 Dr. Rand welcome back taking nice beer. Yeah, good to have you again. Excellent. So I wanted it we were having you on to talk about a Segment of what you guys do at regenerative that does not include the hormone therapy It's something that we're all very interested in and we have a lot of questions but before we do I did want to ask you about some Myths around testosterone that keep popping up whenever I bring up testosterone replacement therapy I'll get messages and people will ask me about Certain things in regards to testosterone is lack of taking an entire show But there's some big ones out there like one of them is and I you still hear this one is that testosterone makes people angry or Aggressive in a negative way. So let's talk about that for a second. Okay. That's an easy one because You know the word I use with testosterone most often is leverage and leverage is everything you're doing So, you know, it's why people can't just take testosterone look like shorts and egg or for example, you still got to do the work, right? So What I will say and I won't mention What I normally mentioned in practice just because this isn't going to go places We don't get you want to get sued but you know, we've heard of certain athletes Let's say who have taken anabolic steroids and and by the way, there are some anabolic steroids like halotestin For example and guys who have taken it will go. Yeah, I know what you're talking about that have a profile That tends to lead to aggressiveness, okay? Okay, but that's not testosterone, right? That's not testosterone for the most part. Well, I should probably throw anadrol in there, but it's because of There's something that that mimics the estrogen Agonist, okay And and that's cutting to the chase. That's what it's all about. It's too much estrogen That makes you feel moody and irascible. So when guys in the gym and you see him, you know, they've gone From a super nice guy to a jerk. That's how John Mayer would say it bad. I'm really into him now You better be okay with it You know, they put on 30 pounds in three months and half of it looks like it's in their face They're holding so much water, right? Well, will you look at me? So see estrogen that does that? Bitchy, okay. So then so then theoretically Maybe part of the reason why some people report that is because they're not managing their estrogen levels very very well Doing it black market. They're taking testosterone. They're not managing their estrogen levels Maybe they're not taking their shots consistently or the right dose for them and their estrogen levels are rising So maybe they they are reporting something that they do actually feel but it's not because they're managing it proper They're not managing a problem. Absolutely. First of all testosterone is the feel-good hormone They used to use it in the 1950s for ladies, by the way, there's a big study where they well I shouldn't say a big one, but I think it was at least 50 individuals Where are they treated depression? Okay, we didn't have serotonin re reuptake inhibitors back then but they successfully treated depression in females and I say that because you know the even today people think well testosterone is for guys only right, okay? We know better than that but It's a feel-good hormone and if you see some of the guys that are doing it right in the gym Not just because they're gigantic not to just because you're gigantic you can kick someone's ass But you know they feel pretty comfortable in their skin and they're walking around They're like big bears right if they're doing it properly the guy We're talking about is like I described you know and there you can tell they're puffy and they're they're Angry for no reason and that's because their ester is out of control whether it's because they're not dosing it properly They're not dosing it at all or I think you alluded to it They're getting bootleg stuff and who knows what you're getting in that situation So they might think they're dosing themselves, but they're not but what I was gonna say earlier is you know if you're already a jerk to begin with and We can think of a particular baseball player who got in trouble for it You know and not one of my patients, but you know played volleyball with them when I was in Florida You know look some people are jerks to begin with and you give them more energy to be who they are Well, that's the leveraging effect. Was he an asshole in the volleyball court, too Was he really that guy? I've always wondered if he's really that guy or not like that because he comes off that way Everyone's everyone. Well, you know what? I mean God God bless him. You know personalities, you know, there's so much now that's What you're born with and you know still no excuse I mean you should overcome some of the things that are in aid I guess but whatever the my point is that not to pick on anybody really but just to give an example You know, it's gonna make you more of who you are so But but estrogen is different it can turn you from Dr. Jekyll into Mr. Hyde No doubt and we've all seen those guys in the gym, right? The guy I mentioned so Yeah, you got a governed estrogen. It's not testosterone that's doing that now With dihydrotestosterone, I would say there's a difference if if you don't control that and not everyone has to Matter of fact, some people have problems when they control their their conversion to excess dihydrotestosterone But I would say that tends to make it a little bit more Edgy but not necessarily irritable and I don't mean to mince words or you know get into too much semantics But there's a difference, you know, and some people go wow, I speak up at work now and I didn't before So the edginess can be a good thing But you know Erasability is what we're talking about moodiness or ass ability with excess estrogen and not to mention that the the guy in the gym doing this is Probably taking doses five to ten times higher than what a replacement therapy dose would be right bodybuilder doses are not the Same as replacement doses thus you're gonna get larger conversions to estrogen no matter what you take Yes, well not only that but there's such a huge individual variance with everybody and how they respond to these things like I'm so glad You said this because I actually didn't know that I am and my response when people would say that about testosterone I'd say listen if you're an asshole and you take testosterone You just become a bigger asshole if that's how I'd say it's not it's not the testosterone That's doing that but I didn't realize that estrogen could play a big role in that and I actually think that's actually Probably one of the more common things were these people that are taking it black market that aren't having a doctor watch it They probably are not balancing there's no and I the reason why I say that as I speak from experience That's one of the things that you guys have constantly had to manage with me is my my estrogen levels are real I'm very sensitive and so you guys have messed with my my dosing and stuff like that Several times to trying to get it to that sweet spot. So I would have never I would have never been able to do that on My own I've tried to do things like that well, but it wasn't yeah, and an estrogen a lot less moody Explains a lot right now Two things one is that one of the symptoms of low testosterone is irritability So that's I've read that and throw off your mood Yeah, and one of the symptoms of low estrogen because estrogen can be too high or too low and both of them will make you feel pretty crappy Yeah, typically in different ways, although there is some individual difference As usual in medicine for example with elevated estrogen some people it can Mess with their libido in a in a bad way some people and what you would consider a good way in other words It elevates it. So there are some differences individually, but there are some rare few that when you when you over suppress estrogen have issues with libido and erectile function along with some of the other signs and symptoms that include joint pain to a key joints So for those people, I mean there's a sweet spot I call it for estrogen about 15 to 20 peak arounds per milliliter because we find that the The free testosterone comes up a little bit because you've lowered SHBG But for someone who's sensitive To that drop and remember it's not gonna be perfect the whole time period between doses so we have to float it up a little higher and Sometimes that affects the amount of free tea and if it does negatively then we just add a little bit more of the total to get An absolute value going higher rather than a percentage But the point is yeah, we have to manage those patients a little differently because of that sweet spot concept rather than just well This has been me so you I know dr. Todd handles a lot of my my labs and I have a lot a lot of conversations with him More than I do you but this has been me. It's like finding that perfect sweet spot I'm also very sensitive to a gynecomastia or if I say that right. I don't think I'm saying that right And so if we if we don't suppress it then it spikes that up if we suppress it it goes too low Then I had joint pain So we really had to play with the aromatics and my dose like he's changed me timing of the dose is important too Because remember you've got everyone thinks it's just even tighter that you keep no you've got a just like when you eat You know a meal you're gonna have a spike in blood sugar is gonna come back down You're not gonna notice that big spike most of us The same thing happens with testosterone, but on a weekly basis. So, you know We're pretty aggressive at at our place about you know making sure we would err if we're gonna err at all on the side of Oversuppressing action because that's easy to fix and gynecomastia is not right, right? So, you know, we can just pull off, you know One one dose of one milligram of anastasol and things will change in four days That's exactly what you guys did you guys had me on two then we pulled back to one and that's been like the sweet spot for me What's up everybody? Here's the giveaway the RGB bundle the most popular bundle we have maps anabolic mass performance maps aesthetic You can get it for free, but you have to do this leave a comment below in the first 24 hours It would drop this episode Subscribe to this channel turn on notifications if you win will notify you in the comment section That's your one and then you get free access to the RGB bundle Also, we have a sale going on right now skinny guy bundle 50% off that includes all these programs and the fit mom Bundle is 50% off and that includes all these other programs Both half off if you want to take advantage click on the link at the top of the description below To get our discount one more thing in this episode. We have dr. Randon talking about peptides We put something together with him and his team for our listeners So if you're interested in peptides the science what they could do for you and you want to have it doctor Supervised go to mp peptide calm. All right. Here comes a show What's really interesting too is and not to get too far in the weeds. That's okay But you know, there's there's estradiol, which is what we're measuring estradiol sensitive Because it's precise enough to be accurate, but the others are not by the way. I think we talked about that before but Estrone is something that can be elevated and it's rare, but we've seen it because we're like hey Wait, we've got this guy nailed in terms of the sweet spot and yet we're still having problems with Gunn and Kamastia And then there's just the the ones of you. Okay. There's almost I mean, there's always gonna be an explanation We just can't figure out what it is yet, but we've made a topical serum so that you know, like tamoxifen Oh, wow, so that if someone you know is is Is is one of those guys that has to find that sweet spot. It's hard to find another right a little higher than normal and They're getting nipple sensitivity. Well, we don't want to change it systemically, but we can apply a topical Blocker. Oh, right. So it's not getting as much absorbed system. I didn't know they had a topical serum That's that's I had no idea. Yeah empower pharmacy. I think they're the first ones to come up with it That's a that's a short story. I used to work with APS And one of the guys there David Bruce transferred over to empower with Sean Norian who runs the place And they've been really good about, you know, well before we could do a lot with compounders now the regulation is really Clamped down on what you can do. It used to be what it was supposed to be, which is okay Can't figure this out. There's nothing out there that's in the right dose right combination We can tinker and make our own stuff. Got it now. It's almost Yeah, well not almost it's definitely overly regulated But they can still come up with things if they're willing to invest the money And this was one of them they came up with a topical because it makes sense for guys that have an issue And you're left with, uh, you know tinkering add infant item Or hey, let's just put out the fire and it is great to put out the fire immediately and by the way on that note If you ever experienced that Uh, a gynecomastia or you know, what we think is that in nipple sensitivity That's the the go-to a serum because the blocks the receptor gets in there and blocks it right away rather than, you know Waiting for the estrogen to dissipate to metabolize Because it's already, you know Any more further blockers the conversion from testosterone to esterine is great, but what about what's already there? Well, you get a blocker in there right away. So when Uh, when people, you know, call up and say, uh, hey, I think I'm feeling a little nipple sensitivity We'll get them on the tamoxifen typically a serum Immediately and then we can tinker with the anastasol dose, but this goes back to You know the whole idea about estrogen Uh, regulation I still don't know and and again, I'll avoid name and names here, but there's a Stanford associate professor, maybe or something has no clinical background as far as I know Uh, and then there's another trainer out there claiming that, uh, you know, you should never block estrogen Even one of my good friends, uh, although he's He's in the middle ground. I think now nelson-vergel, uh, who's a great guy Um is understanding that there there. They're definitely some Individuals who need estrogen control But one of these guys claims it's all from progesterone excess, which Makes absolutely no sense But it's leading to a lot of gynecomasty and a lot of bad haircuts that I got to fix later Or somebody's got to fix because of this idea. I don't know where it's coming from But maybe because there are some peoples when I'm getting to where they go, wait a minute I control my estrogen like I'm being told and the wheels fall off the wagon Well, it's just because we haven't found the sweet spot that we need to look for and it's not often That you run into guys like that, but it's often enough where yeah, it's definitely something we have to treat and be aware of you know what this really highlights is, uh That what you want is a place where they really pay attention to the stuff because you're gonna get testosterone from here testosterone from there But the key is figuring out what works for you as an individual and there's quite a large individual variance Between people because we are taking hormones, right? If you are on hormone therapy You're taking hormones that doesn't guarantee you're gonna feel great because you got to figure out how it works for your body And the the person that does that is your doctor the person that's working with you because there are places that okay Here's your prescription and now you're off on your own type. Well first. Let me correct something I just said I realized I said progesterone this this person from stanford mentions prolactin prolactin. That's that's not either way Not the problem. It's it's excess estrogen But to your point um Yeah, it's not so much that I mean, it's not a Gaussian curve It's more like this most people fit into this the steep area underneath the curve But there are enough Of the outliers is a better more exact way of putting it That you got to pay attention. Okay. Most people do fit into this night nice neat little area into the curve But there are a bunch of people out here that you got to go We got to change things up because of your individual that's been me It's been absolutely. I mean working with you guys has been paramount to the success I've had with hrt because I've been a headache with bouncing that out if it wasn't for you guys I would have never figured it out now. Uh, what about um, the the when people say well, well taking testosterone That's bad for your prostate. You shouldn't you shouldn't take testosterone low testosterone is better than high testosterone because of the prostate well I believe that came from a very flawed study back in I think it was 1942 where they Had three people two of whom in hindsight should have been excluded from the study That developed prostate cancer. I believe I'm I'm citing the right study But that dogma continued for what 70 80 years Bottom line is now we and that's not a good study obviously an end of three isn't an end of one certainly isn't but certainly underpowered to say the least but What we now realize is it looks like just like with breast cancer Any estrogen sensitive cancer as a matter of fact, there's been a test for a long time that's used namely for women A 216 alpha hydroxyestrone test maybe we're talking about estrones earlier those That category contains at least two that we know are bad. There's the the 16 alpha hydroxyestrone and the four hydroxyestrone that we know contribute to Estrogen sensitive cancers they activate the genes for them, okay, and in men believe it or not Don't treat the messenger guys, but we all have the genes for prostate cancer When I was going through med school. I remember in grand rounds. Someone was given a presentation. They said every man in the u.s. Today at age 82 has prostate cancer and first of all whenever you hear every Always never in medicine you go, whoa, hold the phone. What come on? Because there's always an exception, right? Well not in this case apparently Now I don't know if the numbers skewed to 81 or 83 at this point But think about that for a second now It doesn't get a lot of popular press why because the life expectancy I think today for men is 78 It's a slow-growing cancer. So the smarter doctors Urological oncologists typically will say, whoa, let's do what they call watchful waiting Let's see what happens. Let's monitor it ideally with what they call a multi parametric MRI So you're visualizing The the lesion and you can see is it close to the edge of the prostate or not? So is there a risk of metastases if it's growing quickly we might consider getting a biopsy to make sure that it's Well to see how aggressively it might be Growing based on histology, but anyway, if it's slow growing, you know, I'm gonna die or something else if you're the typical male Okay, now again, we go back to individual individual decision-making but It looks like Estrogens of the culprit to get to the answer to your question Once you have prostate cancer once those genes have been activated by one of those estrones typically Then we know that dihydrotestosterone adds fuel to the fire so You definitely want to pull back you you want to stop the conversion from testosterone into really arguably any dihydrotestosterone The problem with that is and the reason why we want to avoid cancer Duh All together in the first place is because for some people that can be a problem now on the internet It's all over the place any five alpha reductase inhibitor, which is finasteride Also knows propitia and do test right to avidart. They're in the same family Okay Those are known to effectuate erectile dysfunction in some people now on the internet It's going to look like everybody's grandmother gets it. Well, grandmother. No, but grandfather gets it Because people post the negative stuff on the internet in my practice. I've seen some people But a very small percentage affected negatively by a five alpha reductase inhibitor, but what if you're one of those people? So he definitely want to avoid it And I'm sorry if I'm getting too far off topic here, but you know 97 percent of people who are diagnosed early enough with prostate cancer Can resolve it or survive it however you want to put it So there's no excuse to really very little excuse to die of prostate cancer these days But it takes monitoring it This brings up a whole another topic about how to do so a digital rectal exam is Ridiculous, I mean, we're all athletes here, right? How many times you got to take a swing at the baseball before you're good at it? Everyone would say 10,000 swings, right? You think that Proctologists has done that or urologists, whomever it is is checking your prostate 10,000 times. I doubt it I did it, you know, maybe five times when I was, you know In residence, I said I don't want to sign up for that Yeah, no, well, and it's worthless too in the sense that unless it's grossly abnormal, which is going to reflect You know advanced cancer You're not going to pick it up with the edge of your longest finger, you know with a glove on etc So a multi parametric MRI is something that visualizes a lesion as small as is three millimeters that might be Maybe a million cells. That's nothing, but it's early enough to detect it and treat it if necessary Yeah, I hear that Doug. You don't need to be doing it every week anymore I think the confusion I think the confusion comes from when you have prostate cancer then they look at things like It changes again for sure But that's a different context, right? Like uh, like people will say oh protein activates M-tor and M-tor can drive cancer. Well, if you have cancer, you don't have cancer It's actually in what feeds cancer pretty much everything carbohydrates proteins even fats Well, you just opened up a big pandora's box with a whole thing about anti-aging and M-tor because I'm in your camp. Yeah in the sense that you know, I argue and I'm being very very general now But you know with growth hormone M-tor activation like you're talking about If you're not exercising if you're riding a desk, then it makes sense. I mean, it's like throwing a bunch of I don't know just riffing here a bunch of food on the floor Eventually the bacteria are going to take over you're going to have a mess, you know But if you're exercising Right and you're using up the extra energy the potential for things to get out of control And by the way, you need the reparative functions generative functions of M-tor then I don't see the problem as much now and we're trying to jigger it Okay, and it gets a little too complex and I won't go into too much but M-tor is Is is is the moniker we use for really two complexes M-tor complex one and M-tor complex two with what we've researched so far Yes, we do want to minimize M-tor one because of its effect on the body and making Cleaning up the mess that we've made in the kitchen accidentally dropping stuff on the floor Just the stuff that happens because we're we're using the kitchen autophagy, right? We want to activate that it keeps things in order But M-tor two it looks like which is also part of M-tor Deactivation right works the opposite it looks like so we've got to figure out a way to to tamp down on M-tor one without Tamping down M-tor two or maybe even ramping up M-torque two and M-torque two can be activated I told you I wouldn't gonna do this. So I'll stop here, but just one more statement But it's okay. That's why we have you here is to go deep If we can like use rapamycin. Yeah, this is just theory by the way guys, but current theory suggests that You can have a thousand fold decrease in M-torque one But if you can maybe combine rapamycin use with Say something that activates growth hormone To maybe a smaller fraction You can change the balance. So you still get some M-torque two activation, which we've shown Is necessary. It's a positive thing, right? While decreasing M-torque one to get the best of both worlds and we'll probably find no, we're not probably we will Definitely find I'm an eternal optimist. We'll find the right drug that does that eventually rapamycin is not ideal Rapamycin by the way is a drug that affects well ostensibly affects immune function. It's been used for like kidney transplant individuals But it looks very promising in the study of antigen because it's its effect on M-torque. I'll stop there Yeah, I think if you if you're signaling growth Pro growth factors, but you're not sending a signal to grow things like muscle and bone It's going to be used in different ways, right? So it's like those it's like when in the 80s when we told all the women to take calcium But nobody didn't eat weight-bearing exercise. So they just ended up with calcium deposits in their Arteries for example worse than that constipation all the time. Yeah, so But yeah back to the prostate. I've I've seen studies that show that low testosterone is correlated to increases in prostate cancer Sorry, that's where the starter Sorry, just Get me back and you're you're addressing really really interesting. I didn't know the bad about men M-torque. Did you know that? Yeah, no, I did not know there was two. No, yeah So that's there is a correlation between low testosterone and again, I'm using the word carefully correlation And I'll come back to that in a second between low testosterone coronary artery disease type 2 diabetes colon cancer prostate cancer and osteoporosis correlation because yeah We're dealing with the masses Correlation doesn't show cause and effect I think everybody in this room is highly unlikely Unless there's something I don't know about to have or contract any of those things Except if you live long enough prostate cancer because of what I just said I think there's ways to ameliorate that at least, you know, increase the time before we get prostate cancer But type 2 diabetes osteoporosis. How are you going to get osteoporosis when you're training like you do every day? So Yeah, there's a correlation, but is it likely and you guys know but there are also other benefits to using testosterone for obvious reasons And maximizing we're optimizing as we were talking about earlier. Uh, just quality of life quality of life Yeah, health span we call it not not just longevity, but the quality of that time So that's a very good point because I want to stop you there. So you know living till you're 90 Versus living great till you're 90. It's very different. I've known a lot of people in their 90s I'd rather live great to 87 than to barely get to 90 and be struggling for 20 years It was like our healthcare costs, uh, like the vast majority It's like the last five years of our life because you're just you're just you're not able to do anything You have to have you know caretakers and or you could be functional independent and feel good up until You know the day you die. Well, davis and claire an anti-aging guy You know, he makes the point that a lot of us don't think about too Even though it's a relatively short period We're talking about a long period where we're sort of declining into death Even, you know, we'd all like to I believe and by the way, I've never met anybody who wouldn't make that Change that trade excuse me. Yeah But You know, it can be a painful last few moments if you're in poor health You'd rather just have your heart stop ticking right just runs out of beats rather than, you know You know have a stroke and and slowly, you know melt away over a couple days or whatever It's painful and and uh, Sinclair makes that point Again, I think more to our point is 20 years of of misery is socks period I mean, why would you want to go through that and that's Hopefully motivation for certainly our audience right to to be proactive. Do you think in our lifetime We're gonna see like the 120s 130s. What do you think you think in art? You think we're we're getting there in medicine the masses. I mean because we do have right, right There's outliers, right? That's you know, what's the oldest we've seen 125 I think was it was 122. She's the oldest. Yeah, okay We had run recently 117 they tend to be gals They tend to be smaller individuals I was you know, I quote Lou Ferrigno Often enough because he was talking to a friend of mine Scott and the gym who scots like, you know 315 pounds and and Lou thought that Scott was trying to get even bigger It was given him a hard time and in any way that the upshot of it was Scott How many old guys do you know that are big? Think about that for a second guys. Yeah I don't know anybody who's huge that made it to 100 the the centenarians tend to be relatively small It's easier on the body right it makes sense. Cool And there's too few of them really to to get a great sense of what this the special sauce is for centenarians But that seems like a pretty basic one even if we don't have I don't know whatever kind of study you want to Call it, you know, look around The people that tend to live the longest are like my mom, you know, five three and 104 pounds Well, I mean when you think about like all the biohacking the anti-aging medicine that's coming out like the what we're What we're learning even on the nutrition aspect? Like do you think that we're actually extending or do you think what a lot of the stuff that we're doing is just improving quality of life? I think we're just preventing death. I don't know if it's necessarily improving quality life a whole lot What do you mean? Well, a lot of the drugs and stuff that people take now medications. Uh, they're just sick, but they're not dead You know, uh with with some of the medications. Oh, yeah, you're talking about I'm talking about like more like Optimizing stuff. Yeah, that's a whole that's a whole different. Yeah. I think it's an arguable point I think the way it was presented because yeah, I mean who's to say I mean god, I think of somebody like Stephen Hawking who's just the ultimate champion I can't even imagine being trapped in your body like that. Uh, and yet he lived to pretty ripe old age and was ostensibly in any way pretty happy Most of us would be like, hey, if I'm trapped like that put me out of my misery. Am I right? I mean So to what degree is quality of life stymie enough? I don't know the answer to that question But yeah, I think what we're finding now is Certainly, I think last year And god knows it was related to covet or not, but you know, we we lost year in terms of longevity So we haven't really made a whole lot of gains in the last Decades. Oh, we we went back a little bit. We went back by one year from what I read. Oh interesting, but For men anyway but Going forward, I think we've definitely Gained more strides. I think to your point in quality of life along the way because we found better ways, for example Just to deal with diabetes. Sure. You know, we're kind of limping along with with just insulin and now we have so many more drugs Just that's just one disease. Yeah, that's true. Right and and that's you know, what I focused on I mentioned the book I was that I finished actually finally Going forward, we've got a lot of techniques to To write the health of an individual that such you know by default you would think would Also extend their life. I mean if you've got diabetes, let's face it You know, even if it's well controlled your longevity is going to be an issue compared to the normal individual Although, you know, that brings up another can of worms What was interesting in the metform some of the metformin studies and I I'll leave this alone too but You know those that didn't have diabetes and took metformin I'll got someone to forget it now, but Anyway, controlling you let's just say that controlling your sugars period is good for you And lowering and for different mechanisms than just lowering your sugar. There's amp activation, etc. But At the end of the day if you can use this Autophagy concept I was talking about cleaning up the mess You're more likely to run better than if you don't and Certainly the implication is if you're Taking care of the kitchen cleaning up the mess is that the kitchen is going to last longer too Sorry, I went kind of round about there. Just trying to make a simple and what you mean Even simpler. You mean just having cleaner healthier cells is what you're saying Yeah, and it goes back to and david sinclair does a pretty good job of this and Not that i'm going to butcher it, but he uses a cd analogy You've got data there and and and if you don't clean up the kitchen as I like to say it You don't clean up the cell That data the dna gets corrupted and so call that the recipe for for the meals you're making in the cell When the recipe gets corrupted then you're making stuff that doesn't taste good that doesn't work well Okay, so this autophagy process goes back and cleans up the dna and writes the recipe Okay, so that things function properly And part of that also gets rid of a bad recipe. It's not the analogy is going to lose its power here But you know if you can't fix the the recipe in that cell Part of autophagy says all right. Well, they're just getting rid of the cell We're going to get a replacement cell and the beauty of that is You know think of it now to change analogies to a car if the car hasn't been tuned properly Not only does it not run itself that one cell is not running right, but it's spewing Exhaust all over the place toxic exhaust and affects the cells around it. I know we're going way off topic here guys I apologize. No, no, no, this is all good. No, it's all great conversation Now what about because you're seeing more and more women now go on testosterone replacement therapy Whereas before it was like testosterone that's not that's a man hormone that you know, why should women take that? That's going to make them turn into a man But more and more women now are going into testosterone replacement and getting I mean great results. So how important is testosterone for women? We know that as being the male hormone, but is it also very important for women? And what are their signs and symptoms of low testosterone and optimizing for women? Is it similar? It's exactly the same really Again, I mentioned the study in the 1950s when I first started practicing I had way more female Clients patients than I did men really for whatever reason and then and I thought that was going to continue And then, you know, there was a women's health initiative which got into More estrogen replacement, okay and dealing with symptoms of estrogen deficiency hot flashes night sweats And I think there were some cross talk there some some confusion because first of all the one Really for me in a way the one flaw in the study and the women's health initiative is that they used for the most part They use progest sorry Premarin As the estrogen replacement. Now, I know we're talking about testosterone, but you know, think about the the average person in the public Hormone replacement leads to stroke and cancer. You go, okay. Well that that that encompasses all the hormones No, it's estrogens and and premarin stands for pregnant Mary urine. They're extracting estrogens from Horses, okay, and roughly not quite I think it's more 45 percent. Let's call it half of that is equiline, which is that thousand times more potent on a human uterus than human estrogens like estrogal So you wonder why we were having so many issues and I think it was an increase of like Eight and ten thousand if I'm getting that right for both stroke and and estrogen sensitive cancers And the women were using this so my point is that that hormone replacement got a bad name And so women started steering away from all the hormones including testosterone, but to your point. Yeah, there are still Not too many that I meet but you know, I've got probably A unique swath that comes to my office by the time they get there But you know women who think oh no no testosterone and men too who think testosterone is for men and estrogens for women But we share the same hormones just different ratios, but what it treats is the same thing libido lack of energy um good mood Body composition changes and I harp on that one because personality can overcome the first three But body composition that's something that I don't care how hard you try And I see this over and over again You know the professional athletes the formal pros are the last ones to make it in because they like you guys know Every trick in the book to jigger in that last little bit of fat off the body and then they finally get to you know 55 or 60 they go okay screw it. I'm out of tricks. I mean I'm tired of using them all what's wrong Well, we just got to put the leverage of testosterone back in is it is it harder easier or the same to uh balance The women's hormones out when taking testosterone like so if you get a client that's a female taking testosterone Do are they harder to balance? First of all, they're more fun Uh harder to balance. Why are they more fun? Oh because they're they're a little bit more Tricky because you've got other hormones that affect Oh more fun for you because it's challenging. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because you know, you got Progesterone and estrogen that play a bigger role to some degree in females because of the The uterus and the vagina than than in a male where you're just dealing with you know an excess of estrogen or deficiency causing some We'll call them, uh, you know mood issues with females, you know, you've got these hormones. It's not just about mood Uh, you know the for example the production of the vagina is very friable So if we suffer a deficiency in in estrogen for too long, it can it can ruin a lot of things, you know I can't speak directly because I don't have a vagina. I promise But uh, despite being accused leave the jury find the defendant dr. Anne Not guilty On the playing field sometimes if I didn't you know make the victory or two comments are brutal Males are totally yeah brutal No, but um the uh The bottom line is you know, the hormone works the same for a male as it does a female Roughly 10 of the male dose is used for a female but um I don't know man It's like it's pretty easy because you just give them some testosterone and they're happy and they're tails wagging like a dog And they don't care about much else with women. They like to fine tune it I think a little bit more often enough at least in my practice and With guys I would say and this is a generalization, you know, some of the side effects Uh that are possible Aren't as noticeable. For example, we were talking about, you know, the source of prostate cancer Well, prostate enlargement is furthered by dihydrotestosterone. If you live long enough You're gonna have a scene out of uh, what was it with connes would trouble with the curve Where he's sitting there in the opening scene trying to urinate and because and having a hard time Because the prostate has grown so large the prostate surrounds the the urethra And and uh like a donut, you know, if you put it in coffee, it's gonna Swell outward but inward too and it starts to choke off the the passageway there, right So guys not going to notice that till he's probably in the 70s on average um women I think are more in tune to the possibility of acne Which is uh, again, not from testosterone directly, but a metabolite dihydrotestosterone So we have to govern that more or so with a female with a male again. I'm generalizing here Um Hair loss is a male's concern, but it's really driven by the way you chose your parents So male pattern baldness you might slow it down a little bit or I guess better put You might accelerate a little bit with exposure to dihydrotestosterone with a female Dihydrotestosterone, I mean, how many females do you know suffer from male pattern baldness? Yeah, it's very rare. Yeah, uh, so they'll notice the hair loss a little bit more So you got to be a little bit more careful in Just being aware because again, it's all fixable And that's the hard part with females is they hear it's a possibility and they go, okay, I'm punting I'm not even going to try this. Yeah. They go, whoa, whoa, whoa first of all If any of this stuff occurs and I would say it happens to maybe 20% Again, it has to do with the way you chose your parents We can go off to this and it'll all reverse Okay, so what up by the way, let's just stay for the record where they are hair loss acne Thickening the vocal cords and one of the fears that's not really justifiable is clitoral enlargement because getting back to what you said earlier We're talking about bodybuilder dosages where you've got that much exposure, right? So Sorry, you can just go into the fair. There's always one asshole Um But uh bodybuilder doses is a way different than what you guys are doing Yeah, and that's that's part of the problem is because again the internet for all its value You know, that's one of the detriments is that there's misinformation out there and it's not explained well enough But what I tell people male or female is you've got about a six month window during which You can stop and it'll all reverse whatever it is that's going on for example hair follicles Uh, they may drop a hair and they do by the way naturally But it won't get inflamed and damaged to the point where it won't regenerate a hair for at least six months So if you go, okay, I'm noticing some hair thinning. Well, you can stop and it'll all come back Or you can attack the culprit, which is the excess dihydrotestosterone, which is way more androgenic Uh, meaning having that same effect, uh on the hair follicle and the hair growth in the wrong places, etc And you you you accomplish the same thing And typically I mean it's classic, you know, I'll have explained this in the in the intro and if I get one of the 20% that comes in at the 90 day and they say, you know what? Everything's going great, but I think I'm getting some of those hairs on my chin, you know that my grandma had And let me come back to that in a second, but I'll say, oh, well remember we talked about that Don't don't panic we can go off the oh Before I can even finish the sense. Well, I'm not going to go off it. Forget that I'll just pluck it never mind. I forget I even brought it up Wait, wait, wait, or we can use a five out for a ductase inhibitor like finasteride And uh, and this will segue into some of the things we're offering, but um finasteride Is is what we call a type two inhibitor And that works for the prostate for the most part, but also for the skin and hair a bit as a good Trial because if you're going to have side effects as a male or female with things like libido or rectile function for a male You'll know it with the dose of finasteride, which has a very short half life Okay, but a stronger Five out for ductase inhibitors do test ride, which used to be called avid art And that works on type one and type two receptors And and mainly the skin is what we're looking at right and protects male or female against those things And so we we win But just a quick note about the hair if I haven't said it before but women forget men too Men and women have a hair in the same places women just typically have a lot less of it, right? And grandma had the hair on her chin if she's going to have any, you know, two or three over here when she was 30 It's just it's 70 75. She said stop. Stop giving a shit about hair And that's when you notice it but ask any female if she's got that if she's willing to admit it And if she should just like us men hair in our ears, you know I'm saying right now when you're in your early 40s, you're plucking in some of that probably about 60. You don't give a shit no more, right? You know, I and I thought I dodged that bullet. I didn't know any better But then about 38 all of a sudden just cropping up there and like where that stuff come from It's genetic and either have it or you don't yeah I have a friend a female friend who works with you guys and she got a little She started noticing a little bit of oily skin and I told the same thing. It's well, you can go off No, no, no, no I love the way I feel my body composition is great And then she managed it and now it's all good take home is that we have a fix for it And that's why we were talking before it's part of the balancing process Love my job because there's an answer for everything and I can sleep great at night knowing that We just got to get the word out so they don't suffer in silence or not even try because they go well, you know I've had actresses that go I cannot think about having extra hair or worse. I guess acne They go wait, you know, if I could just talk to him for a second, you know We could do a prophylactically meaning start with something that blocks the the conversion to the dht And and get that out of the way from the start Now, how do you speak to any concerns like some women may have in terms of like exogenous testosterone? And also they're trying to get pregnant or, you know, they're they're trying to go through that process Like is that something that, you know, maybe you can just consider later? Is this something that is It's a great question depends upon, you know, the timing obviously, you know How old they are if they're candidates for replacement therapy or not, but arguably You know getting prepared for pregnancy if you've got a shorter testosterone It's ideal to get on TRT the uterus is a muscle after all right And being in great condition prior to pregnancy I mean in Chinese medicine and I would argue in western medicine too, I would agree You know, if you do it properly you can come out better uh post pregnancy than You know before pregnancy why because Your body a female's body is is doing the best it can releasing all the right hormones to Develop the fetus and if you take advantage of that you're going along for the ride, you know You don't abuse that you don't stay up too late or don't you know work too hard or whatever why you're caring you should come out ahead But you definitely don't want to be on testosterone Once pregnant and I would argue That you want to plan ahead to be off testosterone for at least a month preferably more like three months at least So that your body Reequilibrates its hormones So that when you get pregnant, you know, you start that journey clean so to speak But in preparation for and certainly afterwards Testosterone's great. Thanks. If you need it. All right. So you guys offer a lot of other things aside from hormone replacement therapy I want to talk a little bit about peptides and some of the other products you guys offer So what are so what I knew about peptides before I met you guys were These were things that had real effects in the body But I'd see them be sold online in these kind of gray market, you know Websites and they'd sell them like research chemicals and whatever I said, you know, I don't want to mess with any of this stuff without any doctor supervision These have real effects in the body Then I met you guys and you guys do all that first off. What are peptides? Like what are they a brief history of you know How they've been found them so okay Uh, I think we can pit it on insulin Insulin is a peptide that as you know Is required not required But certainly if you have type one diabetes, it's required for treatment type two It can be an option if you get that far along Insulin is a peptide. Um, it does wonders if you have diabetes. It can be a literal lifesaver So I want to say that was the first one that we studied and we're able to make Uh and to this day, I mean it's it's it's around as a lifesaver. When when was that when did it when that come in? God, I'm terrible with history. I want to say like the 1930s, but that's a sweat. Oh, it goes that far back Well, we used to take didn't we take insulin from animals and give it to people first? Uh, probably so I didn't know it went that far back. Yeah, I'm sorry. I don't have the hard drive I've looked it up. I just don't remember remember that but I have it written down somewhere if I didn't include it in the book I I have it written down somewhere but so that was the very so that was the very first Well, there's a lot of levers to find out how to do that right to to replace insulin And so I think that led to the beginnings and I don't even think they knew in the beginning if I remember correctly that you know It was a peptide Again, I apologize. You don't remember the history, but Um, it lost favor. I want to say peptides in general not insulin But I want to say the 70s or 80s because in general peptides, which by the way are just uh, there's a formal definition And there's uh some conflicting definitions, but roughly 50 amino acids in In a group or a peptide and above that it's a protein But you know, some people refer to growth hormones at peptide and growth hormones 191 That's all it is. It's 15 amino acids. No up to 51 up to 50. So up to 50 In a particular it's just a classification and we call it whatever you want to call it. Yeah, that's interesting I didn't know that is that closely related to a protein though. I didn't I didn't Yeah, it's just it's just a shorter protein if you will right a smaller grouping of amino acids But the the upshot is you know, well the reason why they lost some favor in terms of research is because they were so so short acting Okay, and insulin is great. And of course they have some longer acting insulins that made them instantly even better But uh, some of these other purposes was like, okay Like kiss-peptin is a perfect example if you want to replace Uh endogenous production of testosterone not replaced. That's the wrong word But if you want to enhance it you can use hcg Which is a homologue of lh luteinizing hormone or you can use kiss-peptin. Well kiss-peptin Takes, you know four injections a day Because it's such a short acting peptide no one's going to do that the effectiveness forget about the efficaciousness The effectiveness is going to suck because no one's going to do that four times a day. Right, right So anyway, now we found that we can we can put some extra chains on these that improve their longevity Okay, like going from somoilin, which was one of the first it used to be called jeriff growth hormone circuitogogs Now we have longer ones Like epa morelin. Uh, well, that's a bad example cjc 1295, which is a growth hormone releasing hormone not a different mechanism Uh, that makes it even better. And then we have improvements upon that peptidoma medics and now i'm getting off a little bit again I'm sorry, but ibutamorn or mk677 Which has a really long half-life comparatively so and makes it way more effective for Getting your body to produce its own growth hormone so with peptides The cool part I think Is that and I can remember being in in medical school over at uh, or pre-med at sea sun And seeing in the physics department all over the walls all these peptides Uh, there were drug candidates and stuff and i'm thinking why is that in the physics department? Well, because really we're talking about structure I liken it to uh, do you remember you guys are way too young for tinker toys? Okay, so I don't have to explain. Yeah, think about that you can take these peptides and put them together To your heart's content in terms of your imagination Any way you want and the structure is the key because it fits You know like like just like a key into a lock a certain way depend upon the structure of those teeth Same thing with the tinker toys And so I think this is a huge area for what we'll call drug development Peptide development Right because we're going to figure out what works what what this lock The the key for this lock will work even better You know, so what are some of the biggest sense ensalin? What are some of the biggest breakthroughs that we've seen that because now And I feel like it for at least for my experience It got really popular at the same time as psalms and I feel like a lot of people lump Peptides and psalms together even though I know they're different because they got popular At least that's what I what I've experienced and seen and on the internet like everyone talking about it So a lot of people think that along those lines I think it's that well I know that why they became popular at the same time because they there's like a gray market where people can buy them as research Quote-unquote research chemicals requiring no doctor supervision No prescription and they have real effects in the body So first off psalms are different than peptides. Yeah, totally And I think, you know, it's kind of a loaded question because You know, how do you determine the asset question? I I think the reason why it's become popular is because the gym crew The gym and athletics is a great proving ground for a lot of these things because You either win or you don't it either works or it doesn't that group is is is very scrutinizing group They're very critical the explanations for why it works are sometimes Deliriously ludicrous, I mean, you know But that aside the testing ground is a good one Yeah So I think you find a lot of these things related to body composition, you know muscle strength and and performance and that's why they kind of came up together because That that area is looking for anything that'll enhance performance. So my my first experience was with the bpc 157 my buddy Jordan shallow and ben greenfield were the ones that turned me on to it when I tore my achilles and it blew my mind How effective it was and so that was my first like real introduction to it Would you consider that one of the like we were to say sense insulin What are some of the biggest breakthrough peptides right now because I know there's a whole host of them What would you say are some of the biggest groundbreaking ones? Well again? Yeah, it's arguably dependent upon what your focus is so so in the in the world of you know Sports and rehabilitation regeneration even you know that that gastric juice derivative, okay It has done wonders For and this is all anecdotal by the way. It's kind of a bummer because And this is the way it works. We don't have any Fantastic studies yet when you'll prospect perspective double-blind random placebo control a lot kind of stuff Um, but anecdotally. Yeah, like your story and so many others it works great The studies we have so far animal studies. It shows that bpc 157 Works great for repairing tendons joints Skin and really it works great with uh, well Gastric juice is duh for i bd and ibs too and you can use it locally. Yeah Well, systemically you can't poke your gut per se but you take it like a pill or you squirt in your mouth Funny you say that because yeah, you can use it orally It would only you know hit the first part of the presumably the first part of the gastrointestinal tract But systemically it's going to go through your bloodstream and hit the the lower too So people have used it for that successfully presumably again. I don't have the studies to prove nobody does But that that's one that has worked brilliantly so far. It looks like that's that's that's a great one So if you if you don't have if we don't have the studies really to prove this stuff And we're kind of in this test phase How how is it possible that you guys are allowed to prescribe it then? How can you get away with doing that if it's if we haven't got a good question? I think there's a lot of gray area there One thing we do is we just We go through pharmacies Okay, none of this research chemical stuff, which I don't even know a lot. I want to know it because we have a pharmaceutical outlet. So We'll use it and and there's a they have completely different regulations They have to be very strict with their standards. Yeah, all the material has to be tested through the parties that i'm familiar with I mean, maybe the research chemicals have third-party testing and it's just as pure. I don't know but doubt it, you know, there's a there's a triad of care manufacturer Doctor and pharmacy that that is kept intact and and and so I you know, I trust the pharmacies. I don't Again, I don't want to say anything bad, but I just you know I have a license so I need to do things so even to get into the pharmacy though I would think there would have to be some sort of research around it to know that it's safe And that it's not like there's is it that wise because we're talking about just a bunch of amino acids It's so low there's some pesticides that that will not be on the market that are not available in a pharmacy that we can talk about Like for example Uh, as far as I know, you can't get uh fallow statin 344 In a pharmacy right now and yet that one's great for the gym guys because it helps block myostatin Oh, wow. Sorry. Sorry. So agonizes. Sorry. Agonizes myostatin so that you can help build muscle tissue Uh, there are others though that have been around for a long time the thymacins thymacin, um alpha one, uh thymacin beta four Uh, Zidaxa is a brand pt 141, uh valisi. I think is the so why haven't these made it into the pharmacy? What's the well they have the ones that i'm talking about they they actually have come out as brands And now we have the generic form available in the pharmacy. So some are available Oh, okay, some or not I would say like for example, the one that's this is odd to me to your point is ibutamorin because I haven't seen that one listed as a brand anywhere and yet you can get it at Any pharmacy any compounding pharmacy that I know of And that's the peptide omemetic. I was talking about In terms of groupings the the ones that have gotten the most favor the ones that seem to be the most popular Are other gh secretogogs ibutamorin ebamorin cjc 1295 used to be uh gh rps They had gh rp 2 and 6 but as of two mays ago The fda pulled those off the market and you can't get those at a pharmacy anymore So there there's some gray area there. I yeah, I agree now Would you say that's because you know those all impact growth hormone and growth hormones? Probably like whatever one considers the fountain of youth I mean it just kind of improves everything makes everything better. Is that why from what I understand from the pharmacies explaining it to us It has to do with the bulk compounds and what's been approved To be manufactured on this particular list by a pharmacy. So Yeah, I mean again. I don't want to start anything with anybody you know government Is what it is and and and you know, there's a there's a There's a thought process that goes on there, which is to the benefit of the public but oftentimes in the details You know things go awry They want to make sure that the the public's not being poisoned right? I get it But sometimes you go there's no rhyme or reason to why they would pull for example gh rp 2 and 6 But not pull the rest or let the rest stay along with gh rp 2 and 6 So I can't Respond to that because that's not my bailiwick. That's not my field. I go with what the pharmacy tells me But yeah, sometimes you just go So I have experience with a butamoran with through you guys and uh, I mean it definitely works I would I I put on muscle with it quite Visibly I could feel it. So it's definitely doing something And but I would not want to do something like that without getting monitored By a doctor because it's making my growth hormone go up and I don't know what my insulin's doing or my blood sugar How it's responding or what else is going on? I see people taking these things and have no doctor supervision. I think that's that's crazy Well, let me back up and say I'm a registered libertarian. So, you know starting from that point I I could go I mean teach their own is my point But I but I think I wouldn't want to do it without a doctor looking at everything and I'm with you Yeah, I would choose as a Libertarian to have it done through a doctor And and and so, you know stepping forward from that statement I totally agree and and I think that's that part of I just don't want to be told to do it I guess, of course. Yeah, but I agree with you here because it can raise blood sugar And there are certain of those gh secretogogs that will raise aldosterone and cortisol I butamoron by the way doesn't raise cortisol. So it's great. Uh, there are some side effects with it Because it works through the ghrelin pathway to make it hungry. Yeah But there's things you'd want to know about and certainly if you were say Someone who had prostate cancer extant prostate cancer you're dealing with or skin cancer, you know You wouldn't want to be taking growth hormone And so we might want to well, we would just say well, you shouldn't do I be in a more if you have it If you don't have it But you're at the age where if we tested you for it the likelihood that the test will be fruitful in other words You know at 30, you know, what are you testing for malinoma for it's pretty low chance or colon cancer, whatever it is at age 50 You go That's a higher yield test. Let's test you first For some of these cancers that would respond to growth hormone And make sure you don't have it before we give it to you. Right, right You you mentioned another one called pt141. So I so I you know work with one of your associates and you know As we're talking I'm like he's telling me all these different products and compounds and peptides and he talked about this one and this is a libido boosting compound not like Viagra or psialis that you know just increase blood flow This literally Increases your libido. So so he says you want to try it. So of course, you know send me something to give this a shot It's all got excited and it's I mean, it's weird It actually is weird I looked up it has a bunch of other positive effects from it too And even like I think this is the one that did your skin can get tan from it too Well, that's initially why they developed it was for that right? Is that am I cool story? The guy I'm not gonna remember his name. I want to say it was mckay word or something like that But I just probably screwed it up, but um He was developing melana tan too, which was Uh, it works on melana courtons the system the melana cortical Yeah, and and that that's to improve your your tanning ability and the idea was For someone like, you know from english descent very fair skin or something And I think they they actually sold the patent to austria where they have a lot of English immigrants who started austria, you know With this fair skin to protect you from sun damage So you can get a tan without having to go in the sun exactly and and you know sounds sounds good But anyway, the guy who invented it used a double the dose. This is the way the story goes and I'll screw it up But you guys can look it up online and it's told somewhere Double the dose and had like an eight hour erection Which you know, you go well, that's great. I guess if you're you know in las vegas somewhere You got a lot of money to spend but Eight hours still seems like a long time. But the problem was it also made him nauseous Uh, and he was vomiting not just nauseous. He was vomiting too. So anyway, that's where he said, oh Well, this is working because it obviously also helped his libido and then they developed a product called I think it's called valisi it's a brand again going back to some of these that are already branded Uh, and they marketed it to females for some reason only But it works for guys too and it it works neurochemically not just it does help with um A rectile function, but as you said not like the nitrogoxide like not like a pte5 inhibitor like But like even uh, if you noticed, you know, uh dogs and estrus will have uh an increased lordotic curve I mean really like if you ever try it you go, how come my back is flat? It's really weird. It is really weird So it works on libido for both guys and gals and a rectile function for men It's a pretty cool treatment. It actually lasted for for me because I've tested it now a few times It's like 48 hours like I noticed it for like two days the increase in the libido for me and I use a small I use a very very small other thing at least the the article I think Katrina found some stuff on some of the positive benefits No from remember, I told you for getting pregnant and stuff That was what fascinated her. I was telling her about it She was reading up on it and she was saying there was some benefits for her trying to get pregnant from using it What would that maybe because you have more sex? No, no, no No, you're right and I'm sorry. I just I don't have the hard drive space. That's why I keep a lot of notes, but um You're correct. There's probably about a half dozen things In addition to what we've talked about whether it be an antioxidant effect or because remember it's working Uh, you know neurochemically as well as physiologically on the genitalia So there are other benefits to it for sure And this is something that you use like you like four times a month like you're on a weekend You're hanging out with your wife or girlfriend, whatever presumably you could use as much as you want Uh, you have to give yourself some lead times I recall and then typically last typically four to six hours But you know, I'd notice the facts. Yeah, like 24 48 hours. One of the things I remember is um, because I test out I want to say everything. I don't want to misspeak, but I think I've tested out anything because I gotta It's my job, right? Right. Yeah, but I can remember sitting in the passenger seat of a car and you know, pardon me You know poppin wood and go okay. This is not good It does last longer for some people than four to six hours and that could be inconvenient What is the lead time for what would you say a couple? I heard you just say one to four hours They'll the the literature says like yeah, two to four hours. I'd say half an hour Oh, okay. Yeah. That was me. That was me about 30 45 minutes. Yeah I've I've I actually felt better giving a little more lead time. Did you yeah? Yeah, yeah So I messed with it like at a half hour hour for and then when I give it like two hours of four I felt like the no nausea. No, nothing at all. I got a little flushing A little skin flushing in the in the face. I noticed the skin thing too Like I noticed like the like the normally like in the way I noticed was I was I was in the sun And you know, I obviously have been in the sun a bajillion times growing up And so I have an idea of like oh when I'm in the sun for a half hour hour I get a little bit of I got like double the color. I would normally get that's what I know People that don't want to get tan will say I can't use this as often as I'd like because It's what I think I think it's a hydroxyl Ligan for all the nerds out there. I think it's only one ligand different than the melanotan two Okay, so you do have that tanning side effect and for some You take on if you use too much melanotan or this product you take on almost a grayish look rather than a darker look I mean, I really liked it because I very it was very minimal time I had to be in the sun and I felt like I got double the benefits for the tanning Well, you know what it happens to those like where you have dark spots Sunspots, I guess they call them. They'll make those darker than ever too It's just like having more it's like having more melanin. Yeah, so now what about okay So you guys also work with oxytocin. I did not know this until recently Now this is not like pitocin that they give pregnant women. This is this is well pitocin is the actual chemical that's being released oxytocin is is You know what we're we're making to to do Something similar. So now what is it? Is it a nasal spray? Is it an injection? And how does it this is like the love bonding chemical? Yeah, I haven't yet to try it, but I I'm so one of the reasons why women will produce this is because Uh, the theory goes that it helps with the bonding to the you know, you you go through this tremendous Trauma of giving birth. Yeah, and then you've got this thing You know this baby and you got to continue taking care of it even though you're exhausted and you know, it was very painful Well, it helps you Attached to the baby and and feed it. I mean, this is just theory and who knows Along those lines. Is there a connection to? Uh, women that have that what's a what's the word I'm looking for were they autism? No, no, no where women don't want to be with their baby afterwards Is there a suppression potentially of the theories of depression? Yeah, where they that's more postpartum depression I think yeah, as it connected all the oxytocin though Like if they're not developed if they're not producing very much of it. Is there been anything around if they haven't Breastfed I should say that that activates at breastfeeding itself. I should I should have said Activates oxytocin release. So it encourages. I guess the active it encourages and you got to get it started I guess to further it But yeah, if you're autistic, apparently, uh, you don't react to oxytocin So that could happen for I guess a female who has I don't I don't know. I haven't read the research Did you know this oxytocin that you guys work with is it How does it how does this administer? Well, the the first, uh, administration was well, of course Uh, intravenous and they use it, uh, patocin I should say to to, uh, clamp off the blood supply to the, um To the uterus and you know the the placenta you want to remove the placenta and you want to stop any bleeding there, right? But for bonding, uh, they started using it nasally an intranasal spray They've tried larger doses because of the difficulty absorbing it, uh, sublingually and I found, uh, clinically that it's kind of a honestly as a crapshoot as to, you know People either, uh, you know, presumably have plenty of oxytocin and so if you add more what's the difference, right? Uh, there there is a curve to it and don't they say, well, I don't know as much difference And then there's others that go wow that made all the difference, you know My wife and I are getting along so much better or my husband and I are getting along so So yeah, I don't think it's that it's ineffective so much is that there's just some people that are short in it Like anything else, you know, so if you're deficient or whatever, you're gonna know Like the better term then then you would notice a difference and people are and people are telling you Yeah, we use this and I just feel like I'm happier more. I want to bond. I want to cuddle. I want to be more connected Wow, that's fascinating very interesting. It's in its intranasal. So it's like a spray Intranasal, I think is the most effective from what I've found but they've gotten the uh, the odt tablets Uh, to a point where they've got enough of a concentration enough strengths that you can use it that way too And people will experience benefit but I would say and maybe it's because it's faster acting I don't know but then intranasal spray tends to work the best the problem is that it's it's it's um It's harder to to keep you have to keep it refrigerated and actually you should keep it always refrigerated But the intranasal spray is a little bit more, uh, uh, fragile We'll call it. Okay. I see now back to the the growth hormone peptides and secreta gods How much do they raise growth hormone? Could you compare this to taking actual growth hormone? So like if you were to use a buta more and for example Would that be comparable to using like a you know, one or two I use for example of growth hormone? Yeah, I mean to a degree you're not you well You can compare them to answer your question technically. Yeah, so that you know, you can get your IGF one up into the 300 350s, I've seen a 460 before which you would think is physiologically impossible because To answer the question typically you're going to get the equivalent of two Sorry, three to four. I use of exogenous growth hormone. Wow. Okay But that's going to be limited by what we call the negative feedback loop because your body's producing it So you could take three four tab or capsules of ib you to mourn and your body's going to say talk to the hand I know that that it's enough you have this negative feedback loop affecting Your ability to produce more so in that way you could argue that you're staying within the natural for whatever That means because you know how I feel about that. It's natural gets sick and die one day We don't know if that's ideal or not Right, but you're going to get to what you had when you were say 20 and I consider if you don't get up into 300s That's treatment failure But to answer your question Yeah, the maximum and what you should expect using one of these secretagogues Should be the equivalent of say three or four. I use a growth hormone You're not going to get the effect of you know, a bodybuilder dose Or say an hiv treatment dose of say nine I use twice a day or something like that So I had a my mother-in-law actually used to take growth hormone and Very mild dose and they heard her husband for years. Did it absolutely love that she's always asking me about it And um, would this be something she's in her 60s was it to be something that she could take and that would be great for her Presumably yes, because as long as your pituitary is still working you should be able to Encourage it if you will to grow uh, not to grow excuse me to produce more and and what happens is the fancy word is um You you um, what is the fancy word? Well, anyway, you regenerate the The pituitary So that you can use a lesser dose with time and that was proven by dr. Richard walker a long time ago He was involved in the giraffe development the what what became some oral and and generic But That's and then you know the beauty of that too is when you go off it You're not starting at zero and waiting for your body to restart you're actually here And you know at a much higher dose not super physiologic, but super physiologic So it comes back down to whatever a 60 year old would have been producing Uh, if she stopped um, yeah, I noticed um my stuff Well, I mean all the stuff you're supposed to notice But I definitely noticed skin and nails quite a bit along with of course strength and sleep All that stuff, but it was it was a real nice mild and I've not used it a couple times the ibutomorin Well, what's You're not old enough yet But one of the cool things I enjoy about anything that raises the growth hormone levels is that you know as you get older You you desiccate right you dry out So I think you know it's estimated we're about 70 water when we're first bored and then if you make it to 80 You're about 50 water. I don't know that Uh, so some of what we attribute to muscle gain. I will tell people Is not actual muscle fibers being, you know, grown But rehydrated if you will, you know, you're putting water back in the cell where it's supposed to be If you yeah, well, uh, yeah But but so also when you get on the scale and you're measuring your body composition, that's going to be attributed to muscle Got it. Not fat, right? And so, um Anyway, it's a great way It's a very safe way to do it not only because you know, one of the arguments is that and again, I'm just going natural versus unnatural I'm not saying one's better than the other You know, you've got a more square curve with exogenous Whereas the you know, you're encouraging your pituitary to make its own because the word I was looking for is you've recruit As the gland and so it's going more along its natural cycle of And curve of of release But you can't overdose on it if that's possible now that is possible Because that's really definition of acromegaly where you know, someone has a for example a tumor on the glant and the pituitary gland It's causing you to produce too much and you get the The swollen not the swollen but the enlarged features, you know, uh, you're familiar with acromegaly. Yeah Giant That's that's no bueno. So you can overdose on it. So with jade secretagogues, you're protecting yourself against that Presumably. Wow, that's fascinating. And you guys haven't tried that one yet. Have you I have Oh, yeah, I noticed you know, I noticed on it was a deep sleep I thought my sleeping like your dreams, right? Just in general. I just know is that with ibium warren? Yes, because that's that's important to note because with some of these you you'll get a cortisol release which will not help you sleep ibium warren's you Unique in the sense that it will not help increase your production of cortisol Which is an adrenal hormone, which you know is when you're under stress So yeah, a lot of people say that about exogenous growth hormone and and those jade secretagogues in general That don't have that cortisol release to come with it. Yeah, I have sleep Yeah, I just felt that was one of that was of all the things I noticed the most actually It was like man when I take this I sleep really well Now what about the cognitive enhancing ones like I hope I'm saying this right selanke Is that one and yeah selanke and simax those those work interestingly, uh to calm you and one of the theories behind Uh cognitive dysfunction Including alzheimer's is that we spend you can overdo it you can overexcite a nerve and if there's In an excessive nmda excitation glutamate release excitation We think it damages the the the brain the nerves and so Even though you go wait a minute. This is something that's calming. It's going to make me think better Yeah, because you can overdo it and so the the simax and selanke the theory goes Helps you, you know stay more calm and and better focused so they call it a new tropic But a lot of people use it as what we call an anxiolytic something that reduces anxiety. There's also several license zebra license Um That has been shown to and by the way most of the studies have been done, uh out of russia Not that that matters, but you know the you got to find translations, right? Uh, but uh several icing has also been shown to help with alzheimer's Um, the the mechanisms with selanke and simax are different with several icing. You're actually Opening up the theory is that it's it's opening up the blood vessels and helping, you know get more flow To the brain and in the in places where it needs it. Interesting. So what's the process if somebody wants to work with You guys and work with like peptides and some of these other compounds They'd still do full blood panel They still go over, you know, what your goals are and then let's try these and let's monitor you like what does that look like that process Well, it depends upon the peptide we're talking about like I mentioned earlier if someone is, you know, my age and they say Hey, I want to do something to increase my growth hormone Fortunately, we have a product in the market now We used to have uncle blot that went off to china long story behind that after dr. Morey spent At least 38 years of his life developing it, but uh grail has developed galeri Which can detect 50 different cancers. So we might say for for ghcretogog Not at your age, but certainly again at my age where there's more likely to be cancer present Let's test you first just to be on the safe side um And yeah, um Anything we're doing is worth doing right I have been accused of over testing many a time. I've heard from patients about phlebotomists going Oh, you went to him sit down We might have to do this in two sessions because they're drawing so much blood But but why not if nothing else you're getting a baseline and it don't mean to treat medicine like an engineer would but when we're dealing with manipulating all those things it just makes it um I think it's a good idea To have that information and in the interest of being prudent also To have that information before we go further know know what we're what we're jiggering If nothing else to know whether it's working for you for example, you know Somebody who wants to improve their fertility with acg. Well, let's find out where we're starting first I mean just to give you a simple example. Go get a semen analysis Where are you? Then we'll put you on the the treatment and then see where you end up Yeah, this is why we work with you guys because I I wouldn't recommend to refer anybody to do Any exogenous hormones or work with peptides unless they're working with someone who has a lot of integrity um and who's gonna who's gonna watch all these things because they are Efficacious, you're not just taking vitamin c. You know, you're taking something that really affects hormones and chemicals in the body And without that without really measuring the baseline and then monitoring I mean you could you know, who knows it could be the person could have great results or not so good results But we don't know unless we test well, we and why guess when you can test and just to add to that too I mean and not to Counter what you said at all not really at all But it's funny you say that because you know, we treat vitamin c like it's innocuous It's not sure if you give somebody with a history of kidney stones vitamin c for example without giving them Some concurrent like in in in acid in acetyl cysteine They're gonna have a problem. So, you know, where we draw the line as to what's Supposed to be followed with a doctor and not as arguable again as registered libertarian Hey teach his own but as a doctor I would encourage you to encompass all that and we do in our practice because There is synergy there with all these things vitamin c is an important part, you know And again, not to not to counter what you said. It's just I understand your point But I got to throw in there that all these things make a difference so that if we can get our arms around as much Of it as possible. We have more that we can jigger Yeah, well our part of our motivation or the the main part of the motivation to even have this episode is We've been extremely transparent with our audience since the beginning of the show And one of the things we all agreed on too is that, you know, we're always going to promote to our our base like the big rocks You know the sleep the eating correctly exercise building muscle all that stuff comes first But then yet here we are, you know behind the scenes using peptides with you And I think we all felt like I think it's only fair to be Authentic with our audience because we've been that way since day one to share with them That we're actually doing some of this stuff and experimenting with it and have somebody like you come on who can speak to them on Who and why and why you should or shouldn't do certain things because we've been experimenting with that so that was a lot of why we wanted to do this because I don't think it's right for us to be you know utilizing some of these things and then acting like we don't No, no, we've always been open but you know back to your vitamin, you know We said about vitamin C. You know, it's funny when people ask us what vitamins they should take We always tell them get tested and see what your deficient deficient in and then supplement with that rather than throwing Everything but the kitchen sink at yourself You read the label of every supplement you'd be taking everything under the sun And I use the example with b12 that I wear out and pardon me if i'm repeating myself But you know people including my wife, you know when she was running tracks She would go to the especially if they went out drinking the night before they go to the trainer and get a b12 shot And some people as you know would swear by b12 and some people not if you've got plenty of b12 a b12 shot It's not going to do anything for you if you're short in it. Yeah, you're going to feel it One thing I can tell you everybody and remember I was a cpa before I was a doctor So I'm presumably honest and conservative Everybody I meet needs more of the b vitamins Okay, and and and d3 300 years ago life expense c was what 30 35 Okay, and you're herding sheep no stress they call them stress vitamins by the way the b vitamins Nowadays you wake up with stress you have the population sleeps with stress And so you need these b vitamins and even more to my point What happens when you take b vitamins you pee yellow green right the riboflavin passing through you Which just goes to show you it doesn't stick to you very well You need to take it more frequently and just a quick reminder for the nerds out there To convert food and usable energy the krebs cycle, right? They call the citric acid cycle now you need magnesium zinc coenzyme q10 manganese and All the b vitamins so sometimes people will feel better just by adding that to the regimen It's not innocuous man. Do you guys work with you guys work with vitamins as well, right? So absolutely. Yeah, so I mean this is like full stop You guys are looking at everything and you can work with nutrients you can work with peptides You can work with hormones really optimizing someone's quality and there's some things you can test for like you can get Vitamin D. Unfortunately, you can only test the the roadway. You can't taste that Test, you know, you can't count how many people live in the house You just have to gauge it based upon how many people are driving in and out serum levels in other words Vitamin B ditto for a lot of them Not even we're testing because nobody gets enough as I said, but magnesium we can test By testing the red blood cells and then from there You do it based upon what I learned from you, you know, what do you do for living? Are you construction or are you an accountant behind a desk? Right, you know, are you feeling a certain way? Are you after a certain goal and and then we can jigger things appropriately? I argue to some degree everyone could take beta alanine. They'd be better for it. You ever heard of beta alanine? It should be banned by, you know, water should ban it. It's definitely an unfair advantage and yet I don't think people take advantage of it But whether you're trying to use as an ergogenic aid, you know to enhance your performance Or you're just using it as an anti-aging tool because it's a conversed alkanitine It's kind of a no-brainer So some of those you can go I call them the the chinese medicine has an idea of supreme herbs and supplements things that you could take No matter what like ginseng maybe and then you have the ones where you go. We got to fix this So like you're prone to infections. We're going to up your vitamin c and glutathione precursor the nac And and we can hit bugs that way you you mentioned b12 when you just reminded me of a question that I had In fact, a friend was asking me Why take b12 injections and not just take the over-the-counter b12 pills? Panache of it, you know, really there is no reason some people like the fact that they're well for one You can do a thousand mics of a vitamin b12 once a week and by the next time, you know In a week hence when it's time to give yourself another one, you'll be above normal guaranteed never seen it otherwise So, you know, it's just I guess and for some people it's convenient You know, there'll be periods while I'll be like I'm done being a pincushion Yeah, and I'm taking all my stuff orally and then there'll be stuff where I'm done swallowing this stuff I've worn out my gi and I'll go back to whatever I can pin, you know, but the same thing pretty much Yeah, well, uh, there's a conversion it roughly a 10 fold conversion where like if I'm injecting Uh 500 milligrams of elcarnitine. Yeah, that's about five grams orally. Got it. Yeah And also I would imagine people with gut issues probably have worsening, you know, have worse absorption Rates with some of these things that I've worked with clients where Supplementing with b12 it just god, they'd have to take so much they went to the injections and it worked really well And that's because they had a lot of gut issues gut inflammation. So it made a big difference To go back to the individuality of it all Yes, that's why you really should and I'm not trying to pump up my profession or my job at all, but Whether it's your job looking over what I would call the basics, you know that you mentioned the rocks you call it And this is not trying to to to blow sunshine your way either But I mean people overlook that and and all the vitamin supplements in the world And or hormones is not going to overcome. You're not exercising properly You you're not resting properly and you're not eating properly. Those are the rocks These are the additional things or the things that leverage that that we're talking about here And I'm glad you said that because that's again, that's been our message since day one That's even why we were really hesitant to even talk about peptides Like we don't want to promote this to our audience is like this is the answer to help you do this or help you do that when You're not doing the sleep the exercise the diet So I'm glad you said that because that's a lot of like but then at the same time Here we are using these things. So I felt like we should share that with our audience But again sticking with take care of the big rocks first and then these are other levers that we can pull it But there was an article published that dr. Todd sent me right recently Where I guess there's some famous bodybuilders and I'm not up I'm not hip to the latest and greatest guys out there, but saying hey, no, here's what I'm doing So that doesn't occur so that the you know The younger more naive of the population out there isn't thinking something unrealistic. I mean really guys I mean, you know, I hate to sound like You know some of the like jamie the Curtis who I love by the way But you know, she's a big proponent of hey, here's what I look like without makeup But we need more of that because I think people are going too far With some of these things too far. Maybe it's not the right word, but their expectations are off Because they don't understand that yeah, I mean this person's using this and that and you know Or this person works for a living, you know, and or this person doesn't work for a living I should say and spends his whole time in the gym. Yeah. Yeah. Well, then you're gonna have an extra edge, right? Yeah, I think uh, you know If you if you do the main things Then you can augment and leverage I love that word leverage with modern technology science and really Improve the overall quality, especially when we talk about hormones if you're deficient That's totally it was like being deficient in nutrient supplementing what that nutrient makes is a life changer You know, I tested very low with testosterone for me, you know getting replacement was uh I mean it was a game changer for me If my testosterone levels were fine, then it would have been necessary, but it made a huge difference So especially in that case, uh, this is this can definitely be the answer if you're deficient But yeah, you got to do all those other things first So I'm really glad you said that and of course over, you know, after all you are a fitness guy at heart So yeah, one of the things we love about you. Thanks for coming on the show. No, my pleasure. That's a lot of fun I really appreciate it. Good. Always my pleasure. Thank you This one's really important and that is to Phase your training if somebody trains for a full year doing a bench press and they're always aiming for five reps If you compared that person to a person who did bench press where they did three or four weeks of five reps But then they did three or four weeks of 12 reps and then three or four weeks of let's say 15 to 20 reps and then they'll throw on some supersets At the end of that year, you're gonna see more consistent progress From the person who's moving in and out and less injury. That's another thing. You'll see less injury as well