 You can now follow me in all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button so you're notified for when my next podcast goes live. I started breaking down and crying and saying, my girl got raped, Tara got raped. I was like, what? Because she's going to ask him clearly, why didn't you stop doing what you're doing to me at night and why did you carry on? Why didn't you stop? And I told you to stop. So, the phone call happened anyway and she did ask him that and his response was just some mumble happening fast. Boom! I just grabbed him and I hit him, hit him with the back of one hand and even now I look back on it and think, wow, a baseball bat, you know, like I held it, you know, like that. When that adrenaline kicks into you, you do things you don't even know you can do but there's a proper baseball bat full size and I've grabbed him by one hand and I'm hitting him like that and then I was just in my house thinking, fuck man. This looks mad. There's white tent going up. There's a lot of police, fuck. This guy hasn't moved from there, so what the fuck's going on there? When I saw that murder board go up, I weren't lying to my parents, I was thinking, fuck, you know, this is serious. I mean, I've done a few things in my past, had a few fights and all them type of things, you know. When you're with your boys and you're out, then you're from where, where from, you know. But fuck, this is, yeah, it's reached the top of the top this, isn't it? This is like 25 to life stuff. Serial beast. Proper beast, so it kind of gave me a satisfaction of what I had done as in like that. Because did you doubt it? I did doubt myself. Maybe it was innocent. Yes, I did. 100% I doubted it. If, but maybe. Yeah. Could you be lying? Boom, we're on. Today's guest, we've got awful. How are you, bro? Get yourself off. Yeah. It's fucking roasting down here. Yeah, it's roasting, man. How are you, brother? I'm all right, brother. Thank you for having me on, man. Yeah, thanks for coming. We've been trying to get it happening for the last few weeks. Fascinating story. I watched your story on LadBible. Life sentence for murdering the guy who raped your best friend's misses. Yeah. I don't condone violence, but I'll congratulate you on that. Because I think any man, those sort of people need put down, but it's a difficult one, especially in that situation. But you were on the 19-minute heart, and the kinder took your life away. Yeah. And this is the kinder stuff we'll get into. But first and foremost, how are you? I'm all right. I'm all right. I'm happy to be out. You know, obviously, I've done a few things since I got out. I'm not exactly where I want to be yet, but obviously it's a slow process rebuilding my life back in it. So one thing at a time, you know. Before we touch on everything, I'll always go back to the start of my guest. Get a bit of understanding about you, how you grew up, how it all began. Mm-hmm. So basically, I grew up in North London with Green to start off with. Tottenham for the middle part, and then Frenzy Park. And then at 19 years old, I was gone. Gone. Life sentence. How about you at school? I was all right, you know. But say that I have to be honest with you, the teachers were just to say, look, this boy, this guy, he's brilliant with class work. Academically, he's good. But outside the class, it seems like a problem. But what it was with me is just that I didn't let people take advantage of me or try and bully me and stuff like that because I went to a school called EBD School, like Emotional Behavioral Difficulties. Yeah. And it wasn't part of the mainstream school system. It was set up by a local government, you know, for kids who had been kicked out of maybe primary school and stuff like that for their behavior problems. And maybe some kids with some special needs and stuff that were maybe in the care system, they would go to the school. So at the age of like 13, 14, they transitioned me from that EBD school back into a mainstream school. So I was there from that age up until 16. But it's strange because I wanted to finish and I wanted to be successful. But like the teacher said, outside of the classroom, it seems like problems were happening for me because people were challenging me, you know? I was from Green and then I'm in like a school called Highgate Wood. So that's Hornsie. And then like you had Hornsie people that go there, Frenzy Park people and people from that area. And I'm from the other area. So a strange face to certain boys. They were like, oh, who's this? And I'm a confident boy. I always hold my head high, you know? I don't look down from anybody, you know? Like from a crowd of people or anything like that. And I didn't like that. So they tried to bully me a little bit and it just didn't work. So I ended up getting into some problems with these boys, you know? Boys with the boys, whatever little settlers and, you know, straighteners and stuff like that. And that was the end of my schooling at 16. But I've done my pre-mox. So I was supposed to be coming up for the GCSEs, but I missed that on the GCSEs. And after that, with most people from where I'm from and I think other areas as well, I've heard that these places called Units. So they would send you to these places to finish up maybe your NRA. And if certain people know what NRA is, it's National Record of Achievement. So when I was in school, I don't know about you. Do you remember your NRA? Or did it give you something else? GCSEs, I think you had that even set me. GCSEs, okay. I thought I was going about football. Yeah. I'll flip them off. I've got a chance, you know, to do a few things after I've got kicked out like computer skills and, you know, like finish up my maths in English and make sure I've got the best maths in English and stuff like that and just ready me for, you know, employment and stuff like that at 16, innit? So after that, yeah, I went and got a job working in a factory for Secure Record. Like your slave labor, man, just loading up them trailers with parcels and stuff like that for silly stupid cheap money. You know what I mean? So, yeah, and then shit happens. Yeah, but that was a job, man, like fucking out and trying, do you know what I mean? It's easy to take the easy way out and try and do the bad stuff. Yeah. What about parents? My parents, my mum was always there, brought me up, apart from when my mum put me in care. My dad weren't around, never. I've got a stepdad. That's my little sister's dad. I've got two sisters and I'm the only boy in my family, you know? So, yeah, my little sister's dad was kind of around partially. You know, he kind of still is nowadays, but I always knew that's not my dad, you know what I mean? That's my little sister's dad, yeah. Do you think that affects your grown up? Because every boy that I have on was kind of that father figure's missing. Yeah, I think it did have an effect to me, because being the boy in my family, you know, my mum and my two sisters, it made me the little man. They get me of the big man of the family, understand? So anything, manly, I'll probably put in that position from young, that responsibility of look after the females in your family and have manners and respect for the females, and stuff like that. So I think it affected me like that and made me more, I think, defensive over my mum and my sisters and stuff like that. I remember my mum always tells people the story about when I was a little boy, about four or five or something like that. Some guy that used to borrow all the time and come to a house drunk, knock the door one time and my mum opened the door to tell him to go away, fuck off, basically, and I pushed my mum out the way and gone, leave my mum alone, you know what I mean? And I'm only a little thing, but, you know? You've always had that protection instinct from a young age to a protective female. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's a good thing you're having, Green, don't you? Yeah, it is. And if I go back to the schooling, I actually got kicked out of that school because some boy threatened to slap my little sister, so I went and challenged him and said, what's he going on? And then he weren't having any thought he was tough, had a fight with him, pushed him, he fell down in a foam bush and the foam bush lacerate cut up his ear and his parents called the police and I ended up in court for that and they had me on like an ABH charge or something like that and I was thinking, what? That's just a fight, you know what I mean? A simple fight with boys in school and then, you know what I mean? I'm in court now, you know what I mean? And the judge is threatening me like, if you're back in front of me next time bring your toothbrush and that was how I did it, magistrates. Yeah, never forget that. So yeah, that's how my schooling ended, me defending my little sister. What happened after the security call job? After that, that's when all the madness starts, you know? Because I had a best friend at the time, he had his girlfriend, I had my girlfriend, we used to knock about with each other, you know, go places, party with each other, go gym, you know, do normal things, you know what I mean? Young boys do at our age, you know? And yeah, so that security call job just had me few and far between and then I cut it out of my life because I thought this is just shit money and then I wanted to go to university and be a Formula One mechanic. So I was looking at all these prospectors and stuff like that and looking into getting a uni loan and stuff like that, you know? But I wasn't that proactive on it. You know, I was just floating with it, you know, taking each day as it come but that was my intention. But around that time, I was just kind of unemployed, really. So, yeah, then my code comes to me one day and says, yo, bro, I want to talk to you after a long while, I ain't seen him, you know? So, you know, the rest from there, man, yeah. So my life was kind of mad, it's like school and little employment and then away. Yeah, must have a lot of your youth. Yeah, yeah, normal things I should have been doing like normal kids, I didn't get a chance at it, you know? Yeah, so talk me through that night, then, when your best friend's message gets raped, who's going to get the guy, attack him, kill him and then your life changes from there. Yes, man, because me and my boy, like I said, we knocked about most of the time together and then there would be periods of time I wouldn't see him, you know, like for a few days. They only be a few days, two or three maximum and they'd call me, you know? They'd be like, oh, yeah, well, I've been doing this while I've been doing that. But yeah, I put a slap, boom. And then that's it, be carrying on from there. But I didn't see him for this time for about two weeks. And I'm thinking, oh, this boy disappeared to you, you know? I called him a few times and he answered his phone and then called me back. So, you know, it's when you're, it's your boy, you're right. And man, you're thinking what's going on in it. You've got your suspicions, you know? So I'm thinking, I hope all the best. You know what I mean? Hope he's all right. And then out of the blue, he calls me one night. And then I'm at home with my girlfriend and he says, yeah, I'm coming to your house in about 10 minutes, 15 minutes meet me downstairs. So I was like, all right, cool. Jumped out, got dressed, you know? And he went downstairs, got in his car. And then, yeah. And then I could tell something went right with him because then I was buzzing like, wow, wow, wow, I've gone for a long time. No, see, he was like, hmm, yeah, like, not really bothered there. Come, we're going to go up the road and talk. I was thinking, oh, this is a bit strange as well. Why are we going up the road to talk? Like, let me just usually sit outside my house in the car and talk, you know? So we've driven up the road to one estate. And yeah, he just started breaking down and crying and saying, my girl got raped. Tara got raped. He's like, what? I couldn't, you know what I mean? Take it in fully properly because it's not every day. I hear that. It's the first time in my life I've actually heard that. You know what I mean? From somebody so close to me. You know what I mean? So I'm like, wow, what do you mean? So I said, how, how, what? Some guy dragged her off the road. What the fuck? And he's like, no, well, me and Tara weren't talking for a little while. And you know what I mean? So just a bit quiet between me and her. But it's not like we broke up on that. And but obviously while we weren't talking, what she said to me is, um, she's gone round to one of her friends. I asked this guy, you know, he's a friend and they're going down to his yard for a little drink up. She confided in him a little bit about relationships and stuff like that because he's a bit older as well. He was giving her advice on what to do but her boyfriend had to patch things up and whatever. Yeah. So, um, she went and he's asked for a drink. His brother was there. Other people were there. And then that one occasion and another occasion she went round to have a drink up in this social gathering in his house. On that second time around or whatever time around it was, I don't know how many times she went to the house, honestly, you know, but I know she went there a few times and come back because they had that firm relationship. She said that. The guy was like, oh, come me. Talk about your private business away from everybody else. You know what I mean? In the bedroom because, you know what I mean? Take your drink. Let's go. She went off in the bedroom. She closed the door. Then he just jumped on her and demanded sex. And she was like, no, get off of me. Get off of me. You know, I've got a boyfriend and he was like, I don't give a fuck about your boyfriend. I'm a bad man. I'm a gangster. I don't care. I'll tell him that I'm fucking you and stuff like that. And she said, I was so scared. I just let him do what he wanted to do and just hope they would have been over quickly. But he raped me and I was like, fuck. So she told her mom or police or anything like that. She's like, nah, she don't want to because she's scared to do that. I'm like, at the time I didn't understand but I'm processing things fast in my head. Like, what? Okay, cool. What's the next thing then? All right then. So what's happening? What are you doing about it? Oh, well, she's got his number and what I plan to do is make her call him and say, look, can meet me somewhere later and then we just go and scare him off. And scare him off? All right, cool. That's the plan, yeah? All right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe I might smash up his car. He said, I might even break his knee or something like that but this guy is going to leave Tara alone from tonight. All right, cool. But he said to me, look, you know, I've got a bat in my car. In your flat, the boy downstairs who lives downstairs from you you can go to his ass and get about, you know, this one in there, you know what I mean? It's my neighbor over here. We know there's a bat downstairs and he's out. So all right, cool. So I was like, all right, who is this guy? You know what I mean? Give me some more information. Who is he? Where's he from and stuff like that? And it was very minimal, the information about where he was from it. He was local to the North London area. And apparently he was calling himself a gangster to Tara saying that he's got a lot of people underneath him that work for him and, you know, run up and down road for him and, you know, he's a powerful man. So all this stuff he was feeding into, he was feeding into our head. She's just fed back to him and he's feeding it to me. So I'm like, okay, go and offer this information. This guy sounds like, you know, like he's real confident. And, you know, like the age of him sounds like he's about 30, 35, 36 or something like that. I'm thinking, okay, you can't really approach this too lightly because, you know, you might be walking into a shit storm there. This guy is really our gangster and our bad man. You know what I mean? And you could have anything with him. You could have his gun. You could have a sword. You could have his mates. You know what I mean? I have tools or whatever. You know? So, like, then we need to know what we're doing when we're getting there. So, I'm going along with him to his ass. She's made the phone call to him to say, look, oh, let me hear my boyfriend talking again. Just wondering if he can come see me later and we can have a chat. But a key moment of that conversation was with my co-defendant before, obviously, the phone call. He said to me, ask him why he done that to you that night and ask him, why didn't he stop because I want to hear what he's got to say. And that for me was very important, James, because I'm thinking to myself, this guy has to answer now and I'm going to know whether it's something dodgy going on or, you know, it's real because she's going to ask him clearly why didn't you stop doing what you're doing to me that night and why did you carry on, why didn't you stop and I told you to stop. So the phone call happened anyway and she did ask him that and his response was just to mumble that I could never, ever, ever for my life understand. But it wasn't a clear communication of what are you talking about. You know, because he understood everything else he was saying, it's clear English he's speaking, you understand, and he understood it. But when it come to her asking him that question, he seemed to mumble and I didn't have no answer mumble So I was like, what? I didn't say that, obviously in my head I'm thinking because it could be being quiet, isn't it? She's on the phone and we're airing in. Anyway, so that was all right, cool. This guy's guilty, isn't it? I'm going to go there, approach him and see what happened, so driven back down to my house and the plan was there's a bus stop outside of my house. If we pull up at that bus stop we wait in the phone box, it's a few yards up and then when he pulls up, we come out and that's it, approach him and say, yo wait, you rung and blah, blah, blah that's all good in theory though, isn't it? But in reality, we know things don't go like that so when we've actually come out of the phone box when he's come to get her, he's seen us coming he's turned around and he's grabbed Tara straight away, you know, like to show them so automatically we're about two, three steps away from him, that close you know, and it's all happening fast, boom I just grabbed him and I hit him hit him with the back of one hand and even now I look back on it and think wow, a baseball bat, you know, like when that adrenaline kicks into you you do things you don't even know you can do but it's a proper baseball bat, full size and I've grabbed him by one hand and I'm hitting him like that and my Cody's doing the same thing on the other side just to get him off of Tara, you know she's screaming, she managed to get off get out of his grip, she's run back into probably my flats but I know she didn't know anyway but I'm not knowing at the time because now this man's trying to get the bat off of me he's trying to come for me but I'm not having that, I'm taking back steps and I'm swinging and I'm swinging and I'm swinging his back, just keep hitting him around his head area, neck area, you know just keep hitting him until he just dropped on the floor on one knee and then I run off, but while I was hitting him I could just say smash, smash, smash, smash glass white but isn't too after I realised my cold defending was just smashing up the car you know and then I said I was like come, let's go run off up the road, drop the bats in some bins in some estate went up the road come back down went into my flat and watched the whole thing out of my window basically from my flat because it overlooked the whole thing on the road and then I was just in my house thinking fuck man, this looks mad it's white tent going up there's a lot of police, fuck this guy hasn't moved from there so what the fuck's going on there man you know and they were there for hours and hours and hours and hours I was just thinking fuck you know man, this is looking serious man, you know what I mean this is more than just approach the fucking rapist guy and give him you know what I mean, a scare off you know what I mean, or hit him in his fucking legs, this is looking fucking serious I was just thinking fuck this is all on me because I know you know what I mean, what was going on he's trying to get the better for me and I've probably done most of the hitting but I don't, what the fuck there's loads of shit going on so believe it or not, I got down on my knees and I prayed my girlfriend's going what's going on, what's going on I'm trying my best not to tell her what the fuck happened, I've made up some tired excuse about, ah we had a bit of a scrap with some boys down the road in Rowan's bone valley and that was about it but she's asking questions why is Tara like that in the front room she came in and she was in a bit of a but I'm trying to avoid her, you know what I mean so my coldies going in there with her as well and he's sitting down and he's trying to comfort her and what not and then my girl's just like why are you praying for her, just leave me alone for a second I've got to do what I've got to do and you know it's just it's mad hectic, then times my mum worked in a bus garage as a cleaning supervisor in East London and she was used to come back but like late about like maybe one to two o'clock in the morning so then I start looking at my thing my watching you fucking know and my mum's coming back saying this is mad because she couldn't know what's all these people doing in my ass it's after hours and you know just be a shit going from my head and I keep popping out my front door to look out the window and come back and fucking know man and it just went on for hours and hours and hours and then the tent just stayed there and then the ambulance left you know I was thinking fuck what's going to happen to that man it wasn't until days days later I was seeing a murder board got crime stoppers murder board and posters go up asking do you know this man he goes under two aliases and he was murdered, any information they give the thousand pound reward or whatever it is and I'm thinking fuck she's fucking serious so obviously me and my Cody get on the phone talking telling him about this and he's like well fuck you can't be together for a while mate I mean you stay over there, stay over there and it lived about half an hour away from me I was like alright cool I was it I just carried on as normal man I tried to anyway but it was just all my conscious you know I mean this fucking thing is serious murder what the fuck and I didn't know what to do you know I mean it's not like I've done something like that before and I'm professional you know I mean it's right on my doorstep as well James I'm thinking fuck you know and everyone's asking questions and that crossing questions and I'm just acting like I don't know everyone else like oh yeah yeah that's strange yeah what the fuck I mean and um about a week after that across the road from my house I could see the police watching me from above the shops and I told my co-defendant he thought I was being paranoid I said nah man they're watching us I see the curtain move a small camera they're watching us but at my head I'm thinking why haven't they come for me yet they're watching me why haven't they come for me what the fuck's going on man what the fuck put the bats in the bin up the road did they find the bats did they find the prints what the fuck at a certain stage James I was thinking fuck it if you're not coming for me just hurry up and come stop torturing me man you know what I mean thinking why are you coming or not you know and they did a door to door they come even to my door and asked me where I was that night gave them my advice that I was up the road they've come back I've seen the tent and all that thank you very much I went on their way and I was thinking fuck you know did they know that I'm blatantly lying or that it's why are they longing this out for but it wasn't too after the interview you know police interview and that I've realised and they've come out of it that there was um some crack addicts from around our area who saw us on that night he was in the opposite phone box track they come into our phone box and um make a phone call and I told him to fuck off I said look move and then he was like nah I need to make a phone call it's important it's important I have to call my behaviour man about something tomorrow blah blah blah and I was like nah go and have a phone box he was like nah it doesn't take cards no sorry it takes cards it doesn't take coin I need to use this one this can't we're not going away but I was like fucking I looked him in his face and I was like move and then he looked down in a phone box this brave cracker saw the baseball bats and he said to me be careful you two don't get a life sentence you know and I was like fucking hell when he said that that night you know what I mean so obviously in the interview you know what I mean when he's come out that this person they've got a witness that try to use the phone box obviously I know oh it's him fucking hell so when did you find out it was murdered it was dead um when that thing went up and the yellow murder boards went up right outside my ass I was thinking fuck this guy's actually fucking dead I think it was about six days later or something like that I was thinking wow you know what I mean it hit me I was like wow you know because in my head I'm still trying to balance up whether he absolutely 100% was wrong but in my heart something said he was because of the actions as well why would he see two people coming towards you and grab the girl you're looking to pick up you know so you know other things come out after as well about him but when I saw that murder board go up I weren't lying to him I was thinking fuck you know this is serious I had a few fights and all them type of things you know and you're with your boys and you're out then you're from where we're from you know but fuck this is yeah it's reached the top of the top this and this is like 25 to life stuff like this ain't a joke you know at 19 know that how long did it take for them to catch you about a month and a half could be two months a month off two months yeah about eight weeks together they did a long old investigation did you think about giving yourself up or did you just fuck it I'm on the right target you know what certain times I thought about it I thought all we got to do me Makodi and Tara is go to the police and tell them the story and be like listen this is what happened and obviously we just went out to approach him and say look stay away from her maybe our intention was maybe to be a bit aggressive you know maybe I don't know man smashing me in his kneecap or something like that you know I don't know how far we were doing but we weren't looking to go as far as murder you know what I mean so yeah did you have a question obviously with the girl Tara as well did you need that confirmation when you report them cause listen not all girls are bad but because maybe the guy the relationship breaks up the guy finds out maybe sleep with something the girl shouts rape did you have a question that and you mean that maybe the guy never done it is that why you needed that phone call to confirm that confirmation yeah because to me it seems a bit I've never heard of nothing like that but obviously being that young obviously at the time my head wasn't into investigating cases like that what type of rape cases there are where you know I mean there's rape cases where a man and a woman have been married for years 10, 20, 30 years but as soon as that woman they've got 20 I'm sorry that's 20 kids they've got kids together and stuff but if a woman says no to a man her boyfriend whoever it is no means no innit if any human says no to somebody else touching them sexually no means no so from you pass that it's rape innit that's what it is innit somebody doesn't want somebody else to touch them like that or enter into them as a woman you know that's rape innit so regardless whether or not she was giving him consensual maybe at the beginning and then changed their mind which some people think and because obviously everyone's got their conspiracy about it their conspiracy theory about it you know and the only people who really really will ever know the 100% truth is Tara and the deceased man you know but obviously other things come out in the trial and other things before even the trial come about him and his character and his behaviour that added more evidence to him being announced a pedophile rabist how was it going through the trial once you get caught in remand like are you thinking I'm fucked 19 year old black kid from London like criminal record from the past you've got all those stories you're trying to help save your friends' misses and you thinking they ain't going to believe me here you know what I'm thinking that I'm fucked I'm fucked and also the race thing coming to it as well but our barristers were careful about how they selected the jury there was obviously a Somalian man in there an Asian woman in there tried to put a bit of colour in there but I still felt like I'm in the obey as a black boy fuck you know what I mean this is hard but apart from the race this thing about it is the pressure of bringing up my old little things I had my little school fight remember I told you about that they brought that up anything that I'd done bad in the past so maybe you know I got an ABH and a GBH of all school fights but they brought them up and tried to make me look like a bad person you know and I don't know they just brought up I don't know maybe like stuff about upbringing me being in care and stuff like that and it's fucked up how the barristers word things you know showed the jury look this is his character but this is where the bad part of his character is you know and they're not focusing on that you know what I mean they're the best at giving the fucking twisted vocabulary was that ever, was it? yeah it was murder my barista tried to get me a plea for manslaughter plea bargain but the prosecution said they will only take me and my co-defendant as a package on the manslaughter not one of us asking for manslaughter and everyone's still on the murder so that was a hard part in the trial as well cause I'm saying to my co-defendant let's just go for the manslaughter but he's saying listen I'm not taking nothing I'm going home as far as I'm concerned he was saying I didn't do nothing much I hit him a couple of times around his shoulder and his neck to get him off a tarot then I smashed his car so I'm standing there thinking fucking out yeah probably he's fucking all mean then innit? alright then whatever I do what you gotta do mate try and get your cell phone I'll try and get my cell phone so it's almost like a cutthroat trial between me and my co-defendant but it's the baristas that are doing the cutthroat and you see it's not us doing it in the trial it's the way the baristas are presenting our case as individuals and in my case my barista was saying look this young man was at home with his mrs. ain't seen his friend for a while now I know where his friend calls him asked him to assist him for a serious situation I'll give him that support it goes a bit too far and now I'm in the thick of it I think I have an intention to murder my man you know I'll just help him out my friend then his girlfriend so my co-defendants barista he's putting across the his case as well yeah it is a crime of a passion if you want to put it like that and he was led by his emotions so there might be some diminished responsibility in there yeah and these are the things that he done on the night so how this man ended up dying you just have to use your head members of the jury and it isn't hard to work out what are the witnesses saying 14 witnesses straggling road big high road on fringy park what are the witnesses saying seven of the witnesses are saying that the shorter one referring to me and my co-defendants are taller one the shorter one done most of the hitting and the taller one was smashing up the car seven of them are saying total madness they're saying that the guy was on the floor lying down flat you know and I'm hitting him while he's lying on the floor and the guy was never even lying on the floor you know and some of them are saying other things like the taller one done more hitting and the shorter one they don't know what the shorter one was doing so it was um it was hard watching the barristers go at it and I wasn't in a position you know when you're in court you can't just shout things out you have to make the process play itself out how it plays out and then you've got the judge's recommendations and then another hard thing about the trial was Tara wasn't in our trial she got a plea bargain for conspiracy to assault so she was all on the murder charge and Tara went down from the murder down to manslaughter they went put on and they realised that they couldn't even pin manslaughter on her because she never had no physical interaction with the guy for the assault happening on him so they gave her a conspiracy to assault because she possibly had a clue that there might be something kicking off but she didn't know it was going to go that far so they took her out of our trial and she was next door in another courtroom the jury are getting told this story about a girl who got raped but there's no girl in the physical form but the judge is directing them to believe that we were told this story this girl is real but she won't be part of this trial but they're still sending notes to the judge going are we going to hear from the girl that's how much I think it was important for her to say what happened to her and that maybe could have you know changed the decision with the jury maybe How was it going against your friend the guy who's asked you to be there so you're basically there to help him but yet he's kind of turned against each other yeah it was hard I was thinking like I said is it my fault but then I'm thinking it's not my fault you called me out of my ass so anything that happens after that it is kind of your responsibility isn't it well you called me out of my ass I come to support you I've hit the guy to get him off a target then he's trying to come for me and grab the battle for me normal now I defend myself if that's gone too far he's still all on you mate you know what I mean he sees your show booked me along to your show so what's going on there but it's just like he wanted to slide off on his own avenue you know what I mean and just but it ended up look they said right none of you are taking the manslaughter if both of you aren't taking the manslaughter then that's it you're both on the murder and that's it we're both convicted for murder How was it then when you get convicted when you got the was evidence all against you anyway did you know that you were going to get a guilty kind of yeah because they found the baseball backs the prints were on them they had witness statements the ID parade they picked us out and um that guy from the night the crack head guy I went to use the phone box you know his evidence was powerful for them you know because he should be sawed about he saw us you know playing faces and it was hard I was just thinking oh I don't get 25 you know because that's how all I know about life sentence is 25 to life 25 to life I feel like you hear it on the TV and stuff you know so I was just thinking oh I don't get 25 anything kind of that I could probably deal with it Did you ever get to say why you done it did that ever get used in court um my statement yeah got used up the statement my barrister put across for me got used in court yeah yeah I said my peace but obviously wasn't good enough what was has previous convictions the guy you killed right um I'm not sure of that because he was a illegal person in the country didn't have a passport to me in this country so but basically they want the character reference from him for that reason from this man's family yeah his closest family members so and they wanted somebody as well who could give evidence that they saw Tara come around to his house a few times yeah so I want to know whether this story that she was telling us was true so who better than his younger brother that was there on the occasions that Tara went around to the house to have this social gathering he was there with his friends apparently he gave evidence he was a young boy or probably about 16 at the time I would say well spoken you know well presented excuse me yeah he presented himself very well and um I thought he was going to paint a glowing picture of his brother my brother was a great guy you know I mean he's this he's that it's a shame he died but I was shocked James because he actually when he started speaking and telling the character of his brother he said that his brother used to go to fun but first of all he said yeah I remember Tara she would come around to the house a couple of times and I do remember the time they went in the bedroom or something like that yeah um then he was asked what kind of character was he was women in the public and he said oh well sometimes most of the time he used to try and go to fun fairs and things like that to pick up young really young girls and I told him stop doing that stop doing that that's not good and he wouldn't listen to me and he said oh he's got a lot of baby mothers as well yeah um for people don't know what baby mothers are that's he's got a lot of women pregnant basically all over the place and you know stuff like that so I was surprised to hear that and also with that when my girlfriend saw the murder would go up in the street she said to me that she knows that guy's face because he tried to rape her in the hairdressers about a year before she met me so I'm putting all of these things together in my head what my girlfriend said what his boyfriend what his brother said to edit that piece out I don't know about that um I think this guy about me you know in him even having a word of him the people that are most close to him all saying the same thing that he's been close to he got kind of close to my ex-girlfriend I was with at the time and tried to rape her and she didn't have no reason to say that about him you know um and his own brother his own flesh and blood telling Old Bailey that he's trying to pick up young girls underage girls from fanfares Serial beast Serial beast proper beast so it kind of gave me a nice faction of what I had done as in like because did you doubt it I did doubt myself yes I did 100% I doubted if maybe could she be lying but with what my ex-girlfriend said and what his brother said and it's sad to say that but you've still got to look at it at all angles of course you're lying in a cell you're thinking fuck what if I was wrong exactly but when you hear that then you go do you know what I'm saying he was a serial beast he's trying to pick up young girls he's raping women then it gives you a little bit of peace of mind do you know what I take a man's life like let's be honest because I love you love with you to the day you die like exactly did that give you a bit of satisfaction then if you did get a big sentence you could handle it a bit better yeah definitely I can hold my head up you know and be like well I know what I did you know what I mean was the right thing and the eyes of God and the eyes of society people in society ain't got the right mind some people in society will be like well you can do what you can rap no one's got the right to take his life and stuff like that and I'm not saying I had the right to take his life but that's just how the situation unfolded and that's how it happened that was his destiny that was his fate everybody knows the old saying live by the sword you die by the sword yeah you live by the gun you die by the gun so you know what I mean you live by fuckery and evilness you're probably gonna die a horrible way how does it feel to kill a man it's a strange feeling it's a strange feeling you wonder if you you got the curse of a killer you know if you're a godly man like myself you know what I mean I'm believing karma and stuff like that you know what I mean in the bible old testament and stuff like that I shall not this I shall not that you start thinking hold on a minute if I broke one of them but hold on a minute I'm on the right side of the line there I've stopped a monster attacking women so these rules and karmas in that apply to me so is it is it gonna come back for me what did I do the wrong thing so if I'm on the right side of the line I'm alright so it plays on my conscience it did play on my conscience for a long while but nowadays I'm alright you know um did you know what scent you were getting when you got a guilty no my barrister said to me it could be anything cut to 20 he said some in these situations they can give you natural life if they want to but it all depends on the judge depends on what he's had for breakfast or did he have breakfast you know did he get his leg over last night you know like what mood is he in and people kept saying that throughout the whole of my trial it depends what mood the judge is in I'm thinking fuck the judge it depends what the fucking jury is coming up with and what my barrister is doing isn't it judge can only go off of the law and quote the archibald and give direction and then obviously go by the archibald again and look at the maximum he can give and the minimum he can give and find somewhere fair in between give them individual circumstances you know yeah what was that feeling when you got your 12 was that a relief were you thinking fuck man I'm going to be locked in a cage for 12 years it was double edged you know it was relief and it was fucking out but it was relief it wasn't the 25 and it wasn't the natural life you know what I mean but it was fucking out what was it like your first night in prison it was shit man you know what I mean I thought raw this is the start of fucking many years to come man what the fuck man how am I going to deal with this tomorrow like when I come out of the soul because at the time I didn't really know who that guy was that intimately you know being from my area I'm thinking okay everyone knows everyone it's a small world fucking tiny country you know what I mean the jail system is even fucking smaller and if you are who you say you are Mr. bad man this that and the other you probably got a couple of bad man friends and stuff like that and then bad people who are in these places prison so fucking I've got to be ready for any kind that wants to come step to me and I'm going to be defending I killed a rapist mate say if you want to fucking come and fucking me for your rapist mate then I'm going to fucking end up dying in there isn't it so I'm coming out of my soul with that mentality fuck someone might try and come for me but I've got to be ready to take their life before they're trying to take mine see me you're inside there how hard is it to try and not go full-scale criminal full-scale bad man to then try and walk your way through your sentence and come out and try and then make something of your life did you think in there that you like you says walking out of that mentality I ain't fucking around man I'll kill again if somebody wants to put it on me did you have to begin with that mentality or did you try and work on yourself straight away you know what I had that mentality for a good I don't know man first of all for my sentence you know what I mean at the end when they start dangling and de-cat carrots in front of you you know what I mean they call it the system in it you need to switch off your system head and then start switching back on your road head and getting ready to go home your de-cat head you know what I mean so when you get a taste of de-cat now you realise yeah I've got to switch off my system head there's no one in there that's trying to stab man up or fight with man everyone's trying to go home everyone's trying to go to work from de-cat you know what I mean who's in there for a little fucking TDA or something like that you know what I mean where you can afford to be a dickhead and try and give you a bit of a look but you know who those guys are they're just trying to bait you to see you get kicked out with them so de-cat's a horrible place at the same time how were you treated and pleasant after your clean I was alright did you get respect for that yeah I did I got respect for everyone and yeah I got respect for that still but obviously prison is prison you've got always a dickhead somewhere that wants to try it with you you know what I mean yeah test you out you know what I mean try and see if they can get two stripes off you or something like that you know what I mean I've had my face a few scrapes in there you know what I mean with people but yeah it's just the fucking belly of the beast man how many prisons were there young a lot man probably about 15 or 17 altogether I think why so many because this started me off in Felton and had to get started up and then go to after Ellesbury I got started up I went Garchery and then from Garchery that I still be cat so then you're trying to get to see cats but what it is now I'm from London and they've sent me way out of the area these country far gels so it's far from my family to see me so while they're sending me through these system gels I'm always trying to get back closer to London to see my family so I'm doing sideways moves and then they want me to do a course or something like that and the gel that I'm in don't do the course so I gotta go somewhere else and then you hear about somewhere like a TC like um Dovegate half of the prison is like normal and I have half prison they do a therapeutic community so when you're halfway kind of through your sentence like my sentence was I said can I write from a C cat to get easy D cat what can I do to avoid all of these courses that are probably going to be trapped at me you hear about TC if you do a period on a therapeutic community the psychologists and the staff on there qualified to write you up a good report put it in front of the parol board you know and get a fast track to a D cat you know so you're trying all of these little tricks in the system to try and you know what I mean get to a D cat as fast as you can man so they come to the state in my sense they become a stage in my sentence where I had to switch off that aggressive know that defensiveness almost you know I mean that defense every day I come out on one defense mode you know I mean I'm not letting no one try and step on my toe or no one trying to take advantage of me you know I mean I have to meet people in there no same time yeah my life are but this is my house as well you know I do live here and I'm ready to stay here forever you know so don't take the piss what did you get you got one more year than me that there yeah you got one more year than me how's the relationship now I don't speak to him speak to him not allowed to speak to him part of the license condition do you hold a grudge against that um asking you to help him you know what how's that your mentality I don't you know I don't but what I do kind of still dislike is a decision the decision not to take the manslaughter could have been out years ago you know I mean it's almost like even I felt like the whole court wanted us both to take the manslaughter you know because they weren't left because I think in the trial if I'm right I am right as well you know they the jury wanted to know can they give one of us one they said can you give one manslaughter and one murder and stuff like that and I was like yes you know I mean it's working but it's half working isn't it why are they asking can we give one the other one you know I mean so they probably would have man because they knew they were intention to murder obviously because of the actions and the violence and the injuries yeah he's some manslaughter isn't it so there's no life license hanging over here you know I mean you've got to go through tons of shit you know I mean you can get out after what four five years or something like that you know I mean being a decap fucking after what for two years three years or something like that how was it been away from your mum your sisters as a protector that you are and always been there for me that was hard that was hard that was hard you know what one of the hardest things all together to do is that staying away from my family and um the distance as well that to travel to come and see me and sometimes I couldn't always come and see me you know I mean so um yeah that was hard man compared to time where I wouldn't even want to see them they'd ask why can't they send me no VO's am I right am I right I would say I was lying man because I just didn't want them to you know I mean travel that far enough to go away with the time and you know I mean and come and see the conditions I'm living in and you know I mean and seeing their emotion you know I mean break down and stuff like that I didn't want to deal with that man so I was just like cool man I just always phone them phone calls phone calls phone calls you know I mean yeah what was it like getting out for the first time after 12 years um it was good it was good it was good it was so good man um I was buzzing I was like I want to play this part as much as I could um yeah yeah it was good man it was good it was good yeah what do you think working back at it now that was a long time ago now what was it how many years 2003 it's probably about 18 that's 2000 yeah 2003 20 years ago 40-20 years ago yeah how does it feel talking about does it bring back a lot of emotion yeah it does you know it does and especially the way you've asked these questions as well it's different from what everyone else has asked me so yeah it's it does bring it back up man and like I said to you man there's probably certain things I would say to you you know what I mean differently you know I mean over a drink you know what I mean um but yeah bro fuck you now it's it's mad it's mad man but um I don't know my head thinking fuck you know man you know what I mean it was a it was a major changing point in my life you know what I mean why did it have to happen to me you know what I mean but if one's got their destiny if one's got their path they have to live and I reckon that was part of my path man maybe you know what I mean to help somebody and to make that sacrifice you know what I mean to help somebody you know what I mean it's a chunk of my life you know what I mean but does it replay in your mind or nightmares or think about it yeah yeah it does it does sometimes your flashbacks and stuff like that and screams anything nah not screams or anything like that it's more the violence that was happening that night and you know when people say things and when I hear certain lyrics in certain songs I'm like fuck you know that's too close to what you know what I mean I went through and stuff like that you know yeah when people make up songs and say stuff about baseball bats and this and that I'm thinking fuck you know man it's mad like sometimes I don't even want to hear that it's mad you know what I mean did you ever go and see a therapist or anything nah nah you know what none of that was ever offered to me after you know you know like that's it you send this get out and that's it you just got to go and sign into probation and they're fucking dribbling to send you back to jail if you put one foot wrong you know what I mean re-equal your ass quicker than they can say fucking re-equal but yeah man it's yeah it's mad how do you move on with your life now after doing a life do you think you can repair it or do you still struggle um I believe I can make a success in my life you know because I spent so much time in there on my music writing my music writing my lyrics so I rap and you can find all my music typing my name O-F-I-W-L and all the platforms whatever you can see my stuff and what I've been doing and you know I've done a project lately with one of the members of the fanatics his name's masterpiece he's done a lot of songs for people who are known in the industry and I'm just blessed that I got an opportunity you know what I mean to work with him and my other friends that are in the music industry you know and um yeah man I'm just pushing and pushing until I make a success on myself whether it's you know through the music or through you know I mean labouring or doing something else or I have to go back to university you know what I mean and start up a new course or career or a trade or something like that or a person that's a turban to win I don't want to fail because you're working newer yeah scaffolding how hard was it to get a job fuck you know it was hard man it was hard I was on the universal credit for a long time you know what I mean and they kept trying to set me up with interviews and stuff like that but then no one get back to me so the only places that would have somebody like me it's construction sacks but then you're going through an agency and stuff like that you know what I mean in the UTR number and the 20% tax and all this mad type of stuff that you know I mean I didn't even know about you know what I mean so then you realise wow what the agency is taking and what I'm working for you know what I mean it's better I work straight for the company and stuff like that so I'm trying to still find my way through to that you know but scaffolding is a bit more my thing because you can you know I mean earn certain cards or get certain cards and then you know your money goes up are you still out in license or is that yeah no my license is for life but apparently my probation worker is saying that they have reviews and obviously on these reviews they can up to suspend your license you know if you're doing well and stuff like that which I am right now so yeah how hard is that knowing if you put a foot wrong you could be doing a leaf again it's fucked man it's fucked it's like I'm under threat I feel like you know what I mean they're just waiting for me to put a foot wrong sometimes you know what I mean like an appointment or something like that or you know what I mean like how come you look can just chop me back in there so so easy and then it's just gonna take so long to get back at it it's out of order man I don't I don't like it I don't like it at all I can't wait to get rid of this this this this fucking thing hanging over my head man it's like a dark clown yeah does that make your kingdom hope not whole back in life but just be very skeptical who you speak to what you do yeah because one phone call to say he's doing this or doing that man you're fucked off I've had guys friends doing two or three years because girl friends are friends or somebody's said that they've carried a gun or they've done this name done fuck all breach of the peace man yeah finishing two or three years off yeah yeah it does make me feel like that I'm very selective with what I talk to you know I mean sometimes it makes me feel like I can't be myself with people and open and have as much fun as I couldn't be having I've got to be reserved because I've got this thing hanging over my head and I'm thinking why should I feel like that they've made me feel you know I mean like you're still in prison yeah like I'm still in prison and I'm a bad person that's how probation make me feel like you know like I'm a bad person you know I mean like I'm a threat to society they've got me down as high risk to the public I'm a high risk to the public then I just save some public members from getting raped but I'm a high risk to the public you know so you have to protect the public from me isn't it me who protected the public I don't know but the way they look is kind of fucked in it so that's how they make me feel when it like a racism kicks into play did you ever feel working through co-working through the system um how's that no I don't think so because it was a black man that was that died that was the rapist so I don't think it's racism but I think there is racism within the mapper you see they've got a thing called mapper and then you've got like the parole board and you've got the probation service I think there's institutionalized racism within that that comes out on to us the clients and I mean the service users they call us now it comes out in little bits and pieces you know what I mean they'll try and act like they're giving you something something decent like oh yeah yeah hope you're getting on well we're nowhere to help you but you know in the other hand they just got you know what I mean that big dagger they're waiting to stab you at any given time you know what I mean and sometimes they do things like that behind your back they'll write reports and put things in there that you didn't even expect to see because it's a probation officer giving their opinion on what they think is going through your head opinion it's not a fact it's just their opinion you know and then you just have to accept it because if you don't it's like you're challenging isn't it and then it's like oh well you're not ready for society yet you're not you know you're not conforming are you we're telling you to do this we're giving our professional vision you have to go along with it if you challenge it then obviously there's some problem then in your minister society you know iris so you're talking about you do rap now so working people you've said you can get your music but we get a new song or something coming out yeah I've got a new song called straight out the bottle coming out like I said I've done it with Masterpiece from the fanatics and shout out to my friend bez for the hookup our mutual friend you can get all my other music on youtube all the other platforms Spotify Apple everything just type in OFIWL and it will come up you'll get me you'll see all my music and all my stuff what about your youtube channel yeah the youtube channel is the same thing just OFIWL and it will bring you to my page and yeah you can see what I've done so far so far I've got I think three videos on there so this straight out the bottle one's gonna be the fourth and I believe this song here this is the one this is the one that's gonna go off man this is the one that people can party to forever forever really you know like when we're gone our children's children's children must still be partying to this one trust me watch out plans with the future then just press on with the music try and be successful try and work with some charities in my community you know like for the young usually with this all this young knife crime and all this madness the gang stuff that's going on I want to try and get involved in my community man and other communities and other projects and stuff like that and hopefully my influence you know what I mean on the younger generation you know what I mean bring some positivity you know what I mean and apart from that you know just be successful with my music try and build myself an independent business or something like that I don't even know I might even try and go into some sort of something like yourself doing you know talking me talking because I like talking to people about to do it for a long time but you know I can get on with most people for most walks of lives you know like I met a lot of different personalities that I can get on with and you know I don't mind talking you know I mean and give an advice I'm a good listener as well to people as well you know so yeah yeah the future's the future's bright good brother what was it was president you were in it's got to be full certain how come in Yorkshire just for the fact I went from Dovegate which was a decent I think it's half B cat RC cat and then I went from the TC so it's like yeah the on sweet shower on yourself you can be out all the time it's kind of comfy to double a cat and then you can't get out of there until you've done like a year and a half and then obviously in there it's just a different level of living to other prisons because there you see some real shit you know I mean that you hear about and see in movies you know you see people's face getting burnt off with oil and hot water and people getting stabbed cells getting burned out you see all sorts of men hanging theirself and you know I mean and in there it can even come to you I hadn't a little drama in there with that somewhere from Burningham and this was just so it started over music believe it or not you know what I mean and then I don't know people just get serious in there man you know what I mean people get fucking hot water sugar thrown in their face you think yourself automatically rotten that's not happening to me so what do I have to do to make sure that don't happen to me so I don't want to become a recluse and stay in my soul all the time I'm not that type of person I'm not staying in my soul like I'm scared to come out but I have to be more careful with who I talk to and who I banter with because that's how it starts off in there you know it can start off with a simple banter and there's a man who's not in the mood today he says shut up don't talk to me like that man you dickhead and then the next man's not a dickhead the next man says suck your mother you're talking to you're pussy or whatever that's it just simple as that people being in the wrong mood or a man playing his music too loud at night time man bang the wall boom boom boom hey turn it down trying to fucking sleep shut up alright see you in the morning hmm in the morning doors open woo woo woo woo woo it's going off simple as that and then obviously you got people that have got their rolled beefs and it ends up in the J because they're in the same wing of each other then you got the ganks get me at the burgers the journey's up there burger bar and Johnson ganks from Birmingham tough lot they back in Birmingham a lot the top bastards man yeah you got nottingham ganks up there as well best with the stay and other people waterfront and stuff like that and then you got you got the people from London Tottenham Hackney North West East London you know it goes off in there man you know what I mean you just start the gooch and stuff like that yeah some real shit in there that's where the real bad boys are did you have any friends to say than yourself you know what Wayland that Joe got out from in 2020 my next door tried to hang yourself but he was a troubled soul and he was in a bit of what he called spice but when he was offered a spice he was a nice brother and that he was a decent somebody to talk to and he was only in there for something stupid you know what I mean but the drugs had him in a way and then he was that type of guy he would get really lippy with the screws and they'd just try and put him behind his doors as quick as possible but he's self-harm you know you straight away you can see him in it the cussable down there wrist and stuff like that you know I mean even someone he's neck and stuff like that so um everyone on the ring got home with him he's that type of guy being like oh do you need any favours and and that for you know he's the type of guy you'd give a burn to all the time yeah nice one come on man I've got you man he's a cool guy you know what I mean he looked after himself you know what I mean he wasn't one of them people like oh you smoke spice and you're a tramp or something like that he was a decent boy but he had these little vices you know what I mean and he used to wish to ask the screws to let him out to clean and some of the screws that they would let him out and another screws wouldn't let him out but he needed to come out otherwise he would start trying to fucking arm himself in there so you know like it's certain screws that were just like seeing people in stress and in depression and willing to hurt themselves and in in wailing it was evil that they just left him and he saw pure times and he kept saying I'm gonna cut myself I'm gonna do this and that and he actually started cutting himself up and he tried to talk to him and then another day he tried to hang himself but the same screw that didn't want to let him out she's come opened his door took out a cut down knife tried to cut him down off of his ligature but her cut down knife's not working cause she's probably been using it for other things like cutting boxes or whatever blah blah blah and they're never supposed to use their cut down knife for anything else because it's supposed to use it once for that one time where that ligature you know what I mean might be so tough it could be made out of bedding or whatever you know what I mean it's material it's got to go through with no hesitation and she's there soaring at it it's not doing nothing I've shot him I've gone in a minute and I'm trying to hold his legs up and my mates trying to hold his fucking legs up and he's gone to the screw give me the fucking knife took it off of her and just put his strength to it and that's it popped him down and that fucking that ruined my head man I thought fuck man it's scary man you know what I mean seeing people that you know you know what I mean are friendly with I mean trying to kill themselves just because they're not coming out of there so clean that some people do have it hard in there man you know I've seen some shit man how did you end up in that bible that bible I did delinquent nation shot out to SP for that I'm from delinquent nation I think they noticed me from there and then they asked me to come on and I was like yeah why not I saw their thing I was like yeah why not man it's good for a promotion I'd say it's a mad story like any man in that position if they see that or hear that the first instance I'm going to kill that bastard because that's the worst thing ever is for any man to abuse a woman or a kid in your mind for me it's the worst of the worst like there's no going back from that so for you to take that man's life like that like I said at the start I don't really condone violence but for somebody to do that serial fucking beast like for me it's okay man like these people should be fucking hung these people should be if they're going to bring back killings and hangings because you get a 12 but yeah there's people out there that rape kids that get 2 and 3 years exactly they're the fucking justice so how do you move forward from all around kind of move on get your music out there and just try and live the rest of your life as happy as you can be is it difficult or do you get a lot of big plans yeah because obviously I think right now my plans are bigger than my pocket so obviously when my pocket can level up to my plans and I'm good to go but it's not all about the money though man for me I think it's just more about the determination you know just keep going at it what I'm trying to do you know get my music out there and eventually it will happen and people say you trust the process so that's what I'm doing I'm trying to trust the process right now and the process so far has brought me to yours you know what I mean life is good bro come on man for anybody that's watching bro for anybody that's in prison or trapped by a bad man like you weren't a bad man but you just could caught on some shit where you got a life sentence but what advice would you give for anybody um just stay strong focus you know what I mean if you know you got your date to come out that's your date to come out don't let no one or anything you know what I mean fuck up your head and take you off of your path to go home just do what you got to do stay focused yeah educate yourself while you're in there go Jim do what you can do yeah don't be a waste man you get me come out and make certain of yourself life life is nice out there and there's things that can happen that people will tell you nah that's hard that's hard it will take forever don't believe what anyone's got to say try out for yourself your own thing you need to finish your point anything else brother yeah um you can get me OFI double L all platforms um shout out to my friend your life shout out to MMT shout out to masterpiece and everyone that's worked with me so far 6 degree studios thank you James for having me on and um yeah that's me all filled the defender I'm out here out God bless you brother thank you james respect love