 This is the 94th episode of Patterson in Pursuit, a very, very special Bitcoin edition. So like everybody else for the past many years as a Bitcoiner, I've been fascinated by stories of Bitcoin's origins. Who the heck is Satoshi Nakamoto? And how was he able to keep private for so many years after developing this world-changing technology we still don't know who he is? Well recently I hadn't found a story that was overwhelmingly convincing. There's little bits and pieces there out there online. I thought maybe this is the case, maybe that's the case. But now over the past few months that's changed. I feel much more confident in saying, hmm, we might be getting down to the real truth with regards to the creation of Bitcoin and the real identity of Satoshi Nakamoto. It sounds funny after having been in this space for several years. I wrote my first book about Bitcoin back in 2014. Everybody knows you can't claim you've discovered who Satoshi Nakamoto is, that's a recipe for a disaster. But all right, I'm putting my hat in the ring. I think I actually feel pretty confident. And after this interview you might as well. So all of this started when I stumbled across an article online called Bitcoin Origins and I'll have a link to that article in the description of this video. And it lays out a remarkable story. Maybe it's fan fiction, maybe not. The story is not just of the historical origins of Bitcoin. Anybody could come up with that type of story, just random historical facts. No, what I found very unique about this story is that it was not documenting the history as much as the thought process that went into creating the Bitcoin technology. The thought process that's required to make a breakthrough discovery. That's not something you can easily fake. And the way that the author described it sounded very compelling. It included things like challenging everybody's assumptions that had been made in that industry forever. And trying to reconstruct your own belief system from scratch and see if you could solve these problems that nobody else has been able to solve. Things that sound very compelling to me. And he wrote about it in a way that I thought this story has legs. Who the heck wrote this? The author is a guy named Phil Wilson who has gone by the internet handle Scranti. And I reached out to Phil to talk to him to explore these ideas. And we had a little conversation and decided to do a set of interviews. After these interviews, I guess I'll give you my conclusion. I think that Phil Wilson is the real Satoshi Nakamoto, the one that comes to mind when most people think about Satoshi. And there's a few reasons why I say that. Before I tell you exactly why, I want to preface what you're about to listen to. So Phil and I have had many hours of conversation over the past couple of months. You're about to listen to seven hours worth of recorded conversation on Skype. This is only from two sessions of talking with him because he and I got going talking about quite a lot of different things. So we had very long conversations. But I was going to release this as a series of interviews, long story short. That's not going to happen. It's all going to be one monolithic seven-hour block that you guys can sort through and listen to and hopefully enjoy. Even if this is fan fiction, I think you guys will at least enjoy incredible storytelling. If you're somewhat familiar with the drama around the identity of Satoshi Nakamoto, you undoubtedly know one of the great enigmas in the current space is the existence of Craig Wright. Who the heck is Craig Wright? And how is it possible that people like Gavin Andresen were convinced, and maybe still are convinced, that Craig is Satoshi Nakamoto? Craig seems to say a lot of things that are crazy, that are wrong, that are poorly written and poorly articulated, seems like kind of a dickhead. Is that really Satoshi Nakamoto? How could he have fooled somebody so prominent like Gavin Andresen? Well, that is explained with perfect satisfaction within Phil Wilson's story. In fact, I think even Gavin Andresen and maybe people like Ian Grig, who have for good reason thought that Craig Wright is Satoshi Nakamoto, may actually be persuaded by Phil's story because it accords with their experiences. So if you remember, Gavin Andresen claimed that Craig Wright signed a message in front of him using the Satoshi Keys to do so. It's a very reasonable conclusion to think, well, if somebody signs with the Satoshi Keys, they are Satoshi. Of course, that's very natural. Even if it's the case that the public drama and public proofs that this individual has given are terrible, that might be very confusing, but if somebody does something in front of you in private, you're going to say, well, I still think this person's Satoshi because they gave me cryptographic proof. Well, what if it's the case that Craig Wright actually does have the keys of Satoshi Nakamoto and is not the real Satoshi Nakamoto? What if people like Calvin Ayer, who I presume have also had a personal demonstration that the Satoshi Keys are in the possession of Craig Wright? What if Calvin's telling the truth? What if Gavin's telling the truth? What if people like Ian Grig actually were in communication with Craig Wright? Craig Wright talking about the project that he's working on, it comes out when he says it's going to come out, and naturally Ian thinks, well, this person is actually Satoshi Nakamoto. What if all of those people's stories are correct and it's still the case that Craig Wright is not the real Satoshi and may not even fundamentally grasp the concepts involved in the Bitcoin system? How's that possible? Well, that is part of the story that Phil Wilson tells. Reason is because Craig Wright is a part of Satoshi Nakamoto. He's one part, but he's not the most important part. Phil Wilson, I believe, is the brains of the Satoshi Nakamoto team. This answers a number of questions. For example, Satoshi Nakamoto had universal admiration for his operational security. Somehow he disappeared. How is it possible that somebody could create something so massive and successfully disappear? His operational security was 10 out of 10. Maybe that was possible because Satoshi Nakamoto was working through surrogates. Some of the surrogates might not have even known who he was. If Craig Wright was in fact a surrogate of Satoshi Nakamoto, Craig is going to have both access to Satoshi's keys, Genesis block keys. He's going to have inside information about the creation of Bitcoin. He's going to be able to personally persuade and convince those who are around at the time because he also was around at the time. And yet he might simply be one part trying to claim credit for an invention that he did not create. If Satoshi Nakamoto left the Bitcoin project, and if Craig didn't know that he was still alive or still existed, it might be that that is an explanation for why Craig found the opportunity to pass himself off as Satoshi Nakamoto. Again, this is speculation. I don't know. This is a story that you're about to hear. But it sure sows up a lot of loose ends. Now, a few things to note before the interview begins. First of all, it's very tempting to project your own political bias onto the mythology of Satoshi Nakamoto. If you guys have consumed my content for a bit, you know I'm a very radical libertarian. A lot of us radical libertarians latched onto Bitcoin very early on and we have mythologized the character of Satoshi Nakamoto as essentially a radical anarchist. And maybe he wasn't. Maybe there was not an information to make that conclusion. I'm not saying Phil Wilson is not a libertarian. He certainly has some of those tendencies. But he's definitely not a purist. And that might strike some people as odd because you start believing the mythology rather than perhaps what was reality. Second, you'll notice that these are two interviews. I believe it was about a month apart. So some of the content is repetitive. I'm sure he's been talking with many people and I didn't remember all the details of our conversation as soon as we had the next one. So there is some repetition between them. What you'll hear is that Phil Wilson, if he has Satoshi Nakamoto, is a systems thinker. He was not thinking of Bitcoin in terms of I'm just going to create digital cash. Phil, in Phil's mind, he's creating a kind of planetary civilization or the foundations for planetary civilization, one piece of which is digital cash. So if you believe this story, the way that Satoshi Nakamoto was actually thinking about Bitcoin is Bitcoin is one piece of the puzzle. The puzzle being planetary civilization and beyond. That is the scope, the big picture thinking of somebody that I find very plausibly could be Satoshi Nakamoto. Not just myopically focused, but he's the very, very, very big picture. In this conversation, you'll find we're kind of all over the place throughout it. There are incredible interesting details about Bitcoin itself, about the actual creation of Bitcoin, the idea of Bitcoin, which there's probably a hundred nuggets of information you can get from this interview, literally. If you want, take this video, clip out 20 seconds at a time, 10 minutes at a time, and you'll be able to have really fascinating claims being made by this Phil Wilson character. But we also don't just talk about Bitcoin because he's got a very active mind. We talk about a whole bunch of topics, kind of talk about the world view of Phil Wilson, which is what I love to do on the show. We talk about everything from philosophy to politics and political theory to economics to psychology and religion. It's all part of the package when you're trying to solve the Bitcoin problem. You have to bring all of your mental resources to the table. This is of course what I found very, one of the many things that I find persuasive about Phil is that he's a big picture guy. He's not an academic, the man doesn't have a degree, he has very correct and sharp things to say about the academy and those who are within the academy. And he has created a system that incorporates not just graphic knowledge, not just mathematical knowledge, but knowledge about human psychology, knowledge about economic systems, knowledge about human incentives, the multiple levels of understanding, systemic level understanding in order to create the Bitcoin system. That is at least how I mythologize Satoshi Nakamoto as he must have understood humans at a very deep level. You'll also hear why the mythology of Satoshi is deliberately crafted. What sort of fills effectiveness is the ability to, let's say, be a part of a community and help direct a community along certain lines. You might call it cloak and dagger stuff, but it's probably more accurately understood as maybe a little bit of social media engineering, which when you hear just makes a whole bunch of sense about how that was necessary at the beginning of the project. Also unfortunately, you're going to have to put up with a poor internet connection. Occasionally some of our conversation got dropped, it's been lost in Skype translation, I'm sorry I couldn't do anything about it, that's just the name of the game. So it's not a hundred percent a smooth conversation all the way through, and in listening to it myself I thought, oh man, I wish that little part didn't get dropped. Lastly, there are three big sticking points that everybody is going to have and should have with regard to Phil's Satoshi story. One of them is that Phil has said that for many years his brain has essentially kept information from him. So why didn't he come out earlier? Well, because he didn't remember quite a lot of information, which sounds very fishy. Oh well, you had amnesia really. Maybe it's the case that this is just a cheap excuse for Phil to be able to say this is why I wasn't done the forums for several years, but there is a potential explanation which I find perfectly plausible, which is that Phil has a rather unique brain and mind, which we get into a little bit in this conversation, and from the very beginning of the project, the very beginning, before he even started, he considered this to be his first and only black project that he thought essentially this is, it could bring down nation states, I guess, it could fundamentally restructure civilization, it could result in rich and powerful people losing a lot of their wealth and influence, which of course would make him a target from the beginning he was thinking this as the so this is why he had such incredible operational security because he thought at any point I may have to abandon this project, leave or I might my life might be at risk. Well, what happened as the story gets into is just before he left the project, he thought that he might his life might be in peril, partly because if you know the story, one of his teammates went and spoke with people from a three later agency. Also, people in the Bitcoin community were boasting about hiring private investigators to try to figure out who Satoshi Nakamoto was. He said to the point where he would when he would answer the phone when he would answer the door, he would have a knife behind his back, ready to stab somebody depending on who was at the door, because he was convinced that he was about to be in serious threat. So if that's the case, and if that is partially the explanation for why he disappeared the way that he did without a trace, it is not a stretch of the imagination to say that once he left the project, his reptilian brain kicked in and said, you no longer have access to this information. You had nothing to do with Bitcoin. You know nothing about Bitcoin, and you will not be able to even know what the project is until the brain decides it's safe to come out. Is that true? Is that just a convenient story? I'm not sure, but I find it plausible that if somebody is extremely paranoid to have the level of operational security that Satoshi had, and they have reason for their paranoia, and they think shit's about to hit the fan that their defensive brain mechanism would kick in and actually prevent them from having information for some period of time until it calms down. That's just, maybe it's not true, but maybe it is true. And if that's one of the obstacles for, you know, if you're viewing the story as a whole picture, that is one of the cons to be weighed against the many pros. One of the other difficult things, perhaps the most difficult thing that people are going to have with this is that Phil has no cryptographic proof that he is Satoshi Nakamoto. Now, again, maybe this is, well, that's a convenient excuse. Oh, sorry, I don't have a memory and I don't have any proof that I'm actually Satoshi Nakamoto. Yeah, OK, nice story. But I actually think there's a pretty good explanation for this. Again, Satoshi Nakamoto had 10 out of 10 on operational security. The way that you get 10 out of 10 operational security is by literally destroying all the data that you have and any connection whatsoever that you have to a project that you don't want to have any record of being attached to. Again, this is, we go into a little bit of detail over the course of this interview. So, yeah, he doesn't have any cryptographic proof and there might be a very good explanation for why that's the case. What's what's kind of funny to think about is if it's the case, the Phil is actually Satoshi. He may have had such good operational security that in fact many years after the fact might not be able to prove that he was. He might not even be able to prove that he was the one in the project, at least cryptographically. What he could do and he does is talk about Bitcoin in a way that only Satoshi Nakamoto can talk about it. He can demonstrate a deep conceptual understanding of the system. Even if he doesn't have cryptographic proof, you would expect Satoshi Nakamoto to have a deep, profound, and thorough understanding of the system, which in fact he demonstrates, at least to my satisfaction and probably to yours over the course of this interview. The last thing to note is that Phil's story has holes in it. He has explicitly said his story has holes in it. I know his story has holes in it. You will know that his story has holes in it if you do some research. He's open about it. Again, he's trying to reconstruct information from a project he was involved in a decade ago, a black project that he essentially suffered PTSD from, from fleeing it when he thought it turned sour. It is not surprising in the slightest that he has some errors in his story. And he says it at the very beginning of his post. The Bitcoin origin story that this is I think he said he estimates it's about 50% accurate, but he is surprised that there's actually been less pushback for many of the claims that he's been making, which makes him think perhaps his story is even more accurate than 50%. So keep that in mind. Don't, Phil is not hiding from it. I'm not hiding from it, even though I'm willing to say I think he's actually Satoshi Nakamoto. What you can do is identify every single error that you think doesn't jive, that's wrong, that's incorrect, whether it's about multi-sig addresses or it's about in lock time or whatever the heck it is, identify it, write about it. And I bet Phil will respond to it. Of course, he's under no obligation. If it's reasonable objection, if there's some mistake that he's actually made, the goal is not to go out and convince everybody that he's Satoshi Nakamoto. In fact, as you'll hear, he kind of explicitly is not doing that. He's just saying, I'm telling a story. I'm just telling an interesting story. That's all he's got in that proof. But if you spot a mistake in his story, write about it and we'll see what the response is. So far, I've had a few questions about some things. I thought, maybe this is a little fishy, maybe this is a little bit off. And the response has been very satisfying. So I'm not holding the man because the man is real. Satoshi, the mythology of Satoshi is not the actual Satoshi. There's a man somewhere or men somewhere that are behind this project, which means they're very much flawed. Their memories are going to be flawed. They're not going to share your political biases. They might be dickheads. So you have to be open to that. You have to be adjusting open to that and think, well, maybe maybe the creator of it actually does have these weird mental characteristics. And maybe they was wrong about some some fact. So if you want to play gotcha fill and say, I was wrong about this fact, therefore everything he says is wrong, you're free to do that. I don't think that's the most sophisticated way to approach this story. Over the coming weeks and months and whenever I get time, I do intend to do something like a breakdown of these interviews. I'm probably going to do some write ups to fully explain just many reasons why I think Phil Wilson is actually Satoshi Nakamoto. There's a level of intelligence that Phil has demonstrated, which is an extremely high level, his ability to communicate in a way that people can understand is extremely high level. If you read his writing, especially if you are fortunate enough to have any personal conversation with him, the man writes in the identical style as Satoshi Nakamoto. If you go back and read the Mike Hearn Satoshi emails, you'll see a writing style that's identical. And it's not just the fact that Phil's writing style is identical. It's that it is an extremely high level of intelligence packed into his writing because he writes in a way that everybody can understand, which you can only do if you understand what you're talking about. All right, so that's enough preface for me. Again, this may be fanfiction. This may just be a story with a bunch of remarkable coincidences written by a guy who happens to have fantastically deep knowledge of the Bitcoin system. It's, of course, possible. I'm not claiming certainty. Phil's not claiming certainty. You're going to have to use your own noggin on this one. But I do hope that you enjoy my conversation with Phil Wilson, a.k.a. Scranti, the man who, if I had to bet, I would say is in fact the real Satoshi Nakamoto. Hi there, Phil. How are you? Fine. Very nice to meet you. You're in Charleston, are you? I am in Charleston at the moment. Yes, you said you're in Australia, right? No, I was out in Sydney. Yeah, but you're a Kiwi if I'm not mistaken, right? Well, I used to tell people I'm from Tasmania because no one knows our Tasmanian accent. Are you really from Tasmania? No, no, but most Aussies don't know what a Tasmanian accent is. So it works quite well. OK, yeah, I read your article, the Bitcoin origins, and I thought it was fantastic. There's so many. I was going through in preparation for this, like trying to highlight. Oh, I want to ask about this. I want to have you explain this, what do you mean by this? But it was like the list was way too large. So I've just got the actual article up that I'll I'll ask you some things as we're going along. But well, that's one of the purposes of it. Since there's I've got no data or anything like that. The best way to hide yourself is is not having any information whatsoever. But if I have enough details in there, it's like the Elmuth Busters here, you can either have confirmed or busted or plausible. Can't be confirmed without the actual data or keys or whatever. It can't be busted unless someone else has also got the same data, which is at the moment, there's only one other person that would actually have information and be able to make fake emails. So the only way is to have enough details that makes it plausible. But I think it's got that way because it's been hardly any mention about it whatsoever. Yeah, it's really remarkable. I actually you go ahead. No, no, no, well, well, yeah, that's what I find so interesting is that you expect at least to be a lot of negativity. Yeah, there's been a few nasty comments and a few positive comments, but that's it. It's almost like a flat line. Whenever it does pop, pops its head up. So it's quite strange that it is holding back just. They don't want to say it's it's it's false or fraud or wrong. In case it's proof does come forward. And they don't want to say it's it's true, just in case it's proved to be a scam or a fraud. Well, it's like it's like nothing else that's out there in terms of people claiming to be Satoshi. There's no there's no pomp and circumstance. It's just ideas. And it's originally I stumbled across this article a long time ago. It must have been right when you wrote it. I probably saw it on the subreddit and I skimmed over it. And I thought the way that it was written, you know, with quotes and stuff, I thought there's no way this dude remembers all these conversations that clearly. And so I dismissed it. I didn't realize because I didn't read it carefully. You say at the very beginning, this is a way to recall memories. This is not literally verbatim what happened. And then I went, oh, obviously this this actually makes a great deal of sense that this would be a way that you would reconstruct it in your mind after the fact that I read it carefully. And I thought, oh, crap, like, wow, this why is nobody talking about this? Well, yeah, there's been quite a few people that have skipped over that the first few paragraphs, basically the disclaimer. So I've had to adjust it and make it even more clear that if I actually had the original development emails, there'd be a lot more details involved, more accurate, more timing. Plus, all I have to do is actually post the entire emails, including the the raw headers. And people will be able to establish whether or not this fake screenshot emails that someone else has been throwing around. Actually, the raw headers are going to analyze whether they've actually gone through different mail servers. Plus, also, what people don't realize is that what was ended up being released was a cut down version of what was figured out, designs even implemented. And so there's if the emails were accessible, the amount of stuff that that is big, when it's like, you know, a small amount, I'd say about 25 percent compared to what was designed to be implemented later on, which we found are more important, which I've hinted at in that Bitcoin origin story. But of course, I cannot give any details because I do not have them. And it's something that happened over half a decade ago. And if you recall something that happened half a decade ago, you don't pull in too many details, some of them you can, but not every single thing. You know, also, it's more like a photo album. You know, when you someone says you did something like five, ten years ago, I think, well, I can't remember that. And they show you a photo album with you. Yeah, there's you and a few others. And I remember, and then you remember some of the peripheral details that aren't actually captured by that photo. I think what's been happening the last year and a half. I think what's going on, too, for a lot of people is they see the creation of Bitcoin as such a an intellectual accomplishment, like such a paradigm shifting accomplishment that the idea that that the creator of it didn't really recall all the details after the fact to kind of left the project. I think they think is like, oh, that's that's silly. That's not the way the world works. Or like somebody with that level of knowledge couldn't abandon the project or like this information will come out. A lot of it comes down to the way some people's brains think. We know that school, right? I school with six, seven hundred people in that. And I'd see everyone walking one direction. And I'd be saying, where's everyone going? And everyone know the instructions given out the last couple of weeks, except me, every single, even the thick people would know where they're supposed to go and all rest. And I'm standing there going, I don't remember any message being sent up to anybody. Yeah, so that's always been my case, is that that I just recall. So it's like the brain is like separate to me. Only if my brain decides to give me information, it will give me the information, otherwise it just locks it away. The big cases when I was in the RNZEF doing avionics technician course. And I'd learned about like valve technology that so well in the graphs and everything else, that the instructor was putting me in front of the class to show them and instruct them how the anodes and cathodes and everything else works about them and all the calculations. And so we go to the courses and trying to pass mark was like 70 percent. But if you got below 80 percent, you were frowned upon. And I was part of the group with them trying to get above like 98, 99 percent. I got one of the tests and my mind would be completely blank. It would not give me any information whatsoever. Here I am thinking, hang on, these other people are passing these these this course based upon information I taught them. So I clearly know this, but my brain just just nothing at all. Wouldn't retain anything. So this is maybe not a normal human trait, but it's a my trait type thing. That's fascinating. I found I don't I don't have it in that extreme, but I find details that completely escape me. It's like like citations, for example, like I consume a great amount of content, synthesize a great amount of content. But if you were to ask me, where did you get that piece of information? Where did you get that statistic? There's not a chance in hell that I could recall anything. It's like I consider that metadata and it just gets eliminated. And I have no purpose for it, which is not good. If you're trying to, you know, persuade somebody of your perspective to not recall the metadata, it's just my my brain doesn't find it interesting. It's like putting references at the end of a white paper and your brain say, well, I need these references or citations to show people what I looked at to actually come to this conclusion. And without that, no one's going to believe anything you say. But if your brain doesn't do it and I can't remember that sort of stuff. Your brains focus on one goal and its goal is not making a list of citations and references. So you can show to other academics and go, look at these references, citations, I must be important. Oh, I've referenced you. So you must be important. And you must like my document and my conclusion. Exactly. I've referenced you. Well, well, well, well, well, for a start, as long as you realize that I'm not making any claims, right? I've put the information out there, right? But I'm not going around making claims, right? I like to know the people. But but people could think that claims are being made. But it's it's it's more important that the but the thinking process gets put out there. Right. Because I even come across someone that's actually described the thinking process of being able to do something that's actually fundamentally impossible. Even when Bitcoin itself was released, so January 2009, at that time, it was not currency. Right. It was not money. All these ideas of this is what money is. If you looked at Bitcoin at that time, it was not money. You had to go to something that's not money. And have a process in place that will transform into money, which itself is impossible. So forget about the conventional rest. Just get the currency working. I'm talking about things like, like it's got to be a store of value, a medium of exchange and it kind of stuff. Well, it was none of those things. You could not use it as a medium of exchange because you could transfer it just like a file. That's not if I see you a file, that's not a medium of exchange. All right. I'll try using FTP or something. That's not a medium of exchange in a monetary sense. Yeah. So all the all the value things that that state that money is this, blah, blah, blah, blah, Bitcoin just wasn't. It became that it was bootstrapped to do that over a year or two. So how all these ICOs are doing this? I don't think they are. Are they ever zero of them? Because they haven't even thought of that. This information was never made public in the first place. So. For at least someone else has also come along with these thoughts saying, OK, we've got to start with something that's not money and make it money. And this is the process. None of them are thinking that they're all thinking you'll get rich quick. I talk to people over the last, you know, for months. And then if you really want to, you could throw out an ICO every week and make a million of water in glass every single week. Yeah, you could generate or do exist websites which will auto generate the buzzword abstracts for the white pack. That's brilliant. And just pop it automatically and it just becomes a numbers game. Yeah. All right. My dumb dumb money follows dumb money. Right. Well, so if you don't mind me asking, I thought they run until they run out of money. That means it's been a transfer of wealth for a dumb person to a smart person. Well, when I that's actually interesting. And I've learned honestly in the past few years, I've learned more about how the world works through watching what's happened in Bitcoin than pretty much any other point in my life. Like what happened with the I don't know how closely you follow the BTC versus BCH stuff and like the development process. It's crazy. The politics is crazy. Humans are totally crazy. But I literally have learned life lessons from this. And my brother as well, we're both like, hang on a second. In all places, the crypto community, the Bitcoin community, that was this tight net community, tight net group of people all intellectually aligned, like you got to be set apart to even be involved in Bitcoin at all at the time back in the day. It's been taken over and overpopulated by people. It's a it's a get rich quick scheme. The development has totally changed that a lot of these people do not have the same fundamental principles. And I don't I don't know if I'd say it's a conspiracy, but people there's a lot of people who are very suspicious of like big business and big corporations. And as things get more popular, they kind of get watered down. I see it firsthand. And I imagine from your perspective, if you've been watching it, it's probably frustrating or heartbreaking, or maybe you had the expectation that this was going to happen. And like this is going to turn into a 90 percent of the crypto people are kind of scammers who are just trying to make a quick buck. But I didn't I was naive prior to following Bitcoin into seeing how the world works like this. Oh, yeah, it's interesting. From my perspective, I think it should have fought five years ago. Yeah. All right. Here's one reason why they most and others were put in charge of major social. Um, points of interest. Just take my sister as well. For my perspective, an unpleasant person. Um, he came to come in front of the scammers and multi-level marketing arena and career. Oh, do you know him then? No, no, no, no. Only this sense of online communications. He started coming. He got involved in 2009 or something like that. But he was this influx of Craig was supposed to go to the programming sites, the development sites, the game developments are more specifically the hacking and the cracking sites in the ISE channels and get folks involved from there. And I don't think he ever did. And they end up getting all these things like people that are interested in scamming and multi-level marketing, his type of people, which is where they must come from. The thing is, I remember some of the early messages he had in a source forage form. He was talking about telling people to if they get their family members involved and their friends involved and actually, you know, make real, real exchanges of stuff would actually give the real value to this item, then pump it up, pump it up, and then we can sell it, right? Make money. So he was only interested in making money of friends and family right from the start. He might have changed his attitude over. Now, I'm charging on some of these things like things like the message board. People would choose to go to another message board. It's the reason why Bitcoin Talk was actually replaced the source forage forums on Bitcoin.org. But it was split off to its own domain, specifically so that people could actually stop going to it and choose their own one that they want to go to. So if one was being censored, the go-to one that was uncensored. Now, that was supposed to happen like five years ago, not in the last year or two. You knew then that there were going to be people involved in the project that just wanted to kind of a get rich quick scheme. Did you see from an early point that this could be something that had even dramatic political implications? There's a lot of libertarian theorists who have taken the Bitcoin technology and run with it and they go, this is going to bring down nation states. Like this is going to be an end to war. And they kind of really run off to the extreme. I think there's some truth to that. I think that it definitely has political implications. But was that something that you thought to yourself, oh man, this is going to be a world changer? There's different aspects to it. If you read the story, you'll see that there's different parts of the timeline. Like for the start, when I first got involved, I'm just finishing off the wasn't. It was actually to involve Dave and Greg. Just so I could be on the sidelines viewing the development of Craig's electronic cash thing. He was trying to do part time for five years and full time for one and a half years. Just like a few years before in late 90s, I was involved in the uncompusive. And I was on the sidelines watching how people develop the PNG file format to replace the GIF file format. So I was in the comprehensive forms, actually reading the message back there, adding my own every now and then, as they figured out how this thing's going to actually exist to what the file format is going to do, should it have animation or not, and they decided to have a separate MNG file format for the animation side of it. Well, just files can do both static and animations. And so I'll do the same thing again, be on the sidelines, reviewing really intelligent crypto type people, figure this electronic cash thing out. And it turned out that nobody really wanted to help at all. So I end up saying, well, I'll try and give you a help by learning this stuff and see if I can help you out. And in the end, find out that you can't solve it at all. If you study every single type of electronic cash attempt in the past, last 20 years or so, they always failed because they always trusted a computer that could be shut down. The last, the biggest one, it was not shut down by the computer, but they called them by saying they were money transmitters or they needed a license or financial license, and they got them shut down because of that. But that didn't work, they just kept those, better switched off. And some try to mitigate that by having multiple computers running. There's only six computers that need to be shut down. The only way to do it is so that the amount of funds needed to shut down the system is greater than to be applied in the first place. So if your adversary had a trillion dollars worth of funds, it will have to cost a trillion dollars at plus one to be able to shut you down. So this sort of thing, it was impossible. You can't do it. And so that's why I left this project and said, well, good luck, not gonna happen, right? And that's when I decided to start my own project up. Because I was thinking about it for a few weeks and I was thinking, if you could solve this business time generous problem in a practical sense, right? Not in an academic sense. Forget about the cash side of it. That will actually solve one of the great problems in the computer industry at the moment that you cannot have a digital file that only exists one location. Or at least the ownership of it. As soon as you transmit it to someone else, you're not sending it to someone else. You're making a copy and sending it, right? And you're not even sending it. You're not even sending that copy. All you're doing is making copy, you're sending it and it's being distributed in every hop along the way. It's pausing and another copy's made and it's gone to the next hop and next hop until it gets to its destination. And so multiple copies are being made on the hops towards its destination. They're deleted, of course, because those ISPs and RORs cannot afford to store everything. Well, I'll let you in and say. But yeah, so to say, how on earth can you make it so that there's only one copy in the digital world? So how entire societies are based upon Well, they say about scarcity and you're talking about gold. It's not scarcity of everything. Scarcity of a property, only one person can own a property at a time. Well, that was a digital property. Well, you just make copies and copies and copies and say multiple people own it. But how can you prove that only one person does? Well, you need a physical record in a physical office at the local council or county office. Well, if that's the only way to do it, then we're not going to progress ever. There's a line now of progress as far we can never go forward. However, if you can solve the problem of these additional documents being recorded, not being able to be changed, then all these systems, the base of our societies can be transferred into this digital realm finally and we can progress further. So you knew that that early on before you even developed it. You knew that that was No, not for making the attempt to try to see if I make it. So I've already finished giving up on Craig's attempt because it was not all the rest other attempts going to fail. And so thinking this through, it would fundamentally change it because at the moment, while we are tied, say your local house is tied to the local county office or council office, we're going to have cities and provinces and states and countries and nations and regions, lots in the area. If we're going to actually be a global village, which has been talked about since the mid 90s, that means that information should be able to be stored anywhere. Not just local. If it has to be local only, then you'll only ever stay local. Yeah, and you got to remember that all the solution to the solution did not come by at one go. You had to start somewhere and just trust the process that if there is a solution, if the facts want you to figure it out, they'll let you figure it out. Or if your brain decides to let you figure it out, it'll tell you. Otherwise, it's worth all taking the chance anyway. Because I've seen the last few months that some folks back then were saying that there was some talking about electronic cash and digital assets and stuff in the early 2000s. But from what I saw, no, they weren't actually, they were already given up. So there wasn't this great big bad cash back. There were some that made a paper in the mid 90s, the late 90s, the early 2000s, the mid 2000s. But there wasn't a group, like a little gang or talking about this thing. From my perspective, though, the idea is not to go around and make it as if saying, this is the guy that invented the technology and set it up and was projecting all the rest because that, in itself, the first thing people would do, even myself, would go, OK, that's a hell of a claim. Where's the proof of that? There is no proof. OK. We can ignore everything else that's mentioned. I thought about just a random person off the internet just having an interesting discussion. That's all right. So there's a lot of people who are looking at Craig and are thinking, OK, this guy has really deep knowledge about Bitcoin origins and they don't have enough. They don't know enough to see that there's quite a lot of bluster with Craig. It's a very weird mix of saying what appears to be very deep and correct and insightful claims mixed with a horse shit, quite frankly. Part of that's my fault, I reckon. I told me I said one of the tricks to communication is that I got an echo from my father. I don't know is that either blind them with brilliance or you're baffled them with bullshit. And and and that works quite well, right? Yeah. But he should have combined them both. Right. So so this is this is one of the other. It's got a really great photographic memory top thing. He is like as a personal assistant, he's like the best Google you could ever have. You Google for something and you have to go through 10 page and you still don't find it. You tell him he goes, oh, that reminds me of something. About 50 seconds later, he's come back. He's got all these different references that are related to what you were just talking about. Yeah, better than good. And so that's one of that's honestly one of the other pieces of the puzzle that that make a very compelling case to me. And one of my friends who I think you had conversation with, we were talking about this and we said, well, look, this this Phil story is the only one that actually allows both sides of the Craig drama to be correct because there's some people who say Craig is Satoshi because he's got all this inside information. And there's some people to say, Craig is obviously a scammer who may be even technically incompetent. Well, both of them can be correct in this scenario because he is a scammer and he has information that only Satoshi would have. Yeah, so both the both parties are satisfied there. Yeah, but no, no, no. If you think of those two scenarios like, OK, you try and figure out a story where both of those are actually true and give them to 20 people, 100 people, a thousand people or put a $10,000 value on a story that would link to those two types of parts of Craig and make them both true. They'll have a very difficult time. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Mixed with the the writing that that the reason that I contacted you and the reason I was compelled is because of the way you were talking about the thought process. So it's like that's what I was talking to my wife about as well, because she's also a bit of a bit coiner. She was working at BitPay for a while where we've been involved in Bitcoin for a bit. She was saying, because she works with me, I do a lot of independent work outside the academy. And she said, Steve, that here we have a guy who is writing from a perspective of doing something that the experts considered was impossible, demonstrating deep knowledge of the actual concepts involved, put the pieces together with Craig. And it's either the case that the story is roughly correct or you now have to explain the existence of this fill guy and his incredible storytelling ability to put all the pieces of the puzzle together and tie them in with like deep theoretical knowledge of Bitcoin. Like, I mean, that's pretty impressive. If that's what you've done is if you even if it's just like not anything like fan fiction or fan fiction or a story, it's still pretty impressive. Pretty impressive. It's pretty impressive. So I should be getting a pat on the back for that. But even that has not happened, which is very, very odd. You get people posting like crack posts on Reddit and stuff and they get like a thousand upvotes or a thousand downvotes and stuff. There was action. My stuff, if you actually look at my Reddit post I made, it's only like 10 or 30 people actually upvoting or downvoting or even like only a dozen or less commenting. I just like no, no, just everyone's afraid of saying yes or no. Honestly, I think it's because it's on a different level. So to think with a lot of scammers and the people that have been promoting their satoshiness is because they have self-interest involved and it comes through in their writing. So they're operating at a certain level. They're saying things that one, like if you were role playing satoshi, you would say if you were trying to like build your status and ethos in the community. But the stuff that I've seen you write is not from that perspective at all. It's it's coming from a perspective which I don't think people know how to engage with at all. Like with Craig, he's got reasons to lie. You know, and he's writing stuff on yours.org like this poorly written emotional like we're going to we're going to go and change the world, guys. And it's like, OK, he definitely is trying to capitalize on. There's quite a lot of people who believe that that he is the creator of it, who I don't think have seen this other side of the story. We can kind of have your cake and eat it, too, that, yes, Craig was an integral part and was there at the beginning. And he's technically incompetent and he's a poor writer. And he has access to information that only Satoshi would have. Just all. Yeah. Well, just just one one pull out one thing that you're just saying about technically incompetent, I wouldn't say it's like I think everything is a sliding scale of some sort. Right. So there's some things he's technically very competent in. Other bits, it's just a mess. And other things he's learned like early on, he could not understand or comprehend the private public keys. He understood the mathematics far better than me of how the calculations done. But he could not understand the concept of what private means and what public means. Because some other paper that he read, they talked about giving out the private key and then sign the stuff with the public key and the people with your private key were. And so he was wanting to use that. And I can say, no, no, no, that paper is wrong. It's called private because you keep it private, you know, secret. And it's called public because that's the key you give out to the public. And it is public. He says, but when you when you generate it, you know, some of the command line, you know, it gives out two keys, right? It says one's public, one's private. And it goes by the the calculation itself. It does not matter which one you use, because a synchronous. You encrypt with one and only the other one can actually decrypt it. And vice versa. Right. I think, yeah, yeah. But it uses has the word private public to help you. So you can choose one and make sure you don't swap around. If you choose the one that stays private and you want to use a public, you now have to call it public, right? Because it's there was a huge email list of just covering that. Over three days to finally make him understand the key that giving out to the public is called public. And don't try and screw things on. So so when you go to a tender for competence, yeah, some things he's exceptional on some other things he's absolutely hopeless. Yeah, fair enough. And that's what works good as a team as well, because you you had me on one side, you had him on the other. And you also had Dave trying to calm our our, you know, personalities down. So it was actually clear in the in that origin story, what was Dave's role? Was he actually contributing to the code? Or was it kind of like you say, the the the moderation role between the two of you? No, those bits of both, for instance, for the. For when we're building the client, right? So you say, what was it September, October, November? We we use something called WX widgets or something like that, some sort of widget type type user interface system. And it was we use that because Dave had done some programming but not much, right? And that's what he'd used. And so it's a system we use that, which annoyed me because I wanted to use the interface to be like space age. So awesomeness, right? Because I come from assembly background and not just assembly, just the language, but the Win32 assembly group, which is making Windows programs, but from the assembly using assembly language to call in the the Windows libraries. And we'd use normal resource files. And one of the examples I had was to have custom windows instead of normal rectangle windows, you're going to actually get an image and have it any shape you want. All right, you might have seen like Win app and a few of the audio players, you can select it to custom mode and it'll be a funny shape. Yeah, I do remember that. Right, it was that type of stuff. And so I actually made an example for a, this is like 2002, 2003, an example, how to use the, in Windows back then, like XP, Windows XP, you had the card games, like Free Cell and all rest. And they had a special DLL, the Navig Library, that had the cards in it. That's why they're always off the same. And I came up with a Win32 assembly example of how to access this library and display the cards on the screen. So the other people would go and make their own card games. Now, but to do that, I decided to make a one of these custom user interfaces. So it's a nice show. I changed the interface to two giant grabbing buttons, one to make it all display all the cards in their suits and other ones to shuffle them. Not an actual game, but to show the how to technically use the stuff. And I wanted this to be part of the user interface for Bitcoin. Interesting. Now it's supposed to be this boring old box type thing. It was going to be a specific user interface. It's going to look like this thing for the poker table. This is what we're going to use or something very, very similar to it. As well as supposed to be a marketplace and the idea is no, these square boxes anymore, we'll actually have custom, right? For him to help us a little bit, he needed to use this WX widget using the face system. So we use that later on into the normally, it was changed to QT because people wanted to to put it onto other operating systems and this widget thing, whatever it couldn't be ported to other operating systems. QT was a system to have user interface that can be compiled to run on. It was even more, well, it's the direction that was had to go down, but it was still a way. I wanted the core Daemon or REST to be the same on all systems that used the interface should be specific. Yeah. So Windows should have the RSRC files that are making the user interface and Unix, whatever GTK, whatever it is, the use for that. And OSX should have a Nib files and have them specific for those platforms and have the core interface encode could be the same. But that's history now. I'm gonna always change it and she start making these awesome user interfaces again. Yeah, I think actually there's, I was just listening to an interview with Johannes Varemoll, I think is his name. He's like a systems designer from France who was big on Bitcoin Cash now and he was saying kind of a similar idea not having one monolithic software program that is Bitcoin Core that does all of it. He was saying it needs to be broken up across industry. So like why not just have specific software that runs for supply chain stuff? Why don't you gotta have specific software that runs just the mining stuff? Specific software for user interface for point of sale technology that actually makes a lot of sense. Why would the idea of glumping it all into one box literally that you gotta use the terminal to make work is not a good way of doing it. And then people turn around saying they're the best engineers in the world. Well, if you actually talk to the best engineers in the world you find out no they're not. You remember if you go and push back to, oh well that's how the client reference was, only what half a dozen files when it first came out. Yeah, because it was a pre-file concept. We did not know that within two weeks it would fall over something obvious sort of fault that we just could not see. No, we had the blinkers on and we just could not see this great big problem over here. It would fall over two weeks or six, seven weeks down the line after the word had got out in some academics they have real expertise come in and say, well, you got this problem, this problem, this is that factor that you didn't think of it's not gonna work, all right? Teens of amount of effort but it was worth while making it and taking the risk but yeah, it was cut down just to see if it works. And if it worked, okay, then we can bring in the other ideas of planetary civilization, geodesic threads, data and all that, okay? As I start dividing up the world into regions and stuff based on where the human beings actually are, okay? Get rid of the idea. You'd have flags for your own sports teams and all that but the idea of having a nation using a flag to be able to murder other people, get rid of that system completely by transferring the wealth away from those, okay? And then the whole system would be broken apart into just the code for the protocol side of things, other code for doing this and now that, okay? All these ideas are already figured out or practically all of them. But as soon as it was working as a, it could be used as an online gambling token type thing, it's stagnated at that point ever since because that's what Craig wanted was, he's coming from a scamming or a little marketing, online gambling, casino, that around. As soon as you got a token that could work in that environment, he was not interested in putting the other stuff in. So it was a talk discussion when mining pools first started up in 2010, I think it was. And Craig was saying, oh, the whole system, every time there's a claimant, he comes in and says, oh, it's all collapsed, it's not gonna work now, it's a failure. And this time it was about, oh, mining pools have started up. Someone started a mining pool, which is gonna take a large percentage of the hashing power type thing. And so one person's got a large amount of the hashing power and certainly being decentralized over Australia, 1,000 people and 1,000 people were having a little bit from the computers. You have one and all these people were putting their machines towards this one pool. It's a failure of decentralization, doesn't work. And part of it was that, well, if you draw a line, it's all gonna go end up being these pools. And what's the difference between one person having 1,000 machines in one location or 1,000 people with one machine spread around the world, all aiming it towards one pool? From the network perspective, it looks the same. So visually from the network perspective, it's going to a node and there's like 1,000 machines behind that node. It doesn't matter whether it's a pool or not. Or one person with 1,000 machines at one location or a pool. If anything come down to decentralization, far better to have a pool with 1,000 machines spread across the planet than having one person that's got 1,000 machines in one location. That's decentralization. That takes one missile to destroy that amount of hashing power while one pool with 1,000 nodes spread around the planet, take 1,000 missiles. So I told you before about a trillion dollars aimed towards you. You've got to actually make it so that it costs more than that to destroy it. That's the idea of decentralization. The machines be decentralized. Doesn't care about the people. It could be one person. Now this is how extreme it can be. It could be one person. If you take the line to the most extreme, unlikely, but to the most extreme to one person, one pool. So there was one pool and you're always miners around the whole planet all going towards there for this one. How many, what, 40 exahashes or whatever it is. That's decentralized. The machines themselves are decentralized. And it will take, say there's 10,000, 100,000, however many machines there are around, how many machines would there be now? Hundreds of thousands of them. Probably, yeah. So there are hundreds of thousands of missiles we need to take out that network even if we only had one pool, right? That decentralization is not the number of nodes that are showing on the network itself. Where the machines are and how many missiles are needed to destroy the network. So what do you think then about when people are talking about the actual geographic centralization of mining based on differences in electricity in countries? So like China's got super cheap electricity, you're gonna get geographic centralization and it's not gonna be spread around the planet. So you do worry about geographic centralization. Oh yeah, especially subsidization. Because every nation, China I know, can actually have their nation state, or the government decide to at any moment to start subsidizing certain sectors in the industry. Some of them say that if you're a manufacturing industry, we will subsidize your electricity so that you can be competitive with other countries that we've got cheaper electricity. But everyone else doesn't get their electricity subsidized. If you look at most places, it ends up being that the retail electricity users, which means all of us falls in our homes, trying to get warm in winter, we're actually subsidizing the manufacturers. All right, they're getting their electricity so much cheaper. But there is a problem if it only comes to one, but the idea is that it's all competition. So that if it ends up being available to the planet, and it's all being subsidized by, say, Chinese government subsidizing electricity and it's a lot of mining equipment. Remember again, there's definitely mining pool, which some of them might be in China, and then mining equipment, physically being in that location. If there's a bit more of that mining equipment in that location, that's valuable, the world, you'll get the US government saying, right, we're gonna subsidize electricity for miners in our country. You cannot afford it at the moment because it's like five to 10 cents per kilowatt hour while in China it's two cents. Okay, we're gonna subsidize, if you're a mining company, not these other companies, if you're a mining company, we'll do that, Russia do the same. So all these big countries will end up doing the same thing, if they find it's valuable. Okay, they might of course have a pain that they want it will be concentrated in China, so it becomes worthless. Or some, they might be paying their other gains. So you see competition among governments essentially. Well, see, this is really interesting because I know, so I consider myself like a big blocker, like I think it's, you gotta increase the block size that just makes sense for how the system scales. But one of the arguments that the small block side, one megabyte forever side uses, they say, well look, you're gonna get data centers that are the only ones that are able to be Bitcoin miners and those data centers that are gonna geographically isolate in those areas with the cheapest electricity and that's a real concern. And you think that, I mean, I think I agree with you, but you're saying that there's gonna be enough competition around the globe where that's not a realistic concern. It's also, if you focus on one little area of it, you can create this example of how bad it'll be and that's with all cases. But with this use, there's other games of foot in this entire system. One is, well, for a start, say across of electricity, okay? Well, before I go into that, part of this concentration comes from Isaac Osumoff. Isaac Osumoff is a science fiction writer. He also wrote some proper scientific books, but he's more well known for the robot series as well as foundation books. And in the foundation books, in the prelude to foundation, it mentions about how certain provinces end up being specialized. All right, so for one thing, when the tops of food is like some sort of fungus or fungi type flavored stuff that's used for either to eat completely or as a dessert or as a almost like hoops and spices that are used across the galaxy. And different areas grow this stuff, but the best place was well known on the planet of Trent or one location. And so the best place is that location. And you see that again and again all over the planet, depending on what need to be manufactured or developed, the tops of people themselves or their culture or just their ability becomes focused. And so when it comes to electricity on this planet, if there's some areas which are more beneficial for the generation of electricity, then that should be where it should be focused. They're more efficient. If it's better to have it generating in the equatorial type nations because that's where they hit the most sunlight. So you have solar and that's where they'll focus. There's an area that's more windy. That's where the wind farms when it being. So again and again and again, you should be able to see these concentrations anyway. That's natural. If you try this sort of idea of social equality of everyone's equal and so it should be spread evenly across the planet. Well, the solar panels trying to generate power up in the far North Arctic Sea area or Antarctic, not gonna be exactly the same as those in equatorial nations. And so one's more efficient, one's less efficient. And to create those solar panels in the first place is usually more toxic than digging coal out of the ground and burning it. This joke, you don't wanna actually notice that there's actually more toxic waste and from generating this clean solar panels than it is to actually just burn coal. Sorry, but don't talk to you about that. So again, you gotta take into the whole thing, not just the nice market that's in a glossy magazine. So there might be concentration. Sure, if it was all concentrated there, well, that'd be dangerous. Again, how many missiles does it take to destroy the system? With electricity, it'll be different though. If you go through human species evolution and change development over tens of thousands of years, that the nation states, not even before, even for this nation states, that the city states, even before they're at the townships and the ones that succeeded for the longest time are usually those that had the most advanced weaponry. They're the best tools at the time. Sticks and stones, and then you had bronze and copper, bronze and then iron. The last few hundred years, things have ramped up immensely. It's only the last 200 years, human beings were finally better than any other creature on the planet. Before then, say you go back 300, 400 years ago, there'd always be a creature on this planet that did something better than us, all right? Which is faster. Cheetahs would run 60Ks an hour until we got steam engines, all right? And put them on wheels and tracks, and then we had steam locomotives. Then we could actually go faster than these creatures. It would finally go further. Before we had aircraft, we couldn't fly like the albatrosses and eagles. So with flight in this last century, we are now superior to all the birds. And now in the last few decades, we've done something even astronomically crazier. We've actually gone to orbit around this planet and even gone to, physically, the human being has gone to the local satellite and back again, all right? So we're now in the last century, even far, far above any other creature on the planet, but it's only been recent. It's only the last couple of hundred years, or the last hundred years, this has happened. Before that, there was always some creature on this planet that's superior to us in some way, all right? So you go back these tools, and as far as I'm concerned, we're the greatest tool using creature on the planet. And whoever was the top dog in an area had the best tools, had the best weapons, had the best way of transporting our water into their townships, put out their villages into towns into cities. Without a viaduct, you'd never have the mass of cities that Romans had, as well as supply lines for digging iron ore out of the ground and smelting it and then building weapons to actually defend the borders and each others. At the moment, what's the greatest tool the humans have right now? We've got electricity. Those without electricity, they're tiny, they're little, they're nothing. Those that make the best use of electricity, which you're talking about electronics, the machines that we're talking through right now, the machines that are powering the communication systems right now, and the banking system right now, the finance system right now, everything. That is the number one tool. So whoever has control over the electricity, if you didn't have that, all of a sudden, power gets blacked up, now what? It was screwed. Even if the servers go down, you're stuffed. Can we go back to paperwork? Well, no, the entire system get up now. It's not like it was 20, 30 years ago. When computers were a new system, but they were still used the older system as a backup. Now, everything is online. There is no paper backup and the power goes down, it was stuffed, which means the electrical lines in a city and a nation is very, very important. Okay, it has to be defended against. And so if all the electricity in the world was getting generated in China and then microwave beams around the planet, back up into satellites and then through to other satellites and back down again, because it's so efficient there. Even through that incredible extreme case, which will never happen, it would be in the entire world's interest to defend that power generation, even if they hate the people. If one nation hate the other, but that's where all the electricity coming from, you would have your forces in that country to defend the generation of that electricity. Well, defend against others that would break that cycle or harm. Okay? So it'll work out as far as I'm concerned. A typical human self-interest will work out. Because if it didn't, we would have already become extinct long ago. This idea of everyone having little flowers in their hair and all, okay? Dancing in a little circle, holding hands, that's nice for fairy tales, but when the children grow up and became adults, they're going to get their hands up for adults. You just don't say that. Hey, I love competition, but really you want to bury them. Right. I mean, that's a point that I do feel like is missed when people are looking at the Bitcoin system. A lot of them are actually thinking that things like greed are a flaw in the system. Like, oh, miners are going to be so greedy. People are arguing, what happens if the miners get together and inflate the monetary supply so that they just could give themselves more money? Well, they're not stupid if they did that. You hear what you just said then, inflate the monetary supply. What does that monetary supply mean? Use its value. So what they could buy with, say, 100 items, they'll actually need 120 of those items to buy the same item, that same thing. And probably less than that because they're going to be destroying the value and the faith of that currency. So it's a double whammy, not only... Yeah, it's actually a fine balance. If they're smart, they'll actually devalue it by actually giving themselves less coin, which means there's going to be less than that item. It means the value of it's going to go up for what they've actually currently got. But the others that are new to the system want more. And so it's a fine balance anyway. Let's talk about before and about these fake toshies and stuff like that. Well, if you're going to tell a lie, you've got to be confident, right? Which is great. I practice that often. I was even at a meeting some sort of course yesterday. And the person asked me, what's your name? And without skipping a beat, what's your name? Steve. Right? Not because of you, but I use that quite often. You go to one of the... The direct name, I know. The juice places and they say, what's your name? And people will give their real name. For one thing, that's your private information. Why do they need your private information? They just need to call it a noise. And so it's uniquely you or something like Fred and things like that, right? I've got to say something, even my boys saying, oh, I'm Ann Chovey, right? I'm still not sure whether or not your name is Phil Wilson, but I'm not going to push it. Well, there she had someone in red that actually asked me, I said, yeah, can you actually prove you are Phil Wilson? Right? So, yeah. But the idea is to be confident, but some of the other guys that I'll talk to after the Santoshi Roundtable, they can fib. Because I was in Cancun in Mexico, so there was a lot of tequilas, right? But I was going to say the same type of thing that I've been talking to you about, no matter how many tequilas I had up until like one o'clock in the morning. And I said to some of these guys, one of these guys later on, about a week or two later, right? Oh, even a month or two later after Craig had said a few odd things. I said, well, let's wait. I said this and this and this, whatever. And I was off my face with tequilas, right? Right? I mean, my story is still consistent, you know, whether I'm sober or half-cat or off my face, which a person that was trying to adjust and make things up or whatever, would not be able to do even if they're sober the entire time. Right. Right? Little I know had a few drinks. Well, on that note, so you were at the conference in Cancun. Are you still, are you working with anybody in the BCH community? Because I mean, people, even if they don't know who you are, you're going to have ideas that people would be really, really excited about. So have you, are you doing like the Puppet Master thing and you kind of talk to some people and then the ideas get out that way? No, no, no. I'm not doing the old Puppet Master thing that I was doing in 2009, 2010. In the new message board, there's been Bitcoin talk, we're still on the Bitcoin.org site. We were actually running multiple handles. Right? It's like I come from winter tourism as a moderator there, not just a member, but one of the main moderators. And I just try and manipulate the environment of the community so that it's encouraging to newbies. Because with assembly and crypto and Norris, you've got all these people with a huge, at least, not any other thing, programming as well, I suppose, computer science. Everyone's got these elitist EOs and stuff, right? Me just as much as anyone else. However, I can say that for things to progress, we've got to have an environment where newbies are okay asking questions, which people think are stupid. Because we all start that level, right? And so we're using different multiple handles on the message board. So you can have one of our handles ask a silly question, a newbie question, then another will come in and give an answer and apply it to other members, long-time members, the ones at least, can actually see what's the appropriate type of language to use against someone asking that question. And change the behavior. Some of the ones that skipped over that were a bit harsh. I'll communicate with them privately and say, no, this is why we're doing this. You delete that message, or you adjust it and stuff. And so if you read all the, if you go through the message board right the first few months, first two or three months or whatever, say, December, January, February, March, you will see it a very different looking top of community than it is now. Or in red or anything. Because we remain lippin' in the hell of it. You've got foundation, right? You've got foundation one, which is Bitcoin, right? Or sorry, not just Bitcoin, but the planetary civilization and that's foundation one. It's meant to take over from the old broken empire, the current currency and United Nations and all these different nation states we've got now. It's gonna be replaced by this second foundation. I'm sorry, sorry. By this new foundation. And the idea is to have a second foundation that manipulates and controls that in the background. So I was using the message board to learn manipulation techniques. People think it's this nice little lovely, oh, wonderful thing. No, no, no, there's deception and lies and manipulation is filled with it. But you don't know about it, right? That is the most altruistic social engineering I've ever heard of. That's so funny because you see it in reverse on the Bitcoin subreddit, the R Bitcoin subreddit. The social media engineering is just overdrive the amount of censorship and chills that are trying to create the narratives. It's so transparent, but it's funny that it was done kind of in reverse to help people and bootstrap the project back in the day. It needed to be because without a community being built on a technology it would go nowhere. I said before it wasn't money until you had a process to have people make it money. Now, how did you figure out that piece of the puzzle? Because for me, I did not realize let's say I didn't realize how manipulatable the public is and how empty-headed and just yeah, that's a nice way to put it. How did you realize, okay, what we need is community and it needs to be engineered in this way? Just experience. How's that president of yours going? Great. How was George Bush back in the early 2000s? Yeah? It's obvious in every nation that the people can be manipulated. The reason why government voting is three to four years also why the halving for Bitcoin in every four years is because within two years you'll still remember all the lies and promises that are broken and lies that are told. After six to eight years you'd even forget what type of government system you've got. It wouldn't really matter whether you're a communist system or dictatorship or democracy. They might have these great big fights democracy and democratic nations get this since you can say Vietnam and all the rest because of the communists going, who cares? To the rest of us, it doesn't really matter as long as we can buy toilet paper and food and stuff. It doesn't matter what the political nature is so anything longer than four years and people forget what nation are we in? Monarchy still? We don't know. So soon enough so that people won't forget what type of political power is in control and not too soon that people will remember the lies they told at the last election and why it didn't come through. And three to four years the idea of the harbour every four years is in a planetary civilisation you still need governance you still need the decision makers we might take the power of stealing our funds the 30% of our funds away however we still need things built. We need a weaponry to defend ourselves against other people that will do us harm. It's not a utopia type thing you've got to remember that they're all nasty people out there even to probably down your own street you just don't know about. See not going to have private entities paying for the policing force because they will just be using them to defend their own interests. So let's go that way anyway. Sorry you cut out a little bit in the middle but I think I pieced together what you were saying. So for you when you were doing this is this just knowledge that you picked up you observed the world and how empty headed people are and thought this needs to be a part of the bootstrapping because that's project management for Bitcoin that is not something that an academic is going to bring to the table. That's a very concrete practical like the world is broken and confused and we need to manipulate people to get this thing bootstrapped. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah I've said beforehand that the existence of Bitcoin is impossible. Not just the economy every aspect of it it should not exist. It does of course but that's why it's so important to write a process of how this was developed. So people will understand. It's not just Merkle trades existed beforehand and someone wrote about this little one beforehand and they just put together and just magically worked. No, that's exactly the opposite of what happened. You pull things from everywhere. So when it comes to manipulations and stuff I told you about the Win32 assembly community 2000s and and every now and then we made sure that that message board we had rules for that. It'll only be like grey area to white area topics. It's assembly group. So you're looking about the hackers and the crackers type the top of people. So anything greater to dark is not public because all the assembly other assembly groups those that went and talked about how this how you can crack this game this how you crack this software were brought down and closed and those people would be dispersed among whatever assembly groups left over or they make new ones up so every time one of these groups claps we'd have an influx of these elitist egotistical people and to make sure our community did not get pulled down like this just that we had to make sure as soon as they started talking about dark type topics like how to hook processes there are legitimate reasons for doing that but we don't say I started a process of saying you give me an example why you want to be able to hook a process and read the keys typed in and if it's a grey to white area top of reason we'll allow this thread to continue and talk about it we'll put in the ideas of how to do this stuff stuff you can use for hacking and cracking and everything else but it could not give that then obviously you only want to do the dark type usage of people's keyboard strokes and stuff then the thread would be closed down and would leave it up there so that any other 3-letter agencies that are going into these assembly forms and hacking sites and cracking sites could actually see we're stopping that stop it not only the information not being there but we're actively stopping that type of discussion in public it's still happening in private of course that really is brilliant that is brilliant and I would not have understood just a few years ago why something like that is necessary but now I see it just to give you a little bit of background on myself I don't know if you care but you're going to hear a little bit of it now so I do philosophy I wanted to say when you were talking about the Byzantine Generals Problem I'll just tell you this I'll just give you a little monologue here I'll have another lesson while you're talking so if you can solve the Byzantine Generals Problem well then if you can do that you get all these possibilities open up but people have said this is impossible and so they're looking elsewhere there's a great corollary that I'm very excited about which is in the philosophy of mind there's a problem of interaction if it's the case that mind and body are two fundamentally separate things how could they interact what is the mechanism of interaction that was posited since Descartes nobody's been able to solve it and people go well therefore it's unsolvable so they'll say dualism the idea that there's mind body problem are two separate things it sounds great it accords with all of our experiences and all of our theories and wow wouldn't it be great if it were true to the mind body problem that answers the interaction problem and still keeps the distinction between mind and body and it's not even that complex that's something that I'm working on right now anyway it's tangentially related because when talking to my wife she's also doing independent research about some of these things and she's getting into the health community and what she's found in the alternative health community our minds have collectively been blown the people that are the the problems in the community are those who think they know what the heck they're talking about they're the people on those forums in the crypto communities saying the Byzantine general problem is it's impossible to solve and you're wasting your time trying to solve it it's the people in the threat in the forums that you're talking about now that are arrogant pricks that think they know what's going on they're going to disparage anybody else for getting involved in crypto so now I see it I see it first hand and the stuff that I'm doing and stuff my wife's doing and now you say oh you let's say you weeded the garden the social garden at the beginning to get those out of there that's a nice analogy monologue this is a very good analogy because usually when the weeds consume enough nutrients so that the seeds from the flowers can't come through you've got to weed them doesn't have to be all the weeds just the biggest ones causing the biggest problems they'll allow the flowers to come through what we've found is it some of the most active members are not those that have been there three years, four years as members they might be only there for a few weeks or just a few months and some people have been there they started as a newbie three months ago they had a huge learning curve and that because they were helped even three months themselves were become a moderator because they were that active in the community compared to these people that have been there and their leaders attitudes and stuff they've got a great amount of knowledge that's great but they're not moving the community forward they could actually if they're not going to help they might cease to exist non-peers doesn't matter how elitist you are if you're not going to actually add to the community right well your piece starts off with a line you know there's a great difference between knowledge and understanding that's correct and you have those people who have great amounts of knowledge academics like part of what I do my show is I go around and talk to academics about different idea academics and other people like yourself beyond other people and what you find is a lot of these prestigious academics have incredible knowledge no synthesis of the knowledge no understanding of the knowledge and often times even little challenge about their beliefs in their knowledge set so like for example there's just a philosopher named Timothy Williamson he's known as probably the most prominent logician in the world and I got to talk to him everybody knows Timothy Williamson he's a classical logician but anyway I got to meet him in person and talk to him when we sat we talked over lunch we talked about some logic principles and I know that some very elementary basic questions about logic and the metaphysics of logic and what it is he'd not even thought about he'd never been exposed to the man has a massive amount of knowledge but he'd never been exposed to those particular ways of thinking because all the people around him already had their PhDs they already had their thought processes set in stone and they refused to engage with the newcomer or the person that has these fresh questions these fresh perspectives that they've literally never even heard before yeah also I'm going to degrade myself I went to university for a couple of years and was very disappointed in the educational institute I found that I was 2% for this assignment, 2% for that assignment do the very minimal to get that 2% not to actually learn the subject and try and push it further just do the minimal so at the end they got a degree but they got minimal knowledge or even understanding and they might go on to get a PhD and their PhD it's nothing special either it used to be supposed to do something very outstanding to get a PhD anyone seems to be able to get one but I'm not that type of person whatsoever is it the case though that it used to be that you need to do something outstanding to get a PhD because I thought that was the case as well but I treated it as an empirical question I'm open to the idea that actually you've just had people with the illusion of knowledge getting certification while actually not being knowledgeable do you know if the system was different back in the day? I've heard things like some people have said that they've had their papers sent back saying it's not academic wordy enough or whatever the vocabularies of how you know if you're not reaching for a dictionary or a the source every paragraph then you can't say that word use a word that's not usually used except for other people in the academic community so when we're communicating we can say oh yes, yes, yes and nobody else can understand it because we're much more knowledgeable because we know these words that are hardly ever used and then you've actually done it poorly you've actually failed that's actually a failure in my mind I agree and much of the stuff they don't know they're failing I think that's the setting this is again the reason you're writing very compelling is because that is true and in almost all circumstances, not all of them in almost all circumstances if you're using the big word the big fancy word it's probably a little bit less precise and if you use normal common language you're going to be a little bit more a little bit more sharp not only are people going to read and understand you but your actual concepts that much more precise you also got to take into account who's going to be reading your item right and this is going to be other academics and you know they're going to be judging you based upon how many large polysyllabic words you use then you're going to use large polysyllabic words the thing to say with the big one say the white paper itself all the emails were gathered to make this thing and one of the things that Dave said he actually said are you sure you want it worded like this when they're putting the ideas together for white paper I wanted to wait another six months because there's a lot more stuff to figure out but Craig had been promising someone about you know Craig was doing his own electronic cash and whoever he was talking to so there would be people know who was doing it he'd been telling people that in 2008 he'd come out with a white paper on what kind of cash he'd been working on and so since he'd been promising people of this and his one already failed he wanted me to put out my one and he'd be up there as a co-author it was supposed to be a co-author and I wanted Dave as an assistant he insisted Dave not being up there as an assistant on the white paper as an author so I thought my stuff would be about this long about a third of it and his stuff would be like two thirds of it he'd be a prototype material from his previous white paper he'd be adding to it I did not realise there were about 95% of it which is going to be my stuff yeah which is really really annoying it was really annoying so as I said we're going to write out how this thing works I said just copy and paste my descriptions from our emails and just put them in just reword it in your own words and and and then Craig didn't even do that so he actually asked me so I went and got through the emails and extracted stuff there was a lot more than what was in the white paper he actually cut himself out or Dave did and there was some I only gave them over about two thirds the three quarters of what was discussed one to go through as the first we left that completely because I thought well if he really wants a white paper he'll actually go through our emails and take a look which he never did so even if there's some fundamental stuff with Bitcoin that was never put into the white paper at all just because do you remember what it was it's hard obviously I record things about the geodesic sphere the initial data for it the data points the geodesic sphere is like one of those spheres made up of all triangles imagine a soccer ball but instead of being octagons and hexagons or pendergons they're all triangles the guy Buckminster Filler figured out and it's like a stronger structure the idea is to have that across the planet and all these the intersections they're actually GPS coordinates all right and that'll be the new regions in the planet and with tessellation any triangle you can put a a point along each line and make every triangle make into four triangles so you can tessellate this thing into different areas if you're based upon how many transactions are taking place per second or per minute or per month or whatever then you will see that that's where the tessellation of humanity is so if you've got four million people in a city or whatever then you will see four million transactions or if in the middle of Dakota or something like that you've only got one person to make a transaction there'll be one giant triangle taking over the large section of say the area but New York they'll be tessellated down to a strict level or even house level and the idea is every transaction is supposed to have GPS coordinates embedded in it it was never supposed to be this thing of criminals can use it it's supposed to be the exact opposite of what it turned out to be everything is supposed to be tracked so that if you know some funds were used in undesirable ways you can actually just not accept it it'll still be in the system and be used in the system if you personally can decide I want a transaction but I don't want a coin from that or from that so if you know some coin was stolen you can just this is stolen okay so that those funds can be transferred to me and if anyone else accepts them and then try to get it to me I'll say no sorry those funds I don't accept any funds coming from those stolen coins also criminals will find out that they can't move their funds wow that is fascinating there was supposed to be part of Bitcoin at the start but of course Craig only wanted an online gambling scammers like and that was left out that's so interesting because that part flatters my own political bias like I'm a radical libertarian I like the idea of not having all that stuff tracked because I think well then government's going to get access to all that data they're going to use it in nefarious ways they're going to say oh you can and can spend your Bitcoin on this product and not on that product so I kind of like the idea that that's not part of the system well it swings around about something okay the idea though is if we can make a system where the criminals and the social undesirables are forced to stay within the currency system so wow that's such an interesting idea right so say you got two companies right you got employees you got three types of employees you got two companies one is your company one is your competitors company one person is a really great guy he's proactive and he does really know stuff whatever now which company would you want them to be in yours you'd actually pay them extra or bend over backwards or give more time off or whatever for them to be in your company you got a mid-range person, an average person that's the work they do is just it's not mediocre but it's average which company should you be in or should you be in whatever doesn't matter because it's not going to change how successful the company is remember which they're in the other person that's really mediocre they do really report when they actually do do something they do it very poorly and waste funds or lose clients but you want them to be in your competitors company so you'll do anything you can to make the other life in the company undesirable to encourage them to go to your competitor in fact telling people in your company you should hire them so you want the social unsurables in your competitor and the awesome folks in yours now the same thing can be applied to Bitcoin or planetary civilization it's a transition right you want to transition from friends from my space to Facebook to Bebo well you want to be able to transition and they've got a trillion dollars with the weaponry and stuff you can't go blunt force you've got to be tricky and so you want the social undesirables to be in that company or that system and you want the best ones the one the most energetic in the minds and the capability in that to be and forward looking at to be in yours the average people does not matter which one they're in but you need this change and to do that you need to be able to track the funds so the criminals stay in the fair currency system we want to kick the criminals out of the Bitcoin or crypto community everyone's on the bus oh privacy through you privacy I want a planetary civilization and that's not going to work if it's all open for criminals to use at the moment that's the number one use case is criminal usage not normal people usage is day one Bitcoin has always been enough that is such a an attractive idea in theory so I got to think through this so I love it because what you're doing is rewarding the good guys which is great that's what needs to be done you need to have the incentive to reward the good guys and punish the bad guys but what do you do about the threat of governments regulating everybody's commerce let's say the governments don't have just laws aren't you then just giving a massive amount of data to governments to say hey look this person's a criminal according to your crappy laws ah well that's it what person you're pointing at you don't have a person you just have the coin you don't know who the person is you're just blocking the coin years and years ago right this is back in the mid 90s my wife and I this is part time thing we mucked around this from New Zealand there was a Maori centre in Palmerston North and they taught people how to weave flax alright so you know the flax plant and you make little strips out of it and you weave baskets and stuff out of it and I actually learned how to do that as well as I learned how to do flowers which is get one strip and you actually weave it up and down and around and around and then you go around and towards actually a flower and I actually made bouquets and other stuff like that but anyway they did for funding so it's non profit they would put on like the equivalent of bingo or raffles or raffles or something like that to click down like 1500 dollars in profit so they can put towards the community and it went it was stolen alright however my wife collected the fun together and her family in the past have set up successful raffle top things back in on the east coast of the North Island and one of the things they learnt to do is grab at random some of these are the notes 5 dollar notes 2 and 1 dollar notes when they were notes before they changed the coin and every single note as you might realise has a serial number on it and she'd write out of dozens and dozens of notes she'd grab 1 every 3 or 1 every 5 and write down the serial numbers alright and so these things were stolen and she gave the serial numbers to the police and about 2 months later the police came back and said we found them got them those notes they put a alert out and whenever they get fed back into the banks the banks themselves process all the serial numbers so anything on the alert pops up you see in the Batman movies with the radioactive tags on some of the notes in the Batman movie almost like that and it turns out this person went to Auckland went to one of the fares there and she'd got other kids from broken homes or whatever to go out and actually basically laundered the money by going to that $10 note going by a hot dog for $1 and get $9 change it's laundered money and then you got clean $9 but some of these notes come in so they found out that this is fair they went to the fairground and looked at the video footage and actually found the person that was actually giving the money out to the kids and all the rest and we actually know the person from this community and she was all rested so this idea of tracking money the idea of it was odd as after all the months before that going to houses and steal people's stuff as entertainment they don't do it because they're bad bad people or anything like that they do it just like someone would watch a movie sit down and watch a movie on TV or watch a sports program or play Xboxes or PlayStation and it makes going break into places as a form of entertainment still cars not because they want to get somewhere but as a form of entertainment as a cultural disconnect well they're social and desirable so you don't want those type of people now but wouldn't that example be a demonstration that if you had some kind of geographic tracking on the bitcoin that a law enforcement agency could still track you down even if they only you know I don't know the geo thing is not to do with tracking that was to generate a geotech so that every transaction 0.001% ends up going into a geotech for that region so whoever is the authority in that region has the authority to move those funds on projects and resources and stuff that was to do with how to replace the taxation system so there's no personal tax business tax property tax value added tax service tax replaced by one transaction tax as a geotech so that if there's 100,000 people in one geolocation right the other ones that will have the most trucks on the road right and the weight of trucks on the road the weight of a vehicle on the road is like exponential so that bicycles make no damage whatsoever but a car makes a medium a truck a lot of damage and so that's why the cost of registration of vehicles on the road the bigger the heavy the machine the more they've got to pay because the damage in the roads the idea of having bicycles should be registered no no they're doing no damage you guys are vehicles are so the idea is how do you replace the taxation system because this idea of having a tax service or revenue office you've got the treasury department of all these nations and they need some funds for running the country and doing stuff and so they've got a taxation service and it's a huge mess and it still allows the rich companies and the rich individuals to send funds overseas and all this offshoring of accounts and things and Google have done it and the US has just changed the taxation system the last few months that allows them to not be taxed as much and so now they're transferring their funds back to the US all this system there is there is no offshore there is literally no offshore there's no because it exists everywhere Bitcoin and so the taxation system the geo tax goes in New York so all the people that are sending transactions in New York City will actually be generating geo tax for New York City and whoever is the authority in New York City will have those funds available to spend in New York City that has got approved in their transaction the system the authority in the general political area that still haven't been worked out on exactly how to do that how to put a GPS coordinate in the system without relying on the third party to for generating that coordinate and confirming it so that's why the first release of Bitcoin did not have this everything that relied on the third party system or what they called Oracle nowadays and just have the pure peer-to-peer cash part of it without trusting any third parties and this other stuff is supposed to be brought back in and experimented on to see if we can get this going because this is the whole purpose of it if you're not going to take over the world why do we need this? well so I like to imagine so I'll just reveal my political bias I am a market anarchist so I'm somebody that you know I want everything to be I want all the services of government to be provided by markets I don't think monopolies should be in anything the system absent the geotexting thing I'm saying oh this is great when you look at it and think this can be something that's used by taxation agencies to be more efficient essentially where does the trust in government come from because what if you have it seems like that can just be abused easily by crummy governments what do you mean I'm aware all governments are being abusive in their positions every single one so wouldn't it be better than to not even have that part of the package the geotagging thing um it's still come down to the idea of how things how's a pot hole in the road going to be fixed and people say oh well it was done in the past well no in the past you had industrial ownership which means people that owned the industries the factories and stuff they would pay to have the road maintained between the factory and the ports but all the roads in the residential area they were still dirt and stone that's where we'll go to if you want all the ash felt to be pulled up and go back to dirt and stone fine you go with your liberal anarchist ideas but in reality ash felt it's expensive and it's got to be coordinated to be more efficient the problem at the moment is it's already abused at the moment with with once someone's got a government contract the price doubles and triples and quadruples alright that's what you are probably you're going by it'd be more efficient meaning not so wastage if it's more market driven so that alright well it depends on what's needed if you're going to maintain roads strip the layers off and lay a new layer on top the machines to do that are very very costly right the expertise to use those machines and do it's costly so usually it's specialization when it comes to specialization you don't have a market of saying I can choose that person you want to get that person or that person and if you choose whatever one you choose the other one will go out of business or have to move away from the region and get contracted elsewhere other things like right can be more flexible but again there's scales everywhere and the stuff that can be switched or just like this so you're going to have you're going to have say a dozen companies that will do their rubbish collection on the side of the road machine comes along model companies in one city that are doing different suburbs not just one covering the whole district so things like that would be okay doing roads maybe not so much because it's more specialized that's a reasonable objection it makes me think there's some work by Mr. Block who's a kind of extreme economist but he covers roads a bit and I'm okay with the idea of going back to like business ownership the idea well the business has an incentive to keep maintaining the roads because they have an incentive for me to drive there so that would be one even the transition to go from public ownership to private ownership of roads would be very bumpy this is just kind of theoretical it's fascinating to me because the Bitcoin without the taxation part flatters my own political bias so it's so interesting to hear that that wasn't even part of it because the main part was to make a planetary civilization and for that you need to be able to get the social undesirables to stay in the old system it'll actually accelerate if the percentage of undesirables increases in the fair currency system it's failure will be accelerated so if you look at if you look at Isaac Asimov's foundation the idea is the current system is going to collapse within a thousand years and there'll be anarchy for like 30,000 years right and they couldn't figure out they couldn't stop it from collapsing but what they could do is create this foundation which will end up within a thousand years superseding or taking over and so within a thousand years a new empire will be formed from this foundation and so there won't be a thousand years of collapse in anarchy instead of 30,000 well this idea is and it's been on which what happens it could accelerate this person was killed it'll accelerate within 50 years instead of 500 years and all this other stuff the same thing if you can make it so that the undesirables can because I was not necessarily criminals because you're going to have a whole discussion of what's a criminal if you really look at the criminal books are all criminals at some stage it all depends on which ones are going to be enforced right and who's doing the enforcing and everything else but that's why it's the same criminals I prefer to say social undesirables right social undesirables to stay within the fair currency system you accelerate its collapse which is going to happen inevitably so do you think of your when you step back and do meta analysis do you think of yourself as like like a political theorist is not quite the right term but something like a big picture social theorist I don't categorization that's up to other people to decide they have their own fights of what I'd be categorized under because the idea is to focus on the worker of what you want to do okay I want to be put into this category this is the type of stuff I want to do so I can put into this category one thing follows the other and so be other people from the outside that will be putting the finger and putting your little boxes it sounds like a problem because then all of a sudden you say but hang on but he's doing this that's outside my little box right right he's doing it wrong because it's outside my box he's not being libertarian he's doing something that's actually very capitalist in fact that movie with Gordon Gekko he says that thing about greed for lack of a bit of a word is good right there's so many people that are against that I think that's great I give it two thumbs up greed is absolutely fantastic without greed Bitcoin would not work the thing that glues it all together is if you go through the deadly sins and this is actually I went through the deadly sins I'll just type it up here the idea is if you can use the about manipulation control and stuff like that and how people in authority tell you what to do how to behave that how to come into all this time and time again and about the control over the masses and everything else and I've mentioned something about if this is how a human being acts staturally without being swarmed or told or anything but you made laws saying you've got to behave like this the exact opposite of being a human being but if you were to be a human being you had to act like this you're going against your natural human instincts and abilities they don't want you to be a human being they want you to be a character as part of it coming out of the seven deadly sins I remember telling someone I said it's all bullshit because if you go through the seven deadly sins if you commit all of those so-called sins that makes you a human they're saying that you shouldn't go there they don't want a human so I've got to listen to those lust, gluttony, greed, sloth wrath, envy, pride the idea is you apply those and look at how Bitcoin is set up and you should see most of those actually used or at least they've gone through to see which one was as strong as we found greed was great lust what other people are in envy like the fear of missing out all that type of stuff is and so the idea is if you use that the seven deadly sins gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath envy, pride don't look at that as something you should not do you should use it as a list like a bucket list I'm going to do something this month that will tick off lust that you should do if you were going to be a human being and so the idea is the creator system that uses that because what other people tell you don't do that you're going to do it anyway that's a normal trait so are you thinking about that so I guess a better way of saying are you a social theorist is to say when you're thinking about Bitcoin are you actually incorporating thoughts about the seven deadly sins and social theory into your creation or is it hey I'm thinking about making this monetary thing and it's going to have all these other properties that just accord with the social analysis a little bit of both a small light so when I started the project after getting up craigs one two weeks I was thinking about all this other stuff I've done and literally looked at my old stuff and I thought wow this guy really needs some really weird stuff and complicated stuff I look at my own stuff after five years I'm looking at you think wow I'm going to do that now this guy must be in the office he's faced to be able to do this pretty a pick micro controller assembler and making out of x86 assembler and a program that will assemble that other assembly language which is just the nerds and geeks don't do that so it's too stupid but yeah so it started like 1st of June around there 2008 and the ideas if things like the business owner general's problem were solved or in a practical manner and there's other things you will get these benefits of being able to move digital assets and stuff like that and be able to lock it in so that only one person owns that digital assets and prove that only that person owns it and you can't make copies and stuff and so all the other benefits well what else you can do you can do it for listing and use for property ownership you could use it for taxation you could do it so all this stuff building up and things well after two weeks thought the benefits are so great you could actually create a planetary civilization if this thing was solved for you at the cash side you could actually create a whole new way of human existence change the whole future course of the human species so that's great so it's worth an attempt anyway and so I wasn't just trying to cash but then I thought okay well I need some assistance in this because I learned a bit about crypto and stuff I wasn't a highly expert level of it so I need someone to bounce ideas off and I started looking at some of the people in the current mainly listed crypto communities and looking at what they were writing about and see if they would actually be open to answering my questions and communicating and I found out that most of them would not but I also thought well I'm already communicating I didn't want anything to do with Craig or Dave at that point and I thought there's only two other people I know that would be useful and that's Craig and Dave but always I come in to help them with their little thing and said yeah it's a waste of time not going to work so he pissed if I came in and said well I'm going to give it a go myself but I want you to assist me this time I thought they're going to say no anyway but here's a guy this is Thomas Craig I bumped into Dave in the crypto IRC channel type thing asking for help with his mates electronic cash program I just listened on the sidelines and then actually helped them out but even before communicating with Craig they get Craig to make him a fake email account so that it's the black project obviously the only real black project I've done and so right from the start I'll have a disconnect between myself and any other online persona and any communication there so I actually said to him Craig create email address email accounts and I'll use that to communicate with them so I was using a fake email account with Craig the entire time he didn't even know my real name the entire time and so when I was looking for someone else to help me with my project I thought would any of these academic people go and create a fake account and for us to communicate I thought no none of them would but Craig would would any of them anything we talk about would they go ahead look at their references and every references get those documents try and contact the author to see if that's the latest update of information for that white paper document and then look at those references and get those ones and read them and then try and contact their authors none of them there's only one person I know on the planet that had that type of mind that's Craig when it comes to personal assistance driven to research it's like it's not author charts it's not the chart that doesn't exist for someone like him so he was even in the assembly community I never heard of anyone getting a white paper about something and then having them go and try and communicate with the author to see if that document that was written say 10 years before has had more new information come to light that improved it and then go through the references for that and contact those read those documents and contact those authors and again and again I've only ever met Craig that does that so you can't just put him down and drive him down and they're like oh the force came out no no he's got some attributes beyond anyone else I know about I'd still put him one side and everyone else on the other alright for some things and so I decided well I'll go back to them and say well I'm going to give it a go anyway I'm going to try and do this handkerchief civilization thing part of it needs to be solved solved and if it does solve it means technically we should be able to use this for creating an electronic cache that actually works alright but there's at the moment the only absolute guarantee is that we can fail anyway because it's impossible alright there's a little 100,000 academics and mathematicians and good scientists with a million years of expertise saying this is impossible how arrogant would be to say I'll give it a go anyway not at all and so yeah so yeah Craig was really really pissed off and Dave had to calm him down because he could understand my perspective so after a week or a few days I decided to go back and we are but one of the discussions was you ask about at what point we were discussing this right at the beginning I was talking about I always had a problem with James Bond movies the James Bond movies and the villains that have gotten there all these villains for James Bond they're always trying to take over the current world and always failed and I had discussions with Craig and I said why are they trying to take over the current world if they're taking over these nations with a trillion dollars worth of weaponry have they got a trillion dollars weaponry how are they going to take over the world the best way was to take over the world of tomorrow something else is even more impossible and and weaponry and part of this transition disappears it becomes ineffective that power gets taken away there's a transfer of power transfer of wealth then as a Bond villain you could actually take over the world of tomorrow and succeed right and so that was part of it right from the beginning now with that though you've got this the Bond villain idea taken over the world but it seems like from what you communicated maybe this is the little agent or the thing going on here but it seems like this is for the benefit of planetary civilization this is not to to extort people and make money it seems like you've got this idea hey I solved this problem we found a planetary civilization around this principle and the ones that benefit are the good actors yeah that's what I think one of the other discussions I had yeah yeah yeah another one was something like Darth Vader villain type things right some of that that's at least written down or written as it's supposed to be the real evil bad person what if you've got some real bad actors in the world real bad ones that they've got access to lots of phones and weaponry now what if the only way to take them out is to be like them to be an evil bastard the only way to take them out it's like the only way to take out a drug den is to be a drug dealer yourself right the only way to take out a dictatorship a murderous dictatorship in a nation is to be a murderous dictator yourself none of this white hat cowboy the top of movies that you have in Hollywood where the good guy always wins bullshit, the bad guy always wins but marketing PR says we're good guys right so if that's the case then it may be a case that okay so you want to make a planetary civilization that's good and uplifting that because if we need to expand out to other planets and take over the star system and go out to other star systems we've got to be an environment where it's driving the entire society to be active in a positive way innovative, creative and all the rest not just sitting down with the beard drinking and if all the people that are in power with all the funding or the weaponry or the star are evil bastards how can you possibly go against that unless you are also like that which means you've got to build a society which is exactly it's for the opposite of who you have to be to go against the other guys and so that was one of the ideas is whatever it's like super villain that also had a Robin Hood complex some that could be manipulative and deceptive to actually have a big transfer of wealth but also doing so is making it for the benefit of the current poor take away from rich be a rich person to be able to transfer the wealth from the rich to the poor so yeah these discussions took place again it's impossible to do any of this what are the problems when it comes to centralization or at least the concentration of funds saying like is it like just a number of 95% of the funds are owned by about 100 people or 100 watts in Bitcoin or something like that yeah but who owns them if the transfer of wealth isn't to a bunch of people that are nerds and geeks and stuff they'll use those funds that they want to see happen things like well it comes back to electricity which we were talking about ages ago you got the prefer work that's actually quite an amazing thing not hash cash prefer work right that generates it makes you generate use up a lot of electricity and trends the old thermal dynamics of transfer that energy into coin now at the moment it's consuming as much electricity as Denmark or something or Ireland or all of New Zealand right so how much that nation consumes within a day how much it takes in a year and something we'll make predictions that by 2021 it'll consume as much electricity as the entire planet or what would generate right now now it comes back down to say crazy it's one thing to think oh this could happen it should like this and then actually it's actually happening there's other stuff in place yet so it might actually be the end of it all because these other things that's taking the pace have not been done yet and so I might have killed it killed it all I told someone, they said I'm placing it with my stake and all these other ideas all those other ideas existed before bitcoin and they always thought through it prefer work is the best one of the benefits is that it will kill us all it will kill us all one of the benefits is that it will kill us all yeah that requires a bit of explanation right so if you're going to use any of this your editing skills will be amazing because if you ask a question here and then I'll go there and I'll go for tangent and then at some stage like two conversations further down I finally get back to it again so you're going to be I'm probably not going to this is still the preface this is still being introduced to one another yeah alright okay this is one of the reasons why I'm writing this stuff down what I do remember is it comes back because it's important even if it's it's important isn't it even if it's just an interesting thing alright we've got Bitcoin we're going to if that stuff happened we would be really stuffed thank goodness he actually failed to do what he tried to implement right yeah this was bad to actually improve Bitcoin and get rid of prefer work and change it to prefer a stake or some other nonsense or even to lock it down to one megabyte so it restricts how much I that's not going to actually affect it shouldn't affect how much machines come online anyway even if with BTC locking it down one megabyte and the amount of transactions is fixed now you can handle it per second the security part of it when it comes to mining is decoupled totally decoupled you can actually now if all these companies in the world they can actually outsource the security for their company because of this technology at the moment the greatest attack vector I've got sidetracked from what I was going to say just a second the greatest attack vector in any company or system the great big white elephant in the room is the developers and the administrators the ones that are supposed to be secure in the network they are actually the greatest threat to that network Bitcoin one of the ideas behind it is that you can now outsource that security in the sense of there's a thing about software I even pre-tweeted it a few months ago where for our system to be the most secure possible you should be able to have everything exposed except for the actual key itself the private key everything else about the system should be exposed to the public and accessible to make the most secure and as far as I'm aware only one system on the planet does that Bitcoin all right other system I've tried to follow afterwards why I'm making their projects open source but they think it's open source because of some sort of libertarian ideal or something nothing of the sort I'm actually against open source software I think that always always going to be rubbish software that people involved in open source software are driven for having something on their resume to make them look themselves up in the community they're involved and think look at me I made this thing everyone uses aren't I great they're not driven to make that software the best in the world while companies they've got their wages on the line they've got the house that they're paying off or the rent that they're paying for the software to be better than anyone else's software they're driven so you're saying that so I'm against I'm actually against open source software on a driven sense of how good it is I think it's rubbish for Bitcoin to for Bitcoin to succeed everything had to be open for the security model part of it if any part of it could be hidden away that's not secure the system for say firing off missiles of an F-16 fighter this is military grade military grade software really do we have access to that software no it's not so good then if you've got to hide it away from the public the software ain't too good when you're securing stuff for your company you keep going any data that gets put somewhere that's encrypted with it right encrypted with the public key so only you can decrypt it that data can be sent into a block block chain does not necessarily have to be cash it doesn't have to be a currency it's only data we just treat this data as cash we treat this data as ownership of a property we treat this data as something else so the most important data into a block chain is the miners lock it away only the people that have got the private key can actually read it decrypt it and read it and so the most important data in a company instead of having storing stuff on a disc tape whatever and then making two copies and one stored in a safe on site and no one stored at someone's administrator's home and no one stored somewhere else so if there's any failure you've got these tapes you've got to rewind the last days with the work well the most important data can be encrypted and miners got nothing to do with your company can really be betting it into a block chain fascinating outsourcing the the greatest things and it's not like any security it's the most important parts of your security so that if something really happened there's going to be 5 nuclear war if you're going to build up a planetary civilization it's not going to be switching on like this it's going to be built up in different sections the poorer nations will come on board first because they need the funding and they've got sanctions against them or something and the rich countries were the very last the US and Russia and China have difficulties they've been exploited by the western nations the resources of the lands have been suppressed by the world trade world military organization giving them loans so that western nations can come in and dig the resources out of the ground and process them and give them pittance or these are the ones that need to be helped out right alright so yeah well so saying that brought up a couple of questions one question we'll have to you said two or three questions and I think I'll totally rule them one of them I remembered because you were saying we're all going to die so I'm not going to forget that one but before we do that one I do want to ask because in that answer you're revealing a certain ethics I look at this as a philosopher so I'm interested in your world view and how you're piecing things together so your ethics informs your political theory so where do you fall then I know you're not a big fan of labels but you think there's obviously some role for government that some redistribution of wealth is okay the bad you got to pretend somewhat to be the bad guy for a little bit in order to make things better in the future if there was a label that is closest to your own political philosophy what do you think it is I don't know again there'll be other people to see what I do to decide that myself one of the things I used to do as a kid is I'm from Christchurch in New Zealand it's a totally flat city and so you can cycle everywhere you know the kid always does cycle all the way to the place and I see people on the side of the road and in my mind I try and go through the story of why that person is physically there at this time of day on this day what's the backstory this happened at home or they happened on the way to this location and come up with dozens of stories just to cycle and see the person and every now and then I'd stop and actually talk to a person and whatever they gave me that would be completely different from an era I could think of I used to do this over and over again it's just like learning how to mass at school it's not so that you can use it in real life it's so that you can train your brain to think in a certain particular manner so I was training myself to figure things out that just by glancing I'd be able to try and figure out a solution that led to that answer and of course failed again and again and again but it's trained my mind to look at something and instantly try and figure out so that's the goal what's the process to lead up to that goal which means that led me into doing electronics and programming and computers when you're programming or designing application of programs one of the main things you need to do is be able to think this is where we are this is where I'm going to be these are the steps to take methodology that's so critically important but it could be not just training myself to be like that so it could be a case of that's just the way my brain was anyway and when I was programming like BBC Micros practice games and Comma 64 I was just somehow for some reason I just happened to start applying it to what I saw around me with people and other things when most people would only be using it for programming on the computer and that's all they did and they had interaction with anything else I was actually applying that into what I saw around the world I'd see something on the news accepting it like most people I'd say why are they about saying okay how did they come to blows like that why are they doing that what was involved none of it would be correct though but it's the thinking process that did it all so when it comes to what group will I be in well it means it means I was able to you know people got empathy you empathize with other people usually because something that's happened to you is similar to what's happened to them so you can feel sad for them or happy for them that type of stuff but very rarely can people actually take on the perspective of another person they really cannot take on the perspective of the other person as if they really were in that person's shoes taking out of that person's eyes hearing what that person's hearing but I've been practicing that I've been practicing if I was that person what would I be doing if I'm walking like that I must have a sore foot I guess I've got a sore foot and that type of stuff I've got my pants are shabby so I've probably got an older sibling and there's a hand me down so I'm not looking happy because here my sibling's getting the new clothes and they haven't got the old so when it comes to what category I buy myself and probably say I'm in all of them what can be placed in all of them but you can do the Myers-Briggs test and try and categories well that depends on whether I've had a coffee that morning or not whether I'm hungry or not I switch and change anyway some people hardly ever change and can be categories they'll always love making lists about stuff and telling people to go through these lists and they never change the decades you can categorize those people but someone that can actually be flexible and take on different post-owners it's a bit more difficult I think it's just it's a great, I definitely want to comment on that so it's a great point and I think it's just shorthand instead of asking individual questions like what do you think the role of government is in this particular circumstance there are definitely cross cutting patterns and belief systems that you can roughly categorize well more often than not I agree with the Libertarian position or the conservative position or whatever but I totally see what you're saying and I will comment because what you just described is that I have to clip that part out definitely and whatever comes out of these conversations because you just described the thought pattern of I would say it's philosophy I'm biased because I come from the philosophic background but when you're saying you put yourself in the other person's mindset you must do that when you're doing philosophy it's the exact same thing when somebody tells you a belief you have to say okay, now if I were that person and had that belief what would the other beliefs in my net of beliefs, what would they have to be in order to support that conclusion if I believe X it must be that I presuppose Y if I presuppose Y I got to presuppose Z you have to take these conversations and people's ideas and intellectual positions as a whole package system from the other person's point of view it's almost like a version of empathy it's like intellectual empathy or something it's so critical intellectual, it's got real empathy I don't really have that intellectual, but most people can only take it so far they can try and understand I'm going to think that, but all the other steps they probably find it very very difficult so back to so we're all going to die from Bitcoin we're going to die from Bitcoin I told you about this evil villain type thing right the brinkmanship involved in this is do or die we're going to do it or not you have things like global warming climate change global warming actually it's got a bit colder climate change if it stops changing then they'll come up with something else climate stasis however I've always been pissed off about that why are they going CO2 they should be going on about the pollution pollution is far worse it's hotter and colder it's the pollution that's actually causing that pollution is more than just CO2 emissions and all the nations that will control CO2 emissions will plant more trees what about the toxic waste and even aluminium the process for creating aluminium that's everywhere now it creates toxic waste all the ground or whatever in the process how are you going to clean that up I'll put it in a barrel and sink it in the ocean yeah good one why don't you build a rail gun and shoot it into the sun hey now that was not a bad idea I like that I've got a few ideas like that one of them is to get us into low-earth orbit fast is to if you have a ship or even a plane you've got these those lightening rods you see on the aircraft if you stick that one at the front of a plane because it's not a plane it's something else because that's where the radar dish is inside the last stone stick it at the front there and so it was ionizing ionizing the air molecules in front of it something like 20 tesla or 30 tesla coils inside the ionizing all the air molecules in a volume and then you make with this positive or negative ion you do the opposite for the skin of the machine so it's actually pushing against it so it's effective against the skin which means you haven't got the air drag which means instead of taking say 17 hours or 15 hours between Sydney and San Francisco you can do it within an hour or half an hour well the same amount of power it just goes faster people say it's too long a distance a few centuries ago it would have taken like 6 weeks 4 months to go that distance it's not the distance that's the problem on this planet it's the faster we're going and these jumbo jets they're going too slow we're going to make them faster so if you're going to ionize the air around it it probably won't work but because you're still pushing forward there's still going to be a forward push on the ion so it probably wouldn't change anything anyway but I've thought about that type of stuff so if you can do that you can also make a rail gun or a rail sled instead of having aerodynamic shapes you can have big blocky shapes like a brick and just fire that up and it's just going through the sky through the sky in a vacuum type thing and do that into low-worth orbit and then off to the sun off to the moon from moon base and all the rest but are these future projects? a few future projects but again it takes a lot of electricity to do that any planetary civilization or type 1 planetary civilization which is a type 1 planetary civilization is one that re-soccles everything so all the stuff we put in our recycle bins everything that you put in ends up being recycled we cannot do it at the moment because the machinery we use and the humans we use to break it apart and refine it is just so inefficient and uneconomic however you've got to stop thinking just like a Bond villain stop thinking about how the civilization is right now thinking about how it's going to be very shortly that's what you've got to get out towards one is we're going to have machines doing everything right set out intellectual thinking at least not for a while and so we are going to have machines collecting our rubbish instead of being a driver in a truck and scooping it up it'll be a machine to control that vehicle not only that you'll have machine helpers that come out and you don't even have to put your bins out there they'll come in and to wherever your bins are located and drag them out to the truck and pick it up you don't have to put out your bins anymore yay to the extent that you can actually have a hole on the side of your kitchen that when you put the trash in your kitchen rubbish in your kitchen automatically and it comes around and grabs it and you don't even have to take that rubbish out of your house anymore alright and that rubbish truck will go to a facility and they'll break it apart and there'll be a whole lot of little robots you would have seen them in things like the clone wars when you had little tiny robots helping out in a mechanic shop same type of thing but this will be hauling apart all the different elements of the rubbish going back to the refineries things like when you manufacture iron, the iron smelters they actually put bits of old iron, any previous iron, in with it so you've got the iron ore you've got some coal in there and other elements and previously made iron or steel they put in there and so that would happen for everything so everything would be recycled so you've got CO2 emissions now is this idea playing into the planetary death caused by bitcoin or is this not yeah because if you're a fan of science fiction books some of them are for the utopian type of futures because we go to dystopian and the whole lot is rex we're heading that way anyway and it would need a big swift kick at the backside we're heading towards the more utopian and the utopian is one where you've got unlimited energy unlimited power, I've told you before and about weaponry or say tools rural tool users and the greatest tool at the moment is electricity but we're still restricted how long does a battery last at the moment the batteries haven't changed much in the last two or three decades you put a battery into your machine weaver and it drains after a few days and then also you're going to replace it you should be able to put a little battery into something and it lasts there for a year with good usage not talking too much about an eye beacon that puts a little battery in at last six months to about something that's mechanized should the battery should be more powerful and so what we can do at moving forward is restricted on how much electricity we can generate and how cheap it is how it's dispersed stored and so this comes down to utopian society with robots there's going to take a lot of electricity after moving in and out to take trucks to grab your rubbish and that they'll be running by a battery so the battery technology has to be a lot more powerful so to get to the stage of having excess amount of electricity being generated we need a way to force that to happen and it's been slowing down the last decade or so the economics for clean energy is poor solar panels and wind a lot of it's because coal companies the politicians are inside the pocket they're coming something and electricity digging up the coal from the ground or where it's crushing it or taking it to the generation factory generation buildings they're incentivized to keep that in play the promise that was a prefer work there was a solution in the CO2 the idea is that whether you've got climate change or whatever else it's happening too slow then grandchildren great grandchildren's time will have big bushfires here and floods there it's going to be a real mess but it was moving too slow because the ones that are changing the laws are controlling the funds they're going to be dead in a few short years they only care about the next election in four years time and maybe the one after that but they're not looking past one generation they're barely looking past the next election so they're not going to make anything that's going to actually benefit the continuation of the human species and they've all proved themselves that time and time again so the ideas take the power of making that decision away from them right and so you've got this prefer work the whole thing using parts of the certain deadly sins to incentivize people to bring more machines online and hash more and at some stage we're going to end up getting things like brownouts right usually you might have something like say five coal generation electricity generation buildings during the daytime to take over the pick out but say there's usually three of them on during pick out another one gets brought on another one just in case everyone puts the coffee on and the toast is down and it's off to go to work and it goes down to about three during the daytime the evening time say it goes up again to four whatever and then but at night times at night times it goes down to about two maybe probably just one with a possible another one kicking in but you just one during the night and electricity is stopped cheaper and everything else for the retail folks and the thing is and the whole system to get up like this and so when it comes to the whole supply line it's all going to these to those stations it's based upon it takes a certain amount of coal to burn for the steam engines to tune the turbines to generate the electricity and it's all figured out and then all of a sudden here comes the Bitcoin holy shit what's happening now these things are running 24 hours aren't they it's on peak time it's 24 hours so you've got these five stations running there's always one to for backup type thing and during the daytime you've got to bring another one on board at night time when they used to have this many now there's this many and then I think oh oh but we've already sold that coal to that nation over there you can't have those but we need more coal because we haven't got enough electricity because these bastards are running these miners and it's all of a sudden we're going to have to start switching off the brownouts because of this right so and it's decentralized they can't stop it how are you going to stop it now do you think that just simple price appreciate like the as the cost of electricity goes up eventually you're going to hit like a market equilibrium where people don't have the electricity is too expensive to put on more additional bitcoin miners on the market differently that's why you've seen from the past when it was on the planet to it's gone down now to nations where it's cheap electricity I think US is like twice as expensive as China but Australia and New Zealand more expensive than in the US right so over here it's very very difficult hitched up with a naturally electricity supplier and you're able to take the excess generation then you can't really do it over here much it's a business model but that's always going to balance out and that's what made it kill it is to actually force all the electricity prices up retail wise and all of a sudden can't afford to run it right but some of these people what they're doing is you're retailing your business and some of them now are large enough to get enough there's not one or two it's actually buying us out a hundred of them and then put them into a warehouse and seeing it as a business so they're getting business rates not retail rates so it's it varies but the climate change is happening too far too slow it's the same old thing even if you ignore the political climate itself as a species will become extinct within a few hundred years if nothing gets changed so and the thing is with the way technology is you think oh yeah you're about four generations away yeah well the way the medical prices is changing at the moment we could still be alive then right not the ones in power at the moment but those are I'm supposedly mid-aged but I could be a young one really so the time I get to old age we might have chemical stuff to actually reverse some of the aging effects right so it's not anyone's mind whatsoever that we're going to live past a hundred but we could be here in 250 years time talking about stuff about the people that are currently in charge won't be here I hope not but I've got other plans if they are but yeah it's happening too slow we've got to accelerate it so here comes back to the old thing of being an evil villain type person right it's going to cause calamity and death and all that that's to win we've got to accelerate it and use freakmanship to risk killing us all so you've got Bitcoin, that's why Prefer works so great that solves so many problems including this one of extinction and none of this was talked about in the Bitcoin community because it's beyond but they're payneval only the currency side was talked about yeah so so the idea is to accelerate so that in one single generation we either succeed in solving the electricity the electricity problem we've got one people not this nation these nations throwing rocks you're all going to go if you don't solve the problem now the thing is what about electricity when it comes so cheap because it's so easy to generate power yeah and what sort of society would we have we've got unlimited electricity if you read any science fiction books every one of them hits towards utopia we want we have railguns everywhere if you want to send products to Australia and New Zealand you don't have to send a ship, you just fire them towards them yeah so we either solve the problem or we're all going to die and that's a great incentive this all comes into human incentivization and if someone's threatened with death they will be driven to action they will get off the server and stop watching their sport and drinking their beer and they will do something alright and if they die then that type of person doesn't exist anyway right so when you're thinking about this at a fundamental level you're coming up with this when you're looking at the Byzantine generals problem are you viewing this through the lens of the social the evil villain Darwinist, we got to accelerate human extinction or is that like way down the road when you're thinking about it now that you say it, it sounds a bit crazy it sounds this is so wrong however if it's not done we will be all extinct in a few hundred years but in a hundred years we wouldn't be able to change it anymore 100 years later everything will be a wasteland if we accelerate now it's a boiling frog scenario I've told other people that at the moment we're in a big pot and we're in the pot and it's slowly being heated up it's going to take four generations until it's boiling then we won't be able to jump out or whatever and we'd be dead what we're going to do is put the flames on underneath we're going to get them boiling as fast as we possibly can as soon as they're bubbling we'll leap out if we don't we're dead we're already going to perish the pathway we're already on so we need a way to get find a way to generate electricity and great quantities you got a systems thinker so it makes sense that you're not just looking at this as a nice token you can use for playing poker online you're looking at the intergalactic implications of this so what I want to ask you though is when you are when you self reflect how do you how seriously do you take these ideas because you're seeing that you're solving the Byzantine general problem and creating bitcoin has worked so your theoretical understanding you came up with a system that actually worked that lends some credence to your theorizing about things when you're thinking about these other stuff and you're thinking about these huge big picture stuff are you like yeah it's kind of a game it's kind of fun to think about are you taking that with as much seriousness as the ideas merit there's a scale right of some of the ideas you just wouldn't ever work using railguns to shoot up into space the gas itself is what 70% nitrogen or 75% nitrogen so you're not going to be able to ionize that are you as far as I'm aware or maybe you can with enough Tesla energy used but a lot of this is you've got to come up with the ideas anyway go what a work in this case what if this happened what if that happened you never know everyone else in the world looks at something and sees the end result and then they can go backwards to try and unwind how that was come how it was created in the first place or decided upon but when you start from the beginning you don't know which way it's going to go not at all so some of these ideas are just thrown around the ideas of the geodesic sphere and all the rest fundamental problem still exists today of how do you get a GPS coordinate into a transaction and be able to confirm that that coordinate is actual the real coordinate and not just one that's been made up the only way is if you had satellites where they themselves have private public keys that's sign the GPS coordinate but the technology didn't exist at the time I've heard that Elon Musk is about to start shooting up mini satellites everywhere for internet access all right now the same thing for GPS system to enhance the one we currently use but then you've got to have your phone be able to communicate with this device these new satellite devices and have them be known so there's some sort of oracle knowing that these are real satellites not faked ones and these are the these are the private keys for those satellites and they can sign saying that coordinate came from that satellite that coordinate came from that satellite it's been better than trying the transaction all this stuff has to be done otherwise it's all we're doing is relying on a a number in a transaction which could have been faked all right so if this other stuff isn't built then it's not going to happen if the majority of people involved in the technology are just scammers and fraudsters and all these multi-level marketers and speculators about 99% are all the people doing trading all the ones that are doing they usually trade stocks but now they're investing in Bitcoin or cryptocurrency all them are buying it so that some other smart can come in behind them buy somebody at a higher price and they can sell their stuff and make money it's all the same game they might use them terminology but it's the same game they're all pyramid schemes of some sort even property markets you buy property so that some idiot even if it's a decade or two decades longer come in and buy it for a higher price and if that did not happen the whole scheme would collapse so they're all pyramid schemes you can just change the philosophy and the vocabulary but it's still the same but most of these ideas it's all the same stuff remember the invention was made first and then it was used as an electronic cash there's no Bitcoin invention there's no such thing as a Bitcoin invention Bitcoin is the pref of concept experiment of the invention the invention could be used for this or it could also be used for electronic cash and electronic cash because it's most important if you're going to make a planetary civilization you need it in global currency if this did not work as a global currency you could not the rest of it planetary civilization could not go ahead and also the two people that I had assisting me are only for the electronic cash side of things so that had to be the first one there once they had that they did not want all the other stuff so for you are you I don't remember if you said we might have had the connection break but are you working with anybody to bring about more of the of this original ideas there's a million people in the Bitcoin cash community that I'm sure would be really excited because this is something that you've just forgotten are you working on other stuff well some of the BTC guys don't like me in the sense of I think I tweeted out somewhere about how Bitcoin cash forked back to Bitcoin and BTC soft forked into an altcoin and that upset a few of them or those that read that tweet because whether you got soft fork or hard fork before that delineation was made it was called forking right so the BTC crowd blockchain crowd the block stream crowd and all those they made this delineation to try and market a fork in a certain particular direction which in turn broke Bitcoin because they never understood it these experts never understood even as electronic cash they even brought an add-in back to be a figurehead for block stream to try and give it self-credits even the Bitcoin foundation I think Gavin started it they called it Bitcoin foundation to give it self-credits they might it doesn't matter if they go and say we're not officially in control of Bitcoin calling yourself Bitcoin foundation makes people believe that so no no so I'm in communication with some of the people on the Bitcoin cash side of it purely because they are more open to ideas and thoughts even if it's against what they think they still have a discussion maybe you've already said even in this chat you're against some of the ideas I've got because you're a manic marketing anarchist but we can still have a conversation an issue whatsoever a blockchain we wouldn't have a conversation we wouldn't even have a conversation and read it it's the different type of mindset group and it's got to the stage if you read the Reddit posts or the types of censorship that are going on in places it's got to the stage it's like a mental illness I know it's a cult the BTC people have created a cult for themselves Bitcoin cash is a little bit as well but the ones that are left in BTC are in that huge category of people that are utterly blind to what they're saying that is parroting them they've done that for years anyway but they don't even realise what damage they're doing what they've done to that or maybe they do if you do the conspiracy theorist and stuff like that they're going to be broken and not working anymore but the people that are doing it may think they're doing something that's beneficial they might not realise that they should be manipulating themselves and finding a path that's so destructive that's what I was saying earlier I've learned more about humanity in the last couple of years by being part of the Bitcoin community than I have it any other time because whether it's malice it is high levels of both or either one it takes a so I've got a saying and some of the people that I talk with there are some ideas that are so stupid only an academic could believe them and that has certainly been the case in the BTC community there are some ideas limiting it permanently at one megabyte that's not even within the realm of being reasonable it's not two orders of magnitude if you want to count the block size okay theoretically it is not within two orders of magnitude close to being reasonable and it takes a special mind I think to think otherwise to convince yourself and think that you're an expert and conclude confidently otherwise this is a thing I'll just do a little google for it now I feel it's called hunger I believe it's a tribute to malice which could be adequately explained by stupidity they might not be maliciously damaging they might just be stupid even when he introduced himself when he was brought into the blockchain and introduced himself in the community in 2013 or something he was actually just sorted again just a few days ago or a few weeks ago he was even saying then about how Bitcoin mining Bitcoin is effectively my invention my invention hash cash he calls it hash cash with inflation control yeah yeah on twitter for a while I just read his introduction introduced himself to the bitcoin community on bitcointalk.org and informed there as the first post and then it was saying that he was particularly saying they're using my hash cash for doing the mining it's actually my the thing is the thing is that reference was never supposed to be in there at all even though it's mentioned in the email which means it was in the text the white paper was never supposed to be as a reference in fact most of the references for the white paper are fake false but Craig since he's the one that wanted a white paper published and all white papers have references to make it look academic you had to put something down there but most of them are wrong one was that when he said he was going to put the hash cash one there I said you don't it's based on the prefer work it's not based on hash cash he's yeah yeah but you've talked about yeah okay I'll take that bit out of it or if you're going to put his the hash cash is a reference you go to the hash cash white paper look at his references for prefer work and add them above his reference so if anyone reads it they can see it's the prefer work that's important and it was also used in diminishes his credit credit yeah right but that wasn't done there's mention in there about time stamping there's about two or three references there's only about six or seven references or something two or three of them there's about time stamping alright they're not references at all because I never refer to it I came up with this idea of a chrono stamp server we don't need actually the time the actual specific time that all these other attempts or the electronic carriers try to do and to know what the actual time is you had to trust at least one a few of them in synchronization synchronize the time between them so the time is all correct a chronological order of this stuff it should work whether it's 200 AD or 1000 BC or in 500 years time it should still be the same stuff who cares about the time and the days what means it's one thing happening before the other chrono stamp and Craig had a huge huge problem trying to understand this idea and so he had to look up himself other time stamping ideas from other people and stuff and so he added those just trying to tell my explanation so he added those references in the white paper because his references time understand the white paper right there's how ignore the white references the white paper there's how bullshit they are at least two of the references are Craig's references that he looked up trying to understand what the hell he explained them right have you ever heard something like that before kind of some of my academic days where I'd write up a paper and then have to go through after the fact and figure out who else has said something similar so that I don't get pinged for not having references because I actually think I don't know what you think about this but I actually think it's kind of slow sometimes to try to build your knowledge based on reading other people's work it's like you got to get the ideas you got to get a clear conception of the problem that you're trying to solve and the concepts involved in trying to solve the problem but you don't have to master all of their failed attempts it's like I find it actually it's more efficient to try to just clean slate solve a problem in theory come up with your own concepts and then if somebody else has thought of something similar great if they haven't great I think it's actually quicker that way yeah well I'll cover two points when it comes to that one is the the use of the Merkle tree that was purposely done so that the paper will be more accepting in the crypto community I was actually designed was like a BSP type tree a binary space partition tree from my 3D programming days I've been able to cleft the data and divide it up again and again and break it down until it gets to where the concave geometry is and that's the leaf the way that when you're a 3D shooter going around you actually shoot out rays out towards the planes and if you're on this side of the plane you generate those that geometry if you're on the other side you can just cut it and just not even look at all that data very efficiently be able to traverse trees and get data in and out that was an original idea to use but to make it acceptable I had to use this Merkle tree the idea is to use a binary space partition but you had hashes from the concave data back up the branches all the way up to the root and then Craig came in and said oh that reminds me of something comes back and shows me this thing about a Merkle tree here's the idea of the hashes but not all this other stuff we can actually hook any data at all and not just transactions they're not just cash transactions transactions could be anything one I give you a digital image and you give me something else that's digital and no cash has exchanged but still a transaction to actually holding actual data inside the stuff thought we won't use that what we'll use but still had the hashes between each one up to the root hash I said no we won't use that we will have this Merkle one purely because it's well known in the crypto community and for this to be more accepted in the crypto community will use something that they're used to and Craig was actually against that he thought this space partition top tree thing I figured out was so much more superior that we should go with it anyway I said no no no one of the things we need here is for the crypto community to accept it or at least be able to at least some of them come on board alright and so there's a lot of that that's some so the BSP thing you're talking about I don't know anything about that this is something that you just it was like I'm just going to create a functioning system and then we'll step back and see if anybody has done anything like this that's kind of an original creation you're saying what most of is original creation and well with this here because I didn't make up binary space partitioning that comes from Wolfenstein O3D, you got quake, you got doom in software the BSP trees were existed beforehand but they used that in doom or quake one of them to divide up the geometry of the environment you're in alright and it became quite well known and so I thought well that's what I came to to try and try and you have a block of data and how to make it so that you can check it you just want to be able to check the header type thing and not check single data and once it's been checked you just want to confirm that and know the rest is correct or if any piece of data has changed you want to be able to easy do that or track it or be able to clip things off like leaves or for branch or whatever if you don't need that anymore I just figured that out because it needed to be figured out what data structure to use until the intense amount of effort to do that and then have Craig just turn around and say oh well the merkle trees exist I thought I knew about that I would have gone straight to the merkle tree but I would not have allowed me to figure out this awesome thing structure that was even better exactly and that's like you were saying before about the value of mental patterns even if they're wrong so your understanding of the problem and the solution by coming up with this BSP thing that even if it didn't work that's still going to build your understanding of the system the concepts involved potential resolutions the pros and cons between that and the merkle tree that's very valuable better and also it means that when I see a merkle tree my brain because you're based upon all experiences and hooks inside your head with the ideas and memories and experiences now that I've gone through that process whenever I see a merkle tree in that or think of it I've got all this other information that I can bring to it that others don't because they get taught merkle tree and that's it it's isolated from all the other knowledge yeah so yeah the other thing the point was that the Nick Sarbo's thing with big gold and the comparisons compared to what he's written about big gold and they were very similar to what Bitcoin is so it must have influenced in that which is not true at all now this caused a bit of a problem because Craig when he had told these people when they asked them the white paper or the draft copy was being released to a few people they came back and said big gold and since he wanted to fit into this community he accepted he said yes and then he came to me and said oh you've got these people saying it's based on big gold and I said I said look through our emails do we ever talk about big gold? I don't think so I said right everything every paper we saw we'd read it we'd rip every paragraph and every sentence apart put back together again we'd look through the references you'd try and communicate with the author we'd go through the references rip those two pieces put back together again you'd try and get those authors and then we'd go through their references and pull those ones and pull them apart and talk about them at any stage do we get the big gold white paper go through it rip it to pieces put back together go through the big gold references and get them and do you talk to try and communicate with at some stage to see if that big gold white paper was no none of that happened because we've never talked about big gold it was mentioned on Hal Finney's reputable reusable pref of works website and I went to try and go to the link and I suppose it's been thrown thrown for a while the link just goes to an unenumerated site started reading through it went through about a third of the documents listed there nothing about big gold tried searching his site nothing but where's his famous big gold the very first link on Nick's site says here's my link to my new stuff and I never clicked on it I thought I don't want this old stuff this big gold stuff this new stuff is bigger and so I never went there only after this conversation with Craig and him telling them oh yeah it's big gold I put it in I said where's the link to it site I said there's nothing saying big gold on Nick's Zabo's main site right and he goes and he talked to Dave and Dave it's the first link I said what the one that says my new stuff he goes yeah I said why would I click on this new stuff right clicked on it it's got a few blogs but it's just like one of them is on big gold summary of big gold I think it's a summary only goes for about a page and a half worth of text but that's not a white paper that's like a summary because it starts off saying oh years ago I posted something about big gold but that surely can't be just it because it's like someone saying it's been two minutes saying about an idea and that's it well where's the depth where's the details how is it going to work all you see in some blah blah blah there's something bullshit if you're from a game programming game programming and developers environment like game dev game dev.net and all the others using from 2000s you always had these guys that had ideas they wanted you to sign NDAs to tell you their idea and their idea is this game with the love mounts of this other game and that's my game and all I needed to is find a developer to actually build it and since it's my idea I get 95% and they build it and they'll get 5% of any like no the efforts and the execution not the idea the developer should get 95% and they'll say but it's my idea I said not idea other people's ideas you have no idea no concept of how it takes to develop something to actually put the details in and build it and get artists and stuff so that's effectively what I see Nick Zabri did he's just give him a few ideas that other people had talked about chuck them in there he's talking about property property legions or something like that some weird thing and that's it no tears of how you'd actually make it work as I was saying I want to make some boots you put them on and you have them walk vertically up a wall great how can you actually do that in reality but it's my idea and it came first and some of us invented some anti gravity boots a few years later and went up a wall so they must have got it from my my idea right no it actually annoys me how much standing he's gained in the community because some people if you were a reader if you read Nick Zabri's The Gold or at least the summary that's on his website go through his new stuff to look at his old stuff and and then compare it to the Bitcoin way paper and you think well that that could that what Nick says here if you change the words it could mean that in Bitcoin you change the words there and coming that in Bitcoin oh and maybe not but I think Nick might be Satoshi because I can almost match this up a bit is the same too this oh computers and bits and bytes and nibbles I'm not surprised by that at all what's really interesting to hear is again the community side of it that Craig you can see this in Craig's behavior he desperately wants to be accepted in the cool kids club in the community so that story again seems eminently plausible to me that he's going around and saying yeah yeah this is like your guys' work isn't it great when it's not well does your family know your story did they know who you what you've done kill your civilization and everything so it's the only one I know yeah my martial arts is a little bit only in the last year in that back you know all she knew is that there was some some months that I was really concerned I was going to the door with a kitchen knife behind my back looking through the peephole to see how it was wow I was prepared to this even though I'd end up jail or whatever like that my family had to probably go back to New Zealand I was prepared to open the door and stab it right into their throat for about three months I was really had concerns that because you thought that people assumed you were fantastically wealthy and we're going to try to extort you or something back in turn because of my memory the timelines all screwed up I can't remember much from late turn 11 on June 12 maybe June 13 so I think most of this happened late turn 11 but maybe later how we got wind of not only three leader agencies actively hunting us we already knew they were sniffing out the community but once Gavin went to visit them I thought they're not even doing it secretly they've gone to the current top head person of the project and said come and visit us and give us a one on one presentation this is Gavin you're saying yeah he couldn't say no if he said no but obviously his phone will be tapped and this will be that everything will be checked out over him I don't know if he realized at the time that his phone calls would have been tapped at that stage probably months beforehand and also there were people actively boasting in the community that they were actually funding private investigators to hunt us down wow thousands and thousands and thousands to actively hunt us down I thought well this will test my operational security of how paranoid and do you find out one of those is to be a real ask not everyone's nice millions of people will start dying because prefer work for Bitcoin consuming electricity in the middle of winter when people need power for their ultra heaters they have brownouts because Bitcoin in the middle of the night is taking the electricity and they start freezing to death in winter at nighttime and in the middle of summer they want to cool themselves down but there's brownouts because electricity is for Bitcoin mining and people start dying from heat stroke and that they're not kind of thinking of Satoshi as this lovely person after all they're probably going to think this Satoshi is an asshole that's killing people and should now be jailed for the murder of millions of people that's where we're heading so it's okay Craig carries on claiming he's Satoshi and I'll just say interesting fan fiction story because I've already planned on this evil villain stuff of the deaths of millions of people even the risk of even my mother if it happens in New Zealand that she needs the heater on in the middle of winter and it gets a brownout because of Bitcoin and she's perishing that's one timeline there are many universes going into the future that's one timeline that exists and I had to weigh that up and think well if that happens what's the benefit human's existence or that so something put out to the world there's going to be a lot of misery by the end what if to get to if your body's ill and you've got cancer in it you've got to cut it out but to cut that out you've got to wound yourself yeah I mean I'm not even I hear what you're saying I'm not even sure that the dystopia needs to play out I mean it's very possible that there are other brilliant entrepreneurs out there and coders out there who come up with technology that really do save us from a lot of those a lot of those problems and I think as the price if the price of electricity spikes imagine that's going to bring that many more entrepreneurs into the market trying to create cheaper and cheaper electricity something we can't even think of the way the way the system is it's going to happen anyway the more you go it's fantastic that if electricity comes cheap and abundant then we've got our our excess of electricity or energy civilization we can start having robots doing our work everywhere we don't have to go to a 8 hours a day dead end job pushing some numbers around which means absolutely nothing that job could not exist you could not exist and nothing changes to the universe what's the point in existing give it in the center for human beings to exist or so if it comes out cheap it's more expensive there'll be those that come out saying I've got a cheaper way of generating electricity or if it's if it's costing much we're using coal at the moment it's costing much now because it's no longer being subsidized by the by the nations then we can go well now solar is cheap enough and economical at the moment it's almost borderline but the other idea is this transfer of wealth from the fair care system into geeks and nerds not all of them but more a high percentage of geeks and nerds in the crypto world is so that even if it's something technological advanced is not economic in the fair currency world huge solar panels across the equator and all the rest even you've got planet and you put them in orbit you've got geostationary orbit so it's actually as it's rotating around it's fine you've actually got this way around have it just like as a moon our moon faces the sun right it's always facing the sun we can do the same thing with satellites so that if that's where the sun's coming from the satellites rotate this way the solar satellite the solar panels are always facing the sun 24 hours a day and then just have them being back down to us and since the solar power at the moment you open your eyes up in water in a swimming pool you open your eyes it's all blurry that's what the solar energy is at the moment to our solar panels on the ground it's got to go through our atmosphere right it dissipates energy is getting dissipated diffused it's our solar panels those solar panels are in orbit above our atmosphere the single one the amount of of energy transfer will be magnitude higher than having them on the ground here all right so yeah so we've got to do that type of thing so there are ways to increase it the idea is have more death and destruction first and have the target being this phantom person finally and and then have energy abundance we've got energy abundance we don't have to worry about the price of Bitcoin if electricity was unlimited well in an unlimited electricity top society we don't need Bitcoin anymore so we've got something far better we don't need it anymore one level of analysis which you're kind of saying that Bitcoin is simply a way to raise the price of electricity it's a means it's a means to an end a climate destruction within a single generation it's a means to an end the end will be you'll still value things differently if you've got to walk 200 meters down the road you'll value shoes more than bare feet if you've got to go a couple of kilometers away you'll value a push bike more than your shoes if you've got to go say 5-10 kilometers away you'll value a car more than your push bike so even if machines are building grabbing material out of the ground and refining it and manufacturing it's all machines the price that you pay for each item will be different because you value it differently so you'll still have shoes are cheaper than bicycles bicycles are cheaper than than cars but it's a whole prefer work type thing we need to get rid of it we don't need it anymore we've got unlimited electrical energy being generated and the idea is to do that with a single generation a lot of work needs to be done for that to happen a lot of work I think that's a natural and excellent place to end this session thanks for talking to you Steve thanks very much Phil so before we start again last time when we spoke preface about what your goal is so like we're in this weird circumstance where assuming you are another part of Satoshi which is the assumption that I'm making you're kind of, you've been hidden for a long time and now you're kind of coming you're kind of tiptoeing more into the light and I want to make sure I respect your privacy as much privacy as you want but have you clarified are you planning on being public or is this still going to be kind of a slow thing because that's going to determine kind of the questions I ask you how forward do you want to be well that's one of the difficult things at the moment is that like on my website the disclaimer or truth or proof of anything and that's strange enough that no third party has even verified anything I've said so far which restricts on how much I cannot do I've got some people in the community what made to come in and stand up against Satoshi and people in that which you cannot do unless you can verify your position in the past otherwise I'm just some random case the other issue is that from how it was being designed and built out at the time I was never especially at least initially come forward and always do things through surrogates at least while we're building up the second foundation which is basically the foundation to control the first foundation and only if things were okay we would put out actual real names forward but it really looked like that probably was never going to happen however in the last couple of years because of some certain actions from certain people that's changing to do what was originally planned without being more more public alright or at least public enough to stop other people doing what they're doing and so I go back into the background background manipulation type stuff again like you're saying which direction well it's actually better both it's very difficult to ask some of these questions because of circumstances so when you say you're kind of you know becoming more public to prevent some people from doing some things does that mean that you see what Craig is doing you're worried about let's say the future of bitcoin or you're worried about some nefarious business that's going on or maybe connections with groups that you think are dangerous or detrimental and so that's what you want to stop and so that's why you're coming out is because of that saying things like stop is a bit yeah the idea is this whole thing is based upon perceptions and manipulation guiding like Mr Filler said about being a trim tab you want to be able to tweak it here or put an article out there that'll guide people's thoughts and stuff and so it's not a matter of putting a stop on it it's like stopping a river, you don't stop a river the idea is to guide the banks to make a curve where you want it to go of course there are dams but there are issues but you don't need to take analogies so far things like let's start with Craig himself he gave us words on certain actions or non-actions which is effectively broken of what he's done and I'm not really the type of person that you want to break your word on it's probably the Scottish blood type thing I'm not lying for another 100 years or whatever I'll still go right, you gave your word right? and I'll just say you can back out of it so that part of the issue which will need to be addressed at some stage but then he's leveraging that for this new client with N-Chain and Queen Geek and everything else saying he's not Satoshi but it's my bit Queen and this is the way I want it to go if you don't well I'm going to talk to I wasn't going to have N-Chain and Queen Geek talk to the other miners and to use their client but we don't want control, we don't want to centralise and miners are the main thing and developers are rubbish but not our developers they want our developers code that will be forking off of Bitco and ABC but their stuff's rubbish even though we're forking off that and adjusting it so the whole narrative from those guys is concerning so when you're looking at it I know we talked before about the big picture vision is this is planetary civilisation money essentially, this is one piece of the puzzle and a much, much bigger picture progression of humans is that the thing that you would like to preserve or you would like to try to preserve is actually that vision or is it like the Craig version is maybe seeing it in a much smaller perspective You understand what I like people crap all over Craig all the time like I did a little bit just before however, he's got some attributes that I haven't seen in other people it's great at absorbing a lot of knowledge not necessarily the understanding of it but I read about it between Origins and Story about how he'd read a white paper and then he'd try to contact the author or the authors of that white paper to see if there's been an update because some of these white papers are like 10 years old, 20 years old and surely they wouldn't just stop they would have researched more he'd try to contact the authors to see new developments then you go through the references and read those references to the authors of these new updates so he was always trying to I've never seen it before usually people read a white paper and they think that's it nothing else, they didn't even contact the authors unless they just bump into them somehow in some industry meeting and just take that as facts even though it might be 20 years old 30 years old, 40 years old and I'm talking about people that are high up in the tech world not necessarily publicly but at least I'm very knowledgeable Craig would actually do this extra digging which is great, there's great as a gopher a gopher, this gopher that because he'll dig down and grab the real information and the up-to-date information that you wouldn't be able to get anywhere else so as a like an errand boy or a gopher type thing it was brilliant which is what it effectively was the invention phase, I was trying to figure this stuff out in mid-2008 as time progressed though the idea was to task him with building up the network once it was running while I was supposed to work on the background type stuff but yeah, so people knocking a lot but he has got some strong attributes that no one else has got so would you say that part of his role was any of it technical and or was it intellectual in the sense that I know he's fetching a lot of information and trying to present it, maybe trying to understand it but when you were going back and forth was this like hey let me bounce this idea off this person I really respect who grasps the concepts and then that'll give me some feedback the way I really end up working is for operational security the idea is to have a shield between myself and everyone else which is what Craig and Dave were so there was an Anastasi team which is us three and then there was the Anastasi team which was anyone that Craig got in contact with to try and answer my questions alright I don't know how many there might be half an hour there might have been 20, I don't know I want to make sure I didn't know who he was communicating with just so that at that time in the government there's a cabinet and then information from the cabinet meeting gets leaked out and no one knows who leaked it so meeting just two people I was in contact with means if any information leaked out about me I knew which two would have done it right and so I didn't want to know who was who else was involved or anything else or what was communicated so I'd bounce ideas off of them and some ideas and go back and forth quite often had to dig further from it and then try and contact someone and ask my questions to those people when back and that was quite intense for weeks and weeks on end but when it comes to technical expertise one of the examples I've given out to a few people which is also in that the origin story was about private public keys about signing and he was totally confused with the idea of the public key was the key that the public saw and had access to and the private key was the secret key you keep to yourself he just could not get his head around it and that's like almost fundamental even though there was no technical computing or crypto expertise you describe about what the word private means what public means in a way he could not understand that he could spell off about the algorithms and stuff P, K and whatever else he could throw the algorithms around and stuff and swap them around and wouldn't be able to understand what the hell he's on about but because he couldn't even understand the basics of the private key is the one you keep to yourself you made me question is the math right in the first place alright yeah, so again he had a lot of knowledge but some of his understanding is not quite there this is what's concerned to me about any client all this is Toshi's vision they're pushing forward it's because he never understood Toshi's vision in the first place so we're in this really weird circumstance 3 years he was in the inner circle getting the actual raw information and he still did not understand it when that lock I'm starting to rank now that one megabyte maximum block cap was put in mid-2010 he had two or three people like Harlan Norris wanting to be put in just in case he came to me about it and I said I gave him all the reasons why it should not be there, if anything there would always be a buffer the average amount of transactions for say fortnight 216 blocks and there would be a buffer above it, so there's spam and if it hits against the upper buffer then the fees will rise it will transfer the wealth of the fees from the spammer to the miners until the spammer's got no more money transfer of wealth from an arsehole to people that are useful in the network and then also undergone so it's supposed to increase and increase and the other I think you've told people about this about a couple of years ago and they should put out some bits that have actually been created about like bit 100 and a few others that are pretty much exactly what was supposed to happen in the first place Yeah, they call them the adjustable block size cap Exactly, there's supposed to be a buffer there's ways to do it, almost like a Venn diagram how you've got two circles in the section when one starts going against the buffer that's the way when it's in that middle zone it's flexible only when it's past then it's in the next level that's the level, so it's bump now it's two megabytes and say it was decreased and it goes into again that Venn diagram zone and while it's in there it's still at the two megabytes but only when it goes to the threshold bang now it's down to one so this idea that merchants won't be able to adapt to it and all this it's not an issue at all it was always meant to be like that, I told him all this but he was he followed what Harlan and the others was saying because if he didn't do that they had, in his mind had more standing than in the Satoshi handle so if there was a fork in the repo at that stage that Harlan's idea of having this locked kept size and all of a sudden he won't have any network and and took so long to build it up to that stage he was always afraid that if he makes a change or doesn't make a change if he doesn't make a change is that the community said they wanted or he made a change that I wanted but the community hadn't said they wanted that all of a sudden he'd lose control of the Bitcoin network and be forked off it and that's basically why I forked off and went on to other things because he stopped implementing what needed to be put in there so I have a couple questions I told him it was going to screw everything up and that's exactly what happened so I have two follow up questions on that one I guess is an observation and then a follow up question the observation is this is such a weird circumstance it's so weird because you've got so let's say there's three main parts to the Satoshi group the one who is public who has tried to be public is this mixture of high level of skill in particular areas in research areas or at least the fetching of information if not conceptually understanding it but he I've asked a couple of times whether or not he's technically competent and I'm asking for a specific reason when I consume his content I'm not a technical guy I'm a conceptual guy when I consume his writing I listen to it most of it I would say two thirds of it is bad is self evidently bad and it might be that maybe he's just a bad communicator and he actually understands what's going on but the way it comes across and I know a lot of people feel this way like in the Bitcoin Cash community is that the guy actually fundamentally understands and even if he does the mathematics stuff if you're not a mathematics guy I'm not a mathematics guy it might even be that he's doing the same with the mathematics that he manipulates the symbols but he doesn't really understand what he's talking about and the only way you can really understand whether or not he knows what he's talking about is if you understand the material yourself which neither of us do so it's this bizarre circumstance where somebody might actually be part of the fundamental group and yet not really grasp the basics very fair someone just mentioned the other day that even the people that built the Taj Mahal had had some that cleaned the toilets and I thought well that's a bit low but I thought that not everyone on the team is necessarily doing the actual thinking or the understanding like the errand boy or the gopher type person it's got great research skills to get the information but it's the understanding that's problematic you're always going to go by the thought of it's not dumbing down things down but to make it as simple as possible for the general public to understand that's why the Bitcoin White Paper was written in that way you might notice it's not written like any other type of white paper crypto or academic or otherwise it's written like a conversation between two people trying to explain something in as concise way possible there was emails from me to him they said there's long emails and if you communicate I don't know if he still does this but what he used to do is he would scan things quickly so you might say he's reading all these books but usually he'd only read like speed reading or skipping them simple way through he's absorbed some of the information not all of it so he can pull back information and quote this and quote that but since he hasn't actually read it in detail in depth he hasn't got the understanding but yeah he was doing this time and time again and um yeah okay so that is it's so funny too that kind of the BCH community could be correct here that both Craig is part of Satoshi and somehow doesn't grasp the fundamentals which is so it's so bizarre but that to me from the outside not having all this inside information that is the only story I've heard so far of course plus listening to and reading your article and talking with you that actually makes complete sense because there are some little bits of information that Craig drops that are like oh wow that's pretty deep that's pretty profound that seems like he has inside knowledge and then you know he his writing is you can't read it and it's got a bunch of typos everywhere and at the same time again it's like you've got to try and um like the white paper it's written so that someone in a high school level will be able to grab it and understand it and I thought of um if if you ever read I don't know if you're an academic yourself if you ever read any of these academic papers or white papers um quite often every two or three sentences you've got to reach for a dictionary or reach for a thesaurus and then for a dictionary to understand what they're saying and if you've got to reach for that six times in one paragraph they're not communicating the message the whole point of communication is you've got something inside your skull you want to put it inside other people to many people's skulls at the same time whether the academic level or not you've got to get that message across and if people are having to grab for a dictionary every few sentences you are the one that's finding to communicate so the idea is it's not thumbing it down at all it's using better vocabulary and grammar so that's why the white paper is like that this is literally why I was so persuaded by your story when I read it because there are I don't know what you think about this I'd like to hear your thoughts I think it's actually a sign of deep deep understanding when you have the ability to communicate in a way that a high school person can understand and if your only way of communicating is clunky and it requires unnecessarily large words I think it's actually reflective of not really understanding what you're talking about so when you say there's the academic level that's got all this jargon in it I think in reality the academic level actually it's not clear because if it was clear they wouldn't have to use that clunky terminology oh yeah but there's also the flip side of this because it's not black and white it's all shades of grey and on scaling and the other side of that there's something that's technical sometimes you do actually need a base level of knowledge to be able to understand some of this there was always the risk of the white paper there's about four words that we'll actually have to look up to understand it but that's it but most people you've got to say it's maths what we just said before you've got to become a mathematician to understand the maths like the hash cash oh we had them back you read that I'd read the first few lines of it and then I was communicating with Dave saying hey this thing's grey Dave's the one that showed me about it you can actually manipulate the adjust the amount of bits in front to actually make it harder and make it easier and then just the next paragraph down I read it and she talked about changing the targeting bits the difficulty oh that's great again and then he went on to the maths and I started glazing over bullshit maths does it work or not that's what I care about doesn't matter what the squiggles mean doesn't work right it was based on his references for my other stuff but he didn't really do anything with it just put a name on it but it was never usable anyway because the way the targeting worked and the previous types of preferred work was that either double and difficulty or half in difficulty alright so big chomp chomp chomp chomp you can't use that ever to say if that was what was put in use in big coin and we still use say 216 blocks in 10 minutes it will either stay the same rate half or double you'll see how straight it moved up over the years imagine it going double and then it gets really bad in the seasons and people switch off the measures at half and then half and then double that's the hash rate that's just bonkers the only way to make it usable is to make it so that you could actually increase it by a percentage not many people talk about that part but without that part preferred work would not be usable at all so I was thinking this thing that's broken people say all these things existed before big coin no they didn't this piece that was broken existed this other piece that was broken didn't work and it was fixed and then put together into a system what more difficult than people thought it was when you said that it made me think not to go on a tangent here with regards to the maths and the meaning of the symbols I don't know how much background knowledge you have about the history of mathematics but I literally just released a video on my youtube channel about the history of mathematics and some of the developments it used to be that mathematics cared about truth mathematicians cared about the truth and careful reasoning about true premises but now it's turned in since the last century it's like formalism is this methodology where it doesn't even matter what your symbols mean they have explicitly stripped a meaning out of mathematics what matters is that you have your symbols by which you manipulate the symbols and that your manipulation of those symbols is logically valid regardless of it, literally regardless if it's connected to reality at all that's what a huge part of modern mathematics is built on so it's funny when you say that you saw the math and your eyes glossed over I thought yeah well maybe there's enough maybe because there's nothing there yeah yeah right it's not that I can't do maths I'm not a mathematician type minded person right in my win32 assembly days in early 2000s we had to do a lot of matrices 4x4 calculations for the 3D programming and stuff so I learnt how to do all that stuff on pieces of paper and all the rest just so that I can actually make functions on it so that if you make your first person a person moving around and how they move around like rotation and translation compared to driving a car and being able to offset where the wheels are so that in a wheel actually tunes less than the outer wheel type thing right all the way to the aircraft so the rotation needed in a car or a person that's in from but rotation in aircraft you're in the picture that compared to a spacecraft so work out all the best for it I worked it out meaning me I got it together I made the functions I didn't have to know the maths anymore I just had to know which function to grab call and how it went to apply it the maths is like that for everything even there's crypto stuff you don't have to know crypto to muck around in this industry the base functions you might need to know crypto to make the base functions after that you don't need to know that you just have to know which function to grab and when to apply it forget everything else you don't have to recall all this maths right and there's a big difference too even in the realm of mathematics between applied mathematics cryptography is maybe one of the best examples and theoretical are what they call pure mathematics which is explicitly devoid of its connection to reality there's a funny quote by Bertrand Russell where he says roughly mathematics can be defined as the area of study in which we never know what we're talking about we don't know we don't know what we're talking about nor whether or not what we're saying is true and that's like a tongue-in-cheek quip because at that point when he was writing the state of mathematics has said well math isn't about anything it's not actually about the world or reality and then the second part is a reference to girdle's incompleteness theorems we never know what we're saying is true girdle's incompleteness theorems are this like weird outgrowth of formalist mathematics he said it tongue-in-cheek but I think it's actually quite revealing of the state of some pure mathematics that actually doesn't get at anything or isn't applicable to the real world at all what I'd put onto that is I've mentioned somewhere asked before about which may be also something like I've written down there sorry when I was doing avionics technician course in 88 and 92 in New Zealand we went to this avionics type avionics and electronics and we were talking about say transformers the pure math type part of it will be you have a perfect transformer so you've got ductions and you've got current and voltage and what's coming out but that's not practical in the real world and you're making up a real circuit board you want your transformer to act as a real transformer and it's got different impedances it's got inductance in it you've got a resistor there and you've got capacitance and a risk and so what you do you start with the perfect transformer and then you start adding in reality like the couple Y's got resistance and then since it's it's a loop it turns inductance so the current is 90 degrees out from voltage and you slowly add these things up until you've got a little circuit that represents the transformer it's just a real attribute of it and you can plug it into your circuitry and so all the currents of voltage are correct you cannot use a perfect transformer to build anything but it is a basis to actually build something that's practical but I prefer the applied side of it than just the up here right and this there's a part of your article on bitcoin origins which I love which is when you're talking about this as it applies to the Byzantine generalist problem where okay you've got a perfect problem that can't be solved oh it's mathematically proven that you can't solve the Byzantine generalist problem and so these academic types that I don't think have deep understanding or care necessary about the world they go oh well there's no reason to try to solve the Byzantine generalist problem because it's mathematically impossible to solve preposterous not in the real world no exactly exactly where I use that transformer reference and then you add an okay right let's say we don't want a perfect solution but we want a practical solution what would that look like and you go well it means this happens and this happens this has got to happen and that's when I figure out that but what really is you look at everyone else's solution beforehand where they actually use a centralized server or servers for checking whether this bit was flipped or not things like that I think well you don't need to be so precise because for one thing we're not having a server for the time but yeah it ends up being it's just a decision making machine because what do you really want to do all the generals want to know what is the decision the decision is to keep laying siege or to attack or to retreat what is the decision and so you need another thing that would be able to record the decision made by everyone and that everyone knows that everyone knows everyone's decision that type of thing and the only way that to happen is that everyone needs to have the same database same data and so you slowly build up these actual elements and it just fell into place as soon as you had the actual thinking process of how to go about solving it solving it was actually the easy part well exactly the difficult part the difficult part of actually making it work in the real world was the incentivization system which was not that solution so you have a technical solution but to make it practical you need an incentivization system which is not even in the white paper because it was developed after the white paper just like the scripting system was developed after the white paper they never even been December two questions I guess the one was kind of a tangent about math the other question is you mentioned that part of the reason that you left when you did is because Craig was stuck on this one megabyte block size he didn't understand and he didn't want to change the code and you said you left you forked off working on other projects I know from the forums or whatever one of those was name coin what were the other projects if any that you were working on right after you left bitcoin well the way it really worked is it's not like walking into a takeaway place wanting to order something someone says you can't and you go oh and you turn around and walk out it's not instant like this I decided to leave about early 2010 early 2010 we've got a new bitcoin talk message board in December not the new logo in January, February 2010 so I get a few other people into like John Matonis to mention bitcoin so you said you got that to happen no no well we did because I'm going through surrogates have you spoken with John Matonis at all I don't know my email account was the GMX account so if his communications was via the GMX account it would have been me most of the external communication went through the other so that would have been through the VCML account so if any IPs like the other ones that would be targeted you'll always need to have the full guy alright I don't know if I mentioned before it's like when you go swimming I tell my boy you don't have to swim faster than Australia you don't have to swim faster than the sharks you just have to make sure there's a person between you and the sharks and I'm usually telling them when we're actually in the water above our heads there's people around me I'm speaking a loud voice they can actually hear me saying this these people in front of you and they are turning around and getting a bit concerned and I'm saying sharks get them first alright so the same thing if you're doing something that that's in governments or agencies or companies not really like you doing once they figure out what you're doing it's better they actually have other people that will have their IPs leaked before yours so most of the stuff that goes through them I don't know if I communicate with John directly or not strange enough this is you're asking a question and I'm just not answering it I'm going sideways the November release it had the white paper it had the viste mail account on it cause Greg released it we've done the draft it sent it out to a few people and then said here's the link why didn't you show me the draft I didn't know what was in it alright I sent him stuff I was assuming he was putting other stuff in it but didn't and people were communicating via the viste mail account that's what was used in the mailing lists that was on the white paper because I always had 12 hour shifts 4 days on 4 days off back and forth communications someone's asking the question to the viste mail account and then using our internal account Greg will send the question to me I'll think about it send it back to him to send it back to this guy and this was happening rapidly I've got to go to work see you later and I'm not back online for another 13 hours so here's Greg answering this guy the guy's sent another question and Greg's asking me to answer it I'm not answering I'm off the word and so it happened over a few days or like a few weeks and he got so frustrated of what does he say when all of a sudden there's no answer coming through and I say just tell him you're off to work that's what I'd do so in about the third week of November so I wound up about this that there was an update to the white paper just a few spelling mistakes or grammar changes but also the most important one is the email address was changed alright so the email was changed to my one the GMX one just so that these questions would come directly to me alright and we'd have these communications back and forth back and forth so some of these people that were having communications with Satoshi back in November December they should actually especially the ones that were having these fast conversations that were suddenly cut off they should have a record of that Craig's never going to mention it or even the reason why it was changed or anything but these guys would actually have a physical record of these emails back and forth conversations stopped didn't restart for 13-14 hours every few days so back to the question what was the question again oh the question was let's see if I answered this time the question was I'm not dodging it like Craig does no no I know I was telling my wife Julia about the conversation we had last time and I was saying well the nature of it was you ask a question and then there's a very long long aside kind of half answering the question but then it always comes back around that's an important part back in I was got a trip to the Satoshi Round Table in February at the beginning of the year 2018 and in one of the nights we had a few people come around for this meal over and I was just drinking tequila I might have had tequila when I was in the Air Force around 1990 I used to get bottle caps to put tequila in and stuff it in you get instantly drunk in seconds you have to drink beer for half an hour but anyway beginning of this year in Mexico here are proper tequilas with Mexican tequila and all the rest delicious I had quite a few of those so I was answering questions like you are they were asking me questions like you are I was answering them I was getting more and more slosh up until what midnight or one o'clock in the morning so I was just drinking away answering them about a month or so later when Craig was in these meetings and getting up and people asked him direct questions like what's the whole point of why is it being halved every four years with a million maximum release of coin and he completely dodged the questions every time I was answering your questions and I was all for my face there is a big difference between me and Craig he might be able to recall the stuff as I said before if I don't do it on a regular basis my brain goes just lock that away you are not going to get it back again but at least the stuff that does come back is not a problem anyway that's the question so the question was what projects were you working on I know you said there wasn't an a la carte list but what were you researching what were the world problems you thought how can I solve this next well not usually world problems you have to remember that it wasn't a case of done be done through a lifetime but right now I'm going to do this thing and then going to other things I was already I'm to the top of the person that would go by and I thought why do I work for someone else's be an employee for someone else for all these years doing something that's not going to be important at all when I can do it myself type thing entrepreneurs I go to bookstores and get the entrepreneurial books and get by five at a time the top sellers for the month read them through the month at the end of the month go back to the bookstore grab the next shelf we'll get say four or five books grab them and read them again and again and most of the stuff is like motivational gunk like horoscopes and stuff right generic just motivational stuff that only works while you're reading it once you put it down it's not so good and every now and then I take a snippet just one or two phrases that are good the rich dad poor dad books they're good for telling you that the idea is to work there what you've got to do is say how can I or where can I or why can't I and that engages your brain you might not get the solution but at least your brain is being engaged rather than sitting idle and another book talks about leveraging other people's time and expertise even though you could learn this stuff and do it yourself if you want to scale you've got to be able to offload delegate to others even though they're not going to do it as good as well as you would be able to do it hence a lot of the stuff that's broken in bitcoin was because I was finding those instructions I was leveraging other people I was I tried to do it I thought how can I leverage leverage to Dave and Craig and then have them leverage other people and all of a sudden I'm doing the work of a hundred people and I'll delegate off but it means that the work itself is rubbish the client code is garbage the interface is nuts I show someone a few months ago the type of interface I was making in the early 2000s when I was doing Win32 assembly I was making interfaces you know your scanning of apps that you see with Winamp and the scanning of it to make it nice funny shapes and stuff like that that's what I was practicing techniques of how to do that in the Win32 assembly community and that's the interface I wanted to bring to the Bitcoin client something that's looks it's called skew skewomorphic so that a button looks like a button and a label looks like a label and it actually looks like the texture of leather or it looks like the texture of something else to make it a normal business it's used to look at the current mechanical items can look at the an app and go ah that looks like that switch I know it's a switch I can switch it right it looks like a label that I see a label over there so that looks like a label I know it's a label to read I shouldn't be trying to tap that or change it right that's how to onboard millions of people that are not technically capable so you know a lot of I was looking at entrepreneurial books one of the things I was doing is in February 2008 so just a few weeks before I went to Dave in the ISE channel I was reading neuro-lyndicrystic programming and then the Myers-Briggs stuff and reading all this stuff learning it and trying to apply and trying to get some real feedback of how it would work or not or elements of it um everything's like in 2010 right so the bitcoin thing was still going but I was delicate others to do this stuff I was looking into something called a magic jack this is something in the US you plug into your computer you plug a phone jack into this little dongle that's on your computer you're basically making phone calls through the internet like the skype right and so I was looking at doing that and picking up a website and multi-level marketing system to encourage people to buy a whole bunch to have people underneath them and all that other type of stuff right the thing is ways to actually control and manipulate people to come on board and spread it but it had to be done in an economic sense now are you seeing like coupling magic jack with bitcoin is that the idea? no no no what it was for a magic jack at that time was that you could only sell like locally or all yourself through yourself but I had to set up a system almost like M-Way where you become your own little business and buy a bit of product and sell it and get you one if you and do it that way but do it in such a way so that it's bent the contract a little bit to be able to allow me to scale it across the continent but keep within the contract rules but I was looking into that it never succeeded in the end but that's one of the things another one was electric bikes at least assistant electric power kits so you swap your front wheel of your bicycle for this one it's got a big motor in it and you've got batteries three little batteries about this size in a back on a holder at the back of the bike there and you've got a throttle so when you handle grab grippers end up being a throttle and you're supposed to be pedal and this will give you power assistance I was getting some of those things that are important for a few people or trying to some of the 200 watt motors which were legal in Australia there was also 500 watt ones which weren't legal in Australia I got two of those in and used them to get to work alright a 50 minute car ride to work and one of the roads is a 70K an hour long road and this thing the 500 watt motor can get you up to 50Ks an hour alright and I've got a large fella so an average weighted person even faster so I own a security job so I have security uniform airport security with my backpack that had my laptop on the rest 200 dollar mountain bike with this 500 watt motor going at 50Ks an hour and you have all these lycra wearing cyclists with 5000 dollar bikes 10,000 dollar bikes they're all going flat out here I am just on it I had a pretend pedal I had a pretend pedal with them as I was passing them all the cars they were only going past me at 20Ks an hour going what the hell it's been on the lights obviously sweat pouring down me but it wasn't from exertion it's from fear because I was trying to hold on the whole time but yeah it's like that it's a electric bike that type of thing these are the type of jobs one was a website my father was involved in disability care type products over in the UK they wanted me to build up a New Zealand site so the mobility things like a potato pillow that handles nice and big and round type things so it doesn't hurt the palm of your hand or the extension pincher grip so you can grab a can that's above in the all those other things so I was working on the website side of it and I made things like product scrapers so the code to go through his entire website and scrap all the data off it and then store it in my own database and then be able to present it and build all this type of stuff up but due to things like well they're supposed to have got one of those half shipping containers of product and they never got around to doing that so I built all this website all the tech and not going to be used so this is the type of stuff I was doing over and over and over again this was after bitcoin or before bitcoin well before, during and after bitcoin was there doing that I delegated it to other people so once the machine started running in January 2009 Craig was delegated to build up the network so we could actually have real-world data of how much time it takes to get data to transmit between computers around the world and that's it and stuff you just have to build it up and every couple of weeks I keep saying well I've built it up, how many machines have you I've got this site and you haven't put in a message there but a message in this place I used to get really upset that I was stalking him online to check out whether he was actually doing this job or not but your proof of not actually sending is that I should be stalking you and checking up on you some people need to be micro-managed that's Craig other people alpha class type people you'd say I want that job done you figure out how to do it they will figure out how to do it Craig needs to be told what to do he's like a B class type employee you don't want to put him in charge of any damn thing because you have micro-managed him you say I want that done because he can't figure out how to get it done so the contrast between projects here is just gigantic you've got one where it's like you've created a technology that could unify the planet around a certain monetary system for a thousand years and then the others you're dealing with you know the little grabby things for people that have disabilities and scooters that seems like the mythological conception of Satoshi is that he went from working on this cosmic project to another cosmic project that we're going to find out about five years was it just like this is one project I'm working on among many and hey it's cool put it the other way around then what was Satoshi working on before Bitcoin in that case surely something mammoth and fantastic as well what was that so the myth actually breaks down if you analyze it at all this is okay look this way I was involved in the Win32 assembly community it started up in about 1998 1997 DOS is dead but Kant is assembly dead on Windows 95 and they forget how to make calls to the DLLs in libraries in Windows 95 from an assembly language program I got involved in 1999 come over to Australia here in 2000 and by 2001 that's when I was a moderator of the game and graphics forum of the message board because I translated DirectX 8 and DirectX 8.1 com files into their assembly equivalent so everyone now can use DirectX 8 and DirectX 8.1 from assembly language and that works based on others that have done got DirectX 7 and 6 working a little bit I just expanded it quite a substantial amount but without their work I wouldn't have been able to do it at all and so yeah I come from that area of of trying to build the stuff which doesn't exist before but there was no real huge project beforehand alright not at all it's a case of try a little thing try a little thing try a little thing you gotta remember I was an employee working 12 hours shifts 2 days night shift 2 days night shift on 4 days off which is great time for thinking in that but it doesn't allow you to get out and get a well paid job this is like minimum wage type just above minimum wage it wasn't great you're not going to own a house out of it you're not going to go anywhere you're not going to have holidays with your family at all didn't bring that type of income in and so to try and break out of that you're always trying to start your own little job can I make money doing this can I make money doing that can I make money doing this can I make money doing that and this project came along and when the assembly community since it's assembly right and this is the main point I was started to tell you about is that this is where all the viruses and malicious software comes from these are the people that do it you got the hackers and the crackers and the crackers are the ones that here's a popular game they go through with it with a hex editor and find out where the security is and break it there and then endow it from my website for that game and you got many assembly communities like that but our one we wanted to keep as white as possible actually greater white all these other assembly sites were like greater to dark and every now and then these other websites would be closed down because they're doing dark projects malicious software hacking government sites company sites stealing passwords and selling them and stealing software and selling it and we as moderators we try and stopping on people that come from these sites keep trying to do the stuff that the reason why their site was shut down was because they were behaving this way saying this is how you crack this process this is how you do this and we stopped it and so I wanted from my main handle that I used so that if in the future in 10, 20 years time people were searching for me and they found all this information because it's the internet hanging around some of it I didn't want them to find that I was involved in this crack I was involved in this hack whatever the scrawny handle did was always greater white I build a reputation around that so that someone will ask a question how to do something in the Windows 32 platform I'll wait a day to see if there's any answer there's no answer I'll go around do some research figure out how to do it see how to use rich lists and post a little proggy an example program showing how to do it and I do it that again and again and when I do that I'll learn a lot more and also my reputation anyone searching for this handle back then it's hardly anything appearing now would see all this white to grey type level I even talked about hacking processes when there was a need to it right, most of the time things would shut down so you go up towards Bitcoin alright or solve these simple electronic cash problems in early 2008 before Bitcoin actually existed right from the very start I knew this was going to be a black project basically my first main black project I've helped other people in the past on black projects for the user interface part of it which is a white level part of that and when they had the little scroll saying thanks to this person I made sure they took my name out of there but it was only the UI part that I helped them with in fact that little scrolling little floating thing is what I helped them with in some places but I didn't actually do any dark level stuff I do privately for practicing and stuff and since I knew this was going to be a black project anyway because one it's mucking around with electronic cash or money and every nation in the world has got policies against any citizens any citizens or anyone mucking around with their currency and there's also treason laws in every nation that you cannot do something whichever country you're a citizen of I'm not a citizen of Australia but I'm a citizen of a country and I've risen over here you cannot do something that's detrimental to the country itself the nation itself, it's treason and some nations that don't have capital laws they still have capital laws if you commit treason, oddly enough some of them and so since this is going to be so black that you had these two main things we don't know the answers to them yet but at that time we thought well we are going to be mucking around with money in that nation and as well as do something detrimental to that nation but we're not just doing it to the nation we're residing, we're doing it to every single nation on the planet so that level of risk is like really, really, really high so the idea is to go even blacker when it comes to it my scrawny handle was already had a good reputation that's the one that Dave and I communicated with initially I didn't want that painted whatsoever and so that's when I told Dave to tell his mate to create email accounts for us so will you communicate via those email accounts so there's actually a great line Dave is like my secret keeper he knew a lot of stuff Craig did not and, oddly enough, Craig instantly, even though he was told that I don't know anything about crypto at that stage I've dabbled in it years ago I didn't know much about it I didn't relearn it or again or from scratch he was willing to straight away create an account and we communicate with that one so Craig doesn't know me as Phil or Stronti at all Dave did and since I only have seconds to actually give him what he was named using the email account I think I would either use my middle name which is James or derivative like a Jamie so it's quite likely he knows me as Jamie so all this stuff online that Craig putting me down on abuse and insults maybe because he actually thinks I am a random nap case that's the other thing I wanted to ask you I'll keep going I'll ask about it later I've let him know in a few times though something that only we knew about so that it should have rung a bell instantly in his head so I'm still up and on does he think I'm just some sort of weird nutcase or does he know it's actually me but it's hard to tell sometimes because some of the things I've let him know about only we knew you might be giving him too much credit I mean not to be I don't mean that in like a mean way but it might be that the dude's got a lot of stimulus right now he's got some scheming going on he's got a lot of people he's talking with around a person name doesn't register therefore I'm not going to really listen to what they have to say I don't know what you communicated with them but I'm just thinking maybe that's maybe that's a legitimate possibility no no no because of how we ended up cutting communication you know and basically through like PTSD my brain actually locked all those memories away to the extent that I'd forgotten about I was going to meet up Sydney in early 2016 in Sydney trying to meet up a blockchain meet up stuff that looks interesting technology and then the Bitcoin logo come up and I think I remember something about that I can't quite remember right? this is nuts this is early 2016 but that's why the big book origins stories were written and how it was expanded and I sent the links off to Google so it would actually archive it the idea is so that in the future you'll ever see someone that shut down all these memories and then slowly had to come back this is how they came back it would be useful as an analysis time thing because to the extent that you would have seen the Bitcoin the orange Bitcoin logo which was BitBoy published it but it wasn't his design so as far as the whole world's concerned that's BitBoy's design and his logo and he's published it and published it he tested the instructions and published them but it wasn't his design so it wasn't based upon the 2010 design it was 2010 design version 2 February 2010 version 2 but if everyone can find BitBoy if he's got access to those emails I'll be very interested to see how I convinced him to do that as far as I'm concerned if it's just some random person talking to him I must have convinced him somehow who I actually was for him to do this and not say anything I may have contacted him via the GMX account if that's the case if someone could find out who he is contact him and that is how he's convinced well that's like verified my story quite substantially really at least I convinced him some other way who knows but so I was doing all these other jobs BitBoy in itself it's going to be a dark project so that's going to be different from anything else I was doing everything else was can I do this once they did that system doesn't work at all trying to find a type of system that would actually work in scale and all the rest but when it comes to this electronic cash problem that was different that wasn't partly how can you make money if you actually make your own tokens and they gain value obviously you made money you got rich quick schemes the idea is once you got the system working if you can scale it quickly you're rich quickly if you scale it slowly you're rich slowly and if you go slowly it's got time for a competitor to come in and take over and do it better or cheaper faster so whatever you want to do you want to scale quickly and this Bitcoin thing it was obviously it was not going to be a rich quick scheme at all it's got a lot of elements on it purely because the other elements that I've been studying for years and trying out in real life little attempts and stuff but it was never going to scale quickly but I've gotten in the Bitcoin origin story about how I started trying to help out Craig because Craig had been trying to make an electronic cash and it failed after I've studied it for about a month and a half I've learnt about cryptography and the systems and compared to his one it's never going to be solved without being if you used reliance upon at least one server it's not going to work if you distribute it against six servers it's not going to work it's got to be not reliant on any actual physical machine that's why prefer work prefer work is better than prefer steak and other systems because those other systems you already know those machines in advance prefer work you don't know which machine is going to roll the metric dice we've been through all those systems different ways that we've talked about in all these other attempts and each time it goes back well you know the machine in advance you can go and tap on the door and say right for the next six days whatever traces I'm going through I want this one to go through if it's just prefer work which is basically everyone rolling dice random dice again and again everyone you don't know which machine is going to get it you can't go up in advance and compromise them that's why prefer work is so much better than any of these other systems but um yeah so after it failed I thought well I was going to counter what other little things I was looking into I thought and I reminisced about why then I stopped doing the Win32 assembly stuff but I went back looking at the stuff I had done over the years, electronic stuff as well as the computer stuff and seeing I've been able to figure out some pretty difficult problems so maybe if you look in the history in the future say 50 years and there's a book there saying oh this wasn't meant to do this was created and these are the people that were involved and what I was doing is on the sidelines thinking are these the people that are going to create this thing are these the people and I was thinking about I think well what if that book actually had my name on it instead of waiting to see someone else why not I give it a go and that's why I decided in the first week of June to start the Prometheus project trying to figure it out because if you can figure it out not just for electronic cash but if you can figure it out that means if you can have electronic cash without trusting your third party you don't have to use the third party that means you don't have to trust them alright that means anywhere that you currently have to you're forced to trust someone else can be removed you still have to use the service the third party service you just don't have to trust them at the moment you have to trust the government or this person or the company doing that you still have to use them but you shouldn't have to trust any of them when you go and get a service what's my driver's license got to do with what you call company my driver's license got to with me being allowed to drive on the roads around here they shouldn't know all their details when you put it that way it looks I never thought about this but it looks like a systemic flaw in the way that human societies are structured that trust is something essential because in practice humans really aren't trustworthy that's kind of a design flaw of the system that you've solved yeah so that's why I'll put a few tweets about how the real the real social efficient is planetary civilization a type 1 planetary civilization where we use the planet itself we use the 100% of the energy coming to this planet from the sun we could put satellites up with the solar panels facing towards the sun and having the energy beam down and we could have tidal generators replacing the wall that have the highest tide the tidal generators there that can generate a lot of electricity those sort of things things that are less moving parts solar panels got less moving parts than wind farm wind turbine same with the tidal generator it's just the wall itself that's lifting it up and pushing it down and during that process the generators rotate and generate the electricity if we have electricity abundance every sky fight book you ever read if you've got energy abundance the society all over the planet is uplifted thinking about problems with their batteries at the moment the reason why we have awesome gizmos all over our bodies the entire time walking around the exoskeleton so we can actually run it 100 kilometers an hour is because of power if we have batteries that could give out enough current not enough wattage over time we wouldn't be using public transportation right we'd have our own jet packs exoskeletons to move and all types of other lovely things but power is very very important is that your next project well that's another reason why we've got pre for work what's the meaning you get religious but I always go by the thought of the fates of the universe right some things just happen but shouldn't happen but they do there's no such thing as coincidence but some things these things just fall into place especially with the environment with pre for work or we need to solve this we've got this pre for work solve the energy crisis kick starters in towards solving it it generates a lot of power although I told you this beforehand right and the idea is people comes into human motivation because that's these books, neural and acoustic programming and all these other things how to manipulate people for their benefit not for evil anything okay how to motivate people to fix the pollution system you've got a global warning about CO2 CO2 there's nothing compared to the actual pollution toxic waste just generate aluminium or aluminium electricity but there's also a lot of toxic waste sludge that comes out of that so wherever the smelters are they'll land around it is wrecked same with gold smelting arsenic or whatever it is so they've got great big pits quarries full of toxic waste that leaks down into the water basins and ruins other bits of the landscape so I think the pollution is actually worse than the CO2 global warming business so you've got to be able to recycle everything at some stage so anyway on the electricity side of it prefer work because of the way the economics of it works if the usability of the token goes up because people find it's useful all of a sudden so more people are buying a fixed amount of stuff supply demand means the price will go up because it's valued more and so all of a sudden the miners their reward is worth more so other people go I'll get some mining equipment myself either more PCs at the time or more whatever scale it is and all of a sudden there'll be more assets more hashing more energy used up so in other words you think you've solved it's not the next project that you're working on it's when you've already solved people are going to have to develop it's not solved it's motivation I'm talking about leveraging other people to work I can't do it myself leverage other people this is to leverage the entire human race to either fix the problem in our lifetime or we will all perish as one this is a human extinction level event right meaning you in your lifetime in the mean of my lifetime we're either going to see ourselves solve the energy issue of being able to generate as much energy as a bonus as possible or we're going to die because we're going to actually have brownouts and blackouts during winters and so people's he just won't work and they'll freeze to death during the summers they'll be so hot they won't work to cool them down they will pass out there will be mass deaths if they don't fix this yeah so proof of work is a huge issue it's meant to be a huge issue but this isn't something that you're going into thinking right this is like a derivative beliefs that come from seeing the implications of what you've discovered right no this is all 2008 we were going through different processes of proof of work or proof of stake or this system or this system and so which is a pros and cons and I keep coming back to the proof of work this is good because it solves this when it comes to more law the more powerful computers the targeting can be changed like this here and so that will work but also the electricity we saw the benefits back then it was actually not benefits to who will be affected but it's a possible benefit one of the greatest motivators that humans have got is fear of their own death right and so it's the boiling frog scenario if it's your grandkids that's going to have the problem you're not going to do anything about it in your own time you don't care come and think here they'll just do a little devil there and devil there if they their lives themselves are at risk in the motivated to do something they're bringing laws they'll they'll have the resources they have to go onto that system there or subsidize wind farms subsidize solar panels they'll have to do it they won't have a happy retirement two things I'm still partial to the idea of market solving it where the price of electricity goes up last thing I want is some government project to say here's a billion dollar boondog to build some solar farms I want to see the entrepreneurs take over that type brother did you get a chance to read that the David Friedman book David Friedman book machinery of freedom the one I sent you no no no no how many had a chance okay the other thing is so let me get the kind of big picture the human story in addition to the kind of conceptual level what's going on with the development of Bitcoin you've got a regular human who's got a normal job conceptually dabbling in a bunch of different things knows that he's been able to solve some pretty difficult problems investigates the issue of electronic cash for a month and a half because it's interesting besides that it can't really be solved but then thinks to himself well actually if we solve this Byzantine general's problem I mean maybe I could actually solve this and then straight away when thinking that maybe you could find if you could solve it you go straight from the problem of digital cash to planetary civilization and blackouts and like massive big picture positive belief that I may have just discovered something that could be as you say an extinction level event if the world doesn't change according to my invention based on the thing that I've created yeah is that an accurate story yeah basically more accurate than the old Satoshi myth at the moment right very different one of the things were like the Bond films the James Bond movies the Bond villains trying to take over the current world and that and one of the discussions I had with Craig was that what's wrong these people why are they trying to take over this world this world's crap all they're doing is replacing one crap top of government with another crap dictator what's the difference what would be more interesting if you were able to take over the world of tomorrow I haven't seen a James Bond movie yet so what say we were ever villains we take over the world so the idea is to take over the world take over the world in such a way that we transfer who's who's in power from the current group of people to everyone else think of a Bond villain with a Robin Hood complex but you're not stealing from the rich and giving to the poor they do work and they should have control over the substance of their work so instead of having tax is theft the idea is in society you should it's usually useful to pull your resources together a little bit so you can do something for society right that's how the banks and insurance companies are based upon you all put a little tiff if something goes wrong on your farm that insurance company will actually pay out so you're basically all helping whoever may have a problem and you can do that with roads as well and anything else the main problem is that if it's taken from you forcefully well the person that's taken from you forcefully is not inclined to spend it wisely on your behalf and from my perspective that's the main issue it's not that we pay taxes at all it's how it's done you just mentioned beforehand about how the current society is functioning is dysfunctional and with technology we can make it better than it could ever be before so I even mentioned this on Twitter yesterday about how your local road in your suburb no private company is ever going to pay for that so unless you had a taxation system you're pulling your resources locally so that a local council can put a contract out for a road maintenance company to actually go and fix the road and fix the potholes every now and then then your roads going to go to ruin it might be pulled up and be left as dirt and stone yeah but take an example like Disneyland right, Disneyland is this area it's huge private coverage, private ownership but yet they have roads that they use but internally yeah for their own benefit but a normal suburb what private company cares about the roads that's in the house in the suburb a normal road it's not like it was 100 years ago where everyone that worked at the railways lived in houses right beside walking through the railways and they just walked back and forth like that the railroads did not pay those roads nowadays people are living two hours away, two hour commute so why would a company two hours away pay for a little square meterage of your road to be paid it will never ever happen so I have one thing to say and then one thing I want to ask you this is an excellent setup so the thing to say is I don't think that companies who wouldn't benefit should be forced to pay for roads I think the people that are going to get the benefit will be able to either voluntarily pool their resources or they will be like other businesses want roads to be paid because I can drive to the store to buy their product so I think it could be done privately but that's why I ask about the David Friedman book because I think he talks about roads but I don't want that's kind of a political theory aside the thing that I want to ask you if you're going to believe hold hands hold hands in a circle and go la dee daa in a circle yes we'll all do it people do not act that way they are always acting I agree a company will never pave a road unless it benefits them directly yes but that's what the what the book covers it covers the profit profit motive for private individuals to voluntarily pool their resources in a way that benefits them in the most concrete even that phrase private individual pooling their resources voluntarily that phrase does not really make sense in the real world I know well take something like lighthouses even in a church get handed a bag put a few coins and a few dollars in their hearts because they're afraid of what happens if they didn't do that they're trying to pave their way into a heaven that's why they do that it's a theory about I completely agree with you on that point but it's a theory about good people go to churches, churches are not good right so it's a theory about public goods are there such things as public goods and there's a school of thinking which says that really there are no such things as public goods that if you really investigate the incentives at play if you have universal private property ownership like if people own parts of the ocean or they own rivers and they own streams you can actually have for purely self-interested reasons the protection of things that people normally think of as public goods like for example a common example is the lighthouse one of the text book arguments for the public good is well no individual is enough to finance the production of a lighthouse well you have sailors unions you have groups of individuals that say we're all going to benefit from having a lighthouse so we don't crash in the ocean or crash on land because that's expensive so we're just going to as a trade union pool our resources and buy a lighthouse so I think the same thing might be able to be done with roads and anything else if you're looking at central business districts or central finance districts maybe differently but I'm talking about suburbs where it's just residential housing so how would you respond to this then what if it's the case that the reason we have inefficient road placement and housing placement is precisely because the creation of roads was subsidized by government not for profit-driven reasons so in other words maybe it should be the case that cities should be laid out in a fashion such that where you get the residential buildings built is along the roads is close to the business system and like is profit-driven rather than oh hey I want to live out in the middle of the force somewhere government come along and pay for my road for me well it's sort of kind of like that you may find the main arterial roadways pave but I'm talking about the actual residential roads yourself you go from the 70k road into the 50k road it's just residential and also who's going to pave that no, no trucks are going to go around there either all the cul-de-sacs there's only residential there will never ever be trucks going down there it's just for movement trucks why not homeowners associations couldn't they do that I mean they pay for like garbage removal and those type of things couldn't you have a homeowners association that said hey this is the fun for road maintenance how is that going to be set up though I don't know set it up as you would so somebody's got a somebody owns a piece of land they're making a residential community and they specify in order to move here you have to agree to the homeowners association that has X percentage or X amount of money that gets pooled into the local subdivision road construction fund that sounds almost like strata management in an apartment complex is that one group say oh this is the common area and so you got to pay extra for the common area and that about that common area instead of the same bit of park lane the common area is now the roadway yeah yeah but it's but it's the thing is the difference between that and the government is that that would be privately funded that would be a contract I agree to and say okay yes I'll agree with those rules yes I agree with the homeowners association and it still gets created that's actually an interesting idea thanks it's not it might actually work thank you yeah yeah yeah but that might that actually might might work in the system I'm trying to work out at the moment I recommend when you get the time check out David Friedman Mr. Union of Freedom because everybody I mean it's everybody has the same story we've been taught about economics these these are normal intuitions but I think there's actually an interesting story that can be built about how we might actually be able to solve these without the and be able to keep the whole system voluntary which is why I think so many libertarians and like anarchists love Bitcoin so much just because it's private money it's got nothing to do with the state this one the issues is the libertarians anarchist other side you got socialist they're not sides though it's a scale and I always thought that you can take an element of socialism element of another end and somewhere in between can take elements of both and make them work right this this is most of those is a libertarian and no I don't want to pay any taxes totally socialist means we've got to take everyone's but larger check chunk of people's resources using force yes there is a halfway mark where you can actually have a bit of both pay taxes but it's libertarian which means you control your taxes that's what's this due to this sphere thing I'm working on at the moment that was I'd worked on in like 2009-2010 and Craig refused to put it in that's why I decided right I'm going to leave took me six months to actually leave right but yeah the main reason is because the whole point is to have a geodesic sphere so divide the whole planet into rectangles so that when we move the Mars we use the same structure geodesic sphere over Mars have it over the moon over Titan right same at the moment countries are divided by this river and this mountain range well those mountain ranges and rivers don't exist on Mars or moon which is a stupid way of dividing up ownership territory right so the idea is to divide it up but I want to respond to what you said about the spectrum of the political theory spectrum I completely agree with you there's a very popular juvenile petty anarchism which is like I'm just going to do my own thing and there's no understanding of context or relations and how societies work or anything like that you live in a society so you do actually have to bend a little bit to sort of it's almost like a metaphysical thing like if it's the case you're living in society there is a particular relation between you and the other people in the society but there's another more radical type of anarchism which is 100% based in self-interest capitalism anarcho-capitalism is the title of it but I remember last time we were talking you were saying you see the list of the seven deadly sins is like a template for how people actually act in the world it's 100% based on that and the thing is like public goods problems is now instead of this is something we need government to do which you're going to have concrete problems and how do you structure the government can you opt out what if they're incompetent how do you vote them out how do you keep the incentives right in government this is like okay well let's just what if we take the government off the table and we say these are all entrepreneurial problems how can individual businessmen operating under a profit incentive actually give us things like public goods and I think they build a pretty plausible story what about Defensive State that's in the David Friedman book as is the private production of law there's a book also by Robert Murphy called chaos theory where he talks about the private production of legal systems and gives a very again a very plausible story for both criminal law and for contract law I'm going to have to hunt down that link again cool because I'm on the windows to be seen now so get away from the Mac I'm going to try and find it I'll Skype it too I'll Skype both of those things to you just because I think you've got a functioning imagination that's like how could this work how could this work and a little bit of a plausible exposure I feel like you're going to go okay maybe you could do this but will the jurors just explain the basics of how divide everything up what's worked out but some parts it was still not figured out and still are but the basis of say some of these things can be seen to be devised by privately and other companies as well but you still need a government as a service layer so the other ones are senior contracts so many cases it's different from each country but we've got over here like Medicare so one or two percent of your income goes towards paying for a basic medical care for everyone you don't have to worry about saying I'll still cost me $10 going to the doctor you just go and see the doctor but here's the problem with that though and that kind of system when you have a certain fixed percentage that's taken you don't have the right incentives so it's like all through every layer so the idea of the jurors is that you can test all the triangles down to even the size of the house as you want and so when you make a transaction and you're paying say 1% tax or 1% tax you can decide which territory will be allowed to spend that tax usually it's in your area that you live in but you might decide okay a place in Kenya needs to build a dam and on social media you get a whole bunch of people right for the next week any of our taxes from our transactional tax will go towards the unnecessary step though isn't it I mean so it seems like to me that's an unnecessary step if we can already have things like the private financing of building dams in Kenya online which you can do why would you say we're going to have another system where you can choose to have your money given to bureaucrats by middlemen that seems like an unnecessary middleman step well part of it is a transition there's another thing of this current system there's something new and we're just going to go squash it's a transition this current system into the new system it's not anarchy saying down with government is how can we transform government into this new system this might be one way around it but if there's a way to do it and skipping this step to make the transition faster that would be more preferable okay so last thing on that I love these conversations are so hard to resist you gotta remember that that our our dissentance in 200 years time 200 years time 500 years time they already exist right now so they already know what we've done in our time we don't so anything we do and decide is a win-flux it's like the old Terminator movies the future has not been made yet but for our dissentance their history has been fixed what we're about to do is fix history in their time so we can be very fixable of what we're about to do we don't know if it's going to work or not our dissentance no so I think when you say the anarchist the petty anarchist of which there are many is down with government I think the the more correct perspective is to say let's privatize governance or let's deminopelize governance let's still get some of those essential services but let's bring them into the profit and loss sphere yeah but you gotta do it a specific way like in New Zealand we have things called Estates Enterprises which is basically governments and private companies coming together to put on say electricity or telecommunications or whatever you have it over here Australia with it comes to say building motorways the government will come and put in some taxpayer money and then you've got private companies putting their investments in to build a motorway same type of thing you can't just privatize it the incentives are going to be geared up to the private companies are going to be they're going to be arseholes and they've got to do so so that it benefits us most likely there's private companies coming involved and all of a sudden we were promised cheaper electricity prices now it's actually more expensive okay so when I talk to people about political theory on this and about the question of transition this is an area I don't know concretely here's what I would say there is a theory about how all goods could be created in the private marketplace you could say voluntarily or by entrepreneurs or within the profit and loss system roads included I think that is true from what I can tell where we currently are is way far away from that theory and I don't know what the middle looks like because like for example I think probably the hardest question is like what do you do with nuclear weapons if you don't have governments you have private ownership of nuclear weapons how the heck does that work I'm not sure that the solution is well we have nuclear weapons and let's let the government have them there's a bunch of sociopaths we have a bunch of bad incentives but I'm not sure what the correct the pure anarchist position is but I think it's important to say with that transition period how we go from here to there is to identify exactly where there is because if we're trying to transition to a like a small government state or a voluntary like voluntary taxes type system I think that looks like a different transition versus if we're going to the whole pure like fully market based system so I don't have a good answer though how we go like even if we were to say the ideal is to have everything in the market okay but you have the public ownership of roads you have the public ownership of nuclear weapons how do you begin to privatize those things I don't know yeah yeah yeah I don't think anyone's got the proper correct answer at the moment this is one of the things I've told two people arguing they should have helium so if everyone got to argue you take a bit of helium they have the old squeaky voice how long can they argue for right it makes whatever they argue about not so serious after all alright so before you go and go and nuke someone it could be a rule each side take some helium and then discuss whether you should nuke someone but who enforces the rules though that's just it though the idea is to take it away from humans that's the whole basis of this technology there's no bitcoin invention there's the invention of bitcoin uses the invention for the stuff and a lot of it comes down to it takes the human element out of it and puts it into its system itself that's where the idea of this voluntary tax payment no one's going to volunteer the voluntary would be that's the tragedy of the commons because everyone says someone else will foot the bill that's the hero the idea is to actually have it fixed but allow them to control over it so you pay your opposite tax but you have control where it gets spent at the moment you're forced through violence because if you didn't pay it you end up having a cop come to you if you resist you'll be zapped and that so it is supported by violence and then you have a politician pay for a helicopter to fly to their children's masonry or whatever you're going to be able to stop that you're going to be able to say right that's my taxes that are paying for that that's my work that's my money I'm allowing you to use it on my behalf I'm delegating a bit of my funds to use for the benefit of my society if you don't do that I will stop you from accessing it whether that goes to private entity or to public service it does not matter as long as it's my money I decide I have control of where it goes but that is that does sound voluntary you're saying I can choose to withhold my payments you can't withhold do you make the payment because the tax is taken when you make the transaction just like you've got a minus fee you end up having a geotext fee so it's allocated to a territory but you can change the street instead of being that territory whatever taxes are left over your taxes you can say I want it to be allocated to that other territory or that other private entity that does have access to my funds that's what I'm working on at the moment what mechanism would enforce that the government agents are bound to act in accordance with what the preferences are of the taxpayer well basically if they've got no funds they can't do a damn thing can they so you're saying having a cryptographic way of literally not taking any funds it's your funds that you're signing and you're signing saying the authority in this territory can access those funds like anybody you can spend authority can spend in that territory and you decide okay now I'm going to move it to the other territory you no longer have access to those funds my tax funds at the moment the current system you've got no control over it whatsoever the employer to rip it out of your before the employer even gives it to you they send it off to the government so you can have a go at your employer for doing the government's dirty work and you've got no control it goes into a pooled area that can be funded for absolutely anything this way you have more control you might say so when it comes down to which party should I vote for doesn't matter we actually day by day just signing on I like that policy for the next month my tax is going to pay for that policy so how is your how is that system you envision could you rephrase it as this that what you're doing is essentially turning government officials into profit seeking businesses is it profit seeking because all these services they outsource the services or resource seeking let's say it's more like you know you got these different people universities or high schools that want to be like president of the class or whatever and so they say I have this policy this policy fund me whatever and I'll get more drinking tax than over there or whatever it's all that and it's not like people wanting their policies to vote to that so it's it's it sounds like it's very similar to how the current system is currently working why were they going to government in the first place they're not going to get rich over it alright they're rent seekers meaning they don't actually produce much value in society but they get a stable big fat paycheck with a nice salary and pension well then you're talking about the transition between the current system and the new system because at some stage we don't need those people at all the self could be privatised think about it I want this done I want that done well there are ideas people are saying we want that it doesn't matter whether that person is a government official or not that's what the policy want to go for we can actually outsource to get rid of government completely and have it totally controlled by the people well yes and I think that sounds like a different way of kind of envisioning too but what's the difference between that public pool of funds and you just like not pooling them so you're going to spend some particular amount of your income to get services that you want why would you need this intermediate pool that you choose from versus just paying them directly I got Rose being taken care of medical facilities being taken care of I don't have to do anything to do with it I don't want people doing that I don't want to now have to spend some time of my day or week dealing with road or maintenance other people would do it I don't want to spend learning a whole new different type of system I want to ease the transition from the current system into a better system and most people will just say it's a wallet so when you go to transfer some money it's going to be a minus fee and the default will be your geolocation the big triangle that surrounds your area that's where the funds default go to you have the choice to change it to more specific areas most people won't do that the majority of people will just want to make a payment they don't want to make a political statement say I want to fund that air conditioning in that school over there I'm not going to do that unless it's in social media but the idea is to give people the freedom to be able to choose where their funds are spent when they decide they want to choose let's say that they are on an aisle they don't have to choose so what happens if they don't choose all of you governments are doing a poor job I'm not going to give you any money what happens to them there's a geotext using a test solution it's like a 20-sided dice it's all equilateral triangles so that's the test solution level zero that's what the default will be which is the size of a continent pretty much not necessarily over land this structure has to work on Mars and Titan and the moon and so at the default it's at level zero that triangle you are actually making a transaction in that's where the geotext is allocated if you want to allocate it down to say New York or San Francisco or LA or Tokyo then you just zoom in to that triangle and tap that okay taxes for then on or for the current day or next month or whatever your geotext will be allocated to that territorial region question for you then we'll get back on bitcoin but this is so good so in that system that you're envisioning you still have a huge interplanetary structural problem which is how do you structure the governments around the the taxation system do you elect them then you're going to have political nonsense that goes on like hot that's the one system where you still have these intermediaries that are connected to like the triangle on the globe but the other is an alternative system which is get rid of the entire intermediaries and just have your money paying for things that you want and if you want it bundled together there's going to be companies or homeowners associations that are going to bundle your bills for you like the place we're living right now landlord I pay he bundles the sewer and the water together I just gave him one check why couldn't it work that way all this stuff hasn't been worked out yet all right at the moment I'm working on the geodesic coordinate system so the structure of the object and then be able to put them into GPS and I've got to do things like the earth itself is an oblated spheroid so that's actually when you go to the north the diameter of the north to south pole and across the equator the diameter is out by 0.3% so that's wider on the equator and then put GPS coordinates and line it put a texture of our planet earth on it and see if they actually line up correctly so once I've actually got that working then I'll start working out these other problems or engaging other people to do so because the idea is not for one person to know everything on how to do it there are other people that understand how governments work and whether those forms of governments should still be used the idea is having two different levels of governments to correct themselves one tries to use too much power the other one can actually stop it like the old congress and the senate that type of system sometimes you need that type of system for checks and balances now the earth itself can be completely it's fine however people can be manipulated through social media through a celebrity and then make a nuclear war and a few celebrities decide those are bad people they need to be nudes we don't want that situation well so I'm going to be approaching this concept as I think about it thinking that what you're actually doing is you are creating the system of voluntary governance as you do the whole geodesic thing whether or not that's the way you're looking at I'm putting it in my own political theory and saying okay well we can have voluntary governance we just need entrepreneurs and people to solve these problems and I think that's kind of what you're interested in those that won't do it will do it and those that don't want to do it they'll have default settings so it will just still function the idea of a planetary civilization not all the details have been worked out and of course I'd rather as I talk to other people they want a high level document basically of it so that I get funding so I can stop my day job and focus on it with other people that will be able to help a lot further but the basis of it is still going to be a geodesic sphere on the planet in Davonia the whole land mass into territories allocates well for my two cents on that there's a I don't know how familiar you are with the Austrian school of economics but there's a line of economic and public choice theory I don't know if you're familiar with that as well but there's a few things in listening to this conversation that I feel like I don't know if you've already dove into it and analyze the ideas and try to extract what you find of merit but there's really really interesting like rational economic work out there about why this why the incentives inside any government system are really perverted corrupt inherently and then there's the political commentary that comes on top of the economics which is to say hey if we can come up with a system that just eradicates the ding middlemen all together that would be ideal well from a recalling perspective I was doing this all through 2008, 2009, 2010 implementation for at least the beginning of the geodesic sphere was there for early 2010 I recall that part of it that's why I know I've got to actually create the based on the 20 side dice from Dungeons and Dragons because all that other stuff but the other details I haven't recalled yet so a lot of times when I've forgotten things like a seemingly language in the past I've got to re-study that and while I'm re-studying I'm going oh I remember this now and now I remember that now that's effectively how Bitcoin origins has been written is that I'd study something and these other memories will come back just like looking through a photo album seeing a picture and only because you saw the picture you'll remember other things that happened but without seeing that picture you don't recall anything so I'm working on the geodesic sphere part of it but I'm going to have to go back to that was a key Nezion and Osteon and Mises and that all that type of stuff I've got to re-read that stuff because I did back then I don't recall any of it now but people keep talking about these people all the time so I'm going to have to re-read that stuff and see what pops back when it comes to associating with the geodesic sphere so what you're saying might be obviously nothing wrong with your normal memory and it's probably spot on when it comes to this is the reason why I was creating this thing in the first place was because it linked to Nezion well for what it's worth I'm just going to assume the role of a mini Craig here and I'm going to assemble some resources for you to skim that I think you'd find interesting okay so the question that I want to ask is when we're building the story of Satoshi Nakamoto and we're demythologizing it you're a guy and you've done some research you've built some things you got intrigued by a problem and tried to solve it and then also went back to doing normal stuff most to most people that sounds impossible because people of that level of intellect are constantly solving the world's problems usually they think like in the upper echelons of the ivory tower or something like that so my question is half tongue in cheek who do you think you are you're some guy with a regular job and you discovered you think you've discovered you think you have the ability to solve the Byzantine generals problem and create electronic cash and solve a problem that nobody else has been able to solve how do you conceive of yourself do you think of yourself as the genius walking around well one thing what you just said was on a normal guy clearly I'm not however the way the society is being created locked into being having a day job the only reason why I was able to do the bitcoin stuff was because the job I had was a security job 12 hour shifts 4 days on 4 days off at a gate at an airport so that I was only checking IDs half an hour and got busy about 2 times when the engineer shifts changed over at a gate in a turnstile so I had many many hours on my day job and night job to think of these things through not just when I was working on the bitcoin tech or tech use in bitcoin but all these other ideas and plans and stuff all the time at one stage I went through binary spaced petitioned trees that was using like quake and not wasn't dying quake and those other ones it's software made quake 3 arena binary spaced petitioned to divide up the environment that you walk through for culling quickly I got all these resources a group of those big folders to follow them for the information had it at my desk there all the stuff all the calculations dot product calculations computations by hand to learn the stuff and then at home I'd do it on the computer that was during my day job and I'd stop and check someone's ID licking through the airside and continue at a normal or any other job if you were a construction worker building a residential property at one stage if you've got time to do that you don't so there's a difference between the person that can think these things through as well as having the time to do it on the job that you're getting paid I'm still doing my job but in the downtime I can do all these studies so those circumstances were there before I had that job I wouldn't be able to do it because the day job drains your energy every year or week with creative energy the same at the moment I'm doing iOS development making apps for iPhones and iPads my creative tech energy is doing that making these apps for someone else so in the evenings I don't have the energy to continue doing stuff but at that time I did ask a question before I give an aside it's been interesting but if anybody listens to that they might so this is an aside from the martial arts so in the history of the martial arts there's a school called Brazilian Jiu Jitsu which in the middle of the 20th century Brazilian is that the one almost like Greg dancing no that's capoeira so there's Brazilian isn't it yep capoeira is Brazilian so in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu it comes from Japan actually but the Japanese guy taught us some students in Brazil one of the students was very weak in frail so he modified a lot of the techniques it's a grappling art to make it super duper effective and now it's called Brazilian Jiu Jitsu instead of Japanese Jiu Jitsu and in the world of mixed martial arts it's like an essential piece of everybody's game you must learn Brazilian Jiu Jitsu otherwise you're going to lose the reason for that is because when this guy's name is Alio Gracie the founder of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu when he mastered this discipline he essentially put out a call to the rest of the world and he said look I have the best style in the world you can come here I'll fight you no holds barred we're gonna see who's gonna win and he said if you beat me while I've demonstrated the superiority so for like 40 years or maybe more 60 years Brazilian Jiu Jitsu dominated the world of the martial arts and it was like historically profound because before you had all of these other schools you had 12 different styles of kung fu and a thousand different styles of karate and all of these different things nobody knew who was best they were all very insular Brazilian Jiu Jitsu kind of blew that apart and said these techniques are actually superior so for a while people were thinking these are the techniques which are like the true martial arts everybody must know them but when you ask some of the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu practitioners that were destroying everybody before they adjusted their game they said why is this stuff so superior and they said well there's a few reasons one the body mechanics the actual mechanics of how the body works this is in accordance with them but they also said something very similar to what you just said and it has to do with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is not a striking art it's a grappling art where you don't have to cause damage to your opponent or you don't have to take damage so when you're sparring you can train at an extremely high level for very long periods of time and come back tomorrow and you don't have a brain injury so there's like a systemic superiority in the amount of time that you have to spend on the mat without injury in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu which allowed the practitioners to be these super highly talented martial artists versus the striker the boxer, the Muay Thai guy if you go 95% or 100% in the gym all the time you have to take time off because you're going to get brain damage you're going to have black eyes beat in the face so there's like this structural superiority of literally spending more time on the mat makes this superior discipline and it sounds like that's kind of what you're describing that you have to be blind to do it and you have the time to sit and think that is such a strong combination to be able to solve historically difficult problems whether they're in the martial arts or in this case they're in computer science yeah, pretty much if I didn't have that job I've had a normal job I wouldn't have had the time to do stuff which is one of the annoying things I have about education and normal jobs themselves is that most of the stuff that people do it's not going to have any long reaching effects at all ever people talk about things like butterfly flapping its wings somewhere causing a tornado in Japan or something like that well no that's just rubbish if you punch your hand or your fist into the sand and the beach it'll affect all the kilometers out, the force it's not going to affect anything at the end of the beach little on half around the world some of the butterfly the gas around will absorb their energy before it goes anywhere else so the same type of things is if you don't allow people to do at least be able to think just do a mindless job shifting paperwork around presentations to put up a meeting so what? does anyone really care and isn't going to change anything in 3 months time 6 months time, 2 years time if not, why are you doing it and usually it's because that's the way business is structured how schools are structured how schools are taught instruct people that are learning business how to run their business it's wrong so we've got to change how companies run to stop the wastage of our brains back in the say in 20 years time it's going to be a huge calamity it's going to destroy half of the human species some biological and the person in one universal timeline that succeeds in finding the solution was a guy that actually works in the middle of a rural area in Romania and if they carry on the current system he'll end up having a dead end job doing nothing much and half of humanity is going to go poof or if it's made a system so that he can actually have a decent education or she have a decent education and be allowed to think on biological matters and then end up saving humanity which is given the choice which one you prefer you prefer a system which allows that brain to be used more beneficial the thing is we don't know where those brains are at all there are always superiorities in different cultures and races they always think that your own race or your own culture is the better one how in the Win32Assembly community we have people from every single culture or across the planet even nations that culturally or politically they're against each other like Palestinians and Israelites politically in the real world they're firing missiles one way and throwing rocks another and all rest but in the message board on the forum you had a set level of behaviors and they can communicate and cooperate and all rest not an issue they're allowed to express themselves and go further but in other situations they'll never be able to do that all right so you've got to have systems open enough so that just because someone's in a poor area or poor suburb they should not be suppressed and have less chance of being able to use brains as others say take New York worldwide you know that you've got some suburbs in New York that are the less educated other suburbs that are more educated well the brains to the brain they they educate if people are in a poor environment and get poor schooling and the peer pressure makes them want to act in a way that's negative that's always going to be negative one of those brains is the one that's supposed to do something really fantastic that invents a new power source to allow us to rock it over to Mars in one month rather than nine months right so the whole education system is going to be changed the political system is going to be changed there's a lot of work to be done it's not a hobby at all when you are thinking about the brain okay would you look at your own story though your creation did not come from formal education it didn't come from having this prestigious background at these universities and having access to these academics it's kind of despite that or it almost seems like it couldn't have come from those or it's too spiked that yeah that as well so if it's the case that you have systems of high education in which it's producing people with no accomplishment and perhaps no ability to accomplish because of the way that they think is it necessarily would you want an alternative system where you have this formal education of the brilliant brains or is it better that they kind of stay outside and be autodidacts and learn the things themselves well I'm not against formal education I'm more into vocational training learning how to do something how to execute it how to do it I'm against lecturers I'm for instructors tell me how to do something show me how to do it if you see the pyramids of how people retain information faster it's like an upside down pyramid or whatever it goes by if it's the written word we'll remember within a day or whatever it was in two weeks we will retain 10% of what we just read and 20% of what we hear and 30% what we see and 50% of what we actually do so the idea is to do vocational where people actually do the thing that they actually want to learn not just here of our lecture going blah blah blah we're going to train the minimum amount that's the worst type of education the worst would be if they just strolled on the boards in the information and that's it that's the worst if they retain information and they're just saying what's in the books we're going to retain 10% of the information in a couple of weeks and if the lecturers are those who have proven that the Byzantine general problem is unsolvable those are also the people that are the ones talking and doing the lectures so it's mostly university type those type of lecturers I think after a waste of time and we can get rid of all of them right now and it's actually beneficial the chemistry classes when you're actually in there mixing chemistry together with the old vacuum to suck up all the fumes so you don't get knocked out in there that's practical that's the best way of educating educating people the chemistry lab top of educating all the physics when you're actually dropping stuff and knocking things over and moving things around those are better than just the words on the screen and so if all educational facilities change over to a more vocational or instructional type what's the point of having a mathematical formula let's apply that applied science, applied chemistry, applied physics vocational which means doing it on the job or applied should be for everything now these lectures and stuff most universities side of things but I used to do things like usually the lectures themselves are public so most universities you just go to and listen to the lecture the assignments and and all the marking and all the rest that you've got to pay for so you can actually get university level education for free in most cases but not for things like the chemistry labs which you pay for but the lectures but again you're only going to change 10% of the information it's not so good but I used to go to the library there and get the library book the university level library books say on physics and that and then use read them at home so instead of going to a normal bookstore which would have something on physics I'd go to the university bookstore which are the books used in the university level degrees and read them so I ask about your self-perception because I think people have this idea that in order to solve meaningful problems you have to have a self-perception of you being a genius or you being something just you're the next level human you walk in and they go this is a problem that nobody's been able to solve well it's because my mind hasn't been applied to it is that the way that you kind of approach the solving of the bitcoin problem or are you thinking okay I'm interested in these ideas I'm interested in their application here's a problem people have been able to fix I wonder if I can just solve it how much of your thinking is spent man I'm so smart I'm the one who's qualified and can solve this versus how much of the time is spent actually just playing with the ideas and seeing if you can solve them well I'll come back to what I said before about either you use it or you lose it so years ago back then I always thought that I'd forgotten more stuff than most people would learn in their lifetime so then go to university, get a degree get a job that's to do with that degree do that for 30, 40, 50 years then retire and what they've learned during the entire time I'd learned three or four times that much and forgotten about it because I used to think about I made sure she calculated beforehand I learned the math of it and then I make the functions of it then I move on just to use those functions now I've forgotten that information next time I have to do something with them I've got to relearn it again which is faster because I've already got those memory hooks inside my brain so relearning is faster I still have to go through the learning process like everyone else and I had to do that again and again which is just too bloody annoying while other people I'd find I think are smart they can they remember all these the maths or the functions or the syntax structure for a function for programming almost every single time if I sit down I've got to make a function I've got to glance at the function beforehand and go what's the syntax of that function I've got to go if you if I sit down giving a test right now saying how do I make a function in this language, in this language I don't know my brain doesn't give me that information I'm this I see as a sign how is that such a myth for you this is true this is why this story is compelling because in order to do what you're doing you have to have the ability to judge what information is important to retain and what information is a means to an end so that you can forget about it it is true in every other discipline if you're somebody if you're retaining the metadata you're wasting brain space that's like I told you earlier I did this video recently about the history of mathematics and somebody was like oh well could you share the resources your references I'm thinking I've done multiple years of researching on this thing if I sat and thought about it I could maybe come up with three book titles the important bits of the information are there but the metadata is irrelevant why would I store the publication times in the name of the person that's completely irrelevant to actually learning the thing and it reminds me this is also something, this is a very loose quote because it's been a while since I heard it but Einstein was kind of poked fun at for this because we think Einstein is such a genius his name is synonymous with we now use his name to reference somebody that's a genius if they're in Einstein somebody asked him something very basic about like what you're talking about the details of the mathematical calculations and he couldn't bring them up off the top of his head he's like I don't know I have to think about that and somebody said well how can you come up with all these big ideas if you're not retaining this basic information and he said look there's only so much you can think about this is irrelevant information to retain you have a finite amount of space in your mind and so you apply you want to make as much space as you possibly can for creative thinking to solve all the problems you write them down and then you forget about them because they serve no purpose anymore that's exactly what I've just said yeah that's effectively what you also find those people they can excel at those sort of tests like oh what's this how do you do a function say it's our loop function a full loop and this and this and that and you think well the people that can retain all that information are usually not the A-class players maybe so pretty damn you're told to do a job they do that job but they can't come up with the idea of the job in the first place they can't come up with the idea they might be A-class in the sense of you get told to come up with the idea to solve this thing and they can go through all the different functions that they can be important to use but they can't come up with the idea in the first place and you see this time again with themself I think of my brain as an asshole well that's inadequately incorrect but I've got the area the thing of what's from the pictures is Guy the Galaxy there's a lot of quotes to fill out the Bitcoin tech of this this one was about what if your brains there was a theory that once what would be your brains gain sentience and took over your body right I think it wasn't Hitchhiker's Guy it was one of the other Douglas happens and anything is what if this has already happened and if you can actually figure out the actual purpose of the universe it'll instantly disappear and a new one be created that's just as inexplicable as the current one the idea though is what if your brain takes over your body and what has already happened so I want to know something I know I've learnt it beforehand I go right brain tell me it and my brain goes I'll tell you I need to know it tells you I don't want to know it at 2 a.m. I wanted to know it when I wanted to know and so you think who's in control here right I mean things like the brains are the most important all in your body who's actually saying that it's your brain saying it's the most important that's pretty arrogant isn't it right you don't have your liver saying it's the most important right yeah so I think I've told you just beforehand about during the avianics course we were learning things about valve technology and I learnt in such depth that I knew it more than the instructor right so they were getting me to get up in front to actually explain to the rest of the class about the valve technology and how the graphs work and the histories of curves and what not and so I was instructor level while I was actually learning the stuff but we go do a test on it and the pamphlet and my brain just wouldn't give me the information I said I know the answer because I taught everyone else here and as soon as I walk out all of a sudden my brain will give me the information so psychologically inside it must be something against test or something but I've got no control over that whatsoever so when it comes to retaining basic information I'll let the line go it's a waste of time if I needed to know the format of the function I'll just scroll the page up and down why should I remember that just so I can be tested on it at some time I don't need to know that it's already in front of me in fact now that we've moved into Google and being able to search stuff you can retain even less metadata type stuff because just a quick search on Stack Overflow and you got the information well when it works out you got the information quickly I've been working with iOS and Swift and there's been a lot of problems with that language so it's not going so well as it used to but you still don't retain the information so it sounds like from the outside it sounds like what your brain and maybe mind is is a learning machine learning, synthesizing understanding the concepts which is the understanding and then trying to apply it apply, apply, apply because you're not an academic I'm going to learn these concepts and applications so that I can teach them inevitably or forever and then I'm going to write them down and people repeat the wisdom you know that so many so many academics what do they do, they go on to teach what they've just been taught they don't actually apply any damn thing oh and then they write a book on it so they can get their students to buy their books and now I'm a published author I think just a little incestuous circle there that really shouldn't exist but yeah but it's not just that as a kid I used to go from Christchurch to New Zealand totally flat, the entire city so I cycle on a Saturday I end up going on seven hour cycle rides around all the model, past that model shops, the best ones around when they existed and I'd see people on the side of the road and I used to just to keep myself occupied by cycling, trying to imagine why is that person there at that time why are they going that direction, where they're going to where are they going from I think of the whole backstory of it and I'd do it again and again and again to try and have a guess of if that circumstance was different would they be walking that way or would they be walking that other direction or wearing different clothing or and I'd do this again and again and every now and then, every few weeks I'd actually just go across to them and ask them oh who are you and I'd say Dave was also always completely different from whatever I thought of but I keep that going again and again for years so I always train my mind to look at something and try and figure out what was the history of it, what's the future history of it, how it can be manipulated so when it comes to the Bitcoin tech trying to figure things out I was pulling stuff from all different directions but I'm grabbing them, pulling them apart moving the pieces around, locking them trying to figure out where they came from previously where we were going to analysing the crap out of everything so it wasn't just someone with a brain if I wasn't doing that as a kid naturally I wouldn't be able to figure things out now like that right and this is interesting too because I'm interested in kind of intelligence and the abstract so what you're describing kind of reminds me of a mathematician his name is Henry Poincare and he's relevant because he just came up with my video I was talking about I have a a heretical position on the mathematical notion of the completed infinity or the infinite totality there's different sizes of infinite sets I think it's Tosh but anyway this guy also thought that and he was also interested in intelligence in general he was interested in the way his own mind operated because he solved a bunch of problems he's this influential guy but he, I forget what the analogy was but he said something along the lines of it's like a bee and it goes from flower to flower to flower to flower it's pollinating it's learning it's busy among many many many many areas I don't try to just focus on one thing I sit down and focus on today I'm going to solve this problem it's that you get exposure and you get a mental activity across many disciplines, many ways of thinking and then kind of in the background your subconscious operates as you said, two in the morning, oh yeah that's that information or that's the solving of the problem it's not even necessarily this conscious thing it's like you expose your brain to a problem and then when you forget about the problem it's still working on it somehow have you had that experience? that is the way it was solved it's not just the the many hours of thinking about it during my shift work in that and the hours off in that what you end up doing is you can it's like you know you say you want to wake up to fresh bread in the morning so you prepare the ingredients to night beforehand, put it in the bread machine and it turns on at 6am and then you got smell of lively yeast through the house it's like that you could at night beforehand, you got to solve a problem or have a step towards it and you look at something then you quickly have a few notes here then you got to sleep and your subconscious keeps working away at it working away at it and in the morning you might actually have a solution the idea is not to think about the solution let your subconscious work on it again it comes into your brain as an asshole it decides what it's working on you know what it's working on it when it's going to give you the answer if ever, you don't know this essentially sounds like magic you just got to keep feeding it and keep feeding it it's not just random feeding it you got to feed it a certain direction right so that's where the conscious comes into it then again the conscious is it just a manifestation a delusional manifestation of your subconscious telling your consciousness oh I want to go there or I want to read that this idea of free will I don't think exists at all right it's inevitable that I'm going to go in this direction do you find that the part of the role of the conscious is not just to maybe kind of direct the concepts you expose yourself to but also a veto process because what I found in trying to solve some of my own less applicable problems is that like with the mind-body problem there's this obstinate problem that's been there for a long time and years I knew there was a solution couldn't figure it out I've probably generated 10,000 plus different potential theories 9999 of which I think about them I try to poke holes in them because they fail they're wrong but that is deliberate if there's any sitting down and like line by line thinking through the concept it's not coming up with a new concept it's like analyzing and rejecting it it's the role of the conscious and finally I found one I think that actually solves it but only after going through that same process it's like I actually can't veto this one I think it might work have you found that's the same thing is it your consciousness vetoing it or is it your subconscious telling your consciousness to veto it you never can be quite so sure so again it comes back to all those books I read about entrepreneurship and how to run companies small businesses and stuff a lot of them going about the same thing again and again about gaining leads in terms of prospects in terms of clients and all that type of stuff once you've got the system you can just numbers the game and scale it and a lot of it comes down to manipulation of people and how when people go and get a product emotionally they've already decided to get it their subconscious has already decided by using their feelings emotions that they want it and so they supply your consciousness with the desires from your past they can supply it with any other things say all of a sudden you see a lovely bar of chocolate all of a sudden you feel like I want the bar of chocolate it's not your consciousness it's your subconscious saying what it does and it's fed your consciousness your consciousness with all the good feedback it's ever had on chocolate over the years it hasn't given you the feedback of when you've eaten chocolates from a manufacturer and it's tasted disgusting always all eaten bad chocolate right it doesn't give you that imagery or that memory it's giving you the positive memories because your subconscious has already decided it wants it and so it gives you your consciousness the good memories saying I want that chocolate and you get that chocolate you had no conscious control whatsoever in the process and I think that most other things that people do is is like that they are reactions to the stimuli they are not actually consciously willed controlled actions at all there may be some we don't know but from what I've picked up it seems that everyone can be manipulated the idea though is do you manipulate for good or for bad so does that make sense though the idea is no one likes the idea of them having no no such thing as free will there may be parts that is free will but majority of the time I think most people are running on automatic I agree most people are working on automatic they can be manipulated controlled you can see that in some communities where I'll tell you something about this just the other day when it comes to Craig Wright and Twitter and all rest about you can say for Craig just to say screw him around or whatever every time you say something you can have a new twitter account and say that's rubbish or whatever this article refutes what you just said blah blah blah and then link any article whatsoever or document and do it for everything refute again and again again the thing is you're not targeting the people that will click on the link and research intellectual to smart people remember all the Nigerian Prince type emails and that type of stuff they're not targeting smart people you're targeting dumb ones and so if you wanted to manipulate the vast majority running on automatic people are running on automatic though you haven't got time to click on links but you can see this I'm saying something they're refuting something here's an article that refutes what he just said that's what they'll retain they'll retain that again and again the odd smart person will every now and then go but hang on this is wrong this doesn't say anything about that at all this person will still not click on these links that refute the refutal and they'll still have it that's saying 10 of these people are saying it's refuted one person is saying no it's not and that will influence all the people following them thus we find ourselves with the bitcoin core claims about raising the maximum block size because that's exactly what they've done just to keep repeating the same nonsense and people go oh yeah that sounds I've seen those words many times oh yeah and the people that come in the last two years they believe that bitcoin is gold because they brought a nixarbon they brought a nixarbon and they said oh no it's all based on bitcoin gold isn't it no some of the posts under the social handle were unsanctioned I'd put in the text to be posted and Craig would change it slightly or add his own paragraph or sentence and some of the comments he added to my post to be posted were unsanctioned one was saying that bitcoin is based upon waydays b-money and nixarbon's bitcoin gold that's not true at all and he knows it's not true because anything that we came across we pulled the hell of the pieces analyzed every piece of it and put it back together we did that with bitcoin gold because we never read bitcoin gold never discussed it but it was mentioned just so that he can fit in the well-known crypto people said it looks like bitcoin gold and so he's forced to say he found he was forced to say oh yes it is bitcoin gold so that he wouldn't be rejected so that's a lie the other one was saying something about oh I'm very bad doing user interfaces that's why the user interface for the bitcoin client was rubbish well that was an unsanctioned as well because I'm brilliant at user interfaces and it wasn't implemented because Dave wanted us to use this WX widget system which means my awesome abilities with the resource file stuff for Windows development couldn't be used anymore and so we only had a stupid little interface and here on these changes the other system we currently got QT whatever it is QT so those are two unsanctions comments that he made that people were actually quoting so now they say I can't be involved because I'm pretty good at doing graphics and here's a quote from under the software handle saying he sucks at doing UI clearly I don't suck at the UI as well as the big gold thing saying well you know I was actually saying it was actually based upon big gold the gold thing kills me the digital gold thing kills me too so I wrote this little introductory book on bitcoin back in 2013 and it's all pure concepts because I'm not a technical guy it's got a little section on digital gold because that's hard currency it was about currency and people have somehow managed to take the analogy of bitcoin is like digital gold and they run with it to the most absurd extreme where they go gold has really high transaction costs therefore and you use gold only as a store of value therefore it's okay if bitcoin has really high transaction costs because it's only a store of value it's like no the analogy is to demonstrate the good points but you've taken the name of the analogy found the bad points of gold and now think that's actually what bitcoin is about that's just ludicrous and it's repeated all the time what's annoying is people well known in the community it's about that type of nonsense all they say all our time is a change in how it was in the beginning it's not how it is now how it is now it's broken VTC is actually broken you can't use it anymore it's not actually bitcoin the exchanges saw users the same ticket they shouldn't have done that but they did it some of the miners but it's no longer bitcoin because it cannot be used it's something else even the VTC that everyone knows was also an altcoin from my perspective because it's supposed to have this planetary civilization geodesic vertices embedded into the actual consensus mechanism not as a layer on top the usage of it may be layers on top but the core functioning of transactions all transactions are supposed to have a geotex it's not voluntary at all and until that's put in there it's not really bitcoin and that's going back right from the very beginning so even the end chain I would go back to the original bitcoin that wasn't the original bitcoin what was initially released was the preferred concept part that had a lot of our design cut out of it just to add the other bits in it took a whole year to get a network of a decent size up well it is actually working let's start adding the other bits in and then Craig refusing either to break my operational security step forward change the passwords for the so he's got new access to it through Dave and make the changes myself or just keep running and I made the decision to well my operational security is far more important than where this thing works and at least while it's running I'm still getting real world data on it but it doesn't mean that bitcoin is going to be the one that's going to be around another decade every year's time as far as I'm concerned if it doesn't have governmental incentives then no digital currency it's going to be the one for planetary civilization people running on automatic part of running on automatic is they naturally I perceive authority the perceived authority in any land is their government if they hear on the news the government is saying hey use this we're so good to do that they'll do it I'm talking about the million people here not the 10,000 and so yeah you need government incentives so that the government of the day in each land mass will go yeah use this digital currency to pay for the social service instead of using Medicare card and using 1% of your personal income tax go to Medicare here in Australia we're going to stop that but what you do is you pay it by using this cryptocurrency and 1% of that will go towards Medicare and a transition like that if you don't do that the government the perceived authorities in the land are going to say don't use this and the majority won't use it because that's how people function the idea of having a new system and people just start using it they won't use it unless a perceived authority which includes celebrities Twitter only ever took off because of celebrity endorsement there were other messaging apps at the time there was two or three really popular celebrities at the time and they endorsed Twitter and that's when it took off otherwise Twitter would not be used at the moment, it would be another messaging service this is why I think there might be a future at least in the midterm for BTC and not for any technical reasons it was as laughably clunky and broken but just because I think it's been taken over essentially by a block stream and maybe I don't know who's funding the block stream but I could see it be so controlled and controllable that it then gets the stamp of regulated and monitored public acceptance from governments even if there's superior alternatives for the general public I could at least entertain the idea that they go oh yeah Bitcoin that's that digital goal thing that costs $200 to transmit yeah I've got some money in that yeah exactly so it could be that the BTC version of Bitcoin is not what the masses the billions of people on the planet are going to use use it as a shoehorn to wedge in exactly one that can be used exactly that's what I've been trying to tell people too is that even if the BTC thing I think is tragic but it's kind of a Trojan horse once you're in cryptocurrency and once the dam's been broken now it's like oh well you actually have lots of other options because I come up from the radical libertarian bias where I don't want the governmental control I want the Monero the Zcash and the anonymized Bitcoin cash transactions like that's the options I want people to have it's probably not going to be the majority but I'm so grateful that that's out there even despite BTC taking over yeah but all these other topics of it's okay for the technically minded yeah majority of people they're not technically minded whatsoever even the technically minded aren't very good and a lot of people in the crypto industry at the moment which is a weird way of saying it because the cryptography community Bitcoin is nothing like the cryptography community post Bitcoin it's completely the new industry a lot of the pre Bitcoin cryptographers have actually have to come on board years after not immediately, a years after just to be thought of as relevant people say string theories rubbish string theories good because now my peers say string theories you've got to go with what your peers say otherwise you're ostracized and that's what's happened and the most read cryptography paper that ever existed and ever would exist is one by the Bitcoin my period has written like a high schooler could actually read it that must piss them off so much these are the ones that said can't be done, it's impossible hold my beer okay so another point and then a question so when you're talking about the am I actually answering your questions? I think so, I've been enjoying it I think there are answers in there I think it's possible if we're going long enough with cutting and pasting of your questions my answers and flipping them around you might actually get me answering your questions yeah, yeah okay so when you were talking about do people, it's maybe vanity to think that you have something like free will this is something I talk to my wife with all the time that I like the idea of free will I think it's a beautiful idea and when I introspect everyone should hate it and I think well am I choosing to this seems like I'm doing this but when I observe the external world and I observe everybody else I do not have lots of evidence to say that there is free will there so is it the case that maybe I'm an exception or there's a few individuals that are exception and we have free will or is it the people out there in the world also think that they have free will but I kind of see that they don't it comes down to personally yourself you say you got free will and nobody else has the problem is that you do something and then you see observe someone else doing exactly the same thing as you've just done and you can see oh they just do it automatically because that and that and that but if they did that automatically I don't think I did but who's telling me I've got free will it's your brain again isn't it it's your brain telling you you've got free will it won't be lying to you and if your brain is lying to you how would you know you wouldn't know because it's your brain that will be telling you whether you know or not for sure the only thing we have to go on the very compelling internal story so like if I'm thinking you know if I have a bottle of water and I think is it possible for me to choose to drink a swig now or not drink a swig now to sit down and say no it's not possible for me to choose just seems so absurd because my experience all the time is making those kind of choices there's not a good resolution here but free will is one of these really sticky philosophical problems because all of our experiences say one thing and then when we think about it it says another well there's multiple levels here one is if you're running on automatic you've got no free will if you're running on automatic you're just reacting to stimuli around you and from general all of a sudden you've got our full bladder you've got to go to the toilet you've got no control over that that's automatic response or someone say something negative obviously this to people beforehand that you're gonna have your best mate you know that's always got your back and you're gonna go always trust all rest comes to you and say right well I'm gonna tell you it's a lie but I'm gonna say it anyway and they say something really negative like you're really stuffed up and you're no good and you're hopeless at that and everyone thinks you're rubbish and it still gets you and you're gonna have the person that you really hate their guts and you know they hate your guts and they're always going to lie to you and always put you down and they're gonna go what I'm about today is a lie and then you just pat your back like you've done really well it's really great and you actually feel a little bit of warmth in your heart type thing it can't help yourself the stuff is hard why I didn't so it doesn't matter who the person is other people what they say you can manipulate anyone you can even manipulate yourself but I did this I had this before going there's I think I was experimenting with half a decade ago right like a mall big super you know where's filled malls here and and some of these books you read talk about your confidence that and public speaking or confidence of getting in front of people and practicing it and talking about how people in the room can actually tell someone's confident and strong and powerful in that because of how you know they stand and then they talk they're straight in the room in that or anyone's walking in like this here that you know that unconfident they just missed the person exactly the same person walking confidently everyone just assumes the coffin and I actually purposely like an actor tested this out in the Westfields by going down one aisle just going shuffle shop going to stores shuffling the stores and waiting for five minutes to get anyone to get their attention to see what I want to look around the French that they are clothing that right now to the second same thing they're starting coming over with a chest up top even confident top and I walk there you know and as soon as I go in there even before I'm walking in they're coming towards the door they all come in and all the rest just that the confidential bearing just changes people's reaction the idea is I read books that about how confident people stand like they pass their hands behind their back your feet about your shoulder with back and look and you can tell the confident people and I was thinking I wonder if you can do it the other way around confident people can actually act like this and they're confident and people perceive that and it's all come down to perception what if you did although around you're not feeling confident but you actually put your feet there you put your hands behind your back and you stand in the stance of confidence doesn't go into it wait a couple of minutes and after a couple of minutes you actually feel confident and people you can see by your people's facial expression towards you they're acting the same way as that so you can flip it and once you practice it a few times you can straighten the way you go into it and once you walk in a confident manner you feel confidence and people react so you can manipulate people purposefully even if you haven't got those natural attributes some people have got those natural attributes to what confidently they get that perception chucked back at them people that aren't confident can fake it and also get that and it boosts them and all of a sudden they are confident people and you know what's funny is I think this is it kind of gets at the the bastardization of the principle you are talking about is something like the secret right people what they do is they see this phenomena where they go oh I envision reality and I have changed reality or like when you are good to people there is a cosmic principle there is like a deification where now you did the good thing so now God is rewarding you by other people doing good things exactly when in reality you have actually kind of given a mechanical explanation for why that belief might actually be practical they believe that something good to someone they think oh I think something good is coming to me they are now confident exactly people perceive that they go oh do you want this here oh jeez see it's calmer back no no it's because you are acting confident exactly I was just thinking I was just writing about this in some of my notes I think this is what prayer might be because if somebody gets sick you say oh I'll send you my prayers if you think of that as like cause and effect like what does that mean you can't cure somebody's sickness by sitting and thinking about it but maybe there is a little more going on here maybe it's the case exactly when I communicate to you I am thinking about you I am empathizing with you I am trying to feel what you are going through because I care about you it's got to make you feel better so it's like in effect by sending your prayers that thing of if your belief is strong enough I hear that crap however the mechanics of it may actually work if both sides actually their belief is strong enough it actually will work on the psychological level not the actual real physical level psychological level that's what we need we live our entire world through perception your whole bitcoin tech and all this it works by people's perception of what other actors are doing I think that principle goes very deep because one of the things I am interested in in philosophy is you get into a lot of religious concepts and it's tempting to say oh religion is a bunch of bunk there is no truth to it it's all just storytelling but if you think well is there truth to be found here are people actually trying to describe phenomena that they have experienced when they talk about prayer making a difference in their life what if they are telling the truth what could the mechanism be for something like this working well then you come up with all these plausible stories it's like mechanically in practice something that seems as anti-intellectualist prayer might literally make people's lives better in the way that they describe it even if the causal mechanism is different well what I have done is to make it scientific can I actually do an experiment and see it have consistent results and I did it I had consistent results so I know it is actually working it's not the exact same as rolling a ball off of a counter and knowing where it's going to hit but you know cause and effect is there it actually can influence other people I was doing this I tasked myself to build up the Sikkim Foundation so if you have read I was an Ethamos Foundation Saga the Sikkim Foundation is supposed to be the secret foundation that controls the first which is the planetary civilization and the Bitcoin and everything else and so I tasked myself to figure out how to manipulate people so this was one of the trials to figure out okay can you by your actions change it physically I did that also online through using multiple handles at one stage we were controlling about 5-10% of the active handles on Bitcoin Talk message board when I was still on Bitcoin.org website before you got a huge community of a thousand whatever else I say there are members and then you only go a hundred or so that turn up every now and then there are only about 10 or 15 actively posting we're about 5-10% of them so every few posts it'll be one of us actually topping stuff in to manipulate the conversation or the behaviour on the message board because as you can see the environment is very toxic right it was very toxic in the assembly community you had these huge egos at least as type people from everything your computer all of a sudden you're going to have a virus on your computer you'll be very careful very smart people but in the crypto community very very similar type people very ecotistical, chip on their shoulders elitist and for this community to grow we're going to have people behaviour in a certain way to encourage people don't want people that had a good brain to be useful to stay away because there's a lot going on everyone have a good if you look at the early post on bitcoin.org you should see a lot of posts were supportive of each other even when people were wrong or didn't agree it was debating and conversational and talking as soon as I left in 2010 I suppose from 2011 onwards the conversation started being a bit more aggressive I'm amazing, I don't know but I imagine you see this transition because I'm manipulating the conversations and sending private messages to people saying some of those early guys if they've still got access to their personal messages they should actually have personal messages from the Satoshi handle telling them to tone down how they're speaking to somebody or whatever so I remember some people were told that we're speaking to you too aggressively and they were explaining this is the top of the direction we want to take the community so they might actually have messages from Satoshi actually mentioning about this manipulation that's actually happening that's so funny because now that I think about it that a polite community like that a supportive community people trying to learn is so unnatural, it's so weird that does make sense that that's something that's deliberately cultivated and successfully, you know you've had success with it now yeah, yeah, totally left so there's a possibility of bringing that back people I've talked to me about me getting involved in moderation and sending communities and stuff should I do it as myself should I create another handle and use that handle I've still got to decide about that or should I do it to completely anonymously like beforehand and try and work on re-creating the second foundation again and do all the manipulation behind the scenes right, okay so that's the question I want to ask you at the beginning which is a big part of your practical mind is seeing that humans are psychologically weak the brain and the system is weak and exploiting the ability to manipulate in order to get non-evil ends so where is it that you came up with that conception is this just you've lived in the world you've observed the world and you see that in order to really have a big impact you gotta have other people's help and if you're enlisting other people you have to manipulate them at some level I could be a real evil bastard if I decided to go down that way but I'm a product of my father's son I've seen that side of things and so a lot of things I've done in my adulthood is to stop myself doing what my father would do he was the type of guy that would say anything for you to lend him $10,000 but the moment you give him the $10,000 back you want to give him to him in the first place and so you'd never see it again and there'd be a lot of excuses why you wouldn't get it back again that type of thing so it helps to inflate things like flash cars and all the rest my parents divorced when I was like 13 years old or whatever and when I was about 15 or 16 my father was a building contractor but he was building stuff and holding onto them and whatever he asked and he had things like porches and Mercedes cars and for a few years I was around these expensive items but I also saw the attitude that went with them and so when people were affording things like was it cruises or private jet flights it doesn't impress me at all because I've actually done that type of thing but on a negative experience side of it so I'm not those things are cool but it's not something that would attract me at all I'd rather have a nice car sure but I would not put the house on hook just to be able to show off to others that I've got a flash car that psychological side of it has been snipped in the bud because I've got these previous experiences but the idea comes from all different places another one was the idea is all the villains in movies have got all the cool toys and stuff gadgets I thought what if the only way to defeat something like a Darth Vader character was to be like Darth Vader the only way to destroy a Sith Lord is to be a Sith Lord and what they do is they slaughter millions so the only way to slaughter some of that slaughtering millions is to slaughter millions yourself to get into the club and then you can take them out and all of a sudden stop it means you yourself cannot be a hairy figure because to get to that position you had to become that thing yourself I thought well that might be an interesting story but in the end maybe that needs to happen I've told you before about the prayer for work saying it's a a brinkmanship the idea is sorry to just thought oh a great guy he's crazy but it's not gone to fruition yet and if it increases enough that we're having brownouts and blackouts maybe we'll start dying because of the altruity used on these computational machines the satoshi character may end up in 5, 10 years time as the greatest villain of humankind that means I always need a plausible denulability that I'm involved at all no verbal proof here I can say I just made a really good story up just in case it goes south for me very big I don't want to wear an orange jumpsuit so it comes from the idea if you had to be a real evil bastard and manipulate everyone but it's for the betterment of everyone else so as I said before a Bond villain that's got a Robin Hood complex so that you can be real evil and manipulate and change everything but the end result is that everyone else has got their freedom but on the other side I've gone to some of the transhumanism meetups here in Sydney transhumanism is talking about how humans are evolving and changing and I talked to one person and said in 500 years time history class is going to say they teach people what the history is over that time but the most important thing which is the nations to talk about Christopher Columbus going to the Americas and stuff other nations and cultures if we've got a planetary civilization in 500 years what's the most important thing and more important than anything I reckon it'll be what was the catalyst for us to create a planetary civilization and it'll only be one or two people's names that will exist then, be the one who created the damn thing and so the idea is and I told this guy transhumanism about that and he says well what if 500 years time is actually us that it's actually reading this history go through longevity and all that we could be down a lot that might cause me a few issues but it's a possibility so something you've mentioned in your writing and in the course of this conversation is a I would call an intellectual humility and a strong aversion to elitism I think there's a lot of good reasons if you're somebody that's interested in ideas and the truth and empirically speaking those in the academy who have proven the impossibility of systems that currently exist don't actually know what they're talking about and they're just pompous no nothings for you do you do you this is kind of a weird question but again I have a purpose in mind do you approach these problems and the things you're thinking about from a position of explicit intellectual humility when you're learning something it doesn't seem to me that you're parading around like oh man I have so much information in my brain I know these things without researching you're saying you're in the trenches you're relearning things you've already learned you've got the information your brain's not working with you seems incredibly down to earth and I like the idea that the Satoshi Nakamoto is actually incredibly down to earth an anti-elitist and as you said wrote a paper a cryptographic paper the most popular one ever in a completely non-academic way a non-elitist way that everybody can understand well you could pick a say I'm more elitist than them all right I think I worded that in the Bitcoin sorry I thought these are elitist got big ego that ha that image is watch this right and I said but it's true though right because you did demonstrate that they were wrong so is that really elitist but at that time I didn't know I didn't know that at all as far as I'm aware at that time it wasn't possible to solve it's unlikely it was ever possible it was very small every step of the way until the moment it was solved it was unsolved and unsolvable all right but the the the future we're going to have if it was solved was made the effort worth it anyway all right and I might learn a few different things along the way even if I fail but the effort itself was worth it because if it was solvable people already decided if it was solvable we could have this we could have this we could do that all right well other people already know where we can take this and just try and solve it but um it was a matter of the process of solving it not solving it in the sense of okay it's unsolvable this is how they try to solve it I can't follow their way all right well what process can I follow there is no process so I try to figure out a process of solving the only thing I think of is just so a lot of it was reminiscing about all the type of stuff I've done in computers right from the 80s right from the mega 500 days comma 64 days you might remember the AIF the audio interchange file formats all the stuff in assembly language um I had to go through basically everything restudy everything I've done and hopefully my brain will figure something out and this idea of going through the triangle strips for making a 3D object triangle strips and seeing how you've got triangle lists which is lists of different triangles to make up an object or you can actually have a triangle strip which is alternating the triangles so you're reusing the vertices from before oh sorry you're actually adding one vertices and reusing the two vertices before to make a new triangle and I was going through that and then I'll go to something else and I keep going back to it and I keep going back to something else why am I really looking at this and my brain wasn't telling me what it was just making me my eyes go back to it nothing was computing at all not consciously just feeling that I keep thinking making my eyes go back to it my brain was making me look at it not telling me why I just slept in the morning I had a look at it and I was like oh if that was a hash the vertices were actually a hash of the previous one and you put the next block there and you hold the data there and then it's just like the face of the universe just saying blah blah blah blah oh shit oh it just works but you've got to put the effort in that's all it's all that's just how you link the blocks up and then if you link it up and you use prefer work and then this and then you start working through all the problems that's linked out of that data just step by step you work through all the problems and it's just a fluke that actually worked any problems that came up there was something there like a submarine you see the old submarines got valves and switches and dials and pipes and all that there had this thing you saw a problem there and you could switch dial there and you release that valve there and flip that switch there and as you saw the problems coming in, you adjust this thing and bend it and put another pipe in there and all the rest it never failed completely until you actually had anything holy shit, I think this will work but let's see if it'll work and then I'll end in two right so I only work if you're incentives because if you just do it by code it's not gonna last people are gonna be incentives and what they perceive and then you go into game theory and most game theory is again it's very academic it's not very practical alright in the sense of most people do things by what they perceive if they perceive someone's gonna do this, it doesn't matter if that person does that or does the other thing it only comes down to what their perception is they'll change their strategy and that person might perceive that change in strategy or might perceive a different strategy as a chaos this human society is but it had to be holed up to remember what people perceive and how they based upon their perception the system, the game will still work so would you say that in your process of learning and thinking kind of like with the metadata you don't really have room to have worries about whether or not you are really arrogant over confident and elitist it's just focusing on solving the problems and the rest is just idle commentary it's not possible to be elitist unless you can retain this information but Craig can be a pompous elitist type person because he can throw this shit out at a moment, I can't do that some things at times I can other times, no, not at all that's a really interesting point that when you were away I was thinking about some of the conversation that we've had and I think you were right about something so if you remember I kind of had the perspective that you don't actually need literal cryptographic proof that you're the other part of Satoshi Nakamoto because you can demonstrate intellectually conceptually if you mix the writing style with the story with the understanding with all these things it's pretty clear to me but I think that's wrong because you're correct to say that most people, the million not the 10,000 the million people they're not going to be good enough they're not going to be able to actually take the time to think through these things listen to what you're saying carefully analyze them against the evidence and I think you're right, I actually don't think people are going to believe you unless you have a cryptographic proof which puts you in a very interesting pickle here yeah, it's interesting from where Craig does I actually have some of the keys because Dave would have spread them out Craig would have his own one obviously but Dave would have given some to him on top of that so that Craig would have I would imagine that Craig would have signed to certain specific individuals to get them on board obviously the public thing that he did in mid 2016 was BS but I'd say to the others to get people to back him like to Calvin here and others he would have actually signed always going through a process that looked like he did especially for the Tulip Trust whoever is in the trustees of that I think it was on like three out of the five keys that are listed at the bottom of the Tulip Trust and it's probably more where he's got access to most of them so that he can actually sign over and say well I should have access to the funds the majority there who mind was Craig and Dave but it's from where the coin that's actually in the trust of everyone so this part I didn't quite understand either how is it that how and why how is it that he's restricted until 2020 and if it's not cryptographic like there's a signed time lock or something why would he restrict himself is he just going based on a contract that he wrote up the way that bit went is that there's only two times that's my operational security one was that the Bitcoin or domain name they were effectively saying that they're going to kick me off the project I was making them do all the public facing risk and they're finally cottoned onto that by late July or early August they're finally cottoned on that I was making them do all the public facing risk and they said well at least for the domain name I just will kick you off the project how can they kick me off my own project and they barely understand the technology because I'm having to explain to them over and over again if I stop explaining to them over and over again where they're going to take this thing it doesn't make sense I thought it is sort of kind of unfair to all the risk and so I decided to actually make the purchase is that time and also I think it was 2011 I'm not sure because I don't have any paper 2012 who knows but I'm pretty sure probably 2011 I broke it again when I actually gave them they decided to give me half the mine coin because they're going to this WNK company to try and do it in a public setting mining and research and stuff like that and they decided to give me a third they actually give me half and I said they'll send me a USB stick with my half on it but I think well that's just nuts because they still have access to the private keys I'll actually have to transfer them into my own addresses and they'll be a record of that and if I do it for my computer there may be a record of my IP being used to transfer these coins on some computer somewhere ah well in any case I got but I was getting things in through eBay to my address anyway so through the post office it was knowing that items were coming to my place so it wasn't out of the ordinary if anyone's trying to search for anything so I thought okay you can just slip in this with one of the other items so I broke the security up for the second time by giving my full name and at home address to receive this thing I was already really suspicious and it was a real real big risk I was suspicious because Craig was saying it was his idea and Dave was against it or was only going to give me 5% or 15% or 30% and he convinced me of 50% and I thought that's out of character if anything it'd be Dave coming to Craig saying we should give me an address so the heirs on back of my neck were already alert saying is this trying to set me up to have an item not an item to come to my place with all these eBay stuff coming up I could just say ah someone's obviously through the eBay system just sent it to me by mistake or whatever but at the moment I thought well if it's the other trap let's bring it and see what happens and as soon as I gave him my home address and that Craig just happened to be in the same city what's the odds on that I was communicating with people around the world what's the odds on he just happened to be in the city the northern part of the city when my hackles went right up what the hell is he actually from the city or is he from somewhere else he just happens to have moved to the city lately purely to set up a sting for me and so I was from that moment on any emails if they ever become public knowledge all my emails were stand or fish if he said I could do this I would say ah sure if that's what you want to do non-committal from then on I was non-committal of any communication so that if anyone I was assuming some three-letter agency was telling him what to write and was reading whatever it is and so I was writing it so it was non-committal as if they can't breathe and he said if they had evidence they would have knocked down my door already so you clearly need more evidence and I was making sure that whatever I say was so non-committal that they can't say I was involved and so from then on all my communications were cold or cold towards them and it's got a sage there I said you want to you want to actually meet up as you physically give it to me and I said no that's not going to happen no it must have been early 2011 or late 2010 yeah so around that time you wanted to physically come to my place or meet up and hand over this USB stick and I'm not going to meet up with them especially if someone's going to be having taking photos of us and me handing over something this is like all the bad bits of all the movies and all that I'm going to stay away from this guy there's a parking lot here why don't you meet me over in the parking lot like that no alright so I was actually getting very stressed anyone on the planet being around with the 32 assembly the people I was communicating with were from all corners of the world the odds on that one of these people being in the same city is very very small on a daily basis the main people I was talking to were in Australia this is when I saw in New Zealand, Australia here in Sydney in Germany in the UK in Belgium in Russia Romania Israel, Palestine all around the world and the other mains when I talked to you hello he's in the northern part of the city odds are very against that it may be true however from where I gathered he was mainly living outside the city and he'd only just started renting a property in the northern part of the city so what's the odds of him doing that I don't know so I didn't want to meet up with him whatsoever and then I said well I don't even want you to send it to me now alright he goes well I'll just send it to you and I said no I don't even want that now because I was just obviously something was bloody up and so I did not want any coming to my address and the one he said well now you've picked it's gone to your address no that's not even going to happen I want you to lock my half way up for for five years if we move it around now anyway obviously 3L80s are keeping an eye on addresses we can't the very few there's only a couple of exchanges not very many exchanges at the time of the US you couldn't really use it for anything except for each other you couldn't cash out it to a fair currency or anything not much even five years if it's worth something it'd be worth something there'll be an industry around it and structure we'd be able to cash out and use it and don't have to go to your day job anymore it'd be enough funds for me to actually work on stuff full time if it dies out then it dies out I've got these other projects from work out and that's why the Tulip Trust came about that was originally supposed to be for my half the Bitcoin to put in there I didn't want to know who the trust is where or where it was registered or anything like that provisable denial there's nothing on my computer that says anything about it it's only on somebody else's computer they go to jail over something that's only on other people's computer provisable denial but I don't want anything about it and I told them that if they were smart they'd do the same which annoyed them because it's worth like a dollar or something or whatever but then it was actually saying it'd be worth a bit of money and here's me telling them don't touch it, if you touch it move it, you're going to be caught right so I thought it's smart that'd also put it into a trust and this thing that came up that came up a couple of years ago or a year ago that shows a draft version of the Tulip Trust it's got like a million coins in there which I think the very first thing I started reading it and I went, oh hang on it's one lump sum, where's my half it's supposed to be a, not just one lump sum it's supposed to be this much for me it's much for creating this much for Dave but it's just one lump sum there I never saw the draft all I remember is Dave communicating with me saying, oh drafting this thing Craig's decided it's just that I put some weird stuff in it, some text in it which is that weird stuff about the tax account of whatever it is down below he says, oh I wanted to put anything weird in there and I said well just say that so if anyone breaks it it breaks the contract supposedly and won't have access so I thought well one thing I want to make sure that Craig never does at that time is to let any of his mates know who I was because he'd already done that with someone else and so I got Dave put in there to say no one's supposed to tell where the GMX account came from so if anyone mentioned where the GMX account came from the Trust is void, they no long have access to the coin, couldn't send a motive not to actually why wouldn't they have access to the coin though that's why Dave was saying it this is the legal document that's just got to follow so you were banking on a kind of contractual upholding on this everything hinged on Dave not dying and because he died it's really bad for him obviously but it's all very bad for everything else because as I said before he was my secret keeper I Dave said to Craig was almost like a brother you know Dave's got other brothers like Ira and that but Dave said to me he thought of Craig as the brother he'd never had that was always supportive of him and helpful of him and everything else and so he wouldn't do any detrimental against him and so if he ever knew Dave he stopped classic he was he's like the adult in the room type thing so that if there's any arguments he's the one that try and calm people down you had to do all the time and so it was really difficult to piss him off and I was able to do it at least a dozen times because I'd give him to have a secret and make him give his word to tell Craig and he didn't want to give anything from Craig he really pissed him off because his word is his word Dave would keep his word and so he knew things like say the Genesis block the targeting for the Genesis block is set to number one the difficulty however the little program that we were running to generate the first hash for the Genesis block was set as a target of 42 0 bits the difficulty is having 0 bits in front it was set to 42 because that's a 42 million coin life universe the life universe anything that the answer is 42 set to 42 right but if you look at the block the difficulty is still set as one so it was a special program that was made that we're running it ended up being a fluke within six days 43 0 bits came up I thought I'd prefer to keep running it until we get exactly 42 0 bits because that's what I want but I thought the odds on this happening is very very small it's supposed to run for about a month and a half, two months and it would pop this up within six days and I thought if this would pop this value up within six days if you got the curve it happened right into the start the odds on it are just as equal that the next 20 could be in three months time I don't think everyone would be running the machines flat out for three months 24 hours a day with the fans going wild trying to call them machines after three months you think maybe the algorithm is wrong and it's faulty I thought we'll just take what we've got and use that so the numbers are just given over to Craig was looking at the repository he just put them in but I don't think he realised that the target was 42 bits for the 42 million because every time they bring up they're saying maybe 21 million but there's that little thing that Craig knew about that's what Dave knew about the magic number that's sort of each block that just supposedly looks like a random number but it was never a random number Dave knew the algorithm we used I engaged to all files right from the 80s onwards maybe even beforehand had four character codes, four CCs like the WAV the WAV audio file a space WAV is the four character code WAV space and all the others are like the video and audio type formats these four character codes and I wanted a four character code but I wanted it to look like a random number right so I wanted a four character code for my Amiga days but I wanted it to look like a random number and so the idea is to get I got my name I don't know if I got Phillip W L, S, N you know, take out the vowels one of the names or whether it's like a case or a uppercase or whatever to encode that into a four character code and then do a bit of a bit of X soaring or rolling the bits left or rolling it like in such a way so it looks like a random number and that's what's used as the magic number for each block that's what's always Dave knows this he knew this I was online and going through it so at least he knows what it is and how important it is to never tell Craig about it so Craig doesn't know about this but since I've wiped everything Dave had the actual algorithm we used what I encoded which name I used how I was encoded and without access to its computers it's going to be very difficult to try and decode because I don't even have the starting of which name or letters that I used encode in the first place I did a roll right 42 bits which is actually a roll left 10 bits because it's said 2 bits who knows, one day we're going to figure it out and then you'll say oh there's my name and for hundreds of years my name is going to be 10 minutes and Craig doesn't know you need continuity all civilizations need continuity businesses used to be individuals and then over time they had continuity between ownership usually when a person died the company died with them and then the continuity they had companies start up the reason was it forward to pay for these trips overseas and all the rest but in the end you've got continuity so you've got the person in charge of the company they die, you've got something to carry on and the company carries on over time with civilizations you need a history so your institutions that survive whoever are the generations so now you've got institutions that are hundreds of years old now for a planetary civilization you also need continuity over the years and decades and generations and centuries you've got continuity thought me at least at least at the ego images so it would be my name once I forget how I bloody encoded it so I might have to try and forget how define it everyone would know it's my name being pulsed out every 10 minutes the heartbeat of planetary civilization will cease and cease and cease it means that if I can't figure it out I can restart my own coin again and re-encode my high stakes and make another magic number and kick it off again but this time it will have the planetary civilization geodesic data in it which is only 12 vertices 12 points on the planet can generate the first 20 sided dice and then the translation afterwards so from 12 values and 12 GPS coordinates you can generate all the coins for all the little triangles that will break down the entire planet into territories and at the same time having my name pulsed out every 10 minutes forever so this is another secret that Dave knew and I told him he would never tell Craig so if Craig comes and asks and steal the coin and the IP and all of this I'll be able to go I'm the one that's got the name that's pulsing out you can't carry on, turn yourself really if you're a starchy why is it my name that's pulsing out for these coming decades and centuries right but the thing is Dave wasn't supposed to die the other issues though is that it's more likely I was using my middle name James or Jamie or Jim as the name communicating with these guys for what three or four years if that's the case then well in 2012 here's there's patents that Craig hexed up with a guy called Jamie Wilson and actually applied for a patent with him 2012 and Craig knowing that from our perspective I'm the public officer for WNK to to be limited I told Dave not to make my name public it could be plausible in public even if it means putting my name in a company or trust overseas and have that company or trust as the public officer so there's that divider I don't know if he actually did that or what he did or nothing but from Craig's perspective Craig thought I was the public officer here he is in 2012 making an application for a patent with a Jamie Wilson a year later Dave dies under mysterious circumstances a few weeks later here's a Jamie Wilson in New South Wales signing over ownership of WNK to to to another company that Craig controls very effin suspicious and because Dave's dead all this other stuff all these other secrets are not accessible so I'm not very happy with Craig he'll sort of explain who's this Jamie Wilson this is other Jamie Wilson got in 2015 he applied with another patent for the paper trial before and after so all the full emails leaked the internal emails they'll see Craig communicating with a Jamie and he can turn around saying well this is the Jamie Wilson and not me I'll tell you the Bitcoin story really is in so many ways stranger this Satoshi misses rubbish that's pathetic compared to the real story what Craig was doing for Craig's version of his out trying to catch which is not Bitcoin it's just as rubbish as all these other attempts was to create an online token system so that can't be stopped by any governments to license out to online gambling sites because he's done work on online gambling areas and set them up that's his whole goal oddly enough Calvin is an online gambling guy what a surprise not it's the whole purpose that Craig was involved in the first place as soon as the tech showed to work that can be used for online gambling purposes he didn't want to put in the other tech that will actually be usable on a planetary civilization level ever the incentivization structure even through 2010 so this is two years hard yet here at this telling him again and again he was still asking questions about what would this happen or what would happen if this happened but don't you get it yet how can I walk away and try and leverage another area if I've still got a column in this it's just bloody annoying and with the changes what's happening right now it's actually concerning because from all sides with Bitcoin don't worry about big BTC they'll be mucked around by people that are speculating and training for a while yet but Bitcoin Cash is a cash version of Bitcoin with the major factions involved in that who knows what's going to happen in November it seems strange that they're going to fork fork away from Bitcoin ABC but they're also going to fork the ABC Bitcoin ABC repository this is the end chain on the rest make the adjustments off it and fork off in November but they're not they're not forking off they're the correct ones the correct ones and Bitcoin ABC is the incorrect fork even though they're forking the Bitcoin ABC repository it's just a mess have you seen too what just came out a Cobra Bitcoin character one of the co-owners of Bitcoin.org has said that he's released a Bitcoin forget what he called it a Cobra Bitcoin Cash or something like that and it's a version it's a no changes so it's a non-hard fork version with replay protection that he's claiming is backed up with it's like 8% of the hash rate so if that's true there's going to be an additional coin and he's of course going to be claiming look this is BCH we've got the replay protection you guys have forked away so he's really going to try to split the coin into three clever strategy 8% of 8% got BCC BCH has got 8% of that and he's got 8% of BCH 8% of 8% just the fact that it happened I consider it malicious it's not even a fork it's a splitting into a trident here and then you have 30% here 8% here it leaves you with 60% maybe left over give or take that's an ugly circumstance for BCH that's when you're supposed to be able to have the same hash used in multiple chains it was talked about years ago it was called merge mining oh right yeah years ago that was one of the reasons why the port number is 8333 and it's supposed to look like at 8 and then another 8 and another 8 and the idea is to have multiple chains same code same code so you've got a scripting system to make any type of transaction type you want where it's a pay your property rates to your local council but your council makes a transaction and a public key available and you encrypt your transaction and put into that specific transaction so there'll be hundreds thousands of transaction types that everyone can make their own transaction type but it all goes into one of the main chains depending on one's cash one may be identity one might be property, one might be voting or whatever it is and since they're all hashed you can combine them together a machine or see if you can make one hash that's a place for the mic just out like the miracle tree you link together with the root with multiple chains that was one of the designs to be brought in Bitcoin was a broken down pre-for-concept experiment these other ideas were put into it of course you have multiple chains depending on its purpose so people find they have multiple chains but the idea is not to split the hashing it's so inefficient pre-for-work is already inefficient by design absurdly at any stage one of these machines could switch to one of these other chains and have 75% of ownership of the hashing rate and just say no transaction is going through so 75% of the time so instead of wanting one block only one in four blocks will actually have e-transactions on average well that's just to kill that whole chain usage what a waste these people don't know what they're doing or what they're experts on it they're far more knowledgeable about it I am right now and they're allowing this to happen maybe they they can't maybe they know these problems but they don't know how to fix them or maybe they just the way the technology is you can't fix it and this is always the way it's going to go well what do you think what do you think it's going to actually happen so my guess is I don't think the code is coming out for end chain I think everything is going to be on the Bitcoin ABC but let's take the bad scenario where you do have this split into two or three is that something you think can be recovered from because now you've got malicious miners on BTC who can devote their hash right and maybe legitimately screw up one of the chains like you're talking about well even Bitmain themselves you can manipulate all chains yeah but they've got like a million they're holding a million BCH BCH well before we even go that way you've got to say do we want any of the Bitcoin chains to exist what I've told you about the TULIP trust in that it's got the coin from the coin set that Craig and Dave mined and we divvied them up so that I'd have half and they'd have half of what they mined and Craig's got access to all of it, or at least it's locked away in the trust and if he signs enough of the keys for the trust he accesses to some of the coins basically well that's why it's supposed to work come first to January 2020 that's when the time lock the lock time finishes but that's the case that he may sort of transfer the the coin into other addresses but they did that they haven't moved yet they can't just hold on to private keys that means nothing they can't just say I've deleted the private keys no, they would have had to transfer them into locks made transactions that got lock times on them and broadcast them, have them lock the chain or as hell as well they worked I don't know could you do lock times like that and the early locks I'm doing right from the start yeah maybe not, I don't know I haven't read the code for such a long time but as far as I'm aware lock time was a pretty important part of it but um yeah, so I don't know if he's got, I don't know how much stuff that's been spent, or how much of that stuff's been said to some people giving me this much money, well we're out of contract you give me the money now and I'll give you the coins and these addresses at this time, as I written contracts so if I don't do that you can take me to an actual physical court and sue me and things, so I don't know how much of the bitcoin that we're in the shell of trust has been pre-sold over the years um and there was supposed to be a a situation that even if it's used for like research development it's all fine as long as at least 100,000 is left um but again half that's supposed to be mine and a certain percentage is supposed to be Dave or Dave's state and some Craig um, at the moment he's got control of it all come first of January 2020, he's got access to whatever's left or what's physically there um I have talked to uh some some others and they've talked about, you know when I've talked about the plan for real civilisation stuff I've been working on um, the basic code for geodesic sphere and test-lating it down I've still got more work to do with it in terms of territories and stuff like that but just to write about a high functioning document to try and get some funding so I can stop my day job and actually work on it for time the geodesic sphere is a neat idea but because of my political bias I'm thinking oh that's going to be co-opt that's going to be a one world government type thing and I'm not really the whole point of a plan for civilisation is to have one world government but the government is supposed to be controlled by the people of the civilisation I just don't think that can happen I mean that's something that, you know, I they actually said about Bitcoin yeah, it's different though they said that because of the mathematics I say that because of the economic incentives at play I think when you've got government and you've got people acting in their self-interest and they have a monopoly on the use of violence it's not good to have this if you take that earth out of it you're going to see about civilisation on Mars or on Titan or on the moon how is that going to be the territory going to be controlled or broken up because this is going to work everywhere we go into the future so you can forget about the earth at the moment and say there was a place there on Mars geodesic sphere breaks up the whole year into territories and you've got a colony there and all rest very similar to the states or the city states or whatever around the planet earth a few of them were on Mars how it would be broken up and work over there once that's working you can actually put that over the earth itself and put it here as well but if we, I start by putting it over the earth you've got the same problem like you're having yourself you're thinking of the current structure on the earth and it's not going to work well it's not supposed to work exactly how it currently is I think I like this idea best if so I'm big on like I think when you get the incentives right is when you have the privatisation of things so if individuals could own planets that I think would be great because then the whole thing would be your own private property and then you could tessellate it at that worked out in the 90s someone was actually selling pieces of the plots on the moon they were actually selling it certificates that you get and you get a certificate saying you own this plot on the moon because the laws there's a word for it, I just read some of the other a few weeks ago because the laws at the time of the 60s or whatever that was written, signed by all these nations were about no nation or country no nation or company can do it or something like that he said nothing about individuals I'm going to sell this or no nation can have ownership didn't say anything about companies and so as a company they're selling them something like that, there's a loophole but of course when it comes to anything you got to be able to enforce it and there's nowhere to enforce it the same old thing is if you can break this into territories we as an animal saying we own this little bit of land around us that's just like any other animal urinating in shouldn't call us saying we're this territory, we're advanced enough so we no longer fling poo into the corners of the territory and say we own this land we actually put up steaks and all that right, and now we write it down in the ledger we can do the same thing for any planet and stuff I think from a technological perspective and from a political theory perspective if you do have, if there's no government public goods private ownership of all of the territory that's being tessellated and you don't have to and it's all for economic incentives and there's the Mars company that owns Mars oh yeah, I like it we can even pivot this and go about right, well before we've actually got a civilization on Mars, we're going to be sending robot sensors like terraformer to build stuff and we're going to have robots that have got like a couple of bulldozers that actually build our roads before we even get there and we're going to decide territories and people from here and we're going to actually put their taxes as a Mars tax into a geotext for Earth, as a Mars tax and decimate, okay I want to put some funds into there and put a road from there to there so people on Earth can actually create the cities from here and fund them I tell you presidents and stuff there are going to be all sorts of things but when it comes to the Crayon rice and Bitcoin, some people said well what about restarting the genesis block from scratch again alright and make the adjustments you were going to make beforehand one of them was that the reason why we're doing double char256 is because we wanted char512 but in 2018 they only just started talking about what algorithm they'll use for it right, I thought well we don't want to start using char256 because they had a very few years old we knew char215 was about to come in so we need some interim thing and I thought well it's a random number of random number double hash it all the cryptographers in the world would jump on it and point it and say what the hell are you doing that, obviously you're not a cryptographer this thing's a piece of crap they never said that hardly you're playing about it which I found absolutely amazing and over the years cryptographers had come and said oh it's brilliant because it fixes this issue and this issue well that wasn't the thought at the time but now you cannot not do double char256 in this case we've got char215 now so nowadays it would be a new coin using a double char215 which means talking to GN and others to say time to make new ASX and but the idea is to put the planetary civilization geodesic sphere stuff into it data-wise it's hardly anything you just need the 12 vertices and the data for them and all their other points can be generated on the fly and instead of calling it Bitcoin because it seems to ticky it'll let you be called something that's more generic that can be used by everyone like credits or something it's all science fiction movies called them credits in there I think the PR of that as Guy claims to be Satoshi has no proof that he's his own coin I don't think that's going to be something people are like oh yeah I see a big picture vision of that yeah I know there's those issues of course yeah it does it still comes down to verifiable proof and all the rest it's still even from my perspective I can just jump up to the side and go well that's all bullshit it's just a story there's no verifiable proof you just a whack job just talking obviously to people before it missbusters missbusters you got confirmed or busted can't be confirmed because I haven't got any any signable keys or anything else I can't be busted because I know that I'm the one that did it and so they in my involvement of it so someone else can't come and say oh whatever else or the other fictitious is coming out so all we're going to do is go by plausible which means putting out information like the Bitcoin origin story so people just reading it will be able to say oh this could have been how it was figured out all right all Craig can do is just pull references out that anyone else can do but they can't figure out say this is the thinking process right I wrote down the thinking process and people going through that pressure go ah this makes sense right all right which is impossible if you go to say how was the atomic bomb was figured out well you come at references of how to construct an atomic bomb yeah but how was the thinking process only people in that group know the actual thinking process and Craig was used like a gopher so I go for that so he wasn't part of the actual thinking process like a soundboard maybe type thing but wasn't the thinking process part of it but Dave and Dave and Craig could have been switched out with anyone else all with nobody and the Bitcoin technology would still be connected and put it out into public right all right well we made it we're approaching five hours film yeah have we set a record well we can just we can end it this been another great conversation thanks for appreciate it all right