 Hey, good morning, Tracy. Let me get the Okay, I'm slightly behind this morning. Let me get the host key Okay, I was just like Looking at an invite that I got and I was like, it's just the right day What is time over the holidays I don't know It's actually the first day of my time off. So I was like what day did they schedule is nice Welcome everybody to the December 7th hyper ledger technical oversight committee call But we do you have a few I think new people on the call So just to remind everybody we have two things that we have to abide by the first is the antitrust policy notice That is currently Displayed on the screen. So there are a number of people here from different organizations And we need to make sure that we are not participating in any activities that are prohibited under any of the Antitrust and competition laws across the world The second thing that we have to abide by is our code of conduct Everyone is welcome here, but we do have to abide by the code of conduct, which basically says to be respectful of others On the call their ideas and opinions and of course the code of conduct is linked in the agenda For announcements today We have the standard announcement of the hyper ledger dev weekly developer newsletter that goes out each Friday If you do want to include something in that newsletter, please do Leave a comment on the wiki page that is linked in the agenda The second announcement that we have is that we are canceling the to see meetings for the 21st 28th in January 4th We will we are planning a meeting next week as still so The existing to see is still responsible for today's call and next week's call and The new to see will be responsible starting at the beginning of the year on the I guess that would be the 11th of January, so Just for everybody's information Hopefully that's helpful but we do obviously welcome the the newly elected to see numbers to This week's call and next week's call so you can get a general idea of how these meetings are run and Of course, if there's any questions, please don't hesitate to ask Are there any other announcements that anybody would like to make? No, okay So we do have two quarterly reports. They are quite old bevel and so line I think we've only had five people at least the last time I looked to review these two reports So if you haven't looked at these reports yet, please do so that we can get these merged I think we said that we would need to have at least 50% of the TOC members taking a look at it before we could review or before we could merge so Please please please Make sure you take care of that as maybe potentially one of your last items before This term ends so that we can get those merged We do have two Reports. Oh before we get there. I didn't see any questions on bevel or so long but are there any questions that anybody has on those reports that we should make sure we get back to the the Maintainers on Okay So we do have two past two reports. We have the transact report that was due November 23rd This is a dormant project. We have not received a quarterly report at all in 2023 So I have this question here about whether we should move this project to end of life I Would love to hear some thoughts on an opinions on this particular item Peter I Just wanted to ask if anyone knows or remembers what was the latest communication from the maintainers Because I forgot sorry Yeah, I think you may have been the last one to communicate. Do you remember when we asked to communicate it with them? Right, so Last time when I reached out to the maintenance and then the conversation is on discord transact maintenance channel They wanted some more time to be in the common state And I guess it makes sense that we again reach out and see if and call out that as per the timelines it's been dormant for a while and Ask them if we need to move this to end of life They were waiting to move some of the code-based doors of the library for more in that into a deprecation state, right? Yeah, I just I figure since we haven't heard from them in a year it might be worthwhile that this actually does move out at dormant But yeah, Arun I guess you can reach out to them Although this may become a non a Non-issue if we do adopt Arno's new project life cycle Because it would become an archived project because my expectation is that if we adopt Arno's simplified life cycle than anything that's currently in dormant end of life and deprecated would go to an archive state So Arno, is that what you were thinking? Yes So very well may become which point Which is let less lethal because you can resurrect from archival and like end of life sounds pretty Irreversible Okay And then the second report this past year is cello it was due last week I have seen movement on the issue That has been put into the cello GitHub repo, so I know they're working on it, but we haven't yet received it So my expectation is that it will show up shortly and We'll just keep an eye on on that and make sure that doesn't become too Overdue if you will any other comments on the past year reports Okay, so upcoming reports today. We do have due the base you caliper and firefly So we will check in and see if those do show up today Please do be on the lookout for those so that you can review those when they do come in and Yeah, that's it for the Project reports any questions comments? Okay for discussion items today. I had completely forgot to add the life cycle simplification to The list I did do that this morning. I think that's important for us to discuss Dave's going to take us through the hyperledger fabric ecosystem And if we still have time remaining we will get to this toc 2023 Retrospective and if not this week we'll definitely get to it next week So let's start with the life cycle simplification. That is not it All right, so I think maybe just to make this easy This is probably the the place that we want to take a look. So I know did you want to talk to us about this? Sure. I mean, this is the easiest way to look at this. I think this image says it all in a way So, you know, it occurred to me the other day and I brought that up I said, well a life cycle is really complicated and I believe you know every time we had a Spatial case we felt like oh We need to have the state to handle this and so this is why we end up with these things fairly complex And in fact, you know based on experience I have with other organizations. I realized You know part of this has to do with this what I was just talking about earlier, which is end of life Is really terminal. There is no recovery And so instead a lot of other foundations use as you know the normal final state archived which has the nice characteristic of being reversible So there may be cases where you say well, you know what we want to earn archivies and you know And so I think that removes a lot of the fear of moving things to end of life, you know Instead we can be a bit more casual and because it's not as lethal as I was saying earlier So essentially it simplifies a lot the the the life cycle as Tracy was saying basically we collapse dormant deprecated an end of life into this new state called archived and So there are different circumstances under which we you know all of the things that made us move to dormant deprecated an end of life now falls into what you know makes us move to Move a project to archived And at the same time we have the possibility if somebody wants to and applies for it to We to revive an archived project Similar to what we said before with dormant if you resurrect from archived You go back to incubation whether you were graduated or not before and And that's pretty much it. So in all you know fairness that I do want to point out that deprecated You know was introduced with this idea that this is a plan end of life kind of thing where we said Hey, we are not going to keep maintaining these maintaining this technology There's other ways you should do this and it was a strong way of signaling to the community Don't Rely on this you need to figure out a transition plan out of the off of this technology In this case, we lose a little bit of this because not built into it that Well, if that's what you want before archiving the project, you should really Have your own kind of deprecation Process where essentially I would expect a project to publish on the read me, you know Watch out. We are about to archive this project And and all the things that were done as part of the deprecation They would be handled as a pre archival process And of course the talk can decide to do this I also soften a little bit if you go into the details just to highlight one key difference also was a bit Trying to anticipate You know, I I said should rather than last kind of thing at least in one place I can't remember right now, but what I wanted to to handle this, you know, there are things A lot of the current process Kind of expect people to be there and be able to act according to the process And in fact, I wanted to allow for the possibility that well, maybe all the maintainers are gone And we can't even ask them to do what you know to keep maintaining a project for a while or anything and and we see that right I mean in the case of transact, for instance, it's hard to know what's going on and so on So the talk may just have to bite the bullet and and move things to archive And so the the language has changed a little bit in that regard To try to say yeah, if possible, we will do those things, but you know, we the the process allows for other ways in case More radical approach You know, is necessary That's really what it's all about Right Rama Thank you so Yeah, we've had this discussion about simplifying the Life cycle diagram since we started working on the life cycle and badging task force. So Thanks. I'll know for putting the diagram together. Just couple of questions or a couple of comments in the I had I'd made a separate diagram if you look at the Uh, the file I created and in the wiki as well. I added an arrow from graduated back to incubation, which was means of Telling a project that they have a graduate project that they have slipped in the standards and maybe they should, you know Try to require the graduate and graduation potential. So That that is one thing we can might want to add it's Let's discuss that another thing. Uh, I just wonder if Graduated archive, uh, if you just have a direct transition, that's not too drastic When archived has a specific connotation and get a project, right? It means that your code basically comes read only And it means if anybody looks at an archived project, uh, they might think that this project is not Necessarily worth using anymore. They should go and look somewhere else Which may not be the case for a project which let's say Still has much to offer people but just that the developers have been inactive for a while. Um, you know, which would reflect the government state So Maybe we could consider having just one state between graduate and archive. I don't know what the polyp to So for your first, uh, point I did ask the same question about can a project move back From graduated back to incubated, right? Because I knew that we had discussed that in the project Project life cycle badging task force. Um, I also think that One of the things that We've introduced this past year is the project annual review And during that annual review Part of that is supposed to take a look at what is the right state of the project, right? This is something that the governing board actually asked For the the toc to make sure was part of that project annual review is ensuring that the correct state is reflected in the Or for the project so I I Um in agreement, I think with potentially adding an arrow that goes from graduated back to incubated um So I don't I don't know what others thoughts are let's start with that particular question that we'll move on to your second question Rama Thanks, so just to quickly respond on about the state of the project. I think If we do, uh, if you're disciplined about issuing badges and reviewing the criteria then Uh, the set of badges the project has should automatically start it into one of these states, right? That's what you've been discussing before Yeah, other Yeah, so I understand why you asked this Tracy and I you know you asked What about this and I didn't know what you meant is that's why I say well, right? Yeah, and the proposal. He doesn't say that would happen, but I I can see how that could be useful indeed Okay Now I was wondering I mean how often Did this happen in the past that we had a graduated project which then fall back to incubation mode and then Did a few of those cycles did this ever happen? Uh, we haven't allowed that to happen. Um, it probably should have happened for some of our projects But it has never happened because it wasn't an option, right? If you look at this, it was always a forward forward movement in the life cycle Okay, then let me re ask the question slightly differently. I mean, did we ever have this situation where a project went to From graduated to dormant then back to incubation and then back to graduated We've never had a project, uh, re Or to have a comeback from dormant Okay, so I mean maybe this is then just a corner case, which is As we I mean as you identified and also rum as well is not really well reflected in the new life cycle However, if this is really the case, I mean you can always go to archives And then directly into incubation, right without making the graph More complicated than it actually should be for this corner case, right? Uh Go ahead on I think that's the question, you know Is the motivation here for the talk to be able to really act in such a way that We're going to do a review of all the project and there may be graduated project. We say, you know what? You're not archivable, you know, you're not being archived yet, but We definitely don't think you qualify as a graduated project anymore. We're going to degrade to you know Yeah Demote you to incubation. I don't know that. Is that what you say that the board wants us to do? Yeah, so the board what the board wants is for projects to be accurately reflected as to the state that they're in right, um You know, I think before we had instead of graduated we had active right here um Because you know what we were trying to reflect is that you know, it was a one time event You graduate it. Of course, you can't ever ungraduate if you will Um, so, you know potentially this is the wrong name if we're going to have this ability to move backwards Um in the life cycle, which we haven't had before but I do think that it is part of this annual review life cycle to make sure that's uh projects are Statuses of projects are reflective of what they actually are So that people know, um, you know Do we still have three unique organizations that are supporting this project or have we gone? Backwards in that and so we should really move it back to what is an incubation state where we're looking for more people to come participate because I think part of the reason that we have these states of dormant and end of life is because We know that the project is starting to Lose interest from the existing maintainers right because they've moved on to something else Or whatever the case may be and what we're really looking for is for this Backward to incubation to actually happen because we're looking for more people to come in and support that project um, you know, if you think about this the status of Uh Hyperledger explore right it went to an end of life. It came back as a lab um, you know, maybe It could have went back to incubation right coming from an archive back to incubation Um, depending on whether or not it met the criteria of incubation So I think there's there's this desire or need for people to really understand what the status of a project is and In addition to be able to help projects when they're starting to lose that momentum to to bring that momentum back to those projects Marcus Well, I mean, I really like this the simplified view of this life cycle here and I mean what what you're trying um, basically to I mean add back to to this um graph is Essentially I mean some kind of meta states, right? I mean I can mention that I mean just in addition to that I mean without changing the life cycle grab the new one here. I mean you can basically Assign, I don't know a color to the Graduated state like red flag saying okay something is wrong here We don't have enough organizations working on contributing to this project Yellow is I don't know something in the middle and green everything is good And then we could report. Okay, the following projects graduated projects are The following and everyone is in the green state or attention one of the projects is currently Yeah, not so well, but still some people are working on it And without putting it back to incubation mode. I mean there's always still the chance that Since it's graduated already it might attract other organizations to join in Thanks Marcus Arnau Yeah, so I I don't know that changing the label is what's going to make people You know pay more attention and want to contribute from that point of view You know, I'm not sure whether you know, I think we want to more properly reflect What's going on in the project and allow this Adding one arrow. I think doesn't complicate over complicated Diagram, even though I really like the simplicity of what I came up with I think it would then be too restrictive to add an arrow back from graduating to incubation Okay, Peter to me It sounds like what the board is looking for is a health check That is more expressive than The current health check that we have at least in my mind currently the health check is the quarterly reports so to me it sounds like However, we configure the arrows and the boxes and the labels on this diagram Won't really be Enough because there was one key thing that was mentioned And That we want to be able to catch The state change when it begins as in When the existing maintainers start to lose interest and they don't have time or or anything else that has prevented them from actually being fully dedicated to it as they were before and this is uh In my opinion at a different level of granularity of a view that It requires compared to the state diagram So what I would think about is Breaking off this conversation into two parts one is the diagram which is fairly high level and it kind of just represents the end conclusions of The longer periods of decision-making Where is the health check the one that Captures the leading edge the come-up of of these processes where where project Starts to be a little bit dormant That's uh, it could be a different process Yeah, and I think that's part of what's been happening in the badging Uh life cycle task force. So, um You know, I have a feeling that this isn't the end of this discussion. Obviously if we move forward with this, so Um, completely agree, peter Yalco welcome, um Happy to have you here and I would love to hear what you've got to say about this Thanks, uh, I think I actually so marcos. I think mentioned that What if graduated could have colors or something, right? Yep So I think similarly but a bit more Intensely in in in the in the fact in the sense that Only having graduated doesn't let us distinguish between projects which have for example, they are graduated by but Heavy development is is being ongoing. There are still there are still lots of things being shaped Think for example fabric version 1.2 Until fabric version 1.4 lots of features were added but think It's another Alternative universe where for example fabric is graduated, but For example, no development has been done in the last several years, right? I think we also had some certain years Like that in fabric. So in my opinion It should be better if we if we can distinguish Distinguish distinguish between Graduated and dormant, but I'm not sure that Dormant is the best word Describing mainly we can pick two words for graduating dormant that would reflect The amount of activity in the project And I think this is rama's second point that he was bringing up. So rama Yeah, exactly. That's that's what I was going to say also just going quickly at what yako said the project, I mean yako, I think If a project does The project can still be maintained without adding new features, right? I mean if if you see a constant stream of Buck fixes that means that people are still working on the project So it doesn't necessarily have to be just to feature new feature development, right? That would still cause That would still mean that the project can remain in graduate street because people are actively maintaining it So I you know This is how we got to where what we have today is you know, we wanted to To try to capture every possible case and The downside is it makes for a pretty complicated life cycle I think you know the kind of situations you guys are talking about Can be addressed in other ways and You know, there's a balance. I mean, you know You can think of this as you know, you could say forget all of this This is going too fast and I did mention that he would comment by the way because I was like, okay This is maybe too radical of a change You know the the simplest change is to change end of life to archive so you can resurrect a project But then you add a bunch of arrows back and you're like, oh my god, I was that making things simpler So that's why I said well, you know next you could say well, do we really need deprecated? This can be handled by adding the proper You know text on the read me page of the project in the main repo to say Hey, be careful, you know and dormant is similar. It's like we could the talk, right? we have The admins Right access to every repo if something is dormant we can go put the the top of the read me watch out this You know this repo has not been active for some some and so much time, right and so My point is I you know, I hear some of the the I and I think they are valid. Don't get me wrong I think this valid that there is a lot of subtlety. We might want to convey I just don't think that adding a different state for every possible Use, you know situation a project can be in is necessarily the right way to communicate that So I'm going to jump in before you do Stephen because I have a very radical Thought here What if our life cycle was proposal project archive and then in project? We had a bunch of badges that we would assign to those projects so that people could really understand the state of project While you noodle on that one. Let's see what Stephen has to say Thank you, Tracy. Now. I don't feel so radical anymore Um, I I think that's I mean, I think part of what we're saying here is what the badges are trying to accomplish is a more nuanced view of the Of the of the project The state within the project. So I think that's a good thing. Yes I think the I think it does make sense to have a post graduated state Um, I agree it doesn't need to have two dormant and deprecated But I think it's useful to have one state between graduate and end of life That says that basically says to the world. Hey um Something has changed here such that the existing maintainers cannot Continue if you are interested in this you better jump in and and it gives a message that allows for Um ahead of ahead of end of life in it or archiving it, which I think I see is the same thing Um a heads up that those that are really interested could make an effort to continue it um What I I all I think Uh, so very similar to what um Arno has except adding There's no path back from end of life Um, but there is an you know, there is a state in between whatever you want to call it Um where it can be done if anyone wants to take an end of life project and revive it It comes back to you know, it's a new project as far as anyone's concerned So I don't think that really matters, but I think sending the message to the to the ecosystem. Hey The existing maintainers aren't going to work on it anymore if anyone wants to take over if anyone wants to take action Do so now Otherwise we're going to move this to end of life um that that all said I think the um The incubation versus graduated I'm open to that Tracy and um the badges I think is what What is being looked for? um generally I think the The nuanced um traffic light On a on a series of of attributes of a of a project or what they're looking for versus the quarterly reports All right. Thanks, Stephen Peter I Just random thought about What Tracy and Arno said do you have badges for the graduated projects? first thing I agree second because When I heard all of that being said what came to my mind is that maybe We should have the badging figured out and then Make that part of this picture so that we can discuss in earnest What information would be possible to be represented in graduated? because right now Everyone's going off a little bit on hypotheticals of but what if what if this what if that? And we could more definitely Or definitively discuss those edge cases and hypotheticals If we already had the badging figured out or at least to a current state where we can vote on it And then it would be a part of this in the sense that Half of the questions that we ask ourselves now would be just implicitly answered by oh look there's that badge There's this and that's how that would work All right. Thank you Rama Yeah, I was trying to I was thinking there's a way to reconcile the two variations to the diagram we've been discussing one is demotion of graduation to incubation another adding an intermediate state between graduated and archive if we just If you don't add another state and if you just add the graduated to incubation state what what we can say there is Anytime a graduated project slips in whatever way we just demoted back to incubation And if project cannot even meet the minimum criteria for an incubated project, we just archive it So I think that will save us the Trouble of trying to come up with a name a new name for a for an intermediate state between graduated and archive and it will also Fulfill the the goal of Telling maintenance of graduate project that they have slipped in standard Yeah, I Also on separately on your radical proposal. Personally. I I prefer this. I think I would say at least if I had to vote on it. I like At least a decision to be incubated graduated All right. Thanks Rama. Hello Yeah, just one quick comment slash question is like, you know, I I realized when you guys were talking, you know It some of you clearly have more faith in the value of those states in communicating to the You know world out there Then I do and I don't know whether you're right or wrong or I My assumptions are right or wrong I it'd be interesting if people have some information in this regard How many people out there who are not part of the hyperledger community? depend on this stage You know on this state whether it's a project is labeled as graduated incubation or whatnot to to to decide on anything. I honestly don't know I my mental model honestly was You know, if people are going to go to the repo and they're going to see Oh, this is there is some read me that says we are a graduated project or we are You know, there's a dormant state because nothing is happening. But I may be wrong. This may still have some value I So I just wanted to share that because I think it does kind of You know, depending on the way you answer that question It does have an impact on whether this is important or not Yeah, uh, I know I know at some point I have heard people actually say well, that's not a graduated project. So I won't use it right, um Which then implies that these things have meaning which is why in my mind maybe the right Step is my radical approach. Um, but Yeah, well, I mean we're not there yet. I guess bobby Hi, tracy. Thank you. Um far now. I love the simplified View I cannot wait to put it in the edX course once we vote on it Hopefully it will pass My question more is uh with the badging who's going to be responsible for Updating those traffic lights and is it the toc? Is it the maintainers? Do the maintainers know that would they have to be trained on that? Or is it the staff at hyper ledger? Like how do you see that badging actually working? Moving forward with the projects like who would be responsible for that? Yeah, so bobby one of the things that we've been discussing in the badging life cycle pass force is What badges can be automated so that we don't have to Have somebody who's responsible for this Um, we have found that there are certain badges that can be automated But there are certain things that cannot be automated and so, you know the the Your question is a good one part of what we've talked about is the maintainers requesting that badge um, that is not Automatable if you will, but uh, yeah, I don't think we've necessarily come to any great answers on that yet but That's at least the current thinking Roma, did I get that right? Yep, I think that's accurate Okay All right, so we've spent a good portion of time talking about this Do we want to vote on this? Are we ready to vote on this? Are we wanting to take this back to the The drawing board and and play with it some more. What's what's the current thinking? Anybody who thinks we're not ready to vote for this. Let's start there Well, good question There are different options that have been discussed and I I don't know that this is the simple yes or no Okay, Stephen Yeah, I I agree and I was gonna ask is part of the the badges um working group considering the state As well. Is that part of their mandate? Roma Can we just create uh slight variations of this diagram based on the options you've discussed and then ask people to vote on the choices Yes, sure we can do that. Um, yeah Yeah, that's a good idea. Yeah, I think uh, We have been somewhat discussing that in the badging life cycle. I don't think we necessarily come to any sort of conclusions, but uh, yeah We can definitely take and create some different options and have a discussion a further discussion on this Everyone Yeah, I think that's a better way to proceed indeed Even you were gonna say Everyone warm up your graph making skills You can we can do this Well, I I don't know. Is this something that you want to take? Is this something you want me to take? What do you what's the What's the idea? I don't know how many variations you guys want that's the problem. So so I have heard Uh I think the arrow back I can I can do that Yeah, okay, I've got that variation. I've got your variation. I've got one that is my radical variation I've got one that's a variation that has um A fifth state in it, uh between graduated and archived those are the variations that I've heard So if it's just doing the graphics not updating like you're making four different prs I can play with the graphics. I Started to learn this graph these things. She's kind of interesting to see the least All right, sometimes you come up with some weird looking hours and stuff, but yes, I can play a little bit more with this All right, we'll let you play with that. Um and come back to us with the the different options that we can discuss Okay Thank you Arna All right. Um, so the next item on our agenda uh is Dave Your particular item on the hyperledger fabric ecosystem Do you want to do that today? Uh, yeah, I think we can do that in 15 minutes at least get a good start on it. I can go ahead and share Yep And then we can take a look at the retrospective next week Okay, so This ecosystem is something we created for the member summit and we discussed there The I think one of the main objectives was to help people coming to the community figure out What the ecosystem is so they would come into the community and they'd start asking around and They would eventually find there was a set of projects a set of sub projects a set of labs and It was a fairly long list and it still is we've archived a few of them But it's still a pretty big list and so the idea is Having a curated list so the curated is the key word here And that raises some questions, you know, like curated by who and under what criteria And we can come to that at the end I guess but I first wanted to kind of demonstrate what we came up with Coming into the member summit and at the member summit So what we decided to do is break it into several areas One like getting started for new people coming in one for application view of the projects One that was a Deployment and specifically docker based deployment view of the projects One that was kubernetes or a production view of the projects And then management and operations projects that could be related to Either the docker or the kubernetes deployments or they're agnostic to the deployment environments And I think this is a good way to frame it I won't go through each and every one of these But I will say that they like let's zoom in on the application one It does Take a pass that across projects sub projects and labs Again, these are the active Projects that I would say the maintainers I don't know if I want to put the word recommend out there, but it's definitely the active list so we can see there's Like the stks. We've indicated that the legacy stks are deprecated And now if you're building an application stk that the recommendation would be would be to use the new fabric gateway stks So we've got the stk the application stks the chain codes Uh, a few other things like this hlf connector that that seemed fairly interesting and active That exposed chain codes via reservice or kafka messaging And then we also have what I would call application frameworks. So these are things like firefly The smart client and the token stk And then finally under the applications space we have cacti Which showcases that you can interrupt between fabric and other dlt such as basu and corda Let's see. So I could now that I've given you an overview. I can we can Open it up for any initial comments or questions before I drill into the other other parts David has his hand raised Just one quick comment Dave. Thank you very much for putting this together I mean I was at that member summit session so I can just share a couple observations I think this is very very useful for a variety reasons The one I was really interested in that session to realize That even people who have been in the community for a fairly long time didn't even know about much Many of the things on here. So I think just Making that curated list and raising the visibility Is incredibly helpful. Um, I mean there's a lot going on in labs, for example And it's hard to really know everything that's there and you know You'd have to do a lot of digging to find all this stuff on your own And so, you know, I think it's very useful for that And so and we also heard from people who have just recently started getting Going with fabric and when they have found some of these things on here, you know They said it was very helpful like it shaved days off You know work they had to do, you know finding some of these tools So I think just raising the visibility is very helpful And so thank you Dave for putting this together and this might be help this sort of an ecosystem mapping might be helpful You know for other parts of the hyperledger community as well. So this is a great model. I think for others to look at Okay. Thanks, David other early comments Okay, so let me keep going. I can talk a little bit about the docker and kubernetes views of this Um, so several of the projects out there were docker based ways to bring up a fabric network Um, there was in this area There's probably the most overlap between the projects And we've settled some of that by archiving some of the projects like many fab used to be on this list But now it's off. I forget if we've actually are formally archived that project But it definitely has not been active in the past year. So if it's not archived officially, I think that's a good direction to go Um, and then we we have the opportunity here to highlight some of the differences between these different things. So micro fab Um Is a single docker container which whereas the other ones I say end containers it just means there's multiple containers in the network and the the Ramification here is that you can use micro fab for Development environments. So if you're developing chain code And you don't really care about all the pieces and managing all the pieces. This is a good one to use It's a it's a single container and you can easily bring up Deploy and test chain code with this Whereas the other ones there's multiple containers and there's different things you might want to do So if you're just wanting to play around with Fabric concepts understand fabric concepts to play with the tutorials and samples you would probably use the test network But if you want to bring up Your own network with your own set of organizations and see how that works You might use fab load because here you can specify a network specify the organizations and it'll spin up the docker composed network Whereas with cello it also supports end containers and also supports the deployment to docker swarm So I say I put the words development and test here lightly because you could use this in a production environment with docker swarm in fact But there is some overlap here. I think we still I talked to david about this We probably still want to figure out maybe talk to the fab load maintainers and the cello maintainers and see if there's Enough difference to keep both of these or if they could collaborate and combine efforts And bring these projects together to make it a little bit even more obvious to people which ones to use And then the other thing I'll highlight is that you can use things like the blockchain explorer the operations council and the the opt system chain code Depending regardless of the deployment. So you'll see the same names of projects here on the kubernetes view So the main thing I want to highlight on the kubernetes view or that is the two pink projects. Those are the two main kubernetes kubernetes operators for fabric So there's the bevel operator for fabric that obviously works with the bevel deployment framework And then there's the fabric operator that doesn't work with bevel But it powers the ibm blockchain platform that people might be aware of that And so I wanted to clue people in which one that is But again the other management management Utilities like the explorer and the ops system chain code Can work with either of these Do highlight that the what's called the fabric ansible collection Uh will help you deploy the fabric operator in the operations console Uh and then down below we have the Projects that are what I say are agnostic to deployment environments of the ops console the admin sdk the operations smart contract And the blockchain explorer can really be used with any type of Uh fabric deployment So I think it really does help um people get a mental framework of what the what the different projects are where they sit What they might be used for And then I guess the point I wanted to come back to at the end here if there's other if there's no other comments is this this idea of a curated list so Who could best curate this going forward? Is it You know anybody I mean theoretically anybody can come here on the wiki and add their own favorite project Even if it's not that active. So do we want to have the project maintainers kind of keep an eye on this? And what criteria should we utilize so? You know, I don't mind doing this In my free time If that's the decision But I also wanted to leave it up for discussion here of whether we wanted to have a more Formalized approach and if we do this for other projects, you know, how might they make these decisions? Yes, Dave. I have a Comment I guess on the kubernetes piece Um, you have bevel operator fabric, but you don't have hyper ledger bevel as a mechanism to deploy um the The fabric network to kubernetes Right without using the operator per se. So I don't know how that fits in here, but uh Oh, so I didn't even know that was an option so you can use bevel without the bevel operator Yes, at least you could I think that's still the case. We should probably check with sonar, but I'm pretty sure that's still the case That's right Okay, you just wrecked my mental model. We'll have to figure out how to How to squeeze that in here. I think it you know, is that the management applications? I don't know. Um But uh, yeah, anyway, but yeah, that's one of the points here is For the for these gaps that we identify we can figure out how to deal with that so I can talk to Sonak Yeah, sounds good Um, and yeah as far as who curates it. I don't know that I have a good answer for that. Um You know, obviously There's somebody who needs to be aware of everything that's going on in the fabric ecosystem and that could potentially be a challenge Right, I obviously it took a while to get here. So It's it's interesting to try and figure out who knows what maybe there's a set of people in the fabric area that can be Part of the curators and then people come to you and say like hey I've got this and then you have a conversation about What it is and the status of it and where it fits. I don't know Any other ideas from anybody? Yeah, having to be a community effort makes sense I mean I wouldn't I would hesitate to call it like a task force or something But maybe there's some sort of a shared ownership model here It would be hard for one person to know everything I think So, you know having a group of people around this would be great Marcus Yeah, I think this is a great list. Um, I mean you see those lists on on github quite often. I don't know awesome list X awesome list z right which is essentially the same concept. Um, and I think I mean I don't think that the one The person or the the group of people maintaining this list that they need to have Always the the complete overview of the entire ecosystem. What's going on there and go actively in searching for new things But so what maybe this list that should also contain some in the end? The describing in one paragraph The way how to contribute new project to this list and then the maintainers receive. I don't know The pull request an email or whatever they can review and then add a new Um Project to this list Okay, and that kind of gets to the other question about where to keep this is Do people think this is good on the weekend? I know we're trying to maybe phase out the wiki over time and move everything to github um And at least when we were creating this it was good to have a space that we could collaborate easily um a little bit more easier than than pull requests, but Maybe this should go To github, but then the question is which project like we tried to keep fabric core Scope to fabric core and not all these other things um And then there's things like the governance github and To see github. I didn't know if it made sense there either So in happening, um I don't see why this should go into github or at least we're not clear on which repository I also would would like to say that While this list seems very nice, uh, and I'm obviously they've invested a Substantial amount of work making it. I think Um, there is one one one problem in in in the list and that is we're not sure Or at least it's not written here the maturity level and the maintenance level of all these projects because If we put on such a list on some official public website Then people might might assume that okay all projects here are maintained. They are supported if I ask about them On discord or on github, uh, I will get some answers and have which is not the case because I know for That at least some of the projects here the people that that work on them. They're long gone. So I think we should add We should add or at least track each each if we are putting such a list which we should we should then do due diligence and and and track for each project its level its level of support and maturity Right, that's the challenge at the end of the day if we have a a subset list like this that's curated It's going to be basically an opinion whether that's an opinion of one person like me or A committee or group of people like the maintainers Um, we can figure that out. But yeah, that is the main challenge Um, what's the criteria for things getting on this list or falling off this list? I tried to do a cut, you know based on project activity. So I looked at commits like some of the Projects that I wasn't quite familiar with I looked at the commits and if there was commits, you know In a lot of the months this year. I put it on the list if there wasn't I excluded from the list But yeah, that'll that'll be the main challenge of how to keeping how to keep this up to date going forward Okay, um, so that sounds like a further discussion that we need to have I do see that we are over times Um, so I want to make sure that we're respectful of people's time, but thank you Dave for presenting this Thank you everybody for the great conversation today. I'm looking forward to continuing these conversations Next week and into next year. So we will see you again next week Okay, thank you. Thank you. Bye next