think he's also wanting you to visualize how catastrophic if we didn't do XYZ I want you to imagine dead children I want you to imagine hundreds of thousands I think that's literally the phrase hundreds of thousands of people dying so it's catastrophic it's very very dramatic and absolutely agree I think he is being truthful I think he does believe all of this stuff and there's no signs of deception here Greg the next time somebody does that don't say a word don't say a word whoever it is as it grows I was so profound for four seconds that was been so good okay go ahead in this entire thing he has talked about catastrophe and destitution all kinds of strong language but he has not been emphatic with his body language like he is with his hands here and he's driving home the point that failure of the national health system would be the most catastrophic possible thing and that's believable because it's congruent with his messaging he's demanding he's emphatic his brow rises at a request for approval around the uncertainty and helplessness of this whole thing and it all comes together so that he turns his face down into his right in what we would call an emotional kind of a glance all of this messaging is congruent like I said earlier I don't know his motivation not important what I can see is the messaging is truth from his angle whatever that is as I watch this whole thing I see an entirely congruent message from this entire thing and then an emphatic message at the worst possible thing because the economy and those other things to your point Mark would not be nearly as big a failure as hundreds of thousands of people dying or your national health system falling apart that's it congruent messaging what we ended up arguing was in fact if you try not to look down you try to you try and optimize for the short term economy you won't actually even get that because what will happen is the public will lock themselves down because they'll realize that there isn't going to be any NHS for anybody that was the reality and I think this point is even now is constantly lost in the scenario that we were heading for not only would you have had hundreds of thousands of deaths from Covid you would then have had absolutely no NHS at all for anybody your 70 year old daughter falls over and needs A&E there is no A&E for her you got cancer treatment there is no cancer treatment nothing alright well if you like what we're doing please subscribe and chase tell them why our statistics are telling us that there's around a 61.8245% chance that you haven't subscribed to the channel a lot of our videos are just like this except they're mostly people who are not telling the truth and we're going to show you exactly how to do that in your day to day conversations if you click that subscribe button it won't hurt a bit alright fellas this is a good one and I'll see you next time bye now that was good good I think the British people will thank you for it they'll enjoy that